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We kick the ass of the ruling class

Regime Change In Oakland

Posted 2 years ago on Jan. 31, 2012, 8:58 a.m. EST by OccupyWallSt

police army

On Saturday, January 28, thousands of parents, families and engaged citizens gathered together to open a community center in the heart of downtown Oakland. The Police, under orders from Mayor Quan, responded to this peaceful demonstration of direct democracy and community building by arresting around 400 people. Hundreds more were injured when an army of officers marched on these unarmed families, raised their guns and fired bullets, tear gas canisters, smoke bombs, concussion grenades and other explosive devices into the crowd. Mayor Quan, on the same day as solidarity marches were organized by dozens of occupations across the nation, has called on the Occupy Movement to denounce Oakland’s show of bravery under fire and community strength. We stand with Oakland and call for the immediate resignation of Quan, who on Saturday made it clear that the state has abandoned democracy and joined the 1% in declaring war against the people.

Extreme economic injustice and true democracy can never co-exist. We have seen this violent truth before: in Pinochet’s Chile, 1990’s Russia, Suharto’s Indonesia. Four months ago, the Occupy Movement showed that this historical truth has finally come home: The economic oppression by the 1% has become so egregious that it cannot exist without destroying the spirit of the American democratic system. Across the country, people are rising up to demand a more just nation, and police brutality and state violence are the only things keeping this injustice in place. In Oakland, thousands of active community members chose to engage in true democracy by supporting the real and pressing needs of the people. The state, which supposedly represents these people, exercised extreme police brutality and violence to protect the 1%'s vacant assets. The explicit goal of the action was to build community—to open a desperately needed community center with a library, medical care, free education and emergency housing in a city that has suffered massive budget cuts, high unemployment rates and ravaged public schools. In response, the city government poured hundreds of thousands of dollars, bullets and canisters of tear gas into declaring open war on these parents, students, workers, artists, teachers, children and veterans. These people’s only offense was to believe so deeply in the American tradition of democracy, self-sufficiency, and sacrifice for the next generation that they were willing to put their bodies on the line to make this nation the empowering democracy that we know it can be.

On Saturday, Mayor Quan's actions again demonstrated that open war has been declared on the spirit of democracy and the people of Oakland and this nation. We call for the end of Mayor Quan's administration and a regime change in Oakland. We continue to stand in solidarity with Occupy Oakland and will support them as they continue peaceful protest and community building until this and all other authoritarian administrations have been ousted from their place of illegitimate power. Together, we are building a stronger world, a stronger community, a stronger promise for the next generation.

438 Comments

438 Comments


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[-] 17 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

This movement will never be over until we stop the economic oppression by the One Percent.

[-] 3 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 2 years ago

"This movement will never be over until we stop the economic oppression by the One Percent."

That's the bottom line.

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[-] 3 points by soxin8 (9) from Rocky Hill, CT 2 years ago

Is anyone in OWS interested in FBI and police oppression with media coverup? The story can only be found with a search for "New police weapon against homeless" and "Historic coverup of FBI and police crimes currently taking place".

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

That oppression will end only when we refuse to cooperate with it. Every dollar we spend buying the 1%'s products allows it to continue.

[-] 1 points by russman (8) 2 years ago

The bottom line is, how can you win when you are doing nothing about being beaten, tear-gassed, tasered and arrested?

[-] 3 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

There are two paths to follow 1) Peaceful like Ghandi or King and 2) Violent like the American Revolution. The former is the more desirable, as the latter is captured in the media as images of mob violence (regardless of the nobility of opinion that led to it). If violence is the only way, then be prepared to go ALL the way. Invest in Kevlar and football/motorcycle helmets. Make sure all of your shotguns, rifles, and pistols are in good working order with lots of ammo available. Enlist former military vets who are sympathetic to the cause to provide strategy and tactics. In short, use the 2nd Amendment to its fullest purpose.

I do NOT advocate violence to achieve social change. If Occupy decides that violence is the only way, then everyone better be DAMN SURE they understand what that means. I'm not sure that the youth that makes up a large part of the Occupy demographic does. Armed citizens going up against state militias and the US military stand NO chance in armed conflict. Oh yes, it would send a profound message around the world and promote domestic and world-wide socio/economic instability. Does Occupy think that's worth it?

Carefully think this through. Peaceful protest is the only way to go. Violent armed revolts are designed to topple entire governments. Occupy is trying to change a corrupt economic system. That is much, much different than another Civil War.

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Might I add one greater fact. A limited number of armed citizens going up against a multitide of other armed citizens stand NO chance in armed conflict.

You sure have a way of ignoring reality if you think that your fellow citizen's are going to sit around while you have your way with other citizens including police, other's property, and other people in this great land.

Carefully is not really the caution needed - it should be - are you really willing to give up all of your freedoms and possibly your life for an attempt to change, on your own terms, something that you have defined on your own terms, at places chosen on your own terms.

So far, all that OWS has done has been borderline - FUN. Camping out, taunting Police, eating without producing or even cooking etc. Man who, wouldn't want the life, you guys promote. I can tell you who would not - your fellow citizen's who have worked their way to where they are, paying bills, holding on when times were tough, raising their children, etc.

[-] 1 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

By the way you responded, I can't really tell if we agree or disagree. I was responding to russman who seemed to be implying that police violence should be met with Occupy violence. I am NOT in favor of violence regarding Occupy's methods/strategy/tactics. Perhaps I did not convey that clearly enough.

Do we have a meeting of minds or no?

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

I am also NOT in favor of the voilent approach. We sure do have a meeting of the minds.

What I was trying to express, was the fact that OWS has already pretty much established itself as an organization that holds violence as one precept akin to a right that they have. This takes many forms, from physical violence, verbal violence, mental violence, etc.

What I was saying is basically this. Whereas the police may not be within it's authority to stop OWS from interrupting a dinner meeting, shouting and generally being activities to a hault - at some point, the fellow citizen's of this country will get so fed up with these tactics that shoving a large wad of cotton down a protestors throat may become what we see as "freedom from speech". The Police will not be involved. This juvenile approach to protest is not really what the majority of us are seeing - we are seeing a bunch of kids trying to take over the classroom and it will be stopped, even if the Principal has to be called (if you know what I mean).

[-] 1 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

Interesting response. I don't think I can agree on your gradations of violence and must part company with you there. People in a free society have the right to express themselves verbally and in writing thanks to the 1st Amendment. That free expression can take many forms and can be expressed in many styles ranging from extremely subtle and sublime to over-the-top outrageousness that includes advocating physical violence (e.g. Insighting riots or revolution).

Yes, these "kids" as you call them are very idealistic. Most young people are. That doesn't mean that they are necessarily wrong. Most social change comes from the idealistic side of the spectrum. Old people (like me) have usually resigned themselves to the ways of the world and have given up and gotten comfortable with the status quo (I happen to not be one of them). Those people are called Conservatives.

The world has an awful lot wrong with it and, after a few moments reflection on your part, I'm sure you would agree. These "kids" are just trying to change it, improve it, if they can. That's all.

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

There are many ways to change any issue or "wrong" in society. This is relected in longevity of any correction rather than the fact that it is done.

If my bank makes an error and I lose $5.00 as a result, starting at the top with over-the-top outrageourness reaction simply brands me as an idiot acting like a kid. "A spoiled brat, if you will"

There are not only graduations of appropriate response in relation to the "outrage" but also to the status of the individual or group making the response. OWS simply way overextended their status as a group based on their overblown ego approach to problems. There was absolutely no credibility established between who they were-who they represented and their way out of line approach to taking on the countries totality of problems. (this was, in other words, a bunch of unknowns taking on the country with every major and petty complaint that they could think about.

And this brings us to the last paragraph, I agree that the world has a n awful lot wrong with it. Some of these are new problems and some are as old as time itself.

I, for the most part, and a conservative in most areas of my beliefs. That is not because I am old and have resigned myself to the ways of the world and given up but is based on the belief that some things deserve my efforts to change and some do not. I happen to NOT want to change all alcoholics, though I would like to see it happen. I do not intend to yell for change and then send in a bunch of ill trained, ill prepared kids to do the change while giving them freedom to determine how that change should be brought about.

I see the most effective change coming from my conservative views being exercised quietly in my community. I borrow money from a very strong independent bank where I can walk into the loan officer's office and we know each other by name. He is up front with what they can do in relation to what I want to do - and basically we KEEP each other conservative in our approaches to business.. This is not being comfortable with the status quo at all - it is being comfortable with making investments in my business which serves others on a sound financial basis and keeps me from doing stupid things.

To me, a conservative is not a lazy laid back, I give up person but rather one who exercises an approach to life that can be described as conservative, if terms must be used of describe such.

You may label me and my approach to life as you wish. If being a conservative means that I am independent, have never even come close to delaring bankruptcy, always pay my debts, give a significant per cent of my income to organizations helping my fellow man, have a sound belief system, have a family that I am proud of and that I support in any way that I can, believe in the rights of everyone to those freedoms which are God given and are outlined in our Consititution, then I am a conservative.

This has not kept me any box at all. I have been in education for all my life. Our classrooms where geared towards individualized instruction, team teaching, open classrooms, emphasis on reading and learning, and all the other "progressive" education methods long before it was popular to read a book to find out how to teach. This old conservative also saw the time when 100% of our students met state standards for graduation in one what most would call the most challenging situations in the country.

To me, this is what a "conservative" does and you will only find out about it after it happens. ONLY a train blows its whistle and then takes off.

[-] 1 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

Well, at least I feel like I understand you better.

My use of the terms "Conservative" or "Liberal" is always in the strictest dictionary definition. For example, Dictionary.com defines "Conservative" as:

Definition of conservative: in favor of preserving existing conditions.

And defines "Liberal" as:

Definition of liberal: favoring political reform and progressive government.

I couldn't copy/paste all of the definitions with my iPad, but if you go to Dictionary.com and look up those two terms, you will see many definitions and they all say just about the same thing.

You seem to have gone into a great amount of detail describing what Conservatism or being a Conservative means to you personally. That is your right, and I will not dispute it. But having conversations in which the terms Liberal and Conservative are widely understood to mean one thing while you advocate they mean something else entirely different, only leads to confusion.

I don't know if we can come to any consensus on things (not that we necessarily should) if we cannot even agree on the most basic definitions surrounding the core discussion. I always go to the standard source for words i.e. the dictionary. This puts people on a common ground for their discussions instead of a confused state about what the other person might be talking about.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

I really don't think that you can take people and divide them into just two catagories.

What is wrong with preserving existing conditions? What is wrong with favoring political reform and jprogressive goverment.

Maybe existing conditions do not need to be changed or maybe they do. Maybe political reform and progressive government are not needed or maybe they are.

In my opinion, to simply jump into one catagory and say that it has to be done in that way in all areas of your lives or the lives of others is simply to deny the truth that MAYBE is does not have to be that way.

If you are a progressive, that is fine with me. But I would be more interested in what are you progressive in. Perhaps to me progressive would be taking off your clothes and running up and down the interstate. Perhaps to you conservative would be saying NO to everything.

I just don't see the 100% pure definition applying to most people. There are too many interactive areas now to confine these terms to only one area of life - politics. As an example - look at education, politics, funding etc involves not only education but a big part of government. What is wrong with being a liberal in the educational area but a conservative in the funding and governmental intervention area.

Gotta go - back to work thing - you know.

[-] 1 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

I agree that there are few things in the political arena that are pure black or white, but I do believe that people have operating principles that they adhere to that tends to put them in a limited number of camps and, in this country, that has resulted in the two-party system. While there are other parties out there, they have never been influential to any great degree except to split the other two major parties and impact elections from time to time (e.g. Ross Perot...remember him?). So, looking at the BIG picture, people are pretty much divided into two camps in this country.

Since you asked, my most basic operating principle can be summed up in the old phrase "The greatest good for the greatest number". I think this certainly qualifies as progressive. Occupy has arisen because the wealth disparity and blatant disregard for the large majority views of the common man/woman in this country adheres more to the principle of "The greatest good for the smallest number".

And that violates my innate sense of fair play. I'm not saying that the world owes anyone anything. But in a country as technologically advanced and as wealthy as ours, I just have a hard time dealing with all the disparity and a system that doesn't promote an opportunity for a more level playing field, so that people are not on the street or barely getting by while others are living far beyond what is required for basic survival. If people were happy, Occupy would have never arisen. But people are not happy, and the movement has spread not just in this country, but around the world.

By the way, Wikipedia indicates that the average age of OWS participants is 33, with many of them in their 40s (and maybe older). So this doesn't necessarily mean they are all a bunch of "kids". You should check out some of the live webcam feeds around the country/world. I think you might get a different impression of the demographic.

PS -- I am 56.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

One up - almost 70 here and trying not to act like a kid. My grandkids do a good job of that.

Really, we may be talking about a lot of the same ideas but from a totally different perspective. I find your posts to be more directed at the world, the BIG picture, the greatest number and so forth.

My thoughts, you will note, are more concerned with the local, the here and now, the smaller group and individual approach. That you will find is probably one of the distinguishing factors between the liberal and the conservative viewpoints. Not that we might not be working towards the same end product, that we approach from totally polar oposite directions.

My belief is that if you do not have invidual committment and initiative, you simply have to force adherence to whatever things are being strived for. I see this in OWS and other similiar groups that are out to save us from ourselves. I have no problem with someone pointing out the problems, what I have a problem with is someone also saying that not only is it a problem, but I magically have the solution, follow me and I will prove it.

Our two-party system is more one of saying this is X and the other side saying this is Y regarding the same problem. Thus we have very limited possibilities for doing much at all because is now becomes a situation of a limited number of identified problems and each choosing to take either a yea or nea side. We see this playing out in the current situation with Congress, the Presidency etc. "If you are for it, I have to be against it".

I really cannot live with the "greatest good for the greatest number" at all. We are seeing this in play today. Look at our social programs and you will see that basically, to be included in the "good" we force people to move into the greatest number catagory.

If the greatest good is determined to be ten years of unemployment, who will show movement - a lot of people who chose to move into the catagory of the "greatest number". These two things will always balance out. The more you increase the greatest good - the more you will increase the greatest number.

This may work well for meeting sever and instant needs, but once we move beyond that point, look at what happens. If you want to play with this a little more - take a loaf of stale bread to the park and throw out one piece to the pigeon. Soon your greatest good will swell and you will be throwing out multiple slices. This does NOT stop until all the pigeons in the park are at your feet.

Look at the unemployement program today. Why do I see people not working, not accepting jobs that pay a little less than their prior one or are not "up to their standards". Why do I see food stamps (cards) being traded around like cash and being used by people making more than I do.

If this is what you mean by the greatest good for the greatest number, we are being played as taxpayer fools.

I recognize that we have a disparity between the rich and the poor, that has always been and will always be. You only have to look at the prime examples of the "level paying field" offered by the former Russia and China to see this DOES not work very well. All they managed to do and are now doing was to extend both ends of the scale.

American has reached this point also. Both ends and especially the "rich" end have moved. However, our social programs has come into play in their probably ignorant approach which simply creates a level playing field at the "poor" end and continues to level out more territory as it moves into the middle class. Soon we will have met our goal of having a level playing field for the 99% and the 1% will move even further ahead.

The housing market is moving this direction even as we are talking. Let's just level it out, an one should lose their homes, bail out the 99% and even it all out.

This will result in a very dramatic effect on the top 50% of the 99% in that they will be crowded down into the bottom 50% but hey - we will have leveled out the playing field. And in the meantime, the 1% will just add on another garage and buy another sports car. You see, they have a level playing field too.

[-] 1 points by Pehrbl (1) 2 years ago

Haha you are very funny Ronjj. But I would hope that you agree that there is a difference between the top 1% having an average income of 10 times the average working man/woman or 50 times.

If you want examples of countries where a more equal income distribution works just fine look at Sweden, Finland, Denmark or Norway. We do not have any problems with creating successful global companies even thou we have a robin hood inspired tax system.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Of course there is a difference between the top 1% etc. That difference exists first in the very statistics that you quote. In the second place, what the hell difference does that make in the larger scheme of things and why all the self-inflicted anguish over it.

Exactly what is the point of this staistic and how it relates to anything. Does it mean that you cannot have what you need by working for it. Does it mean that it was taken somehow from you. Just how do YOU fit into this picture.

I am well aware of the examples that you make reference. My reply is SO WHAT. If those countries have decided that their more equal income istribution works just fine for them, what is your point. I can point to countries that are pure dictatorships and say that ":they have decided that their form of income distribution works just fine for them". Whether in actuality, these are accepted by all or not, is not even being considered.

I can also show you a a forest that consists of one parent tree that covers hundreds of acres and has a great distibution system, buy exactly what would be my point - if you can point to one individual oak tree that does the same thing.

Is this any more than a discussion of what exists in different locations around the world.

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Hide and watch, and you will see!

(said the blindman, LoL)

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[-] 0 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

There are more effective things to do than vandalism and throwing stuff back at the police. That isn't going to help keep anyone safe anyway. To the contrary, it will most likely increase the police violence level.

I do not know why this action was done after sundown. I think that was a big mistake. You need daylight and lots of people with cameras. Video combined with non-violence on the part of the protestors will make the excessive force of the police crystal clear. Footage of brutality will win the sympathies of the public. Non-violence from the protestors clearly shows the force of the police to be unjustifiable.

In addition to getting that footage on the internet, anyone who was brutalized, files a Section 1983 lawsuit against the police officers involved and the city.

[-] 1 points by huevosrancheros (21) 2 years ago

There are definitely "more effective things to do than vandalism etc..." Non-violent direct action needs to be sustained so that the movement can get a foothold within the masses. Working people in America are not ready for the barricades. The Oakland warriors are indeed heroic for confronting a seasoned police force bent on brutalizing those who may show the way out of fear and into liberation. But the primary tactic for now should be non-violent confrontation.

[-] 0 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

I love huevos rancheros. Good user name. Now I'm hungry.

[-] 1 points by justone (7) 2 years ago

"I do not know why this action was done after sundown."

What reality are you living in? How could you comment on this article without seeing the first image at the top of the page depicting riot cops shooting protesters in broad daylight? The action began at noon.

[-] 1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

No need to get rude about it. True, I did not know that the action began at noon. That's because I saw the news posted here early in the evening and turned to the livestream where the protestors were clearly just then moving in. Now i realize that was their second attempt after having failed earlier in the day.

http://occupyoakland.org/2012/01/march-to-civic-auditorium-met-by-police-regrouping-at-oscar-grant-plaza/

It would have been safer for the protestors to regroup and try again another day rather than begin attempt two after dark.

Or maybe your question isn't really a question?

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[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Let's go back to 1650 - North America.

Now if you will, give me one date when there was not the opportunity to point to economic oppression by the one percent as you choose to define it and apply it today.

Just one specific date, please.

Can you also please give me one date when the 99% did not have within that group, economic depression, regardless of whether the 1% were involved or not. Just one specific date, please.

These two dates, will provide the evidence to me that you know what you are talking about.

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

What's your point master?

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[-] 1 points by NRNS (13) from Milwaukee, WI 2 years ago

You just proved OWS's point, being that this crappy way of society has been entrenched for hundreds of years, providing a great life for few and a terrible life for many. Thanks for clarifying that for yourself and others.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Thank you for letting me more than adequately prove YOUR and OWS's point.

If that is all the proof you need. Why don't you just go outside now, and self-inflict some more crappy conclusions upon your self.

[-] 1 points by NRNS (13) from Milwaukee, WI 2 years ago

I rest my case...

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[-] 11 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I am proud of you all, and I love your DEFIANCE of the corrupted political system that we all live in. Not until this becomes a just country and Lloyd Blankfein, and all his cohorts are in jail should we stop. SOLIDARITY

[-] 5 points by BystanderDC (91) 2 years ago

You are proud of rioting, vandalism, destruction of public property, assault? SMH. Seriously learn a page from OccupyDC. A Tent of Dreams went up. No rioting. No destruction.

