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Planting Change: Guerrilla Gardening and the Occupy Movement

Posted 3 years ago on Nov. 8, 2011, 1:35 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt

guerrilla gardening

Guerrilla gardening is the occupation of ill-used land to support the communities and ecosystems to which that land rightfully belongs. As the Occupy movement "puts down roots" in public and private spaces across the world, guerilla gardening is essential to growing a sustainable movement free from dependance on corporate systems.

Students from Sterling College in Vermont came down to Occupy Wall Street and showed people how to plant and sow seeds anywhere where there is soil. In this short film, they demonstrate how easy it is to grow winter greens and beets right in the parks flower beds, and then speak earnestly and passionately about the importance of farming, and understanding where our food comes from:

Over the coming months, One Pack Productions and Seismologik Media will showcase some of the amazing people who are creating actions which can inspire people to practice being the change they wish to see in the world. For more information on guerrilla gardening, check out guerrillagardening.org.

237 Comments

237 Comments


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[-] 7 points by kristianb21 (33) 3 years ago

We need a SHARE button over here! Great articles coming left and right. That way we can spread the news quick.

[-] 5 points by tomhighmowingseedscom (5) 3 years ago

Go Sterling, go Vermont, go OWS. Wall Street can't touch the returns of a tomato seed, healthily growing in good soil. One seed will make 10,000 in 6 months. We are psyched to have High Mowing seeds planted in NYC! - Tom from High Mowing

[-] 1 points by watson21 (5) 3 years ago

Do tomatoes grow in the winter in NY? Another OWS miracle!!!!

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Inside they do.

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

Ask the mayor to have brookfield give them a dusting per their contract. Put up a greenhouse

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

10,000 in six months?? I must be a total failure at it. We have a relatively short growing season here and 125 cherry tomatoes was really pushing it per plant.

Were you referring to greenhouse plants with a heated environment, periods of artificial light etc.

Would love more information.

[-] 1 points by johni5isalive (1) 3 years ago

I think you are misreading the statement; he is saying that one seed will create 10,000 seeds during the life cycle of the plant.

[-] 1 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

Point well taken. I read it again, you are correct. Thanks.

[-] 3 points by KelseyRose (5) 3 years ago

Reading the comments on these postings is so interesting. The force with which people who are probably normal and sane most of the time will suddenly oppose a new idea... so vehement and quick and ignorant their responses... knowing very little about the issues and without having an intelligent conversation about it... is amazing. Maybe if you asked about things? Maybe if you asked how it could be helpful to you, as an individual, rather than assuming immediately that it will have an effect on you and that it will be negative... maybe than you could come to live happier, healthier lives... Maybe than you could stop hanging out on the website of something you are clearly so afraid of, making negative, defensive, and threatening comments to people who have no intention of hurting you. Why so much fear? Why so much worry? Why do people seem to need so much control over insignificant things in the world, and why the jump to defensiveness or accusatory stature over the shaking of that frail structure you've deemed safe? That structure that is ultimately, limiting you and hurting you much much more than any strangers' words ever could...

[-] 1 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

I have been asking for a long time now...Can't get a sane response from any of you.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

DITTO!!!!

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

Since you did not say SOME and made reference to "people" I am offended by your post. The comments that I have made regarding personal gardening and self support are not based on any desire to oppose a new idea, or ignorance. I have merely tried to help spread the understanding of the process, express the thought that a lot of the ideas presented are not in any way NEW and that some insight might be gained from someone who has actually lived the walk, the ramifications of broadcasting broad ideas without seeing the bigger picture. Sorry if I seemed ignorant.

[-] 3 points by Denofearth (41) 3 years ago

I come from a long line of organic gardeners. So much so that I've been doing it since before it was called organic gardening. I was just raised to believe that veggies fresh from the garden ( even if that garden is just a half wine barrel ) was a summer tradition. An added bonus to my gardening skills is that I have had to learn to can and freeze all the produce I can stash for the winter. Nothing better than spaghetti sauce made from tomatoes you grew and processed yourself.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

I will be freezing and canning a lot after my hall in late summer/early fall next year! I'm also into organics and am happy I am growing my own food WITHOUT toxic chemicals!

[-] 1 points by Denofearth (41) 3 years ago

Organics is great, but I am very wary of packaged organics. I also raise ducks ( for meat and eggs ) so I know exactly where my fertilizer comes from and even what goes into my little poop machines.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Yeah, I think we have to skeptical of just about everything. If you have to buy your organics, then try to buy local where you can find out about who produces it.

"my little poop machines"

Ha ha ha!!!

[-] 3 points by karenpoore (902) 3 years ago

You guys are getting the right idea. Self-sustainability and community. That is how you will win!

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Agreed.

[-] 3 points by audiman (90) 3 years ago

Far out! Bitchen idea!

[-] 3 points by efschumacher (74) from Gaithersburg, MD 3 years ago

This is where it started . . . see how far they've got in 3 years:

"It's an ordinary small town in England, but its residents claim they've discovered the secret that could save the planet. And with world leaders preparing to gather in Copenhagen in just over a week's time to debate how to do just that, the people of Todmorden in the Pennines this week issued an invitation: come to our town and see what we've done.

In under two years, Todmorden has transformed the way it produces its food and the way residents think about the environment. Compared with 18 months ago, a third more townspeople now grow their own veg; almost seven in 10 now buy local produce regularly, and 15 times as many people are keeping chickens.

The town centre is dotted with "help yourself" vegetable gardens; the market groans with local meat and vegetables, and at all eight of the town's schools the pupils eat locally produced meat and vegetables every lunchtime." continued ... http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/todmordens-good-life-introducing-britains-greenest-town-1830666.html

[-] 1 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

Sure takes me back 60 years. We were doing the same thing back them. I just can't figure out who dropped the ball on that one. Perhaps our education does exceed our knowledge.

[-] 3 points by cmt (1195) from Tolland, CT 3 years ago

The idea of planting unused spaces, even if just for ornamentals, is very intriguing.

[-] 1 points by karenpoore (902) 3 years ago

There is such a thing as edible landscapes too where you can grow food right in amongst your ornamentals and, of course, planting for the butterflies, hummingbirds and birds too!

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

and living walls

[-] 1 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

Ahhh,,,Why don’t we all just put flowers in our hair, hold hands and sing Kumbaya

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Another asinine reply from you.... just what I expected. Do you even know what a living wall is, Einstein?

[-] 1 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

Yep...Me again....I guess you can tell I was booted again...But that’s OK...And thanks for comparing me with Einstein...Nice complement ..Thank You Honey Bun…:)

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

"compliment"

I guess your response means that you don't know what a living wall is.

[-] 1 points by watson21 (5) 3 years ago

why don't you just tell us what this "living Wall " is. I assume a wall of plants?

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Yes.... basically. They are walls of vegetable and fruit plants that are grown indoors or outdoors to produce food. They are handy in urban spaces or where someone doesn't have sufficient land to plant a garden. They are similar to hydroponic systems and can be forms of hydroponics. And they can make your living spaces more beautiful (and cleaner) while producing food for you.

[-] 1 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

I know you and I will never agree.....But you might really enjoy this video.....It really is neat....Watch it and tell me what you think...You will like it...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c93_1320276196

[-] 1 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

Sorry Babe....Hate to disappoint you...But yes I do know...

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

"Ahhh,,,Why don’t we all just put flowers in our hair, hold hands and sing Kumbaya"

I couldn't tell from this response of yours.

[-] 2 points by knigitz (13) 3 years ago

Previous elections nationwide have been met with weak turnouts for years. With almost half of the voting-age population not even voting as such was the turnout in the 2008 presidential election.

I challenge you, the 99%, to Occupy Voting Booths.

If your goal is "returning the US back into the hands of its individual citizens", make sure the people that the 99% is voting into office isn't against those things. Otherwise, things get kind of counter-productive.

Occupy Voting Booths! Get organized and get the right people into office.

Please see mytimetovote.com for a breakdown of important election dates and other important information.

If you want to take back our country, take back our government!

[-] 1 points by CountryGirl (73) 3 years ago

1.) please create a new post if you're going off topic.

