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Retribution Against the Financial Elite!

A New World

Posted 2 years ago on Nov. 1, 2011, 5:30 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt

the beginning is near

What it is, the demand the 1% can’t comprehend, is us. It is the individuals and villages, the cities and peoples across the world who are seeing each other on the far side of appeals and petition. It is the world we are becoming.

Establishment polls confirm what everyone in the street already knows: a clear majority of New Yorkers, three of every four, support the occupation and get the “demand” in their gut. The epicenter of the October 15 international day of action was Times Square, barricaded by police insistent to demonstrate their control. But our town is only one center. The world is round.

In the south, thousands streamed onto the avenues of Buenos Aires and Santiago. In Brazil, Peru and Colombia, in more than 20 cities of Mexico and all through our Americas, people came out. There was noise. More like a song.

In the East, demonstrators supporting the occupation emerged on the streets of Hong Kong and Seoul, Manila and Jakarta, Auckland and Melbourne. Days earlier, astonishingly, a solidarity rally in Zhengzhou, China supported the “Great Wall Street Revolution.” China has rallied for our human rights. Imagine.

In Africa, protestors gathered in Nairobi and Johannesburg. The heroes of Tahrir Square in Cairo have returned to battle the military regime that did not follow Mubarak into infamy.

Germany and Greece, ruled by the same banks, rose up with Spain and a lost generation of Europeans to claim a future from the dust of faded empire. Everywhere the lack of demands let us see each other clearly. Across the world, as if for the first time.

And in our own backyard, in thousands of backyards, from Augusta and Jackson, Springfield and Sioux Falls, Vegas and Santa Rosa and Green Bay: Americans celebrated the occupation in its infancy. Jobs with dignity. Housing fit for families. Education. Health care. Pensions. The very air we breathe. What can those who want democracy demand from the king, except his crown? Regime change is in the air. America is looking at itself, it’s place in the world and who we are to be.

This is not a demonstration. It’s participation. Creation. This is a movement where we can be ourselves, together. In Liberty Square. In New York City. In America. A new world.


By Jed Brandt AND Michael Levitin
Originally printed in the Occupied Wall Street Journal

306 Comments

306 Comments


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[-] 2 points by mymangene (4) 2 years ago

Warren Buffett, in a recent interview with CNBC, offers one of the best quotes about the debt ceiling:

"I could end the deficit in 5 minutes," he told CNBC. "You just pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election.

The 26th amendment, granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds, took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! Why? Simple! The people demanded it. That was in 1971...before computers, e-mail, cell phones, etc.

Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took 1 year or less to become the law of the land...all because of public pressure.

Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on mtheir address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise.

In three days, most people in The United States of America will have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed around.

Congressional Reform Act of 2011:

  1. No Tenure / No Pension. A Congressman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they are out of office.

  2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security. All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.

  3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.

  4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.

  5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.

  6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.

  7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen. Congressmen made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people then it will only take three days for most people in the U.S. to receive the message. Maybe it is time.

THIS IS HOW YOU FIX CONGRESS!

[-] 2 points by sweetel (6) 2 years ago

That's a great idea but how about adding any President that signs an unconstitutional bill, or starts an unconstitutional war will be automatically tried for treason.

[-] 2 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

There is no other way. We The People have to rid ourselves of that Congress. They are destructive to the well being of this country. We need a march to the Capitol,right up the steps...fore they do not hear our cry unless we are at their Front Door!

[-] 1 points by AnonDan (27) 2 years ago

Agree

[-] 1 points by StevenRoyal (490) from Dania Beach, FL 2 years ago

How about adding this idea to fix em: Right now there is only one US Rep. per 720,000 people. It's no wonder they don't listen to the people anymore. There is nothing in the Constitution that says it has to be that high. If we reduce that number, the Reps will be closer to the people and their increased number will be much harder for the lobbyists to corrupt. And it will scare the shit out of them.

[-] 1 points by rEVOLUTION (14) 2 years ago

I get your point but you're talking about adding more politicians to the payroll. This poses a dillemma .

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

Not if they re-allocated 0.001% of the military budget... That should cover it, with money to spare!

[-] 1 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

Exactly. We already have enough politicians on welfare payed by the American taxpayer.

[-] 1 points by StevenRoyal (490) from Dania Beach, FL 2 years ago

Its not about that. Its about better representation.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

agreed

[-] 2 points by gregg (11) 2 years ago

So beautiful. Thank you! Be the peace!

[-] 2 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

I want my money back!

[-] 2 points by ericdh777 (3) from Jacksonville, FL 2 years ago

Thanks to every one that is fighting to make a change...

[-] 2 points by Indepat (924) from Minneola, FL 2 years ago

What is the 99% becoming? or is? a disorganized mess.

[-] 2 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

Put simply, I believe the whole movement worldwide needs to be centered on the FACT that in a democracy the people are in charge. Government officials need to be reminded that they are not our RULERS but our SERVANTS. Even the title CIVIL SERVANT implies the obvious; an admission entitling them to 'authority' in the 'service of civilians'. This does not give them power over us but grants them distinguishable rights that provide authority to serve the voice of society as a whole. It would seem to me that, we the people, feel the voice of these servants no longer echoes our voice, if indeed it ever has. We are met with disdain for our claim to freedom. Our governments would prefer we keep our noses out of our own business - a fools errand. We are the business, we are the consumer, we are the links in this vast network of supply and demand. The world belongs to us, to all of us. Not just a squandered few, who through bureaucratic deployment ASSUME ownership over the material goods and resources of this world. I for one stand by the notion that, given the opportunity, freedom and education, we would prove to our elected officials that a true democracy would outshine the dismal glow provided by imperialism and the competition of capitalism. I'm not talking about abolishing the entire infrastructure we've come to depend on. Rather, to take the system we have in place and adjust its paradigm, which would in turn change the way in which we utilize the infrastructure of civilization.

A PROPOSAL STAGE 1

First, revoke, the status of persons from corporations. Mostly because corporations aren't being held accountable for their social and environmental crimes the way real people are. Any real flesh-and-blood human being would be convicted and sentenced to death or life in prison for the types and number of crimes many corporations have committed.

Second, legislate a thin line for all government officials to walk if they expect to stay in office. If their actions aren't noticeably and definitively altruistic, they're out.

Third, build a national website that clearly categorizes and denotes all political issues currently in dispute by our government, making them public. I picture a meld between Facebook and twitter type of site where people can vote on every issue, discuss every issue and find resolutions to every issue by having popular threads voted on while leaving the thread open to amendments by others that, once again, the people vote on. That way, our representatives would have a clear picture of what our concerns really are.

Fourth, put a stay of legislation on the government, essentially freezing the Political arena temporarily from any further changes. Now, fire them All! Every Congressman, every Senator, the entire board of the Federal Reserve, and yes, even the President. Allow them all the opportunity to petition to get their jobs back by appealing to the public. But of course, they will now be scrutinized for their previous performance or lack thereof.

Fifth, fill in all relevant positions for public representation left, using the new National Democratic Political website, from people who are voted in based on their desire to serve the people and our consesus that we believe that because of how they've conducted themselves on the site..

[-] 3 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

STAGE 2 Restructuring the global social/economic structure      Today we live in a global society structure that runs like a complex machine, a clockwork; analogous even to an organism.  A system of complex networks of communication, transport, cultivation, distribution of resources, etc.  This system was devised some time ago for the benefit of mankind. It worked well, insofar as it's ability to raise the standards of living for a portion of the human population.  Industry has bequeathed on us, both salvation from the unrelenting struggle for survival for some, as well as a life indistinguishable from slavery, wrought with poverty for others.      So why should I care? If I don't belong to the latter group.  One reason might be because, if we use the analogy of an organism, efficiency and effectiveness require that the system as a whole regard it's individual parts equally in order to perform at it's full capacity or potential.  Take a cheetah for instance, if the internal structure of the organism was fighting with itself for resources, and say, the muscles won the fight over the lungs for extra food, we would be left with an organism unable to perform because its muscles expanded while reducing the lung capacity to provide enough oxygen. Hence an organism that, overall,  performed worse than the one we started with.      This simple example illustrates how human society, as a whole, operates much like an organism and is therefore subject to the same parameters required for survival. If we expect human 'society' to survive, we are forced to recognize the requirements this survival depends on.      Now, a paradigm-shift.  Just as single-celled organisms evolved from individual survival tactics, to community structures for mutual benefit and protection, (all the while competing with eachother), to a miraculous transition - they discovered a way of networking communication across vast numbers of themselves and in it, discovered a sense of unity that bore the first emergence of a multi-celled organism.  We as humans are now at the stage where we get to decide; do we unite, and together become something greater than any individual can achieve, or do we fall prey to competition, devouring everything in our path, including our competitors?      How do we take what we have and make it something we "All" can, more or less, happily live with? Perhaps the time has come for the next major transition in the development in human civilizations. We have the opportunity, if we stand together, to put an end to poverty, an end to hunger, and most importantly an end to the blatant disregard for human liberty and the environmental disposition of our planet. What I propose is to re-create our system of government and not simply to change policy or elected officials. The Occupy Wall Street movement is giving us a unique opportunity to make changes far greater than any protest has ever bestowed upon us. What we can achieve through a global coalition of protesters can mark history with a point where our grandchildren will look in their history books to this day and say, "this is how our world was saved. This is a testament to the courage and conviction of our ancestors that brought equality, liberty and justice to us all." This is my aim. This is my goal. I personally believe In the human race. I know we are all individually different yet believe we share more similarities than differences. If we work together, if we work for each other, we will wake to the day when the single-celled individual human being stops competing with its fellow individuals and unite to form the first emergence of the multi-celled united human race

[-] 1 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

These are great propasals. I think we are on way to them. However, what must we do to make this happen..to push it. Its a cold winter! Many people are going indoors. I can't blame them. What we must do is reinvent ourselves,and stratagies through the winter. Trust me...the powers that be are definetly doing this. I don't think sitting in the cold through the winter will help the movement. We need to be indoors planning and staying healthy so we can continue...just like our forefathers who wrote the Constitution!

[-] 2 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

Of course, people shouldnt risk their health without the proper supplies to weather the cold, but I have to admit, peaceful public protests are powerful statements in themselves. Also, much strategizing can be done amongst the protestors on location. Personally, I feel the most powerful way we can move this forward is to form assemblies at the locations of all the OWS protests and act as if each assembly were a government body, respectfully discussing our political issues and coming to resolutions through popular votes. If we can do this, we will be able to clearly show the government, the 1%, and the rest of the 99% watching news coverage at home, that masses of people CAN make democratic decisions without the governments central control. Can you imagine the media covering a story where what was shown on camera was assemblies of people having an organized deliberation that resembled what congress does?

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

I really like your ideas.

[-] 2 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

Thank you! I hope others feel the same. I hope others take action, work together PATIENTLY and try to be less judgmental.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

me, too

[-] 1 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

I imagine the assembly on the steps of congress often and in the very near future.

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

Also, we can install voting boxes on the outskirts of the protest area and, after resolutions are made within the protest assembly, we post them next to the voting boxes and allow on-lookers and people walking by the opportunity to vote.

With that we can also add clearly defined petitions for people to sign, if they agree.

[-] 0 points by FreeMarkets (272) 2 years ago

Stage 3: Even MORE Cowbell!!!

[-] 1 points by dkozask (27) 2 years ago

Gene, wait! Why don't you come on over here and lay that cowbell down here with us...together.

[-] 1 points by Frustrated39 (75) 2 years ago

If Bruce Dickinson wants more cowbell, we should probably give him more cowbell!

[-] -1 points by FreeMarkets (272) 2 years ago

Babies.. before we're done here.. y'all be wearing gold-plated diapers.

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

?????

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

Nuts.

[-] 3 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

nuts is believing in a invisible hand of the market. nuts is believing a graph that shows an x and says the x is the maker and breaker of markets. nuts is believing elasticity of the human spirit will not out last the elasticity of supply and demand. nuts is creating an economy that does not make anything tangible but creates derivatives of debt. nuts is the current system and those that defend it.

[-] 2 points by gagablogger (207) 2 years ago

And even the Repugs don't believe in the invisible hand anymore, as proved by W bailing out the banks with taxpayer money.

[-] 0 points by notimpressed (1) 2 years ago

I have never lost a penny in Wall Street. Why? because I don't invest in Wall Street. I don't lose money playing poker either. Why? because I don't play poker. If you don't like the game, don't play it. You really don't need to protest the game, just don't get involved.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

You are right, but it's not about me. It's about the nation.

[-] -1 points by dkozask (27) 2 years ago

The coomon denominator of all of you fools is that YOU CANNOT ACHIEVE ANYTHING. It is NOT a movement that shares a collective altruistic goal for humanity, but a coolective of numerous individuals are all discontent with themselves. You are angered by a system that - while WAY from perfect - is one that you cannot work either within - or around. You have seen failure in your life that has gotten the best of you. Instead of perhaps USING the system - such as investing a small portion of money and seeing it grow over time - you use it as a scapegoat to mask your own denial...claiming that THEY are your problem. And then you are delusional enough to think that everyone shares your views. And when they don't, you attack with convenient labels that you hear from the media. If you care about yourself and humanity, pickyourself up, get educated, work hard, spend less than you earn, invest some for a respectable return (perhaps invest in a tent-making company), let your money "work for you," then give some away and use your time to directly help your fellow man by working in a shelter or adopting a child. But obviously the easy/lazy route is to stand in a park, where no effort, either physical or mental, is required - and then disturb others. Nice life. Watch out for the looming Bank UFOs...

[-] 2 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

I have an altruistic goal for society. I'm extremely disappointed with the system, not angry. I am doing just fine within this system, considering I'm educated, work hard and live within my means. But my issues with the system don't concern my personal well being. I am appalled at how little regard is taken with respect to resource management and environmental damage. I am appalled at how corporate interests take the lead over universal human rights. I am appalled at how government is more concerned with military funding than child education funding, health care funding, innovations and job creation funding, etc. I am appalled by how patent offices have given corporations ownership of things that cannot be OWNED by anyone (of course, this is bureaucratic ownership and not authentic). The list goes on... Basically, I can make my life just fine with this system but I nonetheless will NOT stand by and watch our planet get corrupted and destroyed by a measly few that don't give a damn what happens to anything or anyone so long as they get what they're after.

[-] 1 points by rEVOLUTION (14) 2 years ago

False Conciousness.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

You're a fool.

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

I know it's hard, but try not to sink to their level. I personally fight off the urge frequently :-). As Gandhi said, " BE the change you wish to see in this world." Use your intellect... That'll hit em where it hurts!

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Yeah, I need to let the emotion pass before posting! Thanks for reminding me.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

Fabulous!!!

[-] 0 points by Uspatriot5000 (128) 2 years ago

Amen! Plus, most of their retirements(those who work anyway) is tied up the very market they are trying to bring down.

