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Retribution Against the Financial Elite!

Boycott "Black Friday!" Solidarity with Striking Chinese Workers!

Posted 2 years ago on Nov. 25, 2011, 1:36 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt

chinese police

This Black Friday, as millions of Americans scramble to find the "best deals" on consumer goods, thousands of Chinese manufacturing workers are striking to demand livable wages, job security, and other basic rights. In Huangjiang alone, 8,000 striking shoe factory workers took the streets Thursday, blocking roads and standing down lines of riot police. Their factory, owned Yue Yuen Industrial Holdings, is a major provider to the sportswear company New Balance.

It seems fair to say these workers are striking for a "new balance" with their management, and the system of global exploitation that management serves. Facing police repression and media censorship, striking Chinese workers are standing up against the same unfair economic system we are fighting on Wall Street and across the world. Today, Occupiers everywhere are standing up to Boycott Black Friday in an effort to raise awareness about the exploitation and inequalities that produce the goods Americans purchase.

In a rush to get the best deals on merchandise, some shoppers in the U.S. have already turned on one another. News agencies are reporting that a woman in California pepper-sprayed another group of shoppers so she could get a better place in line. This is exactly what the 1% wants: They don't have to pepper-spray the 99% in the United States, because we are pepper-spraying one another, and we are too distracted by consumption to notice that the majority of the products we buy in North America are being produced by workers who are struggling for their basic rights abroad.

We offer an alternative. Countless Occupations have called for a nationwide boycott in support of Buy Nothing Day. Last night, members of Occupy Chicago joined camp-outs in front of department stores like Sears and Best Buy, hoping to start dialog with shoppers while also highlighting the hypocrisy that the government is allowing people to camp in public if they have money to spend on a brand new flat screen TV, but violently attacking homeless people and protesters who camp in public to protest economic inequality. Today, Chicogoans are planning to carol around the downtown shopping district.

protesters in Chicago

Meanwhile, Occupy Atlanta, including many former employees of large retailers, mic-checked crowds (VIDEO) of Black Friday shoppers around midnight last night, while Occupy Portland and surrounding cities planned to Occupy a Wal-Mart (but not buy anything) today. Occupy Boston, Occupy DC, and other cities are hosting "Really Really Free Markets" to share goods with whomever needs them, proving that another world -- and an economy where we take care of one another's needs instead of corporate profits -- is possible. Here in New York, there is a march leaving at 2pm from Liberty Square to Foley Square to mark Black Friday.

Workers in China, in the U.S., and everywhere deserve fair compensation and an equal share in the prosperity our labor produces. In a season defined by consumption and consumerism, we stand in solidarity with the workers of China, and with all those who rise up for the global 99%!

UPDATES

  • Occupy El Paso mic checked a crowd inside Wal-Mart, decrying the evils of union-busting and reminding shoppers of the true cost of low prices -- worker exploitation! VIDEO
  • Up to 10 people were reported arrested at Occupy KC during a Black Friday protest at a Wal Mart.
  • Occupy San Diego mic checked a Wal Mart
  • In Florida, Occupy Tampa mic checked a Wal-Mart, Target, and Best Buy urging consumers to be way of debt and to buy local instead VIDEO
  • Occupy Oakland dropped a "shop local" banner on an IKEA, and then flash mobbed a Target in Emeryville
  • Occupy San Francisco marched around the Union Square shopping center, nonviolently blocking the entrance to an Armani Exchange and causing an Old Navy to lock their doors

black friday

368 Comments

368 Comments


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[-] 13 points by Mark01 (82) 2 years ago

now were talking!!! hit the 1% in their factories!!!

[-] 22 points by sqrltyler (207) 2 years ago

The dark truth behind the OWS crackdown:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/25/shocking-truth-about-crackdown-occupy?fb=optOut

We have struck a chord that will affect the corrupt politicians where it hurts the most, in their pocketbooks.

We must continue to get our agenda heard, as a vast majority of Americans are in support of these items:

No 1 agenda item: get the money out of politics.

No 2: reform the banking system to prevent fraud and manipulation. Restore the Glass-Steagall Act – the Depression-era law, done away with by President Clinton, that separates investment banks from commercial banks. This law would correct the conditions for the recent crisis, as investment banks could not take risks for profit that create kale derivatives out of thin air, and wipe out the commercial and savings banks.

No 3: draft laws against the little-known loophole that currently allows members of Congress to pass legislation affecting Delaware-based corporations in which they themselves are investors.

Instead of letting the media define what we stand for, let's define it for them.

[-] 3 points by afreak (29) from Kensington, England 2 years ago

Thank you so much for this find.

[-] 1 points by jdjay (34) 2 years ago

It's time to hit the 1% with our own global austerity program, global labor strikes. They are the wealth but we are the labor. Make Chomsky's dream a reality. Global working class solidarity is their worst nightmare.

[-] 1 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

Thank you. Thank you!

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 2 years ago

So far the only thing on here that makes some sense. Thank you much

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[-] 0 points by icfmike (173) 2 years ago

Hope they don't go a knockin' on Naomi Wolf's door...

[-] -1 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Funny - I've been trying to point this out all along - change legislation, protest government & politicians, not Wall St. But since I am critical of what OWS has been dong so far, I am labelled a troll. It is exactly this closed-minded thinking that will doom OWS. You need to change your focus to something constructive instead of reactionary if you hope to affect change. This post from sqrltyler is a step in the right direction.

[-] 3 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

I know how you feel, everyone seems to think there is glamor or something in protesting and avoids the progress that could be made through voting for the right candidates. It's a national movement, every big city occupy could field a man or woman for congress.

[-] 3 points by xxcONScIENcExx (172) 2 years ago

and i think that's where it is going... but i also believe that this is the beginning of a long haul... it's completely natural for humans to fear and lash out against what they don't understand. This movement is hard to "understand" right now... but that will change. What if the problem is not the people we vote to represent us in the system? What if the problem is deep-rooted in the system itself? After years of voting in our current system.. on 3 party sides, it has become obvious to me that we live for and accept merely an illusion of democracy.Your and my votes have been bought and sold to the highest bidder. The political corruption platforms must be completely dismantled in order to move forward. I think this is truly an issue the 99% can get behind.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

True to a large extent, that's why groups that can turn out a vote get attention from politicians. AARP, NAACP, NRA, environmental groups all manage to influence congress. Look what the environmental lobby did recently, Obama postponed that pipeline, which may kill it without him actually saying it was good or bad. Typical politician, but the point is the environmental lobby got results.

I doubt you could throw out the current system when 85% of the country is working and somewhat content. Black Friday sales were apparently good so action is going to have to be in small increments.

[-] 3 points by xxcONScIENcExx (172) 2 years ago

Absolutely. I am employed and somewhat content.... but for me... being somewhat content is not enough for what I intend to leave behind for my children. Apathy has spiraled out of control... It's time.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Im with ya. I want to leave my kids with ALOT, it is the only reason I work as hard as I do.

[-] 3 points by monicab (6) 2 years ago

"leave my kids with ALOT" - Wow! Apathy, in my book, hasn't spiraled in terms of monetary percentages as much as it has spiraled in terms of the value of what we leave our kids. If parents had thought less about leaving money, and kids hadn't been raised to believe in the work of their parents' being a birthright in terms of a huge inheritance, maybe subsequent generations would have been better prepared to prevent the need for OWS. The "ALOT" I would suggest we leave our kids is capability, a strong skill base, an awareness of a responsibility to themselves for their future, less reliance on a government that doesn't care.

[-] 1 points by GamesStrategyGamblingScience (6) from Elmhurst, IL 2 years ago

Great point. If your parental focus is leaving your children "a house, some cash, and [your] business", you're making a mistake that's been tragically highlighted countless times over the last few years. When you're 50 and the bankers have stolen your house and cash, and left your business unable to compete with mega-corps, what will your kids do?

Real economic security comes not from your corporate job, but from your capacity to produce valued work going forward, i.e. your skills and education. Like the material wealth you'd like to accumulate and pass on, your job can also disappear in a flash, completely beyond your control. What will happen to your kids if your job is shipped overseas or you become disabled?

What can you do? 1)Buy adequate insurance. 2)Dedicate yourself to continuing your education, increasing your skills and maintaining your relevance in the economy. Conditions are changing so fast now (and accelerating), you'll need to run to stand still. 3)Let that be the example for your children, and they'll have their best chance of success on their own.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Dont worry, they will be all good with that. I guess I should clarify what a lot, to me, is:

A house, some cash, and my business.

The other stuff you mentioned should be assumed, but I agree with you that many arent getting even the basics of what really matters in life. The best way to get those later things across to kids is leading by example.

[-] 2 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

This is what I hope OWS will do. Put forth people from the movement to represent and run for office. There are plenty of good people within Occupy. We The People must Occupy Congress and form a new government.The current government representives must be removed with haste.Destruction of the middle and working class people has gone to far. We can no longer carry this weight on our backs.

The current 2 party system no longer works or benefits the 99% !

[-] 0 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Yes JPB950, that sounds more constructive. Unfortunately there appears to be a LOT of socialist-leaning types in OWS who don't believe the movement should have leaders, and from what I have seen are very aggressively against it. My argument is that politicians are not supposed to be leaders anyway - they are supposed to be representatives of the whole, but try telling that to some of the people in OWS lol.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

Hate to mention them, but the tea party seems leaderless, yet they managed to elect some reps. You can put together a committee and get things done, or just go from one action to another without direction.

[-] 1 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I give credit where credit is due. Tea party made their point and there was no confrontations or damage, so I cant fault them for that. They do have smaller groups within the whole which have leaders though.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

If having a spokes person or leader of sorts helps achieve larger goals the group should really swallow their individual egos and get on with the work.

[-] 3 points by LvsPnthers (3) 2 years ago

It has to START somewhere and OWS IS the START!

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[-] 0 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

True. It was promising to start with, but seems to be heading is the wrong direction imho.

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[-] -2 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

You won't get anything if corrupt officials don't think you'll vote. Hold some voter registration action and support someone for congress that support your view.

The economic boycott may not be effective, Black Friday sales were up this year. In spite of the bad press over shopping violence.

[-] 2 points by xxcONScIENcExx (172) 2 years ago

You're absolutely right! The vote was designed to hold power over corrupt officials. The biggest problem is that it's not the officials that start off corrupt. It's the system that makes them that way. Voting alone will not change anything until we dismantle deep rooted political corruption platforms within the system. These are the cancers within our system that need addressed. "We the Sheeple" have been taught that all we need to do is vote and then our part is done. Look where that has gotten us.

[-] 0 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

I suppose anyone in office a while will get corrupted, but until a better system is developed and accepted changing politicians frequently is all we can do. The problem is partly with ourselves too, everyone thinks congress is corrupt, but their guy is ok.

[-] 4 points by xxcONScIENcExx (172) 2 years ago

I think that is part of what OWS is accomplishing. Voting for our guy is not all we can do. People are awakening to the truth about how this system operates and are speaking up, sitting down, and having meaningful discussions.

[-] 1 points by infokat (25) 2 years ago

That's why I am for term limits.

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[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6276) 2 years ago

"yours “taking over our own workplaces” sounds a bit too 1917 for my stomach"

There´s really nothing controvercial about this if you think about it. It just means expanding democracy to the workplaces and communities. More democracy!

Pleace read "The Society We Should Strive For"

"I despise the Bolshevik revolution"

Me too. Leninism is awful.

What we need is a society based on Anarcho-Syndicalism/Libertarian Socialism, that is: non-hierarchical egalitarian democracy built from the bottom up.

"financed by zionists and performed by jews"

I gotta tellyou, I don´t like the sound of this. Stop blaming minorities and certain ethnic or religious groups!

struggleforfreedom

[-] 1 points by Thinkdeer (250) 2 years ago

scapegoating gets us nowhere. Focus on what to build.

[-] 1 points by JeffersonNotMao (3) 2 years ago

Are are too ignorant to understand that YOU DO THE BIDDING OF THE 1%

I believe it was Lennin who once called people like you and I quote "Useful Idiots"

Meanwhile the majority of American society HATES YOU'RE IDEAS as they are Anti American to the core !!!

We like competion, private property and the abillity to chose what we do in life !

[-] 1 points by ClericTGLAM (11) from Middle, NJ 2 years ago

It's not about ideologies and alternatives to them , when democracy was created by the greeks it was a mind blowing event , that never extinguished , but in the 20-th century milions of men died in wars to "protect " them , to protect 2 big ideas : democracy and socialism . We dont want this kind of outcomes . Oh , and a 3-rd motive , was , is , and will be , a piece of worthless paper , reedemable in nothing , called euro , dollar , yen ...... money and greed . If we do not change ,we will self-destruct as a race .

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[-] 0 points by shoesandtables (20) 2 years ago

A video showing the "WEALTH GAP" in the United States. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7tmZv1o5Ac

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[-] -1 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Hit the 1% in their factories and they will just pass on the cost to the 99% with increased prices. You need to start thinking a bit more clearly and stop being reactionary. The government are the enablers - the only way to stop what is happening is with legislation. Protesting Wall St isn't going to do a damn thing.

[-] 2 points by mja (14) 2 years ago

politians are interchangable, thats why Wall st should be the main focus

[-] -1 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Fine. Sit there and protest at Wall St, and they will continue to mock you and nothing will change because it doesn't matter if you throw a tantrum, it's business as usual for them - they don't need your approval nor your votes. Politicians do. Starting to connect the dots yet?

[-] -1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6276) 2 years ago

Exactly. Striking and taking over our own workplaces and running them democratically ourselves, building democracy from the bottom up, should be prioritized more and more as our movement grows:

"The Transition Phase: The Road to Freedom"

"The Society We Should Strive For"

Noam Chomsky: Alternatives to Capitalism I

Noam Chomsky: Alternatives to Capitalism II

yours sff

[-] 0 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

You seem to have confused democracy with socialism my friend.

[-] 0 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6276) 2 years ago

Nope. libertarian socialism / anarcho-syndicalism just means expanding democracy to workplaces and communities. Building democracy from the bottom up

[-] 0 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

So in the situation where someone has worked their entire life to build up a business and has been successful, you want to take it from them and let 'the workers' run it instead. And what about the unlikely happenstance that this workers utopia is a huge success and you all make millions and open new factories up and employ more people.. I guess it will be ok for those new people to take everything you worked for and kick you to the curb, because that's only fair right? And then when they have success, guess what? It happens again. The end result - nobody works hard because in the end they lose it. In pure socialism, they never get it in the first place, no matter how hard they work, so why bother working hard? The lowest common denominator becomes the new norm. Great. You forget about human nature. It may not fit the utopian agenda, but you'll have to deal with it regardless. DOH!

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6276) 2 years ago

THis person has not "built it up" by himself, he´s had a lot of help. Society has given him most of the goods he´s enjoying and the workers have made him the profit and capital to "build" http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/1320872575_the_free_ride_society.html But are you rejecting the idea of democracy, and if not, shouldnt workplaces and communities be run democratically? It´s just common sense, my friend: http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/1320873951_the_society_we_should.html

Creativity and the need to work is human nature: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WveI_vgmPz8 that´s why Anarcho Syndicalism should be the social organization - a society where individuals can live out their creativity based on their own capacity

[-] 0 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Where the workers are abused (ie: sweat shops and the like), taxes are evaded, illegal shortcuts are taken, yes, I agree 100% these type of people should be dealt with severely, and it is because of them legislation needs to change. In the case where the owner is paying people a fair living wage, keeping to their legal obligations both in tax and the way they do business, and generally operating ethically, then no, I can not agree with you. The problem right now is that there are certain businesses that can operate within the law, but have so much money they can leverage things in their favor - hedge fund managers would be a classic example of this. This is where the law (as it stands now) fails us, but again, this is a change in legislation required to rectify it, not just a matter of charging into their offices and demanding a take-over.

.As far as a need to work being human nature - I definitely have to question that; the amount of lazy people I have had to deal with who seem to go out of their way to avoid work is disturbing.. it seems many would rather sit back and do nothing and demand their needs be supplied by basically anyone who earns more than they do. As much as there is a problem with greed, there is also a problem with entitlement.

That's my experience in life.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6276) 2 years ago

What you say is totally irrelevant if you like democracy. Corporations are private tyrannies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqlTyAMVDUk (watch the video before you answer please) If you like the idea of democracy you shouldnt favor institutions being run based on a tyrannical model. People should be able to have a say in the things that affect them, and should be in control of their own work, that means workplaces should be run democratically.