Today's GA decide that if the police want to remove it there would generally be no resistance. Wow Oakland way to lead and be an example for other Occupy Movements.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

What about the tear gas canisters, the flash grenades, the rubber bullets. These projectiles were fired at people, even families. Is this kind of brutality acceptable. Doesn't the OPD have a long history of using these violent tactics? If all this goes on in front of cameras, what happens inside when they are not being scrutinized? Is this Gestapo-like PD something that we should become accustom to?

I truly hope that we can achieve our goals in a non-violent way and I will adhere to that principle, but I can understand the protesters anger.

In order to understand the anger out there, maybe we should ask: How many children are there living in the tent cities tonight; how many others have became drug addicts or alcoholics in their despair at never being able to have the chance to get a good job; how many fragile older people expired because of the anguish of having lost everything; how many people will catch pneumonia this winter from sleeping in their car? There are many more questions, but can you give me those answers, and if you did have those statistics..... would you really be able to feel their pain? I doubt it. Final question: How much respect should we have for the corrupt system that caused all this pain?

I appreciate everything that you are doing BDC at OccupyDC. I love you optimism and respect the time and effort that you are putting in there. I urge you to have fun, make good friends there, and be there for each other when times get tough, which undoubtedly they will. You are yet another example of a young person in this movement that realizes that some things in life are worth fighting for. The young generation has my kudos for waking the rest of us up, and giving us all hope. What you are doing in DC truly is an invaluble part of this movement, and I too wish it could all be like that, but it isn't and it won't be, and we should both be able to understand why.

[-] 4 points by TheIllusionCalledMoney (56) 2 years ago

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” -Gandhi

We are now in Phase 3, moving forward right on schedule ....

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

What is Phase 3? Moving forward right on schedule? What schedule is that? I must have missed that memo. Please, fill me in.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

OK, let's go over them all. Phase 1 - First they ignore you, 2 - Then they laugh at you, 3 - Then they fight you, 4 - Then you win. The fifth phase is not really one of the phases. I just made it to be, Gandhi said, "Be the change you wish to see in the world." If we are not already doing this in our daily lives, we should start practicing it on this forum as people get fairly nasty with each other here. When asked about western culture he said, "I think it would be a good idea." One more quote from him, "Happines is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony." I'm still working on that one myself and expect that I will be the rest of my life.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I know that saying, and I hope you are right. I just hope for everyone's sake that this is the shortest phase. Did you read BGB's posts. He's got his shit together. The fifth phase is the hardest...be the change you wish to see in the world.

[-] 2 points by TheIllusionCalledMoney (56) 2 years ago

Yes, well written posts. I'll tell you this. Personally speaking, if this phase goes on for another 10 years (which of course I don't believe it will), I still wouldn't trade it for anything in the world to go back to sleep in the illusionary matrix most of us call the real world. . .

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Thanks, No, I won't to go back there either, and the many young people that I have talked to in my once a week journeys to NY are equally as determined. Have you ever seen that Chris Hedges interview on CSpan? It's 3 hours, but it is well worth it. Google his name and 'Brace Yourself.' One question from a call-in was, what can an old dispensable guy like me do to ensure my granddaughter grows up in a better world. In closing, The world is burning, and everyone was watching the Florida primaries.

[-] 1 points by TheIllusionCalledMoney (56) 2 years ago

Yes, I've seen that interview with Chris. He's phenomenal.

I'm working on another idea to help move the transition forward. I'm building a machine that I hope can capture the "worship energy" from those locked into the Matrix, those fanatics who would rather see the world burn than miss an episode of American Idol, Jersey Shore, etc.and redirect it to positive change for the world.

Maybe I can test it out this Super Bowl Sunday in NYC. That event alone should provide enough worship energy to do it. I'll let you know how I progress . . .

[-] 1 points by proudofOKC (361) 2 years ago

I know! I've always felt so alone because the people around me a like "Whoa, TV!" and I'm like "Whoa, a Cherokee language school in Dell City was granted charter status!"

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

You mentioned the show Jersey shore. One of the things that is most refreshing about a Jerseyite compared to most other people living elsewhere is that they do not try to defend their state. Do not disparage Springsteen though. They know that it is indefensible. The show JS does not accurately depict the JS, as it is actually much worse.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Ok..I'm a little confused to exactly what you are going to do though.

[-] 1 points by TheIllusionCalledMoney (56) 2 years ago

I was being facetious. . .

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Probably bed time for me.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

What is Phase 3 and Phase 5? I didn't know there was a schedule with Phases.

[-] 1 points by proudofOKC (361) 2 years ago

Can you link to the posts you mentioned? I'd like to read them.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Thought I did this. Google Chris Hedges Brace Youself. That will get you there.

[-] 1 points by proudofOKC (361) 2 years ago

Thank you!

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

let me kinow if you think it was worth it, ok . I already know the answer though.

[-] 1 points by proudofOKC (361) 2 years ago

It was! :-)

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Good, I know that I got a lot of good insights from it. Mr. Hedges has spoken at Zuccotti Park, and has been arrested for peaceful civil disobedience at Wall St. I want to have a memorable 60th birthday, so I was thinking about taking his advice on what an old dispensable guy like me can do to see that his grandchildren grow up in a better world. I have been putting pressure on a young friend (who is involved in setting up legal defense and bailing people out) to buy me a bagel with cream cheese, Alaska salmon, capers, and red onions on the morning or afternoon I get out. She agreed....I think....heeee

[-] 1 points by proudofOKC (361) 2 years ago

Wow! That's fantastic. You come from a generation that witnessed so many things. My parents are the same age as you, and members of the struggling lower middle class. My father's birthday was drawn in the lottery on TV to see who would be forced to go Vietnam and kill. How ludicrous! In this "great, democratic, peaceful" nation! The best on Earth! Yet we have been involved in one war after another, nonstop; every American generation gets its war. I feel like the nation around me is directly quoting George Orwell's 1984 sometimes. Thank you for still believing in us after everything you have seen.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yes, I still remember my number (272) from that draft. Anything over 150, you were fairly safe. A good friend of mine also had a high number. That night we went out to celebrate, but I don't remember much after that. Unfortunately, some of our generation forgot the ideals of those times, and others like me to an extent simply fell asleep at the wheel. I'm HERE to make amends for the latter. I suspect that you are here because your dad like me raised you to believe that some things in life are woth fighting for. If so, kudos to him. On a side note, have you ever eaten or worked at Arthur Bryant's BBQ

[-] 2 points by proudofOKC (361) 2 years ago

For some reason the site won't let me respond to your latest post below, so I will respond here. Yes, to everything you have said, and thank you for taking the time to tell me. I am from Oklahoma City but I too believe this movement will not die as long as social media keeps showing even the smallest group being active. We might go inside for the winter and come back in the spring, we might stop to raise money for bail before the next protest, then so be it. I won't stop working and doing what I can think of to help, and I know you won't either! Solidarity.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

There are many teach-ins going on in NYC and they are often taught by professors from local universities like Fordham, NYU, and Columbia. Anyway this is a good time to start learning or continue learning about the circumstances that caused the 2008 melt-down and all the human misery that followed. You should know about the Glass Steagall Act (that's paramont) and it being repealed in 1999 on the twelth try (and billions of donated campaign dollars/BRIBES) over the years. Only after that was repealed could all of this happen. Two good docs to see are Inside Job (a must) and The Warning. Also Ghandhi is another good one. Our library had them here.

I urge you to start reaching out to the timid too, and remind them that this is not about liberal versus conservative, it is about right versus wrong.. Look to things that people can relate too also. For instance, in your neck of the woods farming issues are quite important, and I know that many of the laws are written in favor of corporate farms and to the detriment of the family farmers. Then there's Monsanto which I do not know much about other than they are not held in high regard. You should become an expert in this, and you should teach each other so you all understand. I also remember two farmers who I met at Zuccotti Park that were from the mid-west, (which I couldn't believe that they had come from so far away) who were complaining about all this. It should be your mission to reach out to these people who know our country is going in the wrong direction. It is also important how you frame your questions or your arguments to the different people who are affected in different ways from our corrupt political/financial system. The basic theme though is we want to have a government that answers to people's interests first, and not to corporate and banker's interests at our expense. Our message is about 'hope', so stay on the high ground, even if the person does not agree with you and is impolite in doing so.

Corporate-owned news media, which is not covering the discontent in this country is becoming irrelevant as people realize that the truth does not come out on this or on other issues either. Very fortunately we have social media to take its place.

OK here is the dad coming out in me. Peaceful civil disobedience yes, anything else no. Remember you have a future hence you do not need a criminal record..Also see if the NLG has a chapter in your area and contact them first. That's it.

[-] 2 points by proudofOKC (361) 2 years ago

That is something that a lot of people have been saying these days about the hippie generation- that they fell asleep at the wheel and did not follow through with the purpose behind so many of the protests. If they had, we would be living in a completely different country. At the same time, you can't really blame someone for wanting to settle down and work their plot of land, per se. After all, a life devoted to the people in protesting, getting arrested, constantly organizing events and attending hearings and circulating petitions- isn't a life in which one can expect to start a family. However, my generation was raised in such an environment of apathy that we are seeing how hard it is to mobilize us. We have to resort to a slue of methods that involve the internet more intimately, because my generation will not get out in the streets but it will follow something on a smart phone. We need to make use of that. Arthur Bryant's BBQ, haven't heard of it, is it in OKC?

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yes, I was remarkably naieve during the years when my main purpose in life became raising three daughters, keeping a roof over their heads, and food on the table. Perhaps my generation can get a pass for our inattentiveness to what was going on this country during those years, but we should not be totally absolved. At least we can take some credit for the values that we instilled on the younger generation who have inspired the Occupy movement.

While you might not see your generation out in the streets in KC, they are out in NYC in the multitudes, and in many other places. I know because I have almost been arrested (for peaceful civil disobedience) alongside many of them. I suspect that this summer will be a particularly 'hot' one too, and you may see it in KC as well then.

OWS has taken on a multi-generational appearance more and more as there are many other people my age and older who have become involved in it. There are little old ladies knitting hats, scarves for occupiers, and bringing plates of lasagna to them. Other people have transferred their money from banks to credit unions; paid off their credit cards; some stuff junk mail in their credit card offer envelopes and send them back with a nasty litttle note in there; other mostly young people continue to defiantly occupy, and in DC are building a tent of dreams, whatever that is; unfortunately, then there is Oakland, while you cannot make excuses for them, you do have to remember the pain that some of these people have suffered for years, some of it at the hands of what is probably the most corrupt and brutal PD in the country. Except for Oakland, all this is very heartening to see, and all of these fronts combined and more I'm sure have made the occupy movement much harder to squash.

Yes, my view of your generation was that is was mostly apathetic, although I did not raise my kids in such a way. One daughter in AK, is very involved in animal rights, another in VT is always helping people who have fallen on hard times, and yet another in AK is a public defender who has stated that she would never work for corporate America, despite easily being able to do so as she graduated magna cum laude from Fordham, and in the top 10% of her class at VT law school.

I don't hink that I have told this story on this thread, but you do kind of lose it over 50. heee Anyway, I remember reading about a political science professor in Cairo who said, "If you were to tell me five years ago that this would be the generation that brought democracy to Egypt, I would have laughed." Me too, about what your generation has inspired, and both of these were greatly made possibe by social media. I am glad too we were both wrong too.

I will close this out by saying that I have gotten fairly close to the core of this movement, by luck mostly. My role because of my talents, or lack of them as the case may be, is mostly letting them know how things are "playing in Peoria", or on main street amongst older more conservative Americans. Anyway, I can tell you that these mostly young people are very bright, some of whom have graduated from some of the best universities in the country/world, they are very organized, they nwork very hard at this, and they are very, very determined. I can assure you that life will never go back to the way it was, and still is.

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[-] 0 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

So you want to start a rivalry between Occupy movements? Could anything OO could have done warrant those troops??

[-] 8 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Let's not start fighting amongst each other. Things in one city are not what they are in another. So be it.

[-] 4 points by BystanderDC (91) 2 years ago

Fair enough. But this type of behavior only turns the public further away. Nobody wants to live in fear of riots and violence. This is why the OccupyDC has never messed with the Metro. It would cause mass chaos and turn any sympathetic DMV citizen against the movement.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yes, I'm in complete agreement with you here. Perhaps it's time for those who intend to make non-violence a fundamental tennet of this movement to simply split split from those who won't.

[-] 3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

easier said than done

the violent want to be part of the movement also

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yeah, I know. I think we are comming to a crossroads.

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[-] -3 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

That's my point. He seems to be a troll.

[-] 2 points by BystanderDC (91) 2 years ago

So anyone who speaks their mind is a troll? Seriously? It's people like you who try to squelch free speech at GAs who turn people off to the movement. I guess in your mind if people don't think exactly like you then they must be trolls. SMH.

[-] -2 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

So I can't speak my mind? I have to do what you like? Who gave you the right to make the rules? You are turning my stomach and that turns me off, and makes others know you're only, in your mind, not mine or his or hers, or even in the front row at that last GA meeting, great donuts BTW! AND I used to have celiac!

[-] 1 points by RebelRebel (25) 2 years ago

You are the one who threw out the troll word. Everyone has the right to disagree. But just because they don't see eye to eye with you doesn't make them a troll.

[-] 0 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Seriously dude, I AM so broadminded, if you can't see "eye to eye" with me, you're trouble.

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[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yes, I can't possibly keep track of them, and I am tired.

[-] -1 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

What's all this noise about wearing black and fighting back and anarchy?

[-] 1 points by Revolutionary (267) 2 years ago

Over here in Kashmir protesters pick up the tear gas canisters carefully with glows under which lies a small steel plate/strip to throw that back on the cops .People use anything to hide their identity.

[-] 1 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

We love you for that. Keep up the good work. Let's look forward to joining hands around the world.

The US or as we call it, America, is not supposed to be a place where we have to use such tactics just to protest. Things have gone very wrong. We don't even realize it. As Occupy goes along, more and more problems emerge for the Occupy Movement and America to address.

[-] 2 points by Revolutionary (267) 2 years ago

You do not know that you are succeeding every new day defeating the evil!

[-] 0 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

It is good to hear that.

[-] 1 points by Revolutionary (267) 2 years ago

You are caught a way which can only lead to what?Only to success.

[-] 1 points by proudofOKC (361) 2 years ago

The risk there is that then the cops will start firing live rounds and kill people.

[-] 2 points by Revolutionary (267) 2 years ago

Believe me the American Government is extremely afraid of you I mean Your success I mean your philosophy/Idea.

[-] 0 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Self-destructive madness. What else is new?

[-] 0 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Self? Whose self?

[-] 3 points by Bighead1883 (285) 2 years ago

Be at peace JIFFYSQUID92.a very small statured man in India fronted the might of the British Empire and endured with a fully non violent reformation.OWS can do the same.

[-] -1 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Thanks, but you might have meant this for someone else. I'm all about Gandhi and MLK. I was asking who was being "self-destructive."

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

The self-destruction of the movement.

[-] -2 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Seriously? Already?

Is it just normal abrasion, endemic or massive head wound, epidemic?

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

This anarchic flirtation with violence is juvenile, and will tar the reputation of this movement if we don't get it in check. That's all I mean.

[-] -2 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Who's paying for this website?

And if anarchists blow the movement (which they will if they have real control), are there alternate plans to keep the movement going?

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I think this movement is already a lot bigger then we ourselves realize. I don't think this movement is going anywhere but upwards. There are always peaks and valleys - changes of the guard in movements like this. But the imperative need of this movement is inescapable. It will grow and improve over time.

[-] 1 points by PoIemarchus (56) 2 years ago

As far as I can tell, it's only getting smaller and its reputation is being ruined by the anarchists who started the movement. I hope you're right, but I haven't seen improvements yet. The majority of earnest protesters scoff at all forms of criticism by calling it trollish. How do you expect a protest to improve if criticism is shunned? After all, criticism is the most important ingredient to foster improvements.

[-] 0 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

That's what I was thinking and hoping, but I wasn't aware of any REAL influence by anarchists.

Our local Occupy is a little "messy." This has a much better site.

I do think it wise to have a plan B, shit happens.

[-] 0 points by owsleader2038 (-10) 2 years ago

Study Kalle-Lasn and CANVAS ...to understand the wizard behind our curtain


Adbusters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Adbusters was founded in 1989 by Kalle Lasn and Bill Schmalz, a duo of ... In 1988, the British Columbia Council of Forest Industries, the "voice" of the logging ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adbusters - Cached - Similar Adbusters Culturejammer Headquarters | Journal of the mental ... 22 comments Adbusters, 31 January 2012 ... urged to occupy Chicago; Canadian Business: Interview with Kalle Lasn; BBC News: 'Nigeria Spring' here to stay ... www.adbusters.org/ - Cached - Similar Forum Post: OWS Needs To Create An Official, Moderated Website ... C.A.N.V.A.S also took part in the Tunisian and Egyptian revolutions. ... To hear tell from Adbusters founder and editor Kalle Lasn now, the ... Registrant: Kalle Lasn 1243 7th West Vancouver, British Columbia V6H 1B7 Canada ..

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[-] 0 points by BystanderDC (91) 2 years ago

No, I am not trying to do that, but we need to address that the violence is causing splinter groups. Why do you think there are people want to splinter and start the 99percenters? Violence only goes contra to a non-violent movement. I was just pointing out you can make a positive statement as OccupyDC did.

[-] -1 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Occupiers should never be violent.

Police should not show up to a peaceful protest in full riot gear.

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[-] 0 points by Simpleminded (28) 2 years ago

rioting, vandalism, destruction of public/private property, and assault to name a few.

[-] 3 points by occupiedoutlaw (5) 2 years ago

there are many casualties in a war zone...violence is contagious unfortunately...one violent act by a fool with or without a badge insights a riot of violence which cannot be controlled...which is precisely why this is such critical and worrisome time...lets work together y'all...spread peace...with your words and your actions.

[-] 1 points by proudofOKC (361) 2 years ago

Indeed.

[-] 2 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

I saw that you said that. I'll need proof.

Whether this is revolution or revelation, they're often messy. No one remembers the collateral damages of the Revolution or Civil wars.

Do you think private property is more important than our democracy and Constitution?? If so, you'd be wrong.

Fully armed troops?? Come on!!

[-] -2 points by Simpleminded (28) 2 years ago

Believe me, don't believe me, or do research yourself. Not everything can be handed to you entitlement kiddies.

[-] 0 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Nice Con talking point.

[-] 0 points by jamroll (6) 2 years ago

think of it this way: you were trying to steal a building, and the cops knew about it. You talk about the 1% being thieves, do not stoop to that. and can the damn violence.

[-] 1 points by uftscott (26) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Who were they stealing the building from?

[-] 1 points by Tacoma (6) 2 years ago

The community of Oakland.

[-] 3 points by BradinUtah (32) 2 years ago

Any self-centered immature person can be defiant; two year olds do it all the time. It takes character and a genuine concern for others to make our world a better place for all.

[-] 8 points by beautifulworld (19202) 2 years ago

The unemployment rate in Oakland is hard to find on it's own, not mixed in with San Francisco, but this website lists it at 16.2% for 2011:

http://www.bestplaces.net/city/california/oakland

[-] 1 points by 1169 (204) 2 years ago

whats going on in Oakland? Looks kinda heavy handed for some organized civil disobedience.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (19202) 2 years ago

Agreed.

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[-] 0 points by neizuc (52) 2 years ago

It is law breaking.

[-] 7 points by uftscott (26) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I'm sick of people just throwing around "law breaking" as an excuse for ANY police action. Misdemeanor trespass isn't a reason to fire chemical weapons at someone. Would you feel like it's an appropriate response if a cop shot you with a rubber bullet the next time you double-parked?

[-] 0 points by neizuc (52) 2 years ago

The level of moral equivalency is ridiculous. So now double parking and breaking and entering are equal?

[-] 4 points by aaronparr (612) 2 years ago

Learn how to use that argument correctly. You got it wrong.

The point is that the force was excessive. So would you care to deal with excessive force? Unless you like it, you have no argument.

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

That is the best example of excessive force given on here today. And aaronparr has summed it all up for us:

"Unless your like it, you have no argument."

Interpreted as:

I am the supreme aaronparr, I have put myself here and I am in control. If you don't like it, you have no argument. I RULE.