2.) Are there any "right" people to vote for on the ballots? I gave up on voting because there was never anyone on the ballot that wasn't "same old, same old." It got to be like voting for the same man in a differant coat.

[-] 2 points by hollatchaboy (55) 3 years ago

this is the type of stuff I can get down with, real action to make real change.

[-] 2 points by yasminec001 (584) 3 years ago

Is that Ketchup?

[-] 2 points by jph (2652) 3 years ago

permauclture

[-] 2 points by holdingcompany (5) 3 years ago

HEY!!! There's Ketchup!

Hi Ketchup! I'm your biggest fan in France!

[-] 2 points by teadrop (2) 3 years ago

Please take a look at what these people are doing http://opensourceecology.org/

[-] 2 points by locke (10) 3 years ago

http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski.html this is that same guy on TED.

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

I did that with my 1st wife

[-] 2 points by genanmer (822) 3 years ago

Love it!

(btw is that ketchup in the photo?) :)

[-] 2 points by SIJohnny (4) 3 years ago

The Occupy Wall Street World Anthem Protest Song: "WE THE PEOPLE THE 99%" UNITE! see youtube.com search: lifeschild1

[-] 2 points by Sgt1Barker (24) 3 years ago

How is it that Guerrilla Gardening makes the front page and nothing from Nov 5th makes it???... http://youtu.be/I0pX9LeE-g8 Shot by police with rubber bullet at Occupy Oakland on Nov 5th one of many things that needs to be mentioned.

[-] 1 points by daddyo14171 (48) 3 years ago

I believe it is referred to as "positive energy". There are many things not being presented; like denouncing organized vandalism in other cities and the violation of first amendment rights in the south.

[-] 2 points by karenpoore (902) 3 years ago

Well, I admit I purchase my soil from the Natural Gardener and I use raised beds, Earthboxes and large pots. I can tell you there is noting like eating the food that you grew right from the vine and plus wow, what a vitamin pill. If you cannot grow yourself then support your local farmer's market!

[-] 4 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

I totally agree. I have plants growing inside right now that are producing food. I plan to continue that throughout the winter and want to expand it.... in pots, via living walls, etc. I will plant a big garden outside in the spring.

The town where I live and work has a green fair every summer. I love it, because so many creative ideas are represented there, including growing food wherever you can put down soil and plant. This year, someone had an old pickup truck there, and they had the bed full of soil and were planting veggie plants in it. I've seen online that there are people that have made mobile greenhouses out of buses, trucks, etc. for this same purpose and to educate people on how to do it.

Seeds are cheap, and soil is abundant. Almost anyone can grow their own food (granted they have access to clean water and clean soil). I am open to donating soil and seeds for the poor to learn to grow their own food with.

A guy from my company started this great idea a few years ago. He started planting gardens on property my company owns where they have electric substations. He started out with just 3 gardens and now has over 10. People from the company, people from groups and organizations volunteer to help in the garden. Now, companies are donating seeds, herbs, tools, etc. to help this thing get bigger.

100% of the food and herbs generated from this project are donated to local food banks/pantries and soup kitchens. This is a great idea!

If I have an overload of food from my garden, I will donate it to local food banks.

[-] 3 points by Truthseeker99 (99) 3 years ago

I used my jeep cherokee as a portable greenhouse! One thing that I have never seen mentioned is how many edible plants grow wild even in the most inhospitable places and go completely unnoticed.

[-] 3 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Cool! I replied the same thing under another article in the past week.... how there are so many edible wild flowers and plants. People just don't know this and don't know how to find them. I took an herbal class that taught me about them. Most people call those edible wild flowers and plants "annoying weeds". Dandelion greens are a perfect example. They are very abundant in places that are green/humid and could be used for food, but people just mow them down and get annoyed with them. They are a great source of nutrients and medicinals.

[-] 3 points by Truthseeker99 (99) 3 years ago

They also have other uses. Did you know that you can make wine from the flowers and a coffee substitute from the roasted roots? Then there is chickweed, plantain, amaranth, chicory, etc. If a catastrophic event ever happens I can find enough food stuffs within a two mile radius to survive, and I live in a fairly urbanized suburb.

[-] 3 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Yes, I've heard of people (know some) who've made dandelion wine. I haven't heard of them used as a coffee substitute, though, That's interesting. I may try that.

I have some edible wildflower books. I will learn more about them in the spring and summer to be able to identify and then consume them.

[-] 3 points by Truthseeker99 (99) 3 years ago

About the coffee thing, it is an acquired taste. There are even some wild plants that are edible in autumn and winter too. It really urks me that companies like Scotts make a fortune trying to kill plants that are far more useful than grass! Not to mention all the phosphate fertilizers that run-off people's lawns into streams killing fish and causing algae blooms. People need to wake up and realize that we need a clean environment if our species is to survive long term.

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

I totally agree. Most people are more concerned with looks (superficial), though, and could care less about what's better for the environment and what actually produces food. They are sheeples.

[-] 0 points by JohnnyO (119) 3 years ago

Yes! Let's live in our cars and grow tomatoes in our trunks!

[-] 1 points by Truthseeker99 (99) 3 years ago

so who is living in their cars? I used my jeep to start seeds as it had lots of windows and was an enclosed space.

[-] 1 points by hortense (3) 3 years ago

Actually, I used to use my old Tarus wagon as a mobile green house. I'd hold flats of plants in the back until I could get them in the ground and they flourished there. No reason things couldn't be grown in a car. Not tomatoes, but shorter things like lettuces might work pretty well.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

These trolls have no clue and just make dumb ass statements all the time, and they think they're right.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

You really are a moron.

[-] 1 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

Now if that ain't the kettle calling the pot black...:)

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 3 years ago

Great to hear Swiss ... Karen Poore here that you have been talking to on the "Food Vendor" thread!

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Yes, I noticed!

[-] 2 points by Truthseeker99 (99) 3 years ago

One thing to be aware of is hyperaccumulation of toxins by certain species of plants. I have a degree on horticulture and did some research on phytoremediation. Plants like tomatoes accumulate zinc, which in large amounts can be toxic, so they should not be planted in certain brownfield sites. Other plants, some in the brassica family, also hyperaccumulate metals. Know the history of the site you are planting on. Plants that hyperaccumulate metals can be very toxic to people and animals.Otherwise it is a great idea. People need to have a connection to their food sources.

[-] 2 points by adamanto75 (9) 3 years ago

You can plant a cover crop of Datura (Jimson Weed) it leaches out all the heavy metals in the soil.

[-] 1 points by Truthseeker99 (99) 3 years ago

Datura is also a very dangerous plant. The seeds have an effect similar to LSD, but are also toxic, especially to the human liver.

[-] 1 points by adamanto75 (9) 3 years ago

Yes it is, which is why you should never eat it. Just grow it as a cover crop, and the effects are nothing like LSD it is more closely related to taking large doses of benadryl. Datura is a deliriant, and LSD is a psychedelic two completely different types of drugs

[-] 1 points by Joyce (375) 3 years ago

Should such land be cultivated for edible use, I strongly encourage that these folks involve the expertise of an environmental consultant who can provide phase I/II studies as needed and the associated soil sampling/testing. Volatile Organic Compounds (VOC's), leached substances from underground storage tanks, PCB's/asbestos from demolition work, and a host of other harmful material often occupies such sites.

[-] 1 points by Truthseeker99 (99) 3 years ago

Environmental consultants are an expensive option. The county extensions are a better first step. If remediation is necessary then seek an environmental consulting/remediation company. In small spaces environmental consulting is not a viable option. Using container gardening techniques is a better option then.

[-] 1 points by Joyce (375) 3 years ago

Just trying to help. I have an extensive background in these matters. I recognize that the consultants/studies/testing adds up quick......just did not want folks to react to this idea without recognizing the safe/prudent approach.m

[-] 1 points by Truthseeker99 (99) 3 years ago

I agree. When I saw the original post, the very first thought I had was the safety issue. After all we are talking about NYC! I grew up in a small town in PA that is a brownfield. Extremely high in zinc and lead. Many people are totally unaware of the toxicity of some "greenspaces". They think that if grass grows it must be safe.