Of curse people become demotivated when you have to work in a totalitarian institution taking orders from the dictators that run the institution (CEOs owners etc) http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/1320871888_replace_capitalism_wi.html People feel alienated from their work. And when wages for working people stagnate and decline, and education in the US isn´t free (unlike many other industrilized countries) that´s not helping either. Creativity, engagement and other human characteristics like solidarity and atruism will come to the fore in a free society

[-] 0 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I disagree. If the workers determine everything, then it is just as justified to say they are exploiting the employer. If a job is on offer at a reasonable living wage (which I what I said above) then how can it be tyrannical - this is not (yet) a serfdom where people are forced to work at a job whether they like it or not - you have freedom of choice to take that job or not, and to look for something else that suits you better if that is what you wish.

I don't think I earn as much as I probably should based on my experience and qualifications, but to call my working situation a tyrannical suffering under a totalitarian institution is utterly ridiculous. Yes I take orders, and I am compensated for it. If I was not being paid, then you'd have a point.

Also as I already said, for some, if you leave them in control of their own work and what they choose to do - guess what? The work ain't going to get done. I don't know what cotton-wool world you've been living in, but I'm talking about cold reality.

Sure if you live in a commune (which I did for a while years ago) and everyone is dedicated to the cause, it can work for a while, but all it takes is one person not pulling their weight and the whole thing collapses - I've seen it happen up close and personal in that situation, and I've seen it happen with the collapse of entire economies over the years. It is obtuse to deny this fact, which is what you appear to be doing.

Your theory may be idealistic, but practice is an entirely different thing. Many people, when given the choice, will behave like water and take the path of least resistance. This is a reality.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6276) 2 years ago

The workers shouldn´t determine everything. There should be democracy on all levels, workplaces, communities, federations etc. The Society We Should Strive For

I did not say that you are suffering at work. I´m saying that a corporation has a totalitarian model. The CEO, owners etc, the people on the top of the hierarchy make decitions and give all the other people involved in the institution orders. The institution is not democratically run, ergo it´s a tyranny.

[-] 0 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Anything that is not a democracy but has some semblance of a hierarchical structure is a tyranny? LOL ..You said there should be democracy on all levels.. "levels" infers there is a hierarchical structure - workers, supervisors, bosses etc.. ergo a tyranny. Doh!

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

"Anything that is not a democracy but has some semblance of a hierarchical structure is a tyranny? LOL "

Your response is one of the effects of being brainwashed to think this kind of thing is acceptable. We have been brainwashed to accept such things in our society. Now, people are questioning them and are calling them out for being unfair. And people like you laugh at them.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6276) 2 years ago

"Anything that is not a democracy but has some semblance of a hierarchical structure is a tyranny?"

Yes, hierarchies that are not democratic are tyrannical.

"You said there should be democracy on all levels.. "levels" infers there is a hierarchical structure"

I have never said that I necessarily oppose all kinds of hierarchies in any way shape or form, What Im saying is that I oppose hierarchies that are not democratic. There has to be representation even in an Anarcho-Syndicalist society, but they would be democraticaally elected recallable delegates representing the group/organization to which they belong.

[-] 0 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

And who decides when the line is crossed between your version of democracy and the next persons' version? I think I see what you are trying to get at, but your interpretation is (as I understand it) subjective, and at the moment sounds awfully contradictory as a result. In fact, I don't think this is something anyone can stick a pin in and say "this is what it is, and any other interpretation is wrong".. in fact doing so would, ironically, go completely against the idea of democracy. Fun, right? lol. When is a democracy not a democracy? I don't know - I'll have to check with everyone else. :)

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6276) 2 years ago

You re making no sense.

[-] 0 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Try harder.

[-] 0 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I will add that this entitlement issue is a relatively new thing - in as far as how widespread it is. There was always a small fraction of the populace who seemed to think they should not have to work or contribute in any way, but that small fraction has grown immensely in the last decade or two, in my experience. The majority of this experience is in westernized society though.

[-] 2 points by divineright (664) 2 years ago

And those people are called politicians. Lol.

[-] 1 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

ROFLMAO yes them too!

[-] -1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

But then how will you post messages to web sites? Locally-grown computers?

[-] 5 points by Ubuntu (34) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Corporations are not the problem, manufacturing is not the problem, corporate greed is the problem, profit over human life and sustainability is a problem. There can be cooperations that are not greedy. It is possible in a sustainable economy.

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[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

A corporation's purpose is to make a profit. A corporation needs profit like humans need food and water. What corporation can you cite that is successful, yet isn't focused on making a profit? A successful-and-unprofitable corporation an oxymoron, because the success of a corporation is measured by its profitability.

[-] 4 points by Ubuntu (34) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Corporations making profit is ,again, not the problem. Corporate greed is...as in if they are making profit off the suffering of people or by pushing something they know is not sustainable (or obviously destructive). Profit/money has a greater value than human life. This is an oxymoron because what is their wealth and power without people? Take humanity out of the equation and money has no value. The idea is to stop looking at your feet while you walk, look ahead, look forward.

[-] 2 points by red66 (9) 2 years ago

yes, you can't have democracy without the striving forward which is at its heart. competition, profit, the right to be wealthy, the right to succeed is the engine of capitalism..unrestrained financial evolution..if you toss out greed, you toss out capitalism and democracy ...this is all about accountability; those who sew should reap. when wall street roles the dice it should pay the price.

[-] 2 points by Ubuntu (34) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

When is Wall St. not rolling the dice?

I also disagree that democracy and capitalism are dependant upon greed. With that said I could care less what ism we decide upon as long as it works in favor of humanity and the earth. So if we have to scrap democracy and capitalism so be it. So far neither has worked. So far we have never seen a pure version of either so lets not be so precious about our isms. BTW unrestrained financial evolution is neither important nor possible so we should start by burning that bag of crap on the white house steps and have them stomp it out.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Democracy and capitalism are not the same thing, nor do they depend on each other. Just look at Scandinavia, in which countries have a mostly socialist economies. Equating democracy with capitalism is equating apples and oranges.

Democracy's forward stride is driven by changing perceptions of justice. Greed is not the engine for that.

The issue isn't about Wall Street paying the price: if there were no bail-out, the economy would have collapsed completely. Today's horrible unemployment would look like a walk in the park by comparison. Instead, the issue is making sure they can never roll OUR dice so recklessly again. And the issue is to make sure they can never capture our representatives and regulators again.

I agree that accountability is central, but it is the accountability of elected representative to US, the VOTERS, instead of those that bribe them, that is a main point this movement is trying to address.

Just to be clear, I am not anti-capitalist. I am against corruption and a specific flavor of Milton Freidman capitalism, both of which undermine democracy and equity alike.

[-] 2 points by pleasewakeup (17) 2 years ago

you are SO SO WRONG about the bailout. read Taibbi or Elizabeth Warren. Stop spouting bs that you don't understand. NO BAILOUT WAS NEEDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The government was equipped to provide liquidity directly or take equity stakes in the banks it bailed out. YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKIMG ABOUT!

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Read Krugman or any other non-partisan, non-aligned economist.

Regardless, that is hardly the point. The issue is STILL making sure that banks can never again do what they did. The issue is making sure there are laws and regulation with real teeth to reign them in.The issue is the corruption caused by extreme concentrations of power and wealth to a very few, and the undermining of the entirely system of democracy.

.

[-] 3 points by pleasewakeup (17) 2 years ago

PS: You cannot regulate GS & JPM. They bribe politicians to make laws that allow them to do whatever they want --- Don't you see?!? What they do is "legal" just like concentration camps (or Japanese internment camps) were "legal" .... Politicians will ALWAYS take bribes. Honest ones get shot. WAKE UP to the reality. The system cannot be "fixed".... The answer is either Americans wake up and fight back in the streets together OR stay home and be lead into slavery like sheep to slaughter.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

You have yet to put forward an alternative.

[-] 1 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

I couldnt have said it better. Thank you.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

The system cannot be overthrown. For that to happen overwhelming popular support is required, and that is not where the U.S. is.

On the other hand, the system can not only be fixed, but it HAS BEEN fixed in the past.

The New Deal addressed the very same concerns that OWS is addressing now, and created income distribution equity, upward economic mobility, economic expansion, expanded worker's rights and labor laws, and a depression-free economy for 50 years, until Reagan.

If you want revolution, we will all fail. And the attempt even has the real and likely potential to generate a backlash that would negatively impact reform efforts for another generation. That is a real disservice to everyone, the 99% that this movement seeks to help.

If, on the other hand, we seek the kinds of reforms that everyone views as reasonable (who can argue with wanting to get corruption and money out of politics?) then there is a good chance for moving forward.

You can insist on trying the former, an exercise in narcissism and hubris. Or you can do the less romantic, but more effective work of reform. It's not as sexy, but it is what's needed.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Yes. If there were proper regulations in place, there wouldn't need to be a debate about whether the bailout was necessary or not.

[-] 0 points by pleasewakeup (17) 2 years ago

Krugman is a status quo hack. You should not consider him unbiased or valuable. He manipulates at an 8th grade level and cannot be taken seriousky. Watch any of these:

m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DXrFeGUGeZEE&v=XrFeGUGeZEE&gl=US

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

He just won the Nobel Prize, and I believe his understanding of economics is a smidge better than yours. I also happen to agree with his assessments, which are frankly more in line with OWS goals and methods than you seem to be. Krugman has also come out in strong support of OWS, so perhaps a little less condescension from you about him would be in order. (And he and Elizabeth Warren agree with each other more than you seem to think.) You appear to be operating from a narrow ideological basis. It's too bad, really.

But as I said, Krugman's analysis is not the point. To repeat: "The issue is STILL making sure that banks can never again do what they did. The issue is making sure there are laws and regulation with real teeth to reign them in.The issue is the corruption caused by extreme concentrations of power and wealth to a very few, and the undermining of the entirely system of democracy."

The fact that you respond to that statement by calling Krugman a hack - which, whether true or not is entirely unrelated - tells me that you seem to desire being proven right and superior more than you care about the movement's success.

By the way, your links don't work.

[-] 1 points by RogerDee (411) from Montclair, NJ 2 years ago

When you recognize the narrative of failed policy, you'll see someone supporting more failed policies of the 1%, or maybe more aptly the top .35%.

[-] 1 points by pleasewakeup (17) 2 years ago

Obama won a Nobel peace prize and then proceeded to wage more war. click here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrFeGUGeZEE

let me explain one last time: successful companies, most relevant today: banks, make money (they're successful remember). they use money to drive out competition so they can act monopolistically. they use money to own politicians who then make laws favorable to them or reign in well meaning regulators (like Elizabeth warren)

Krugman (and you) dream of the superhero regulator who will stop them but IT IS A DREAM! They are working class people who can be paid off. How much would it take to pay you off? $100,000? $1 million? $1 billion? there is a number, its not your (or their) fault, you and them have families....

but please please don't listen to Krugman. inflating the dollar into nothing will hurt working class Americans way more than the 1% (who are already, I assure you, in gold) ---

Krugman is a traitor to the 99% because he tricks well-intentiined people like you into thinking the bailout was necessary to avoid economic collapse. THIS IS A HUGE LIE and either he knows it, or he is stupid, either way he is pathetic.

Think outside the box here, pal. Think about direct democracy. think about fighting government infringement on liberty (patriot act). think about effective estate taxes. read John Rawls Theory of Justice. think about putting wall st as*holes in PRISON for RICO and Fraud and then lets talk about an alternative.

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

You are wrong on so many levels, including you characterization of Krugman's position (and mine) I don't think I can count them. Your interpretation of Krugman's solution as inflation is, frankly, idiotic. His primary solution has always been investment in job creation, and WPA-like programs in the short term, plus universal health care, plus debt relief for students, plus debt relief for underwater homeowners including a moratorium on foreclosures, plus steeply graduated progressive taxes on the wealthy, plus re-establishment of Glass-Steagal, etc. Gee, sounds like MOST of the very things OWS wants.

Yes, we all understand how monopolies work. Both Krugman and I get it. But the way to change that is by changing the system, not throwing it out the window. It may be a less romantic, less ideal, less utopian solution, but what you propose will never happen, because you just don't get how completely rejected that notion is - rightly or wrongly; it doesn't matter which - by the overwhelming majority of your fellow citizens. You ask me to think "outside the box" but you really need to think outside yourself.

If you want to change the very basis of this country's system from representative democracy to direct democracy, and think that such a change can happen in your lifetime, you're living in a world of delusion so huge that medication is to be recommended.

Direct democracy, anarcho/syndicatism, libertarian socialism, and so on, may ultimately become the way of the world, and are in SOME ways (absolutely not all) preferable IN THEORY to what we have now. It doesn't matter in the least. It's pie in the sky. You will never convince a critical mass of people in this country to suddenly change their hundreds-year-old system of governance for another. That will never happen.

Sorry to throw cold water on your fantasies, but the issue is to fix the current system, not throw it out. It will be hard work, and the odds are long that anything substantial will be accomplished, and it will likely take at least a decade to make it happen, but it is doable. It has been done before (the New Deal, and the Great Society). And it is doable because getting the money out of politics (which is the root of all the problems we see today) is something 99% of the people can support. No revolution can occur without a critical mass of such support. Those revolutions that have happened without overwhelming popular support have another name: tyranny.

[-] 1 points by GamesStrategyGamblingScience (6) from Elmhurst, IL 2 years ago

The 1% HATE inflation because they have the money, and the more money you have the more inflation costs you. I don't know about you, but my net worth is negative... Devaluing their imaginary money is one way of leveling the playing field. That counts as radical thinking to an inside-the-box thinker like Krugman, but collapse of the global financial system is inevitable at this point (esteemed economists like Roubini agree). A full overhaul is needed, including a new currency created by a National Infrastructure Bank. When The System comes down and they try for more bailouts, the People shouldn't accept less.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

I read that blog post the day it originally was posted. Krugman was talking about inflation in terms of everything else I mentioned, as opposed to imposing austerity (which is what the governments are doing, disastrously). He was trying to counter the false fears, the myths, about inflation that the banks were putting forth so they wouldn't be subject to losses by potentially un-bank friendly actions by Angela Merkel or the IMF. He was countering that mythology of inflation=collapse that was driving a contraction of social services, and was hurting millions of people. He was talking about how inflation effects long term national debt, how it blunts the impact of deficits, (a purely objective and obvious fact) and fears of inflation should not to be used as an excuse to hurt people by instituting draconian austerity measures while protecting banking interests.

You point to that one article without that context or understanding, ignoring the scores and scores in which he talks about the need for job creation, exposes crony corrupt capitalism, attacks neo-liberalism (the Chicago school, Freidman) defends workers and unions, pushes for universal health care, and on and on and on. That you would do so is utterly disingenuous, and either represents the fact that you don't know anything about the person's positions you condemn, or you are making a conscious attempt to deceive. Either way, it makes you completely, utterly untrustworthy.

What's even more interesting is that you STILL have not responded to the substance of the points I made, and are still stuck on demonizing Krugman, which is totally irrelevant.

You have still not put forward what you propose, choosing instead to repeatedly slander a man who is among the strongest SUPPORTERS of OWS in the American media. You seem to think that by suggesting reading lists, the majority of this country will magically want to throw out representative democracy in favor of your system, WHICH YOU HAVE YET TO ARTICULATE.

You strike me as someone very, very young, someone who is more bound up in a recent discovery of theory, or a sense of how very special he is because he understands the neo-Hegelian roots of Anarcho-syndicalist post modernism, etc. You don't begin to look outside of your ideals to see what would actually be effective. Everything is all or nothing for you; overthrow the entire system, not work to fix it, and fuck anyone who doesn't agree with your version of the ideal. (Never mind that in a mass movement, one must actually garner mass support.... such a pesky little detail). You live completely in your head, and completely IN LOVE with your own head. In other words, you are a narcissist.

One last thing: you make assumptions - based on nothing - that others haven't already thought "outside of the box" and haven't determined, based on actual experience, that some alternatives are unworkable. For example, you assumed that I know nothing about the workings of direct democracy. Yet I lived in a community built around anarcho/syndicalist (socialist/libertarian) principles for seven years, a place in which every major and minor issue alike was decided entirely by direct democracy. (And I loved every minute of the 7 years, but also know that it is a system completely impossible for largre-scale culture.) Your assumption of my ignorance points only to your arrogance.

[-] 1 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

They did NOT need a bailout.We did not need our treasury robbed by the politicians and wallstreet bankers. It was Greed plain and simple that motivated them to want more money...more power!

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Most economists, non-partisan, non-aligned, disagree.

But that's hardly the point. What led to that in the first place is the point. That the banks got bailed out while the people continue to be foreclosed upon, and unemployed, and uninsured, and the banks gathering even more power and influence SINCE they got bailed out is the point. The underlying corruption is the real problem.