[-] -2 points by dkozask (27) 2 years ago

nuts is sitting in a park with no savings, job, achievements, ambition, confidence, or means to achieve change in their own life - and assuming everyone shares their views and expects them to follow their goofy tactics.

[-] 2 points by BreadLandPeace (359) 2 years ago

Yes, it's so nuts that Bank of America dropped its plan to charge cardholders $5 a month on their debit cards.

[-] 1 points by rEVOLUTION (14) 2 years ago

Bank of America changed their fee policy yesterday and I'm sure it had nothing to do with OWS suggesting to people to change banks.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

You ignorantly assume and accuse the protesters of not having jobs or any savings or anything else. How foolish that is of you.

[-] 1 points by Callmetofo (39) 2 years ago

You (Swissmiss) create a fallacy in that you assume that, the protesters that don't have jobs for the sole reason that there aren't any, not that they really tried. Although it is true many people support the movement who has jobs, including the unions, it does not dismiss the fact that many of the protester do not have jobs, which is a concern many people talk about on this forum. dkozask stereotypes protesters of not having any jobs, yet you are just to blame for stereotyping everyone who is against the movement in your later comment.

i would like to point out, you only state things we should do, ie boycott things, and talk about how you're "planning to occupy", a common phrase is pics or it didn't happen not that i'm asking for pictures, but people shouldn't flaunt what they are doing, if they brag they aren't doing for the cause, they are doing it to make themselves feel better because of their own insecurities, which your lack of addressing any "specific" issue the movement has reflects.

Because i don't think very much of you, in layman's terms judging on your comments of this post, from your "i totally agree" and "you're probably right!", and not to mention your so-quick to shoot an opposing idea down, means that your knowledge of the movement is scares at best. you tear down ideas and do not issue any of your own personal ideas because you do not have the capability of either articulating your own ideas or smart enough to defend them.

[-] 0 points by dkozask (27) 2 years ago

Not very.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Um.... yeah it is. You don't know all of the protesters (if any of them) and are making blind allegations.

[-] 1 points by GarnetMoon (424) 2 years ago

Right on Swiss miss. I work 60 hours a week and make time to go and support both OWS and occupyBoston. I was in Zucotti Park sleeping in the rain and I plan on going back. It is well worth the sacrifice when you make a stand for the betterment of humanity and are spurred on by the warmth, goodwill and encouragement of like-minded people. My fellow occupiers!!!

"The Man Who Fights For His Ideals Is The Man Who Is Alive"

--Cervantes--

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Good for you!! I also have a full-time job and DO support the movement and plan to get to my local version of the Occupy.

[+] -4 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

nuts is those who want to destroy capitalism .

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

Nuts is those who believe that the current state of capitalism is honestly the best state of affairs we can find ourselves in.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Do you notice how the majority (or maybe all) of the people who come on here to put down the movement and who are against it have nothing intelligent to say regarding why they are against it? Instead, they just spew hate, nonsense, and moronic statements, and they call people names. I'd like to see ONE PERSON who is against the movement state why they are against it in an INTELLIGENT way. It hasn't been done yet, as far as I can see.

[-] 2 points by independentmind (227) 2 years ago

I am against this movement because it is too broad a scope.

The more "causes" you pick up under the Occupy umbrella, the more discourse you create within your own group... as well as simply alienating others entirely.

I am against this movement because I have stated calmly, rationally, intelligently and courteously my stand point regarding my concerns that you are focusing on the wrong group of people over and over again. I think you'd be hard pressed to find me post one rude, name calling post in all the many I have made... however...

that is what I am greeted with by voicing my opinion and concern more often than not. From Occupiers.

Do not be mislead. Occupiers are as rude, uneducated and lacking elocution as anyone else out there.

In fact, I really, truly think that you are one of the people I have encountered before and have shot my ideas down as impossible...without so much as a discussion about the matter.

I will soon be done with this site, done with OWS entirely. I would love to see real change occur... but if I can't be part of the process... and I am not comfortable with the course this movement is taking, then I will bow out completely.

As will many, many, many others.

Any movement of the "people" that only hears the people's voices it wants to is a farce. A joke. My voice is not represented anywhere in these pages. Not once. And any time I offer it? I am shot down.

Not everyone has the patience I do. The diligence that I do... to keep trying. To not lose my temper. Just FYI.

[-] 1 points by Callmetofo (39) 2 years ago

You belittle the other side's argument to the point where your bias-ness makes your opinion invalid, i personally believe that the Movement has a right to be mad, but its lack of organization and methods create a atmosphere where anyone can speak for them, in result we see protesters attacking children on their way to school. If police are known to respond with unequal force, protesters should not be throwing liquid at the police. because the movement can be represented by anyone such as yourself, people's stupidity, reflects onto the movement, and hinders the movement's progression. Get off the Band Wagon, create your own opinions, "they just spew hate" you're "spewing hate" on them by stating their ideas are "moronic and nonsense". Don't belittle someone's ideas when you have none of your own. i have seen "intelligent" ideas from both sides of the ows, you are not part of either of these.

and as Independentmind says underneath me, you are one of those you tear down ideas without posing any solutions, you have no real voice, you regurgitate what you hear other people chat, stating ideas that blanket over all ideas without going into real specifics, you are the stereotypical protester that soul purpose in this movement is just another physical body to fill a space.

look at me I'm protesting, people say this is a just cause, so I convinced myself it is because I have a need to belong

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

I agree completely! Honestly, I'm starting to get the sneaky suspicion that some of these people might be lobbyists hired by the elite in the 1% to disrupt, divide or undermine our collective ideals.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

I believe so as well. If someone truly is against it or doesn't agree with it and has thought out why and has sounds reasons, then they'd discuss them in a civil and intelligent manner. I have yet to see someone do that.

[-] 1 points by GarnetMoon (424) 2 years ago

They are just trying to demoralize us... Remember that hate is not the opposite of love but rather indifference. They spend way too much time here and whenever you give time to something, you really must love it; in a distorted way, I really think these people want to love us, IMO

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

You're probably right!

[-] 1 points by Frumious (10) from Los Angeles, CA 2 years ago

"Balls!" said the Queen. "If I had them, I'd be King." "NUTS," said the Prince. "I've got them, and I'm not King." "Crap," said the King, and 100,000 loyal subjects squatted and strained, because in those days, the King's word was law.

[-] 1 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

Agreed!

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

All others have failed miserably.

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

Always live by:

If at first you don't succeed, try and try again.

And NEVER give in to:

If you can't beat'em, join'em.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

Socialim and communism have failed because they don't work, It's not that the wrong people tried it,......it's the very system that's a failure

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

Any ideas as to what kind of system works?

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

Capitalism.

[-] 1 points by rEVOLUTION (14) 2 years ago

Well you certainly have circular arguments down pat.

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

You do understand that capitalism has practically enslaved most of the third-world; continues to strip the planet of resources without any regard to long-term consequences; polluted the oceans so devastatingly and stripped them of life so thoroughly, it seems nearly impossible to repair; continues to poison the atmosphere; poisons our soil with pesticides which required genetically modified crop to withstand which gave corporations the open door to own through patents, which is poisoning our bodies, compromising our general health, as well as a host of other detrimental things - all in the name of economic growth and progress.

I'm sorry my friend, but that is not the kind of system I would regard as Practical or viable.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

4evry Capitalism has enslaved most of the 3rd world? Capitalism enriches people. Pollutes the oceans? Most of the pollution in the ocean comes from the ocean itself.Poison the atmospere, no, the air is just fine. And on and and on and on. Volcanoes do more to pollute the air than people. You're funny. Really, you are. This is an industrialized world.There is no utpoia.

[-] 1 points by derek (302) 2 years ago

Thanks for posting a lot of great ideas. And thanks for your reply to something I posted above. And that prompts me to supply some more links related to your post.

On the discussion issue for the third point, you might like this article: "In Professor’s Model, Diversity = Productivity " http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/08/science/08conv.html

Or this one on how truth emerges out of argument: http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/15/researcher-responds-to-arguments-over-his-theory-of-arguing/

Basically, voting loses a lot of information, so the discussing part is much more important to come up with good options. See also: http://barcamp.org/w/page/47222818/Tools%20for%20Collective%20Sensemaking%20and%20Civic%20Engagement

On new models for society, you might also like this story: "The Skills of Xanadu": http://books.google.com/books?id=wpuJQrxHZXAC&pg=PA51

Or this essay: "The Abolition of Work" (and see other stuff on that why work mirror site, too): http://idlenest.freehostia.com/mirror/www.whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/abolition.html

And: "Five Interwoven Economies: Subsistence, Gift, Exchange, Planned, and Theft" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vK-M_e0JoY

Or "Manna": http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

And other stuff by Marshall Brain: http://marshallbrain.com/robotic-nation.htm

More on automation: http://econfuture.wordpress.com/

You can look at all the RSA Animate items, starting with this one on motivation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

Or "Buddhist Economics" by E.F. Schumacher: http://www.smallisbeautiful.org/buddhist_economics/english.html

Glad you said you were writing stuff. The world needs more good contemporary stories to inspire people. "Voyage from Yesteryear" is a sci-fi story by James P. Hogan that has inspired me and others; about that book: http://www.jamesphogan.com/books/info.php?titleID=29&cmd=summary "The book has an interesting corollary. Around about the mid eighties, I received a letter notifying me that the story had been serialized in an underground Polish s.f. magazine. They hadn't exactly "stolen" it, the publishers explained, but had credited zlotys to an account in my name there, so if I ever decided to take a holiday in Poland the expenses would be covered (there was no exchange mechanism with Western currencies at that time). Then the story started surfacing in other countries of Eastern Europe, by all accounts to an enthusiastic reception. What they liked there, apparently, was the updated "Ghandiesque" formula on how bring down an oppressive regime when it's got all the guns. And a couple of years later, they were all doing it!"

Also of interest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas_World

And: http://www.juliansimon.com/writings/Ultimate_Resource/ (Though Julian Simon ignores externalities and wealth centralization, he otherwise has a lot of great things to say about possibilities of the imagination as the ultimate resource.)

And: http://cleantechnica.com/2011/05/29/ge-solar-power-cheaper-than-fossil-fuels-in-5-years/

And lots of stuff here: http://inhabitat.com/

And: http://knol.google.com/k/beyond-a-jobless-recovery

Long term ideas: http://tmp2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

The big challenge is to connect up with others doing related work somehow. Especially because, as you hint at, in a yin-yang way, our world seems structured by both cooperation and competition. E.O. Wilson talks about this: http://ronbc.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/e-o-wilson-deselects-his-scientific-kin/

But cooperation still makes sense to foster: http://www.share-international.org/archives/cooperation/co_nocontest.htm

And we need to cooperate more and more considering how powerful our weapons have become: http://www.anwot.org/

[-] 1 points by notimpressed (1) 2 years ago

AWESOME idea!!! Maybe we could have the President have to go before all the people every four years and try to get his job back. Oh wait, damn it, someone already thought of that. You are truly moronic. Maybe you should run for office.

[-] 2 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

Really? I can only assume you dont exactly understand what I said. Read it more carefully and try using more intelligent replies in the future. Regardless of who you are - the 99% or the 1%, what I describe benefits everyone on the planet, no exclusions.

[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

Here, here!--well said Diplomacy!

[-] 1 points by wormholes (19) 2 years ago

The major tools that OWS, et.al. are massed power of goodwill, the dynamic effect of intelligent and active understanding, and the potency of a trained and alive public opinion which desires the greatest good of the greatest number. This dynamic power has never been employed. It can, today, save the world. Movements which are selfish in desire, foster hatreds and separateness can be countered by a univesal longing for right human relations, to a determination to create a better and more peaceful world and to a worldwide expression of the will-to-good.

[-] 1 points by DKK (2) 2 years ago

What you smell is the stench of communism, a proven system that disincentivises everyone in it.
Remember, you are fighting the very thing that allows a website like this to exist. In true communism, there is utter control. We are actually getting to that point now, under the MSM.

[-] 1 points by DKK (2) 2 years ago

What you smell is the stench of communism, a proven system that disincentivises everyone in it.
Remember, you are fighting the very thing that allows a website like this to exist. In true communism, there is utter control. We are actually getting to that point now, under the MSM.

[-] 1 points by HelpingOthers (10) from Wall, NJ 2 years ago

this picture brought me to tears, tears of hope for my generation

[-] 1 points by Misenka1457 (45) 2 years ago

We need a national general strike of all workers, all 99% walk out of their jobs!

[-] 1 points by FTBBREVOLT (3) 2 years ago

What about the retirement eligible union employees that have received huge perks to stay in place which is keeping recent grads out of work? I'm just trying to point out that the economic problems are the fault of not only corrupt wall street thieves and political thieves, but also unions.

Just think, retirement eligible / capable people actually retired you and I would have a choice of jobs to do. There really are a lot of pension eligible people that are getting perks from unions just to stay. Unions get a larger portion in dues as a result.

Chase the thieves from Wall Street. Vote out politicians that allowed the problems to occur. Push unions to stop the practice of retirement eligible to stay in those jobs.

Unemployment will greatly decrease, the economy will grow, tax payers money will be wasted less, AND retirement age people will be able to enjoy their remaining GOOD years.

Keep up the FIGHT!!

[-] 1 points by Heliodorus (7) 2 years ago

Crowd source a virtual congress on the Internet (while you still can), organize America's first television network owned solely and collectively by the American people (the airwaves amazingly still belong to you), promote and openly discuss various propositions for change (rent football stadiums if necessary and involve any and all Americans who want to participate in the debate), use your virtual congress to vote for or against various measures and "weight" the vote if necessary (for example, require perhaps a 75% majority - plus or minus - on propositions advocating for the invasion of sovereign foreign nations such as Libya), hire lobbying firms and/or send your own delegates to lobby YOUR representatives in the U.S. Congress, monitor how they vote, and send those who don't understand the meaning of "democracy" to the back of the unemployment lines.

This is doable and does not require a Constitutional amendment requiring a 2/3rds vote of both Houses and ratification by 3/4ths of the states some time in the next 27 years or a Constitutional Convention, etc. You're not doing anything more than the special interests are doing - just lobbying YOUR Congress. But this time, instead of using bags of money to influence the vote in the form of campaign contributions, use YOUR POWER OF THE VOTE as it was intended - not to vote for some near-do-well "leader" and then hope for the best.

Because the framers gave you the Bill of Rights (ninth and tenth amendments in particular), YOU are still the 800 pound gorilla in the room; you just don't know it. And please don't blame the Founding Fathers of this grand experiment because they had no other choice but to form a representative democracy 200 plus years ago when votes were delivered by wagon and counted by candlelight. They didn't know about computers and the Internet, communication satellites in space, jet airplanes, cell phones and television and would have put a bigger "D" in the word democracy had they known. Now it's YOUR turn to save their vision - or lose it...