[-] 2 points by aaronparr (612) 2 years ago

It has nothing to do with my judgement. Its a matter of arguing first principles.

Good try with the ad-hominem though.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

You have not laid out the basis of the first principle. You simply stated your judgement and then state that we must all agree or stop speaking.

How did you arrive at your first point related to "excessive"??

[-] 1 points by aaronparr (612) 2 years ago

Yawn... I was backing up someone that you were unable to respond to effectively, and pointed out the fact.

Come on. You can do better.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

I really don't want to do any better. - philososphy is not my thing.

[-] -1 points by neizuc (52) 2 years ago

Breaking and entering is a felony. Ever hear of two wrongs don't make a right?

[-] 3 points by justone (7) 2 years ago

California has no statute for "breaking and entering." The closest thing is "burglary" which, under Penal Code 459, requires intent to commit a felony (usually theft). Occupy Oakland had intended to use the space to meet and provide free services (food, first-aid, library, classes, etc) to the community, thus "burglary" does not apply.

Furthermore, Kaiser Auditorium is public property, not private property, and has been vacant and unused for the last five years. That the city would prioritize protecting an empty, unused, public building with violent force against people who want to provide free services over addressing crimes committed against actual people (murder, assault, sexual assault, theft, actual burglary) shows that they have no regard for the people they claim to represent.

[-] 1 points by neizuc (52) 2 years ago

Is City Hall vacant and unused?

If the intent of OO was to create a community center is there any process for doing so besides breaking in? If that is the stated goal - establishing a community center - why was this tactic used? Does OO have funding or any sort of plan for running said community center? Does Oakland have other community center's that OO is already helping with and if so which ones?

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

Links above reveal manipulation, stampeding and possible agent provocateurs that lead to the damage (broken glass, broken model, burned flag and knocked over candy vending machine) at city hall. People have been scouring the Internet for the evidence of damage to 'children's art' but have yet to find it. Consider as well that the last major action that resulted in arrests for property damage revealed that the lion's share of the vandals arrested were from out of town, who came in for the event.

[-] 1 points by neizuc (52) 2 years ago

And you know this how?

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

The links above?

[-] 1 points by neizuc (52) 2 years ago

So any mistakes are someone else's fault?

Is there any possibility whatsoever in your mind that OO is in any way at fault?

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

So it looks as if this might be a pattern of questions that can be mistaken for a rhetorical tool of implication of an assertion. Before we go down this path, I wonder if we can come to an agreement regarding our intent. For my part, I have learned that conversations wherein people have differing views are more productive if attachment to the debate stance of winning is relinquished and rather two people can converse in order to exchange viewpoints and grow from it even though they may still not agree.

Regarding fault placing in the above 2 questions, I do not think that placing fault on any one party puts us on a path toward amelioration. No single group is free of or solely responsible for blame. One group is certainly able to get more information out to a broader population however so it might be important to get additional information out in order to broaden the view of the complexity of the situation.

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Well, what do you expect. If I put a notice in the paper and all over the internet, that on Saturday, I will be throwing a party to take over the bowling alley and that everything will be free, and that we will be doing all kinds of activities, - I would expect a few out of towners to show up for the event. If the whole thing goes south and a riot erupts, I got an easy out - I will just blame the out of towners.

If the Police had been doing their job, they would have stopped those out of towners at the gates to the city and we would not have had any trouble.

Pretty elementary excuse there BGB. Whether it is true of not, it is your excuse. A suggestion: next time, request POLICE PROTECTION for your event rather than triggering their response AGAINST YOU.

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

I answer with some trepidation due to the allcaps in your response. I hope that we can have a conversation that is about a respectful, civil mutual exchange.

I think it might be good to clarify some things. The out-of-towners that I mentioned were not arrested in an event that advertised activities related to taking over a building. This was a previous demonstration. The analogy of a bowling alley would connote a private facility and Kaiser Center (a multi use facility) is one paid for by the people of Oakland. Also, Oakland does not have what could be seen as gates to the city. It is surrounded (with the exception of the bay side) by other cities and all are integrated with a multitude of roads.

I think too that somewhere there may have been a misunderstanding. I am not a member of Occupy Oakland (except in spirit as someone who lived in Oakland for over 15 years) so I was not involved in the event. The evidence I gave regarding out of towners was not to rationalize a mistake I made but rather to expose an element of what was going on. Also I haven't had a response triggered against me by the police recently, though in my current community we have been working with the police quite a bit to save the neighborhood and I have good relations with them. In fact I will be doing a triathlon with one of the local deputies this Summer. The environment in Oakland however is very different and even though the people have attempted to work with the city, there has been a long history of violence and antipathy coming from the police. Though it merits saying as well that they are chronically, grossly understaffed and the burn out rate is high.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Thanks for the reply. I realize that the activities that were being discussed were not "advertised" as such, but look through the topics of these forums and you will have no problem seeing evidence of the advertisement that I referred to. It is now pretty much common knowledge that OWS activities involve occupying abondoned property whether it is forclosed property belonging to a financial institution or city government. Do you really see and difference, in my opinion it is not a matter of WHO ownes the property - if it is not yours, it is not yours. What is to discuss about that.

I have been aware of the "out of town" element since the inception of OWS. However, that is no excuse for anything as for the most part, a large element of OWS could probably fit into the "out of town" catagory. It does not, in my opinion, negate the responsibility of "self policing" or accept the consequences.

If a parent is responsible for activities involving underage drinking in their home, why would OWS not be responsibile for illegal activities within their created groups, mobs or whatever you want to call them.

I have not lived in the Oakland area. For the most part, in today's society, a suspect that a great number of the police forces are quite understaffed in reagards to the increasing incidents of problems that they are required to deal with. Any discussion with police officers or others involved with policing activities would probably provide the same tone - rampant crime and understaffed forces.

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

Regarding the difference of who owns the property and it not belonging to me, I think this is a difference of perspective on what a government is. I see a government building as a building I have contributed toward. I am a partial owner of that building. I do not see the attempt to provide a service to the community with a community building as such a heinous act.

As for 'self-policing', there are quite a few videos in evidence regarding that very issue, people who had put their bodies in front of property that some of the Black Bloc had tried to damage. It is not as if they are doing nothing. This is still a struggle and in some ways not a perfect one. I personally would not decide that the OO movement is all bad due to this. I read and engage in some of the discussions on it and offer my support from a distance.

Again, I do not agree with the damage or any of the violence but condemning from afar provides no constructive purpose. Rather discovering how I can help rather than deciding to criticize means that I can foster the more constructive, peaceful and respectful parts of the OO aspect of the larger Occupy movement. However small that might be from a distance.

Speaking as someone who feels a kinship with people who do live in Oakland and who misses that city quite a bit; regarding police in Oakland: The OPD has been dangerously understaffed for much longer than the economy has suffered, resulting in the reduction of forces elsewhere. Even when California was doing so well that they ranked #5 in the world in economies, Oakland's police force was over worked and understaffed. This is also not due to low pay. They have been fairly consistently the highest or second highest paid police department in California. It is due to the decades long dysfunctional relationship between the police and the people that has not been remedied. The abuse of the citizens has gone on for longer than a half of a century and it has fostered a deep seeded distrust and dysfunction that only a comparative few other cities in the US have experienced. Yet still a large share of the population elsewhere seems to blame the citizens while graft, greed, fraud and manipulation has its strangle hold on politics in Oakland.

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[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Does't show anything - you show it and think therefore, that it is correct.

May I suggest that if OWS wants a vacant building, that they come up with a plan, lease a building (even if at no cost), get the building up to code in order to protect all those fellow followers that they are so concerned about, turn on the utilities and get their food, first-aid, library, classes moving.

If you see this happening - you will know the real intent of OWS. If you DO NOT see it happening, even then you will know the real intent of OWS. Either way - we wait and have been waiting for four months to see it happen.

Seems that the only reason that it has not happened already is because of the Police - great excuse there OWS. Blame the Police as the reason for you not doing what you propose to save the masses.

If you believe in follow the example - you have NO example for anyone to follow - other than finding someone or something to blame. I think that if you do a little research, you will find out that your results are NOT GOING TO be another Red Cross, Salvation Army, Food Pantry, or any other lasting "leaderless" organization helping others.

If 25 years from now, the written history of this period states that the reason there was no food, first-aid, library, classes, or other lasting services rendered, was because the Police would not allow the group to take and occupy by numbers alone, a vacant building, the history will look prettty much like it really was in 2011-12

[-] 1 points by aaronparr (612) 2 years ago

Trying to change the argument doesn't work. Which does not change the fact that trying to argue moral equivalency in this case doesn't work.

Give reason a chance, and you may improve your performance. Scrolling back up and actually picking up on the thread of the discussion might help too.

The FACT is that the police broke their own rules in this instance. And nothing that the OWSers did justifies the level of force used.

Much more can be said, but nothing more needs to be said with regards to your points, unless you are capable of raising any that have not been previously adressed.

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[-] 2 points by DonQuixot (231) 2 years ago

Police often infiltrates riots to justify repression. Who investigates police? Police itself investigte themselves? Ridiculous. Politicians who give orders to police investigate police? Ridiculous. So police can act with impunity, do whatever they want and are not responsible for anything. The promises of mayors, etc. that they will investigate policemen are never carried out.

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[-] -1 points by unimportant (716) 2 years ago

Police are in a position of authority over regular citizens so they must rise above and be beyond reproach in their actions. Doing less should be grounds to be fired. Police are also Officers of the Court.

Educate yourself and free your mind.

[-] 1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

How do you "free" something that is so all over the place that you cannot even determine exactly where it is.

I am beginning to suspect that if you asked everyone on these forums to raise their hand if they completed 8th grade, there would not be much of a breeze generated.

[-] 0 points by unimportant (716) 2 years ago

Sigh..., we of the OWS movement are not responsible for the opposing views or their education. You might join the OSW movement so that we can correct this egregious lack in the religious right and those that voted for Bush the second term.

Are you on board with this effort to educate our country?

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Unless you have spent no less that one year in education, please don't even attempt to plan any effort to educate our country.

You do not start out with education, you start out with a NEED for education and to date, I have not seen this need identified in any other forums herein. Education, without NEED, is brainwashing - and I very much expect that this is all more about brainwashing that actual education.

The attitude expressed herein, for the most part, has been one of "let me educate you about a few things". The prime educational materials seem to be reference to http:, blog, and related sources of "educational" materials from the same brainwashing experts.

If this is what OWS "education" is all about - forget it, and please don't disgrace out educational system by relating any part of OWS to it.

[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 2 years ago

Read and comprehension is sadly not taught or required learning apparently or you just did not pay attention in class. Whichever it is, shrug, I don't know.

By your standards learning only has value if one has a need to learn whatever it is being taught. Me, I enjoy learning as its own reward. You might give that a shot if you ever want to know the facts as to what is actually dysfunctional in the Country

I take it you voted for George W. twice.... ouch. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me...

Anything else?

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

If you were a student of learning, you would know that putting words into someones else's mouth if not education, it is brainwashing. How I vote is not an issue and certainly not determine after the fact by YOU. Take that any way you want.

I might use your system of reasoning and determine the following:

If you enjoy learning as its own reward, that in effect becomes your standard of value for learning whatever it is you are reading. In summary, you read to learn whatever it is that is being taught, and that becomes your reward for reading.

HOWEVER, every teacher knows that comprehension is merely a part of reading - you must comprehend what the writer intends - but more important you must have the wisdom and understanding to apply some standards to what you have read and within your own mine determine the application of such.

Look at the posts herein and all of the http: references. These are not references to some great issues being presented for general consumption but rather, are, proof that at least one person has found something pre written that they agree with - ie, that supports what they already knew.

Voting is not the issue, any monkey can be taught to check a box. Reading, etc, and determining who to vote for is the issue. So your discussion of checking a box (voting) is actually a rather simplistic approach to what really takes place.

[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 2 years ago

You should really consider using plain language instead of attempting to use words that do not mean what you think they mean.

"If you enjoy learning as its own reward, that in effect becomes your standard of value for learning whatever it is you are reading. In summary, you read to learn whatever it is that is being taught, and that becomes your reward for reading."

This simply makes no sense no matter how many time your read it. I don't "read to learn whatever it is that is being taught". I read to learn for the sake of learning. I don't need to be taught or have another interpret what I am reading for me. Thus, I am not "brainwashed" by a third party's interpretation of that which I am reading.

You seem to be saying that learning, education and reading have no value if you are learning, educating yourself and/or reading for the sake of learning, educating yourself and/or reading. Einstein, Tesla, Franklin and people like this read, educated themselves and learned because they wanted to know more, i.e. for the sake of learning.

You are aware that if you have a bachelor degree in whatever you wanted to earn a bachelor degree in that all you need to teach is a teaching certificate right? It is not some arcane six year degree in a specific field that allows you to teach. You are aware of this aren't you?

I could have six years of experience as a graphic artist, I actually have 30 years of experience, and can get a teaching certificate and could theoretically teach at the college level.

"Look at the posts herein" really? and this "These are not references to some great issues"

This is a great response, er, not.

"Voting is not the issue, any monkey can be taught to check a box. Reading, etc, and determining who to vote for is the issue. So your discussion of checking a box (voting) is actually a rather simplistic approach to what really takes place."

I assumed people did their homework prior to voting and came to the conclusion that George W., was their man and not that they just saw multiple check boxes, closed their eyes and took a wild stab at them. I mean these folks aren't that stupid, yet they did vote for George W., twice.

Who votes for a guy that destroys jobs? Who votes for a guy that cheats on two of his wives, and marries the women he is cheating with? Are you disputing these facts or just saying that these people knew about them before they voted for these two clowns?

How about what-her-face that doesn't even know her country's history and how the slave owning founding fathers freed the slaves?

How much stupidity [self-imposed ignorance] do we have to continue to pay for? What is wrong with our educational system?

You are defending this.

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[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

If I stole a tank from the local armory and double parked downtown - I sure would be prone to file a lawsuit for police brutality - those idiots.

I really don't know why anyone would see anything wrong with a few thousand people getting together for a picnic and then trying to take over a vacant building when it started to rain, so as not to interrupt the fun.

Just doesn't make any sense does it???? SMILE

[-] 3 points by DonQuixot (231) 2 years ago

And what happens when the 1 % break the law? Nothing

[-] 1 points by neizuc (52) 2 years ago

So you acknowledge that laws were broken?

Do two wrongs make a right? And which law are you talking about exactly?

I don't get how a percentage of the population breaks a law en masse - state which people and which law.

[-] 1 points by DonQuixot (231) 2 years ago

Go to Michel Moore' website. He says nobody has been charged for anything in the crisis, and he surely knows who should be chared for what. Another problem is that all regulations were withdrawn to enable bankers to do whatever they want wihout braking any law. If bankers make laws to favour them and not the rest of us, they do not need to break any law to do whatever they want. They own democracy, so why vote?

[-] 1 points by neizuc (52) 2 years ago

Ever hear of Raj Rajaratnam?

What about the 3 Credit Suisse traders charged on the first?

Have any of you stopped to consider the possibility that your understanding of this topic is not so great?

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Yeah - not a word about any of them being brought up on charges, facing Congressional hearings, etc, EXCEPT in the newspapers that I read and Fox news. No big banks in trouble, being fined etc. And really, do you think that Enron doen't still exist. That was probably just a big false case.

Even Mr. Holder himself is in the hot seat for his involvement in various activities.

Seems like you are missing some of the news today. Might want to check it all out a little more before declaring "nothing". Regardless where you stand on these issues, "something" still is not "nothing".

[-] 1 points by DonQuixot (231) 2 years ago

Exceptions confirm the rule.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Only when your attention is elsewhere and you choose to ignore what you identify as exceptions.

Exactly who else do you want to add to the list. You must have someone in mind. I please, don't just list a big bunch of this and that.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Yeah, I can't believe that all those ENRON, Madoff and other characters got away with what they did.

We just read of an incident in an adjoining state where a lady was thought to embezzel several hundred thousands of dollars. Before she should be fully charged, she drove over here and shot herself. Just another case of the 1% breaking the law and nothing being done.

[-] 1 points by DonQuixot (231) 2 years ago

Americans don't know what happens in their own country. John Kennedy said there is nothing more anti-democratic as secrecy, and he was killed shortly afterwards. Read this http://www.alternet.org/story/153961/the_18_most_secretive_corporations_in_the_citizens_united_era/ then perhaps you will understand that there is no democracy in the US, only a theatre for the masses, while real things happen hidden.

[-] -1 points by commonsense11 (195) 2 years ago

Agreed.

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[-] 7 points by paulg5 (673) 2 years ago

The police tactics in Oakland have been horendous from the start, you reap what you sow OPD! How hard would it have been for police to just let the protestors proceed up the street!

[-] 2 points by shifty2 (117) 2 years ago

They were trying to take over a privately owned building, How can they think just because a building that is vacant can they can claim it as theirs, They know that there will be cop intervention when they planed this. I protest in Inverness Fl with a small group but were growing every week, We have a one hour meeting then go to the street with our signs for three hours we do this once a week on Sat, We have rules no profanity no getting mad at people that flip us off, I know those people watch protest around the country getting into clashes with the cops for things like this happening in Oakland, We are all older people that worries about our children and grandchildren s future. Lets be peaceful and protest in A truly peaceful manner for changes in our Government. I do not agree with the way the cops handled this but how can they stop a crowd this large determined not to stop. I know I will get mad responses to this, But nobody has to agree this is just one persons opinion.

[-] 3 points by paulg5 (673) 2 years ago

I think the building was abandoned not sure, but again the police protect property and lives! They want to protect an abandoned building fine protect the BUILDING board it up. If it's an eye sore the owner has the responsibility to maintain it! The police do not have the right to gas, pepper spray, percussion bomb, and shoot people with rubber bullets because they SUSPECT that they might occupy a building three blocks away! Ridiculous, anyone who believes this is OK in AMERICAN needs their head examined!

[-] 1 points by justone (7) 2 years ago

"They were trying to take over a publicly owned, unused building to provide free services"

Fixed that for you.

[-] 1 points by shifty2 (117) 2 years ago

Where does it say it is a public building, It says the cops were protecting the 1%'s vacant assets, I can only go by what I read. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thx

[-] 1 points by Tacoma (6) 2 years ago

You are wrong. The building is owned by the City of Oakland. It has nothing to do with the 1%. I remember anti-apartheid activists renting it for a celebration when Nelson Mandela was freed. It isn't a 1% kind of place. They would not be caught in the neighborhood.

[-] 1 points by proudofOKC (361) 2 years ago

I think you and I have a lot of the same ideas. Thanks for sharing.

[-] 1 points by BystanderDC (91) 2 years ago

What we need is more Tim Pool's streaming the actions live to give us transparency. That is what this movement is about. Transparency. I hate when people get mad and say taking pictures and video of all actions good bad and ugly should be censored to only show the good. That is propaganda my friends. And OWS should yell shame on that. I support what Tim is doing. Let the camera of justice shine on everyone.

Link: http://redtape.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/31/10282654-cameras-no-longer-welcome-at-occupy-wall-street-attack-highlights-conflict

[-] 2 points by paulg5 (673) 2 years ago

I like Tim's streems to but he has sort of become a self appointed spokes person for the movement a movement that claims it has no leader. Hope Tim doesn't become a MSM wannabee and continues to streem both sides. If you put yourself in harms way don't expect to go unscathed! Besides at one march Tim was pushed around by the police but MSN wasn't interested in that, they only want the stuff that sensationalizes the actions of OWS negatively.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFaviIoy4rg&feature=player_embedded

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[-] 2 points by PoIemarchus (56) 2 years ago

What do you think of OWS propaganda?

http://occupywallst.org/article/solidarity-sunday/

Look at the wonderful press release above. At a time when Fox news and other conservative media outlets accuse Occupy of being violent because of the actions of the black bloc, OWS publishes a news article with the headline "Wear Black Fight Back" placed just above an image featuring a nice explosion just under the word "cops". Interestingly, a closer look at the image reveals that the explosion was added using an image processing software.

