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We kick the ass of the ruling class

Enacting the Impossible (On Consensus Decision Making)

Posted 2 years ago on Oct. 29, 2011, 9:55 p.m. EST by David-Graeber

Washington Square General Assembly
TO THE VILLAGE: With a large college and high school student contingent, occupiers from all over the city have repeatedly marched to Washington Square where at least two general assemblies have convened. PHOTO: Stephen O’Byrne

On August 2, 2011 at the very first meeting of what was to become Occupy Wall Street, about a dozen people sat in a circle in Bowling Green. The self-appointed “process committee” for a social movement we merely hoped would someday exist, contemplated a momentous decision. Our dream was to create a New York General Assembly: the model for democratic assemblies we hoped to see spring up across America. But how would those assemblies actually operate?

The anarchists in the circle made what seemed, at the time, an insanely ambitious proposal. Why not let them operate exactly like this committee: by consensus.

It was, in the least, a wild gamble, because as far as any of us knew, no one had ever managed to pull off something like this before. Consensus process had been successfully used in spokes-councils  —  groups of activists organized into separate affinity groups, each represented by a single “spoke” — but never in mass assemblies like the one anticipated in New York City. Even the General Assemblies in Greece and Spain had not attempted it. But consensus was the approach that most accorded with our principles. So we took the leap.

Three months later, hundreds of assemblies, big and small, now operate by consensus across America. Decisions are made democratically, without voting, by general assent. According to conventional wisdom this shouldn’t be possible, but it is happening  —  in much the same way that other inexplicable phenomena like love, revolution, or life itself (from the perspective of, say, particle physics) happen.

The direct democratic process adopted by Occupy Wall Street has deep roots in American radical history. It was widely employed in the civil rights movement and by the Students for a Democratic Society. But its current form has developed from within movements like feminism and even spiritual traditions (both Quaker and Native American) as much as from within anarchism itself. The reason direct, consensus-based democracy has been so firmly embraced by and identified with anarchism is because it embodies what is perhaps anarchism’s most fundamental principle: that in the same way human beings treated like children will tend to act like children, the way to encourage human beings to act like mature and responsible adults is to treat them as if they already are.

Consensus is not a unanimous voting system; a “block” is not a No vote, but a veto. Think of it as the intervention of a High Court that declares a proposal to be in violation of fundamental ethical principles — except in this case the judge’s robes belong to anyone with the courage to throw them on. That participants know they can instantly stop a deliberation dead in its tracks if they feel it a matter of principle, not only means they rarely do it. It also means that a compromise on minor points becomes easier; the process toward creative synthesis is really the essence of the thing. In the end, it matters less how a final decision is reached—by a call for blocks or a majority show hands—provided everyone was able to play a part in helping to shape and reshape it.

We may never be able to prove, through logic, that direct democracy, freedom and a society based on principles of human solidarity are possible. We can only demonstrate it through action. In parks and squares across America, people have begun to witness it as they have started to participate. Americans grow up being taught that freedom and democracy are our ultimate values, and that our love of freedom and democracy is what defines us as a people—even as, in subtle but constant ways, we’re taught that genuine freedom and democracy can never truly exist.

The moment we realize the fallacy of this teaching, we begin to ask: how many other “impossible” things might we pull off? And it is there, it is here, that we begin enacting the impossible.


This article was written by David Graeber for the Occupied Wall Street Journal.

351 Comments

351 Comments


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[-] 6 points by natester (5) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Regardless of what becomes of the movement, it has inspired me beyond anything else that has happened to me or around me in my lifetime. Thanks to the 6 people that began this.

[-] 6 points by johnis48 (72) 2 years ago

Let me say that the one thing this whole movement has done more than anything, is put the word, "Hope", Back in the minds of millions of people world wide." Hope" that things must change for the good of all mankind.

[-] 3 points by RogerT (36) 2 years ago

People in Liberty Plaza don't see a sign saying Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here-- they are very hopeful-- but they need more concrete demands-- such as bringing our troops home from all over the world. The billions the Gov wants to spend on beefing up a military presence in Kuwait and Africa should go to job creation at home not to the military-industrial complex. Let's hope we can reach a consensus on demands such as this.

[-] 1 points by jayraow (1) 2 years ago

bring troops home? how do you suppose we protect afghan women from the taliban?