[-] 1 points by ungr8ful (70) from Benicia, CA 2 years ago

Wow I just looked at some of the pics from last night looks like things changed a little bit, so what is the plan now???

[-] 1 points by OWSisawaste (133) 2 years ago

OWS is creating problems and trying to upset a country founded on capitalism. in every society there are classes no matter what kind of society it is, communist, capitalist, fascist, whatever. There will always be a high, middle, and low class, you cannot change that. There is no way for a country to work the way it should with everyone on the same playing field. it just is not possible. so to all you OWS people out there, your cause might be just in your mind and sound good on paper but in the real world, it is not possible. You are just creating a stage on which you make noise and yell at the government that allows you to protest and try to destroy the country that gave you the rights to try and destroy it. be thankful you live in a country as good as this one, or go to Somalia or Iraq or North Korea and try to protest there about big business and see how it goes.....

[-] 1 points by speakplainly (1) 2 years ago

Since I have found no other website about occupy wallstreet, I have to assume that this is this website is the online voice of the movement… I have to say that I am extremely disappointed. Nothing is really explained and nothing is defined. Buzzwords like neoliberalism ect are thrown around and loose goals like shut down the 1% but no outline of what you want to accomplish. I have read the entire homepage and do not have a clue about what exactly this movement wants to accomplish nor, beyond organized protests how they will accomplish it.
I assume that the 99% is an economic definition, but it is not stated… What is the 1%? Is it people who make over a certain amount per year? Is it people who have $X in assets? Neoliberalism is defined multiple ways… What is the organization’s definition? The closest thing to a definition of anything on your website is “concensus-based direct democracy” as you define as “Decisions are made democratically, without voting, by general assent” but the first thing that came to mind after reading the “definition” of it was mob rule.
Since it is not attempting to work with the corrupt government we have, is it trying to overthrow the government of the United States? If so, does it have a proposed constitution to replace what we have? Some of what is written like sounds like socialism bordering on communism… Maybe I am wrong. Maybe that is not the end game of this movement but how can I know because nothing is stated or defined which ironically sounds a lot like what politicians do… If you want the whole of the 99% and not just students and the fringe giving support… STATE WHAT YOU ARE, STATE WHAT YOU WANT SPECIFICALLY, AND STATE HOW YOU WILL ACCOMPLISH IT – NOT LIKE A POLITITIAN BUT CLEARLY AND IN GREAT DETAIL.

[-] 1 points by johnmandude (1) from Pittsville, WI 2 years ago

Your goal now should be the full removal of the Democratic party and the Republican party that currently hold office in Washington and beyond.. these two party's are guilty of some of the most vile oppressions and cruelty ever perpetrated on peace and freedom. you need to force the politicians out of office by the election process and add your own elected officials and choose your own candidate for president with no party affiliations.

If this movement is to survive, you in essence have to become a new form of independent. You can't allow either party to try and use your momentum to shape their party's elections and candidates and rhetoric. you have to allow all Americans regardless of party affiliation and a consensus has to be achieved by intelligent debate and a clear policy that removes those that do not want freedom to be free from greed corruption to be removed by a voter consensus at the polls.

You have the numbers but they still have the guns. your biggest weapon is intelligence and peace use them and many will follow your cause.

[-] 1 points by RevolutionaryTruth (95) from Houston, TX 2 years ago

The World Calls For Change!!! Together We Cannot Fail!!! http://therevolutionarytruth.tumblr.com/

[-] 1 points by abadabado (2) 2 years ago

who do

[-] 1 points by sandhammaren08 (3) 2 years ago

Recalls to mind the late 1960s. The red poster reminds me of an ill-fated academic attempt to resurrect the ILL/Wobblies. The movement truly lacks focus. With demands as broad as 'revolution' it will fail and peter out. Without specific focus and program it will be seen in retrospect as a giant happening. We are not Israel, we are not the Arab world. And after every Arabic spring revolution, Islamists have reared their theocratic heads.

[-] 1 points by CommonPerson (10) 2 years ago

Hi OWS - piece of advice: No one is going to understand your message until you make a Hollywood movie about it. Or even a great doc. So stop occupying Zuccotti Park and killing local businesses, start finding office space, a media plan, and investors for a great screenplay that explains your very complex message.
If you truly want to reach Americans...tell us a great story.
In the meanwhile, stop (literally) pissing on your neighbors.

[-] 1 points by CommonPerson (10) 2 years ago

"Establishment polls confirm what everyone in the street already knows: a clear majority of New Yorkers, three of every four, support the occupation and get the “demand” in their gut." WHAT IS THE DEMAND? Stop Occupying and start doing something! Everyone knows things are screwy. Do you have a solution? Take advantage of your momentum before it fades. You've wreaked havoc on your neighbors. Do something, demand something, or Occupy some friggin OFFICE SPACE STAT to figure it out and stop costing this city a FORTUNE.

[-] 1 points by UnitedStatesofResponsibility (4) 2 years ago

I do NOT have any problems with those who are wealthy or are part of big corporations, however, when it involves recklessness, corruptness, dishonesty, and exploitation of others and resources (environment) that is when it should not be tolerated. I believe in hard work, ambition, honesty, and overall integrity, allowing each of us to attain what we consider success or wealth in their lives. Let's face it though, the playing field is not even and we are not all born into ideal and/or privileged situations. Some people have to overcome many obstacles in order to acheive basic opportunities, such as education. Yes, it is possible and should be strived for, but those who have not faced those odds can not speak from experience and should not conclude it is just a matter of will. They should feel fortunate and realize that any success or wealth they achieved is not threatened by giving others the opportunity to achieve the same. We can not all compete on the same level if one attains his or her wealth by shortcuts, inconsideration, or dishonesty because it creates inconsistencies in standards from those who have and those who don't. Those corporations/persons who have resources such as lawyers, accountants, financial investors/analysts, risk analysis/assessment, have no excuse for not using those resources to EASILY remain responsible, accountable, honest, and legitimate for all aspects of their decisions/actions. Yet, it seems just as optional as regulations do. Have wealth. Have Capitalism and democracy. Have big business, but do so with a clear conscience and in a responsible manner. There is no reason for those things to be seen separately.

[-] 1 points by haili (7) 2 years ago

a new world has to be opened up by new questions.

[-] 1 points by haili (7) 2 years ago

i'm for no isms--ask an interesting question (relevant to the 99%). go from there.

[-] 1 points by haili (7) 2 years ago

all 99% of us. Noam is but one. let the ones haven't been heard talk, now.

[-] 1 points by haili (7) 2 years ago

let's talk together!!!

[-] 1 points by handro (16) 2 years ago

What are you guys smoking crack? There is not going to be a regime change because 1,000 people are camping out in a small park in lower manhattan. Ain't gonna happen. I predict that either a Democrat or a republican will become president next year and that business as usual will 100% continue. There is nothing you can do about it this way. You need real political power not pretend general-assembly political power.

[-] 1 points by rEVOLUTION (14) 2 years ago

A revolution of backwoods colonists can't possibly win againt the British Empire (insert foppy British accent).

[-] 1 points by rhk129 (2) 2 years ago

I am 65 now and while in high school back in the early ‘60s, my economics teacher told us why higher income earners pay more as a “percentage of their income” via income taxes than the lower income earners. He also told us that low and middle-income families pay as a “percentage of their income” higher road taxes, tolls, permits, fees, and other fixed taxes. Now that we are talking about a flat income tax for all wage earners, will that also include a flat tax as a “percentage of our income” for the bridges and tolls across the USA like in the NYC area? Will Donald Trump, now start paying $200 to go through a tunnel or bridge to feel the same pain as my fellow lower income earners? Should not all citizens pay as a “percentage of their income” the same flat tax for everything? Do the top 1% on the income ladder use our roads and if so do they pay any road tax other than income tax? Do they write them off and make the poor pay these taxes in product prices? Will Warren Buffet now pay $100 for a gallon of gas with this new flat tax for everything? Bob - Oxford, NY

[-] 1 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

Food for Thought. Thank you

[-] 1 points by rhk129 (2) 2 years ago

I am 65 now and while in high school back in the early ‘60s, my economics teacher told us why higher income earners pay more as a “percentage of their income” via income taxes than the lower income earners. He also told us that low and middle-income families pay as a “percentage of their income” higher road taxes, tolls, permits, fees, and other fixed taxes. Now that we are talking about a flat income tax for all wage earners, will that also include a flat tax as a “percentage of our income” for the bridges and tolls across the USA like in the NYC area? Will Donald Trump, now start paying $200 to go through a tunnel or bridge to feel the same pain as my fellow lower income earners? Should not all citizens pay as a “percentage of their income” the same flat tax for everything? Do the top 1% on the income ladder use our roads and if so do they pay any road tax other than income tax? Do they write them off and make the poor pay these taxes in product prices? Will Warren Buffet now pay $100 for a gallon of gas with this new flat tax for everything? Bob - Oxford, NY

[-] 1 points by enigma888 (5) 2 years ago

Americans are afraid of freedom and make a mistake thinking it scientific, financial or material. Where are the new leaders that are defining the plan for once this movement takes over? Why is there so much "anarchy" in the dialogue, and what will be done with the millions of variations on governance coming from all these free people. What happened to the original plan to infiltrate and change from within, as all other social movements have had to adapt to in order to have a lasting affect? Depose those leading, certainly I agree, replace them with who though, as in all commercial interests legal or otherwise, remove the head and seven more grow to replace it.

I read the "strategies and expectations," and see nothing that would work as a replacement for our existing systems, just complaints and rhetoric, and I'm very open and liberal minded. When I sat with Occupy Seattle, there was only constant noisemaking, anarchist pamphlets, and absolutely no leadership. Are we all supposed to accept that our selfish and warlike ways will all be resolved with the removal of the existing systems? Really??? And who will police us when everyone goes to working "freely" and goods are no longer predictably on shelves and services are not provided according to schedule? Are we really to believe we will all just chill and relax?? Please people!!! All organisms must adapt and through the proven tools of evolution, change from within. Watching anarchists get arrested is only proving that the generation of the 80's raised a generation wholely focused on comfort of self as a measure of success in life instead of strength of character, perserverence, and determination to succeed in spite of all odds.

Stop laziness, now there's a cause!!! That's the only way this uneducated high school dropout was able to start my own company and succeed as a national consultant afer a successful career rubbing elbows with those Wall Street dogs! You want to win? Change yourself and move above this stupidly materialistic point of view, as IT is the real trap!! This coming from a 99%'er.....

Law will not accomplish what people are not already compelled to do.

[-] 1 points by enigma888 (5) 2 years ago

Americans are afraid of freedom and make a mistake thinking it scientific, financial or material. Where are the new leaders that are defining the plan for once this movement takes over? Why is there so much "anarchy" in the dialogue, and what will be done with the millions of variations on governance coming from all these free people. What happened to the original plan to infiltrate and change from within, as all other social movements have had to adapt to in order to have a lasting affect? Depose those leading, certainly I agree, replace them with who though, as in all commercial interests legal or otherwise, remove the head and seven more grow to replace it.

I read the "strategies and expectations," and see nothing that would work as a replacement for our existing systems, just complaints and rhetoric, and I'm very open and liberal minded. When I sat with Occupy Seattle, there was only constant noisemaking, anarchist pamphlets, and absolutely no leadership. Are we all supposed to accept that our selfish and warlike ways will all be resolved with the removal of the existing systems? Really??? And who will police us when everyone goes to working "freely" and goods are no longer predictably on shelves and services are not provided according to schedule? Are we really to believe we will all just chill and relax?? Please people!!! All organisms must adapt and through the proven tools of evolution, change from within. Watching anarchists get arrested is only proving that the generation of the 80's raised a generation wholely focused on comfort of self as a measure of success in life instead of strength of character, perserverence, and determination to succeed in spite of all odds.

Stop laziness, now there's a cause!!! That's the only way this uneducated high school dropout was able to start my own company and succeed as a national consultant afer a successful career rubbing elbows with those Wall Street dogs! You want to win? Change yourself and move above this stupidly materialistic point of view, as IT is the real trap!! This coming from a 99%'er.....

Law will not accomplish what people are not already compelled to do.

[-] 1 points by PreserveLiberty (7) 2 years ago

Sounds like mindless, rudderless treason to me

[-] 1 points by OurConscience (3) 2 years ago

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner.

Please replace all references to "D/democracy" with "L/liberty" or "F/freedom".

Thank you.

[-] 1 points by jillturnerart (3) 2 years ago

Beautiful! Thank you.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

we must first deal with the known criminality of the system. we must use the law to arrest and imprison them. we must concentrate on exposing their crimes. those are our demands. there are TWO INSIDE JOBS!! 911 INSIDE JOB and SUBPRIME FRAUD INSIDE JOB. both were organised nationally by freemasons. who ordered NORAD to stand down tso that the two planes could fly into the towers "causing" the CONTROLLED DEMOLITION of three towers!!!?? who ordered the illegal removal of evidence from the ground zero crime scene without testing it for explosives after multiple explosions???!! who coordinated the massive sales of unaffordable subprime morgages. who quickly incorporated these into derivatives? who made money from the sale of these derivatives? who approved their AAA rating? we are being treated like suckers, brutalised with their BS. our futures and lives sold down the river. first expose these crooks, prosecute them, recover our money and introduce democracy to america. we must remove these fascists from power. it is our community v their psychopathic society.

[-] 1 points by lobbeton (5) from Grand Rapids Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

It's paranoid fools like you who make organizations like this get dismissed by the general public.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

the truth hurts fascists and their stooges. just GRINNING IN YOUR FACE!!

[-] 1 points by lobbeton (5) from Grand Rapids Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Good lord...You're a funny guy. Do you ride around on a motorcycle yelling ANARCHY IN THE UK!!!!? You're right though, the government is fascist and i'm their lackey sent out to silence your one golden voice of truth. We're COMING FOR YOU!

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

your violent bully fascist nature has no place among us.

[-] 1 points by betsydoula (143) from Beverly Hills, FL 2 years ago

Thank you for this article. This is why so many of us have a difficult time explaining the Occupy movement to people who don't get it in their gut. Like you state, it is participation, creation. This is us together creating the world we wish to live in. The dialogue does not have to be about what we are against, but about what we are for. We want equal access to basic human needs. The current system by which we operate is not what is best for most people to meet these needs. Times they are a changin' as somebody else said, but change comes from within. The blame game will never work. Now that the financial crisis has woken up the sheeple, many of us are first realizing that we are the ones we have been waiting for. I believe I read that from the Occupy Blogosphere, from what Willie Nelson had to say a couple of weeks back. We are the change we want to see. We are interconnected if for no other reason than we are all human. We look different, wear different clothing, drive different cars, but we are all the same. This energy and the spark that ignited in us to bring us to this movement is what will drive this forward. Who knows what the change will look like? How can anybody say "I have the answer." Let's continue to replace the I with we. Let's all think about the intention and set our goals accordingly, together. The systems that are broken have been designed and perpetuated by people, so it is the people that must change. Begin within.