But let's say you're right and I'm wrong. The issue is not looking back on it, but how to move forward so it never happens, either by choice or necessity, ever again.

I think on that we are agreed.

[-] 1 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

you're partly right and Im right.

[-] 1 points by pleasewakeup (17) 2 years ago

economists?????????? who gives a fck what economists think? why do you? do you have an inferiority complex because you don't feel academically accomplished enough? economists are as*holes. if they knew anything about economics of finance they would be retired in Hawaii and not adding their stupid name to your list of agreeing with the private corrupt anti American EVIL FED. EVIL.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Doctors???????? Who gives a fck what doctors think when one is ill? Who gives a fck what scientists think about evolution or particle physics? Who gives a fck what architects think about load-bearing walls when putting up a large building?

If you don't understand what an economist does, (and by your comment you clearly show that you don't) you have no legitimate voice in a movement that is at its heart about economics.

For the second or third time, you ignored the what was being said in the post your responded to.(Here's a reminder: "What led to that in the first place is the point", and "But let's say you're right and I'm wrong................".) Considering the most generous view of your oversight is that you consistently misunderstand what is being said, how, then, do you think you can be taken seriously in your analysis of and especially prescriptions for economics and political systems?

I really don't know what axe you are grinding. I don't really care. But I know that your agenda hurts, not helps, OWS.

[-] 2 points by Ubuntu (34) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I agree ,sort of, but the bailout was not about them getting rich or accumulating more money. At the level of economy they are at the accumulation of money is no longer the point. Their power comes from control, population control. They took the money not to get rich but to instigate or catalyze the relationship with the population that we see now. In essence they were removing money that we depend upon at our level, from circulation in order to direct an emotional/psychological response within the population. The way they have set up the system is so that the top few are above wealth, beyond it entirely. They could give or take a million and their life would not change a bit. So why do they want more mone? Why do they get bonuses? Because if they harvest their money at strategic moments they can send the general population into survival mode or into a comfort zone. They can creat feelings of security amongst the masses or feelings of dread and fear of the future. They have set it up so the top few can create as sort of submission hold upon the general population. They do this much like slave owners except a little more indirect. They can own you by owning all of your property and your money. That money was printed from a loan in the first place. So for every dollar that exists we owe the top few something. Thus they own all the money and owning money, or having the world in debt to them, is the main objective of these people. In their mind if they own our money they own us and reserve the right to hold us accountable to that debt. This from their perspective justifies controlling the population. We are just renting their dollars from them. Money is just a mechanism of control to them. After all how can we pay our debt to the Federal Reserve if they loan out more than they print. So in essence America and perhaps the world is just a slave plantation to them. They created the economic system so it would be that way. They don't need more money and they know that but the one thing that stops them from ever losing their stature in society is that they control the flow of money. Imagine how it was before this type of currency. How about when people used, shells, livestock, or gold? this type of manipulation was not even possible back then because no human being controled the limit of wealth. Nature provided the limits and the value.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by Uspatriot5000 (128) 2 years ago

Corporations that are public companies have to please\answer to the shareholders. Those are the ones who demand the profits. Who do you think are the largest share holders?? In most cases, these are pension funds (union and non-union) and 401k plans. Therefore, any of you who have either a pension or a 401k are party to the greed you are protesting.

[-] 1 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

don't have a 401k anymore.

[-] 1 points by Uspatriot5000 (128) 2 years ago

Well, you are in the minority. Some of the largest share holders are union and state pensions. That covers a huge number of people. Those people want their retirements, so they have a vested interest in the stock market doing well.

[-] 1 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

The circumstances behind my not having a 401k anymore are not available on this thread. It is certainly not because I don't want one. However your best value is precious metals and stones.

401ks have been getting raided and eliminated by very greedy people...hence Emron etc!! The housing bubble busted.The markets with their "fake money" can crash at anytime.

My mother always said "pay your mortgage first so you can have somplace to lay your head" Homes are not comoditiies,they are human necessaties.

As my father always said,"show your wealth on your women"... jewelry! Very good value for very hardtimes. Eventually gold,silver and diamonds will be the currency.

[-] 1 points by Ubuntu (34) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I don't have either and never have.

[-] 0 points by Uspatriot5000 (128) 2 years ago

But most people do.

[-] 2 points by GamesStrategyGamblingScience (6) from Elmhurst, IL 2 years ago

source?

[-] 4 points by talkinboutarevolution (54) 2 years ago

The CEO's and some below them don't have to be multi billionaires is the thing.

[-] 0 points by ComunistUSA (58) 2 years ago

And you don't have to be poor. Whats your point?

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

And you don't have to be a blind fool.

[-] 3 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

ebay vs newmark (craigslist), a corporation cannot be for-profit-alongside-society, it is legally required to be for-profit to shareholders. So technically I don't agree with you. A corporation can have a for-profit-alongside-society stance if laws we're changed to reflect that. As they stand now, even if a CEO makes a decision that he/she sees mutually beneficial to the corp. and society, he could be sued on grounds of not putting shareholder-profits first. That's stupid in my book.

[-] 3 points by woof68 (3) from Montgomery, NY 2 years ago

Corporations do not need to get FAT. When you and I eat, do we eat so much that we get bloated and fat? Or do we eat a normal portion? If the answer is the former, then we have a problem. The same is true with corporations.

[-] -1 points by ComunistUSA (58) 2 years ago

That's the awesome thing about America, you can eat as much as you want.

[-] 3 points by 4TheHumanSocietyProject (504) 2 years ago

The problem is humans work for money not for the sake of humanity.

[-] 1 points by quercus (93) 2 years ago

'the problem is humans work for money not for the sake of humanity'

humanity is an evolve-ongoing abstraction.

money is a material object.

to confuse the two is called REIFICATION.

the question is what is a human worth? what price humanity?

remember: work makes freedom

[-] 3 points by 4TheHumanSocietyProject (504) 2 years ago

I do not agree with you. There is no price on humanity. the bottom line is humans should work to insure the survival of the human race not because they want nice things or because they have to do it. They should do it because they love the human race and want the human race to prosper. We as a human race should be free. No one should tell you what to do. YOU should make the right choice.

[-] 0 points by ComunistUSA (58) 2 years ago

stop telling me what to do.

[-] 2 points by 4TheHumanSocietyProject (504) 2 years ago

should is not telling you what do. I am merely suggesting.

should/SHo͝od/ Verb:

Used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness, typically when criticizing someone's actions: "he should have been careful".
Indicating a desirable or expected state: "by now students should be able to read".
[-] 0 points by ComunistUSA (58) 2 years ago

well played ; )

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

A corporation can make good profits while also paying its employees livable wages and decent benefits and treating them with respect. Doing so isn't rocket science and isn't impossible. You are saying that in order to make profits, corporations must shit on all its employees, except for the ones at the top.... and you are completely wrong.

Take a look at Trader Joe's as one example.

[-] 1 points by GamesStrategyGamblingScience (6) from Elmhurst, IL 2 years ago

You may be right, but Trader Joe's is not a great example. While the migrant workers picking their produce are not technically their employees, they are in fact getting shit on, and Trader Joe's is complicit.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

How do you know where their produce comes from? From what I've read, they don't disclose where they get their produce from. Also, they carry many fair trade items..... something you don't find at most stores. A good amount of their coffee is fair trade coffee, and they carry other fair trade items.

Furthermore, I was speaking specifically about how they pay and treat their DIRECT employees as compared to any other retailer in the U.S. The others fail miserably at it.

[-] 2 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Just wanted to toss out a couple "non-profits" into the discussion.

Blue Cross and Blue Shield

Mayo Clinic

Goodwill Industries Inc./ Easter Seals

St. John's University

Make A Wish

Fannie Mae ( added this one for a full spectrum and to help point out the real problem )

Corporation means a company or group of people authorized to act as a single entity (legally a person) and recognized as such by law.

[-] 2 points by independentmind (227) 2 years ago

BCBS is hardly non-profit. The majority of plans are for profit and they recorded profits in the billions last year.

And are sickly representative of the problems with our current health care system.

I don't advocate for Universal Healthcare, but I do advocate non-profit healthcare... as I have been in the "fight the insurance company" business for a very long time...

BCBS has gone from the creme of the crop to the worst of the bunch.

[-] 1 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

Agreed. A friend of mine was V.P. at BCBS. Trust me it was allll profit. I have BCBS,they've milked me for every penny in and out of pocket.

[-] 2 points by SeaChange (134) 2 years ago

Your definition of a corporation is tautological. But there are ways of organizing society other than corporations structured purely around profit extraction. A great deal of the actual innovation in our society comes from the largely public-funded research departments in universities (this played a crucial role in the development of computers, for example). Not all "innovation" is useful however, and "innovation" that aims primarily to produce a profit, can be largely destructive (see Wallstreet's innovations of the mortgage backed security and the credit default swap).

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Do you know what a tautology is? How is, "A corporation's purpose is to make a profit", a tautology?

[-] 2 points by SeaChange (134) 2 years ago

You define a corporation as a priori 'a thing that must make a profit to be successful', i.e., your definition of 'success' is 'profit'. You then go on to ask 'can anyone cite an example of a corporation that does not make a profit and is yet successful?'

This is circular reasoning, otherwise known as a tautology (you yourself admitted it as an oxymoron). There are other measures of the success of an organization besides profit, yet this limited reasoning does not allow for them.

[-] 3 points by Joe4more (165) from Cranston, RI 2 years ago

Your comments reflect my bias when politicians try to sell themselves as business men, who are capable of transferring their "business" skills, largely gained by employment as a CEO, or other business ownership, to public service. Does an MBA curriculum contain the same teachings as an MPA? The answer is no! A Governor who worked in public service all his life wouldn't last 1 week as a CEO in a for profit corporation. The same is true when a former CEO thinks they can apply what they learned to public service. Examples of my point include, but are not limited to S. Forbes, R. Perot, H. Cain, and last but not least - Willard Mitt Romney, the failed Governor of Mass.

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

This is a response to SeaChange:

There may be other such measures, but OWS will not create such a change. Greed is part of humanity. It may be ugly, but it will be there until we evolve into a species other than we currently are.

The issue, as far as I can see, is not to set up an entirely different culture, (undoable) but to take the necessary steps to insure that the one we have is equitable and works for all people. It is not a question of changing greed, but one of eliminating, to the best of our ability, the negative consequences of greed.

Until being decimated, labor unions have provided some of that benefit, and regulations have filled other gaps (that is, until the 1% made sure those regulations were repealed, were rendered toothless, or simply not enforced). Steeply graduated progressive taxes also helped.

Changing human nature is beyond the scope of OWS or any other movement. Changing the way the system operates is not, and has been done before, notably by FDR and LBJ.

[-] 1 points by GamesStrategyGamblingScience (6) from Elmhurst, IL 2 years ago

Are you serious? Maybe trying to flex your vocabularic muscles? FAIL.

"There are other measures of the success of an organization besides profit." You seem to have accidentally replaced "corporation" with "organization".

For amusement's sake, what are these other measures of corporate success?

[-] 1 points by quercus (93) 2 years ago

the hierarchy of worse-bad-good-better-best-great GREED is the problem. corporations, cooperatives, collectives, the question is what, how is DEMOCRACY realized, defined as actuality, by the people. it is an active question.

[-] 1 points by icfmike (173) 2 years ago

how about longevity ?

[-] 2 points by Mark01 (82) 2 years ago

u people don't understand that this pressure is just to force them pay better wages and health care. we keep applying pressure until they reform and then we'll stop.

[-] 1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Yeah, right. That is what our electricity company keeps telling us. This raise is just temporary to force you to pay us more. When you reform and pay us more, we will stop pestering you until we can get the commission to allow us to raise our rates again.

[-] 6 points by Mark01 (82) 2 years ago

what do you think people are doing this for fun? people are tired of suffering. people are standing up for their livelihood.

[-] -1 points by ComunistUSA (58) 2 years ago

they do it for attention, which i think is fun for them.

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

You're an idiot troll. Go to where the trolls live. You add absolutely nothing to any post.

[-] 1 points by Mark01 (82) 2 years ago

are u a retard? have u been under a rock and dont see the struggle in their own lives trying to pay the rent.

[-] 0 points by ComunistUSA (58) 2 years ago

Standing up for your livelihood would be going out and getting a job, not try to impede others from doing there's. And thank you for discriminating against handicapped people by using that term as an insult. If you ever want this movement to succeed, YOU personally should stay very far away from it.

[-] 1 points by Mark01 (82) 2 years ago

Well maybe its the system that needs to change and not only our own situations.

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

I have no problem with people who are tired of suffering and standing up for their livelihood. I am right in there with them.

What I do have a problem with is someone applying pressure and then assuring us, that at some point, "then we'll stop". I have just not seen this as a pattern that we as a society follow. Sorry for being so pessimistic = but history is history.

[-] 2 points by Mark01 (82) 2 years ago

then u dont have to participate

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Are you inviting me to go away? I can take a hint? Won't tell you what I am going to do with it.

[-] 4 points by SeaChange (134) 2 years ago

I don't think Mark01 was saying you should go away. He was saying you don't have to participate in the action if you don't agree with it (this is always true with OWS).

I hope you stick around because you're doing OWS (or at least those of us that read the comments) a valuable service by forcing us to articulate and hone our arguments. You can't have a dialogue if everyone always agrees. This is an important conversation that we're having and it's vital that there are people from across the political spectrum participating.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Thank you Sea Change - that is exactly why I am on here. There needs to be a lot of articulation and refinement done.

I appreciate your post and the truth I see in it. Just had to know exactly where Mark01 was coming from. Others are more blunt sometimes. Look at the post below this one and you will see what you have to deal with at one time or another.

[+] -4 points by OWSRIdiots (16) 2 years ago

Your mama pays the bill and not your lazy azz

[-] 4 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

My mama passed on over 10 years ago. Have a little respect will ya??

Yo mama jokes are not really funny at this point in my life.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

You trolls seem to be focused on your moms.

[-] 1 points by TH3W01F (180) from Ottawa, ON 2 years ago

Try refurbished ones. Recycle your old tech using open-sourced operating systems.

[-] -2 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

With a personal income tax rate of 81.6%, they certainly have good reason to be angry. Most are too scared to protest against the authoritarian Chinese government, so protesting against corporate employers and demanding livable wages is the alternative. Although they are shockingly underpaid by US standards, you also have to take into account their cost of living if you want to compare it to US - something OWS will rarely do as it does not fit the agenda as well. While I do agree their living wage (read: take-home pay) is shocking, it's not solely the opportunistic international corporations that are to blame. This is an argument I've been trying to make all along - in China, as in the US, the root of the problem is the governments & politicians that enable this behavior. If legislation were in place that made this kind of exploitation illegal - or at least limited it (since capitalism is based on exploitation), then we might all be a little happier. No point blaming Wall St or big Corporates - they will not change as long as they are keeping within the law. Who makes the law - the government. THAT is where you should focus your efforts, not on Wall St or subway users or people who can not effect change. It is so simple, yet OWS members seem so blind to what is right in front of them. Very frustrating.

[-] 3 points by nikilister (109) 2 years ago

But who really runs the US Government?

Corporations.

Who runs Corporations?

Executives.

Who pays Executives?

Corporations.

How do Corporations pay Executives?

High Profits.

How do they profit?

Consumption.

What allows high profit Consumption?

Big Corporate Investment Capability (Banking), Accessible Free Market, Lower or No Taxes, Inflation, High Demand, Monopoly, Excessive Control by Intellectual Property Ownership, Cheap Labor, Cheap QC, Cheaply managed Resources, Cheap Commodities, Cheap Material, Easy Processing, Huge Branding & Advertising Capability (Marketing), Big Market Share and Strategy, Cheap Research & Development Technology (Universities & In house R&D).

How can you regulate all these parameters?

You need to establish a Global Monitoring of these parameters which can be divided into two main categories:

1.Corporate Activities

2.Corporate Environments

Then you need laws to regulate these two Categories through powerful Global Constraints.

Unfortunately we have seen how UN as an international body is a tool for Big Corporations so following that example is a waste of time.

Federal agencies lack the expertise and resources for this type of operation since they are already to a large extent restricted by laws. Their involvement could also mean more Bureaucracy, more Corruption, More Government.

The only option is to:

First Change the way Corporations develop their "skills" for "profitization" in Their Corporate Activities. It is similar to making a diet plan for an obese person. You have to create substitute for each and every way they normally manage their Corporate Activities.

Second Force the Governments Globally to create mechanisms to control Corporate Environments where Corporations cannot go back to their old habits or create new ones that function the same.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

You're jumping to a final stage with no thought or planning for how to get there. You have to start with getting some influence in government. Find good people to run for congress, get people out to vote. Politicians don't care about the demonstrations, they care about the votes and getting reelected. Start with a foundation, not some final plan you need a Harry Potter to conjure into existence for you.

