Snowden was recently asked about Occupy Wall Street. Here's what he said
Posted 8 years ago on Oct. 28, 2014, 10:07 a.m. EST by OccupyWallSt
Tags: Theory, Snowden
An excerpt from: http://www.thenation.com/article/186129/snowden-exile-exclusive-interview
The Nation: When was the last time civil disobedience brought about change?
Edward Snowden: Occupy Wall Street.
The Nation: One of us might disagree with you. Arguably, Occupy was a very important initiative, but it was soon vaporized.
Edward Snowden: I believe strongly that Occupy Wall Street had such limits because the local authorities were able to enforce, basically in our imaginations, an image of what proper civil disobedience is--one that is simply ineffective. All those people who went out missed work, didn't get paid. Those were individuals who were already feeling the effects of inequality, so they didn't have a lot to lose. And then the individuals who were louder, more disruptive and, in many ways, more effective at drawing attention to their concerns were immediately castigated by authorities. They were cordoned off, pepper-sprayed, thrown in jail.
<p>"authorities were able to enforce, in our imaginations, an image of what proper civil disobedience is--one that is ineffective" says Snowden</p>— Occupy Wall Street (@OccupyWallSt) October 27, 2014</blockquote>
The Nation: But you think Occupy nonetheless had an impact?
Snowden: It had an impact on consciousness. It was not effective in realizing change. But too often we forget that social and political movements don't happen overnight. They don't bring change immediately--you have to build a critical mass of understanding of the issues. But getting inequality out there into the consciousness was important. All these political pundits now talking about the 2014 and 2016 elections are talking about inequality.
Maybe jart could ask Snowden a few things by super-duper, hyper-secure, multi-pinged, VPN, dark-web means & see if he is a 'benevolent dictator' but in the mean time - I'm of the opinion that she's ashamed of us and this forum & wants it dead and that the '404 Sign Up Page', actually tends to this conclusion.
Y'all can read her views on 'demo-crass-y' / demoCRAZY / deMOCKERYcy & in her opinion, it seems that (based on a sample of one, ie Linus Torvalds) ... we'd all be better off under benign tyrants ! Is the 'Sign Up' page going to be opened to new or even old posters ?!! That is really all I need to fkn know !!!
Apparently jart's "views do not represent Google" but for sure Google Corp. aren't objecting too hard, lol and re. ''Beware the mob, for their wishes are not their own, as they are merely zombies summoned by the media to attack that which is strong.'' - I know what and where admiration of 'the strong' - is & leads to & tho' I'm concerned about 'our leader', I'm more concerned about this forum - which is still one of the most active faces of OWS on the web & which is still very relevant but I would say that wouldn't I, lolol !!
Any revolution or fundamental change does not come overnight by flicking a switch but my a process and true, participatory democracy & indeed Liberty ''cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people" (John Adams - Second President, 1797 - 1801). Re. the actual 'News Article' btw : http://www.thenation.com/article/186129/snowden-exile-exclusive-interview - I do wonder what Edward Snowden would make of our predicament & anyone with any sway over jart should have a word asap !
respice, adspice, prospice ...
One thing we need to do is we need to quit complaining when trolls come here, which they inevitably will, due to the nature of this site. I think that is why jart shut it down this last time.
We should welcome all people to the forum, trolls and all, people we agree with, people we disagree with. We can handle them, we've been handling them for 3 years. The sign up should be re-opened permanently with absolutely zero concern for what may happen. Let the chips fall where they may.
''We should welcome all people to the forum, trolls and all, people we agree with, people we disagree with. We can handle them, we've been handling them for 3 years. The sign up should be re-opened permanently with absolutely zero concern for what may happen. Let the chips fall where they may.'' Amen, Bravo, Ditto & Solidarity bw. Meanwhile ...
multum in parvo ...
"US child poverty remains at highest rate in 20 years." And, nearly 1 in 4 children are living in poverty today, 1 in 3 rely on food stamps and nearly 1 in 2 are near the poverty line.
What a total abject failure! This economic system and political system and society as a whole are a total failure! Wake up people! It doesn't have to be this way. There is plenty of money to go around.
There is plenty of money to go around. Unfortunately, the masses seem hell-bent on giving way too damn much to the rich.
Apple, Facebook, Verizon, Twitter, Hollywood, Netflix, DirecTV, Dish Network, Wal-Mart, the local doctor, GSK, Pfizer, Astra Zeneca, Oprah Winfrey, Ellen Degeneres, Beyonce, Lebron James, Tiger Woods, the Kardashians, Taylor Swift, U2, Citigroup, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect.
Virtually no one takes one god damn second to stop and think about wealth concentration before throwing their money down on the latest batch of over-priced crap. If they did, we would not be in this mess.
Well said. I'd like to see labeling on products that go as deep as to list what percent of the price goes to labor costs, what percent goes to profits, etc.
God is here on Earth! Make it happen. The information you seek is public and available in corporate reports to shareholders. All it takes is to have it pop up when people are thinking of buying something. Both Google and Amazon can display this information (probably with the help of Akamai) such as when a smartphone recognizes a product through its camera and searches for price and descriptive information.
If potential customers ask for the information, these search companies will likely supply it. Before every purchase, ask for the information and soon enough the corporations may get the message that it matters.
LOL! Maybe Apple can even add how many employee deaths occurred during production.