[-] 1 points by Joyce (375) 3 years ago

Agree, All such land in Chicago is automatically categorized as Tier I TACO - Tiered Approach to Corrective Action Objectives

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

What is the best way to test soil for toxic chemicals and heavy metals? I'd like to test the soil in my yard where I will plant a garden.

[-] 1 points by MaerF0x0 (15) 3 years ago

There should be environmental consulting companies in your area. I find they mostly focus on construction projects so it may be big $$$.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

I hired one to test the level of lead-based paint in my house, and it wasn't that expensive.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

I will look. Thanks.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 3 years ago

eat it

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Does planting in raised beds help to avoid what you described, if clean soil is used?

[-] 1 points by Truthseeker99 (99) 3 years ago

Yes. The best way to be sure your soil is safe is to purchase a soil testing kit, the kind where you take samples and send them to your local county extensions. You can find the information on county extensions in the blue government pages of the phone book. Or go on google and search for county extension service. All 50 states have them. Container gardening is a good way to grow things if you live in the city. Even people living in small apartments can grow herbs, and vegetables, even some types of fruits as well.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

I am doing some container gardening right now myself and plan to expand that throughout the winter months. I also want to get into living walls (same concept as container gardening.... just different containers).

My aunt uses old kids' pools and other such containers for container and raised bed gardening. A friend is using an old bathtub.

Thanks a bunch for the info.

[-] 1 points by yoss33 (269) 3 years ago

Never underestimate the power of planting seeds.

[-] 1 points by jdchambers04 (1) from Pilot Point, TX 3 years ago

If anyone ever wondered why you would want target big banks needs to read the article well written article by Gary Rivlin "Which Bank is Worst". at the following link http://powerwall.msnbc.msn.com/politics/which-bank-is-the-worst-1705508.story

[-] 1 points by UPonLocal (309) 3 years ago

Fail at Farming.....and you will be Fighting...Col Aaron Bank - Founder of the Green Berets

I was once a commercial alfalfa and bean sprout grower...growing a few mushy ones in a jar is one thing...growing pounds of fresh nice sprouts that stay fresh after days..is another....if anyone wants the recipe/procedure, get hold of me...

Here some history...

The Viet Cong were issued rice......they boiled some, they ground some for flour...and they sprouted some of the rice also.....They would keep a burlap sack with some rice in it attached to their kit, and sprinkle water on it...while on the move...then when they had time, they took out some boiled rice, added some rice sprouts...nibble some rice cracker...and they had a balanced meal...

That is how you can live on rice...for those who did not already know

www.uponlocal.com the only actually working Direct Democracy site on the internet...

and yeah, I met Kalle in 87..in Van, at a backyard BBQ...on Fernie...at the house i was livin in with his buddies Troy and Luke..and he didn't like me then...

He was wearing rubber boots..and I showed him my Flippers...I am an American...go figure..

[-] 1 points by groobiecat2 (746) from Brattleboro, VT 3 years ago

YES! Let's hear it for the one state in the union that George Bush didn't visit! Home to Sen. Bernie Sanders, increasingly the conscience of an unconscionable congress. A place where it's highway billboards are illegal. A place where everyone grows their own food.

And in 2012, a place that will no longer have an aging nuclear power plant--no thanks to President Obama.

Peace!

www.groobiecat.blogspot.com

[-] 1 points by sassafrass (197) 3 years ago

Though I don't at all question the sincerity and good intentions of most people with a pro-Occupy sentiment who might be doing these this sort of "guerilla" agriculture (nor do I begrudge a love of gardening or interest in land use/sustainability issues and healthy food)--- I fear that for some others the unseen impetus behind some of this might be a hidden agenda, a specific and non-spontaneous goal in pushing this now, marked by an associated cluster of ideologies and propaganda (in a very literal sense of the word). Do a little research, read around other sites and blogs, connect a few dots and think critically, folks. Think long and hard and about the way this might play out long-term and scaled large and which socio-political-economic bracket in society might stand to gain most from trying to convince Americans to rearrange conceptions of private/public land and get them to be bound to working on small pieces of it and liking it, too. (Hint: they like private land for themselves and someone else working it.) I hope my fears are wrong, but they merit looking deeply into. And separate from that consideration: happy planting.

[-] 1 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

Well as long as my garbage disposal eats better than half the worlds population due to the blessings of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness afforded me here in America under the current system, no matter how flawed, you can bet your_ass I will vigorously oppose you.

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

Semivigorously b more apt

[-] 1 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

Say what? Can you just say what you mean? Maybe use real words?

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Do you think the movement will stop because of you?

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

Me surveydetector is flashin

[-] 1 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

Me alone? No..But you don't have to be an Einstein to know that...LOL

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

Lucky 4 u.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Well, Einstein, you keep acting as if you will bring it down yourself.

How does it feel to be a Koch tool/puppet?

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

No profanity

[-] 0 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

LOL....You're a funny girl...Are you a fat chick?

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

And that's your response? LOL

And, no, I'm not a "fat chick".

[-] 1 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

Not a fat chick...OK...That is a good start...If you are not ugly maybe we can go on a date...I like feisty babes…

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Yeah.... "OK".

[-] 1 points by tinyspark (1) 3 years ago

watch out for gmo seeds..definitely heritage,organic seeds are the way to go and the method ought to be permaculture...wouldn't it be great if public parks were turned into this...http://sustainable-farming.blogspot.com/2009/02/setting-up-permaculture-food-forest.html

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Great idea.... to turn some space in public parks into gardens.

[-] 1 points by kylet04 (1) from Jackson, MS 3 years ago

I completely agree with them about needing more farmers and reducing the harmful chemicals. However, it wouldn't be cost effective to the farmers or much of the 99%. Having people farm in a more natural way will likely result in higher costs and lower output of food. The less supply available will likely lead to higher food costs and increase the cost of living for a large majority of the 99%.

[-] 2 points by merridee (2) 3 years ago

Properly done organic agriculture does not result in lower output. Small sustainable farming is more labor intensive which will provide more jobs and will boost the economy. Healthy food grown on healthy land will produce healthy people and the health care (sick care) costs will go down. Currently tax dollars are paid to subsidies GMO corn and soybeans which are in the majority of the food like substances in the stores. If instead we subsidized sustainable local farms, good food would be more affordable. Under the current food system, the only winners are the big corporations.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Yep!!

[-] 1 points by jomojo (562) 3 years ago

These big corporations thrive on tax subsidies. Organic farmers have to deal with laws and PR created by GMO's AG friends. Corporate GMO farms foods, will be exposed, then consumers will create a market for imported food from non GMO countries. There's not much time left. Plan your meals, plant your seeds, or feed your children on GMO fa$t food.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Agreed.

[-] 2 points by KelseyRose (5) 3 years ago

I only make ten dollars an hour and I buy ONLY local, organic food. And I have enough money for everything else that I need. We simply learn to live with a budget that includes the honest price of food, not this fake price for fake food (by which I mean totally processed, modified and stripped of it's integrity to create healthy cell growth and function in our bodies) I support good people doing honest work, and I am healthy and nourished so that I don't end up needing to spend money on medical care or supplements, etc. In that way, I actually end up costing my government and fellow tax payers less... by not heading towards a need for health care I can't afford or welfare because I can't work. And lower output of food is fine considering the ridiculous amount that is overproduced to keep our grocery store shelves constantly full of dead food, and our dumpsters and landfills constantly brimming with dead food, encased in plastic and buried in the ground so that it cannot decompose fully and instead leeches into our waterways and causes a range of problems. We've lived off of the land in our communities before. The issue is that rather than good food and honest work, we want cheap, dead and imported food so that we can also have a whole bunch of disposable electronics, clothes, and other expensive and unnecessary gadgets that actually seem to do nothing for our wellness of body and mind, and even less for our connection to our own state of being alive and interested in our own lives.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Yes, and it's also about protecting the mega food manufacturers (the ones who oppose organic, local farming and self-reliance in growing one's own food).

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

Thats ok. The 99% will be better able to cope with costs with the additional resources they enjoy not having to pay cronyset prices.

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 3 years ago

"occupation of ill-used land to support the communities and ecosystems to which that land rightfully belongs."

And who decides what land is "ill-used"... and whose land is at risk for occupation claiming?