[-] 1 points by nikilister (109) 2 years ago

Everyone's either busy or lack resources for following their congressmen everywhere they go, everyone they meet, every appointment they make or everything they buy or endorse.

If there are US citizen volunteers who would pressure their congressmen into making their work information readily available when it comes to their relation with corporations and financial institutions then there is a good chance this pressure will cause them to be transparent.

We are not living in the 60's, 70's. We know that they need technology to communicate. They need electronic transfer of funds, and They need staff to do their work.

The question is could these be referred to as enumerations described in 9th Amendment :

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

In that case this is good start. It is already in the constitution.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

I'm not saying harass congressmen, develop an organization with stated goals, pick banking regulation, campaign finance reform, anything, just state your goals and collect a large number of people to march on various occasions. Organizations that can produce a voting block get noticed and listened to.

[-] 1 points by nikilister (109) 2 years ago

But I believe It most definitely is more involved than what we might think. I mean, In one hand,the process of hiding everything from public has become so streamlined and secretively functional for both parties (republican and democrat) it might not even be remotely close to what we think as how they operate or maintain relations (politicians and corporations/financial institutions). And on the other you have International links. So it isn't really a US issue. It is International.

The whole Constitution from this perspective is a big joke.

In other words, if we look at it as a US problem, not only the whole two party system has to go through an overhaul the Constitution needs drastic change. Everything must be re-examined in the way parties operate and politicians belonging to those parties are virtually products of a system that allows them to function the way they do.

In the end corruption is not something that can be controlled with demonstrations . Demonstrations are like warnings.

The real action should begin when you actually defy criminals. Catching the rats is a waste of time. It is better to disrupt or destroy their systems.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

I can't comment on the extent of corruption in the US or the world. As I said earlier though, in a country where 85% of the population are working and reasonably content, you're not going to get revolution. It's my opinion that change at first will have to employ the system and be from within.

[-] 1 points by nikilister (109) 2 years ago

85% working dishonorably might look good from a distance but up close it becomes a form of disease. I guess that's what you're referring to a "cure" of some sort.

Well if the 85% see themselves fit enough to resist the disease then their case is stronger at this point.

The question is: are we realistically talking about the 85% as healthy individuals (by health I mean their attitude towards being) or are we talking about the way the 85% live, as life is a chance or possibility for all, but for some reason has turned into a percentage variety with a blunt divider of socio-economical trajectory.

Those are two completely different philosophies.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

Their contentment has to do with them, their self image, not some external measure. Doesn't matter if we see the majority as working honorably or not. If you're looking for a revolution rather then a slower change through the system, you need to convince more of the country that there is a problem and more importantly that this revolution is truly the solution.

[-] 1 points by nikilister (109) 2 years ago

Yes but as long as it is indeed Constitutional. Just because the system does not punish you for being a part of the system does not mean the system works.

This is the grand illusion. It has always been that way in history.

It has nothing to do with speed. The problem of corruption is as ancient as time itself. Even if you fix the system its not like you can put it in the "freezer" and relax. Systems corrupt themselves as a result of deviations which at first seem unnoticed then gradually shift and forget their idiomatic foundation because they are no longer applicable under the new circumstances or at least that's the way they ("85%") view the matter.

btw the idea of a revolution is also something debatable as far as what revolution means to different people. Some might think a cutting edge technology is revolutionary when it appears for the first time in any segment of any industry. Still others see revolutionary ideas as little steps towards a larger goal.

What really matters though at this point is what do we recognize as a readable blueprint and how many of them are there out there and who is able to pick and read it or make sense of it and once read and understood how is it justified and put in use.

We have seen many revolutions in history of mankind including the American revolution, but can we say that the blue print used at that moment is still regarded as a valuable source for stepping into the future? probably not. Because if it was that valuable others would have copied it including China!lol.

So this State Dept frenzy of getting high on Democracy as an American brand like it is Coca-Cola in a bottle is just a load of old BS.

Leave branding and marketing out of American politics and you'll find nothing but tax payer's money going into these weird projects like Credit and loan failures! how absurd!!

So what the 85% is saying is bail me out too please-slowly-until "We"get out of this one hiccup and it'll be ok again.

[-] 1 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

So how do you propose forcing Corporations to change the way they develop their "skills" for "profitization" in Their Corporate Activities? Self-regulation? LMAO - not going to happen. Your very last statement led you back to where you started and what I stated; this is only going to be changed by acts of legislation.

[-] 3 points by xxcONScIENcExx (172) 2 years ago

Implement legislation that prosecutes all forms of political corruption from corporations and ALL special interests as treason against our democracy. This includes violations of campaign donation practices as well as general legislation lobbying as set forth in the new law. When I say prosecute, I literally mean prosecute... both the briber and the receiver. However, it will be hard to pass this in our current system, Can you imagine the lobbying list for this legislation? So sad.... Let's start at the beginning. Dismantle Political Corruption Platforms! - and this is why exposing the corrupters as well as voting the corrupted out is equally important

[-] 1 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

You had me until the very end; I have seen very little focus against politicians from OWS, but I like the way you're thinking. I am totally for prosecuting to the full extent of the law and beyond. What amazes me is the occasions where a politician has been caught red-handed, and then gets re-elected by his or her constituency. I just don't get it. How stupid can people be?

[-] 2 points by xxcONScIENcExx (172) 2 years ago

That;s a loaded question. I would always resort to referring to those people (i was one once) as un / under / and mis-informed. People don't know what they don't know. That's another beautiful part of this movement. I have learned so much over the past couple months.

[-] 1 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Well there's a positive (learning) :)

As far as the un / under / and mis-informed go, I believe mass media has a lot to do with that - not always, and not 100%, but certainly it is significant. I'm not pointing the finger at either liberal or conservative media btw - I believe they are both as bad as each other.

[-] 2 points by nikilister (109) 2 years ago

It is not legislation. It is what makes legislation work.

US Government, the way it is run today, cannot act on both Categories described above; That's why in this case the separation of powers as a given is not effective but as condition might be.

US government might need another branch. Preferably not another Department function under a current branch because of the Global Scale of the matter .

While keeping government small this new branch has the flexibility to cooperate globally with other governments on Financial Crisis.

Americans have been fooled into putting their tax dollars in the pockets of Dept of National Security which in reality does nothing but scare Americans into Debt , Wars abroad, and Loss of Privacy. At the same time, they have never seen the need for creating a Dept of Financial Security to monitor Corporations.

Legislation does not work when there is no Branch or Dept that is dedicated to such action.

Therefore Either American Government is not run By American people (which seems to be the case since the Financial Crisis is much larger in scale of importance compared to 9/11) or American people are so Dumb and powerless that they cannot force their government to act responsibly and in accordance to what is the real necessity for US and its people.

[-] 0 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Oh man - the last thing we need is more government. Sorry - another toothless committee will just be appeasement to the frustrated by those in power.. imho of course. Asking government to regulate itself is as pointless as asking corporate America to regulate itself. We have enough problems as it is. An independent group of auditors and forensic accountants may reveal more corruption, but the problem is also what is currently legal - a committee can't do much about that, other than make recommendations to change current law.. which is why I keep saying to focus on the politicians and DC, not Wall St. It keeps coming back to the same thing.

Thanks for discussing it though, and not just calling me a troll for not agreeing.

[-] 1 points by nikilister (109) 2 years ago

That's why I said a Branch, not a Dept. and not an agency. The smaller you get the less effective.

Think Big. lol!!

[-] 1 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

omg a branch no less! Who is going to pay for that lol!

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[-] 0 points by mja (14) 2 years ago

one simple question, who or what influences politics & government?

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[-] -1 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Again, throwing tantrums at Wall St will not change anything, particularly in the way they behave - plus you take the heat off politicians and they will use that to their advantage. Wall St does not need your approval. Politicians do - they need your votes to stay in power. Is this connecting any dots for you yet? It's amazing so few in OWS can see this.

[-] -3 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Going to China are you?? I really don't think that the workers over there need your advise - they seem to be getting the point and are taking control of their own future. Just LEAVE them alone - we have made a big enough mess right here at home and it not an export that we exactly need.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

So, standing in solidarity with others is telling them what to do?

[-] 7 points by occupyworld (40) 2 years ago

Having been a lowly worker in Corporate America for 40 years, I can say it use to be a lot different then what it is now. Of course corps made a profit, but not an insane profit. A lot of their profits were put back into the company to improve it and hire more people. Employees were also compensated when Corps did well, more benefits were offered, more vacation time, and good raises. I can remember 8-10% raises annually for almost all non-exempt workers. There was an unwritten code between employer and employee that benefited both. It use to be if the Corp did well, employees benefitted, there was also a lot more job security. Yes CEO's made good money, but nothing like it is now. We are destroying ourselves now and I'd love to move out of this country because I don't recognize it anymore. I have a lot fear for our teenage son and all young people because your lives are going to be so much different then what ours was. It sickens me and brings me to tears what's happened. OWS, do not give up, never quit. Keep building this movement, the citizenry of this country has been sleeping far too long, wake them up!

[-] 2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I totally agree with you and could have easily have wrote what you just did. I never would have thought that this generation would be the one to wake us all up. I' very proud of them.

[-] 1 points by occupyworld (40) 2 years ago

I'm very proud of them also, but they must not give up. This will be a long process and eventually they'll have to enter the political arena/circus to affect change. I've been waiting 3 years for people to start something, especially our young people. OWS has struck the cental nerve of our power system, that's why they're being attacked so brutally at times and it's a coordinated Federal effort and very transparent. Those in power not willing to help affect change are concerned, that's why OWS is the butt of jokes and nasty comments. Fear not!

[-] 1 points by cyberzyme (3) 2 years ago

Yes far to long have people of our and past generations played the part of "See No Evil, Hear No Evil and Speak No Evil" Like the three monkeys we ignored the problem hoping it would go away but all we did was let it get out of control. I support this generation making the change and have donated to the cause. Shake the building till the foundations crumble! and wake the World!

[-] 1 points by warbstar (210) 2 years ago

I investigated moving out of Amerika to follow my job. What I found were a long list of laws designed to keep the 99% prisoners within our own country.

[-] 1 points by occupyworld (40) 2 years ago

Can you elaborate a bit on what laws prevent us from moving to another country? I know of some requirements that have to met in a few other countries, I know it's not easy. I looked into Australia a few years back online and according to their requirements, we qualified to enter the country. We didn't pursue it though. There are thousands who have left, a lot of them thanks to their jobs, so I'd be interested in what you found.

[-] 1 points by warbstar (210) 2 years ago

Generally, I found that unless you were transferring knowledge out of Amerika you did not qualify in the Asian countries. Next, I ran into time limits for the Visa's. For example, Taiwan had a two year limit and you had to prove that you could export knowledge out of Amerika.

In the case of my brother, he is considering moving to China. He says the quality of life is much better there than in Amerika. Still there is the time limit on the visa, and they demand a transfer of knowledge out of Amerika.

[-] 0 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

like what?

[-] 0 points by ComunistUSA (58) 2 years ago

When cant spell America it makes me skeptical of how thorough your investigation was.

[-] 2 points by warbstar (210) 2 years ago

Right. Like your problem with making a complete sentance that includes the word "you" and ending the sentance with a "was."

[-] 0 points by ComunistUSA (58) 2 years ago

Just keep us updated on your quest to "escape" AmeriKa.

[-] 1 points by occupyworld (40) 2 years ago

I think he/she purposely spelled it with a K, I've seen that a lot.

[-] 0 points by ComunistUSA (58) 2 years ago

never the less, still skeptical...lol

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

You do nothing but ridicule on here. That makes me VERY skeptical of you.

[-] 0 points by ComunistUSA (58) 2 years ago

I chime in here from time to time to let these protesters know they DO NOT represent the popular view. Call me a troll if you want, but I have a few choice names for all of the people sitting around complaining how things aren't fair and spreading their Communist propaganda. Anyway... As it has become clear to me and the rest of the world that this whole thing is a joke, and I'm sure you guys will have enough people making that obviously clear to you in the near future. I will resign my duties here and continue on being a productive, profiting member of society.

Enjoy your fleeting existence OWS. You provided some good entertainment over the last few months.

[-] 0 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

did you ever think to advance your skills . Why are you focused on the disparities between people? what are your qualifications?

[-] 2 points by occupyworld (40) 2 years ago

I don't know what you're talking about. Advancing my skills? I have no probelm with my skills and either do employers. I've been gainfully employed my entire life. What dispariities are you suggesting I'm focusing on? I don't believe I mentioned any.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

so what are you so upset about that drives you to support this collective temper tantrum?

[-] 1 points by occupyworld (40) 2 years ago

The fact you refer to OWS as a collective temper tamtrum leaves me resistant to answer your question, but I'll name a few things, though the list is long. Personally, I was laid off a year ago and have not found work yet, my skills are fine. Our teenage son (HS graduate) just found a retail job after 2 years of looking for work. He wants to continue his education, but wants to have some work experience under his belt and some money. He refuses to to take out loans and mortgage his brain. When he goes back to school we will help him financially. People I worked with who got laid off and have found jobs are making a lot less with their new jobs and some don't even have health benefits offered to them. My husband's retirement fund has lost $15,000 since 2008, though the company is doing very well, thanks a lot Wall Street!! Our manufacturing base has been decimated thanks to other countries cheap labor and goods. Those were all good middle class supporting jobs. The unions have shrunk due to union busting, so wages have gone down, benefits reduced, etc. Banking deruglation has destroyed our economy, except for the 1% who've done better then ever. Trade laws have ruined our economy. The Supreme Court is bought and paid for along with our politicians. Our government has been for sale for far too long, the money needs to get out of our politics, including international money. Corporations are NOT people. The Federal Reserve (which shouldn't exist) has loan out TRILLIONS of dollars to foreign banks behind our backs. The biggest personal property scam ever has destroyed the housing market and left many homeless, and not all because people bought more then they could afford. I know people who are walking away from their homes because they're so underwater it's not worth it, they're regular middle class homes. Even our home is worth $60,000 less then what we paid 4-1/2 years ago, we're not underwater and it's a regular home, nothing fancy. I could go on.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

go lobby your congressman

[-] 1 points by occupyworld (40) 2 years ago

HA! I don't have enough money to lobby my congressman and he's one of the biggest teabagger jerks in Congress, deadbeat dad Joe Walsh. Thankfully they've redistrict here and he won't be our Congressman, we have a couple of great progressive candidates in my district for the next election.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

then organize someone to run against him. or are you just lazy?

[-] 1 points by occupyworld (40) 2 years ago

Read what I said, I don't have to, he's been redistricted out of my district, YAHOOO! I'll be helping getting one of the progressive candidates that are running in my district elected. Are you lazy?

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

good luck to you.

[-] 7 points by nate (48) 2 years ago

Voices for the status quo keep repeating the same tired questions about Occupy, such as, "What are their demands?" and "Why are they protesting?" So far Occupy protesters have resisted being integrated into the corrupted elitist system, by ignoring these voices and by actively fostering a non-hierarchical and decentralized approach to community. Not only that, Occupy is now a global movement. So, while no government is capable of addressing the amoralism of multinational corporations for example, there is real hope that we the people can rise up and take action to change things. It is because of this hope, among other possibilities, that the Occupy protests need to continue. Throughout history, the 1% has mainly only served itself. But in our global world, hierarchy and the fragmented systems it spawns is becoming increasingly irrelevant. We are discovering that by our collective power we can turn the heartless tides that put profit over people and invert means and ends. In our global world societies can be healed through the strengths and capabilities of all of us, when we the people stand up, take notice and take action like we are doing now. Power to...we the people.

[-] 7 points by pleasewakeup (17) 2 years ago

This gets to the very heart of the crisis. China has developed Capitalism WITHOUT Democracy, and it is more effective. (see Zizek) The American Working Class (i.e., 99%) cannot and should not have to compete with Chinese workers stripped of democratic and civil rights. But, we are being forced to.

Americans MUST support Chinese workers in overthrowing their Authoritarian regime OR we will see our rights eroded faster and further here at home. There is no alternative.

This means aggressive support for Chinese workers' rights - financial, intelligence, and military.

[-] 4 points by SeaChange (134) 2 years ago

Well said. Michelle Bachman inadvertently acknowledged this recently at a debate when she said our economic problems could be solved if we became more like China (i.e. no workers rights, no social safety net).