Awesome marketing tactics! Way awesome. Even stranger, when one reports this issue earnest Occupy protesters who claim to promote non-violence scoff at this criticism by calling it trollish. Cult-like behavior. Follow OWS leaders 100%. Don't criticize buddy, that's real bad. Just do what they say. They know best.

Are you wearing black now? How does that work? Do you blend in nicely with the black bloc?

If you truly care about transparency, you should ask the OWS authors to sign their press releases. They should also allow criticism of such press releases. These people are ruining the reputation of your protest and you don't even care.

You should also ask who the moderators are on this site. They banned me when I criticized this article. They'll probably ban me again. That's an awesome way to promote transparency. Hide your names and ban anyone who asks you to show them and who criticizes how you promote the protest.

[-] 3 points by bubul (18) 2 years ago

'Wear black.' Hmm. Except that there was no violence on any of the actions on Sunday, when you claim it was incited, and that all violence of the kind which you're complaining about has been consistently instigated by the police.

Please give it a rest.

[-] 0 points by PoIemarchus (56) 2 years ago

You do understand that this bad marketing is giving our opponents material to ruin our reputation, right? Are you one of the OWS image manipulators that added that explosion at the bottom of the image just beside the word "cops"?

I've read reports that some violence was instigated by the black bloc.

[-] 2 points by bubul (18) 2 years ago

Look, be realistic. Fox News et. al. is going to come up with negative stuff--or make it up--regardless of what happens, and complaining about 'instigating' non-existent violence is also giving our opponents material to ruin our reputation. For example, I watched most of the march in NYC online, and the most that happened was somebody tossing a half-empty can of soda, which hit a policeman in the foot. The police promptly jacked the first guy wearing black they saw, who wasn't the person who tossed the can.
Intentionally or not, you're concern trolling. I'm not going to keep going back and forth with you.

[-] 1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

I know that none of you watch Fox News. Once in a while I watch their evening report and I actually think that it is very well done.

If you think that Fox is coming up with a lot of negative stuff - your surely exaggerate your importance. I suspect that you would be more than violently ill watching Fox until OWS was mentioned.

If you want to see yourself on TV, get the rosie picture from MSNBC. Just watch out who "kisses" you -

[-] 2 points by ProudAmerican1970 (-11) 2 years ago

I have seen this "demonstration" or "protest" as they want to call it, do some pretty disgusting things. Like throwing condoms at Catholic schoolgirls? What did they ever do to you?? I think that they are making fools of themselves. They don't need FOX to do it for them!

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Really, can you even imagine anything more sad that watching a lone man build his own coffin.

Every activity on the part of this movement that shows any evidence of this type of activity is simply another nail. To date, it seems that the coffin is about complete.

[-] 1 points by ProudAmerican1970 (-11) 2 years ago

WOW! They really have you people brainwashed don't they??? Please don't drink any more kool-aid.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

It really isn't the kool-aid. And who is "they", friends of yours??

[-] 1 points by PoIemarchus (56) 2 years ago

Even if Fox news is going to come up with stuff, OWS should distance itself from the black bloc. It should not ask protesters to "Wear Black Fight Back", the color of the black bloc, just over an image they modified to add an explosion over the word "cops".

This is about integrity. It's about showing everyone they really prone non-violence.

The police promptly jacked the first guy wearing black they saw, who wasn't the person who tossed the can.

One more reason not to wear the color of the black bloc.

I'm not going to keep going back and forth with you.

What? You say this after I replied to only one of your messages? I just served the ball man. We haven't even began making exchanges.

[-] 2 points by aaronparr (612) 2 years ago

I agree that the BlackBloc has got to go, but as to the rest of the consipracy theories, and obsession about marketting... yawn.

The point is that this movement will be successful as a non-violent movement. Violence will be the downfall. Nothing more to say.

[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 2 years ago

Sorry but I looked at the image and there is no manipulation. You don't know what you are talking about. FYI I am a graphic artist and have used just about every piece of graphics software out there and have used software for at least twenty years.

If you cared about honesty you wouldn't make such claims.

[-] 0 points by florian (-2) 2 years ago

Did you take a moment to look for the original image on the Internet? There's one without the explosion.

In any case, that does not matter all that much. The simple fact of choosing an image with an explosion beside the word "cops" is already problematic.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Or it would allow you to hunt them down, nay?

[-] 1 points by proudofOKC (361) 2 years ago

I think that is one of the reasons names are not signed. Transparency is important. Get the livestreamers there for every even covering both sides. At the same time, I myself do not want to be cyber stalked.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Of course you wouldn't. It's only ok when you put someone else out there on the line.

[-] 1 points by proudofOKC (361) 2 years ago

I put myself out there at protests, but I march anonymously. I only have this username and post on this website because I can do so anonymously. Like I said, it's good to have transparency in the form of people video streaming everything that happens, but they should not have to sign their legal name at the end of it.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

No argument here. I agree with you.

[-] 1 points by proudofOKC (361) 2 years ago

Thanks. :-)

[-] -1 points by PoIemarchus (56) 2 years ago

Why would I or anyone else want to hunt them down? I'm not the police. I care about OWS, and that's why I want it to become more transparent. If I or anyone else wants to hunt down OWS organizers they can simply attend the general assemblies.

I'd like to know if the press articles are being written by one person, or by a team. I'd also like to know if there is a rotation of personnel, or if it's like this site where a few people have had complete control since the beginning.

Fighting off logical criticism the way you do is a major problem. Critical thought is what could make Occupy a better protest. Unfortunately, most protesters are like you. They follow like sheep and whenever someone provides critical thinking aimed at improving the protest they scoff and use all kinds of logical fallacies to shut them off.

In the end, you're only hurting yourself.

I take it you see no problem with the press release I have pointed out. That's sad. Your protest is being ruined by the anarchists who started it and you don't even care.

Let's hope the government doesn't decide that transparency is dangerous and opt to hide the names of all people in government. That would lead America towards a totalitarian regime pretty quickly.

My hope is that Occupy becomes an example to follow, not a setup to avoid.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Then hand over your real name, address, date of birth, wife's name, phone numbers, and that of your employer.

in the name of transparency.......

[-] 1 points by BystanderDC (91) 2 years ago

GirlFriday,what would you do with the information? Honestly? I wish there were more people like Tim out there sharing information and streaming the truth. However, he is one of those people who is being persecuted by some of the OWS movement because he won't filter or edit his footage. I have heard there have been threats against him and attempts to smear him because of his personal stance.

[-] -1 points by PoIemarchus (56) 2 years ago

This is to be expected. Criticizing OWS is a big no-no as you can see from GirlFriday's replies in this thread. All she does is throw one red herring after another in an effort to avoid my criticism and tarnish my reputation with ad hominem.

The truth is very simple. OWS is lead by anarchists who do not promote transparency, criticism, nor auto-criticism. In fact, they fight very hard against all forms of criticism. I got banned on a few occasions for being critical. I'm not surprised Tim is having problems.

The vast majority of protesters do not support violence like the anarchists leading the movement. Unfortunately for us, they are following OWS as if it were a cult. All forms of criticism are highly discouraged and those who bring it up are deemed as being trolls. Critical thought is being killed.

This is extremely sad because OWS is a much needed protest. If only it could become truly transparent and accept criticism and auto-criticism perhaps there would be a chance that it could lead us towards a better world. Unfortunately, a totalitarian type protest won't do much good at helping us create a more democratic world.

[-] -1 points by PoIemarchus (56) 2 years ago

I'm not organizing a protest for thousands of protesters in one of the biggest nations in the world. I'm also not accepting donations from people. I have no employer. I have no power over anyone else. There's no reason for me to reveal my name.

People in positions of power in organizations like the government, protests, non-profit organizations, etc.. should be transparent and reveal their names. I'm not asking for their address, their date of births, their wife's name, etc... I'm only asking to know who is writing OWS articles, how many of them there are, and if they take turns.

It's entirely normal to ask that a protest like OWS which accepts donations (they have a button on this site) to be as transparent as possible. Any website that asks for donations should clearly indicate who the moderators are and who the news article writers are. Non-profit organizations should be very clear about their organizational structure.

It saddens me, because most protesters offer replies like yours. By refusing transparency under the pretext of all kinds of logical fallacies, you're killing OWS in the process. Occupy is the most important protest at this time to fight against government corruption. It's alarming that most protesters don't wish to make it a better.

I've answered all your questions as best I can. Could you now answer mine, or are you going to keep avoiding it?

Do you not see the problem with the press release I noted above?

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

I'm not seeing all of the things that are requested in the name of transparency. Where are they?

By refusing transparency, you are merely a shill.

[-] 0 points by PoIemarchus (56) 2 years ago

Predictably, you avoid the serious issue I bring up. This obsession with avoiding all types of criticism is what will kill OWS. It is becoming rotten from the inside because earnest protesters don't care about badly written and planned press releases, and they don't care about transparency.

I'm asking those in power to reveal their names, not every day protesters, nor the posters on this forum. When you lead the largest international non-profit protest in the word, transparency is of utmost importance. People will not keep donating if the donations are handled by people behind a curtain.

Occupy must become transparent simply because it is asking for a better form of democracy. They must set the example. You can't ask for more democracy from the government while being hidden behind a curtain.

Again, do you or do you not see the problem with the press release I noted above? Ignoring this question or using logical fallacies to counter it won't make it go away.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

The only person ignoring this is you. Hand over the information that is requested or I have to assume that you are, in fact, a Koch head. I mean, people will merely go question your parents, possibly talk to former teachers, or former bosses. What's the harm? I don't see any harm in transparency here, do you?

Only a Koch head would have a vested interest in 15 different accounts and continuously trying to pull people and speakers out and casting them in a disparaging light. Koch head. This would be the reason that you keep saying things like you shouldn't pay attention to the why someone is writing a post but look at the posts. amiright?

[-] -1 points by PoIemarchus (56) 2 years ago

No, you're wrong and only proving my point. Appeal to motive or authority is a logical fallacy in a case where it doesn't matter at all. There's no reason for me to reveal my identity. I'm just a forum poster without any control over the protest and I don't accept donations of any kind. People leading a protest to fight for a better democracy and who accept donations should be as transparent as possible. Period.

Instead of answering the serious criticism I bring up you are only throwing red herrings. Even if I should reveal my name, which I shouldn't because of the reasons stated above, it changes nothing to the fact that OWS should reveal the names of its leaders and how the protest is structured behind the curtain.

Sadly, most protesters are now like yourself. They follow OWS like sheep following a cult leader. They scoff at all criticism by using logical fallacy after logical fallacy in a sad but ineffective attempt to dismiss it.

After all your red herrings, the fact still remains that it's utterly strange that OWS would publish a press release that reads "Wear Black Fight Back" over an image which contains an explosion under the word "cops". This is OWS shooting themselves in the foot. Period. Whether you think I'm some kind of paid agent, a troll, or whatever else does not change this in the least.

At this point, there's no reason to watch Fox news if one wants material to harm the reputation of the protest. That material is coming from OWS itself and protesters such as yourself simply don't care at all. To me, this means you support this type of press release, and, in the end, it means you support the shadowy figures that run Occupy and their call for violence.

Don't be surprised in a few months when your beloved protest has lost all credibility. If protesters can't stand up and demand transparency and proper press reporting from their own protest, then Occupy is doomed.

My hope is that another protest takes its place. One that is truly transparent, non-violent, and that promotes criticism and auto-criticism. Not one that makes its protesters behave like cult followers.

I know, I know. I should shut up because criticism and dissent are not acceptable.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

I am right and you have repeatedly proved my point. Hand over the information or we have to assume that you are a Koch head. :D

Transparency.

[-] 0 points by PoIemarchus (56) 2 years ago

Thanks for proving my point with such vehemence. Intelligent readers will be able to see that you only use logical fallacies to defend this horrible press release from OWS and their willingness to remain hidden behind the curtain.

There's no point in continuing this conversation. I have repeatedly answered your questions, but you have yet to answer a single one of mine.

Good luck with Occupy. You'll need it with your frame of mind.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

You prefer the passive aggressive game with Jart and the moderators. I have pointed this out, before.

"I assume you also believe the government should hide the information of our representatives for fear of retribution?"

So, you are a US citizen all of a sudden?

[-] -1 points by PoIemarchus (56) 2 years ago

So, you are a US citizen all of a sudden?

No, why would you think this? My question did not refer to this in any way.


You're still using red herrings instead of discussing the serious issue of the horrible press release I brought up above. Why? Are you scared to talk about this because you know that I'm right?

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

The only person that you are fooling, sweetie, is yourself and your other fourteen accounts. You have a great day, Thrasy. Hug your kids and wife a little more and be thankful you were smart enough not to reveal your identity. Anybody cruising through could pick up that information and have used it against you. I wouldn't do it but there are those out in the cyberworld that would be complete and total jerks. And they wouldn't need 14 other accounts to do it.

[-] -1 points by PoIemarchus (56) 2 years ago

If my goal was to use information against someone I would have done so against jart a long time ago. Her full name and email is available for everyone's viewing. She's one of the few transparent organizers.

I assume you also believe the government should hide the information of our representatives for fear of retribution?

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

The only person that you are fooling, sweetie, is yourself and your other fourteen accounts.

You have a great day, Thrasy. Hug your kids and wife a little more and be thankful you were smart enough not to reveal your identity. Anybody cruising through could pick up that information and have used it against you. I wouldn't do it but there are those out in the cyberworld that would be complete and total jerks. And they wouldn't need 14 other accounts to do it.

[-] -1 points by PoIemarchus (56) 2 years ago

You're still using your logical fallacies to avoid the subject? Why? Does it scare you that much to talk about the horrible OWS press release I criticized above?

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Fork over the information or you are a Koch head. You have already lost all credibility. In the name of transparency...........give us your address, phone number, full name, wife's name.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

We cannot continue until you fork over your information. Like I said, we have no choice but to assume that the only reason that you have been repeatedly banned and maintain 15 accounts is because you are a Koch head. So, the only way for you to prove that you aren't is to fork over the information. Why worry? There is absolutely no possibility of harm.

In the name of transparency, reveal yourself. You have no interest in any of the grievances that were listed in the Declaration by your own admission. Merely in the artwork and PR. Of course, if you controlled that aspect then none of these problems would exist. I do find that quite in line with the Koch heads.

Have a great day there, Thrasy.

[-] 1 points by rottkamp (8) 2 years ago

"stay out of the weeds," guys. the only thing that matters is mass. when we get many more feet on the ground, these issues will fall away!

[-] 0 points by PoIemarchus (56) 2 years ago

My information is irrelevant to this discussion. Your asking for it is a red herring designed to avoid my serious questions. Intelligent readers see right through this type of logical fallacy.

The information pertaining to the most important international protest that accepts donations, pertains to fight for democracy, and makes decisions for many people is not irrelevant to this discussion. It is of prime concern.

You have no interest in any of the grievances that were listed in the Declaration by your own admission. Merely in the artwork and PR.

More logical fallacies designed to avoid my questions. This time a lame ad hominem. You accuse me of being a Koch head without any type of evidence.

What's funnier is that it really doesn't matter. Even if I was a Koch head, my argument concerning this press release would still stand tall.

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[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Hey come on - really. In all honesty, and in my simple opinion, if this group decided to sell Snicker candy bars on the street corner for 25 cents each, they would have been out of business long ago.

Maybe when all is said and done, some people will wise up to just how hard it is to organize, create, operate, etc any business whether it is a protest movement or WalMart.

Better watch out who you point fingers at. You aren't exactly the perfect operators.

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[-] 0 points by BradinUtah (32) 2 years ago

Yea, what do police officers think they are doing enforcing the law and protecting people & property anyway? They should should just hang out at donut shop and let criminals roam the streets at will. Afterall, most police officers are 1% ers with multimillion dollar bank accounts and don't need to work anyway.

[-] 1 points by proudofOKC (361) 2 years ago

Of the three functions you mentioned, I think protecting people takes precedence over the other two. Were the protesters hurting anyone? Were they injuring human bodies? No. That's what the police were doing. I don't consider filling an empty building with people seeking to provide free assistance to the community property damage on that building. I think this movement has already covered the enforcing the law part. The issue here is that Oakland has high unemployment rates, high homeless rates, and empty buildings with cops protecting them. Does that not seem like an issue to you?

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

This News article is total propaganda crap. Meant to demonize authority like so many other News articles that are written by some behind the scenes anarchists running OWS.

"citizens gathered to open a community center". That is complete crap. It's breaking and entering, invading private property.

How about I go "open" a bank and take some money out. I'm going to do good things with that money. If it's your money, you won't mind, because you're not using it right now, right?

These people in Oakland are out of their minds and actions like theirs will destroy this movement. And same thing with these crappy propaganda News articles. Who writes this garbage? It's total crap.

[-] 2 points by shifty2 (117) 2 years ago

Yes since when can people take over a vacant building for any reason, I wish it was that simple so when they take my home which will be soon, I could just find an empty one and move in and take it over, And as for the cops its their jot to protect life limb and property. They ma-by could have handled it differently. But OO was in the wrong too in my opinion they should be protesting the many different problems in our Government not trying to occupy a vacant building. Have a great day.

[-] -1 points by BradinUtah (32) 2 years ago

"filling an empty building?" Get real.

[-] 0 points by paulg5 (673) 2 years ago

their job is to protect property and lives not start riots, Thats all they had to do was not confront the protestors and let them walk up the street, not real dificult! In Oakland judging from the streems time and time again the police have proven To be antagonists provocateurs of violence!

[-] -1 points by BradinUtah (32) 2 years ago

NONSENSE. I have been in law enforcemoent for 30 years and the last thing police want to do is Deal with OWS silliness.

[-] 1 points by paulg5 (673) 2 years ago

Your idea of law enforcement is quite different from the norm I'm afraid if you think terrorizing a lawful peaceful demonstration is OK. Like I said it is not your job to DEAL WITH anything. Your job is protect people and property that's it! Besides that your attitude towards OWS is obviously discriminatory! Your just another flakey battle happy old school cop that needs to be retrained or let go!

[-] -1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

We need more of you since OWS is clearly out of control.

[-] 1 points by BradinUtah (32) 2 years ago

BLAMING OTHERS IS NOT THE ANSWER. Actually, we need more good parents able to raise mature responsible adults who have a genuine concern for others and realize that we are not a product of our circumstances, but of our decisions. "All blame is a waste of time. No mater how much fault you find with another, and regardless go how much you blame him, it will not change you." Wayne Dyer.

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

How hard would it have been for the protestors to organize a little Police protection for their activity before they set a foot on the street.

Don't blame the Police for your lack of planning and really, your stupidity in not seeking their cooperation. They were there to protect you and your activities, not the law breakers. BUT you choose to see them as part of the enemy - how justifying that when you decide you really need the POLICE, they are busy trying to keep you and your "guests" from tearing up the city.

Ironic - just how dumb we can be at time.

[-] 1 points by paulg5 (673) 2 years ago

Your sounding stupid dude! Look at the evidence there are streams all over the place, do the research, I'm done teaching the notion of questioning authority!

http://occupypeace.blogspot.com/2011/10/permits-for-protest-marches.html

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

I may sound stupid - that relates to what your ears take in and your mind processes. Your call on that one.

I have no problem with questioning authority. But this should be done within the mind of the person, exercising the knowledge and the wisdom of that person's mind. To question authority by physical means is not to "question" authority - it is to "deny" authority. I see a great difference.

Whether we want to admit it or not, this world is controlled by the silent, unheard voices of its citizens. Those who shout the loudest, actually get the least attention.

OWS did not lose media attention until it started shouting. The louder they shout, the less they are noticed.

Ever heard of "crying in the wilderness". Give me two men working quitely in a garage and you will get APPLY. Give me two OWS members shouting in the park and you will get sore throats.

Sound stupid to you - so be it.

[-] 1 points by paulg5 (673) 2 years ago

If authority is a LIE we Must DENY! If we joined the silent, unheard voices we would be living under a monarcy. Direct action is the only thing that is hurd in this main streem mass media world.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

I beg to differ.