[-] 1 points by RogerT (36) 2 years ago

We are not protecting them now. It is not the task of the US Army to protect Afghan women from Afghan men. This is a cultural problem they have to work out themselves. There are many ways the US can help improve Afghan lives and the lives of Afghan women but shooting their menfolk is not one of them.

[-] 1 points by lisa (425) 2 years ago

The Afghan Taliban said the would negotiate a power share with Karzai if and when US troops leave. They do not want to live in the cities, they are happy to live in the provinces they have traditionally held, in farm and tribal areas. Give the locals the choice to live in Taliban provinces or in Traditional transitional governmental provinces. They can choose the way of life they want. (the progressive westernized transitional govt. cultured life, or the caliphate inspired and designed live that the Taliban live). Think of it like this, here in this country we have the Indian Reservations, on their land in those places, they are their own government and rulers.

Would be the same in the Taliban dominated provinces. Helmand is their home, it will always be as are some of the other other provinces. Let them maintain their village values.

We cannot change hundreds of years of cultural customs with ten years of occupying a country. Even in Pakistan, all the fighters from the Soviet War had settled into the hills and mountains while life went on in the cities. There was no war in Pakistan till we arrived. Once we leave, they go back to managing their country. The same will happen in Afghanistan.

[-] 1 points by th3wai (4) 2 years ago

I think this whole article is pretty suspect. There is no mention in this article, or anywhere on this site, about the new Spokes Council and the debate that is raging inside Liberty Square. The consensus process is amazing but the General Assembly has now lost it's power. Why would anyone in this movement, which is pro-democracy and pro-consensus, repeatedly bring up a proposal after it was already blocked and which is very divisive?

On the left we always have to guard what's occurred in the past frequently: takeovers by the vanguard left (or the police) that infiltrates the process and pushes an agenda. I hope that this site can work to better reflect the debates that happen inside this movement. Openness and debate only makes us stronger!

[-] 1 points by johnis48 (72) 2 years ago

Very true Roger and I believe as time goes forward the list of demands will become more clear.And yes bring our troops home and quit using wars as a way to help keep people employed. Let's use the wealth of the people to build a better world.

[-] 2 points by JFKINAZ (2) 2 years ago

ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE! Set a clear list of demands with brave leaders and spokespersons. Tell the special interests to get out of Washington and take their special interest money with them. Limit the peoples branch, Congress, to two terms max, and set a financial cap on publicly funded elections. Progress can occur then. We dont have to reinvent the wheel here, JUST FIX IT!

[-] 2 points by foundingbaby (15) 2 years ago

And argue for legislation within the current system or nothing will be accomplished.

[-] 1 points by ediblescape (235) 2 years ago

how about replace the capitalism with Wilkism as wikipedia did for encyclopedia.

[-] 1 points by blueheron (2) 2 years ago

Amen to that suggestion.

[-] 1 points by johnis48 (72) 2 years ago

Yes agreed,

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Nothing is possible if OWS refuses to nominate candidates.

[-] 1 points by foundingbaby (15) 2 years ago

And argue for legislation within the current system or nothing will be accomplished.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

You are naive and ridiculous. The current system is completely bribed.

[-] 1 points by blueheron (2) 2 years ago

You are impractical and not productive.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Being wrong for 20 years

I was raised in a family that followed politics and current events. We discussed politics and current events almost every day. I traded stocks since I was 15 years old so economics was crucial for me like golf was crucial to Tiger Woods since he was 3 years old. I knew about Ross Perot before he brought EDS (Electronic Data Systems) public and made a fortune. I knew all about Ronald Reagan and Reaganomics and Paul Volker, and the monetary policy of Milton Friedman because I developed a hedging system for interest rates using Treasury futures in 1979 when I was hired to use that system which worked.

My point is that I'm an informed, intelligent person who has real experience with real money and real profits and losses. When Ross Perot campaigned for being president I worked in his campaign because I knew that when Perot said that, "If NAFTA is passed by George Bush that America would hear a giant sucking sound." I never imagined that Clinton who was financed by the unions would pass NAFTA for George Bush right after Clinton got inaugurated but he did. I knew that Clinton was a liar when he claimed he didn't inhale his pot or he'd have to be the dumbest bastard who ever lived.

read more http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/

[-] 2 points by sylrse (38) 2 years ago

I fully agree- over the years I've been watching how our current gov't system slowly push aside what now is commonly called the 99%, and wondered where it would end. How OWS will evolve is still a mystery, yet they have set the spark, igniting the nation, and the world. By giving everyone a voice, hope is renewed, and everyone is empowered to shape their world.