At some point you have to choose between capitalism and democracy. Capitalism left unchecked merges into a form of fascism. Drastic wealth imbalances require a police state to preserve (dis)order. Consider that both Hitler and Mussolini had the industry backing of a large portion (though not all) of their respective 1%s when they took power. It was precisely this backing of industry leaders and financial elites that gave them their authority, and the reason for this was to preserve the capitalist order.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

I agree with much of what you say. However, capitalism vs. democracy is a false choice. It is true that unchecked capitalism is tyranny. But so is unchecked democracy."Pure" democracy tramples on the rights of the minority in favor of the tyranny of the majority. That's why it is amended by the Bill of Rights as well as by an un-democratically appointed judiciary un-beholding to a majority constituency.

What is needed is a return to capitalism in line with democracy. What I mean by that is capitalism amended, supplemented, regulated. It means that some, not all, capital is redistributed for the common good from the top to the bottom. It means shared sacrifice, not only sacrifice by those at the bottom, and shared opportunity, not just opportunity for those at the top. It means substantially reducing the gap between the richer and poorer, and making sure everyone is guaranteed basic things like health care, housing, food, a real education, and clothing.

Human being's differences require a mixed economy. Since we are not absolute, no one absolute system can accommodate everyone's needs.

Just as our democracy is relative, not absolute, just as we are relative beings, not absolute ones, and have relative needs, so capitalism needs to be relative as well.

I understand that as a young, fledging movement, working to gain intensity and courage to go on from day to day, declaring absolute solutions is tempting. It is useful for morale. But trying to implement absolute solutions of any kind - regardless of the noblest motivations - including a blanket rejection of capitalism, invariably leads to tyranny. And tyranny is what OWS is fighting so hard to end.

We need money driven out of politics. We need an end to corruption and cronyism. We need equity and fairness in income distribution. What we don't need is absolutism. The issue is not the boss getting rich, but the workers getting poor, not the boss gaining power but the workers gaining impotence. If everyone has a sound boat, it's doesn't matter if the CEO's has a yacht; everyone would still be afloat.

[-] 1 points by BOA (10) 2 years ago

Do you know the difference between a political system and an economic system? :O

[-] 1 points by pleasewakeup (17) 2 years ago

Your boat metaphor makes you sound like a moron btw, you should not use it anymore.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Sorry you feel that way. I happen to think it's apt, given the oft-used saying "rising tide lifts all boats", that a sound boat's security is what we all seek, that everyone having enough is the issue, not the anger about relative luxury. and the fact that I was playing with the username of the poster I was responding to (Seachange). Frankly, I thought it was kind of clever.

So, again, sorry that you didn't like it. But I couldn't care less about your literary criticism, .I am more concerned about ideas and actions that help restore democracy.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

It's a typical response from a troll.... and I like your answer!!

[-] 0 points by jaimes (86) 2 years ago

the garden gnome speaks.

[-] 0 points by ComunistUSA (58) 2 years ago

This person needs to be the head of this "movement" NOW!!!!!!!!!

[-] 1 points by icfmike (173) 2 years ago

Michelle Bachman also wished Elvis 'Happy Birthday' on the anniversary of his death...

[-] 1 points by SeaChange (134) 2 years ago

@ pleasewakeup: That being said, the idea of supporting Chinese worker's rights via the US military seems extremely problematic, to say the least. Still I agree with your basic premise.

[-] 1 points by pleasewakeup (17) 2 years ago

seachange, "extremely problematic" is an understatement, but it's either now (while we still have some economic and military bargaining power) OR later (when we are guaranteed to lose) ..... THERE IS NO WAY OUT OF AN ARMED CONFLICT WITH CHINA unless you want to surrender.... Think about it and you will realize you are deluding yourself because it seems so awful. it is awful. remember who is to blame: GS and JPM.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

I would add to that Chinese authorities act largely to save face. Loss of face means loss of authority and legitimacy. While we here would certainly welcome that, in practical terms it means that outside pressure leads to even more repression over there. The threat of loss of face that the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests created, not the specific demands of the protesters, is what led to the brutal crackdown there. I think treading lightly today in support of the strikers would be wise.

Declaring solidarity with the Chinese workers is a positive thing to do, but may inadvertently place those workers in greater danger. It might be far more effective - and safe - for those workers' sake for us to press the State Department to open back-channel talks about the issue. How OWS could do that, I don't know. But other human rights issues were resolved in the past only through private negotiations out of the glare of public scrutiny.

[-] 1 points by pleasewakeup (17) 2 years ago

your ideas cannot work in the current system. regulators (sec, doj, etc) can never regulate against billions that GS and JPM have made thru democratic processes. it just doesn't work in the long run. you reakky need to read Zizek. in fact, all the high-minded dreamers of OWS should take a crash course on Zizek.

you talk of putting the Chinese workers in "greater danger" - you are not understanding the situation, it's over. it's done. they are already in maximum danger. we need strong radical action.... not bs backdoor whatever you think Hillary does other than not support Democratic uprisings like in Egypt.....

you all really need to wake up to the massive crisis. read Zizek and while you're at it read Currency Wars.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

I am very well aware of the problems in the current system. That's why I support OWS. Changing that system, improving it, and bringing back democracy and equity will take a long time and a lot of often heartbreaking effort. OWS is at the very beginning of a struggle that could easily be a decade in the making. That does not preclude significant early successes, but the deep structural changes that genuinely separate money from politics.

What "strong radical action" do you propose, SPECIFICALLY, to help these particular Chinese workers? Especially, what proposal do you have based on anything WHOSE EFFECTIVENESS HAS BEEN SHOWN as a working strategy?

You claim that the Chinese strikers are already in maximum danger. I agree that the danger to them is real and extreme. But one must understand that public pressure from outside has the potential to put them into even GREATER danger. It is something the Chinese authorities have reacted to negatively, and extremely harshly, time and time again. If the goal is to get your rocks off, by all means make a big public show. If it is to help those particular workers, maybe, just maybe, another approach is warranted. The Chinese workers have stuck a stick into a hornet's nest. That choice was theirs, and was extremely courageous. Our public demonstrations might only serve to make the hornets even angrier. And we were not invited to do that. Our doing so without invitation is arrogant and over-reaching. Does it really serve those workers' interests, or does it merely serve our own fantasy of ourselves as saviors? (Zizek, by the way, has a lot to say about fantasies.)

At any rate, the "show of solidarity" happened 2 days ago. Whatever mistakes were made, if any, are done. Whatever repercussions from OWS action on Chinese workers has already be set in motion. My concern is now moot. But you posted your response 7 hours ago, long after the event was over. That shows me that you are possibly less concerned with the practical than with theory. I may be wrong, but it could be something to consider.

Zizek himself warned OWS a short time ago about falling in love with itself. He reminded everyone the that real, and much harder work was ahead, and would take a long, sustained effort. Frankly he sounds a lot more level headed than many in the movement, which, I remind you, I support.

[-] 1 points by pleasewakeup (17) 2 years ago

we need to overthrow the Chinese authoritarian government, otherwise we will end up the same. thx for telling me about bachman's stmt, I hadn't heard that...

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[-] 5 points by bcv166 (18) from Edisto Beach, SC 2 years ago

When I was a kid and someone took unfair advantage, or the like, we would cry out "no fair!, no fair!". Most kids even know what is fair, and what is not. Now its time for all of us grownups to remember what we instinctively knew then . . . and act.

[-] 5 points by mserfas (652) from Ashland, PA 2 years ago

I think even the Republicans should be happy to hear about a strike in China. To be fair to them, the idea of "engaging" there, driving up wages and promoting development, and thereby stimulating demands for less tangible goals such as freedom, was popular with them to some extent back in the Reagan era. Inflation in China is apparently still around 7 percent ( http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/business/global/inflation-in-china-eases-but-food-prices-up-sharply.html?_r=1 ) and the yuan is appreciating at something like 5-6 percent a year ( http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/01/chinas_currency http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=CNYUSD=X#chart2:symbol=cnyusd=x;range=5y;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined ) - this means that "cheap Chinese goods" should become more expensive in the U.S. at roughly 12 percent a year. So "re-onshoring" is becoming a definite trend ( http://www.ebnonline.com/author.asp?section_id=1071&doc_id=203869 ). Regardless of ideological perspective, we should understand, therefore, that these Chinese workers are directly making it easier for Americans to find work and make a profit in business. The long term goal - one would hope, for all parties - is a world where people in China and the U.S. are all prosperous and all have decent economic opportunities.

[-] 2 points by OWS99 (12) 2 years ago

You are absolutely right. Cheap Chinese labor won't be available forever the way the standard of living is increasing over there. It will be interesting to see what American corporatism's answer to this reality will be. Lobby D.C. to lower U.S. minimum wage to $3/hr? Annihilate the Chinese nation to force them into destitution, effectively forcing them to start from scratch? Any other suggestions, lol?

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Unfortunately, the corporations have already begun to answer. They are building factories in places like Vietnam that have even cheaper labor than China.

Greed is bottomless. And so much of the world lives in abject poverty that the cheap labor resources available to the greedy are nearly endless.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Exactly. They also are building in Indonesia and other places near there. Africa will be next.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

And at 7% per year and now the strickes in China we just might get there faster than you can even imagine.

In the meantime, are you putting your money and our mouth into getting ready to reopen a few of these shuttered manufacturing plants here in America.

I for one, an going to be ready.

[-] 3 points by rcarmstrong (115) from Cadyville, NY 2 years ago

In all of our fervor to champion equal opportunity and better wages for workers worldwide, do we forget about the environmental impact of all of that "productivity?' Isn't it possible to find new ways to employ people as we rise to the challenges of climate change, and instead of opening up the shuttered plants, develop a sustainable and environmentally responsible economic model that doesn't depend on growth and profits? We're looking for a paradigm shift that will lead us into a better future, not just a slightly different brand than the one we have now.

[-] 2 points by icfmike (173) 2 years ago

how about not depending on foreign oil or any oil for that matter. We can transition to an electric transport system by powering hybrid electrics on the go. Electricity can be produced using the flow of water, no dams.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

This is a good post rcarmstrong, but we are caught between what we think we should be doing and getting the rest of the world on board.

While we are trying to shut down our coal fired power plants, China is adding that an unbelievable rate. While we are trying to shut down our pollution steel mills, Mexico is simply doing part of production from those mills just a few miles south of our border. Visit El Paso and look at the warehouse full of cast iron and aluminum cast items made just a few miles south because we decided not to do them a few miles north. We get the same air quality in the USA either way.

There sure are lot of things to be considered and obstacles to overcome as we work toward any type of sustainable and environmentally responsible economic model while protecting our economy and leading it into a better future.

[-] 1 points by rcarmstrong (115) from Cadyville, NY 2 years ago

Point well taken, ronjj. Are the industries abroad you mentioned owned by US corporations? Probably. Maybe a start is to have these companies pay taxes and surcharges on the carbon they emit in production. I think you'd like to read a publication put out by The Institute of Policy Studies, which recommends many good ways to reclaim tax revenue that could be put to use in building green industry. Here's the link to the study, "America Is Not Broke."

http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/america_is_not_broke#.Tsroz_Sz9fg.facebook

[-] 4 points by Socrates469bc (608) from New York, NY 2 years ago

From Reuters:

Violence, pepper spray mars US Black Friday shopping

  • Rush for bargains turns violent, man shot
  • Woman uses pepper spray in swarm for Xboxes

[ Did we hear a condemnation from Bloomberg and other Mayors about Public Safety. These "shoppers" only camped out for 1 night and already people are were being shot. Many more occupiers sacrificed their comforts for the common good, for a longer time and the rate of violence was much lower.

Did Bloomberg get a court order to ban Black Friday henceforth?]

By Barbara Goldberg NEW YORK, Nov 25 (Reuters) - A shopper pepper-sprayed other bargain hunters...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/25/usa-retail-violence-idUSN1E7AO0L820111125

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

And yet people try to say the Occupies are violent!!

[-] 4 points by Joe4more (165) from Cranston, RI 2 years ago

We will never get the manufacturing jobs back in this country which were shipped abroad. We need new products to manufacture right here in USA, while at the same time the hunger for solutions to our energy needs, and alternatives for oil, are ignored by our law makers. We act like the robots shopping on "black Friday"! When are we going to wake up? Without the 99% purchasing goods from the 1%, the 1% wouldn't exist. I may not be a genius, but it would seem the 99% could be a powerful group if unified. Given that ninety percent of individuals in this country earn less than $60k/year (Dept of Labor, 2009) it's no wonder the 1% want this movement stopped dead in its tracts.

[-] 2 points by Mark01 (82) 2 years ago

so true

[-] 4 points by SuzannahTroy (31) 2 years ago

Happy Thanksgiving. As you know I am demanding Bloomberg resign and the media protects him so thanks and gratitude to World Journal a Chinese Journal covering our protest against Bloomberg and his mini-me Christine Quinn.http://www.worldjournal.com/view/full_news/16151462/article-

The link gives you some dark humorous news reminders from blog on Bloomberg, the fact we need a hospital in W. Village (not to mention Queens and Staten Islands) http://suzannahbtroy.blogspot.com/2011/11/suzannah-b-troy-post-thanksgiving-round.html Check out the “news” not reported. Thanks OWS and supporters. Thanks and gratitude.

[-] 4 points by Daniel1984 (44) from Wiley Ford, WV 2 years ago

I have nothing but respect for the Chinese workers. This could cause some serious heads to roll. If these workers can take away the 1%'s slave labor that would be a huge victory for workers everywhere. Keep it up China!

[-] 3 points by lisagroovacious (4) from Cedar City, UT 2 years ago

The reason to spend your money locally is that most locally owned and operated businesses don't gamble on Wall Street, they reinvest their money into their communities where they live and work, where their children go to school etc. Their profits go to strengthening their business so they can hire more, stock more goods etc. Independent businesses enjoy the freedom to make their own choice, no one bails them out when they make the wrong one - this is how free market is supposed to operate.

[-] 1 points by JosephCouture (45) 2 years ago

Black Friday was truly an educational experience for all of us. If you thought it was just the 1 percent who had their values messed up, then the truth was like a shot of pepper spray to the face.

The fact is the poor suffer from the same condition the rich do- the human condition. Read how one writer thinks that until we face the fact that the flaw is in our nature and not simply our political system, we will never change anything.

See "The Seekers Who Will Not See" here at www.josephcouture.com

[-] 1 points by jeffyarboro1 (2) 2 years ago

Absolutely! Their struggles are our own and we must stand in soldarity with brothers and sistters globally. No more US paramilitary equipment to the middle east! (inclusive of Bahrian, Tunesia, Egypt, Syria-uh hello?, UAE, SA and others) Lawyers, can you help identify litigation that would hold these groups accountable? Is it the ATCA?

[-] 3 points by roko99 (3) 2 years ago

We should occupy Combined Systems, Inc. (CSI) 388 Kinsman Rd. Jamestown, PA 16134 Tel: 724-932-2177. the company that sells tear gas to the Tunisian, Egyptian and Israeli, militaries. poisoning blamed on the tear gas has killed many. No one from the military has been held accountable for the deaths and injuries caused by shooting tear gas canisters at protesters.

[-] 3 points by Bearwalkerpdx (3) 2 years ago

This is my first time on this site. Hi five to all OWS supporters. Keep agitating, keep occyping, keep telling the truth. Richard, proud member and occupant of Occupy Portland (Oregon)

[-] 3 points by shooz (26681) 2 years ago

Where's that Vlad fellow, who said the Chinese were so very happy working for peanuts?

Strength and unions to the Chinese!!!!!!

[-] 2 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 2 years ago

He must be back under his rock.

[-] 1 points by shooz (26681) 2 years ago

Good place for him.

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 2 years ago

Agreed.

[-] 3 points by SeaChange (134) 2 years ago

It's good to hear someone talk about solidarity with Chinese workers, rather than the typical China-bashing one hears on both sides of the political aisle. They have a 1% system too, just like us (but much worse since we are the beneficiaries of their 1% system). We should continue to make a distinction between the Chinese government/industry and the Chinese people and workers. Ultimately this movement has to be a global movement of the 99% around the world in order for it to work.

[-] 3 points by Sovjet (19) from Mačvanski Prnjavor, Central Serbia 2 years ago

If we finally get over monetary systems and money, we could experience massive evolution of humanism..People could create literary anything they would ever imagine, without any financial barriers..The only thing we would need are the resources which are plenty..NO more national borders! No more crime! NO more wars! NO more pollution! MY FELLOW HUMANS, EVOLVE!

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

I agree with you 100% a million times over!!!! Whenever I mention this to people, most of them get a very confused look on their faces. They can't imagine or comprehend anything beyond a system that revolves around and worships money. And I've said the same thing over and over about national borders.... how stupid and outdated they are. These things are so sad to me.