Is mine?

I'm all for gardening. But you can't just go out and take other people's land. Someone will get hurt, mark my words.

[-] 2 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

99% decide. U have nothing to fear but fairness itself. Peace.

[-] 0 points by l31sh0p (279) from Sand Fork, WV 3 years ago

Stepping on freedom and ideas is one thing; I don't recommend testing the limits of land boundary.

[-] 0 points by owstag (508) 3 years ago

It's wrong to plant stuff on private or public property without explicit consent. Certainly, 99% percent of the population does not endorse this sort of thing; you'd be lucky if 1% did. This is the sort of stuff that makes OWS look foolish to people.

[-] 1 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

"that makes OWS look foolish to people." You are to kind...I have other words for them....Anyone can be foolish at times...I am sure we all have at one time or another...These people go way beyond foolish. Mind numbing ignorant comes to mind.

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

Hey yer 3 now happy birthday

[-] 1 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

Gee ...Thanks...What did you get ME for my birthday?

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

Your place would make an ideal yoga studio for ows

[-] 0 points by independentmind (227) 3 years ago

The idea in and of itself is not foolish.

The execution might be.

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

No executions. We re nonviolent

[-] 1 points by owstag (508) 3 years ago

What if somebody decided they thought your shirt would be put to better use as something to blow their nose in? Or as a canvas to paint on? The point is it's obnoxious, arrogant, and disrespectful to plant stuff on public or private property without explicit consent. It's not 'progressive' or 'noble'. Who are you to tell someone else that their property could used better or to impose your ideas about how to best use a public space?

Incidentally, it's also unsanitary and dangerous to eat food planted in some public place you know nothing about. These 'guerilla gardeners' talk about 'eating healthier'? Lol. You have no idea what's in that ground. It's not farm grade soil.

I'm not trying to be mean here, but this is seriously stupid.

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 3 years ago

Not what I meant. I meant, encouraging people to become self sufficient and grow their own produce in their back yards is not a bad idea. Educating people on organic produce is not a bad idea.

The points you brought up are why it is a bad idea, hence, my reference to the execution of the ideas being foolish.

And what the nutter below me is even talking about is beyond me...

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

I think it will be a lot less than 99% who decide. Somewhere in all of this, I can only hope that there is a 50% with enough common sense left to see a picture much larger than you all paint.

Are you advocating for the people of Arizona. Those vegetables take a lot of water - aren't we against more storage dams in this country. What about those of us living in an area with a very short growing season - you going to send us our fair share of all that bounty?? Just asking??

I grew up on a farm. I am not saying that it cannot be done and I am not trying to discourage anyone from doing it. Go for it if you have the time, the patience, the interest, and the stamina to even try.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

There already are a lot of factory farms and crops in Arizona.... fed by massive irrigation. In Southern Arizona, south of Tucson, there are crops of cotton, avocados, and all kinds of other things that are not native to Arizona.

I'd rather see that irrigation going to people who plant their own gardens for food.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

And deducting from your post, raise their own sheep for wool to.make their clothes, cows to provide milk for infants (yeah I know).

As I posted earlier, I am all for your position - however, we have 7B people in the mix now and this probably represents a number extremely far above the sustainability position most people occupy.

Without that irrigation, without superior crop varieties and, as you call them, factory farms, there is probably no way that this earth could support that number of people. Starvation would become the norm.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

"And deducting from your post, raise their own sheep for wool to.make their clothes, cows to provide milk for infants (yeah I know)."

No, I didn't say that. I was talking about growing food.

Again, people can learn to be more independent via container gardening if they don't have space or they don't live in the right climate. All it takes is a little water each day or even every 2-3 days to grow fruits and veggies.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

And the inclination to do so. Maybe working 8-10 hours a day with a 2 hour compute overrides living more independently for some. We can all learn.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

Thank you, you point is well made and taken.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Yep. I think people need to be more creative about how to do things to be more independent. We get too caught up into traditional ways of doing things. We need to break out from that and learn to be more independent.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

And what is more traditional than growing your own food?? Isn't this more about a generation (or 2) gap than anything. You are calling on people to get away from traditional ways of doing things by going back to the traditional ways of doing things. Looking at from the perspective of an elder of this society.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

It's really not that hard growing enough food for yourself. You don't need a farm to do it, either. My family grew a garden when I was growing up, and it didn't require a ton of work, and it produced so much that we gave a lot of it away. People can grow food indoors in containers. People just need to be open-minded and creative and just a little ambitious.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

This was not my experience growing up. We were constantly battling the weeds and vines that would take over, cultivating the soil (aeration if you will), avoiding infestations of pests that could wipe the whole thing out in a matter of days, all with one eye on the sky hoping for the right rainfall, the lack of wind or hail, and praying that an early frost wouldn't take the hole thing down

THEN - Mom and the kids spent endless hours harvesting, preparing, cannning, drying, pickeling etc etc etc. I have been trying to recall the exact number, but I think that Mom had to can a minimum of 1000 jars of food each year for a family of four, not including animal products obtained on an as needed absis.

It was really a great life and a lot of fun when I look back at it. Then I realize that 300 million gardens to feed just the people in America will probably result in the death of a lot of people who depend on America to "feed the world"

It becomes a great idea for one, two, hundreds, etc. but we are dealing with 7B.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Our experience was different. Our yard was nothing but sand (lived close to a lake), and everyone told us nothing would grow there. Everything flourished, except for the corn. I don't remember pests being a problem, and we lived in a rural area with lots of deer, rabbits, and other animals around. I don't remember insects being a problem. We never used any pesticides or chemicals of any kind.

My aunt grows a huge garden every year in that same area. It flourishes, too. She has to give away food, because it produces so much.

People can help themselves by learning to grow food in containers indoors, though. There is a lot of development in urban gardening going on.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

And I am all for everything that you say - on the scale that you imply it to be applied. What I cannot comprehend is the various posts that would divide all land up to be used by individuals for their own gardens or whatever - there is just no way.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Oh, yeah.... no, I'm not advocating that. I mean that people who have land should learn to grow their own food on it, and those who don't should learn container gardening. In terms of the irrigation, I meant that I'd rather see that amount of water going to people who grow their own gardens and raise their own animals, rather than it going to big food manufacturers.

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

Better odds than the 100% probability of more corrupt cronyism. The odds r vastly more in favor of 99%. All in. Calling the cronies hands. Globally united peacefully

[-] 1 points by tomhighmowingseedscom (5) 3 years ago

Go Sterling, go Vermont, go OWS. Wall Street can't touch the returns of a tomato seed, healthily growing in good soil. One seed will make 10,000 in 6 months. We are psyched to have High Mowing seeds planted in NYC! - Tom from High Mowing

[-] 1 points by bbgt08 (1) 3 years ago

So Amish is a good example!

[-] 1 points by screwtheman (122) 3 years ago

you should poop on your gardens. You know to help it grow.

[-] 1 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

They are to busy "pooping" on Police cars for that

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

Ive just completed a gigantic contribution to the front lawn then if what yer saying is true

[-] 1 points by Thisisthetime (200) from Kahlotus, WA 3 years ago

I agree completely. All empty spaces should be bombed with vegetables, fruits and flowers. Mother Earth. Fair-ness.

[-] 0 points by NonParticipant (151) 3 years ago

Serious question. When you say all empty spaces, are you including privately owned land?

[-] 1 points by Thisisthetime (200) from Kahlotus, WA 3 years ago

I will have to contact my lawyer when he gets through golfing at one of his country clubs. I am sure their are some laws that could get me in big trouble if I spread a handful of vegetable seeds on some barren "private property". I am being cautious, because I have heard that guerrilla gardening is a "gateway" activity that leads to higher risk behaviors. wink-wink.

[-] 1 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

Yes they are.....Any of them come on my land .... I'll leave it at that...You can guess the rest.

[-] 0 points by NonParticipant (151) 3 years ago

I understand. I think we are from the same area of the country, guessing by your name.

[-] 1 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

Texas

[-] 0 points by NonParticipant (151) 3 years ago

Yup. Me too.