[-] 1 points by johnis48 (72) 2 years ago

And hope will lead the masses to a positive change.

[-] 1 points by mee44 (71) 2 years ago

We have systemic failures everywhere. Washington DC's answer: more system!

Don't you ever wonder why the more the government does, the worse things get?

[-] 1 points by farmrdave (3) 2 years ago

No need to wonder about that , it is a law of nature. More government = less freedom.

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

No I wonder why you 99% keep voting to reelect them taking bribes in broad day light. You 99% are dummies.

[-] 1 points by Travlingypsy (7) 2 years ago

So are the rest of us for letting this go on for so long. Blame yourself and you won't be a victim anymore.

[-] 1 points by hlneville (0) 2 years ago

Absolutely - and well said!

[-] -1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Glenn,

If OWS fails to nominate candidates for the 2012 election, this protest is a monumental waste of time. Sitting in the park whining and demanding is howling at the moon. Depending on a bribed government for justice or anything fair is idiotic.

On 11/8 when you address the OWS movement I will attempt to draft you to be the OWS candidate for the 2012 election. Jon Stewart, Michael Moore, and Steven Colbert need to get on the ballot to run for the Senate of NJ & NY. The unions can bank roll the party and I will run for the CT 4th district Green Party.

Liberals better start waking up to reality and quit voting for bribed Democrats.

Steve http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/

Media interviewing nitwits to be president

The media decisions to interview morons, nitwits, and imbeciles who make irrational claims over and over and over again would have no audience if Americans weren't in a deep trance. The OWS decision to not nominate candidates who could easily win elections against every incumbent in office is a ridiculous mistake.

America is doomed. America is too lovable to let it be destroyed

[-] 1 points by bpmangan (123) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Have you ever heard of Buddy Roehmer? He was Governor and a Representative of Louisiana. He's running for the Republican nomination and his primary platform is campaign finance corruption. He has refused to accept any donation higher than 100 dollars. He hasn't been able to get enough of the vote to even merit a spot in the debates. It's impossible to fight a system against bribes when the system requires that money to even be able to compete.

[-] 0 points by Pulseguy (1) 2 years ago

You think OWS could easily elections against every incumbent in office?

That is funny.

[-] -1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Its funny? They are all taking bribes. That's not funny.

You people are throwing in a pat hand because all of you think your smart. Too bad all of you are uninformed and don't know how to play the game. That's why OWS is sitting in the park losing.

[-] -1 points by A12B3C (0) 2 years ago

OWS will get NO ONE on the ballot for 2012 and to think you can is laughable. You're all mostly concerned with fighting over drum circles, begging for 'free' stuff, shouting obscenities at law enforcement, teaching people how to make paper airplanes (hilarious), telling people to dress up in funny outfits and scare bankers, did I mention begging for free stuff?

Oh, and as if the above weren't ridiculous enough, you refuse to share your FREE food with those less fortunate -- the homeless!

OWS = Heartless freaks!!!

[-] 1 points by bpmangan (123) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Have you been to Occupy Wall Street? I'm not saying you're statements are wrong if that's what you've seen there, but a lot of people have these kinds of opinions have not taken the time to show up and see what it's actually about. It's mostly about talking. I don't believe they did turn away the homeless, simply because the issue of homelessness is a large part of what they are trying to address. I might be wrong, but I highly recommend visiting one of these camps to verify that these kinds of things are true. If you have I apologize and think you should mention these things at a general assembly where I'm sure they will be addressed.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

We agree. Can you read? They are uninformed arrogant assholes who are throwing in a pat hand while they whine in the park.

[-] 0 points by A12B3C (0) 2 years ago

Well, not 'everyone'. Remember the homeless that OWS refused to share their donated food with?

I highly doubt you'll give them a 'voice' either. Afterall, if they're not good enough to share a meal with you, why would you let them have an opinion?

Hypocrites.

[-] 1 points by RogerT (36) 2 years ago

I think they did share the food and no one was turned away-- some of them were upset about it because some of the homeless were not really interested in helping the movement. They wanted to discuss it.

[-] 0 points by Pulseguy (1) 2 years ago

A12B3C....I agree.

[-] -1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

They only want opinions that agree with theirs.

[-] -1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

The 99% put them in office and they want to do it again.

That's as dumb as it gets.

[-] 1 points by tetontroll (2) 2 years ago

Steve - are you with us or against us? If yes, glad to have you - if no, you're becoming a pain in the ass.