It's time people evolve beyond these things.

[-] 2 points by Sovjet (19) from Mačvanski Prnjavor, Central Serbia 2 years ago

Imagine if the whole industrial sector collapses...big business is gone, no cars, ships, aircraft.. no pollution , the government is no more..Now WE form a direct democracy with automatized restructured, ecological, collectively owned industry and economy without monetary system. We can build solar plants and windmills, energy fueled cars..Imagine if people who want to research anything can do it without, asking someone for money..If you work you will have access to everything.. WE produce, WE create, WE use, WE share, WE help.

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

I think about these things all the time. Most people think no one would be motivated to do anything if money didn't exist. I think differently. Those who are passionate about something will do it no matter what. That's why people have hobbies and play sports and travel, etc..... they're doing things they love to do just for the sheer joy of doing them because of that passion.

[-] 1 points by Sovjet (19) from Mačvanski Prnjavor, Central Serbia 2 years ago

I also agree with you..But we would still have some sort of "people's bureaucracy", that will control the armed forces, police, and economy in some way..Also, if you want to use everything and have access to everything, you must work, and benefit the society, because if you don't, nobody will and such society may advance poorly.. Of course your job won't be 9 hours a day, because many other people will work, and nobody actually can be unemployed, system could never afford unemployment..NOW, just imagine the speed of progress in such society ^^

[-] 2 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

This is the best approach to global economy I've seen yet. The chinese workers now that they have American corporations don't need to work for a lower wage and demand the same wage we used to get and this should for every country that American businesses went to. Global manufacturing should equal global wages and benefits. This definitely works against what the 1% were achieving with global manufacturing.

[-] 2 points by arcodorko (49) 2 years ago

This is a horrible article...for months OWS has been saying the 1% is the problem when it's the 100% that is actually greedy in America...nobody likes to admit it...but we ALL are....black Friday is a clear example of that. How do we stop the horrible working conditions in China? Boycott New Balance shoes...well if you're gonna do that might as well not buy a computer to post articles on this site...same labor, be it China, Malaysia, Burhma, Taiwan etc....don't by those phones and camera's that we're using to post vids of a dozen hipsters "mic-checking" uninterested Wal-mart shoppers and again those computers used to post up there....sometimes I think that OWS can be so naive and hypocritical in it's statements it loses it's credibility with the good points it has. The picture above is as jaded as the news Fox and MSNBC puts out...putting up tents on private property where the owner is allowing it is far different than private property where the owner doesn't want it or public property where you're impeding the fair use of all citizens....I mean really that pic screams "Shawn Hannity makes a point and wants you to take it as he says"

[-] 2 points by ericethegreat (2) from Tucson, AZ 2 years ago

Arcodorko's post discusses about the hypocritical nature of consumerism within Occupy Wall Street. The post draws upon examples of laptops and webcams purchased in the movement. Such possessions carry labels that are undoubtedly read as: "Made (somewhere in Asia)." However, reliance upon foreign trade has been an issue of resources. When "free markets" are finally established, meaning that options will include products made in postindustrial nations, people will be able to direct their money toward a domestic economy. People will also be empowered to boycott products from nations that grant miserable working conditions. This idea stands among the wide variety of ideas as well as approaches to an ideal system.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Agreed.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

I don't partake in Black Friday.... never have and never will. I don't even partake in Christmas. Please don't call me greedy.

[-] 1 points by arcodorko (49) 2 years ago

So you're saying you've never bought anything you've WANTED (not needed) on sale anywhere? Doesn't have to be black Friday...anytime somebody buys a WANT for the cheapest price they can find there's more than just frugality involved. It's the fact that you don't want to part with more money than usual for a want a so as to hold onto as much wealth as possible there's a little inner greed involved.

Food (and food prep items), shelter, health, and clothes are basic human needs....everything else is a WANT. Nobody "needs" a cell phone, car (in MOST cases), computer, TV, stereo, ipod, waffle maker, etc.....

The reason there's chinese workers making the products they do for the shitty wage and condition they do and why the corporations are using them for the cheap labor is because there is X amount of $$$ Americans and other citizens of developed nations are willing to pay for it. They've studied to know how much people are willing to spend the iphone would not be as popular as it is if it cost $1,000...I agree they still overcharge for a lot of their items but they know exactly what we WANT and how much we're willing to pay for it.....

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

I'm talking about Black Friday specifically. I guess you didn't comprehend that. I don't do it, because I'm not caving in to marketing scams that retailers came up with so they can pad their pockets more. It's not because I want to hang onto my money more. I spend plenty of money on things that benefit me (to do things I enjoy doing) but don't follow the sheeples when things such as Black Friday and Sweetest Day are invented as marketing scams. I spend plenty of money on a regular basis. And I'm not wealthy, so there's no wealth to hold onto. I'm very middle class.

You're a frickin' imbecile.

[-] 1 points by arcodorko (49) 2 years ago

Yes, name calling, there we go. Which makes me wonder why I even try discussions on the internet, the anonymity of it lets people lower themselves to acting like a child because there's no shame or class felt needed....

I didn't say you want to hang onto your money more because you DIDN'T participate in Black Friday....I'm talking about anytime you take advantage of any kind of sale, not just event driven marketing...I guess you didn't comprehend that....

I said black Friday was a clear EXAMPLE of the greed of the American 100%...

You see an ad on TV...marketing scam...small business Saturday....marketing scam (American Express)...mail in rebate on new phone or whatever....HUGE marketing scam...cheaper phone with new contract...marketing scam..."$2000 cash back on new car".....marketing scam...

And middle class America is very wealthy in the minds of most the population of the world....just because you're not living it up like a Kardashian does not make you poor...a lot of people out there don't have luxury to spend money on things that benefit them (to do the things they enjoy doing). They don't or barely make enough to feed clothe, and shelter them and their family....

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Who's acting like a child? You're the one who accused me of something that simply isn't true. Instead of acting like you know everything about someone, you should think more before you post. Accusing me of wanting to keep my money because of greed is completely childish and asinine.

So, instead of running you mouth, educate yourself before doing so. I just love how people like you call others out for name calling while you think it's OK to make up bullshit about them.

[-] 1 points by arcodorko (49) 2 years ago

I haven't ACCUSED you (SwissMiss)of anything....I haven't acted like I know you....I haven't made up a thing about YOU. All I've done is pointed out examples of American greed and how we the 100% can be a bit hypocritical.

I guess you've misinterpreted my use of the words "you", "they" "somebody" as specifc toward you, SwissMiss, and not as generalizations.....

I can admit, I've seen shit, I don't need on-sale in the paper or in an ad and bought it because I wanted it, but only if it was at what I thought was "the right price" and why at that price? So I could have more money to buy other stuff I don't NEED...can't you???

And I'm not saying this individually is on the same scale as the greed of the "1%", but collectively we all help them make it easier for them to obtain their wealth through our own greed.....

I honestly don't believe you're out there pushing down old ladies and children for a $5 George Foreman grill....but c'mon you can honestly say you've never taken advantage of a deal or used a coupon? Yes it's common sense to want to get something when it's cheaper...but what drives this? Marketing...targeting our own greed...people think it's being frugal but it's also consumer marketing at play.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

"It's the fact that you don't want to part with more money than usual for a want a so as to hold onto as much wealth as possible there's a little inner greed involved."

That's not accusatory? How do YOU know what my motives are?

And as for people wanting to buy things very as little as possible, for some people/a lot of people, that's a necessity, because they don't have a lot to spend on things like food, clothing that they need, etc. and have to watch every cent that they spend. Accusing all people of being greedy because they're looking for the lowest price is ridiculous. If someone is a millionaire/billionaire or makes well into 6 figures and then looks for the lowest price all the time, I'd say they are greedy. For the rest of us, we have to watch what we spend, so that we can pay our bills and live a decent life without going into debt.

[-] 1 points by arcodorko (49) 2 years ago

Well in general I wasn't trying to say you were a horrible greedy person, and nothing compared to some of the 1%.

But for most/ a lot of people in this country living a "decent life" includes cable TV, wifi in the house, a cell phone that has to do more than just send and receive phone calls.

Your last sentence above is spot on. That's thing though a lot of the rest of us aren't watching what we spend. And at the same time we like to think we are but then we see some gadget, recreational item "on sale" and rationalize going into a little debt as "I need this"

I apologize if I'm wasn't/ am not being clear enough in the point I was trying to make and it sounded like I was personally accusing you. That is not my intent. I don't post on here to pick fights or be a troll...I like the discussion...even if somebody doesn't agree with me or I don't agree with them...I feel it's beneficial to hear others opinions and can learn and grow from it. I might change my my mind on things, nor change anybody's mind, but that's not my goal....

[-] 2 points by greg2 (55) 2 years ago

Let me be serious:

I think the phrase, "Love Thy Neighbor" is lost to many Americans, it being a religious phrase, but we can put it in a new light.

The meaning has nothing to due wth the "hugging" of your neighbor, but one of mutual respect and reciprocal altruism. This I think people can understand: they can understand the "concept" of loving thy neighbor.

If you saw your neighbor struggling to get a couch up his stairs, you would offer to assist, just as he would offer to assist you. We see examples of this everyday: a stalled car in the road gets helped off the road; someone drops money and someone else returns it to him; someone falls down and we ask, "Are you all right?" These little acts of "love" happen all the time.

If one goes to, or reads first hand accounts of, Occupy Camps, you will see for yourself these concepts in action: "If you are hungry, we will feed you. If you are cold, we will give you a jacket. If you are tired, we will offer you space."

Barring the obvious case of hygiene when you are camping out with no running water...

It is a vicious lie from Right-wing pundits that Occupiers are "dirty, hippie, druggies" that want a free ride.

Most Occupiers are saints. Law-abiding, inclusive, kind. And most are intellectuals.

That there has been some cases "broken toilets" in small businesses by some Occupiers -- mostly due to over-use, not vandalism -- that is hardly a reason to condemn them all.

That there has been some cases of graffiti, broken windows and thrown bottles -- mostly by the "Black Bloc" -- that is hardly a reason to condemn them all.

Shall we equate all Christians with Westboro Baptists? Of course not.

It is a vicious lie from Right-wing pundits that the Occupy Movement is one of violence.

The police have been the most violent perpetrators of all as anyone can see in Youtube videos.

There is one other thing you will hear from an Occupy Camp: "If you want your voice heard, we will let you speak."

It is the latter action that is most important to the Occupy Movement; and at the same time the least understood by its naysayers.

The OWS haters here (forgive me my trespasses, but picking verbal fights with trolls can be fun), do not understand the concept of "Love Thy Neighbor" and only repeat lies from the Right-wing.

For more information go to:

http://www.occupyboston.org/

http://www.occupyoakland.org/

http://occupylosangeles.org/

(Sorry for the repost, but somethings are important.)

[-] 1 points by averagejoel (25) 2 years ago

I was curious about how you were putting the phrase on a new light? Sounds good from a secular or non secular pov. Also I think you may be overstating that most occupiers are saints, all inclusive, kind and intellectuals although I am sure there are a number of them. Be careful of generalization. I am a Catholic and conservative and I get along with everyone who is not an ass and my analysis does not include political or religious leanings. I could really care less what people believe in as long as they are good to each other or they stay out of peoples way and they don't harm others. If more people on this or other forums could do this than I think things would probably go much smoother.

[-] 2 points by NobleActivist (6) 2 years ago

The term "Black Friday" is insensitive to African-Americans, and implies that they are behind this capitalist scam. Shouldn't it be called "White Friday" or something?

[-] 1 points by averagejoel (25) 2 years ago

I think you are overthinking it.

[-] 1 points by icfmike (173) 2 years ago

buy our stuff Friday, all you overconsumers...how much stuff do you have to throw away so the new stuff fits in your house ?

[-] 2 points by OWS99 (12) 2 years ago

Excellent piece. Shared article on Facebook accompanied by this remark:

"Don't you see the connection? U.S. Manufacturing jobs exported to China (so the U.S. corporations don't have to give you a job, pay you a living wage, provide you with health insurance, and heed environmental and labor laws, among others). Now the Chinese workers who got your job are sick of being overworked and underpaid as a result of this corporate abuse. Now add Black Friday. AMERICAN consumers buying the cheap crap from China, thus supporting the corporations who committed the crime to begin with (i.e. moving those manufacturing jobs to China). GET IT?"

Black Friday really serves to separate the 'Sheeple' from the 'People'. Knowledge most definitely is power.

[-] 2 points by dustette (2) from 阿尔肯, Flemish Region 2 years ago

The global supply/value chain behind this small shoe factory in Huangjiang: it belongs to YueYuen ltd., which is a footwear manufactuer headquartered in Hong Kong but has a Taiwanese parent company (pou chen group). According to Wiki and its official website, YueYuen is 'the largest branded athletic and casual footwear manufacturer in the world', making shoes for major international brand name companies such as Nike, Crocs, Adidas, Reebok, Asics, New Balance, Puma, Timberland and Rockport.

[-] 1 points by icfmike (173) 2 years ago

o k so I won't wear any shoes, don't like them anyway, no leather belt either, most of my clothes are made of hemp, I'll probably have to smoke them soon as the US Feds are busting medical pot stores in CA.

[-] 2 points by Standanddeliver (2) 2 years ago

The fact you are comparing yourselves to starving workers is quite pitiful. I worked very hard for my degree and I feel I deserve my salary. I came from a poor family in a small farming community and I made my own way. I was awarded all of my education through scholarships due to my hard work. You are not the 99%. You are the 1% who feels you deserve to take from us people who work for what we have. Shame really, some of you appear quite intelligent judging by the quality of language you use. Quite obviously your position has nothing to do with aptitude. Perhaps apply youselves and join the society that the 99% enjoy.

[-] 2 points by warbstar (210) 2 years ago

My education cost me $100K. What it got me was a career that was exported over five times to other countries. Each time it cost me even more money to retrain.

In addition, with the new business models that the 1% are exploiting, any worker from anywhere in the world can do most any American job via the Internet. Unless you are the 1% you will be next.

Worse, I never got the ROI that I expected from my so-called lifetime occupation as a Software Developer. As soon as I started making six figures, management exported by job. That happened at three different companies. First the pay fell by 25%, then 50%, then came starvation.

You are ignorant and quite ill informed.

[-] 1 points by averagejoel (25) 2 years ago

My education cost me $150k. I am an artist and graduated with my Master's in Fine Art a few years ago. I am fortunate enough to make a lot of money as an artist and I also have a job in art. For some reason there are a ton of art jobs right for artists right now.

[-] 2 points by SeaChange (134) 2 years ago

We are declaring solidarity in support of, not comparing ourselves to the Chinese workers. Nowhere in the article above does it say that the situation of American workers and that of the Chinese workers are the same. However we are all in our own ways victims of the system of the 1%, and we need to support each other however we can. While we are exploited in our own country, I agree that we have to acknowledge that the exploitation elsewhere is far worse.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

"Quite obviously your position has nothing to do with aptitude", I was actually thinking the same about you. Honestly, there are naive and uneducated views all along the spectrum. But, with the complex problems we face today, we will have to work together.

[-] 1 points by Mark01 (82) 2 years ago

were tryin really hard

[-] 0 points by ComunistUSA (58) 2 years ago

Perfect

[-] 2 points by jeremyrishe (2) 2 years ago

Yes yes yes.

[-] 2 points by JosephCouture (45) 2 years ago

Scanning the mainstream papers today I see virtually nothing meaningful written about the suffering, exploitation and hopeless despair faced by much of the wold's population- and I probably won't in the future, either. That is because the function of the media is to prop up the system that created it to allow that system to continue to profit off the backs of the poor...while the media itself makes a profit selling the lie that the system itself is just.

Read the insights of one mainstream journalist who quit in despair as he explains "The Truth About the LIes We Are Told" here at www.josephcouture.com

[-] -3 points by chunkylover (27) 2 years ago

Shut up bitch.

[-] 1 points by jeffyarboro1 (2) 2 years ago

Absolutely agree with what my sisters and brothers have articulated! The global struggles are our own and we must stand in soldarity with brothers and sistters globally. No more US paramilitary equipment to the middle east! (inclusive of Bahrian, Tunesia, Egypt, Syria-uh hello?, UAE, SA and others) Lawyers, can you help identify litigation that would hold these groups accountable? Is it the ATCA?

[-] 1 points by vtexx (6) 2 years ago

Nice impact asswipes. Record sales on Black Friday. No..but seriously...keep going.

[-] 1 points by JeffersonNotMao (3) 2 years ago

Great for them in the meantime I will love every min of buying the cheap stuff they sell us !!!!

What part of the picture of Best Buy is showing people wating outside a store to spend money to keep the store in business and employ many people DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ???