[-] 1 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

Good deal....I think I like you....LOL

[-] 0 points by NonParticipant (151) 3 years ago

:>)

[-] 1 points by Timbrewolf1 (2) 3 years ago

Don't forget the chickens, goats and sheep! They are essential to healthy land and soil.

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

A petting zoo would be ideal at occupy dc wouldnt it b nice if we really did enjoy the right to peacefully protest? Safe enough we could take our dogs?

[-] 1 points by bigbangbilly (594) 3 years ago

Too bad that genetic engineering technology is in the hands of the 1% instead of everyone.

[-] 1 points by bigbangbilly (594) 3 years ago

If the soil contain too much metal or toxins for edible plants should we grow something non edible?

[-] 2 points by adamanto75 (9) 3 years ago

Use Jimson Weed as a cover crop it leaches out heavy metals of all kinds

[-] -2 points by JohnnyO (119) 3 years ago

Most guerrilla farmers are growing weed to supply to the massive number of OWSers that smoke it.

[-] 2 points by invient (360) 3 years ago

Good, weed cuts lung cancer tumor size in half... see, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070417193338.htm

Or you can stay ignorant.

[-] -2 points by JohnnyO (119) 3 years ago

Weed makes you stupid. You're exhibit A

[-] 1 points by invient (360) 3 years ago

I wont stoop to your level of ad hominems... I am sorry for you.

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

U cant stoop any further than u are anyways. Support 99% over crony

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?

[-] 2 points by invient (360) 3 years ago

I wouldnt know :P

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

I know. I was replying to JohnnyO.

[-] 1 points by LoneStar3 (45) 3 years ago

You would know....

[-] 1 points by samplocracry (1) 3 years ago

it's about time we moved away from the chemical heavy agri-business model....

heres a blog i've just set up on direct democracy solutions for OWS if anybody is interested: samplocracy.wordpress.com

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by zoe (67) 3 years ago

please keep comments on topic.

[-] 0 points by KnowledgeableFellow (471) 3 years ago

Did I get this right? An objective is to plant and grow food on both public and private property that you don't own?

[-] 0 points by Dio1313 (69) 3 years ago

Attention all OWS please go to liveleak.com and watch video of violent protest in Oakland. By occupying you give opportunities for these idiots to blend in with you and act like asses. I am not sure what, if anything you can do about it, but these idiots definitely hurt your cause. Do what you can to keep these dumbasses away from you.

[-] 0 points by velveeta (230) 3 years ago

this article makes you look kind of lame given that you displaced the green market

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 3 years ago

I wish this movement didn't use words like Occupy or Guerrilla to define itself. I know it's a planned revolution, but still I find it bad for marketing.

[-] 0 points by neighbor (2) 3 years ago

Wouldn't it be great if there was a farmer's market in Zuccotti Park where people who live near there could find locally sourced fruits and vegetables?

Oh right - there was one and it was forced to move because of the protests. Now - instead of a local farmers market, people burned fossil fuels to drive down from from Vermont to plant a few seeds in poisoned downtown soil. What a great improvement!

http://culture.wnyc.org/articles/features/2011/oct/25/zuccotti-park-greenmarket-relocates/

[-] 2 points by ramous (765) from Wabash, IN 3 years ago

did not know that.

[-] 1 points by zucnei (103) 3 years ago

While this may seem like a small thing - I would not underestimate the impact of events like this on community opinion. The local community board fought to get a farmer's market in Zuccotti after the old market was lost (it was in the old World Trade Center Plaza). This community - with democratically elected officials - pushed for this farmer's market, and we are now being lectured on sustainability by the people responsible for its loss, and non-local farmers who drove 7 or 8 hours to get here.

OWS could have supported sustainability yesterday by using its massive budget to buy from the farmer's market that has moved because of the protests. Instead we get this - and that is part of why community opinion has been veering in the negative direction lately.

[-] 1 points by groobiecat2 (746) from Brattleboro, VT 3 years ago

I agree that OWS should do something to help the farmer's market. I completely disagree that somehow people coming from Vermont are the cause. That's complete nonsense.

"This community - with democratically elected officials - pushed for this farmer's market, and we are now being lectured on sustainability by the people responsible for its loss, and non-local farmers who drove 7 or 8 hours to get here."

No. No one's being "lectured" here. These people have every right to come here. You're pissed about the farmer's market, fine, but don't conflate the two. Do you complain about people coming from Florida? From California? From any other state? No? Then don't complain about people coming from Vermont. As it turns out, people might actually learn some things that can help build sustainability beyond Zucotti Park--which is really what this is about.

I agree that OWS needs to be concerned about the community, and I think they've done a pretty good job overall. It's not perfect. Nothing is. But blaming people for "driving 7 or 8 hours" who are trying to teach others how to grow food--actually a very good thing--is complete b.s. Unless, of course, you don't drive at all or use fossil fuels to get anywhere ever.

Peace.

Groobiecat

[-] 1 points by groobiecat2 (746) from Brattleboro, VT 3 years ago

Wait, so, you don't use fossil fuels to go and work with other people? You don't drive a car anywhere? You walk everywhere? You don't fly on a plane to go on vacations or visit family or for work? Dude, that's so awesome! You totally rock! Oh, wait, what's that you say? You actually do use fossil fuels to get around--and wait, no, for pleasure? You use transportation even when you're not teaching or working with others? Huh. Sorry, my bad. For a moment there, I thought you were actually better than the people from Vermont who, apparently, aren't the ones who pushed out the farmer's market, per se, but are down trying to help people there learn to grow food.

And btw, it's not just about planting a few seeds in some "poisoned" soil (and you know it's poisoned because, well, just because) it's about sharing information about how to grow food. If, in fact, a local farmer's market moved because of the protests, that sucks, but the movement is kind of important. It's not perfect, but they are still around, albeit 6 blocks away.

Sorry for the snark, "neighbor," but your logic on fossil fuels is flawed and you can walk 6 blocks to the market, it won't kill you. People have to adjust, and if you're sleeping in your bed tonight, all comfy and cozy, you're doing better than most of the folks in Zucotti Park.

Peace.

www.groobiecat.blogspot.com

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 3 years ago

Something to add to this.

Most people living in a rural and suburban environment actually use more fossil fuels than those living in cities. Although even in cities the primary source of electricity comes from fossil fuels.

But if you live in a dense urban environment you could walk to most locations. Plus the mixed zone use of buildings allow residents to access most necessities by walking, biking, or utilizing mass transportation.

Per resident, Manhattan believe it or not is the greenest city in America. And it is due specifically to its population density.

[-] 2 points by groobiecat2 (746) from Brattleboro, VT 3 years ago

I agree that more densely packed humans create efficiencies, but just the taxi cabs and buses generate massive amounts of pollution. And of course, there are other efficiencies that should be taken into account, as well, such as hybrid and 90% clean diesel fuel vehicles, like the one I drive. But the metric in in your comparison is skewed. Vermont, for example, has about .65 million people. As a "state," we generate far less pollution that New York state, including NYC, but many orders of magnitude--even though on a per person basis, New Yorkers may be more efficient overall.

But this isn't really the main point. Going down this illogical road of "who is greener" 'makes no sense and detracts from the main point: a few idealistic kids from Vermont to help others learn how to garden in winter? And that's somehow problematic? To follow this to its logical conclusion, should we ban anyone who tries to come to ZP who doesn't live in NJ or NY already? It's pretty absurd. Also, if you take their overall carbon footprint into account, I'll bet you those Vermont kids probably more than make up for their trip down through using sustainable practices like growing their own food--and eating seasonally, rather than eating whatever can be "trucked in" to the city.

The point, however, is that people who use transportation--and I'm guessing they car-pooled, are coming down to help others learn about sustainable farming. The entire argument is a red herring, and a little silly...

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 3 years ago

I wasn't trying to detract from your earlier statement.

I'm just pointing out something many conservative nature lovers may not realize. Population density inherently leads to more sustainable lifestyles unconsciously.

The congestion caused by commuters (from suburbs), taxis and buses lead residents to weigh their option of arriving late to a destination or simply walking/ taking the subway. The congestion itself has a green effect because if automobiles had more leisurely routes and easier parking more commuters would use cars over mass transit and more residents would own vehicles.