[-] 1 points by Thisisthetime (200) from Kahlotus, WA 2 years ago

Be Strong. Fair-ness.

[-] 1 points by yourpop (1) 2 years ago

A good time and date for "the beginning" would be at 11:11:11 on 11/11/11. easy to remember by future generations.

[-] 1 points by HigherPower357 (1) from Blagoevgrad, Blagoevgrad 2 years ago

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15549352?postId=110752472#comment_110752472

Don't forget about them. Greece is going to free itself through the power of the people, if this man leading them has the courage to go through with the referendum.

This is real democracy, from the country that invented the word.

[-] 1 points by ediblescape (235) 2 years ago

OWS is creating a Wiki world as Wikipedia did for encyclopedia.

[-] 1 points by CancelCurrency (128) 2 years ago

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

[-] 1 points by betsydoula (143) from Beverly Hills, FL 2 years ago

That tells it all.

[-] 1 points by Tyroneaustin (7) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

“”YOU NEED A GAME PLAIN”” Inventions Designs & Concepts.LLC Please Organize your FORCES. Chain of command need to help implement these programs in you OCCUPIED CITIES. Then you too can control the WELTH in you communities. Any Question Just contact me. I’m willing to add more directions to help you make this once in a life time SHOT come true. Helpful Directions Below. How to FIX the US Economy 101 http://www.fatttrixx.com/revenue.html " 5 Tank System.AVI” Free Energy” "Hydrogen Car Fenders 2012" See these 2 program that ID&C designed OCCUPY SOCIETY!! WIN WIN !!
!! We as Americans need to Reverse the way Big Companies get their revenue , (Answer)DIG INTO THEIR REVENUE 1) Drinking Water Sales revenues 100% to the People 2) Snack FOODS revenue 20% to the People 3) Car Fuel 70% 4) Power Companies revenues 80% 5) Video gaming Playing revenue 70% We at ID&C have Programs to enter into all of her above major industries Join a SOLUTION
"OCCUPY SOCIETY"! WIN WIN! "How to FIX the US Economy 101" http://www.fatttrixx.com/revenue.html 1) Found Raising/Donations collection ($$$$) 2) Take that money to a Young group of manager who just finish one of those trade schools that the President Paid for . 3) Hand over the “Hydrogen Car Fender” design to them and direct them to a Plastic manufacture. 4) The plastic manufacture will accept the designs for the “Hydrogen Car Fender” and make the east mold to start Pressing them out. 5) Tool Shops will be given the Designs for the style of Hydrogen Stainless Steel configuration for the plastic manufactures to place in side the mold to incase inside the Fender. 6) Make and models will very so the Team of managers will produce and organize the install time for make and models.
The next stop. You should be showing the people that relief they been asking for .http://www.fatttrixx.com/revenue.html. “Anonymous” “ The Cure 4 America” TIMING IS EVERYTHING> NO SECOND CHANCES get this program and get at it ASAP...We as the 90% can control $7Billion ever 30Days and Fix what is wrong Step by Step.

1)Start asking the wealthy for money . Raise the money to produce the Hydrogen CAR FENDERS . 2) Allow US Citizens to pre register their car on line to help raise capital before you go into productions. 3) Use the Money raised on line to Pay manufactures and tool shop (Job Creator) for producing and delivery of the Hydrogen car fenders. 4) Set up shops around the USA in every State to get more people involved in saving portion of $6,000 a year. Shops will Installs these device when they are delivered.

5)When US Citizens Pre Order on line they can then ask for make and model of car , or they can just Commission A Hydrogen car fender before they know what type a car it will be installed on. 6) Portions of the founding in the Pre section of these program will be sent to develop the final 3D rendering of "Hydrogen hammer System" and '5 Tank System" With these two Program you can offer the people a TRUE SOLUTION with $6,000 a month in their pockets and YOUR GROUP gets to control $7Billion a month , back in to the US ECONOMY.

Sounds simple, that"s because it is. WRONG WRONG!! We as Americans need to Reverse the way Big Companies get their revenue

[-] 1 points by TTTTT (66) 2 years ago

GET THE RICH OUT OF POLITICS AND GOVERNMENT

A solid first step in fixing our economic and political woes is to disqualify any person worth more than three million dollars, regardless of political party or affiliation, from holding political office, occupying a civil service position or holding a judgeship. The rich are too corrupted by greed to be of any benefit to the community generally or be trusted by the American people. Putting the rich in government or the judiciary is like turning over the reins of power to a bunch of felons.

The American middle class, the true creator of jobs and wealth, should control the government for the people. The advent of democracy was the cradle of capitalism and democracy must still prevail before the greed of the already wealthy completely destroys our democratic way of life, economy and values.

The foundation of our nation is not capitalism but democracy in the form of a Constitutional Republic. Capitalism is nowhere even mentioned in the American Constitution. Our ancestors fought in the American Revolution for American democracy, not for rich Americans.

Capitalism is a tool of democracy to generate wealth and prosperity for all. Democracy should not be the tool of capitalism to generate wealth for a few. Capitalists have beast-like qualities and capitalism itself is a beast that must be harnessed to pull the plow for the well-being of humanity.

Now is an historic opportunity for hard-working, inventive and creative middle class Americans to assert their majority rights against a corrupt and ineffective elite who have brought the country to ruin.

Good Americans need to oppose the prevailing culture of greed at every step.

Notes:

Wealth does not equal intelligence. Einstein was not rich but he was miles smarter than these clowns who pretend to be geniuses because they have or control money. It is the resourceful but duped middle class that keeps these parasites rolling.

To clean up political America we need to clear the lobbyists out of Washington and all government circles, so rational decisions replace greed as the motive force for change. We need strict term limits for all politicians so that there is a continuous flow of fresh ideas in all policy making arenas instead of old, stale and corrupted views of the way things were. The end of private financing of elections would permit the best candidates to compete for public office without ties to organizations who could care less about the public well-being when it conflicts with their profits.

The means are apparent. We need to defeat politicians who disagree with these principles (and who are in the pockets of the super-rich) and only elect politicians who agree to enact this vision at the earliest conceivable moment. The tenets of this position are straightforward and understandable and may constitute a guide for the American middle class without being co-opted by agents of the wealthy, who would corrupt this platform for the benefit of their masters.

Historically and presently, it is neither healthy nor desirable for the rich to make policy decisions affecting the public. Individuals must choose between a life of narcissism in pursuit of personal wealth and fortune or love of the community and humanity. The two have never been compatible.

Nothing in this approach prohibits lovers of money from pursuing personal wealth or affects the existence of business, markets or rich people. However, they obviously need regulation of their greed to prevent excesses harmful to the community generally. And, above all, it takes them out of the political and policy making areas of government, which is where they cause the greatest harm.

Capitalism did not make America great. The American people, striving for freedom from oppression and the accidental abundance of untapped natural resources, made America strong. The credit goes to our pioneering ancestors and our industrious middle class, not fat cats on Wall Street.

[-] 1 points by Uspatriot5000 (128) 2 years ago

Yeah, and this is already starting to have a negative impact on the economy. None of you care that you are costing people their jobs. Some of us want to work instead of wasting our time with this mess.

http://www.vosizneias.com/93928/2011/11/01/new-york-ny-kosher-cafe-owner-sacks-21-employees-as-consequence-of-occupy-wall-street-demonstration

[-] 1 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

The True Form Of Democracy is Taking Shape!

[-] 1 points by captain (4) 2 years ago

how is any of this effecting the people in power? true if everyone stopped consuming all together it would put a dent in there pockets and prove a point, but what would it change? they still have resources,money,and the connections to make your movement in vain. a good friend and myself speak of this subject often. so think if you had all this money and power what would you do in that mind set? you would protect it these people have been in these organizations of power for a long time, and unfortunately the only thing that seems like it would take the neccessary means to temporarely eliminate this cycle is by eliminating the corupt who have created it.

[-] 1 points by rEVOLUTION (14) 2 years ago

Theyre reeling. I havent heard a Chris Christie soundbyte in weeks! It would take a worldwide movement to shut him up.

[-] 1 points by FUCKYOUOCCUPIERS (2) 2 years ago

stop smoking pot and go back to the factory

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Thanks for making those of us that disagree with some of the views here look like dumbasses.

high five

[-] 1 points by FUCKYOUOCCUPIERS (2) 2 years ago

You guys are so dumb. you are really dumb. fo real.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

If your going to talk shit at least use proper grammar and spelling.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Yeah.... like how you wrote "your" instead of "you're".

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Irony

[-] 1 points by Search4wizdom (2) from Staten Island, NY 2 years ago

Love it.

[-] 1 points by RMeacham (3) 2 years ago

moving

[-] 1 points by StevenRoyal (490) from Dania Beach, FL 2 years ago

How about this idea: Right now there is only one US Rep. per 720,000 people. It's no wonder they don't listen to the people anymore. There is nothing in the Constitution that says it has to be that high. If we reduce that number, the Reps will be closer to the people and their increased number will be much harder for the lobbyists to corrupt. And it will scare the shit out of them.

[-] 1 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

in response to mserfas == omg ... that was so funny, sad but true, DEA is setup to keep profits up for traffickers and keep themselves and weapons building manufacturers profiting from our tax dollars, not to mention privately own prisons, lawyers, etc etc... what a joke of a system, did they really think we would let this go on??

[-] 1 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

is this think working?

[-] 1 points by johnis48 (72) 2 years ago

America is not a land of one, but a land of many.America is the face of the world.America is the greatest country in the world for many reasons. America is the land that is looked to for freedom of speech and much more.And when those in power are blinded by money and greed it will be the America people who will demand change and change will come. I am an American and damn proud of it. And will do all in my power to safe guard the freedom and liberties there of. And will do what it takes to keep America the land of the people and not the gov't that is controlled by Corporate Greed.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

We need to get rid of the idea that the USA is the greatest country in the world. That is a very destructive idea.

[-] 1 points by GarnetMoon (424) 2 years ago

Amen to that Swiss miss!! I have been saying that for years but god forbid you should even think that. You are thought of as being unpatriotic,etc. I come from a little third world country, I am also a US citizen and still retain my original citizenship. BTW, my country provides healthcare to all it's citizens...no medical bankruptcies here...

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Yes, I often get chided for saying this. Some people just don't get it. They think everything is the best here, and you'd better not question that.... or they'll tell you to get the hell out!! That's some attitude, isn't it?

I find it ironic that many countries that are considered "third world" by Americans provide their citizens with things such as health care and education and others, while the USA fails miserably at doing so.

[-] 1 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

Tell it Swiss Miss! Its the Truth!

[-] 1 points by johnis48 (72) 2 years ago

Your right in away. But my meaning of that is it has the greatest mix of people from all over the world and what better place is there that all the different people from all over the world can learn to get along.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

OK. I just didn't read it that way.

[-] 1 points by sweetel (6) 2 years ago

End the wars, End the Fed, Repeal Patriot Act, Look at the Libertarian running his ideas to cut a trillion in gov't spending. It's a great idea for starts. Get the Federal Gov't out of our states and communities, everything they touch turns to crap!!!!Vote every neo-con rino out of office and replace with a constitution conservative either Dem or Rep it doesn't matter they play games with us divide and conquer, but they are the same. The corruption is thick with corporatism, lobbyists buying our senate and congress and wall street buying the presidency. Don't fall for CFR run media fox,abc,cnn, etc. They are out to destroy America for the NWO.

[-] 1 points by igruuv (4) 2 years ago

Check this out, I reckon big potential for funniness and peaceful protest…

www.trackgooglevans.com

Track Google Vans gives you a way to effectually protest in the real world using just your computer and a finger. Or should I say many fingers.

Corporate greed brought the world to its knees in the recent Global Financial Crisis (GFC) and the world’s climate is out of control. In short, ‘who is running this place?’

Send the message that you think the world is being mismanaged, and do it in a manner that is peaceful; whilst allowing for a bit of fun as well. .!.. So, If you want to “Stick it to the man,” .!..

Do it peacefully, and

-------------..!. “Stick it to the van!” .!..

Be alerted when a “Google Van” is near you (these are the street view vans/cars used by some companies to enable street view), and as they drive past, give them a warm welcome with your middle finger!

The more fingers we can get on street-view the more effective the protest will be!!!

Join fingers with us and “stick it to the van!!!”

Track Google Vans - if you want to stick it to the man, stick it to the van...

[-] 1 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

we are on our way to true global democracy. we the people of the earth will reclaim the earth's natural resources from those who have used military force to claim them.

we will abandon the old value system which puts profits ahead of basic human rights and free access to the fruits of the earth by the people.

We are not free, we are not equal and we are not civilized until we have a system in place that guarantees every human the same basic access to food, shelter, good health and education in exchange for an equal contribution to our world.

We must lead the world to freedom from consumerism, freedom from propaganda, freedom from oppression and freedom from fear.

we will build an advanced civilization -- http://wesower.org

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

EXACTLY!!!!!

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

What garbage.

[-] 1 points by CSetton (68) 2 years ago

Sorry, but it's going to take a bit more than a feel good no content 'article' to make me feel good about what is going on with OWS. You need a clear message that people can grasp outside of their "gut" and put it down on paper for all to see what your goals are specifically and in what manner you plan to achieve them. I am running out of patience with all of this, whether I think the ideals behind the movement are valid or not. Give us some direct answers to the questions that have been asked again and again on this site- WHAT ARE YOUR GOALS AND HOW ARE YOU GOING TO ACHIEVE THEM???!!!

[-] 1 points by mserfas (652) from Ashland, PA 2 years ago

The rally in Zhengzhou seems ironic, but there is some underlying sense to it. China, like other Communist countries, has at times appeared to support the concept of "positive rights", i.e. the right of all people to have access to the necessities. Things like homelessness and unemployment aren't supposed to happen under Communism. Now of course, there are quite a few rights, including some very basic ones, that China doesn't really uphold no matter what their constitution might suggest, but the people who believe in them can't be blamed for that. I hope this will be an opportunity for East and West to come together and realize the importance of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, to guarantee all the rights of man, not just our first Bill of Rights but the second that Roosevelt proposed. We could put aside hard-edged philosophies of capitalism and communism and focus instead on the fundamental human element and all the freedoms we can muster.

News on this was at http://asiancorrespondent.com/66717/occupy-wall-street-protests-staged-by-chinese-pensioners/ and various other sources (do a Yahoo search http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?p=zhengzhou+%22occupy+wall+street%22&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701 and sort by time - the earliest reports are almost always the best reports)

[-] 0 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

Yes, yes, YES! absolutely what we are striving for. It's time we come together, it's time we unite, it is the time we will mark in history, as the movement that coalesced the human race.