Not funny really, but sometimes, in humor we can see things more clearly especially very sad and tragic things....
Yes, indeed. A picture of steel nets around China's workers' dormitory buildings to prevent suicide jumps from killing the persons and others can be helpful purchasing guide. Google, jart's master, probably has those pictures available when searched for. Here is one of the workers' corporate safety net by a very caring corporation.
On its IPO, Google restricted its share offerings in a more egalitarian way than most others so it is more Communist.
Holy crap what a good idea!
Now all we need is an act of God to make it happen.
Wow! It is refreshing to read something written by somebody who is thinking.
( now I'm curious; I have to ask; are you under or over 30? )
you and Shadz are the biggest attackers of anyone wanting to change the current system the forum has become nothing but hate filled puke dumping on every liberal in the country
No one is a bigger attacker than the government you seem to love.
Here's a video made by OccPhoenix on the governmental forces at work. There's a slew more of them there, on the right, all the same shit.
Why do I have a feeling you are a retired cop?
Your current government and political system dumps hate filled puke on the American people every single day.
This site is the Top Link that appears on The Google Machine for all Occupy search terms I've tried.There is more than one explanation for that...unless the Algos direct to the most traffic.There is some variability with other subject searches,but I have never seen this site fail to appear as the Top Link.Occupy won't be a worry until the Right Wing Ding gives up on the Republican Wing of Uniparty and the TP,IMO.They are not quite there yet.Their #1 concern is Guns.Uniparty does not support their Gun Thing and will begin Stabbing them in the Back over it in Due Time.
''Uniparty'' is a great term and meme & baring a very worryingly small handful (Dennis Kucinich, Cynthia McKinney & possibly Liz Warren, Alan Grayson & Bernie 'Pro War' Sanders) they are all Corporate Co-opted ''Right Wing Dings'' it feels. Then of course there is ...
Like you say harry, this site is still right up there as a 'Face of Occupy' & we soldier on for The 99% but alas with li'l or no help from 'our leader & ''founder'' - not that we need much help but 'active hindrance' is really a proper pain in the arse !
per aspera ad astra et 'v. q. p.' ...
Solidarity Shadzy.You are the Best.Tanguam ex ungue Leonum.
''The US justice divide: why crime and punishment in Wall Street and Ferguson are so different'', by Matt Taibbi :
Thanx harry. Solidarity and I hope you sort out a web-site for your art & that article will hurt to read so ...
caveat et pax et lux ; nunc et semper ...
The Streets are the Best Place to Exhibit Art.The People deserve the best I can do.
Yes & re.'Situationist Art & Thought', fyi :
La beaute' est dans la rue et - ars longa, vita brevis ...
I can understand why she would be ashamed....
She's possibly "ashamed" because we do not reflect her current 'Right-Libertarian', quasi-Randian, disdainful of The 99% - views .. NOT because the forum isn't some DNC fellatio exercise as some people have always wanted it to be !!! Democracy does NOT actually equal 'Duopoly' !! Solidarity !
All you US peeps between centre-right and bat-shit-crazy right-wing (which includes The VAST Majority of you btw !), expect instant results in your culture of short attention-span ; instant gratification and can't see past 3/4 election cycles / your own lifetimes. If you have kids & grandkids u should think about that.
respice ; adspice ; prospice ...
That is most likely a reflection of watching both people build things that really help people, and also watching people say that they have the right to own that very thing. There are some good points in that piece.
It might not be so much an endorsement of uber right views as much as it a denouncement of uber left ones. I know quite a few people who rail against the machine on a daily basis, who simply cannot out of bed in the morning. Its an extreme case, but the loud wheels always get the grease, right?
You think jart's screed is "a denouncement of uber left" views ?!!! What ''uber-left'' left views are actually prevalent in The U$A ?!! Tho' I'll read it again later, I am really very hard pushed to see that in her essay [ https://justinetunney.com/founders.html ], which reads like a sub-Randian manifesto for elitists & the "founders" of enterprises - for profit or otherwise !
Sadly jart appears to be like so many people in USUK etc whose political perspective doesn't extend much beyond a generation or their own immediate reality. On a partial tangent for example, Universal 'not for profit' Healthcare is seen as ''uber left'' by many in The U$A, whereas in Canada & Europe, it's considered a cornerstone of a civilised society. Equally, most people in most places .. would actually consider 'For Profit Prisons' as immoral and beyond the pale - yet it is happening now all over the US.
''Public Prisons, Private Profits'', by Victoria Law : http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/27138-public-prisons-private-profits + also consider ..
''In Depth: How Big Business Buys State Courts'', by Mike Ludwig : http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/27154-in-depth-how-big-business-buys-state-courts &
''How to Buy a City: Chevron Spends $3 Million on Local California Election to Oust Refinery Critics'' (Video) with Amy Goodman : http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/27175-how-to-buy-a-city-chevron-spends-3-million-on-local-california-election-to-oust-refinery-critics
Finally, on this Edward Snowden referencing News-Post, perhaps also further consider the following :
''The Shadow Surveillance State Is Really a Secret Religion'', by Mike Karlin : http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/27133-the-shadow-surveillance-state-is-really-a-secret-religion
"'Citizenfour' Directly Confronts the Intelligence Apparatus' Subversion of Democracy'', by Geoff Gilbert : http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/27087-citizenfour-directly-confronts-the-intelligence-apparatus-subversion-of-democracy .
fiat lux ...