Also what part of the term PRIVATE PROPERTY do you fools not understand ?????

Best Buy chose to have a sale and chose to allow people with jobs and money to wait outside prior to opening !!!

Why is that so hard for you knuckle draggers who seem to want to go back to a society without freedoms to understand the basic concept that PRIVATE PROPERTY = FREEDOM

NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND AS YOU SEEM TO BELIEVE !

[-] 1 points by OccupyNews (1152) 2 years ago

I think it important to see how the media spun this year's black friday, I feel it was in part to try and demoralize the occupy movement.

http://www.occupynews.blogspot.com/2011/11/media-spins-2011-black-friday-record.html

[-] 1 points by Kevabe (81) 2 years ago

Hahaha Black Friday was record breaking in sales. Congrats OWS!

[-] 1 points by aircm1982 (2) 2 years ago

This incident happend a week ago, around 11/18/2011, not on the Black Friday. The administrator should investigate the post before publish it. If you understand chinese, you can search online and the news has been reported in many chinese website.

[-] 1 points by aircm1982 (2) 2 years ago

Does nobody care about truth but just bubbling?

[-] 1 points by Piratess11 (2) 2 years ago

was not covered in reg news!!!!

[-] 1 points by robynjane (6) from Plainview, NY 2 years ago

"Occupy Christmas" this year: Shop using the Fair Trade Federation http://fairtradeusa.org/ http://www.fairtradefederation.org/ Do not support unfair working conditions in the manufacturing of your gifts. Make sure there is "room at the Inn" for everyone this year, including those who make the gifts you give. So spread the word!! "Occupy Christmas." Everyone can participate. Everyone. Peace On Earth, Goodwill To Mankind.

[-] 1 points by robynjane (6) from Plainview, NY 2 years ago

"Occupy Christmas" this year: Shop using the Fair Trade Federation Do not support unfair working conditions in the manufacturing of your gifts. Make sure there is "room at the Inn" for everyone this year, including those who make the gifts you give. So spread the word!! "Occupy Christmas." Everyone can participate. Everyone. Peace On Earth, Goodwill To Mankind.

[-] 1 points by robynjane (6) from Plainview, NY 2 years ago

"Occupy Christmas": Support Fair Trade this year. Boycotting Black Friday is a start, but let's encourage all people of goodwill to "Occupy Christmas" and shop for the holidays only within the principles of Fair Trade. This means solidarity with Chinese and other oppressed workers. Make sure there is "room at the Inn" for all, including those who make your gifts this year. "Occupy Christmas" Support Fair Trade.

[-] 1 points by Piratess11 (2) 2 years ago

Wow this was not covered on any tv news at all....

[-] 1 points by TheMaster (63) 2 years ago

Black Friday: record sales. Lol!

[-] 1 points by shane33 (1) from 福州, 福建省 2 years ago

I'm so amazed at the news of Huangjiang reported in ows, because of this kind of news almost be deleted in China. Such phenomenon is common here.But Chinese people seldom fight for their rights,and always bear it.We love peace. I hope one day exploitation and oppress no longer exist in the world .

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Is living under fascism living in peace?

[-] 1 points by osdan (1) 2 years ago

The problem with this is that it blames ordinary consumers, many on low incomes for social injustices like workers being paid poor wages. The message is that it's the fault of consumers who through their "demand" or "obession" with cheap products like clothes and food (wow who would have though poor people would want things to be cheap?) are causing workers in developing countries to be paid terrible wages and work in appaling conditions to make those products. Such a message ignores the economic inequalities in rich countries where so many ordinary people can only afford to buy food and clothing that is cheap, in the case of food unhealthy, in the case of clothing does not last ("make do and mend instead of buying new clothes" demand the rich anti-budget clothing line activists!!! URGGGH!!!!) and is made using unethical methods like sweatshop labour.

[-] 1 points by ibown (2) 2 years ago

What about the ball player who makes 20 million a year plus endorsements for the products consumers buy, no protest there?

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

I agree that that is bullshit, too.

[-] 1 points by ibown (2) 2 years ago

How about the ball player who makes 20 million a year plus endorsements (for the products you buy), no protest there, or do you like the price of a ticket?

[-] 1 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

It wasn't hard for me to do. If you must shop or give gifts,make your own.

[-] 1 points by zlaser (1) from 科林斯堡, CO 2 years ago

This Black Friday, as millions of Americans scramble to find the "best deals" on consumer goods, thousands of Chinese manufacturing workers are striking to demand livable wages, job security, and other basic rights. In Huangjiang alone, 8,000 striking shoe factory workers took the streets Thursday, blocking roads and standing down lines of riot police. Their factory, owned Yue Yuen Industrial Holdings, is a major provider to the sportswear company New Balance.

I want to say two things: 1.Chinese manufacturing workers have already got their "livable wages, job security, and other basic rights". For example, an average Chinese worker can get at least 100 RMB each day,and boss must provide food for him(her). If he(she) can do some technical job, he(she) can get the salary mach more than this.
2.These workers do the job, is in order to get more money for ther family. If you resisit the shoes and other Chinese goods, you are actually blocking their way to get money. Are you happy to see that?

[-] 1 points by hajo (10) 2 years ago

Actions to hurt the Corporations are :

  1. Boycott all Corporate Goods and Services.

  2. Pull your money out of Corporate Banks and Investments.

  3. Create and Support Alternatives,that threaten Corporation.

  4. Enlighten others to Boycott.

[-] 1 points by BOA (10) 2 years ago

Walmart advertises career criminals out in front of their stores posing as charities, soliciting "work" so they can break into homes and steal. Then they extort you in writing to get your property back while the police threaten to arrest you if you don't pay the ransom. Beware of Walmart and beware the Coalition for the Homeless and police - they steal cars. Call assistant D.A. Robert S. Tobias 614-645-8940 and tell him to prosecute these criminals - flood the phone lines.

[-] 1 points by BOA (10) 2 years ago

Walmart advertises career criminals out in front of their stores posing as charities, soliciting "work" so they can break into homes and steal. Then they extort you in writing to get your property back while the police threaten to arrest you if you don't pay the ransom. Beware of Walmart and beware the Coalition for the Homeless and police - they steal cars. Call assistant D.A. Robert S. Tobias 614-645-8940 and tell him to prosecute these criminals - he'll know what you're talking about.

[-] 1 points by BOA (10) 2 years ago

Walmart advertises career criminals out in front of their stores posing as charities, soliciting "work" so they can break into homes and steal. Then they extort you in writing to get your property back while the police threaten to arrest you if you don't pay the ransom. Beware of Walmart and beware the Coalition for the Homeless and police - they steal cars. Call assistant D.A. Robert S. Tobias 614-645-8940 and tell him to prosecute these criminals - he'll know what you're talking about. Flood the lines.

[-] 1 points by anonalien (77) 2 years ago

it is not just that TV says so. it is the cultural narrative: services and consumption is what makes this country keep on spinnin'. and because you're not buying and you keep on telling people not to buy, you'll be perceived by the system and every single person who believes in it un-american.

[-] 1 points by anonalien (77) 2 years ago

it delights my heart to see them strike.

and can't wait till the day arrives when the prices of goods in America will mirror such changes in China (higher pay and benefits for Chinese workers). everything will become so horribly, terribly expensive that the American society will finally be able to perceive the true value of their dollar : P

[-] 1 points by cyberzyme (3) 2 years ago

P.S. instead of occupy wall street it should be Occupy the World!

[-] 1 points by cyberzyme (3) 2 years ago

Yes hit the 1% were it hurts. Drive down profits and stock value in the factories and corps. The 1% have most of there money invested in the factories and corps. In order to preserve their capital they will pull their money out of the stock market and crash the world...end of old economic system enter a new economic system..a resource based system the next step in evolution of economy, science principles applied scientifically to the benefit of all not just the 1%.

[-] 1 points by tannerface (13) 2 years ago

For those who continue to repeat go after DC/politicians, think of it this way. If you are trying to catch the mob boss you don't press charges against the lackeys (politicians) you use them and build a case against the bosses (wall st.). I will say though that you act like there are no protests happening in DC when there are. The protest originating in NY is pretty much to show everyone where the problem is. I mean Wall St. alone is not the problem yes. However it is where the problem stems from as well as the Federal reserve.

[-] 1 points by revrevrev (7) 2 years ago

You guys should first learn to protest like the East Asians. They protest on the streets, not sidewalks. They don't only shout slogans, they take actions. They fight with the police, instead of getting pushed about by the police. They are prepared to fight anyone, including the army.

[-] 1 points by wewontgetfooledagain (23) 2 years ago

FOX News Reporters Fired For Telling The Truth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZkDikRLQrw

same video with interesting "About This Video" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcjzdoiL0j4

The Corporation (complete, chapters 1 to 23) http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=FA50FBC214A6CE87

Are you ready for the Breakdown? http://www.madeinusa.org/breakdown.html

http://www.madeinusa.org/

[-] 1 points by sato (148) 2 years ago

I love the pic. Make it go viral :D

[-] 1 points by NRevercomb (9) 2 years ago
[-] 1 points by ClericTGLAM (11) from Middle, NJ 2 years ago

Dont think a little blood and a broken skull is bad ..... in Greece , they set each other in fire , humans killing humans for paper ....... the stupidity ......

[-] 1 points by ClericTGLAM (11) from Middle, NJ 2 years ago

Thank you guys for existing and showing us the right path . It never stops to amaze me , how we can do the most horrible things to each other , steal , lie , cheat , betray and even kill our own brother , for a piece of paper that is named dollar , euro , yen that has no value at all but the one we give ? How did we became so blind ? There are historians that name the 20-th century, a century of crime , and for what ? Ideologies ,money , and world dominion . The time has come to stop this . Let them underestimate us cause we're just a few , nobody believed the US can exist back in the days , but we showed them that if the need comes , we will step on the heads of kings to be free, independent and happy.

[-] 1 points by fatimah (5) 2 years ago

It is gratifying to see that some workers are not afraid to stand up for their rights in China.I hope this strategy prevails in the other emerging markets as well.I agree,we have struck a chord that is reasonating.Let's hope for fair elections in Tunisia,Yemen,Libya,Syria,and Kemet.

[-] 1 points by fatimah (5) 2 years ago

It is gratifying to see that some workers are not afraid to stand up for their rights in China.I hope this strategy prevails in the other emerging markets as well.I agree,we have struck a chord that is reasonating.Let's hope for fair elections in Tunisia,Yemen,Libya,Syria,and Kemet.

[-] 1 points by Jimmy44 (-57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

With a personal income tax rate of 81.6%, they certainly have a reason to be angry. Most are too scared to protest against the authoritarian Chinese government, so protesting against corporate employers and demanding livable wages is the alternative. Although they are shockingly underpaid by US standards, you also have to take into account their cost of living if you want to compare it to US - something OWS will rarely do as it does not fit the agenda as well. While I do agree their living wage (read: take-home pay) is shocking, it's not solely the opportunistic international corporations that are to blame. This is an argument I've been trying to make all along - in China, as in the US, the root of the problem is the governments & politicians that enable this behavior. If legislation were in place that made this kind of exploitation illegal - or at least limited it (since capitalism is based on exploitation), then we might all be a little happier. No point blaming Wall St or big Corporates - they will not change as long as they are keeping within the law. Who makes the law - the government. THAT is where you should focus your efforts, not on Wall St or subway users or people who can not effect change. It is so simple, yet OWS members seem so blind to what is right in front of them. Very frustrating.

[-] 1 points by sunchild (2) 2 years ago

The thing is NOT TO PROTEST, but to IGNORE. By protesting, we just fuel anger, while ignoring and choosing a different way of life makes us strong.

[-] 1 points by scottx (7) 2 years ago

Citizens are urged to watch and listen to free videos and music of pro-freedom anti-police state bands. Music can and should be an important force for change.

Example Scott X and the Constitution Commandos:

Videos at:

http://www.youtube.com/user/scottxmysteryband

Music:

http://www.ilike.com/artist/Scott+X+Band

[-] 1 points by peterpeace (2) from Concrete, WA 2 years ago

Ionce got in an argument with an old school buddy.He said who would you work for if ther was no rich people,I told hom that there would always be work,people used to groe there own food ,build there own houses and make there own clothes,raise there own kids,we dont need rich people,the only thing they do well is steal from everybody else IE,( kings,dictators,ceo's, etc

[-] 1 points by onionrovirosa (22) 2 years ago

Occupy the media. Yahoo has 10 top news about black Friday none about OWS. CNN top stories. Black friday Syria and Egipr cero OWS Occupy the media http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-the-media-cnn-fox-news-and-nbc/#comment-430494

[-] 1 points by Cjoy77 (4) 2 years ago

Power to the people!! If Americans want a change in America they have to be the change they can not rely on one man to be the change for the many. We the people have to make that change. If continue to do the same thing and expect a different outcome that is considered insanity. America let's stop this insanity now. Make that change by buying local. That is the first step. We r the people and we have the power! Make the change today!

[-] 1 points by engeda (6) 2 years ago

I like occupy street but u should stick with ur own country problem but u should stop meddling with other countries like ur cousins the what u call the 1% long live 99% americans death to colonial dream

[-] 1 points by Violetarojo (119) from Washington, DC 2 years ago

I didn't even buy my triple iced espresso yesterday. Nothing! I didn't compra de t incluso mi café express helado triple ayer. ¡Nada! 我didn' 甚而t购买我的三倍被冰的浓咖啡昨天。 没什么! 我didn't 甚而t購買我的三倍被冰的濃咖啡昨天。 沒什麼! I didn' t koopt gisteren zelfs mijn drievoudige bevroren espresso. Niets! I didn' t; achat de t même mon café express glacé triple hier. Rien ! I didn' t-sogar Kauf mein dreifaches gefrorenes Espresso gestern. Nichts! Ι didn' το τ αγοράζει ακόμη και το τριπλό παγωμένο espresso μου χθες. Τίποτα! I didn' affare di t persino il mio caffè espresso ghiacciato triplice ieri. Niente! I didn' tの買物私の三重の凍らされたエスプレッソ昨日。 何も! I didn' t 구매 조차 나의 3배 얼린 에스프레소 어제. 아무것도! I didn't покупка t даже мой втройне замороженный espresso вчера. Ничего! Mim didn' compra de t mesmo meu café congelado triplo ontem. Nada! God bless you all!

[-] 1 points by RomCath (24) 2 years ago

Greece is under Fourth Reich. I saw a woman buy olive oil in a small glass, she had no money for a bottle. A man of Goldman Sachs governs...

[-] 1 points by benowulf (1) from Cambridge, MA 2 years ago

We need to boycott consumerism, forever. We cannot just boycott black friday, or even have another one of those favorites of mine "buy nothing day." We need to be "buy nothing" people once and for all.

When all is said and done, none of what we are doing here is going to matter unless we stop consuming. As long as we are consuming non-essential material goods we are funding not only wall street, but their rape of our planet and exploitation of all life on the planet. As long as we allow them to convince us that we need to throw out antiquated things and buy new things, we are their slaves.

It goes beyond even that. How will we ever get money out of politics if we don't get it out of our lives? We say we want to get money out of politics, then we turn around and are still looking for that way to get rich so WE can HAVE everything we want. This is truly the insidious slavery that we are suffering from. We are slaves to want. We are slaves to the idea that we are not self-sufficient. As long as money is a priority in our lives, it will be a priority in government. We've got to start with ourselves.

The government bows to huge corporations with fat pocket lobbyists because we make those people so important. We consume those corporations' goods. We point fingers at big oil corporations but we heat our houses with oil, and we drive gasoline powered cars, tractors, leaf blowers, weed whackers...etc. etc. It will be hard to live without these things for many many people, but it can be done. It requires effort, and it especially requires community, or what I like to call "sharing." Money has made each person feel like an island...like they need nobody. As long as you can make money, you really don't need anyone else in our current society.

The irony of our culture is that we threw off the yoke of the british monarchy in one of the most david and goliath revolutions in history...only to set up a country where we are all fighting with each other to become little kings and queens of our own. We think we all need to have our own little castle (house), our own fancy carriages (cars), we don't want to have to work for our food so we're all trying to figure that way to make income roll in without having to work for it. We don't want to be peasants with dirty faces. The fact is that if an environmentalist had been alive back in those days she would have looked at the monarchs of the world and said, "If we all consumed at the rate they do, this planet won't last another 300 years!!" Well, now we're all trying to consume at that rate.

Anyway, stop buying stuff or we lose.