[-] 1 points by mserfas (652) from Ashland, PA 2 years ago

I'm not really that optimistic, but we can hope for progress - for the U.S. and China to try copying some of the things that are best about each others' systems for a change, and not just what is harshest. And who knows? You never know where a mass movement is going to go until after it is completely over and done with.

[-] 0 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

Why not be that optimistic? All humans, the world over, innately know but avoid voicing outloud, that every human is generally the same and has equal right to this planet as any other human. And if the majority of this planet, regardless of class and social position, have no desire for war and don't clash as harshly as the very miniscule minority of power brokers, then it makes no sense that war would be allowed to continue. The planet is roughly 7 billion strong while no more than several million people CAN'T get along. That's all I needy to say :-)

[-] 1 points by maydemia (4) from Hana, HI 2 years ago

I don't want a global government I do want global equity. Can we have one without the other?

[-] 1 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

no, we must transition to an advanced civilization, there is no other way, trust me, you will be happy there and your family will be cared for, we guarantee it.

http://wesower.org

[-] 1 points by maydemia (4) from Hana, HI 2 years ago

creepy

[-] 1 points by CSetton (68) 2 years ago

Right? That's what it sounds like just before they hand you the cup of grape Kool Aid, "trust me, you will be happy there and your family will be cared for..." Er... and where did you say the door was again?

[-] 1 points by joybasu (23) 2 years ago

we can have global equity without global government, in fact without any sort of government whatsoever... with state and government there will be no equity, be that local or global.

[-] 1 points by maydemia (4) from Hana, HI 2 years ago

even tribes in Africa have some form of government. In the smallest tribes people are governed by social pressure; as population goes up governmental systems change. Are you suggesting a "big man" style where the big man is elected but has no real authority or power except the power of persuasion or are you suggesting something else. If then, what and how would it work on a global scale?

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

What is global equity?

[-] 1 points by maydemia (4) from Hana, HI 2 years ago

equality of all people on a global scale

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

Human nature ,being what it is,...............never gonna happen.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Enough people want it, so it CAN happen. People like you will just be left in the dust.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

Given the amount of people on the planet, and human nature, some people are pure evil . Idealists are the first to be killed because of their naivete.

[-] 1 points by gravitypress (1) 2 years ago

Amazing.

[-] 1 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 2 years ago

O H - T H E - T I M E S, T H E Y - A R E ' A - C H A N G I N' !!!!!!!

Thank you, Jed and Michael, for your beautiful piece of writing - not prose, but a poem, a song, a prayer.

Thank you, OWS, you guys are the Great Patriots and true heroes of our time.

May you bury the morally bankrupt "American Empire" and give birth to a N E W - A M E R I C A that we may all be proud of !!!

[-] 2 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

boycott capitalism, this christmas give hope for world peace and unity, not junk no one needs....

we are the cause of our own enslavement, change your values -- http://wesower.org

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

I don't celebrate Christmas, so I'm with you. I've been boycotting spending money stupidly on Christmas for quite a while.

[-] 1 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 2 years ago

Yes. If you must give gifts,give to the shelters,to the Salvation Army!Give to the homeless on the streets. If you feel as if you have to give gifts to family members and friends,make them. But Give to those that are truely in need.

Don't buy from big business,buy from the small business owner.

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

I'll donate to shelters as you suggest. Great idea.

[-] 1 points by Frumious (10) from Los Angeles, CA 2 years ago

Hear Hear!!! Right On!

[-] 0 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 2 years ago

AGREE and in fact applaud.

[-] 1 points by CSetton (68) 2 years ago

Well, what's so wrong about gift giving when you give people things they need and can use? Like basic clothing- every year, along with presents, there was always a package of socks and underwear wrapped up under the tree... gift certificates for food to families you know are in need, gifts you've made yourself with care, homemade gift certificates to help people fix things at times when they need it- like their cars, their homes, when you have the ability and they don't? I know I would be grateful to get any one of these gifts and to give one of them too. There are plenty of gifts to give so as to continue to be festive (as happy times are also part of life) without everything being classified as "useless junk" that supports capitalism.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

There's nothing wrong with giving people things they need. But, it's when people go hog wild and spend hoards of money on shit people really don't need that plays into the capitalism game. Do the people you know really need more shit? I think that is a good question to ask when shopping during the holidays. I'm much happier spending time with friends and family and doing fun things rather than wasting money and time buying more useless shit for people. I don't partake in my company's gift giving, and my family and I have stopped buying gifts for each other. Instead, we have dinner together and do things together. That is much more fulfilling than buying shit. Our society is way too focused on material items.

And if people you know really need something but don't have the money to buy it, why don't you buy it for them at any time, rather than waiting for Christmas to buy it for them?

[-] 1 points by CSetton (68) 2 years ago

I agree that people have too much material things they think hey "need." I never suggested getting more, I suggested practical or homemade gifts. I do get people things they need all the time when I see they need them and I can help. I don't exchange gifts with anyone at all because of this, in part, because in our hearts, every day should be a holiday to a certain extent. To me, when it comes to gift giving, I find people are much more touched and appreciative when a gift comes at a time when they are not expecting anything and they feel no compulsion to respond in kind, just because it is a holiday and it's "expected." My son is still young enough to believe in Santa Claus, so I do get him gifts, but I'm not in a position to go overboard on anything and I make sure he sees that we give to those who are less fortunate than we are to encourage this practice in him when he is older, not just during the holidays but all the time. I was just noting that we don't have to boycott the holidays because we don't want to support excess consumerism. Being festive is a part of life as well.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

I agree totally. The focus should shift to activities and events and off of buying so much shit for people. I really like the idea of donating items to local food banks, shelters, etc. instead of partaking in the consumerism aspect of the holidays. And I like the idea of doing it year-round. I do do that, and many groups within my company do that year-round. That should become the trend, instead of spending hoards of money on crap.

Good on you for teaching your son about the importance of giving in a different way.

[-] 1 points by CSetton (68) 2 years ago

One thing that really bothers me... I have a relative that shops specifically for Christmas all year long. Gifts that could be used and appreciated in July sit gathering dust because it's not a Christmas or your birthday. I may have less to give on a certain day when I'm "supposed" to give, but by giving all year long, it just makes more sense to me, not only are you giving people things they need at a time when they need them, you are also giving them a happy moment in what seems sometimes an otherwise bleak world where people seem to be thinking only of themselves. And I think it is very important to make sure young people see the value in giving from the heart, and it's telling that my son no longer asks me why we are doing these things, sometimes specifically shopping for new items that are on sale or because they may be out of season just to give to those we don't know and will never have the opportunity to say 'thank you' directly to us- this is not what giving is about. I want hm to see that you don't just give away your cast off items to "poor people" (we are kinda poor anyway), that they are dignified too and deserve nice things just as we do. I wish more people would do this, it would make for a kinder world.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

I agree totally.

[-] 0 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 2 years ago

I see no contradiction whatsoever between both ideas. I really like yours, they remind me of the Christmases that my parents used to have, a very long time ago... before Christmas became commercialized.

[-] 1 points by JonoLith (467) 2 years ago

This is Wondrous!

[-] 0 points by OccupyWallStreetButtons (16) 2 years ago

OCCUPY WALL STREET Pinback Buttons!

A portion of proceeds will go toward the local movement in the form of food and water. If you have a few extra bucks, drop off a box of apples or anything you can to the folks outside in your community!

Free Shipping Offer! http://buttonbasket.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=25

[-] 1 points by owltycho (6) from New Bedford, MA 2 years ago

How much of a portion? I'd love to buy some, but I don't want .00000001 of my payment to actually go to the occupiers.

[-] 0 points by freeusa (14) 2 years ago

Smell of freedom? go home and use the legislation to depose those government official, other wise the shame USA government will call this movement an treason. SHAMEon those police officer serving the wrong side of the fence, after all they are victim too. Ask The Police men when they walk by you-WHO DO YOU Serve? Who pay for your equipment, flash bang ? Shame on you we pay tax dollars so you can have a job

[-] 0 points by nucleus (3291) 2 years ago

The Beginning is HERE.

[-] 0 points by peterpham (0) from Nampa, ID 2 years ago

ows rule

[-] 0 points by PuerAeternus (22) from Tolleson, AZ 2 years ago

Go Occupy Movement, you have my full support!!!!!

[-] 0 points by yasminec001 (584) 2 years ago

Keep up the good work, Occupy. Things do not magically change overnight, as humankind has grown accustomed to recently.

The hard work was reserved for you, each of you, at every Occupy site in the world, and in every heart of those who have awakened to trully 'see' the condition of the world.

Those who oppose us and even use primitve actions of violence and hate against Occupy just don't see what we see, and they have not been privvy to our level of understanding of Who We Are as a world.

We will prevail. Love you all.

[-] 0 points by GetAJobSlackers (1) 2 years ago

what a bunch of morons

[-] 0 points by owltycho (6) from New Bedford, MA 2 years ago

Don't give up! Don't ever give up. In a world of shameless apathy, you people are Doing Something. I am so, so proud of all of you, thank you all so much for being the bravest people I know. I'll be asking everyone I know to donate to you guys in lieu of gifts this year!

[-] 0 points by dls101 (27) 2 years ago

Jed and Michael, You have written on of the most beautiful inspiring pieces from the Occupy movement I have heard..... Thank you. The Beginning is Near! The Beginning is Now!

[-] 0 points by frankchurch1 (839) from Jersey City, NJ 2 years ago

I'm sorry, this is shallow, but that girl on the picture is really pretty. lol

[-] 0 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

let us show the world that we can create heaven on earth, it starts by rebuilding our "garden of eden" - the earth.

Plant food everywhere and let the world be our garden, let the earth feed us, it is the first step to reclaiming the earth from evil.

We will start by ending hunger and the dependence on any type of system for basic subsistence.

http://wesower.org

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

I'll be planting my garden in the spring in order to produce as much food for myself as possible. Can't wait to do it. I'm working on coming up with other ways of being more self-sufficient as well.

[-] 1 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

garden of eden ? plant food? You don't plant food, you plant seeds. The earth doesn't feed you, YOU work your farm so that YOU have a harvest. reclaiming the earth from evil? What evil?

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

The earth DOES feed you. You just have to know how to find the food it provides and to grow food FROM THE EARTH. And you don't need a farm to grow your own food. You can grow food just about anywhere where you can put down soil and plant seeds and water those seed and give them sunlight. It's a very simple thing. I have veggie plants that were planted back in the spring still growing and producing food in pots.... and I live in Michigan where it's cold now. If you stretch your mind even just a little, it's amazing what can happen. Have you ever heard of living walls and hydroponics?

You can plant a garden in the bed of a pickup truck to produce your own food. I've seen people do it. People can produce a lot of their own food (at least fresh fruits and veggies and herbs) if they try.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

The earth does not feed you, you feed yourself. A farm ( whether it;s acreage or a few pots) just now grow itself, it require human maintenance . You can eat things that grow in the wild but I wouldn't do it. Poisonous.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

It provides you food, regardless of whether it grows on its own or if you plant the seeds yourself. Um.... there are plenty of plants that can be eaten that grow on their own. "You can eat things that grow in the wild but I wouldn't do it. Poisonous." That shows your complete ignorance about edible wild flowers and plants. How do you think people survived before they began cultivating and harvesting?

The point is.... just about anyone can grow their own food just about anywhere if they TRY to.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

Things grow on their own,......like the blueberries in my yard. They are indigenous, and since they are uncultivated they are small and not particuarly sweet. . As for the mushrooms that we have scattered around the property,.......no thanks, poison. We do grow tomatoes and basil, eggplants and peppers.

[-] 1 points by mserfas (652) from Ashland, PA 2 years ago

I'm not saying I think this is workable, but it's a beautiful vision. But it's amazing what a little knowledge can do. For a long time I knew my parents' land was infested with barberries, a prickly shrub with bright red berries that seemed useless, though they seemed to hang on the bush for months. Then one day I finally noticed turkeys eating the berries. Looked it up ... sure enough, barberries are edible and were used by pioneers in the 1800s as a routine foodstuff - still are in Iran. The taste is nothing to write home about, like clover leaves, and each berry contains a large bitter-tasting pit; still, suddenly I realize the area contains a food resource. Parts of the plant also have medicinal uses. Knowledge so commonly known among our ancestors does have some power to place resources back into the hands of the people. The science of ethnobotany tries to do this more generally throughout the world, and it is a noble pursuit.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Exactly!!! There are so many edible wild flowers and plants out there, but in our society, we have been dumbed down into not knowing squat about them and that we actually can produce most of our own food ourselves, instead of relying on the big food corps. I have a book on edible wild flowers and plants and will learn how to identify and find those plants to eat. People would be surprised by how much the earth provides us to eat without even planting anything.

Instead of using toxic weedkillers to kill dandelions with, pick dandelion greens to use in/as salads of greens and for medicinals.

[-] 0 points by squarerootofzero (81) 2 years ago

To me it is organic and fluid. Similar to life itself. The difficulty we face is defining what exactly it is. But we can't. That seems to upset people. I think that it just frightens them. And fear can have tremendous impacts on people. A chair is a chair, a car is a car, and a person is a person. That makes people comfortable. What makes them uncomfortable is questioning what is or what isn't - and not having an answer. Things sometimes are dualistic in nature. Things evolve and you can add your own meaning to it sometimes. But it always moves and changes. And you always keep going. You just try to walk into the light knowing that darkness is all around you.

[-] 1 points by nich (57) 2 years ago

The establishment can't handle this. They want agendas and goals because of their exquisite extprtise in crushing progressive and democratic agendas and goals. No one person has to be told why he or she is protesting, that is far more than the establishment can produce. In WWII, there were groups of people thrown together, they may have never had anything to do with someone of another culture but being in combat with each other created a bond between them that enabled them to later bridge these gaps with compromise retaining the feeling that they were in something together. They all put up with the bureaucracy of the military, as Eisenhower remarked about leadership, it is getting people to do what they want to do. Many parallels to this movement. This is the end of an era of massive indifference to one's fellow human being. Other people are an abstraction to establishment types. This is a new beginning.

[-] 1 points by squarerootofzero (81) 2 years ago

"They want agendas and goals because of their exquisite expertise(sp) in crushing progressive and democratic agendas and goals"

Exactly. It also holds people on the sidelines because they are afraid it will morph into something they don't want it to. They just need to find something positive to believe in, stop wallowing in the negative, and bring something substantive to the table.

[-] 1 points by nich (57) 2 years ago

Also, they just don't get it. It is a new era, even without demonstrations (I believe there will be significant resistance to the status quo, regardless of demonstrations) the old guard will die off, eventually. But they have to be pushed to relinquish the reins of power. They will not give up power easily, that is why peaceful protest is best. As long as it is peaceful, they will be lured into believing that is a pushover movement. Because of this, they will make serious mistakes based on poor judgment. There will be regrettable consequences to some who put their bodies on the line. However the tide of mass resistance is overwhelming. That is why it is important to grow and to live with (live and let live) internal disagreements. The GA is defining the broad outlines of how a new democratic process will work.