You have to remember that when you do a lot of activist stuff, you end up talking with a lot of communist types, and also many types that look at anyone who has managed to build really just about anything, and then say those people have no right to it.
There's issues on the right and the left, in extreme views of some people, who think that no one should help anyone, or the opposite, the absolute abolishment of private property. I know some of these people, they literally don't want you to own the house you live in. And Im like, um sorry bro, I have people to take care of, your not coming and going out of my house as you please lol.
Honestly, you know my views on things. I'm not a mind reader, just trying to make sense of a blog article like that. What brought on these thoughts, etc.
OWS ''had an impact on consciousness. It was not effective in realizing change. But too often we forget that social and political movements don't happen overnight. They don't bring change immediately--you have to build a critical mass of understanding of the issues. But getting inequality out there into the consciousness was important.'' says Edward Snowden & of course, I agree with that.
I'm kinda shocked that you ''end up talking with a lot of communist types'' because prejudicially, I didn't really think they had much presence or traction on The U$A !!! They may be old school, unreconstructed ''property is theft'' - Stalinist types or even agents provocateurs - but frankly, the necessary opposition to Corporatocracy makes for some strange bedmates, lol !! The policies of Neoliberal, 'small govt.' but huge security/military machine ; laissez-faire crapitalism are what hold sway in The U$A and that (imo) is as near to Fascism as it gets without goose-stepping soldiers and secret police on the streets !
The major problem with 'Socialism In America' - is that for 40+ years, as a matter of policy - it has been reserved for the 1% & their 0.01% Parasite Class Masters, while The 99% have increasingly suffered the strictures and oppression of Crapitalism, red in tooth and claw.
''America's Socialism For the Rich'', by Joseph Stieglitz : http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/jun/12/america-corporate-banking-welfare ;
''Nine Myths about Socialism in the US'', by Bill Quigley : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25187.htm &
https://occupywallst.org/forum/give-class-war-a-chance/ (incl. ''fabulous'' photo of the ''founder'')
Finally, please note that - “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism, because it is a merger of State and corporate power.” (Benito Mussolini)
The problem is that capitalism will always promote corporatism. There is no getting away from that because capitalism needs the exploitation that corporations are so good at extracting.
Theres a good chance that any system will end up really fucked up if the people dont do their part. Corporatism is just merging the state with the large corps. Whether the corps are lobbying for favorable regs in a marketplace of lobbying to be the sole provider via government in socialism or communism, we can easily end up in the same spot prob.
Socialism has gone to shit, communism has gone to shit, dictatorships, etc. Also, all of the mentioned have had stints where they are decently successful, even today.
I look at the social programs we have right now, compared to say the netherlands. And the areas that are heavily subsidized aren't happier, and in fact the socialist nations in Europe have really high rates of suicide for some reason.
Personally I feel the problem lies in the concentration of power. In a nation this huge, centralizing it has created a disastrous effect. Its been a downward spiral for the last 100+ years.
Socialism can be very effective when the people can see the fruits of their labors. If Tampa said lets put together a plan where everyone gets healthcare, and here is the doctors pay, and here is what we need for supplies and housing and machines on a yearly basis, so dividing it up among 3 million people we need X amount from everyone, on a monthly basis.
100 million working people donating $80 a month is one billion. Removing all the regualtions and the lawyers, one billion is a great number, very manageable.
But if people want me to put my name behind the bureaucrats in DC to run it, nationally, in a productive manner with the trial lawyers writing most of the legislation and the insurance companies figuring out how to get theirs, along with the equipment manufacturers, fuck that. Not for me. Total mess.
I think capitalism inherently does not work for all, or most people, and it is on it's way to imploding. I am open to new ideas for new economic systems. Economic systems are man made after all.
One thing I think is important is that capitalism requires competition and exploitation and scarcity, and that is why you get people crying, wah, wah, I made it! I own it! I control it! You didn't work hard enough! You're not as smart as me! Blah, blah. I'm personally really sick and tired of that kind of elitism. Try standing on your feet all day at McDonald's, try standing on your feet all day teaching 40 kids, etc., and tell me those people don't work hard!
You can be a genius and work your ass off and get nowhere in this country. All I want is for everyone to have enough to live a decent life. I'm not looking for everyone to be equal. But, no one should be getting wealthy off the backs of others who are living on poverty wages.
I agree on " But, no one should be getting wealthy off the backs of others who are living on poverty wages."
Most of the people who pay such low wages are the multinationals. Rarely do we see local shops paying people only $7/hr.
Which makes it all the more amazing that 100 million people go to Walmart, every week, patronizing the very people who screw them over.
Of course, our voting habits aren't much better, as we will see tomorrow. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss lol.
Good points. Not much to vote for today, sadly, perhaps that is why so many Americans stay home compared to other developed nations.
I would add, would it be more of a mess than it is now? Not sure, hard to tell.
But then again, I thought we were moving for universal in the 08 campaign, and got a big heaving helping of shit instead, so that kind of proved it all to me.
Occupy Wall Street represents the beginning of a revolution of thought in the United States. It has planted the seeds that will eventually spread that revolution to our economic and political systems. Have patience. Big change takes time.