Look at how it actually plays out in all areas of life:

  1. Media coverage of direct action, simply gives the world the right to judge because now they see it for themselves.

  2. How many politicians regret opening their mouth about some issue and finding a foot in there. Direct action, whether in the form of speaking or otherwise, does not always prove to be the best approach.

  3. You surely have been in enough larger group situations to realize that the work and wisdom usually lies in the silent, unheard voices. Unheard, in the sense that they are not shouting their wisdom to the masses, but simply applying that wisdom to what is being done.

  4. It may have worked for PT B and his circus, but you see what you got there too.

  5. Then there is the matter, that to determine a LIE and thus to DENY required a judgement on the part of someone. Are you sure that you or the person that you are listening to has the wisdom to make that distinction or are you prepared to go it on your own.

Personally, if I wanted to make in impact, I would initially get my act together. The direct action would then only be a report of what had been done.

But to each his own, jump in there with both feet if you want. That, more than anything, will determine your validity as a force for good.

[-] 1 points by paulg5 (673) 2 years ago

For every unlawful action by Wall Street, Big Corporations, Government, Or police, there will be an equal and opposite unlawful action by protestors! This I am afraid is the generation that does not turn it back or whispers in fear!

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

This is not a great new concept - remember the old "eye for an eye" thing. This really isn't a new concept nor is this generation the only one with eyes.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

The real problem is that you have also set yourself up as the judge of what is unlawful, as well as, the jury of who is guilty of what you then accuse them of.

Not many sane people buy into this combination of dictatorship where you are both the judge and the jury.

[-] 1 points by paulg5 (673) 2 years ago

Corporations with assistance from government are exactly that! A distatorship that is both judge and jury, your forgetting that government and Corporations serve the people!

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Sorry, excuse me if I forget. I am rather old, you know.

What is your excuse for judging me?? as forgetful.

[-] 1 points by paulg5 (673) 2 years ago

Your are subscribing to the whole notion that protesting is unlawful, without any regard to the surcumstances that led to the protesting, maybe uninformed may have been a better word!

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Not at all. I think there is a time to protest and a time to shut up.

My main concern is that protesting over something that is self-inflicted is not really what one would call protesting as much as it is trying to get out of a bad situation that one has created for them selves. Surly, you have spent some time around children.

You can not simply state something that you dislike and they call your action a great protest. If just doesn't work to protest everything when, in fact, some of that which is protested is actually self-inflicted.

EXAMPLE: Taking out a college loan and then protesting is really protesting a self-inflected situation. It really does not impress most adults in a positive way.

[-] 1 points by paulg5 (673) 2 years ago

You really need to read more about OWS and the occupy movement. There is nothing about your statement here that I can comment on because it's so vague and off base.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Reading more about OWS would only reinforce what I have already read. Since this is a leadersless organization, without a singluar point of reference - I have to assume that anything evern remotely written by OWS membership of followership is representative of their stance on an issue.

Thanks for not commenting.

[-] 1 points by paulg5 (673) 2 years ago

vague

[-] -1 points by jamroll (6) 2 years ago

you were trying to steal a building

[-] 1 points by justone (7) 2 years ago

Again... the building is publicly owned and unused for the last five years. Occupy Oakland was trying to use it to provide free services (food, shelter, first-aid, libraries, classes, etc), on their own terms, as the city cuts hundreds of workers.

[-] -1 points by paulg5 (673) 2 years ago

I think the building was abandoned not sure, but again the police protect property and lives! They want to protect an abandoned building fine protect the BUILDING board it up. If it's an eye sore the owner has the responsibility to maintain it! The police do not have the right to gas, pepper spray, percussion bomb, and shoot people with rubber bullets because they SUSPECT that they might occupy a building three blocks away! Ridiculous, anyone who believes this is OK in AMERICAN needs their head examined!

[+] -5 points by America921 (161) 2 years ago

I do believe you must get a permit to protest in Oakland. I know in Chicago you have to but it's really easy to do. If they didn't get a permit then the police have a right to keep them in one area so they screw up traffic and cause problems.

[-] 9 points by jonygee (11) 2 years ago

why do you need a permit to protest? do you need a permit to question the ruling elite as well?

[-] 1 points by BannedForTruth (233) from Christiana, TN 2 years ago

Along that line of thinking, why do you need a permit to hunt and forage? Do you need a permit to live?

[-] 0 points by i8jomomma (80) 2 years ago

in this country.................yes..............you also need a permit to take a shit

[-] 1 points by BannedForTruth (233) from Christiana, TN 2 years ago

Just keep this in mind when even more people are starving. Why is it illegal to feed myself? Seriously if you want to wake people up just ask them this question.

[-] 0 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

Even if you get a hunting or fishing license (which costs $) you're legally restricted by the number of animals that you can kill per season! Protecting wildlife is great and all, but these restrictions make it unreasonably burdensome for someone to gather their own food supply.

[-] 1 points by BannedForTruth (233) from Christiana, TN 2 years ago

Ever seen a movie set in mid-evil times like robin hood? The bad kings made it illegal to hunt, it is based on reality and people fought back. Now many accept fascism in the name of fluffy and cuddly things.

[-] 1 points by flip (6432) 2 years ago

give them time - they are working on it!

[+] -5 points by America921 (161) 2 years ago

Its so the police can be there to make sure everything is safe and that no one bothers your protest. Its also that they know where you will be going and everyone remains safe. It makes perfect sense. There hasn't been a requisition for a protest that's been turned down in Chicago.

[-] 2 points by owsleader2038 (-10) 2 years ago

Free Speech and protesting is not a right, its a privilege, this is why you must have a permit, but to buy a permit you must be rich.

Welcome to the NEW USA, where ONLY the rich can speak or protest.

[-] 6 points by BigTim1977 (29) 2 years ago

Nowhere in the Constitution does it say "the right of the people to peaceably assemble, with a permit" Permit laws are a way to violate the Constitution under the guise of law. Your understanding of the spirit and letter of the law is quite wanting. Noone needs a permit to exercise their God given and Constitutionally guaranteed rights

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[-] -2 points by America921 (161) 2 years ago

You don't need one but in order to be recognized as a true protest you need one. But if you want just go protest you can without a permit. The permit just allows you to march through the streets and help keep peace and everyone safe. So don't insult me and my understanding of the law. I know it very well and unlike many today I would die to defend the constitution.

[-] 3 points by BigTim1977 (29) 2 years ago

Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither. What is a "true protest"? Seriously, if you would die to defend the Constitution, you'd be against Unconstitutional measures like these permit laws.

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[-] 1 points by jamroll (6) 2 years ago

a permit? you have the permission to protest already - it's in your damn constitution! lol

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[-] 6 points by JenFlores (6) 2 years ago

Who's the dictator that thinks its okay to stop lawful dissent?

[-] 1 points by Kirby (104) 2 years ago

That would be the mayor.

[-] 5 points by MikePeake (4) 2 years ago

Please see my page assembling Quan's lies, proof of pressure from her local 1%, etc.

http://occupyobservations.blogspot.com/2012/01/oakland-officials-caught-in-lies-about.html

[-] 2 points by GarnetMoon (424) 2 years ago

What about agents provocateur initiating the violence??

[-] 1 points by PoIemarchus (56) 2 years ago

No need for them. OWS official press releases do a great job of inciting violence. Why bother looking at Fox when you can just look at this very website?

http://occupywallst.org/article/solidarity-sunday/

Look at the wonderful press release above. At a time when Fox news and other conservative media outlets accuse Occupy of being violent because of the actions of the black bloc, OWS publishes a news article with the headline "Wear Black Fight Back" placed just above an image featuring a nice explosion just under the word "cops". Interestingly, a closer look at the image reveals that the explosion was added using an image processing software.

Awesome marketing tactics! Way awesome. Even stranger, when one reports this issue earnest Occupy protesters who claim to promote non-violence scoff at this criticism by calling it trollish. Cult-like behavior. Follow OWS leaders 100%. Don't criticize buddy, that's real bad. Just do what they say. They know best.

Are you wearing black now? How does that work? Do you blend in nicely with the black bloc?

[-] 4 points by connectc (5) 2 years ago

The police look like the SS in 1940s Germany! Being the police are part of the 99%, there actions prove, you can be blinded by what you believe..

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[-] 4 points by hvncb (24) 2 years ago

A government of,by and for the people is a good illusion. If it were, the police could not touch any of the people...wake up!

[-] 4 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

I've spent a lot of years in Oakland and it is a great city but still a city of sociopolitical disparity. My guess is that mayor Quan is in over her head and seeking advice from the wrong people. As for those in the Occupy movement, they have been beset on many sides and are truly trying to be inclusive. There are those in the Black Bloc who firmly believe that their tack is justified since their is so much violence and oppression coming from the police, and there is. Do not make the mistake of thinking that Occupy Oakland is wholly for Black Bloc action as they are not. However they are also being terrorized by OPD as well as officers providing mutual aid who see Oakland as a place to freely terrorize citizens. Consider this video showing the provocation of a stampede by the police where people are surrounded on all sides and told to disperse with the threat of tear gas canisters to the head, beatings and potential hospitalization, it is not unreasonable that they scattered as the police closed in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pnjDSfwkPY Rather than judging Oakland from a distance and condemning them to isolation, if you believe in solidarity, offer help or go there. There are people in Oakland who are struggling in a much more difficult situation than most of the country, consider that before you condemn them. (I speak in solidarity for my former neighbors and friends)

[-] 1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

I don't think anyone is condemning people for scattering when the police moved in. It is the destruction of property and flag burning that people are condemning.

Condoning those acts in the name of 'inclusivity' insures that they will receive less support, not more.

[-] 2 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

I think it might be wise to look in to the actual workings of Occupy Oakland before assuming that the group condones the acts. It is a much more complicated issue than this. Also, consider that the strata of the world-wide Occupy movement ranges from those who are merely not as well off as they used to be, to those who are truly clinging to the cliff's edge with their last desperate attempt to stay alive. For many, this is not a circumstance where they can just go to the comfort of their home and ignore the situation as they may have no home. We often judge from relative comfort that such a person is irresponsible or lazy to reassure ourselves that this would not happen to us but we are learning more and more that here in the US, this is not so. So we judge a group for not excluding another group due to their actions. Consider though that this group that outsiders decide to condemn did not fire a tear gas canister to the head of a vet, they did not beat another vet until he needed hospitalization due to organ damage; they broke windows, burned a flag and knocked over a model of a building. Were I to condemn, I would spend my energy condemning the former more than the latter. [Though, admittedly I would ask that the Black Bloc stop doing what they are doing, I still would not turn my back on them.]

[-] 3 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

A failure to condemn those actions certainly gives the appearance that they are condoned. I know people are hurting and hurting badly. I condemn these actions because the situation is dire, the needs are urgent and these types of actions set the movement back months if not years.

Look, I do condemn the actions of the police. I have enough energy to condemn both, but I am getting very tired of hearing 'the police were worse' as an excuse for these counterproductive actions. If you continue on this course, people will suffer more and suffer longer. I don't want to see that happen. People struggling to survive can't afford to indulge these adolescent temper tantrums.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I don't condone the violence in this movement, but I do understand it, and thanks to BGB I have even more insight. We are just waking up to the injustices in our system, 'they' have been victims of egregious injustices for years, decades even. This movement has many fronts from grandmas who stuff junk mail in their credit card offer envelopes and send them back...to young people occupying DC building a tent of dreams...to grandpas like me taking weekly trips to NY to perform acts of civil disobedience in the hopes that my children and grandchildren can live in a better world....to people paying off their credit cards, and closing their bank accounts and joining credit unions. It goes on and on too.

Occupy can easily survive anything like what may have happened in Oakland, and might well happen again. It simply has become too multi-faceted to crush and it has a plethora of determined people that will NEVER go back to the way it was. Considering the OPD's long history of police brutality, and corruption.......and a California Supreme Court ruling making it more difficult to prosecute police wrong-doing....I will give my empathy and support to the occupy people. SOLIDARITY OCCUPY OAKLAND !

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

You may want to look at my original post. I am not on the course you presume will foster suffering. I have neither perpetrated these things, nor do I condone them. If you do not want to see them happen, offer assistance. If you do not want to offer assistance, at least look into the situation a little more to understand it. Here's another report of it from the OO eye view: http://www.politicalfailblog.com/2012/01/occupy-oaklands-j28-move-in-day.html

[-] 2 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

Thanks for directing me to that account. I had suspected that these were agents provocateurs and that account seems to back that up.

Whether those in city hall were blac bloc or agents provocateurs, failure to condemn their actions will hurt Occupy. What could I do to try to prevent these things from happening in Oakland? I am working within my local GA to adopt rules of non-violence.

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

Thank you for working with your local GA. This is a great thing and shouldn't go unrecognized. You're welcome re: the link, there are many more that help shore up that same perspective. I guess my only suggestion re: what to do would be to offer a word of support for those who are also working in Oakland to adopt rules of non-violence. Energy toward what you would want to build up rather than energy toward what you would want to tear down (IMHO) is in congruity with solidarity within the movement. (FWIW)

[-] 2 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

"Energy toward what you would want to build up rather than energy toward what you would want to tear down (IMHO) is in congruity with solidarity within the movement. (FWIW)"

Very wise and well said.

Does OO have a forum other than Facebook (I don't do facebook)?

I'm also thinking maybe we could form some sort of network among Occupies and Occupiers who advocate non-violent civil disobedience.

Locally, it seems that those of us over 50 are more likely to take a hard stance against destructive acts. Perhaps it is because we are old enough to remember how the destructive actions of a few set back the anti-war movement.

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

Another perspective from a self-described privileged woman: http://hellaoccupyoakland.org/police-brutality-my-experience-and-learning/

[-] 2 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

I'm so glad she wrote that. Speaking as a middle class, white woman myself, it was a shock for me when a police officer was unimpressed by my calm, respectful assertion of my constitutional rights and tackled and handcuffed me. I remembering wondering how they must treat poor, minority, people if that's what they do to middle class, middle aged, white ladies. It probably isn't pretty.

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

My mother, who was very politically involved in the 60's and 70's told me of the first time she was provoked by the police. She was raised in a well to do family in San Francisco and never had a thought of the police being anything other than heroic defenders of justice. She learned very quickly that this was not the case for many. I was given a very different message about the police as a child, though I do know of some officers who are very just, I do not presume that a badge equates to an ethical wearer. I hope that more people are exposed to fact that justice is not equally served and just because someone is arrested for something does not mean they are guilty of it.

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

I am not on this site [rather I -=do=- use Facebook and suffer the consequences] but it might point you in the right direction:

http://occupyoakland.org/

As for the non-violent civil disobedience SIG for the Occupy movement, I am sure there is one however I do not know where that might be. Maybe a search of this website forum might result in something like that?

[thanks for the compliment BTW ... it is a process of learning and reflecting for me and there are times when I forget that rule of thumb so discussions like this help me to remember it too. thanks for that]

Also, I am under 50 but have experienced the range of consequences re: violence and non. I think it takes some good self assessment skills and maybe some mirror neurons to reach that point. Patience and consideration have been good tools in my repertoire for appealing to those who prefer destruction [both physical and social] though I can't cling to their conversion as some desperately cling to it as a form of power.

[-] 2 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

The desperation of the people of Oakland is also felt everywhere else, maybe to a lesser degree. i stand in solidarity with you and the other frustrated people of Oakland. We need to have the same plan. Success depends on organizing numbers and using democracy to win.

A commitment to a nonviolent revolution will eventually give us the numbers we need to win. Gandhi and MLK showed us the way. We have the just cause. Violence sets us back and the plan is to be confident of victory so we never need to display violence. When we have the power of numbers as we will when discomfort grows, we will eventually win.

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

I agree that it is felt elsewhere but maybe less so in the same way. FWIW I am no longer in Oakland [just in case that was not clear] I agree with democracy and numbers but I do not agree regarding the same plan. For example, Oakland is not Wall Street. Oakland has its own unique injustices and needs as does New York, as does Detroit, as does Athens. This is not to say that Oaklanders, Athenians, Detroit[se?] and New Yorkers should not support one another. We all have some common needs.

I agree with the nonviolent agenda, I am a Buddhist and vehemently agree, though I would not turn a cold shoulder to those who have not reached that conclusion yet. Their struggle is at least, equally difficult and I hold their pain in my heart. Violence -does- in fact set us back but remember that the violence is beset upon Oaklanders and for decades the rest of America did not care. Now that Oakland is part of the Occupy movement, this violence is evident on the national scene. It is mostly perpetrated by the police (as it has been in the past) but responded to now by a lesser violence from the Black Bloc. The nation focuses on the lesser violence; the breaking of windows, the burning of flags, while the police there have terrorized, brutalized and murdered for decades under the safe umbrella that the media has given them. That is to say that Oakland is full of violent criminals. Yes, there is crime in Oakland and some of that is from predators but some of it is manipulated and provoked by a very corrupt police force. Do not put Oakland in a box. Do not fall for the stereotype that the media puts on Oakland out of laziness.

This place is a place of struggle because the nation allows it to be. The nation forgets it the same way it forgets Detroit. These places are abandoned as if they are part of the third world. The rest of the US thinks of them as places to avoid and because of that, local officials in both cities are allowed to get away with many things. What we are experiencing now is a broadening of the injustices felt in these two cities. The injustices perpetrated in these place are now experienced in other places and this is why the 99% is awakening. If we are not more vigilant we will experience more of the injustices suffered in the third world. It will keep growing if we do not collectively fight it in solidarity. This includes also fighting for our sisters and brothers in the third world.

As much as you might think others feel the same injustices as in Oakland, this is mostly not so. It is also not so that Oakland feels the injustices in Afghanistan. Our safety is dependent on fighting for Oaklanders and Afghans as well as Somalis and the people of Burma.

Seem overwhelming? It is but we can't judge those who struggle if we are not willing to strive with them and the infection of injustice spreads as long as we are willing to allow it to exist anywhere.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Thank You for your valuable insights. They helped me write my second post here.

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

You bet. I feel like I can't take too much credit for it though. I am merely relating my take on the perspectives and experiences of the peaceful community builders within Occupy Oakland. They're struggling hard and trying their best.

[-] 1 points by TheIllusionCalledMoney (56) 2 years ago

Very well said. Sometimes it is frustrating to see history repeating itself over and over, with people seemingly unable to see it. You also touched upon a very important point; not only is the goal to unite the 100% in the US, but as important to do so in the world. The human species is one organism. You cannot save "the US" while letting the rest of the world crash and burn. As much of a bitter pill for some to swallow, patriotism is a disease. There is no best country in the world. Rather, there is the world and we are one. As Carl Sagan so eloquently put it, "A new consciousness is developing which sees the earth as a single organism and recognizes that an organism at war with itself is doomed. We are one planet.” That organism is not America, it is the human species. That was written in 1980. Speaking of history repeating itself . . .

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

Thank you.

I think I see the spirit of your point re: patriotism. For my part I am more a subscriber of the salad bowl construct of humanity than the melting pot. I am a patriot but not a supremacist. I believe we all have unique gifts to offer and our identity does not necessarily stop us from that.

It is interesting that you bring up Carl Sagan as his wife, Ann Druyan piqued my interest when she spoke at the Salk Institute about in-group parity and out-group hostility. It is fascinating to me to see how we categorize 'us' and 'them', I prefer a big 'us' and no 'them'.

Stephen Batchelor once cautioned about the metaphor of humanity as one organism. He said once we use this metaphor, we will begin categorizing some people as the brains, some as the heart and so on until some people become the tonsils or the rotten tooth, etc.. Even in the Occupy movement we can see separation and stratification that pops up here and there, even though there are great efforts to be egalitarian. I am not sure I have an answer to that conundrum other than to remind myself that the essence of my agenda is to regard everyone as an 'us' and query my own interactions as they happen to try to make it so. I agree, history can repeat itself and we do have a task ahead of us regarding righting the repeated wrongs.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I remember reading about a political science professor in Cairo saying, "If you would have told me five years ago that this generation was going to bring democracy to Egypt, I would have laughed".......me too about this generation in our country. I am so glad we were both wrong.