[-] 1 points by squarerootofzero (81) 2 years ago

Absolutely. We, as Americans, have the Constitutional right to assemble peacefully and to the freedom of speech. But attacking Occupiers simply because they don't like what the protesters have to say, the way they dress, or their political ideals is entirely anti-American and won't be stood for in any way. Things are changing, but I think it is a good thing to stand up and let everyone know that these are real people out on the streets and not just freaks, neo-consumers, Luddites, anti-capitalists or anything else that is considered sub-human.

[-] 1 points by nich (57) 2 years ago

I would like to see a permanent OWS "garrison" of one million occupiers in Wash. DC. It would probably take another million people circulating and another quarter millions support people in designated moving vans for food, clothing, bathroom and medical servicing around the clock.

Dare the 1%, most of whom are represented in the Congress and upper echelons of the government establishment to try to break that up.

[-] 2 points by ssassy (83) 2 years ago

Sadly, it is once again a one-sided perspective. The D's and R's COLLECTIVELY screwed us and it is time to leave them BOTH holding their hats!

There is enough blame to go around for our legislatures, presidential administrations over the past 40 years, and of course, enough left over for the oligarchs who have worked in concert with our government for their own benefit.

In the day of transparency, no matter how much the wrong-doers try to hide, they will be hunted down and have a spotlight cast upon their deeds against humanity. All emperors will lose their clothes, and rightly so.

I appreciate your contribution; however, it simply proves what most of us here already know. That there is no justice, there's JUST US!

[-] 1 points by nich (57) 2 years ago

I see politics as a racket, it has gone far beyond being a business where strategists, pundits, spokespersons and candidates roll in a codependent enterprise similar to professional wrestling. It is strange that so many experts and newspeople are brought to-gether for this new kerfuffle with Herman Cain. Yes, the matter of sexual abuse is serious, yes it is doubly serious but.. it is always a diversion from the issue of democracy and how everyone is dependent on the dogfight. Candidates hate each other like dogs in a fight ring hate each other. It is a fake, phony, for profit enterprise. The only ones who 'win' are people who have funded this enterprise and benefitted from highly perverse legislation.

[-] 0 points by Theundecidedpercent (24) 2 years ago

Yea, I have to agree with you. I was merely trying to give some perspective on the matter. It's not just the bankers and investors. It's the whole lot, governments are brought and do the bidding of those who are truly in power. Behind the scenes. It would make for a great movie if it weren't so sad.

Oh, and I don't think it's just democrats, we all know the republicans screwed the American middle class, just as much. The greatest example this article proves is why governments should not be interfering in a free market economy, it isn't a free market the second they do. And I think more than a few people still cannot understand that.

[-] 0 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

we will not stop until we have created heaven on earth...

http://wesower.org

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

There is heaven on earth. It's called the USA.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

so blinded

[-] 1 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

hahahhah ... wow, you have very low expectations.. lol

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

agreed

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

No, I have have high regard.

[-] 1 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

oh please, who wrote the energy bill and the health code? was it your highly regarded elected officials or private companies more interested in their profit than the public.

we are doing this without any of them or you. we are boycotting capitalism, it will soon fade, then what will you do?

lol - denial - the first phase...

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

My high regard is for the the Constitution Republic of the United States of America. energy and health bill written by democrats. Capitalism is the best system on the planet. It will never fade.

[-] 1 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

still in denial... capitalism has failed time and time again, it is way too easy to exploit.

you'll need to revert back to enslaving people if you want to give capitalism another go, and i can pretty much guarantee that won't happen, even in the current and more advanced system of slavery, it is already fading away... we haven't bought a single item and won't buy anything anymore.

try being a capitalist all by your lonesome, doesn't work so well...

[-] 1 points by hmmm (52) 2 years ago

Dude, if you haven't bought a single item, why do you have Google ads on your website?

What could someone possibly need money for if they "won't buy anything anymore"?

[-] 1 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

not my site and i still need to eat, but that's about it. boycotting capitalism until it is no more.

[-] 1 points by hmmm (52) 2 years ago

Wait, can you please choose a rebuttal? First you say it's not your site. Then you say you still need to eat (which seems to imply that you are buying food, possibly with revenue from the site). Then you go on to say you're boycotting capitalism until it's no more?

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

Where has capitialism failed?

[-] 1 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

greed greed greed, that's all that happened there, oh, and a bit of market manipulation to funnel more wealth up to the top. thanks for the "old news"

[-] -1 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

So, is it your ambition to be a failure?

[-] -1 points by Tyroneaustin (7) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

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The next stop. You should be showing the people that relief they been asking for .http://www.fatttrixx.com/revenue.html. “Anonymous” “ The Cure 4 America” TIMING IS EVERYTHING> NO SECOND CHANCES get this program and get at it ASAP...We as the 90% can control $7Billion ever 30Days and Fix what is wrong Step by Step.

1)Start asking the wealthy for money . Raise the money to produce the Hydrogen CAR FENDERS . 2) Allow US Citizens to pre register their car on line to help raise capital before you go into productions. 3) Use the Money raised on line to Pay manufactures and tool shop (Job Creator) for producing and delivery of the Hydrogen car fenders. 4) Set up shops around the USA in every State to get more people involved in saving portion of $6,000 a year. Shops will Installs these device when they are delivered.

5)When US Citizens Pre Order on line they can then ask for make and model of car , or they can just Commission A Hydrogen car fender before they know what type a car it will be installed on. 6) Portions of the founding in the Pre section of these program will be sent to develop the final 3D rendering of "Hydrogen hammer System" and '5 Tank System" With these two Program you can offer the people a TRUE SOLUTION with $6,000 a month in their pockets and YOUR GROUP gets to control $7Billion a month , back in to the US ECONOMY.

Sounds simple, that"s because it is

[-] 1 points by nich (57) 2 years ago

You can do all that stuff when you take the keys away from grandpa. You'll never do that by goals and demands. He has been crushing demands and goals for years.

He's good at it but he cannot handle scads of people who object to the status quo.He cannot do anything about it because he does not know how.

He will hand over the keys himself because he has been made aware that he has no credibility and the next generation is not going to follow him over the horizon. Making that clear is the present job.

You need to calm down, write what you want, it may be you are the only one who wants it and everything you want(as stated here) will not happen until there is a power transfer.

You sound like a boomer or the offspring of a boomer who cannot wait to implement the next social change by taking a modular approach to society.

There are thousands of non profits in every large metro area, they have been doing social reform for years, because that is how long it takes because politics keeps undoing the good.

I won't give you any web addresses, you'll have to find them for yourself. I don't know if you realize how long what you want takes and what it takes to do that.

All the stuff you want is either being done or will not be done until the job of transferring power is accomplished. Then you find that are thousands ne tens of thousands like you are all competing for the same space. You are both too late and too soon.

[-] 1 points by CSetton (68) 2 years ago

First off, no one can crush a goal. A goal may be blocked for a short time, but so long as it remains a goal it remains flexible and you can work towards it in many ways. Blocked at one point? Find a way to go around, there are multiple avenues. Demands, on the other hand, can be crushed, because no one likes an 'up in your face' approach to anything. A demand can also be ignored. You can only enforce demands if you are willing to resort to violence, which I hope in my heart of hearts this movement will never resort to. There is nothing wrong with setting out goals and setting out a first attempt at how you might achieve goals. When you make demands, meh, you are almost guaranteed to fail. Myself, I would like to see OWS make a list of goals they wish to start with and list some approaches they might take to achieve such goals. I don't think that's a lot for anyone to ask, particularly for a movement that seeks to change the face of the entire world.

[-] 1 points by nich (57) 2 years ago

I think that is wrong. Once you do that, (set goals) you are doing exactly what people in the establishment want you to do. I guess you are young and full of piss and vinegar. You don't have to force demands if you don't make them. Meanwhile there is growing body of people who are discontent. It has to dawn on people that 'there they are'.

Politics is emotional. There must be a reason that so many of these guys act like numbskulls and do not listen to reason. In fact, that is the last thing they ever do.

These people have adapted the hopes, dreams and fears of the previous 'greatest generation's enemies', their fathers were able to recognize SNAFU, catch 22 etc and still fight for a cause alongside people who they not only did not agree with but may have hated their ethnicity or religion back home. They knew why they were there. They were able to accept tactical and strategic war fighting goals and were glad there was someone else able to that.

Sorry, I think you are stuck living in you head. Try your heart out and then run your beliefs through that sieve.

I guess that sounds insulting but what are you trying to accomplish... in one sentence.

I am overwhelmed by you. Not "I don't understand you" or "that is too complicated" or "you are wrong" but " that is a lot of words and translated into action, it is a 50 yr manifesto.

Are you really saying "Follow me?" Just asking, because that is what you are doing.

[-] 1 points by CSetton (68) 2 years ago

Please. I am not living in my head, I am speaking from years of life experience trying to make it on my own in the world. If I had not set goals for myself, I would not have had a starting point from which to begin. Yes, I was once full of emotions and had passionate dreams of all the many things I wanted to be and do … but eventually I realized that if I wanted a certain kind of life- not one involving money and things, but happiness, I would have to set goals to get there, it wasn't just going to materialize out of me sitting there and thinking about it or debating it with a group of people trying to help me decide with the best of intentions, agreeing or disagreeing with me. I compare that with OWS- yes, there are a lot of good ideas floating around, lots of well intentioned passion, but there are also a lot of kooky ideas floating around there too, and at some point you have to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to these ideas. When you have these ideas formulated, you have to set goals to achieve them. No amount of thinking or talking or simply occupying is going to make these ideas into reality, only goal setting and taking action on those goals will. OWS is all over the place. Listen, I can see that this county's in a mess, that the world is a mess, anyone with eyes can see that. Many are hurting and are at a loss as to what to do. I empathize with that, completely. I have a heart, a very big one, and I do my best every day, quietly, when I interact with any person, anywhere, to be loving and kind because that is a goal I set for myself and I act upon it. I see no reason for OWS not to set goals and to attempt to realize those goals, for the good of everyone. I think the movement would be more palatable to those who have doubts or don't understand what the occupation is all about if OWS could even coalesce around a single issue, set a goal for that issue and lay out what steps they are willing to try to achieve that goal. That's what the idea is, to make the country and the world a better place, right? Without goals and a plan of action to make that happen, the occupation means nothing, unfortunately. And just for a reference point, I was pointing out the difference between a goal and a demand, that a goal can not be crushed but a demand can. What I clearly don't understand is what you wrote about "taking the keys away from grandpa" and having a complete power transfer before you can set or achieve any goals, which I disagree on that point, that's all. It's about the free exchange of ideas, right? I thank you for the kind exchange.

[-] 1 points by nich (57) 2 years ago

Hmm I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. The kooks are a troublesome problem.. personally. But, I myself have decided to put up with them with the caveat that I have a responsibility to say no when they get totally nuts. I find that most of them are followers who can regurgitate some intellectually formidable content but they are followers and that is usually the giveaway because they have no ethical influence on others. Newt Gingrich is the best example I can think of.

Personal goals are one thing. That personal experience, I believe, cannot be extrapolated to a movement. I think that when politicians neatly compare the government budget to the household budget, it is a completely false equivalent. The proof is to try yourself to create a budget for the country with information that you can scrape up yourself.

You have heard of Socrates. That is what Plato would have him do if you started with that equivalence.

Perhaps I am unyielding but I do not know you, I only know what is on your mind. Honestly, when I want to share big ideas or any ideas, I have to edit the shit out of myself. I have to be unmerciful with myself so I do that with others especially if I think there is a nub of truth. I wasn't always like that, but luckily I have survived many ideas that sounded good but the execution was fraught with unintended mishaps.

There are leaders and there are those of us in the trenches. I am happy with what people are saying.I am glad about the non violent message. I am satisfied with the idea of being a good neighbor (the golden rule). I am satisfied with the attitude towards the police who are often unjust in their actions. I see polite assertive people that are spokespeople. I do not kid myself that I could do as well. I have waited forty years for this.

When we shut down OSU in 1970, we were one half of one percent of the fifty thousand student body. Just being out there ended the concept of 'in loco parentis' (are you old enough to remember that?), we toppled the state Chancellor of education, we establish black studies (I am not black but their cause was just and they were in the trenches with us). Nixon had ending the war in his reelection platform but it took eight more years to end.

That is when we first learned about co-optation and it has been perfected over the years. I have been thinking about this as much as any war vet thinks about his service and how it changed his life. It is humbling, as it should be.

I thank you for a respectful dialogue.

[-] 1 points by CSetton (68) 2 years ago

You seem very kind, and I do thank you for the civility in the discussion, even though we disagree. I think the reason I am frustrated is because I see, for the first time in a really long time, people talking with each other about serious issues, and the issues are many and diverse. Seeing the potential of OWS, it is hard for me to come to the boards and observe the lack of civil discourse in so many of the discussions. This disappoints me to an extent even though I understand that the internet gives one a position of anonymity and one can feel free to bash ideas they don't agree with or understand...

I want to see change. I know many want to see change but feel helpless. They look to these demonstrations for answers because that is the front line, people observing first hand. When people can't seem to find agreement within the movement as a whole, they get confused and think- what do these demonstrators want, and is it in agreement with what I want? Am I the 99%? There is confusion. While I still believe in goals, personal and otherwise, I do understand that all have different needs and concerns and being in the park or other occupied location, breathing in the atmosphere of others who are also seeking change is a different experience than being at home and observing from the outside. I am starting to have a bit of difficulty articulating what it is I want to say... I don't want those outside of the occupation to feel confused, that this is just an exercise in anarchy, that there is no real direction they can follow or feel a part of, no real answers, no starting point for them to move forward in their own lives. I think this is the reason people want to see goals and steps to take to achieve goals. I sincerely hope OWS will be a flashpoint for real and sustainable change in this country and worldwide, but I guess in this situation events will unfold as they will and we will see what comes of it. If nothing else, OWS has made people start to think hard about their lives and realize that they really are a part of a larger community, not just isolated in their own lives and personal struggles. In that sense, OWS has already accomplished an important goal. I will think on what you have written here. :)

[-] 1 points by nich (57) 2 years ago

The important story of OWS is the mostly ignored (in the media) the story of the GA. Steven Colbert will be drawing attention to it for the next few nights. It is not the street protests and demonstrations, they are a way to draw people in and get attention. It is a loss leader( in marketing terms). They are governing this little patch of real estate and demonstrating with an object lesson in civics how to do things. This is their unspoken demands and agenda in action. There are many people with your point of view but they recognize that their disparate points of view are subject to a wider process. I urge you to get with that. It is where the rubber meets the road. People may think that their view is more comprehensive, sophisticated or just better. There is only one way to find out, in a true democracy. Get involved in governing. We need you. If you don't participate in governing then you will always be in dissent, Beside, that is what this is about. We can keep using the boards or you can email at 1libertyvalence@gmail.com

[-] -2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6276) 2 years ago

Please read my forum posts.