The future of OWS will depends on its ability to keep the ego driven Greens from attempting to prop up their egos and vote count on the backs of OWS, addressing the root cause of inequality that root cause being political inaction on the part of the people is the only path to change.
You missed my second sentence. "It (OWS) has planted the seeds that will eventually spread that revolution to our economic and political systems. Don't bother me with your blah blah about our current political system.
then please don't bother me about our current wars or our current student debt or the current inequality, you clearly don't care about anything the current system does,,,,,or anything that could be done currently to effect change
Currently, we have politicians who are all in bed with corporations, hence the problems you describe. We need to change the current......
thought you weren't interested in current change, we could affect tremendous change within a week if we removed our heads from ours asses alass little chance of that....
By current I was referring to the general tide, the direction of things, the direction our current political system has us going in. More wars, lower wages, increased debt, increased poverty, increased inequality, etc.
more Greens helping more Republicans stay in office longer.....I know what you mean when will it ever end? If only OWS and the Greens could see there is a better way, a path to real change.
The Democratic Party is older than the Republican Party. Real change, it's not.
Stop endorsing war criminals then.
Dems nuked two cities.
Dems started Korea.
Dems lied to the country and started Vietnam.
And now after Iraq and Afghanistan, Dems have decided to keep bombing them and have tossed in Libya, Pakistan, Syria, Sudan, Mali and Yemen.
How could this all be? Because of people like you refusing to hold anyone accountable.
If you ask me, no one has a bigger ego than people like you, willing to look past the blood and the guts and rape and the destruction, just to win.
Stop electing Republicans do I even need to list the reasons why?
BTW the way, chances are they will control the Senate soon you must be very proud
I refuse to support the crimes of one group to avoid the crimes of another.
Thats a pathetic way to live your life, and makes you officially part of the problem. Because of you are willing to play that game, then why would tptb ever change anything?
They got you by the nuts, hook line and sinker.
Thank god you boomers are on your way out.
Nope - nuff said - should be obvious to all - I mean yes the democrats have their problems too - but they are nowhere near as virulent/poisonous at this very point in time.
No where near? They are both so fuckin bad I don't see how anyone could put their name behind either of em at this point. Totally screwing everyone, laughing about it all the way to the bank.
But each side convinces their minions to just follow along, things could get worse otherwise. Well, when you have two options both saying that, things get worse. Duh, right?
So here we go, another election where the people are literally begging to get fucked over.
We are where we are at this point in time - Blatantly evil reps in office and running for office and weak kneed dems in office and running for office.
Show me a different line-up to vote for and depending on who they are and what they believe - if they show as better prospects - then - no problem.
But as of this very point in time I will choose the weak kneed over the blatantly evil every time.
I told you all last election that the Dems hate the environment just as much, they just realize their voters want them to care. Fast forward a few years and Keystone is going and they open up the entire Atlantic to oil exploration, after decades of a ban.
I told you all last election that the Dems are just as blood lusting for war as the Reps, and here we are, bombing Syria and rebombing Iraq. But hey, the people are terrified of Muslims from mass media hype, so blame it on a new group. Make em more scary than the last one, make a few fake videos, etc. Cake walk.
I told you all last election that the Dems loved Wall St just as much, and its been two straight years of taking our money and giving to the banks. Allegedly Novemeber is the beginning of an actual recovery, we'll see how long that lasts.
I told you all last election that the Dems could care less about our food, and there ya go, had to make sure a few key people voted no on it (read the Occucards on duopoly for this one).
I told you all last election that they could care less about jobs. Two years later, no one is talking about bringing manufacturing back, and they are still working on more free trade deals.
I told you all last election the Dems loved the police state, and here we are, openly being spied upon and they are actually jailing the whistle blowers. No outrage over any of the police violence, etc.
Of course, Ive been saying all of this for a while, before occupy and shortly after being used like a fuckin fool for hope/change. If you get really involved and stay true to justice and liberty for all, its not hard to see.
After Dems and Reps shut down our movement, it should have been obvious. But to some, they still cling. You're still clinging to the Dems, there's some still clinging to the Republicans. Completely trapped in their own minds.
So it is our job to release the grip.
Another world is possible.
Self serving people are just that, self serving. Sociopaths are great at playing on people's emotions, getting them to believe in them.
Dems convince people they are there to help them, Reps convince them they are there to leave them alone. Neither one is true to that, because if they were the system wouldnt exist as it does.
So you go ahead and fall in love with some loser politicians, whom you have never met, and somehow feel they are just some weak kneed poor guy, just tryin to do his best. Gosh darn it, lets help the poor fella out!
Ah shucks DKA, I luvvvv yooooou :)
BTW - the threat of reps controlling the senate? We will see soon enough - but it seems to me to be an empty fear-mongering get out the vote or else threat. Anyway I hope that it is all just a bad dream - because things are bad enough in this country without them having anymore power to flush us "all" the rest of the way down the toilet.