For this reason I agree. People within urban environments would benefit greatly from sustainable farming techniques if it were adopted. If vertical farming were incorporated into the city the pollution caused by 'trucking in food' would be cut tremendously.

Point is: The most sustainable lifestyle isn't found moving away from a city out into nature (sprawl). Rather it's found taking nature and moving it into high density cities.

[-] 1 points by groobiecat2 (746) from Brattleboro, VT 3 years ago

Agreed on all points. True, sustainable planning that removes the need for massive transport--and associated burning of fossil fuels--is the ultimate goal. And yes, that definitely means increasing population density.

Well stated.

Peace.

[-] 0 points by zucnei (103) 3 years ago

1) I am not "blaming" the people from Vermont and never made that connection. I am blaming the organizers of OWS for not doing enough to support community efforts that already exist, of which there are many programs. People in lower manhattan have heard of seeds before.

2) I do not use a car - I walk and use public transportation.

3) One tangible sustainability effort, the farmer's market, has been HARMED by OWS. OWS could have used its resources to support local farming by supporting the market, or one of the many local initiatives that connect neighborhood residents to farms in the area. I do walk to the market and their business continues to suffer - the price of the tank of gas from Vermont would have made a difference to them.

4) I know its poisoned because I live one block away and have seen it being maintained. I would never eat anything planted there, ever.

5) When I say that the community support is waning I am speaking as someone who has attended numerous community board meetings and was initially a voice of support at those meetings. Local support is much lower than it used to be, because legitimate criticism by people who know the area is often treated with attitude or passing the buck. Part of localism means respecting the opinions of locals, and we are the ones who will have to live with the local consequences.

[-] 1 points by groobiecat2 (746) from Brattleboro, VT 3 years ago

1) You definitely cast aspersions on people from Vermont who are only trying to help. Don't vilify them. re: OWS and not doing enough for community support, you may have a point, and you should work with OWS to fix that--since you live there.

2) Congratulations, that's awesome. Do you ever fly? Or take any form of fossil fuel powered transportation? Do you use electricity--ever? See where I'm going here? Being angry at people who use transportation to work with others on sustainable practices--especially if they're not widely known as they are here in beautiful Vermont--seems to me to be unrealistic and frankly, unfair. Unless you never travel outside of New York for anything ever, you really have no logical ground to stand on. And that's just basic logic...

3) I acknowledge this, and it sucks. But again, nothing is perfect, and there is a community relations working group here: http://www.nycga.net/groups/community-relations/ --why not get involved with them?

4) Okay, perhaps you could work with them about that, rather than ranting about it on this board? And perhaps people could build box gardens, instead?

5) Agreed that local support is extremely important. Again, more valid points, but I suggest joining the community relations group and to make your voice louder.

This is probably a long-term occupation. It's imperfect--revolution always is. You raise some valid points, but rather than attack and excoriate, perhaps work with OWS to address the issues you raise? I think you'd find a receptive audience...

[-] 0 points by zucnei (103) 3 years ago

This is not about whether or not some people fly, or the helpfulness of people from Vermont - I love Vermont fwiw. I only point out that they were from Vermont to illustrate that they did not use available local resources. Its about circumventing local efforts to address these same issues, in some cases harming those efforts, and having better community relations.

I am not "ranting" I am bringing up a point on a forum that others read. I and others have brought this and other issues up with OWS several times - I have typically been told to either talk to someone else or that someone would bring up my issues at a GA meeting. I have yet to have a good neighbor email actually responded to (there is an official good neighbor address on signs around the park).

There is a community relations group I already use - my local community board whose last meeting no one at OWS showed up to - and I see no reason why the burden should be put on me to interact with a brand new, extra legal bureaucracy.

At some point we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I support many of the aims of OWS, some more than others, probably like everyone here. I not longer feel that turning the somewhat random space that is Zuccotti into a tent city is helping and that it may hurt in the long run. Its is a place of minimal significance to the financial world and is in a neighborhood that is far more residential, and mixed income, than OWS seemed to realize initially.

There are many people who feel the same way I do - that park was fought for by the community long before I got here when others tried to turn it into a parking lot, bus depot, or storage site. New people came into my community and are occupying the park that I use - the burden is not on me to repair how that has been handled.

And, by the way, I have plenty of ground to stand on - there is a difference between using fossil fuels at all and using them needlessly when there were are many available alternatives within walking distance - like using pizza boxes instead of buying new signs. Less fossil fuel equals less greenhouse gas. Your claim rests on the sustainability lesson being worth that expenditure - I completely disagree as local alternatives were available. Still, my point is largely the metaphor - giving sustainability classes when a local, grassroots effort to help sustainability has been harmed that could have been helped.

[-] 1 points by sassafrass (197) 3 years ago

zucnei: again, I urge you to keep bringing up all your concerns with everyone you know. I am trying to piece together what this is really all about. I wrote this just now a little lower down on this thread: /// This whole big discussion here is a fake quibble designed to get Americans paranoid about losing all control over their property rights under the U.N. "Agenda 21" calling for the need for countries to face long-term land-use and sustainability issues. The right wing is obsessed with fixed, immobile property rights, thus it regards any adherence to U.N. as "socialist". Thus it seeks to create the same fears in the whole populace. Look things up, do some homework. That's what this is all about. That's also behind the fashionable "anti-war" stance they've adopted (they don't want to be bound to U.N.), and the hatred of Monsanto and the FDA. For them, this isn't about organic gardening, it's about not wanting their land rights to have to be accountable to ecological considerations that affect the whole world. ///

[-] 1 points by groobiecat2 (746) from Brattleboro, VT 3 years ago

re: not using "local resources." You have a point, but does it have to be either/or? It certainly should be both, but you imply that there's some sort of master plan at work there regarding "importing resources to help us understand sustainability." I don't believe there was one. I could be wrong. Or, perhaps, there should be one. But that's for people like you to find out and determine, I think. You're passionate about it; get involved and if you're running into opposition or indifference, perhaps report on that?

re: "bringing up points." You were told to bring this up at GA. Okay. Did you? Email is not what this is about, I don't think. But you do sound frustrated, so why not raise those frustrations by getting a place in stack at the next GA?? Or, what about the group I suggested that you join? You didn't acknowledge that, and it's what OWS uses to help focus the issues before it. Why not use the systems in place??

"There is a community relations group I already use - my local community board whose last meeting no one at OWS showed up to - and I see no reason why the burden should be put on me to interact with a brand new, extra legal bureaucracy."

Ahh, OK, I see. You think it's up to OWS--and you may well be right, but this is one of many many issues that the group faces. I was referring not to your community relations group, but to the OWS Community Relations group. (See link on previous post.)

Again, you raise lots of good points, but why not try to work with the group rather than send emails that you're hoping get returned. It's still working out its structure. And it's easy for me to say--I'll admit that, I live in lovely Vermont with lots of trees, so I don't have the urban issues you've raised here to sort out. So, I do hear you, but you can also take action and get involved. It sounds like you're not alone. And rather than describe your frustrations here (not ranting, understood), you can actually directly impact what happens in your community.

Honestly, I think that someone who knows the issues should go to the group--online, if that's your preferred method--and let people there know how you feel. Perhaps descrive some solutions that could be considered for, say, having OWS buy food from the farmer's market 6 blocks away. Or perhaps introduce the idea that some of the vendors actually come to ZP to sell their wares? Just some ideas, but it sounds like you might have some of your own. And since there are many people who feel the way you do, you could, i would think, create a bit of a sub-group of like-minded individuals within the Community Relations forum on OWS. Everyone is, literally, invited, but people who live in the area would be especially useful.

People like you.

But if you would rather be passive aggressive about it and state plainly that "the burden is not on me to repair how this is handled" rather than to take an active role in helping repair, that's your call. I think it's misplaced, but whatever. Seems it's the least you could try to do considering what OWS is trying to do. But that's just me.

As for fossil fuels, okay, enough. Grand. You live in the best city in the world and take public transportation. You fly, right? Do you ever fly? What do you want to bet that more people in lower Manhattan fly every year than the entire state of Vermont? Do you know how much filth that belches into the air? So, really, come down off that box unless you're going to put the carbon footprint into the mix. It just doesn't wash, otherwise.