Strategies and Expectations (+links):

http://occupywallst.org/forum/strategies-and-expectations/

Replace Capitalism with Democracy:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/replace-capitalism-with-democracy/


Libertarian Left ideology explained:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu8J_UKKa-c


[-] 1 points by thebeastchasingitstail (1912) 2 years ago

Thanks for these, the video is quite interesting.

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

Right On struggleforfreedom! Good to see you here!

I believe we are on our way to freedom! I can smell it in the air.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6276) 2 years ago

"In this possibly terminal phase of human existence, democracy and freedom are more than just ideals to be valued - they may be essential to survival"

- Noam Chomsky

[-] 3 points by gagablogger (207) 2 years ago

Noam is awesome.

[-] 1 points by nguqua (4) 2 years ago

You, the crowd of occupy wall street, are invited to live in socialism countries before thinking of any revolution

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

Socialism has too many varying definitions to be loosely prescribed that way. It is neither good nor bad. It really depends on which definition you use and how it is implemented. Besides, it's not about making a socialist regime. It's simply a fight to stop the corruption that is too obvious to ignore anymore.

[-] 1 points by CapitalistPigAmerican (3) 2 years ago

That's bacon you smell. Smells just like freedom.

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

No, I know the difference... It's distinctly freedom.

[-] 1 points by alternateu (29) 2 years ago

Those words described what I felt @ Woodstock (no lie), & prior. That feeling was like a countrywide, psychological wavefront then..it really was thick enough to feel in the air. If it wasn't physically tangible, it sure was just 1 step short of it.

Postwar types are your biggest fans - I wish some OWS people would realize that - you are resurrecting the energies that were both stepped on &/or co-opted over the span of many years, & which most people thought we might never see again.

I have friends that are doing handsprings watching all this happen.

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

I can't stop smiling :-)

We who feel this way need to keep the energy up and to direct focus to the large issues that would resolve many issues simultaneously.

[-] 1 points by nguqua (4) 2 years ago

Leaderless, hehehe.... occupy wallstreet already has many, hehehe... the same revolution that is thirst for socialism regimes, hehehe... I am young but not so naive to be in this crowd

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

I'm sorry to see that you ARE naive... And gullible. As well as misinformed, misguided and on the wrong side of the fence. You see, you have sided against those who fight for YOUR freedom as well as their own. And stand on the side of those who have only one thig in mind for your future... PASSIVE slavery.

Socialism is neither good nor bad. It really depends on which definition, since there are many, you use and how it is being implemented. Despite the confusion in the OWS movement, the universal plea is a noble one... We will no longer stand aside and allow ourselves to be taken advantage of. Do you really believe the state of this world right now is the best we can do? I'll leave you with that to think about.

[-] -2 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Libertarian... o_O

By what definition of Libertarian can it be used with socialism?

Libertarianism:

1: A laissez-faire political philosophy advocating only minimal state intervention in the lives of citizens.

2: One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.

3: One who believes in free will.

laissez-faire:

A policy of leaving things to take their own course, without interfering. Abstention by governments from interfering in the workings of the free market.

Socialism:

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2: a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property

2 b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

[-] 3 points by JohnWa (510) 2 years ago

I think socialism existed long before Marx, Jesus, and any other historic figure. It is a group survival interaction where cooperation with mutual assistance supports survival chances better than being alone.

There are so many forms of socialism that brief statements really can be misleading.

Socialism has become a word of scorn in America and that is manipulative like calling someone a name to show you don't like them. Is it fear or masking another agenda that prompts such behavior.

Many call the bailouts for the rogue gambling bankers socializing the debt.

In other words we pay their debt to help them out of the problem they created.

Scorn poured on that act of socialism is understandable. Those bankers are bad socialists as they do not help the rest in return. The balance is broken.

Instead they wanted more and took large bonuses and also further in rodes into the public purse for trillions which you will be hearing about as it is hot news, but not in the papers they own.

Insurance is a form of socialism where contributions are shared to assist the unfortunate. Mutual insurance companies share among the clients whereas other private Insurance companies take out a profit which goes to the company owners. Mutual Insurance is often cheaper and fairer as there is not the same motivation to do ripoffs.

Socialism is hardly a term of scorn but some actions deserve scorn where they are unfair.

Democracy similarly is an abused word. Feedom is another.

[-] 3 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

I totally agree. Great synopsis. Socialism can work on many levels and in many ways and doesn't mean taking from one group to give to a group that is lazy.... but that's what a lot of people think it is.... ignorantly.

[-] 1 points by nguqua (4) 2 years ago

'Socialism can work on many levels and in many ways and doesn't mean taking from one group to give to a group that is lazy... ' In socialism regimes, it is normal to takes (many...) from the public to 'contribute ' to the leaders & their subbordinate leaders. In reality, the most rich leaders (& their relatives) are in communist countries.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Socialism and communism aren't the same thing. Socialism works very well in Norway, Finland, France, and other countries. Communism isn't even bad. It's the corrupt and greedy who start to run things in these environments who turn their countries into dictatorships. Most countries that claim or that have claimed to be communist actually are/were dictatorships. The actual problem is greed and corruption but not the socialism or communism.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

Socialism kills ambition.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Right. Tell that to countries that successfully have a combination of socialism AND ambition AND the highest standards of living on the planet AND the happiest people!!!!

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

Which countries?

[-] 2 points by derek (302) 2 years ago

Great summary.

See also the section of "Human Resources" here by Noam Chomsky about 5:30 in on how both the USA and USSR talked about socialism (against and for) but neither was really talking about socialism (both being authoritarian-leaning societies using socialism to refer to the totalitarianism in the USSR, the west trying to discredit socialism, and the Bolsheviks to gain the credit associated with genuine socialism, and so the term socialism has been degraded to mean the form of totalitarianism instituted by Lenin and carried on by Stalin): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-4Hv9pDicA

Right now in the USA, as you point out, we have the worst form of socialism, where profits are privatized but costs and risks (like pollution or systemic financial risk) are socialized. It's not an issue of whether or not to have "socialism"; the issue is what kind of socialism we have.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

There is only socialism and it stinks.

[-] 1 points by derek (302) 2 years ago

Maybe. :-) But then why are people in much of "socialistic" Western Europe so much happier and better off than people in the USA? http://occupywallst.org/forum/americas-exploding-pipe-dream-by-charles-m-blow-of/

Even the unrest there shows a healthier society where people still expect to have some rights or expect to be listened to when they protest in the streets. And the parts of Europe not working have a lot to do with the free market and banks going wrong.

[-] 0 points by raines (699) 2 years ago

Happier? Have you surveyed them?

[-] 1 points by derek (302) 2 years ago

The ones I know in Western Europe, yes. And yes, surveys bear that up. People in the USA don't know how bad off they are in lots of ways, whether it is lack of bicycle paths, lack of quality health care (for many, even with health insurance), lack of midwives, lack of good roads, lack of walkable towns, lack of decent infrastructure, worries about crime, long hours at jobs, low pay (for many), lack of pollution controls, lack of controls over food quality, junk added to food and water, fears about the financial future, lack of good mass transit widely used and not seen as only for the destitute, lack of good cell phone coverage or fiber to the home, lack of parks, lack of affordable housing, lack of respect for the skilled trades, lack of strong community, lack of accountable government, and so on.

The USA does have some good things about it (for example, better integration of different ethnicities than Europe, so it's still better to be an immigrant in the USA than an immigrant in Europe). US universities are generally better in terms of being a more freethinking in the top ones (but not always). There are high rates of youth unemployment in parts of Western Europe (mostly related to neoliberal economics exported from the USA). The USA has strengths from its cultural diversity and vast amounts of land. And no doubt there are other things in the USA's favor.

So, Western Europe is far from perfect, even if overall people are happier there. Still, when you consider what Western Europe recovered from (the devastation of WWII) and that it is a crowded place already deforested and mined out (unlike the USA with lots of natural resources) it is amazing how poorly the USA is doing. What went wrong?

See also, for great statistics: http://www.gapminder.org/

Or: "Germany's workers have higher productivity, shorter hours and greater quality of life. How did we get it so wrong?" http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2010/08/25/german_usa_working_life_ext2010

Germany got many of those benefits because the USA put them in place in the 1950s (back when people in the USA still understood what was possible with good government).

Or see: "How Dutch women got to be the happiest in the world" http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/08/19/the-feminismhappiness-axis/

Take a look at this chart linked here on how the US compares to elsewhere: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/opinion/blow-americas-exploding-pipe-dream.html?_r=2

Direct link to the chart: http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/10/29/opinion/29blow-ch.html?ref=opinion

Just think about what it means that most people in the USA are one paycheck away from financial disaster. Or think about this in regards to the USA: http://feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/hunger-facts/hunger-and-poverty-statistics.aspx "In 2009, 15.5 million (20.7 percent) children under the age of 18 were in poverty. ... In 2010, 48.8 million Americans lived in food insecure households, 32.6 million adults and 16.2 million children."

There is lots more out there along those lines. Or see about a UN report from a couple years ago: http://web.archive.org/web/20071019031111/http://adbusters.org/the_magazine/71/Generation_Fcked_How_Britain_is_Eating_Its_Young.html "“The reason our children’s lives [in the UK] are the worst among economically advanced countries is because we are a poor version of the USA,” he said. “So the USA comes second from bottom and we follow behind. The age of neo-liberalism, even with the human face that New Labour has given it, cannot stem the tide of the social recession capitalism creates.” "

There are of course many people in the USA who are satisfied with their lives. Surprisingly, it is often not the 1%. See: "The Culture of Affluence: Psychological Costs of Material Wealth" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1950124/

And: "Children of the Affluent: Challenges to Well-Being" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1948879/

Makes you realize how crazy some of the 1% are. Most people don't intentionally become financially obese without being pretty extreme. And staying financially obese is corrosive of one's morality and spirituality, even though it is encouraged out of fear. Even the 1% might be better off with a "basic income" for all: http://www.livableincome.org/amillionairegli.htm

Happiness often rests more on social capital and cultural capital than physical capital; see: http://www.inspirationalstories.com/3/302.html

And: http://worlddatabaseofhappiness.eur.nl/hap_nat/nat_fp.php?cntry=35&name=United%20States&mode=3

Part of that is just a law of diminishing returns on more goods and services: http://science.slashdot.org/story/10/09/07/1519221/Researchers-Say-Happiness-Costs-75k

But the sacrifice of community, family, and self-development through hobbies in exchange for more personal goods remains after we have enough stuff and really hurts individual happiness, since much of happiness comes from good relationships with other people, with nature, with healthy traditions, with ourselves, and with other things bigger than ourselves.

[-] 0 points by mattjiggy (31) from Durham, NC 2 years ago

Socialism necessitates totalitarianism because people must be forced to produce more than they consume, a necessary evil to ensure provision for those who consume more than they produce.

[-] 1 points by derek (302) 2 years ago

That is less and less true as our systems of production produce more and more with less and less input and as people reach the laws of diminishing (or negative) returns for more goods and services. http://marshallbrain.com/robotic-freedom.htm

And work can be organized in various ways as JohnWa pointed out, or E.F. Schumacher did: http://www.smallisbeautiful.org/buddhist_economics/english.html "The Buddhist point of view takes the function of work to be at least threefold: to give man a chance to utilise and develop his faculties; to enable him to overcome his ego-centredness by joining with other people in a common task; and to bring forth the goods and services needed for a becoming existence. Again, the consequences that flow from this view are endless. To organise work in such a manner that it becomes meaningless, boring, stultifying, or nerve-racking for the worker would be little short of criminal; it would indicate a greater concern with goods than with people, an evil lack of compassion and a soul-destroying degree of attachment to the most primitive side of this worldly existence. Equally, to strive for leisure as an alternative to work would be considered a complete misunderstanding of one of the basic truths of human existence, namely that work and leisure are complementary parts of the same living process and cannot be separated without destroying the joy of work and the bliss of leisure."

And work requiring thought and creativity (as more and more work does, with machines to do the work) actually generally suffers in quality when done for material gain: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

Many people like to do productive things, if they are working around people they respect and trust and feel they are participating in decisions, and growing in skills, and doing things they find meaningful. Modern tools let even just a few people who like to do stuff produce immense amount of products. I've met a bunch of people who just wanted to farm, no matter how hard it is, or how little it pays, but could not because land was too expensive. Look at all the people who contribute to Wikipedia or GNU/Linux or blogs.

So, if what you said has been true in the past, it is less and less true in the 21st century. And in any case, we all pay a lot of taxes now in the USA, and have very little to show for it. At least in places like Finland or the Netherlands, you can point to the free or cheap college, the universal health care, the great libraries, the good roads everywhere, the quality day care, the protection for new parents, and so on. What can we point to in the USA that we are really getting for our taxes except a huge military, a huge prison system, failing schools, and agricultural subsidies for the unhealthiest foods? http://www.seriouseats.com/2007/11/the-subsidized-food-pyramid.html

A lot of work can be redefined to be more enjoyable if we redesign it, like Bob Black suggests: http://idlenest.freehostia.com/mirror/www.whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/abolition.html

Is the USA not already totalitarian in most ways that matter? As Bob Black wrote in the essay above at whywork.org: "Work makes a mockery of freedom. The official line is that we all have rights and live in a democracy. Other unfortunates who aren't free like we are have to live in police states. These victims obey orders or else, no matter how arbitrary. The authorities keep them under regular surveillance. State bureaucrats control even the smaller details of everyday life. The officials who push them around are answerable only to higher-ups, public or private. Either way, dissent and disobedience are punished. Informers report regularly to the authorities. All this is supposed to be a very bad thing. And so it is, although it is nothing but a description of the modern workplace. The liberals and conservatives and Libertarians who lament totalitarianism are phonies and hypocrites. There is more freedom in any moderately de-Stalinized dictatorship than there is in the ordinary American workplace. You find the same sort of hierarchy and discipline in an office or factory as you do in a prison or a monastery. In fact, as Foucault and others have shown, prisons and factories came in at about the same time, and their operators consciously borrowed from each other's control techniques. A worker is a part-time slave. The boss says when to show up, when to leave, and what to do in the meantime. He tells you how much work to do and how fast. He is free to carry his control to humiliating extremes, regulating, if he feels like it, the clothes you wear or how often you go to the bathroom. With a few exceptions he can fire you for any reason, or no reason. He has you spied on by snitches and supervisors, he amasses a dossier on every employee. Talking back is called "insubordination," just as if a worker is a naughty child, and it not only gets you fired, it disqualifies you for unemployment compensation."