Our Aristocratic Representatives Support torture, deny evolution, call down God onto their opponents, deny temperature and energy increase in the atmosphere, empower banks to pay 1% interest and collect 30% interest, deny equal protection of the laws to their citizens, deny equal economic and educational opportunity to their citizens, have special health care laws for the aristocrats of Congress, have the aristocratic Government officials immune to indictment for murder, torture, and trillion dollar fraudulent financial transactions (several times in one generation), send jobs overseas, tax the poor and subsidize the rich, let Corporations write the laws that govern them, subsidize the energy corporations and food producing corporations, sell their votes and office to anyone and everyone who can give them a few hundred thousand dollars. And still, our Aristocrats of Government get a good rating of 12%. "What fools these mortals be." Remove the Aristocratic Republic and replace it with An Actual Democracy with one Constitutional Amendment where the people vote on the laws as they now vote for entertainers and debate where they debate the laws where now they debate which laws and which aristocratic Representative is the worst. See http://assocactualdemocracy.com and http://actualdemocracy.blogspot.com.
yes. I mean Hell YES !!!
Snowden had already made up his mind he was going to do what he ended up doing by the time 9/17/11 rolled around.#OWS and the treatment it received probably helped him make up his mid to act if he remained uncertain,or steeled his resolve if already committed by that time.The first thought I had upon the Breaking News of a New and Devastating Whistleblower was-He is one of us-the 99%.He is one of Ours.Hope he can come home soon.
The day Snowden can come home will get "closer" only after we end the corp(se)oRATocracy.
"All these political pundits now talking about the 2014 and 2016 elections are talking about inequality."
Sure, they are. Unfortunately, most of them, and ALL of the political candidates themselves, are talking about 'inequality' in manners specifically designed to keep the people STUPID.
This is what they still refuse to admit:
THE RICH ARE TOO RICH. PERIOD.
readers may be interested in Glenn Greenwald's new website: "The Intercept" found at www.firstlook.org/theintercept/
Its going to be a while before something as cool as occupy comes along again.
'Net Neutrality Stands in the Way of Larger Corporate Profits' -
We should wonder what would Edward Snowden make of that!
We Must NEVER Allow 'Tiered Access' To The Internet! Occupy Universal Internet Solidarity!
What I don't get is why the corporations should be paid more for slowing down the internet access?
Don't they have to LOOK at every single packet of information flying around and determine if its account is up to date with money to forward it accordingly?
It is like being paid to obstruct traffic!
'It is like being paid to obstruct traffic!' Exactly! Because that way, you the individual and small, medium and large companies, will feel as though you have to use the toll roads! THEIR toll roads! All this is now being enabled by such treason as this http://www.nationofchange.org/2014/12/10/supreme-court-cozies-big-business/
Be under no illusions whatsoever - the 1% fear the implications of the internet and will be trying their damnest to cage and control it.
Never Give Up The Struggle for 99% Justice, Freedom and Progress! Occupy The Agenda! Solidarity.
If people are going to be obstructing traffic anyway, they can emulate the trolls and set up their own toll booths. We can see if the 1% can collect more tolls than the 99%'s toll booths. If the racial divide is the issue, the social justice tolls can be inversely proportional to the skin color of the drivers.
As we must eliminate - 'Tiered Access' Health Care.
Yes, 'eliminate - 'Tiered Access' Health Care'! This is being enabled by Healthcare and Insurance Corporations through the courts and via a 'captured' and I would argue - treasonous, SCOTUS - http://www.nationofchange.org/2014/12/10/supreme-court-cozies-big-business/
Never Give Up Exposing ans Opposing The 1%! Occupy The Truth! Solidarity.
Oh, you mean like the Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital's handling of the Ebola case of Patrick Eric Duncan. Make room for paying customers. That did not work out well.
NO ! As in one size fits all = FULL COVERAGE TO EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL.
Sorry, Biology messed up my English reading - elimination is a bodily process. Full coverage to every single individual would certainly simplify healthcare greatly. Much of the paperwork in clinics and hospitals deals with the insurance coding, apportionment, etc., related to money, not diseases, nor people. Other developed countries have far lower costs and better averaged outcomes.
This just occurs to me - the U.S. pays clinics and hospitals to obstruct traffic!
Exactly why the ACA needs to be grown/expanded/strengthened and private ins operations be absorbed and restructured.
Medicare for all can be a very simple replacement for the ACA. Mechanism is already inplace. Overhead is already extremely low and may go even lower because "for all" can eliminate the checking of age eligibility for Medicare.
Expanded access to Medicare/Medicaid is the heart ( currently ) of the success ( ability to get health coverage at all ) of the ACA - and is if used properly will drive down the cost of private insurers coverage if they want to retain customers. The more private insurers raise their prices and lower what they will cover - then - the more attractive Medicare/Medicaid become and the more individual income Medicare/Medicaid will receive from individuals signing up to participate at the lower rates and expanded coverage - to help further growth and expansion of Medicare/Medicaid.
Does that mean one should drive up the costs of medical care of the private insurers to hasten the day for Medicare/Medicaid coverage for all? Ebola outbreak in the U.S. seems capable of doing just that if it occurs.
Private ensurers really need no goading to drive up their prices or drop the quality of coverage - they have been doing that on an increasing pace - fastly increasing pace for over the last ten years. And they have even gotten stupider since the creation of the ACA.
Not more stupid, more empowered. They wrote the freakin thing for cryin out loud!
Obamacare premiums falling in 48 major cities
by Joan McCarterFollow
Silver plans falling by .02%? Really? Thats hysterical. I also like how the lower level plans are actually increasing according to the article.
Insurance companies are loving this. I guess all that lobbying paid off.
[ EDIT ] cherry picking R U ? Yes there are places where private insurers are raising prices ( sky rocketing their prices ) - and there are places that are seeing dramatic drops in prices as noted below in a section of the article you must have accidentally overlooked.