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

My own tack (at least attempted one at which I am not perfect) is to try to do what is right and hope for but not cling to a positive outcome.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

That is a little disheartening to hear you say that. Although being a realist (or liking to see myself as one) I cannot see how we could ever continue, or ever go back to the way it is/was.

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

Maybe I should clarify: For my own part, causality/dependent arising means we are never in a state of 'was'. As a Buddhist, the primary practice is to relinquish clinging. This does not mean desire nothing or do nothing but rather do not grasp so firmly to that desire that it imbues suffering. Of course I am not a perfect Buddhist, I still cling at times. I will work toward an ethical, equitable and just future regardless of outcome because '...These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness.'

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yes, I know they are and I admire them so much. Check out my second post near top and you will see that. You are a much better writer though.

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

I think I like words too much. Simple and to the point minimalism is probably something I should strive for. I read your post. Very nice.

[-] 1 points by shifty2 (117) 2 years ago

I protest in Fl for the in-justness in America not the world, I find it hard to think that other than a very few of our allies could care less about our country, Most of the World hates us. And in some instances with good reason in my opinion. Fix the USA first. We have spent enough money trying to fix the World and to buy allies. One mans opinion.

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

I don't disagree with 'fixing' selves first. Literal self, then community, then government/ society, then humanity, then world. Do not obsess however so much on self that the rest is forgotten.

[-] 2 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

You are standing up for principles, which is great. But there needs to be a trade off if Occupy is to truly gain support of the 99%. There are millions of Americans that will see the damage and the burning of the America flag and feel like the protesters should have been treated even more harshly.

[-] 2 points by shifty2 (117) 2 years ago

Read the posts, people are against OWS because of the violence in the movement, And the movement continues to do things to provoke the cops, Like taking over vacant buildings etc. This is not peaceful protesting. Marching with signs is peaceful.

[-] 2 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

I think the weight of things is disproportionate if one considers occupying an abandoned building to be violating something. It is abandoned and the occupiers in Oakland hope to do something beneficial with it. It is property and in our super materialist world, property becomes an entity that can be violated even if abandoned. Remember when violated was something done to a person, violence was not done to property. Damage was done to property if it were damaged. I will concede that an exception would be if it were a home, where someone would find refuge or raise children, but this was never a home, rather a location owned by a very large corporation not known to be very empathetic to human need, though they do try to put out an image of such.

Imagine seeing a perfectly good space that can be utilized by people who desperately need a space. Imagine there are many, many spaces like this but this construct stops those who desperately need to use it. The construct of cash. Hoarders of cash demand cash from the cashless in order for the cashless to try to build a community. So those within a community that has suffered greatly see a building that is occupied by nobody. They have resided within a system that has manipulated and abused them for a long time.

These people do not lash out with guns or decide to rob banks. No, they decide that they want to set up a community center. There are figureheads and talking heads who are mouthpieces for the hoarders of cash who would like to convince you that creating a community center is an act of violence but consider in that same light, taking the homes away from these same people, jobs and rights too is an act of violence. If for years, the government your parents had made a pact with, the one you had abided by is now blatantly abusing and publicly misrepresenting you, you might think 'Okay, if you're no longer going to help us, we are going to try to be the helpers.' Is this so violent?

A community center, this is what they were marching for. They did not sneak, this was not done in secret. This was a publicly announced act, an act of defiance yes, but not a barbarous, abusive act.

As for provocation of cops, I encourage you to check the links I posted. Provocation was on the part of the police, not the other way around. And for what it is worth, even when there is not a march, the cops and the city government are provoking the Occupy movement and trying to discredit them at every opportunity. With lies and deception.

[-] 2 points by shifty2 (117) 2 years ago

It's still owned by someone and you can't just go out and take over a vacant building for any purpose I wish you could their are a couple of nice vacant buildings in my town. When people make plans to take this action they know there will be conflicts with the cops, Just a way to get publicity. I protest in Fl with a group on Sat we have a meeting one hour then stand on the main st in our small town, We protest to for the betterment of America. No profanity or radical actions allowed. Smile at the people flipping us off, Were just trying to get the message to the people.

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

[sorry for the late reply, I actually posted this reply but not to the correct post ... multitasking is not my friend]

It is owned by someone, this is true. Expanding on that, and having to correct myself in my own assumptions. The convention center is owned by the people of Oakland though named not after the health insurance giant but rather the man who founded the steel company from which it sprang.

So the people of Oakland own this center and have paid and are paying for it while it sits fallow and there are many in need of its shelter and potential. As with Detroit and other cities in the Us, there are people in power who funnel Oakland's money to places where the more wealthy benefit and those who desperately need it are neglected. I can elaborate on this issue if you'd like but Oakland is a complex conundrum wherein people in the hills and big businesses reap the benefits and people in the flat lands suffer from food deserts [at a major port in a food producing state of all places] as well as other injustices.

There are people in need who have attempted to lobby, negotiate and work with the city to create a livable space but apathy, graft and greed stand in their way. So after decades of working and trying and after a wave of bank foreclosures and no justice for the illegal actions of the banking community, those fighting for Oakland have had enough. Were the rest of the US suffering as much, there would be stronger actions there as well.

So Oakland has also been trying to send a message to the people, Oaklanders have also been trying to work within the system but you do not see 'Citizens of Oakland Co-operate with Local Government' in the national media. You only see those moments when something horrible happens and people react to the injustice strongly. Most people in the US do not know that Occupy Oakland has a team of people who canvassed the local businesses to ensure that these businesses were not losing income due to the demonstrations. Rather everyone else in the US hears Mayor Quan's claim that businesses are suffering. We also hear that Occupiers have ruined Frank Ogawa Plaza's grass and it will require thousands of dollars to repair it. What everyone else does not hear is about how Quan ordered that the sprinklers be turned on to flood the grounds. The sad consequence is that the city is killing Oakland's most symbolic oak tree. A Coastal Live Oak that's peripheral root system is swimming in a soup that will foster fungus and currently California is fighting a plague of fungus causing Sudden Oak Death. The US does not hear of the efforts that OO made to ensure that the trees there were cared for, we only hear that they hurt the grass.

Oaklanders are highly misrepresented to the rest of the country and this same long used tradition is also being used against Occupy Oakalnders as well. Imagine having your heart in bettering your community and taking action to make those changes only to be ignored, manipulated, disparaged, stifled and slandered by those who have all the keys. Imagine that happening year after year. This is not something that has only happened in the last couple years, it has been a chronic disease the citizens of the flats have dealt with for decades.

So when summary judgment is made of these people, I tend to wonder if the judgers had to walk in the shoes of those living in Oakland, if the judges would be so critical.

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

Again I think that it is easy to say from the outside of things and I do personally believe in the nonviolence tack but it is not cut and dry. The Occupy movement doesn't have the support of the 99% because much of the population doesn't seek to understand things. Rather it takes minimal effort and generally considers the corporate media to be reliable. We know that things are a little more complex and the media manipulates our emotions. This is happening with Oakland as well and people cling to a burned symbol and broken glass because it is easier to reject and abandon than to engage and assist.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

Or maybe it is because that as bad as things are for some people, there are still plenty of people who are perfectly comfortable. Where is their motivation to get behind something so radical? Even if they recognize the current system is deeply flawed, isn't the devil you know better than the devil you don't know?

[-] 1 points by TheIllusionCalledMoney (56) 2 years ago

Excellent, insightful comments Mooks/BGB.I think we need to create a new word to describe this duality. First, as we can see, many are still very much asleep. How else can you explain how people can condemn Occupy for trying to liberate vacant buildings in support of those who have nothing, while in the same blink of an eye they have already forgotten about the trillions of our tax dollars that the banks have stolen, and of course continue to steal. So, let's see. I'm personally having difficult what is the bigger atrocity, liberation of a vacant building for those in need, or "borrowing" trillions of our dollars. Let me give that some thought.

My belief is that there will not be a true "wake up" of humanity until the monetary system collapses, which will happen very soon.I wonder if when that happens, the same people denouncing Occupy will be telling us they were in solidarity with us all the time. Remember, once the monetary system collapses, well, no one will have money, so there will no longer be a 99% and a 1%. Just a 100%.

What a joyous day that will be.....

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

I think it presumes that the only choices are devils. I do not invest in such an idea. I agree that some prefer to follow more than reflect and act but a somnambulant life is not truly a life. Yes there are people who deal with a devil in structure and conformity and fall in line condemning rather than step up and engage. There are some though who prefer to engage the human and try to dissuade them from tactics labeled devilish.

[-] 3 points by AllOverIt (100) 2 years ago

Why can't the Mayor talk to the protesters and ask what is needed and how she can help? Why don't local business leaders come out and offer spaces for their use? Why can't the Mayor get people together and work out solutions with negotiation instead of force? Why is the ONLY communication military style policing for a population obviously in need of better government?

[-] 3 points by GarnetMoon (424) 2 years ago

The reason is that the mayor works for the 1%, plain and simple...

[-] 1 points by AllOverIt (100) 2 years ago

It certainly would seem so.

[-] 1 points by TheIllusionCalledMoney (56) 2 years ago

She stole Bloomberg's playbook on this one.

[-] 0 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

Why would businesses allow Occupy to occupy their space?

[-] 2 points by AllOverIt (100) 2 years ago

If they have unused spaces, why not? Often the Bureau of Land Management has unoccupied spaces that are being neglected. These could be granted to Occupiers for their purposes.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

But won't that me they have to give some space to any other organization that wanted it?

[-] 1 points by AllOverIt (100) 2 years ago

I think it means they can create terms and agreements that define the parameters of each agreement; such as, this property has been appropriated to the use of the Occupy Movement to acknowledge that this portion of the community of Oakland has no means to procure such space and the space is not in use for any other purpose... or something like that.

[-] 0 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

What about the neo-nazi portion of the population. I doubt they have any space in public space in Oakland. Why not give them some too? What is fair is fair.

[-] 1 points by AllOverIt (100) 2 years ago

Mooks, think this through on your own please. As a parent, if one kid is behaving badly he doesn't get the same rewards as the kid that behaves well. And, the whole community can be involved in a discussion about who should get rewards in a given location. The system needs to get rid of stupid ideas of what is fair - like funneling most of the wealth to 1% of the population no matter how badly they behave.

[-] 3 points by Riderofkarma (3) 2 years ago

http://www.thecorporation.com/blog.cfm?view=BLOG_POST&blog_id=419 My report here details the LIES told by the Interim Police Chief the last time they attacked peaceful protestors. There was NO PROOF to substantiate the claims made that Occupiers started the violence by throwing things at the police.

In fact, the Oakland PD is now mere weeks away from going into Federal Receivership for the continued use of excessive force in the face of their decade long mandate to change their ways. It is no coincidence that this is the only police department using explosives against non-violent protests. They have brutalized the people of Oakland for too long. And they have a lot of nerve accusing us of using "IEDs" and slapping us with the "Domestic Terrorist" label.

The Oakland PD is out of control to the extent that control is being taken out of the incapable hands of Mayor Quan. The brutality, corruption, and abuse of this broken police force has oppressed the people of this city for over a decade, and must stop now! The people of Oakland deserve better.

[-] 2 points by jwg (3) 2 years ago

Keep it up OO. Your beautiful. I love your sheilds. State-of-the-art occupy. we look to you for inspiration.

[-] 2 points by paulg5 (673) 2 years ago

Years ago you might have 4 or 5 homeless people occupy an abandoned building, maybe for as long as months at a time and go unnoticed. No more, the economic conditions have obviously changed dramatically, so instead of 4 or 5 homeless we have 4 or 5 hundred. So what is Oakland's responsibility to their homeless, what part do city officials play, shooting; bombing and pepper spraying people that only need food and a home? Shouldn't the city be at least ethically responsible for it's citizens who have lost their homes and livelihoods through no fault of their own? Shouldn't the city have tried to work with ows and the owner of the abandoned property to maybe allow homeless to occupy it until warmer weather? Personally I think black bloc is a legitimate tactic given the hostile situation with police in Oakland.

[-] 2 points by WhittierDiva (2) 2 years ago

I have a question that I am sure has been hashed about, but I have not heard an explanation for. Why has Occupy not redefined what occupation means in the face of government and corporate collusion to deny free speech rights. When the Montgomery Bus Boycott began, the government attempted to quash it by claiming that the organized carpools meant to get people to work were an illegal form of commerce (!) and attempted to ban them. Had they succeeded, the movement of that day was prepared to walk to work. They would not be deterred by government trickery. So if camping is not allowed, why can't plazas be occupied in shifts, so that they it is not "camping," but people walking in a park. Why attempt to occupy and empty building when the result will be another eviction? Sure, they will they can call a perpetual march loitering, but wouldn't that force the courts to decide? Perhaps groups of people can symbolically carry tents on their shoulders as they march within the park. I am sure this has already been tried, but again, I have not seen it covered on the news...

[-] 2 points by occupiedoutlaw (5) 2 years ago

Why do some people believe the only way to make changes through titles and weapons of violence? Part with your primal ways...you are no longer a a caveman or simple animal...part with your fear and insecurities...

[-] 1 points by i8jomomma (80) 2 years ago

look at how they are handling it in other countries.............when they say they want the people that is corrupting the government out .............they mean it or they will remove them themselves............when we say we want the corrupt people out................all we do is say it..................we don't do anything to remove them if they won't leave civilly ...........basically to some people all they understand is violence..........it proves that you ain't to be fucked with

[-] 2 points by NiceLovelyDay (55) 2 years ago

You never read about the abuse of power by the mayor and the police department. For example, the disproportionate numbers of police. All you read about is about the few who vandalized. It is as if nothing else happened. Congratulations for keeping your cool, to the many who did. Arresting 400 people for protesting doesn't even make sense on the face of it. A better world is possible.

[-] 2 points by neizuc (52) 2 years ago

How is not allowing OWS to seize property for a community center comparable to Pinochet's killing of over 3000 people?

Who has Mayor Quan, a liberal activist herself, killed exactly? The level of hyperbole is ridiculous.

[-] 1 points by bubul (18) 2 years ago

The editors aren't saying that the US government is as repressive as Pinochet's. They're saying that the root causes of the conflict in inequality and economic injustice are the same. And we do have really extreme disparities of wealth, the incarceration rate has topped every other society in history besides the USSR under Stalin, etc.

[-] 2 points by openeyed (2) 2 years ago

this is utterly disgusting. The number one reason all this is happening is the trillions of wasted dollars our country has spent under the huge pretense of "keeping our country safe" or "protecting our freedom". This has always been the marketing spin of the extremist regime called the Pentagon and our overbloated Military industrial complex of which at least 5 of our founding fathers warned against. We as a nation need to REALLY PUSH BACK on Washington leaders and make them understand that any good our wars ever did for our country in the past is past. We've manufactured a "terrorist attack" on 9/11 internally to fuel these wars for profits into pertpetrator pockets, perhaps in conjunction with "extremist Islam", but even if it were some flat out attack they were "defending their nation" after USA shipped missiles around the globe for profits. As James Madison quoted "If tyranny & oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy"

[-] 2 points by californianpatriot (2) 2 years ago

As a supporter of the Occupy Movement, I am gratefull that we have all had the benefit of allowing us to grow larger, all without major conflict. I fully support continued non-violent action, as that has always been the only way true progress and change have successfully occured. Examples are Ghandi, Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela, The Civil Rights Movement and others. These are just a few historical examples and I hope that 20 years from now, we can look back and see that the Occupy Movement followed a similar path. Continued luck and success to you all! DeepStar

[-] 2 points by Cloudsplitter (2) 2 years ago

Start a recall on the Major, and the city council members who support her, or better Run your own slate and try to take over the town then replace the whole police department, fire the lot, and start over again.

[-] 2 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

Start getting signatures for a RECALL of Mayor Quan?

[-] -2 points by OaklandWesB (-3) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Why?.. who would you rather see as the mayor... who do you think could balance these issues better? and who could, would want to after be threaten with a recall everytime somebody gets there feelings hurt... also who should pay for a recall?

[-] 4 points by jonygee (11) 2 years ago

feelings hurt? what about a teargas canister to the head?

[-] 0 points by Kirby (104) 2 years ago

Ouch!!!

[-] 0 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

I'm not living in Oakland...but I wouldn't want someone who doesn't represent me to continue holding a position of power over me.

I don't think we have enough recalls, IMO. We should be 'firing' people in office that aren't doing what we want them to do.

[-] 2 points by Quark (236) 2 years ago

Wow! Soon the UN will have to come here and liberate us from the oligarchy regime. World Solidarity Forever! With each injustice, we grow stronger.

[-] 0 points by America921 (161) 2 years ago

The UN is the U.S. so good luck with that.

[-] 1 points by Quark (236) 2 years ago

I was joking. Thanks for the good luck.

[Removed]

[-] -2 points by Kirby (104) 2 years ago

They'll squish opposition like a damn bug on the sidewalk. Quan is the people's mayor. Fuck the UN. They don't give a shit about anyone.

[-] 1 points by howl (3) 2 years ago

"...fired bullets.".

Bullshit.

Exaggerations like this are one reason why the OWS movement died.

[-] 1 points by mindscrape69 (6) 2 years ago

I would just like to say that it is a shame that I cannot post on this website a very revealing documentary called "The Corporation" . Any one reading this I would watch it. I saw it on Netflix. I am sure it can be obtained at any library. It opened my eyes as to the REAL powers that occupy wall street is trying to address. Corporate greed that has already shown their general disregard for human life and liberty. This protest may well be the very catalyst that will speed things along The "1%" plan to reduce population drastically. Every time i come back to this site I see the police violence worsen. One day it will be a real bullet and real bloodshed and America will flip out. Yes a civil war we cannot win.

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

This is a very good response to those who hold active hostility toward those in the black bloc by David Graeber.

"Concerning the Violent Peace-Police An Open Letter to Chris Hedges In response to “The Cancer in Occupy,” by Chris Hedges.

I am writing this on the premise that you are a well-meaning person who wishes Occupy Wall Street to succeed. I am also writing as someone who was deeply involved in the early stages of planning Occupy in New York...."

http://www.nplusonemag.com/concerning-the-violent-peace-police

[-] 1 points by MAGreams (1) 2 years ago

music unites. http://soundcloud.com/johnlennonfull2/99-we-are (i read the rules)

[-] 1 points by wijaf (1) 2 years ago

The cops are getting more and more violent to provoke peaceful protestors to act violent. This is their tactic to suppress protests. More kettling, more tear gas, more bullets, more grenades, more bombs.

[-] 1 points by DaveofKan (1) 2 years ago

Deceased seer/psychic Jean Dixon fortold of events to come...she said "There will be riots like you wouldn't believe." And if that happens she also warned people..."Run for your lives!"

I remember her writings and they seem to be headed in the direction of the protests. It could very well be riots and injury and death.

[-] 1 points by jimevanhoe1 (55) 2 years ago

THE FREAK PETAEUS makes Charlie Manson look like an angel read the details below and learn just how screwed up Petaeus is.

this is the way it is

The US Attorney General, Eric Holder is to resign and Chris Swecker appointed. Swecker will move on prosecuting Wall Street executives and George Bush Sr & Jr, HSBC and Obama either fires Petaeus or arrest him for drug operations in Afghanistan or Obama steps down as President. The time is now....the Bush Bull Shit stops NOW! Occupy all members start today to follow the Bush Family members and their cronies and double the effort on Petaeus. I have been personal threatened Via a Blue Screen on closing my computer that READ and I quote Petaeus and the CIA.....

      Both notices read  "I said stop or your dead, Jim Evanhoe"

Nice guy Petaeus...with thugs like the Bush Family and Screw Head Petaeus they make Arab Terrorists look like Saints............the absolute real threat to America is..............Petaeus and the Bush Family.......

ALL OCCUPY MEMBERS FROM BEN & JERRY'S TO HUSTON AND WASHINGTON DC ........follow Petaeus and the Bush Family let us all know who and what there doing right here on line. Employees of the CIA and the Carlyle Group who belive in the real America not the perverted BS created by Petaeus and the Bush Family....watch them and document there movements and their cronies...........it is time to Charge them and Convict them all.

Not only does John Cruz's book "World Banking World Fraud" document this go back to the Bank known as Deak Perera and the CIA involvement...........