Learn to make clothes like Gandhi Learn to grow some food Learn to eat less Learn to buy less Share your knowledge Learn to repair clothes/shoes Learn to get along without new electronics Stop watching television Learn to eat healthy Learn to share, learn to live in communities rather than isolation Learn how to make a fire without any technology, including matches Stop buying.
Stop caring about money.
Stop racing everyone else to become first on Wall Street's list of the best consumers who support our greed.

This is the only way to win. We could even topple the government in a violent coup, but if we don't first uproot our strong desire to consume...then we will be literally funding our enemies. We are working ourselves to the bone for money that we then turn around and use to fund the opposing army....thats just plain dumb.

[-] 1 points by tsdevi (307) 2 years ago

If you take a look at usdebtclock.org, it cites that the total corporate assets are about equal to the U.S. national debt. There is a big lie that is perpetuated in the media is that corporations and/or the super wealthy are the jobs creators and that they know best what our needs are. In a time when there is so much emphasis placed upon gaming, social networking and the like, the pressing issues of water shortages, corporate dominance of natural and precious resources, like water, food shortages, the pressing issues are not discussed. It is not enough to support the working class, it is time to question why the working class supports global plutocracy. What do they do for We the People that we cannot do for ourselves? This is an earnest question, because we cannot simply take comfort in the polarization of class based politics. Instead we need to demystify the discussion and stop allowing for the blind use of labels and cliches. I do not care that Mayor Bloomberg is rich in funny money, let us ask how in fact the money is made.

[-] 1 points by tsdevi (307) 2 years ago

usdebtclock.org

[-] 1 points by quercus (93) 2 years ago

consumer-ism is the belief system of economic - politics.

barrow, charge, beg, steal, exploit, more is more less is less , and that is how we keep score.

the next game, the next election, NEXT year, ( in ten years, we will save trillons ) by the time of the next GENERATION, they will have become so NOW, greed and cynicism WILL be the facebook standard TO POWER.

[-] 1 points by XXXMMMYYY (2) 2 years ago

Lets Bring the Jobs Home...Isn't that really the fix to so many issues we are facing as Americans. Companies that manufacture overseas should be taxed 50% of all gross profits. We need to make it more expensive to exploit humans then to create jobs for our own citizens.

[-] 1 points by adamanto75 (9) 2 years ago

I say we get together and none of us pay our income taxes until our government uses our tax money in our best interests not the corporations!!!!!.... I would pay my taxes if there was like a checklist that I could check off where I could direct my tax money to where I wanted it to go!!!!

[-] 1 points by mikeh9 (18) 2 years ago

I love that picture contrasting consumerism with political activism. If more Americans cared about politics than the new iPod and xbox game we'd be living in a better place.

[-] 1 points by Joseph9981 (1) 2 years ago

That is a really bad picture comparing the tents and comparing the mobs. FYI

[-] 1 points by NYCRulez (2) from New York, NY 2 years ago

AGAIN.....I saw a lot of Shoppers out there today, I saw some protesters too, about 1% of them, are you sure YOU are the 99%? I somehow think not, you kinda stink on ice and so does your mathematical skills, perhaps this is why you all do not have jobs LOL Please stop deleting my post, this is America and this is my right to FREE speech. Is it your practice to stifle one's right to an opinion? MIC CHECK: You are Losing Steam.

[-] 1 points by 00zero (20) 2 years ago

If your posts are being deleted it's probably because instead of having a valid debate you choose to throw insults. You did read the rules right? Just saying.

[-] 1 points by mollistan (1) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

We shouldn't be protesting people (the99%) buying Christmas presents or trying to get bargains. This will turn those people against us.

[-] 1 points by robynjane (6) from Plainview, NY 2 years ago

Support Fair Trade: "Occupy Christmas" Peace on Earth, Goodwill to Mankind

"Occupy Christmas": Support Fair Trade

[-] 1 points by 4TheHumanSocietyProject (504) 2 years ago

Its legal because its private property and not violent...

[-] 1 points by kphelps (16) 2 years ago

I never participate in Black Friday. Everyone in my household avoids all stores on that day except for food stores or drug stores, and only go to those stores on that day if it's extremely necessary. We hate how corporate chains like Walmart, Target, Macy's and Best Buy on that day sets out a petty few hot big items, mark them down to ridiculous low prices for only a few hours, then sit and watch a stampeding mob fight over them.

It reminds me of when I visited Mexico back in the 80s for the first time and saw a very evil person throw a quarter in a sewage trench so he could watch several impoverished boys jump in and fight for that quarter. At the time I could do nothing but watch in horror because this hideous man had several friends with him and I had only one buddy with me at the time. The police were unapproachable if you were an American.

Seeing the out-of-control mobs brings back these nightmares of that very day. In fact ... my wife and I do not participate in large gift giving around Christmas at all because it takes away from the real meaning of Christmas. We just give out a few gifts to our family members and usually the gifts are useful items. I feel that the more, or the more expensive the gifts a person gives is too much like trying to buy a persons love and affection, and to me this is not acceptable.

[-] 1 points by occupierx (3) from Houston, TX 2 years ago

Considering our efforts and what we stand for, this is alarming,

(Headline) HYPOCRITICAL Occupy Wall Street Whites Enjoy Murderous Thanksgiving Feasts While “Protesting” Financial Greed & Corruption Could we have been and should we be more sensitive in the future?'

http://blackfootsoldiers.wordpress.com/2011/11/26/savage-hypocritical-occupy-wall-street-whites-enjoy-murderous-thanksgiving-feasts-while-protesting-financial-greed-corruption/ .

[-] 1 points by rutgers797 (37) from Wall, NJ 2 years ago

http://vimeo.com/32239356

New movie called Thrive, puts a lot of OWS issues in perspective in a very enlightening way...

[-] 1 points by OccuPaco (21) 2 years ago

I personally appreciate the 'global coverage' of the Occupy movement, but I don't think its helping it's 'image' in the US. The very fact that these solidarity movements are linking-up causes them to be suspect in the eyes of xenophobic Americans who need to be persuaded to endorse the movement. Unfortunate but true.

Change America first; its like the whole climate change focus: cutting carbon in the US really matters, while its almost irrelevant in, like, Norway or Taiwan.

Think globally, Act Locally. But Credibility first.

[-] 1 points by Gregorytd (1) 2 years ago

I did not participate in Black Friday. I do not have to do a lot of Christmas shopping, but I do have to buy for my 2 nieces (2yr's), and nephew (5yr's). I decided to buy them U.S. saving's bonds instead of toy's. I think the bond's will do more for them later on than some useless piece of plastic junk.

[-] 1 points by robynjane (6) from Plainview, NY 2 years ago

"Occupy Christmas": Support Fair Trade this holiday season!

Buy through the Fair Trade Federation and other Fair Trade associated manufacturers. Make it a meaningful holiday for all people. Make sure there is "room at the Inn" for everyone, including those who make your gifts.

"Occupy Christmas": Support Fair Trade

[-] 1 points by nikilister (109) 2 years ago

OWS should force American Companies to provide Chinese workers compensation for their labor. Ows cannot expect the Chinese government to pay or compensate for labor rates that are equivalent or higher than US labor rates while the American Companies pay a small percentage of it for their own huge profits.

Before you say something stupid please do the math.

Ows needs to get its priorities straight as well. Making bold statements about Human Rights and Labor Conditions, in China and other countries American Companies do business with, comes with huge responsibility. There are millions of people in China that might be mislead and consequently affected by someone's idiotic rant. There are lives at stake.

If OWS does not do that in a scholastic manner it just seems like an irresponsible tool for CIA: a loud speaker blowing into the Pacific Ocean while annoying all the surfers trying to catch a descent wave.

[-] 1 points by kleinkev56 (2) 2 years ago

I have no problem promoting fairness and equity and speaking out against greed by those who don't contribute, bu how does crippling black friday business help the people that actually work? our country was founded on fairness and equality.. i understand and believe that. Hard work was always part of the equation. Get back to work and contribute to our society!

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Letting yourself get sucked into the Black Friday bullshit just supports the corporations who officially made it an official event... to benefit THEM and NO ONE ELSE.

How can you NOT see that???

[-] 1 points by Garybryant2 (42) 2 years ago

It's not like the Chinese violently put down peaceful protesters before, right? However, if I were the Chinese, I would think real hard about it this time around.

I will buy nothing today. I'm with you.

[-] 1 points by Obelloe (1) from Island Park, NY 2 years ago

Was this march to Foley square at 2pm planned or spontaneous? This was posted at 1:30 and I live in Queens so it would have been impossible for me to get there in time. Is there another website or resource that posts these marches further in advance?

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[-] 1 points by altazion1998 (1) 2 years ago

I like that we don't bash China because of the mess we make. I mean the people. It is china's government fault too. I love the 1% but not their actions. Peace for the new free world.

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[-] 0 points by Tinhorn (285) 2 years ago

So the Black Friday results are out. A 16% increase in spending from last year to the toon of 52 Billion dollars spent.

[-] 0 points by maxrommel3 (4) from Ridgefield, NJ 2 years ago

Hey everyone,

I bought five 52" HD TV's at Best Buy on Friday and i need to unload two of them. I'll sell them for $399 bucks each.

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[-] 0 points by ComunistUSA (58) 2 years ago

Highest grossing Black Friday ever recorded. All that "hard work" paid off.

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[-] 0 points by brettdecker (68) 2 years ago

'BUYcott Black Friday'!!!!

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[-] 0 points by ComunistUSA (58) 2 years ago

"Capitalism" "Communism"

"welfare recipients" welfare providers.

Because America says so.

[-] 0 points by maxrommel3 (4) from Ridgefield, NJ 2 years ago

I have two brand new 52" HD TV's for sale. I bought 10 yesterday and have just two left. $199 each.

[-] 0 points by maxrommel3 (4) from Ridgefield, NJ 2 years ago

Ok. Just one TV is left. But I can get more.

[-] 0 points by TheGrownUp (-1) 2 years ago

You are all idiots! Take a bath and go home, what your doing is a folly and hopeless, we are Capitalists and we are a Republic, not your little communist party or whatever your entitlement thinking is! GO HOME! Your worse than children!

[-] 0 points by OWSRIdiots (16) 2 years ago

You Obama zombies did not get nothing accomplished by trying to shut down "black Friday" idiots

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[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Are we done with the comparisons to other regimes?

[-] 0 points by Bender (98) from Meriden, CT 2 years ago

thats what's up! Get 'em China!

[-] 0 points by NYCRulez (2) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Losing Steam OWS?? I saw a lot of shoppers today. I saw some protesters too, I think I saw about 1% of them, are you guys sure "YOU" are the 99%, I somehow think not. You kinda suck.

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[-] 0 points by FreedomIn2012 (-36) from Hempstead, NY 2 years ago

The Chinese should occupy tian an men square! That will show the government that they mean business!!

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[-] 0 points by leoneo (76) 2 years ago

Did Boycott Black Friday work?

[-] 1 points by robynjane (6) from Plainview, NY 2 years ago

Keep it working. "Occupy Christmas": Support Fair Trade.

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[-] -1 points by MVSN (768) from Stockton, CA 2 years ago

So you commies want to support those commies?

[-] 2 points by SeaChange (134) 2 years ago

The Communist Party is part of the 1% in China (which is actually a "state capitalist" system), we're supporting the Chinese workers whose government is exploiting and repressing them, in collusion with Chinese and American corporations.

Fighting against the 1% is fighting against the 1%, whether it's the Communist Party, or the US corporate and political elite.

[-] 1 points by icfmike (173) 2 years ago

the chinese have no choice, not so much communist, but a dictatorship (1%) similar to 'the US corporate and political elite.' Our (US) rights look great on paper, I think they have seriously be eroded over the yrs...ows we're counting on you....

[-] 0 points by MVSN (768) from Stockton, CA 2 years ago

Hmmm...

[-] -2 points by chunkylover (27) 2 years ago

Destroy all seasonal hire positions! Seasonal hire retail jobs go to under-educated, often brown low-skilled workers who have never even heard of Chomsky. These carbon-exhaling, often obese brainless dead-time zombies do nothing but suck undeserved sustenance from the planet that rightfully belongs to white hipster douchebags!

Destroy seasonal hire positions! Withhold your parents money from the department stores and their zombie armies of brown baby mamas who are stealing your white utopia from you! You have enough outfits anyway! Save your money for beer!

Form picket lines outside the stores to keep the seasonal hires out. Beat them! Claw their eyes out! Lynch them! The planet is ours, not theirs! Read Pentti Linkola's essay in the June issue of Adbuster's. 90% of the world population is dead wood. Stop giving your money to wastes of life that the planet needs to die!

[-] -2 points by eyeofthetiger (304) 2 years ago

funny I never see blacks on a friday just on a monday

[+] -4 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

I feel like in a country of 1.3 billion people it would be pretty easy to just replace every one of the striking workers.

[-] -1 points by ropeknot (359) 2 years ago

Exactly! I think it's the same here! How many of them will lose there jobs for striking? How many of us will if we do the same? I've always wanted unionization, but unless you're part of the teamsters, you loose!

[-] 2 points by Joe4more (165) from Cranston, RI 2 years ago

That's not true. You might want to ask your Reps in Congress what happened to "Employee Free Choice Act"; why the Dem's aren't more vocal and against the union busting attempts across this country. The reason union jobs are more likely to pay unskilled blue collar, labor workers more than their counterparts is collective bargaining! You're right, we need more unions; if you are well paid and have good benefits, you may not want a union, but then again, those kinds of employers know how to keep their workforce engaged, motivated, and competitively compensated. No need for a union to fight for what you already have.

[-] 1 points by Mark01 (82) 2 years ago

not if we all strike together like they did in Oakland.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

Why would those who like their jobs want to strike?

[-] 1 points by SeaChange (134) 2 years ago

Seriously, who "likes" their job?

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

I like mine. I know all of my employees love theirs too.

[-] 1 points by SeaChange (134) 2 years ago

Maybe that's true, but how secure are they in being able to talk to you about what they really think?

By the way, would you be happy to let them form a union if they wanted to? What if just a few people were talking to the others about the idea of a union?

I'm not insinuating one way or the other, maybe they have no interest in a union or maybe they're already unionized, but just curious on a hypothetical level.

[-] 2 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Its futile to argue on this forum of anarchists.

American brilliance v American ignorance & arrogance

Americans build and operate the most incredible things including nuclear submarines, the internet, sports and entertainment while at the same time there is a simple and obvious bribery government working that undermines foreign policy, energy policy, massive budget deficits, a busted banking system, a corrupt court system that ignores checks - balances - and the law. Americans are content to be in a swamp of hypocrisy refusing to even look at the 9/11 evidence that points directly and only at George Bush, John Ashcroft, Cheney, the entire media, Larry Silverstein, and FBI Director Thomas Pickard.

The story that Pickard told directly to NYT writer Philip Shenon that is published in Shennon's book THE COMMISSION on page 247 was a nasty confrontation on July 12, 2001 when Pickard jumped out of his chair and into the face of John Ashcroft who refused to listen about the imminent 9/11 attack because Ashcroft was on the team to rig explosives in the towers and fire a missile into the Pentagon. Pickard should have ordered his agents to arrest Ashcroft to prevent him from ignoring the warnings. This would have been a mutiny of sorts that could be proven in court was warranted by Ashcroft's bizarre behavior.

Shenon's revelations throughout his book were never reported also to protect the criminal acts by Bush, Ashcroft and the generals involved in the plot.

The hypocrisy and ignorance that ignores the American exploitation of China's slavery policy prevents 50,000,000 Americans from working to manufacture all the supplies being made by Chinese slaves is unconstitutional. The media is very careful to blame China's currency value in order to cover up the obvious know slavery of more than 100,000,000 people. China loaned America $1.1 trillion and they aren't going to collapse the value of this loan by increasing their own currency.

Only SCREWED AGAIN exposes these ignorant and hypocritical decisions being made by the government Americans have chose to elect. It is in the personal interest of all SCREWED AGAIN readers to spread this post to all their associates in their email address file.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

They are secure in talking to me. I own a dental practice, there are only 8, sometimes 9, employees. Most have worked there for many years. I would oppose them joining a union, although I don't think that is really an issue in this industry.

[-] 2 points by SeaChange (134) 2 years ago

Ok, fair enough. Thanks for replying to my somewhat prying question.

I do think that in smaller businesses these issues are less of a problem maybe because all the employees work more closely together. I think something happens along the way in large corporations where this dynamic gets distorted, leading to huge wealth and power imbalances and a lack of communication and accountability. I wish there were a lot more small businesses in every industry, but unfortunately some things can only be done efficiently on a massive scale. But personally, that's part of why I see the need to regulate large corporations-- to equalize the playing field.

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[-] 1 points by Mark01 (82) 2 years ago

then they don't have to strike