" Keep in mind that the 0.2 percent drop is the average across all the measured cities. There are places where prices are skyrocketing (like Anchorage, AK, where they're rising by 28 percent; or Minneapolis, MN, where they're rising by 18 percent) and places where prices are plummeting (in Jackson, MS, prices are falling by 24 percent; and in Denver, CO, they're falling by 15.6 percent). "
" There's one thing this analysis points out yet again— people with existing Obamacare policies shouldn't just auto-enroll back into the same plan. First, they might very well be able to find a comparable plan at a lower price, and second, their subsidy level could very well be changing, since it's based on the lowest-priced silver plan available on their exchange. If those plans have cheaper premiums this year, subsidy amounts could be lowering for everyone. The only way to determine that for the consumer is to shop again and see what's available, and what their subsidy will be. "
" So, seven million newly insured (not counting all those added to Medicaid, and the young people newly covered by their parents' plans) in plans that will remain affordable, and it's all costing the government less than predicted and the rise in healthcare costs is being slowed down dramatically. Of course Republicans want to repeal all that! "
EDIT -> BTW - it was exactly because of corp(se)oRATion private insurers sky-rocketing their prices year after year after year - that the ACA was 1st brought up and then was pushed into being against private insurers protests and lobbying. And do you think the private insurers are gonna stop their activities without a fight? HELL NO ! And that is why in places it is gonna get worse before it gets better.
Which means if its pretty much a net 0 difference, then in other cities prices are increasing dramatically to get those 24 and 15.6% decreases back to a zero.
Insurers put on a show to act as if this was bad for their biz simply because if they came out and publicly stated "Holy shit, the gov is going to mandate everyone buys our products?!! Hell Ya!" well.... you probably wouldn't have been slobbering all over like you were.
These business behemoths know how you are going to react and how to play you before you do.
George S. McGovern -- The Simple Health-Care Solution: Medicare for Everyone
private ballot box elections are a shame
OWS doesn't have political clout.
|the individuals who were louder, more disruptive and, in many ways, more effective at drawing attention to their concerns were immediately castigated by authorities. They were cordoned off, pepper-sprayed, thrown in jail.|
“Many observers saw Occupy's 2011 rise in New York as a product in part of the NYPD's overreaction to protest. “ Those authorities violated the First Amendment but were not voted out of office or replaced. To accomplish that would require a political party which OWS is not.
OWS is a setup by the 1% to keep would be revolutionaries "occupied" with trivia like blogging so as to keep them from engaging in real revolutionary activity.
"The word is mightier than the sword." - one copy of the Teachings of Ahiqar, dating to about 500BC.
"A man's greatest work is to break his enemies, to drive them before him, to take from them all the things that have been theirs, to hear the weeping of those who cherished them." Genghis Khan
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1:1.
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs ffom thistles?" - Matthew 7:15-16.
What is the fruit of Genghis Khan? Mountains of stacked bleached human skulls and bones before city gates and the "weeping of those who cherished them." Where are the smiles on the children's faces?
The Mongol army led by Genghis Khan subjugated more lands and people in twenty-five years than the Romans did in four hundred. In nearly every country the Mongols conquered, they brought an unprecedented rise in cultural communication, expanded trade, and a blossoming of civilization. Vastly more progressive than his European or Asian counterparts, Genghis Khan abolished torture, granted universal religious freedom, and smashed feudal systems of aristocratic privilege.............Weatherford presents, if not the greatest ruler the world has ever seen, then certainly the ruler who had the most lasting legacy in creating the modern world. Genghis Khan conquered “more than twice as much as any other man in history” – between 11 to 12 million contiguous square miles, some 30 countries (on today’s modern map) with included over three billion people. His own Mongol tribe numbered a mere million, “smaller than the workforce of some modern corporations,” and his elite army of 100,000 warriors was “a group that could comfortably fit into the larger sports stadiums of the modern era.”...........................
Indeed, today’s leaders would do well studying the life and practices eight centuries past of the great Khan: he also abolished torture, built a governing system based on merit, loyalty, and achievement rather than social privilege by birth, and attempted to institute a single international law.
Recent decades of globalization can claim far more than Genghis Khan. After the great opening up, Europe got the Black Death. Now after the U.S. innovation of air-travel having spread worldwide, we can look forward to Ebola coming here. Do you enjoy the great conquest of Capitalism, such as the disappearance of jobs for the U.S.?
Not sure I understand your response. I was just pointing out that maybe genghis was not the monster our 6th grade history made him out to be.
There are advantages gained from the most heinous crimes, too, if you adopt a "proper" perspective. Unification through conquest makes certain things easier afterwards but it incurs cost of getting there.
Would OWS have been more "effective" if it were more unified in its demands? I doubt it. There has been a definite change in the political discourse since OWS started. Were OWS to have demanded a short list be carried out, there would not have been any chance of a paradigm shift.
Snowden did have a point. We need to be "impure" to cleanse the rigged system. Soap has an organic greasy part that mixes well with dirt. To clean dirt, we must have grease combined with lye or potash.
Doesn't seem to matter if it is inflation or genghis - our discussions don't make much sense. Not to me anyway
Snowden's point was that OWS did not effect a revolution because the ground force was not relevant to the eelites. I agree with that because profits matter to the eelites. Ten thousand people protesting outside of the eelites' business profit collection basin still affects profits little. It is when the paying or potential customers start acting out that the eelites take notice and respond.