So we have......... CIA & George Bush...Central America Drug Cartels & Money Laundering through Panamanian Banks and we now have CIA & Petaeus and Afghanistan Drug Cartels and Money Laundering through HSBC

Rollingstone Magazine writer Michael Hastings documents Petaeus involvement with the largest Heroin drug lord in Afghanistan. And I am sure Laura Logan of CBS can also document these facts as well.

Remember who rules the Skies over Afghanistan the US Military...time to stop the threats Petaeus and time for the US Military & the CIA to get out the drug business and the money laundering business. PETAEUS AND BUSH ............THEIR KILLING OUR NEIGHBORHOODS OUR KIDS OUR FAMILIES OUR FUTURE.................one more kid dies of heroin or any related death it will be the end of Petaeus....the families of these children have the ABSOLUTE RIGHT to call for the prosecution and sentence of death for both Petaeus and Bush........they are Our Enemies!

Suing Petaeus in Federal Court, we my friends and family are filing a Federal Suit against Petaeus. Vincent Bugliosi is the Attorney. Bugliosi is also the author of "The Prosecution of G. W. Bush for Murder" and the book Helter Skelter - Charlie Manson. Manson was happy just killing a few socialites in L.A., Bush on the other hand killed between 600,000 and one million Iraqis, through an illegal war, founded on illegal principles, crimes against humanity, torture - war crimes and his perverted father G H Bush an equally perverted sole illegally invaded Panama killings of 5,000 of which 4,000 were civilians on December 20th, 1989, breaking International Law and US Government Policy. Both Bush Sr. & Jr. make Charlie Manson look like an angel, both Bushs are International Criminals, the world greatest perverts. Bush Sr. illegally allowed the US Military to use spent shells that had contained nuclear waste material, exploded in the 1st Iraq war, this is still killing civilians in Iraq today, Leukemia.
the book The World's Dirtiest Bank: HSBC | Republic Broadcasting Network

republicbroadcasting.org Aug 10, 2011 – Deak financed CIA adventures in Vietnam, the Mossadegh coup in Iran ... Foreign Commerce Bank of Zurich, and its US Deak Perera branch to ...

With Perverts such as Petaeus and the Bush Family running around the World deliberately creating Chaos the World needs to equally convict all of them and in my opinion put them to Death for their crimes against Humanity, destroying are neighborhoods, our children our families.

JAMES P. EVANHOE

Post Script: Stop threatening me with your blue screens you freak, Petaeus! What comes around 100% goes around!

[-] 1 points by baracalypse (1) 2 years ago

Nice solidarity fist you guys have there on your home page..... it's the same as the Communist Worker's Party fist.

Where are the "parents, families and engaged citizens" in the videos? Looks like a bunch of 18-25yo brainwashed zombies to me.

You guys should read what Van Jones, Stephen Lerner and George Soros say about you. Karl Marx would call you guys "Useful Idiots".

[-] 1 points by Szczelec27 (2) 2 years ago

It's only a matter of time before tea party and occupy start warring in my opinion.

[-] 1 points by Szczelec27 (2) 2 years ago

Actually there is a civil war looming between the right and left -- between the rightwing republican nuts like those on fox news and the presidential debates and the youth of today in America. It's only a matter of time, these two opposite world views are growing so distant I don't think they can coexist like this.

[-] 1 points by fredflintstone (1) 2 years ago

These protests will now always be in small part about bringing justice to the actions of Mayors Quan, Bloomberg, Miner, etc., who were the mayors of the control freaks of the world but not of those believing in the Constitution, the rights to habeas corpus and of Assembly, within which, we absolutely must restore or this will no longer be the United States of Washington and Jefferson.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

We need a better and smarter way to fight back. We need a smart revolution! "WAKE UP PEOPLE!” when you've had enough of this nonsense this is what you do: Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( www.revolution2.osixs.org ) "Spread the News"

[-] 1 points by jwg (3) 2 years ago

Keep it up OO. Your beautiful. I love your sheilds. State-of-the-art occupy. we look to you for inspiration.

[-] 1 points by Human42 (1) 2 years ago

Honestly people how long do you think until someone gets killed? Be it a person tazzed to death from a heart condition or a rubber bullet or gas canister to the head. When this happens and if things continue on the path you’re taking them it WILL! Life will only get worse! Is martial law, curfews and military in our cities really going to accomplish anything right now?! Do you guys really want to see what the inside of those fema camps look like? Are we all ready for riots, looting, and generally ill intended opportunistic individuals out and about? Do you think most us are really ready to survive this type of scenario? The natural order in our universe is that of order to chaos and chaos to order; and I like many of you also feel it’s time for some much needed chaos. But what if we can create this chaos without ever leaving our homes? What if we can create mass global chaos by just using our heads instead of banging our fists against a wall? All you're doing by occupying is putting yourself in the exact position they want. You're giving them the exact excuse they need to take away ALL our so called rights and make life even harder than it already is. I want change more than anyone but I believe that if something is worth doing it's worth doing right! If capitalism is what we're after to demolish than by all means lets grab it by the balls and let’s grab them tight. The only thing they care about is money so let’s take its so called value completely away. We are ALL gears in a big money producing machine and until we realize this we don’t know how much power we truly have. Every day we go to work, pay a bill, turn on the tv or a light switch every single time we buy or produce anything we’re turning our own individual gear and making the whole of the machine work. This IS consumption, this IS our life’s we ARE the slave workers of the 21st centuries global apocalyptic machine. If attention is what we’re after well we got it. So let’s use the only muscle that truly matters and take this opportunity to do something in our advantage. How about we take the responsibility into our hands, learn from the lessons of history and do something right and well thought out for once?! STOP THE GLOBAL ECONOMY! If we truly want human kind’s greatest evil “money” to end then we have to stop using it! Crying about it on the streets isn’t going to improve anything; most likely it will make matters worse. Stay home, don’t go to work, don’t go to school, don’t buy ANYTHING, don’t turn on your car or your TV, turn off the lights, turn off your cell phones, don’t leave your neighborhood, Don’t spend one more dollar. Don’t do anything except stay home, protect your own, work within your community and wait it out. Barter, grow food, fish, boil water do what ever it takes to survive. Adaptation is one of man’s greatest skills so adapt! Get EVERYONE you possibly can involved and most importantly tell them WHY! Work together and show the 1% that they need us and not us them. The only true power we have is in our number, actions and collective intellect. It’s 99 against 1 remember? We won before it started! So instead of burning it down like little children let’s shut it down like wise man.
SHUT THE GLOBAL ECONOMY DOWN! SHUT THE MACHINE DOWN!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbUxePfsoWE

[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

Voting Republican is like smoking. All you do is kill yourself and all those around you. Voting for Romney is like chain smoking, you up the ante by a million! If Romney becomes President, how long until America gets hit by a wink wink nudge nudge terrorist? Looks like all those military folks will be off to fighting a war against another made up enemy so Romney and his cronies can make trillions! Hows another 10 or 15 duties sound to those in the military who believe they are fighting for America, when really all they are doing is serving an evil master?? who has an agenda that plays on the stupidity of Americans. Stop being stupid and voting against your own self interests people!! There should only be 1% voting Republican ever--and we already know who falls in that category--and most likely its not you!!

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

none of them are a good choice, so who gets the nomination is of no consequence. On the bright side, how many people have come of age to vote in the last 4 years? so there should be at least some new votes in the primary, but no. There were almost half a million less voters in the primaries. now lets translate that to the final presidential votes... hope this makes you feel at least a little more at ease.

[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

Oh I agree richardkentgates, none of them is a good choice--butfrom my own perspective Romney is not just a monster as they all are-he makes no bones he is a monster and people still keep giving him their votes. Talk about going willingly to the slaughterhouse. Yes, I think people are fed up with the whole process and know the game is rigged--and also know the system has to be changed. Although those who have the power have fixed it this way and will not reset it for the benefit of the American people, that goes against the evil they are and serve! The people are out here crying, pleading and extremely desperate for things to be made right--but those in charge have absolutely no interest in the people. They know how to fix the game they have created and that makes everything else of absolutely no significance to them! What a bunch of disgusting pigs they are!!!

[-] 1 points by colonel (3) 2 years ago

99 percent of the american population means... republicans, democrats, libertarians, conservatives, tea partiers, and all the other political viewpoints average americans might have. Stop hating on any one group.. It makes the slogan 99 % total bs. Dont be a hypocrite. By trashing one group you are being elitist. You then have more in common with the 1%.

[-] 1 points by colonel (3) 2 years ago

99 percent of the american population means... republicans, democrats, libertarians, conservatives, tea partiers, and all the other political viewpoints average americans might have. Stop hating on any one group.. It makes the slogan 99 % total bs. Dont be a hypocrite. By trashing one group you are being elitist. You then have more in common with the 1%.

[-] 1 points by colonel (3) 2 years ago

99 percent of the american population means... republicans, democrats, libertarians, conservatives, tea partiers, and all the other political viewpoints average americans might have. Stop hating on any one group.. It makes the slogan 99 % total bs. Dont be a hypocrite. By trashing one group you are being elitist. You then have more in common with the 1%.

[-] 1 points by RockyJ (208) 2 years ago

Sorry this is a huge disappointment. NO the police do not have the right to use the force they did against "unarmed peaceful protestors."

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

Did all the parents, families, children and workers go home before the filming started? Looks like the usual hippy suspects to me.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

you know you anti OWSers would be funny if you would get some new material. Hippy, really, did you just come out of a '70s time machine. I could be insulting with more pizzazz and gusto than you and I am not even rich. I guess it shows you don't need brains to worship wealth. So are you a cheerleader or a player? I am willing to wager that you are the former.

[-] 0 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

Player? Cheerleader? I'm just your average rich guy, roll out of bed, check the markets, make a few trades if advantageous then go do whatever I want for the rest of the day. When I was a kid I would see those brokerage commercials with fancy people doing cool shit and I decided I wanted to be just like them.

And no one told me I couldn't do it, no one told me the game was rigged, no one told me I couldn't succeed because someone had more money than me, no one killed my future by training me for failure.

I know you guys don't think your future has been killed but it has. Some mornings I take the laptop and a cup of coffee and sit under my big tree to make my trades. I feel so sorry for you poor bastards.

[-] 2 points by 13lamat (2) from Sitges, CT 2 years ago

"your" big tree?? oh my some people think they will be here forever..

listen love, you don´t own the tree (still makes my day this quote..) you in reality own nothing.. you fool yourself with power roles, you don´t even own the money you make from the fading trades you are dealing with and it will come the time when you will have to cast your laptop away cause you will finally get to the point of not wanting to drag it behind you like a pet. So will be its only use then.

I do feel sorry for you man. And I call you man although you are still a sleeping man. And sorry for my english, I hope you get through the surface appearances.. that´s all you seem to care about..

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Nice try. You will probably have to try harder though to pull yourself up by trashing someone else. Keep trying, it can be a lifestyle in and of itself.

You might find that you really like it and want to get your own big tree to sit under.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

The future is what we make it. And right now I'm too interested in the present to contemplate the future. I just wish we were not in a state of war so I could morally participate in the economy. But once that blunder is put to rest, i will whoop your ass so fervently and competitively that you'll have to sell your home with a tree just to keep up. lol. have a good night. peace!

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[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 2 years ago

I have mentioned this before on several other forums. We need to consider unifying this movement after a fashion.

What would the authorities and the police do if these were not protests or marches or demonstrations but instead were picket lines used for collective bargaining?

If we all carried OWS cards, Oakland Representative for Oakland, Seattle Representative for Seattle and so we would be a loosely unified organization. Eventually the Unions would have to come out in direct support of the right to organize and for our right for collective bargaining. Eventually the Unions would refuse to cross the picket lines. Eventually the public would also follow suit and support our right to organize and for our right for collective bargaining.

In the end you will have the same results of disrupting the businesses being picketed but we could picket all Chase branches, all Courts, all City Halls, etc.... We could cover a lot of ground with a little bit of organization.

[-] 1 points by Sanc (2) 2 years ago

Be wary of the anarchists.

[-] 1 points by Sanc (2) 2 years ago

The Occupation has been infiltrated by the "anarchists." These are individuals placed amongst the occupiers by private security corporations. They are purposely violent and destructive to validate reciprocal action from the police. This tactic was used quite successfully at the G20 convention. Don't allow this to destroy our movement.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

You cannot be serious? This movement was started by anarchists and is being run by anarchists. There's no infiltration. You're too funny.

[-] 1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

Well yes, anarchists started it, but the city hall vandalism/flag burning still may have been the actions of agents provocateurs. This account would support that theory:

http://www.politicalfailblog.com/2012/01/occupy-oaklands-j28-move-in-day.html

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Who but the Occupy Oakland decided it was a good idea to invade the private property of the convention center. They had been planning this for some time. This was not some spur of the moment decision. It was conscious and thought out. Those people are out of their minds. Even if the flag burners were agent provocateurs this movement cannot distance itself from that in the eyes of the public. Because there is no leadership and therefore no accountability.

And what about this crappy News article? Another crappy News article highlighting violence. Who writes this crappy junk? Total propaganda to demonize authority and incite more violence.

"Citizens gathered together to open a community center"? They were trying to break and enter onto private property! Someone elses property.

I think I'll go "open" a bank. I'll take it upon myself to take some money from the bank, I'm going to do some good things with that money. If it's your money that I'm taking, you're not really using it right now, so you won't mind if I do, right?

This movement is on a downward spiral to nowhere. A sad waste of potential. Being mucked up by the anarchists running this thing.

The only way to change things is for more supporters to stop putting up with this crap and people to make noise about changing things.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/whats-up-with-the-various-list-of-demands/#comment-619910

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Suggest you google "excuses" and you will have more resources to refer us to.

[-] 1 points by PatrickOxOethafulm (35) 2 years ago

Terrible </3

[-] 1 points by driveSoup (1) from New Orleans, LA 2 years ago

I hear people questioning why did they try overtake a building, and the question that continues puzzling me is, of course, did no one think that maybe it was deserted and no one could just poof one into existence?

Have people forgotten what they were trying to do with the building, or does everyone think it wasn't a noble goal to turn something disused into something everyone needs?

Isn't that part of the OWS? To benefit the people by peacefully turning the world into a better place?

You shouldn't need a permit to do that.

[-] 1 points by shifty2 (117) 2 years ago

Lets all go out and find a vacant building and claim it for our own. Sorry it doesn't work that way someone owns the building, If they want to open a civic building they have to buy a building.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

You SHOULD need a permit to do that.

You are talking about an vacant building, probably vacant for a reason. We have put up with the stupid lawsuits for decades over all the crap that you want to take over - asbestos in old buildings, overcrowding in some nightclub, locked exit doors, etc.

Do you think OWS has the resources to bring an abandoned building up to some kind of code where their purposes could be carried out in a safe and sane manner.

Good grief, if you have that kind of resources - go rent a building with some class and do something worthwhile.

This hell bent run to prove that you are a victim of another part of your society is getting rather sick. If you want to self-inflict all of this evil on yourselfs, please have the courage to do so somewhere out of our sight. You are so far off your original pretended base that "left field" does not even describe, what you are doing.

[-] 1 points by somethoughts (1) 2 years ago

Can I rant for a sec? “Four months ago, the Occupy Movement showed that this historical truth has finally come home: The economic oppression by the 1% has become so egregious that it cannot exist without destroying the spirit of the American democratic system.” This statement, and the mentality therein drives me batshit crazy. It seems problematic, at best, to suggest that economic oppression by the “1%” or simply the existence of the so called 1%, and their invested disinterest in a true democracy is in any way new, or newly pervasive in this “country.” To decry the destruction of the “American democratic system” is to claim a kind of contrived nostalgia for something that has never existed. Ever. What we now call “the United States” has never been free of a tyrannical, oppressive ruling class. In fact, that is who it was “discovered” and later “founded” by. After a couple centuries of brutal colonization, genocidal expansion, enslavement, and ecological disdain, the American Revolution was fomented by a group of the wealthy, ruling elite (who were, needless to say, white and almost entirely male) who had an invested interest in quelling the rebellious energy of the numerous poverty stricken whites, the impending threat of massive, coordinated slave rebellions, and Indian hostility. Above all, the ruling elite’s biggest fear was that these marginalized and fractionalized groups would recognize each other’s mutual self interest and join forces to truly challenge and overthrow the brutal oppression from which all of them suffered greatly. The ”founding fathers” arguably made a scapegoat out of the British and by using clever and eloquent rhetoric about liberty and freedom, found a very effective way of deflecting attention from their amassed economic wealth, their racism, and their genocidal tendencies. The revolution, and simultaneous creation of the American middle class also served well to deepen the internalized prejudices, fear, and resentment that divided (and continue to divide) marginalized communities. And where does sexism fit in? Everywhere. “The American Democratic System” Is still not, nor has it ever been truly democratic, as best as I can tell. So damn the constitution because from the get go it was a tool used to control, and marginalize folks who were not white, male, and wealthy enough to own land. As long as we hold this country’s founding documents, and the douchebags who wrote them on a pedestal as beacons of emancipatory inspiration, I think we are not at all revolutionary. Surely, there are many very powerful, courageous notions that are embedded in the American constitution, and they will call for a good deal of copying and pasting. BUT when we write/sing/plant/march our new constitution, let’s not all be wealthy, white, sexist, slave owners huh? PS. I think the sentence “Across the country, people are rising up to demand a more just nation, police brutality and state violence are the only things keeping this injustice in place” Is bullshit. There are many aspects of injustice that we each perpetuate and/or experience regularly in this society. And there are many many things that keep it that way. Certainly state violence and police brutality are important factors, but they are definitely not the only ones.

[-] 1 points by bmason68 (1) 2 years ago

Occupy Oakland's actions on Saturday violate the principles of the Occupy movement. The march was clearly provocative. The police, predictably, responded with violence. The attempt to provoke the violence was the main goal, and only "achievement", of the march. The pictures of occupiers burning the american flag have gone around the country, discrediting occupy's claim to be representing the majority of the population. A disaster.

[-] 1 points by pinapple (7) 2 years ago

you call this a peaceful protest? did you not see the bring of their flag, which could be consider treason, the vandalism, the marking of Anarchist? really, seriously, how can you justify this?

[-] 1 points by CalGeekGrl (1) from Sacramento, CA 2 years ago

Just curious about the vandalism - who started this and why? I am all in for supporting Occupy Oakland but not so fond of the vandalism part. So, I'd like to hear a truthful account from this side of things since the media are only posting what fits with the establishment view.

[-] 1 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

Consider that Occupy Oakland has evidence of agent provocateurs in their ranks. They outed a couple but this doesn't mean more haven't infiltrated. That isn't to say that there aren't legitimate Black Bloc people there as well but this is an ongoing struggle within their ranks. There are many videos of the attempts to vandalize with others in the movement trying to stop it. It is a very complicated issue.

[-] 0 points by PoIemarchus (56) 2 years ago

An official OWS press release asked occupiers to "Wear Black Fight Back" just above an image with an artificially added explosion under the word "cops". Presumably, having all protesters in black makes it harder to capture those creating violence who are often referred to as the black bloc.

http://occupywallst.org/article/solidarity-sunday/

Are you a protester? If so, are you all dressed in black and fighting back?

[-] 1 points by i8jomomma (80) 2 years ago

how about this............don't run...........bring a gun

[-] 1 points by zorbaka2 (61) 2 years ago

I saw a televised picture burning the American flag. I don't like that site and I think many Americans are turned off by it.

[-] 1 points by soxin8 (9) from Rocky Hill, CT 2 years ago

If you do not believe police and FBI are above the law, I need your help. My story can only be found with a search for "New police weapon against homeless" and also "Historic coverup of FBI and police crimes currently taking place". Try sending me an email for more details at soxin8@hotmail.com (the FBI has deleted emails from my account). I have a Masters degree but have been homeless for 4 years because of FBI job interference and media coverup of that and many other crimes including assault. Bill Anderson

[-] 1 points by Binh (83) 2 years ago

Video and text of what really happened in Oakland (please spread!): http://www.thenorthstar.info/?p=176

[-] 1 points by Mark01 (82) 2 years ago

the city should give occupy a building. here. we are feeding and giving health care to the people without using any tax dollars. they should give us the noble prize.