As for a group of kids coming down from Vermont in a car to help others learn? Think of it this way: they teach some people how to eat seasonally and they teach others how to do the same. This will actually help decrease peoples' reliance on fossil fuels--including the food delivery fossil fuel supply chain, on which people who walk around NYC use quite a bit, I understand.

And btw, it's not just local or resources from other states. It's both. Sorry, but you seem somewhat xenophobic. But hey, I'm curious: you say you know about Vermont, but how would you know? I mean, unless you hiked up here. I mean, you don't use transportation other than your feet right? :D No matter; we'll be here in Vermont when you New Yorkers come up for a visit to welcome you with open arms. Erm, and again, you are going to hike up here, right?? ;)

Peace.

Groobiecat www.groobiecat.blogspot.com

[-] 2 points by Xiej (3) from South Burlington, VT 3 years ago

I live in VT. Very green state, each county has numerous farmers markets and co-ops. VT is severely locally driven

[-] 1 points by groobiecat2 (746) from Brattleboro, VT 3 years ago

Definitely with you on that. Cheers.

[-] 0 points by zucnei (103) 3 years ago

I have brought it up with OWS, online, via email, on the phone and in person. I and others have described to their community relations group many of the points raised in this email and others.

My community board has negotiated with them on this and other issues since day one and I attend those meetings. I am writing on this board so some people may find out that this is going on. I do take an active role - just because I wrote this message does not mean I have not done anything else. I am frustrated for good reasons - don't shoot the messenger.

You got me - I used fossil fuels to get to Vermont, you are an amazing logician, I had never realized that before today. I try not to use them when another clear alternative exists, as was the case here.

[-] 1 points by groobiecat2 (746) from Brattleboro, VT 3 years ago

You raise many valid points, as I've stated. And definitely, the community should be considered one of the highest priorities of OWS. It can't possibly be easy. Keep at it, though, and I'm sure your voice--and your fellow neighbors' voices--will be heard.

And i'm just ribbing you about fossil fuels. They're a nasty habit that should be broken. But the people from Vermont--including those kids, I'll bet--tend to take their carbon footprints very seriously...

Peace.

[-] 1 points by sassafrass (197) 3 years ago

zucnei-- I agree with you that something is weird about this (and the pushy patronizing tone that often goes with it). This is cut and pasted from what I wrote lower down on this thread, please think about it and discuss it with others you know who may be skeptical about what is going on: //// Though I don't at all question the sincerity and good intentions of most people with a pro-Occupy sentiment who might be doing these this sort of "guerilla" agriculture (nor do I begrudge a love of gardening or interest in land use/sustainability issues and healthy food)--- I fear that for some others the unseen impetus behind some of this might be a hidden agenda, a specific and non-spontaneous goal in pushing this now, marked by an associated cluster of ideologies and propaganda (in a very literal sense of the word). Do a little research, read around other sites and blogs, connect a few dots and think critically, folks. Think long and hard and about the way this might play out long-term and scaled large and which socio-political-economic bracket in society might stand to gain most from trying to convince Americans to rearrange conceptions of private/public land and get them to be bound to working on small pieces of it and liking it, too. (Hint: they like private land for themselves and someone else working it.) I hope my fears are wrong, but they merit looking deeply into. /////

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

Thank you for sharing your wisdom in your post. I grew up with a great respect for the land - that respect was only a step behind respect for the people on the land. The enterplay of the socio-political-economic was something that was always of concern to my grandparents and parents. There was continuous discussion of clearning of the land, or crop rotation, of contour farming, and later of corporate farms, corporate hog and cattle raising, ground water pollution, soil erosion, and on and on. Your comments merit very deep consideration and your insights are applauded. Thank you

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

Zucnei - I had written a reply in support of you and your position but I erased it and this is the rewrite. A had included a reference to "listen to your mother" and then I read the reply from sassafrass about the "pushy patronizing tone" and felt that his/her post was much more appropriate.

Hang in there zucnei, I think that it is the responsibility of the individual to determine what is their responsibility and action in any valid and nobel cause. We each do what we can where we are. The further away from the action - the less valid the advice.

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

Victims ALL. Can't we get past the juvenile finger pointing, the "I'm more important than you" attitudes. Just read your post groobiecat2. Some of your statements, in my humble opinion, are downright mind numbing. Did you ever consider:

  1. How did a people living in the cradle of this countrys' very being lose a knowledge so fundamental as growing plants (food)? Even today that information is in every library and all over the internet.
  2. And how do you evaluate the importance of growing food or sharing in a farmers' market - WITH - a movement that is" kind of important".
  3. And since when does sleeping in a bed tonight, make sleeping in a city park less important. If sleeping in a park and therefore, proving that you cause has merit by crying VICTIM, I can introduce you to a lot of Americans that have been sleeping in a park a lot longer than those in Zuccotti, suffering a lot more, and in many ways are the silent protest of the need for a much greater cause than the ideas floating around here.

Trying to decide where I stand on all of this and am being pushed in the opposite direction ever time I sign on to this great wisdom site.

[-] 1 points by groobiecat2 (746) from Brattleboro, VT 3 years ago

Sorry, but it's hard to know what you're going on about--you didn't address the specifics of what I said.

1) "cradle of being"? Growing plants in the winter is fundamental knowledge? Really. The point isn't that something is "available"--if that's your argument, there's no need for classes or training or any kind of human to human interaction--because it's "all available in a library or online." People help each other learn all the time. It's not radical. It's just something people tend to do. You have no argument. You're just ranting. Sorry.

2) No idea what your'e saying here. It's more yelling.

3) My point was that if it's somewhat inconvenient to walk 6 blocks to go to the farmer's market, then that might be a price worth paying considering the privation and hardship that the occupiers of ZP are enduring. And they're doing it not because they're victimes, dude, they're doing it because they're brave enough to stand up and say enough. And if they're lucky enough to sleep in their beds while the brave souls of OWS are shivering in tents to try to change the country, well, they're very lucky indeed.

Happy to engage in discussion, but you're just ranting.

Peace.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

And I am going to crawl back into my hole. You sure know how to do that to a person. I am sorry, very sorry. Please excuse me. I am sorry.

[-] 0 points by JohnnyO (119) 3 years ago

Poppies will put them to sleep.....

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by NonParticipant (151) 3 years ago

Are you destroying what is already planted by Brookfield or the city to do this???? I would think this would be grounds (pun intended) for removing you if you are now tearing up the park. And where does this stop? Will you be coming for my land next, because you say I should not be able to own it, that the earth owns it? Just try.

[-] 4 points by rosewood (543) 3 years ago

Seems you like the system just as it is. OWS, your fellow Americans are not the enemy. It's strange how some people can look at these good people and project their own evil and insanity onto them. You remind me, of the people who shot the unarmed youth at Kent State decades ago. The 60 + trillion stolen from the working classes, the theft of foreclosed homes without documents; the offshoring of jobs, and financial coup d'etat in Ameica was not done by the people of OWS. What's wrong with you ?

[-] 0 points by NonParticipant (151) 3 years ago

I do like the system as it is. OWS IS my enemy if you are going to say I have to live in a PEOPLE's commune and share the land my family has worked hard to own and eat food grown in a flowerbed. I wish you no harm, but I will not live like you. Wow, I don't want you to tear up flowerbeds that don't belong to you and I'm like the National Guard who were at Kent State. Over-react much?

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

You have a pool?

[-] 0 points by NonParticipant (151) 3 years ago

like for swimming?

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

The park belongs to THE PEOPLE (public park). Planting food is tearing up the park?

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

It is if you think your rights exceed those of the grass and tree lovers.

[-] 0 points by l31sh0p (279) from Sand Fork, WV 3 years ago

It's not a public park.

[-] 0 points by jayp74 (195) 3 years ago

The park belongs to Brookfield. They get to decide what happens on their property. It's called property rights. Look it up.

Does your tent or sleeping bag belong to the people? Can I take that tonight? What about the clothes on your back? Geeez.