Not all workplaces are that bad, but many are.

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

Good post! Very interesting ideas. I don't quite follow everything you said at the beginning but I'll look into it further and I still need to check your links.

[-] 1 points by derek (302) 2 years ago

Thanks for the reply. The point I was trying to make at the beginning was that whether a society has to "force" people to work relates to the nature of the work and how fun it is, how productive our tools are, and how much we think we need. You can take the notion of force out of the system by making work into play (Bob Black), by making tools more productive (improved automation or better design), or by accepting some reasonable limits on our material aspirations. On the last, how many cars do people really need, how big do their houses have to be, how many different shoes do they need, and so on, given that everything that you own owns you -- unless you hire people to tend them for you, and at that point are you really the "owner" of such things anyway? The environmental ethic of "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle" suggests getting by with less materially too. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs suggests that after people have the basics, they move on to more abstract things, like self-actualization, which often is fairly inexpensive, because it involves actively creating and helping rather than consuming.

Many materially wealthy people are unhappy by the way, but no one wants to talk about it because it is hard to have sympathy for the 1% as they make not just everyone else but also themselves and their children suffer: "The Culture of Affluence: Psychological Costs of Material Wealth" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1950124/

"Children of the Affluent: Challenges to Well-Being" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1948879/

Prof. G. William Domhoff suggest forming "Egalitarian Democratic Clubs" to take over the Democratic Party in the same way the Tea Party took over the Republicans and got 100 legislators elected who support their agenda. OWS could eventually do something like that, essentially "occupy" the Democratic party: http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/change/science_freshstart.html

Many of the 1% might even be happy to support such clubs (consider Warren Buffet who talks about the problems of the concentration of wealth). Or a "basic income" might make sense even for millionaires who are concerned about their own children's future since many children of the wealthy may not be good with money themselves: http://www.livableincome.org/amillionairegli.htm

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

What you say here echoes everything I've been trying to convey in a post I wrote further down this page that begins with, "Put simply, I believe the whole movement worldwide..." but the the part that really coincides with this post is the continuation directly below this first post that begins, "STAGE 2 Restructuring the global social/economic structure..."

The point you clarified for me is something I envisioned within the idea of a societal structure I describe below. It doesn't present a lot of detail, but a forum is hardly the place for that, considering the allowable length for each post. I sincerely hope people will be open enough to take a serious look at transitioning society in ways that benefit the whole. I can clearly depict such a society and earnestly believe, we could sway the masses had we only the disposal of the media, a podium and a well pressed suit.

[-] 1 points by betsydoula (143) from Beverly Hills, FL 2 years ago

We live in a global society, and more and more people realize we are all connected. It has taken this financial crisis to wake up the sheeple. The current system is unsustainable. When people can not feed themselves and their families, how will they continue to support this consumer economy? I too envision a world where what matters to me is you and vice versa. From Derek above, "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs suggests that after people have the basics, they move on to more abstract things, like self-actualization, which often is fairly inexpensive, because it involves actively creating and helping rather than consuming." Imagine if we created and helped everyday? How many things to we need and how many millions does one need to make? How does this contribute anything to society? How does this contribute to individual or collective happiness?? It is time for new systems, where people matter, and money does not trump the basic needs of people. Check out www.freeworldcharter.org. They have a video that talks about a world without money. It isn't really the money that is the problem, it is human beings who are using money to perpetuate a system where millions of people go hungry, and millions of people have no access to medical care, just to name two major system flaws. Money is the tool but it is people using the tool. People need to change, people need to realize that we are all together and headed toward self-destruction. I don't believe we need to sway the masses because they will jump aboard the Occupy train when they realize they are not the 1%. We must start teaching our children about how to be a human. Another great link to check out on an amazing school doing just that http://coopcatalyst.wordpress.com/2011/11/01/real-education-is-human/

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

Wow! I can't believe I'm reading this! I'm also familar with Maslow's hierarchy. You should read this novel I've been working on, titled, "The World of Tomorrow." in it I describe a world that runs without money; automation has taken over majority of the work - leaving people with less than six months of required work a year - which is designed to allow people moving around and changing occupations frequently; computer databases and networks that organize our supply and demand - which is now delegated by people's online orders not forced advertising, recycling is a given, the list goes on... Basically I describe a society that has adopted the moto, " We do what we must to have all of our needs and requests met." This is what defines how much work there is to do and, divided equally, that is how much work they do... No more, no less.

[-] 0 points by cmt (1195) from Tolland, CT 2 years ago

Ever read "Looking Backward" by Bellamy?

[-] 1 points by JohnWa (510) 2 years ago

An interesting thought and you must have a context in which you see this happening.

Trade can fulfill much the same role and that can be by fair exchange or if money is used a fair price can be set after agreement.

The market does not always do that and the tyranny commonly lies with extortion by a controlling party. The no rules hands off market is a playgound for megamoney to set up conditions for extortion. Corporations avoid competition with behind the scenes agreements and common capital.

We have an oligarchy underpinned by power gained from wealth unfairly taken from those who produced that wealth, the consumer and worker usually.

In developing countries people are poor so work for very little. Importers capitalize on this and buy goods very cheaply, transport them often using valuable energy which adds nothing to the produce and so is wasted, and sell those goods here undercutting the local production resulting in unemployment.

This activity is not controlled to assist local production and workers but is given free reign to fill the pockets of the 1%. The consumer addicted to buy buy buy, influenced by the advertising appealing to unreal images of luxury and social competition. We are suckers . All the junk has been shown NOT to produce happiness, fills our rubbish piles and wastes precious global resources.

Free market and global trade allow destruction of local communities for the profit of a few.

Eventually as we have seen with Japan, the wealth created by low cost labor creating consumer goods gradually over time can increase the standard of living and wages in that historically low wage country.

japan once sold cheap goods to the World but now the quick rise on wealth has resulted in stagnation when combined with their exploitation of environmental resources. Also the western style of consumer life has led them into a trap. Energy demands made by western style living are not sustainable. Japan is buying coal from anywhere and dumping it into the sea forming stock piles for years to come. They know they are in trouble with future energy. The folly of nuclear power has recently given them a nip but long term they know is not an answer. Much of japan now want to abandon Nuclear as it is too risky. [also nuclear waste products seem an unsolvable problem ]

Had a simpler and perhaps poorer life been maintained then their future may have been brighter. That is a Japanese viewpoint.

But the mass production with cheap labor feeding a high rate of consumerism in a country with excess money, is a senario that will come to an end as natural resources are used up and prices for metals, energy, plastics and food rises.

Many forms of organisation has been seen in countries and governments.

In Italy cooperatives seem to be working very well in some cities with a high index of happiness for those involved.

The Emilia Romagna province has topped the happiness index in a world survey. That has been put down to the high number of worker owned cooperatives [ 8 to 10 thousand cooperatives ] each run on the lines of cooperative democracy. The firms or organisations have worker input to all decision making and dividends are paid to all workers with those who choose to invest money paid for that as well.

The outcome is that all levels of the company seem to have higher levels of satisfaction , production is high as the workers have a stake in how well it operates.

http://econfix.wordpress.com/2011/08/20/cooperation-rules-in-the-italian-province-of-emilia-romagna/

Decision making sees worker family welfare being included in company activity. A family sort of atmosphere. This is not dreamland it is social democracy at work.

Inherently most people are good at heart and enjoy helping others and being supported by the group. There is no place for dog eat dog mentality.

The totalitarianism you mention is not inevitable. I see it has happened in many places where the people have lost control over a few with power or a system of organisation is set up where reference back to the people at all stages, is lacking.

Nothing is set in concrete and things can be changed but the people must have systems of feedback that can set right imbalances.

We have a massive capture of USA by a small group in power who do not listen and have taken control of the wealth and system of Govt. Only 48% vote now as it is seen as hopeless.

The 1% own all parties. The media cannot be trusted any longer to show all sides of a debate as they are owned by the 1%.

We have what looks very much like an effective totalitarian system in place and that surely is what OWS is reacting against.

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

Wow! Excellent post! Any chance you'd try getting that published in every newspaper and magazine across the continent? And broadcast on every media station?

[-] 0 points by PreserveLiberty (7) 2 years ago

OWSers would be thinned from the herd. When more people are in the wagon than those pulling it, the group dies.

[-] 1 points by derek (302) 2 years ago

Technology makes the wagon easier to pull by less and less people.

Which is part of the reason we need a "basic income" or other deep structural reform to deal with a decreasing need for "work": http://econfuture.wordpress.com/2010/10/19/robots-jobs-and-our-assumptions/

http://www.basicincome.org/bien/aboutbasicincome.html

http://educationanddemocracy.org/FSCfiles/C_CC2a_TripleRevolution.htm

And the more people thinking about technology, the better it gets: http://www.juliansimon.com/writings/Ultimate_Resource/

As long as we don't put all the ingenuity into creating weapons or wasteful competition or stifling bureaucracy or other transactions of decline.

[-] 1 points by JohnWa (510) 2 years ago

Agreed

And it is in the interest of the 1% to use every ploy they can muster to thin out the OWS movement.

As the injustices with the 1% Oligarchy continue then reason fo protest will continue.

Peace is a result of understanding. Division in our society will not go away until fairness allows understanding.

What would you suggest will strengthen the unity or the OWS movement. It is now a world wide phenomena.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

What he said is not true.

Libertarianism can be traced back to ancient China, where philosopher Lao-tzu advocated the recognition of individual liberties. The modern libertarian theory emerged in the sixteenth century through the writings of Etienne de La Boetie (1530–1563), an eminent French theorist. In the seventeenth century, John Locke and a group of British reformers known as the Levellers fashioned the classical basis for libertarianism with well-received philosophies on human nature and economics.

This is my immediate response but I will listen fully and reply again later.

[-] 1 points by nguqua (4) 2 years ago

Theory of socialism had already convinced may young people (in my country, Vietnam after WW 2), however, ...in reality, socialism is the most horible induction to our society. take time to learn from this link http://vimeo.com/12057428

[-] 1 points by rEVOLUTION (14) 2 years ago

The problem with your definition of Libertarian is that it doesn't address (perhaps intentionally) corporate personhood. If "all men [citizens] are created equal" but some "persons" hold disproportional influence over our representativers both local and national then that is neither Libertarianism nor Socialism. It is Corruption.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Agreed and we are to blame for allowing it to happen, people should of stood up to this corruption long ago not waited until we are where we are today.

I'm in my thirties now and my world view has changed more then I would have ever imagined it would while in my teens and early twenties. Then I didn't understand the world I was not interested in the meaning of words so much but now I wonder about my legacy what would make me special to anybody or why someone would cry for me on my death bed and at this time in my life I feel standing by the sidelines watching it all unfold is unacceptable I must protect my views of freedom.

"I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time, so that my children can live in peace." ~Thomas Paine

[-] 1 points by rEVOLUTION (14) 2 years ago

What I've learned in my 37 years is that all unchecked Power, whether it is socialist or capitalist or fascist or marxist or anythingist, grows corrupt. What I think Americans on the left, right and middle, are protesting is the dehumanizing effects of consumerism and the corporate hostile-takeover of government. I like checks and balances whether they are capitialist or socialist.

[-] 1 points by PincheCabron (131) 2 years ago

How is Libertarianism "extreme"? It's arguably more moderate and "American" than either Republican or Democrat ideology.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

fixed

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

An extreme laissez-faire, not as in extremist.

I don't believe in the extreme part so much but if you google "Define libertarianism" That will be the definition you get, just wanted to get the point across but I will change it.

[-] 1 points by PincheCabron (131) 2 years ago

Thank you.

[-] 1 points by SSJHilscher (75) from Madison, WI 2 years ago

Idiot.

[-] -1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

If you believe those two words go together then yes, yes you are.

By the way intelligent rebuttal.

[-] 2 points by metapolitik (1110) 2 years ago

Spoken like someone who is truly uneducated.

FYI, there are different forms of both Capitalism and Socialism.

Example: Bailing out banks is a form of Corporate Socialism.

Ever heard the expression:

"Socialism for the rich, Capitalism for the poor"?

That's what we have right now. We need to turn those tables.

[-] 1 points by derek (302) 2 years ago

Well said.

[-] -1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Using dictionary definitions in uneducated?...

Interesting, wonder what Freud would say? Some mother issues perhaps?

[-] 1 points by metapolitik (1110) 2 years ago

That's even funnier because I did not use a dictionary definition.

And leave my mother out of this.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

I used definitions...

Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. ~Benjamin Franklin

[-] 1 points by metapolitik (1110) 2 years ago

You just said that:

"Using dictionary definitions in uneducated..."

Now your saying that's what you did.

If you read more, maybe you wouldn't need to look everything up.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

I asked a question citing dictionary definitions and you replied with "Spoken like someone who is truly uneducated."

Do you not read what you post?

[-] 1 points by metapolitik (1110) 2 years ago

Your post reads (and I quote):

"If you believe those two words go together then yes, yes you are. By the way intelligent rebuttal."

...Where, in either of those sentences do you provide a link or a "dictionary definition"?

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

scroll up to the top posts.

"By what definition of Libertarian can it be used with socialism?"

[-] 1 points by metapolitik (1110) 2 years ago

Yawn... What a deliberately tedious conversation this was.

Battling trolls is thirsty work.

[-] 1 points by SSJHilscher (75) from Madison, WI 2 years ago

Thanks, moron.

[-] 1 points by SocratesPhilosophy (231) 2 years ago

Nice rebuttal, is this what they mean when they call someone "educated" on here?

[Deleted]

[-] 2 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

I would not trust chemical thc. Organic soil grown buds only. The point is to cure and prevent disease, not create new ones. Who knows what these new designer drugs will do long term? I don't care about legal, I care about healthy for me and the planet.

[-] 1 points by Diplomacy4Evry1 (123) 2 years ago

Oh boy, here we go... Seriously man, we have bigger concerns than anything drug related at the moment. Stand by the freedom movement, ignoring your impulses for the moment, and you will see the day when you'll be free to do as you please. So long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else or your contribution to society.

[-] 1 points by mserfas (652) from Ashland, PA 2 years ago

Tens of billions, if not more, go to the cartels, and a vastly greater amount is wasted in enforcement and prison and hospital and morgue along the way. A junkie steals your copper pipes and costs you $5,000 in repairs, sells them for $100, buys dope worth $10 wholesale ... gets sent to prison for $30,000 for two years. That's the kind of leverage drug money exerts. For drug users to purchase a product like this is clearly better than supporting a murderous cartel, yet... a synthetic THC with unknown chemical quirks can scarcely be recommended. Why not instead spend the time reading over the remarkable news items mentioned on the OWS site?

[-] 0 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

If you had a brain you would be able to determine that the most important issue is drugs. For freedom, for the economy, for jobs, for the environment, to stop gang violence, LEGAL DRUGS!!!! Get it? Got? I doubt it.