[-] 1 points by Ratso (16) 2 years ago

Mines bigger then yours !!...LOL

[-] 1 points by Revolutionary (267) 2 years ago

The whole humanity is proud of these brave protesters.Their perseverance shall make the world change for ever just as democracy was born with blood so shall the Humanity be born with their perseverance.I salute them.

[-] 1 points by Bighead1883 (285) 2 years ago

Corporate Police run by the Running Man Corporation of America.How prophetic was that movie?

[-] 1 points by andybarone1984 (5) 2 years ago

shields are great. you need to wear helmets too.

[-] 1 points by DonHawkins (37) 2 years ago

http://knowledge321.wordpress.com/ don't read this report to a retraining center

[-] 1 points by Whatever11 (1) 2 years ago

What propaganda so much for open honest reporting. This article would make any member of the old USSR Glavlit proud. The only objective reporting I have seen is from Tim Pool's TimCast you could learn a few lessons from him,

This movement cannot condone nor can it ignore groups of people showing up with shield looking for a confrontation nor can they condone people breaking into city hall stealing a flag and then burning it.

An old wise teacher of mine used to make me write for detention...

“ Democracy is the art of self discipline so one need not be disciplined by others”

Without some type of control or self discipline of your members, OWS Oakland is nothing more than a mob and should be treated as such.

If this is what your democracy looks like, then you can go someplace else because you do not speak for the 99% of Americans.

[-] 1 points by Gina164 (2) 2 years ago

FOUR thoughts:

ONE and TWO (non-violent communication ONLY and UPFRONT negotiations of 'occupying'...

I would like to see someone like Marshall Rosenberg, 'father of' NVC - non-violent communication, become the voice of The Occupy Movement. THEN, in my opinion... MANY people would listen... I support "Occupy," but there needs to be agreed upon ways to communicate the needs of the 99%....and to negotiate occupations peacefully BEFORE they are set into motion... to have the police/mayors/etc agree to non-violence...I know, this is easy to type... but, my intuition tells me that things are so badly tilted against 'us' -the 99%, that it's either complete communication with negotiations UPFRONT or the occupiers will continue to see this scenario repeated.

THREE: I suggest also that ALL government officials who side with the Occupy movement be the first people to be negotiated with... to set examples to those who are afraid to go against the 1%, and to establish a record of non-violent 'occupying' at OUR rights, as citizens.

FOUR: BARTERING in exchange for occupying: This could entail 'trade work' on buildings for having 'free rent'... abandoned buildings only.

Peace ~ Gina Kohman

[-] 1 points by neizuc (52) 2 years ago

I'm sorry but when exactly did the Oakland PD fire bullets?

[-] 1 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

This is the atrocity of our time in America. Who would have thought after all we've been through Americans exercising the Freedom of Speech would be met by a military-like squad of fully armed troops.

KEEP THE CAMERAS ROLLING!!! Justice is nigh!!

Unite and Win! Unite and Win! 2010 Never EVER Again!!

[-] 1 points by Mark01 (82) 2 years ago

i know it looks crazy but i dought that anybody can ignore whats its come down to. whatever Gov officials are dont think their stupid. at least they must be havin meetings finally realizing something needs to be done to fix this mess. so keep up the fight. there are victories even if we dont see them.

[-] 1 points by GerrybombS (1) from Green Valley, AZ 2 years ago

I got an idea...If Newt Gingritch comes to New York, hold up a sign that says, "I'm an unwashed hippie," then have a sign next to it that says, "I'm not! I'm a small business owner-'F' you"! I think that Newt would love that just a thought gerald slaby Tucson

[-] 1 points by Bighead1883 (285) 2 years ago

Excuse me GerrybombS.A hippy is a happy individual person perpetually youthful.The unwashed bit is a bit harsh.

[-] 1 points by TheIllusionCalledMoney (56) 2 years ago

Don't worry, Mitt is gonna save the day! His campaign slogan says it all. "Believe in America"! This is super duper, way different than Obama's slogan last go around, "Change you can believe in"!

God bless our sleeping country who still buy into this whole political charade thing!

[-] 1 points by huevosrancheros (21) 2 years ago

This is a very awkward sentence: "We have seen this violent truth before: in Pinochet’s Chile, 1990’s Russia, Suharto’s Indonesia." How blind can your anti-communism make you? No wonder you take no credit for what you write. Anything goes as long as it sounds righteous. This kind of "revolution for the hell of it" rhetoric does the movement a disservice. Revolution is not a game. Check yourselves.

[-] 2 points by Bighead1883 (285) 2 years ago

Exactly,very wise and profound.The game is surely afoot.

[-] 1 points by bill1102inf2 (357) 2 years ago

Why is it that no one in Oakland CA can come up with a way to defeat these Tyranical Opressors? They form up in a straight line with face shields, vests, batons, and a few different weapons. Bean bag guns, CS launchers, flash bang grenades. Come on people, read The Art Of War , DO SOMETHING!

[-] 2 points by Stephinitely (2) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Yeah, sure. Can we build a formidable army first?

[-] 1 points by i8jomomma (80) 2 years ago

these people don't know anything about defending themselves..........they like it when the pigs walk all over them cause they know the american people are afraid of them and the government........

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[-] 0 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

Do you have video proving this? Occupy Oakland has a different take on this whole mess:

http://occupyoaklandmoveinday.org/content/occupy-oakland-responds-oakland-police-repression-demands-accounting-brutal-tactics-and-end

"Occupy Oakland's building occupation, an act of civil disobedience, was disrupted by a brutal police response yesterday. Protesters were met with baton strikes, shot with rubber bullets, and exposed to tear gas along the route. Police immediately issued denials that tear gas was used; however, as many victims can attest, it was used freely and without regard to safety of the diverse crowd, which included families and children.

Later, in a subsequent attempt to Occupy an abandoned building in downtown Oakland, Oakland police arrested hundreds of demonstrators. Many were reported injured as police used batons to herd protesters into a kettle in front of the YMCA.

The OPD and City have issued several false claims that need to be rebutted. OPD claim that there was no tear gas used, a fabrication easily refuted by video shot by protesters. Police also claim that several officers were injured by protesters—again, there is absolutely no evidence of this claim, which is made at every demonstration and subsequently proven to be baseless. Protesters kettled in front of the YMCA, fled into the building, aided, at first by employees there. They did so to escape police, herding protesters against the walls of the building with baton-strikes. As always, police justify their actions by claiming that protesters attacked them or are a danger to others. But there are no reported injuries to police from protesters; a wedding party felt so unthreatened by Occupy Oakland, that it continued to have a reception in an art gallery in the plaza throughout the night.

City Administrator Deanna Santana and Police Chief Howard Jordan have made their intentions clear in the press statement released on Friday night. They intend to manipulate the law to intimidate protesters, implying that acts of civil disobedience and freedom of assembly are criminal, and targeting assumed leaders regularly with unannounced warrants for invented charges.

These actions from the OPD come at a time when the city of Oakland is laying off hundreds of workers, and following millions of wasted dollars in similar brutal police actions. "

[-] 1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

I was watching on livestream and saw police officers refuse to let a woman, who identified herself as press, leave the area after the ketteling.

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[-] 0 points by eyeofthetiger (304) 2 years ago

What's with this Nazi Gestapo word Regime Change cause that's what it sounds like Use the words Revolution

[-] 0 points by Makaki (0) 2 years ago

Hello American heroes! Capitalists control the whole world and forcing working people to work for them for a few dollars. Most of value that workers produce ends up in capitalist’s pockets. That one, who produce the value, living in poverty. This system is similar that one, when farmers take the honey bees. But human is not a bee. If workers resist, capitalists would go to another country, where workers work for a less money. The circle is closed without a solution for working people. As a consenquence is a reducing of worker’s rights and reductions who result’s in human‘s powerty. Just because that, world have to be changed. The changes in only one country will not have any results. Only the changes of the whole world can succeed. The most important is to solve the fudamental problem of whole civilisation. Exploitation of working people is a fudamental problem, from which stem most of the problems throughout all the human history. Just because that all of the progressive groups of people around the world must be organized and act together to change the world. Capitalism must be changed with new system in which human will be a subject, not an object of the system. Thehuman should not be a instrument for making a money. human must be a goal of the system. Goal of the capitalism is only make a money (profit) at the expense of the others. That profit is usually unused money, which is lying in the bank accounts as a dead money. Money, which are alienated from the workers, who created it. When this problem will be solved, many other problems would be solved too. People will become free and everybody would have better life. Without the change of the whole world, problems will not be solved. Capitalism is obsolete system of interpersonal relations, which must be changed with world command economy, which will bring order and prosperity for all the people. Now, politicians of all parties serve the capitalists and they are all the same. They work aganist interest of ordinary people. Let’s change the world! We support you! Fans from Europe union.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Taking over a vacant building to build a better world does not even rate on the scale, compared to having our bribe-fed politicians help rig the system in favor of the big bankers which, ended up screwing millions of people world-wide out of trillions of dollars........and causing untold human misery.

[-] 0 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Jean Quan once "identified" with the now kaput Maoist "Communist Workers Party." How the mighty have fallen.

[-] 1 points by Tacoma (6) 2 years ago

This is blatant redbaiting and totally unacceptable. Please read the rules:

"Red baiting will be moderated, as this is not 1952 and we are able to debate ideas without insulting anyone even slightly to the left as though they were Stalin reborn. Similarly, people on the right are not necessarily nazis."

We need to talk about politics, not slander. This only divides and weakens the movement.

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 2 years ago

"This is blatant redbaiting and totally unacceptable. Please read the rules:"

Okay maybe this is not well understood. Quan is the one ordering the cops to suppress Occupy. It is a known fact and not in dispute that she has a past in the revolutionary left as stated. I find it sad and ironic. I wonder how she feels about herself now?

[-] 0 points by marga (82) 2 years ago

The American dream is not dead. We just needed to wake up. If we are such evil people then who is our partner in crime? Who robbed us blind while we were dreaming of a better world? I'm 68 y/o. old and I still cannot find one single reason that is worth dying for, but I have plenty reasons that's worth living for. Our government has lost its sanity to think the American people will cow down and obey. Somebody had their hands in our cookie jar and everybody is now a terrorist till we find the cookie monster. Stop creating soldiers. They are paid murderers and don't deserve to be honored. Stop supporting the military which would feed the world over. Our jobs, our addiction to consumerism is keeping the biggest crime this world has ever known alive and the blood is on our hands. Quit your job and start working for the American people. America is not broke. We just need people willing to learn something new and take on some responsibility. There are to many dead beats and useless government fundet programs we can cut and take that money to create new jobs. We just need to come together and come to some mutual agreements. I'm done having to argue with governt officials who don't seem to know their job discriptions and radical Christians who think somebody owes them a living. We cant fix stupid, so we're gonna move forward.

[-] 0 points by marga (82) 2 years ago

This world is mind made, not man made. Everything the mind can conceive, man can achieve. We are all children of the universe and there we have more Gods then you can shake a stick at. Believe whatever you like, a belief is just a placeholder. The truth is just a popularity contest to the fools who don't want to hear something that is against their belief. Do not be distracter by people who have been bought off. They don't even got sense enough to know that our jobs and addiction to consumerism supports the biggest crime ring that ever existed on this planet. They don't want to know the truth, they just want their cushioned life style. Go back to sleep America while we rob you blind and make your kids our little bitches and dress up doll's and pretty boys or turn them into super soldiers who won't think twice to kill their own because they didn't obey a order. Our society is sick and needs all the help it can get. They simply cannot or refuse to see behind the religious veil.

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[-] 0 points by jamroll (6) 2 years ago

um...you tried to steal a building and yer proud of that? i do not understand... and...this is not the way of the occupy movement. theft cannot be tolerated! keep the fuckin peace.

[-] 1 points by TheIllusionCalledMoney (56) 2 years ago

Yes, I fully agree. The bankers tried (I mean did) steal trillions of dollars of our money and they're proud of that. I agree again, theft cannot be tolerated! So let's go after those banker, I mean Occupiers!!!

[-] 0 points by jamroll (6) 2 years ago

um - you tried to steal a building!

[-] 1 points by TheIllusionCalledMoney (56) 2 years ago

Yes, the bankers did steal trillions of our dollars!

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[-] 0 points by HarryPairatestes2 (380) from Barrow, AK 2 years ago

the above article states that bullets were fired. Is that true?

[-] 2 points by BigTim1977 (29) 2 years ago

Rubber bullets

[-] -2 points by America921 (161) 2 years ago

Rubber Bullets yes. That's what the yellow smoke is. Rubber Bullets are non-lethal takedown meant control a mob.

[-] 3 points by BGB (49) 2 years ago

Rarely lethal but not non-lethal. Also can cause serious harm. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bjs.1800620613/abstract

[-] 1 points by BigTim1977 (29) 2 years ago

In this case it was meant to intimidate and oppress what had been a peaceful protest

[-] 0 points by HarryPairatestes2 (380) from Barrow, AK 2 years ago

Interesting that the article doesn't state rubber bullets. Gives the impression the police were using live ammunition.

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[-] 0 points by America921 (161) 2 years ago

Lols.

[-] 0 points by i8jomomma (80) 2 years ago

fuck the police

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[-] -1 points by pedro01 (1) 2 years ago

I've notified all 911 dispatchers in your area not to come to your aid if requested by you.

[-] 1 points by i8jomomma (80) 2 years ago

thank you

[-] 0 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

Hey, don't be so mean to the guy. There's nothing wrong with wanting some late-night fun with the ladies in blue :)

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[-] -1 points by russman (8) 2 years ago

To all the OWS protesters

Only violence will win the day for you. Look at what had happened to Libya and what is happening in Syria. When protesters there fought violent against armed forces and were killed in the fights, they won the sympathies and military support of Western powers, especially the US. It would be very hypocritical of the US if it does not support violent protests in its own homeground. So, you have nothing to lose by beng violent. On the other hand, if you allow yourself to be arrested,tear-gassed and tasered, you are being seen as accepting that you are the law-breakers and criminals.

The only solution is violence.

[-] -1 points by BlackSun (275) from Agua León, BC 2 years ago

Bullets? Are you saying they were shooting and killing people?

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[-] 2 points by BigTim1977 (29) 2 years ago

I find it almost amusing how far right Americans are. You really think that a slightly right centrist is a lefty. Joe McCarthy would be proud to see this. Shame on you

[-] -1 points by pedro01 (1) 2 years ago

i find it almost amusing how far left Americans are. You really think that a slightly left centrist is a righter winger. Karl Marx would be proud to see this. Shame on you.

[-] 1 points by BigTim1977 (29) 2 years ago

You're not paying any attention if you believe that Americans are anywhere left of center. Total lack of vision. Great attempt to use my words, but you missed the point. Quan is not a right winger and I didn't claim that, but I wouldn't expect you to actually read what I'd written. Just to act like a very scared human being

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[-] -1 points by MARINE46 (-2) from Twentynine Palms, CA 2 years ago

it's all well and good to demand a more just nation but how do you propose to do that?

did it occur to you that maybe without the correct permissions and forms filled out that organizing in the heart of downtown oakland can, by law, be considered gang activity and you can be forced to be dispersed?

were there any warning signs that this might happen? were there notices given that you would be forced to cease and desist if you went through with it?

how is it that you can call for more justice when the article is so entirely BIASED.

[-] 3 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

Of course the article is biased...you're on the official OWS website. I expect a similar level of bias on FOX Newsor any of a million other websites.

And why is protesting being labelled as "gang activity?" That seems more than a little unconstitutional if that truly is the case.

[-] 2 points by BigTim1977 (29) 2 years ago

I was completely unaware that I need permission to express my civil rights. FYI, there was no dispersal warning until the protestors were kettled (an illegal police tactic)

[-] -2 points by jamroll (6) 2 years ago

MOST of you are complete tools!!

They were trying to steal a building - how will that stop the oppression?? Cops were justified there. Sorry.

[-] 1 points by TheIllusionCalledMoney (56) 2 years ago

Yes, I fully agree. The banks were trying to steal our money - how will that stop the oppression?? Cops were justified in not arresting a single banker for stealing trillions of our tax payer dollars. Sorry.

[-] -2 points by MonetPinckney (1) 2 years ago

The police offers were just doing what they were told. The people handle that situation the wrong way completely. The offers were shooting some types of explosives and was to scare the people. It seems to me the people were getting too close and they felt threatened. So they tried to scare the people remember it was only a few of the officers and like a bunch of the people.

[-] 3 points by BigTim1977 (29) 2 years ago

So if I'm heavily armed and you scare me it's ok for me to put your life in danger. Panic is not a good reason to endanger other's lives, especially from trained professionals

[-] -2 points by pinker3 (56) 2 years ago

What kind of parent would bring their kids to an event like this?

[-] 4 points by BigTim1977 (29) 2 years ago

The kind that cares enough about their children to show them how to defend their rights

[-] 1 points by pinker3 (56) 2 years ago

You'd bring your kid to a demonstration where you know blac block will be? nice.

[-] 0 points by BigTim1977 (29) 2 years ago

Black Bloc is a what, not a who. It's a tactic. I would bring my children to any educational experience, sheltering them from police oppression just opens them up to it as adults

[-] 0 points by pinker3 (56) 2 years ago

A tactic of violence. Oakland OWS has been overtaken by the bored brats. They are a who not a what - they are made up of individuals.

[-] -2 points by BlackSun (275) from Agua León, BC 2 years ago

You are simply stupid.

[-] 1 points by i8jomomma (80) 2 years ago

i would bring my kid and i would tell him to throw rocks at the pigs if they tried to pepper spray him..........i would tell him not to take any shit from the pigs or any body else representing this fucked up corrupt government

[-] 1 points by pinker3 (56) 2 years ago

Well I hope you ain't anybody's momma.

[-] 1 points by i8jomomma (80) 2 years ago

i am a father of one son and i would tell him to protest and if the pigs or any other government official tried to suppress him in any way then he is to throw rocks at them and if he can he is to take whatever they are using on him away from them and use it on them..........fuck the police and the corrupt government they work for

[-] -2 points by OaklandWesB (-3) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Did the Mayor or the police vandalize our YMCA, wreck shop on the peoples City Hall spraypaint grafitti all over downtown, did they smash windows, break into private propery... No. And whats worse is that I dont believe the good people Oakland did niehter. This is the work of suburbanite childern who come to Oakland with no other purpose but to wreck havoc, because the they know that bs won't fly in Walnut Creek or where ever the reside. I support the 99% movement to the fullest, but these assholes who call themselves Occupy Oakland need to get the hell out of our city. The people who really occupy Oakland dont want them, and will turn on them.

[-] 3 points by BigTim1977 (29) 2 years ago

The YMCA wasn't vandalized, the doors were opened by the employees to allow the protesters (who had been illegally kettled out front) to escape a police blockade. Try telling the truth before you start crucifying these fine people. If the people of Oakland turn on the Occupiers, you deserve the police state that Mayor Quan is implementing

[-] 2 points by i8jomomma (80) 2 years ago

i would help them hide from the pigs too ...........good for him for doing the right thing

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[-] -1 points by BlackSun (275) from Agua León, BC 2 years ago

Are you saying that they didn't break into city hall and trash parts of it?

[-] 2 points by BigTim1977 (29) 2 years ago

Most reports I've heard are that the door was open. Should they have gone in? No. Should they have vandalised it? No. I replied to a specific part of that comment regarding the YMCA. I watched those events unfold live and what I saw was an angry reaction to police oppression. When the police push people (as OPD has done for at least as long as I've been alive) some, lacking a cooler head, will act out. It's not right to violate the social contract by destroying public or private property. It is to be expected from those who feel they've run out of other answers. Those people should be identified and prosecuted for their actions.

[-] 3 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

BGB shared this link which reference accounts of both the YMCA and City Hall incidents:

http://www.politicalfailblog.com/2012/01/occupy-oaklands-j28-move-in-day.html

[-] 1 points by BigTim1977 (29) 2 years ago

Thank you.

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