We cannot be overly saintly about including people from the current rigged system into our movement. Wall Street eelites may perch on a mighty tree but tiny beetle grubs inside of it can still bring the whole tree down over time. We cannot be too pure and saintly about working with the so-called grubs.
have you seen the movie "cool hand luke" - "what we have here is failure to communicate!"
No. I do not understand.
so now we are even
Many people in Asia think the great Ghan was a hero, in the he brought law and civilzation to an unruly land.
But what I'm really trying to say, "words not backed by a sword, are often not considered serious words. . . and if the sword is actually used, its the fault of guy who did not consider the sword." -my words.
It was positive that wars were replaced by legal battles over time because civilizations can live with the enforcement of laws much better than the destruction of wars.
"Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. 'He will rule them with an iron scepter.'" - Revelation 19:15.
The Word will return as a sharp sword and failed diplomacy will reveal its true nature for all.
What do you think is happening in the world now?
laws are being replaced by war; I'm not saying that is good.
We actually have more laws instead of wars than before. We did not have the International Court of Justice before. What we lack is an effective enforcement mechanism. If the U.S. decides to take on the role of sheriff, the world may be improved further under Pax Americana.
boy are you off base here. now i understand better your answers on other subjects. read about the nuremberg trials and let me know what your think of american justice.
American justice is not perfect but better than what I have seen in other countries. Do you know why Gitmo detainees wanted to be tried under U.S. laws? It was because they felt that they could get a fairer shake. As I am a U.S. citizen, I can live with Pax Americana extended worldwide.
ok so how has that worked in my lifetime - we can start with korea - read i f stone on the subject and tell me about pax americana. then we have vietnam with all of the horror done to that part of the world. let's not forget the bay of pigs and dominican republic. then we have the reagan wars in central america - do you have any idea what that looked like. pax americana my ass - you must be kidding or completely ignorant of our history. i don't need to go on do i? as mlk said "we are the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today" - or maybe you prefer chomsky "the u.s. is the world's leading terror state" - wow you are on ows and say such nonsense - how is that possible?
Okay, let us start with the two Koreas on the same peninsula to control for most variables. How many South Koreans are risking their lives to cross the DMZ to join North Korea? South Korea has cities of light and high-tech (far better bandwidth than most U.S. cities) but North Korea has the "self-improvement" camps and nearly dark in more senses than just physical. People vote with their feet.
The U.S. has been a stabilizing force for prosperity since World War II. It certainly was not perfect but look at the facts about the countries which have prospered with links to the U.S.: Germany, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, and most important for the world, India and China. Economy-wise, Germany, Japan, India, and China, are respectively the number-5, -4, -3, and -1 in the world. The U.S. devastated Germany and Japan, and China was a sworn Communist enemy. I doubt that there was any other country that could equal the U.S. record of lending a hand to former deadly enemies to prosper.
Nature's supreme law says: anything that can happen does and will happen - OWS or not.
You did not really respond to what I said but that is no surprise. We can discuss your altruistic Marshall plan another time. How about first checking out I f stone instead of your bullshit mainstream history. Then tell me about how wonderful we were in Vietnam or maybe try Haiti. Tell me about our democracy promotion in Central America. Those contra guys were the best don't you think. Please answer my points instead of changing the subject. For once!
"Monroe Doctrine" is just a label to help people think, nothing more and nothing less. The actions of the U.S.A. speak volumes about whether the doctrine is real or not, depending ultimately on people's belief. It is the same with God, Allah, etc. You can say God my ass or Allah my ass. None of those really matter to anyone who have no hot buttons available for pressing. Mentioning Nazis, they usurped the ancient meanings of the swastikas. Now the Jews are all up at arms whenever the swastikas are displayed. It is really the intention that matters. I will bow to your God, or Allah, if it pleases you but I will do that out of my respect for you, not because I believe there is anything at all to your God, or Allah. Nobody needs to take "Monroe Doctrine" seriously if they do not respect the U.S.A., as it has happened before.
pax americana - come on defend it again - let's start up again on inflation. another subject where you have the views of an old white (fairly dumb) man from 1950
"that little weasel obama is still punishing cuba - and why exactly?" is indeed a good question to re-examine after more than 50 years of estrangement.
Cuba violated the Monroe Doctrine and colluded with the Soviet Union. That was a reason for the sanctions. Now the Soviet Union is no more, we may ask if the punishment for Cuba has been sufficient. It is not the policy of the U.S. to engage in forever estrangements (Britain, Germany, Japan, China, and Vietnam are examples) but the punishment must fit the crime. Cuba confiscated private properties so it should give compensations to and seek reconciliation with the injured parties or their descendants. Monroe Doctrine still stands.
Should the prostitudes that permeated Batista's Cuba seek reparations too? Or how 'bout the government officials who conspired with the American Mafia to exploit Cuba, should they get their property back too? Should racism, illiteracy and shitty medical care return to Cuba too? Castro may not be an angel, but Batista was far worse.
you are stupid - sorry to be blunt but i cannot think of another way to respond. monroe doctrine my ass. like that means something. if the nazis called the extermination of the jews the schmidt doctrine you would say it "still stands" - start thinking grape
The Monroe Doctrine has succeeded very well in the Americas. Democracies broke out like measles. Pax Americana works rather well in this neighborhood so exporting it worldwide makes sense. The "greatest purveyor of violence" has the best capabilities to carry out the mandates of the world efficiently, if it should decide to take on the subservient role. Every master loves a guard dog gone violent protecting their interests.