[-] 3 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

No, it doesn't belong to Brookfield. It's a public park on private land, and in the agreement when he bought it (the agreement between him and NYC), he is required to have the park open to the public 24/7, even though it's on his land. In order to build a building that large at the time it was built (at that time, the City of New York did not allow buildings of that size to be erected), he had to agree to reserve some of the space for a public park to be used by THE PEOPLE, 24/7.

Get a clue, and look it up.

[-] 0 points by NonParticipant (151) 3 years ago

Get a clue and look it up. Brookfield is a company, not a man. A company that PRIVATELY owns Zuccotti Park. This is from the press release when Zuccotti Park was opened in 2006. Notice it says its park, meaning it belongs to Brookfield, the company, not the man.

"Shaded below the 54 newly planted honey-locust trees, Brookfield Properties cut the ceremonial ribbon on its renovated park at Broadway and Liberty Streets on June 1st, after just 10 months under construction. Formerly known as Liberty Plaza Park, it was renamed Zuccotti Park in honor of U.S. Chairman of Brookfield Properties John Zuccotti"

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

It's a PUBLIC park on private land... meaning the PEOPLE'S park.

[-] 0 points by NonParticipant (151) 3 years ago

And it doesn't HAVE to be open to the public 24/7. Directly from the POPS website:

Nighttime closing of public plazas is permitted via City Planning Commission authorization. Hours of access: Where a nighttime closing has been authorized, the minimum hours of public access are generally:

April 15 to October 31:          7:00 am – 10:00 pm
November 1 to April 14:        7:00 am – 8:00 pm
[-] 3 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

99% intend to use it more than usual this season. Occupycityhall

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Actually, it does have to be open 24 hours a day.

[-] 0 points by NonParticipant (151) 3 years ago

No. it.does. not. The POPS website clearly states that the City Planning Commission can set nighttime closings. What part of "nighttime closing of public plazas is permitted" do you not understand?

[-] 0 points by sdcheung (76) 3 years ago

Screw Property Rights. Stupid Capitalist idea

[-] 0 points by jayp74 (195) 3 years ago

Capitalism: The greatest system ever devised.

I have one life and about 50 years in which I will earn the money to buy what becomes mine. I work my ass off to get everything I have. It belongs to me, not you. That's property rights, and it's a fundamental human right. If you don't get that, you're really fucked up!

[-] 0 points by sdcheung (76) 3 years ago

it belongs to us all..Redistribution of wealth!

[-] 0 points by jayp74 (195) 3 years ago

Fuck you. What I earn is mine.

[-] 0 points by sdcheung (76) 3 years ago

What U earn belongs to the 99%

[-] 0 points by jayp74 (195) 3 years ago

Right on... free healthcare for all, everything belongs to everybody, kill the wealthy and take all their money!

You are a genius. Why didn't I see that before?

[-] 0 points by sdcheung (76) 3 years ago

yes whack the rich....Mafia style.

[-] 1 points by sassafrass (197) 3 years ago

This whole big discussion here is a fake quibble designed to get Americans paranoid about losing all control over their property rights under the U.N. "Agenda 21" calling for the need for countries to face long-term land-use and sustainability issues. The right wing is obsessed with fixed, immobile property rights, thus it regards any adherence to U.N. as "socialist". Thus it seeks to create the same fears in the whole populace. Look things up, do some homework. That's what this is all about. That's also behind the fashionable "anti-war" stance they've adopted (they don't want to be bound to U.N.), and the hatred of Monsanto and the FDA. For them, this isn't about organic gardening, it's about not wanting their land rights to have to be accountable to ecological considerations that affect the whole world.

[-] -1 points by NonParticipant (151) 3 years ago

YES, I call that tearing up the park if the City or Brookfield has paid money to landscape the area. I work in a building owned by Brookfield and the area is always very cared for, with lots of flowers, trees & plants costing thousands of dollars. It is not the PEOPLE's right to go in and take over whatever you decide you want. Tearing up property is not peaceably protesting. If so, I'm coming to take away your __ (fill in the blank with whatever you own) and tearing it up or using it as I see fit.

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Brookfield doesn't own the park, regardless of the amount of money he spends on it. If you're working on a different property that Brookfield owns (one that doesn't contain a public park within it), your comparison is inaccurate.

[-] -2 points by NonParticipant (151) 3 years ago

Zucotti Park is a PRIVATELY OWNED public space. PRIVATELY owned by Brookfield, named after the chairman of the board of Brookfield. If ANYONE, the City, Brookfield, Santa Claus, I don't care who, has spent money landscaping the park, you have NO RIGHT to tear it up. PERIOD.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

It's a PUBLIC park on private land. It is NOT privately-owned space.

[-] 0 points by NonParticipant (151) 3 years ago

POPS. PRIVATELY owned public space. Owned by private interests, but used by the public" is another definition of Zuccotti Park.

[-] 0 points by neighbor (2) 3 years ago

Not to mention that there used to be a local farmer's market there which is now gone because of the protests. Instead we have people burning gas to drive from Vermont and lecture people on sustainability while planting in soil that is likely routinely sprayed with rodenticide.

Does anyone see the irony here?

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

Respect for the land and sustainability invovles a lot more than a few seeds here and there doesn't it NonParticipant.

Nice to meet someone with real respect for the land - and I bet you feel the same way about other peoples' land, public lands, parks, etc don't you

I grew up were respect for the land was right up there with respect for other people. The two went hand in hand or nobody went anywhere.

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

Fortunately u escaped

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

No, I had to make a very hard decision. My folks had two sons, one could survive on the amount of land that our family farmed, the other had a decision to make. I made mine, but I will always consider myself part of the land. I live in a mid-sized town now but have a yard full of plants and a small garden. Just in my blood.

[-] 0 points by NonParticipant (151) 3 years ago

My family owns 3 sections of land. That's 640 acres x 3 for those who don't know. My dad started buying it in 1948 and has added to it over the years. Until he passed, he farmed at times and ran cattle on it. I'd be interested to know if OWS thinks that they should have access to that land, since it is currently regrowing after years of being grazed, and be able to plant whatever they want on it. Do they want access to all land, or just land they deem public?

[-] 1 points by Occupytheimf (134) 3 years ago

Ive got a link in info. Its ows declaration dating back to debut time at liberty sq.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

OWS isn't going after privately-owned land. The park is a PUBLIC park. Get a grip.

[-] 0 points by NonParticipant (151) 3 years ago

Yes, but it was discussed that land not being used should be bombed with seeds, etc. I'm trying to get a definition of what land, of whose land. Only totally public land or any land that isn't "in use". I have a grip, but thanks for encouraging me to get one.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Um.... I'm pretty sure they're talking about public land that isn't in use or that is being used in bad ways. They aren't going to take away your land, so stop fretting.

[-] 0 points by NonParticipant (151) 3 years ago

I am not fretting. I am trying to understand, since there are about 2 million divergent opinions on what OWS is about. And since I see people sleeping in tents and planting seeds in places I don't think they should be, I am interested in making sure my rights and my property are not infringed upon. STOP talking down to me.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Um.... I'm NOT talking down to you. That's your interpretation. I'm telling you to NOT fret, because the goal of OWS is NOT to take private land from people. Regardless of the opinions out there, OWS NEVER has stated it is out to take people's privately-owned land.

You asked a question, and I answered.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

Please - SwissMiss - read back through the sequence of the posts regarding this matter. You stated Um...i"m pretty sure they're....." This was not a definitive answer, merely speculation. You only provided clarification after the reply to your comment was posted. I read through the comments and was also totally confused until you spelled it out more definitively in a later post.

[-] 0 points by stevo (314) 3 years ago

Plant them in the shit buckets. They should grow really well. But. they could taste a little funny.

[-] -2 points by JohnnyO (119) 3 years ago

Plus theres tons of human guano in and around the Park to nourish the veggies.

[-] 2 points by Careful (2) 3 years ago

Be very careful with this. Many urban areas can have high concentrations of industrial chemicals that linger for years and years. What looks like potting soil can contain chromium, nickel, all sorts of stuff. Your first crop should be potatoes and simply thrown away; potatoes will filter out heavy metals. Your second or third could be edible.

[-] -1 points by JohnnyO (119) 3 years ago

Yeah, plus a lot of the soil is contaminated with decades of urination.