Pax Americana exported worldwide may not be possible without having at least Pax Sinica and Pax Europaea regionally. The great work ahead is to assist China to rise non-threateningly (to its neighbors) to take on stabilizing role. "Genghis Khan on trade missions" is reconstituting the New Silk Road, spreading renminbi as the new reserve currency, and perhaps even purchasing the watershed of Lake Baikal.
"The Monroe Doctrine has succeeded very well in the Americas. Democracies broke out like measles. Pax Americana works rather well in this neighborhood so exporting it worldwide makes sense." you must be kidding. i will not review the record - i assume all here know our shameful history with "our neighbors." that little weasel obama is still punishing cuba - and why exactly? making a population suffer and starve in order to bring down a government is immoral and illegal. now i understand your completely irrational views on inflation and monetary policy. not sure why you are at ows but your ideas about history and money are incorrect - and that is the nicest way for me to put it
No doubt = when was the last time an American was executed by beheading with a dull pocket knife?
I'm not sure what century you are comparing to, but recent history clearly shows we are regressing as far as laws and wars go. I think "Pax Amerika" is very much the instigator to much of this regression. Just look at what is happening in the Middle-East.
I am comparing the twenty first century with the twentieth century. There are fewer major wars between nation-states now than in the twentieth century. The EU is at peace. Japan, China, and their neighbors are mostly at peace. Only Russia is the only major country still engaging in the aggressive acquisition of neighboring countries. I think that much of the stability was due to the U.S. having extended Pax Americana worldwide. Many problems originated from the U.S. refusing to take up the subservient role of being the sheriff to the world. Crumbling Pax Americana creates instabilities.
Middle East's problems are at least many thousands of years old. They were not created by the U.S. but I certainly would agree that the U.S. had muddled the mess in the Middle East, such as the creation of the state of Israel and the invasion of Iraq for destroying the WMDs. The U.S. was too idealistic and was also fumbling by adhering to truthiness.
I admit we were doing pretty good until 2003 when then Prez (ass) Bush invaded Iraq. Things quickly went to crap upon that act. There was a glimmer of hope when Obama was voted in, but that ass turned coat and invaded more countries than his predecessor; some Pax America.
If you still believe in that red white and blue B.S., why I have some real estate in Florida you might be interested in.
I am sticking to that red, white, and blue thing because it will still be the only game in town for the next decade or so. "The Wall must fall" for Human Freedom because We the Peoples hold the sledgehammers.
Pax Americana for the world will be no worse than living with our GREAT GREAT GREAT Big Brother Texass and the Retardicans here in the U.S.A., the "Indispensable Nation."
OH-Bummers presidency could have been much much better - if not for the obstructionism. Still and all - the bastard should face charges of crimes against humanity - for the drone war indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians while going after terrorist targets. The terrorists were in a known location - what harm in waiting for em to leave town - prior to dropping the hammer on their heads? Where were they gonna go? Where were they gonna run and hide? They were located ( fingered and surveiled ) in what basically amounts to the middle of nowhere. So ya got a drone overhead - it runs low on fuel and needs to head back for refueling? No problem - another drone takes up station prior to the drone on task returning to base. NO EXCUSE FOR TAKING OUT INNOCENT NON-COMBATANTS.
Research how Bill Clinton let Osama bin Laden slip through his grasp (eventually it led to 9/11/2001). Bill did not have the gutsiness of Barack, fearing potential repercussions from our "ally," the Saudis.
ol slick willie was (is) a fuck-up in so many ways.
Sad to see the shit that is presented to the people for election to the highest office in the land. No character no morals no will no strength no vision no values no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no noooo
Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act freed the greedy banks to stage the Great Recession. NAFTA opened the floodgate of outsourcing jobs. Bill was immensely influential in setting up the greatest events of this past generation (the hollowing out of the U.S.A., 9/11, and the Great Recession). Somehow kissing bug with Chagas flashed across my mind.
raspberry bushes are prickly
Hence, they must be harvested and pruned back often.
Post Wisconsin melee, Union~Snot Walker uprising, OWS was born.
I suspect you might be right.
I have suspected this all along. And I've been banned/frozen many time for it. And YOU have never agreed with me. So what's up now?
Huh? I never agreed? What gives you that idea. I've always been saying that.
OWS failed to provide the information that the corporate media never will, there are those that fight for the rich to be made richer, they can be identified by the "R" next to their names on the ballot box, if OWS had told this to America there would already be change, instead we attack humans for being human instead of attacking a corrupt system and tearing it apart. OWS was over ran by political want-2-be's also know as the Greens, so it died.
How did the system become so corrupt? Has there been a particular form of evil at work or have the humans involved simply made a long series of honest mistakes?
Unscramble the following letters for the answer.
This idiot always forgets that it was many Dem politicians, mayors and city council members who shut OWS down, and there were also the reports that the administration helped it out too, along with the FBI.
Their stupidity is sucking us all down the hole with em!
ego is root of evil;, ego like that which drives the Greens it is run away ego that corrupts a system....