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

If you bother to read my blog I keep referring to, your question would be foolish.-- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/

There is a reason for your question. If OWS GAVE ME A FAIR CHANCE TO SPEAK, there would be a huge benefit for the entire country except the 1%.

I tried 6 times to speak in the park. I'm unable to convey my message in 2 minutes. 1 hour would be difficult but I might make a dent.

[-] 0 points by RichardGates (1529) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

bloggers wanted http://citicommons.com

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

I'm a blogger. Take a look. -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/

[-] 0 points by RichardGates (1529) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

shoot me an email to the address at the bottom of that site i gave you?

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

I lost the site because I didn't see much.

Shoot me an email justfacts.steve@gmail.com

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Does this convince you? -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/

The Pentagon was hit b y a missile on 9/11

American Airlines Flight 77 crashed into the western side of the Pentagon at 09:37 EDT. All 64 people on board the aircraft, including the 5 hijackers, were killed, as were 125 people in the building. Dozens of people witnessed the crash and news sources began reporting on the incident within minutes. The impact severely damaged an area of the Pentagon and ignited a large fire. A portion of the Pentagon collapsed; firefighters spent days trying to fully extinguish the blaze.

Of course an investigation would have taken pictures of the remains of the plane. There would have been jet engines, hundreds of seats, the landing gear, pieces of luggage and bodies of the victims if the official story was true. The law suit by April Gallop who worked at the same spot of the explosion and claimed there was no sign of any plane was dismissed by Judge Denny Chin. Chin was then promoted from the SDNY district court to the 2nd Circuit. On appeal 2nd Circuit judge John M. Walker, Jr. sat on the panel. Walker is the cousin of President George Bush in a case filed against Cheney, Rumsfeld, and General Meyers.

Judge Chin's reason was that April Gallop is delusional. If the Boeing jet had truly crashed into the Pentagon, the pictures of the debris would have validated Chin's reason to dismiss the suit.

[-] 1 points by th3wai (4) 2 years ago

Last week we sat in the cold for over an hour debating how many fire extinguishers to buy. A rabbi next to me leaned over and said "isn't this the most beautiful thing you've ever seen?" It was. So I was sad to see that the general assembly agreed to hand all real power to the new spokes council. The spokes council will take over all financial decisions and the castrated GA is reduced to making 'declarations'. A real shame.

[-] 2 points by johnis48 (72) 2 years ago

That is a shame but with a movement that has no clear leader and so many groups and voices it will take time, until clear direction of how this movement will decide who and how all matters coming forth will be handled and by who's aurthority.

[-] 1 points by th3wai (4) 2 years ago

That's true, but there were a lot of objections in the general assembly during the vote on the SC and I got the feeling that the facilitators weren't impartial on this - they broke with process, refused friendly amendments, refused concerns and tried to rush the assembly to vote. Many people had serious concerns about the SC which haven't been addressed - such as having the power to kick out those who aren't "in solidarity with the movement" without having that defined. The GA is slow and frustrating and inefficient but it is, or rather was, an inspiring demonstration of direct democracy and our most powerful tool for reaching out to people.

[-] 1 points by nocasualobserver (21) 2 years ago

Beyond hope is a double entendre pregnant with meaning regardless of how you interpret it.

Beyond hope is an attitude of despair, hopelessness and resignation borne of not seeing the change you desire in the world.

Beyond hope is a transcendent state of mind that empowers us to take action to bring about the change we seek in the world.

When we embrace the latter meaning and move from hope to beyond hope (to action!), the former meaning loses its power.

[-] 1 points by jart (1145) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Hope is dead. Hope remains dead. And Obama killed it. There is no hope! Hoping is wishful thinking. Believing that the mere act of believing will make the world a better place is magical thinking.

Forget wishing for change, let's start CREATING change. It's time to get our hands dirty. It's time to start building a better world from the ashes of the old because the only solution is world revolution.

[-] 1 points by johnis48 (72) 2 years ago

Revolution, yes, But through using the voices and power of the masses. Change will happen, but it needs to be done in a legal way that all American's can take part in.

[-] 1 points by jart (1145) from New York, NY 2 years ago

There's a difference between revolution and reform.

[-] 1 points by penny01 (1) 2 years ago

Obama killed it? Please. Hope has been on life support since before Nixon. I'm glad the public is finally waking up.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

If you have a job go to it tomorrow and hope your work gets done. Can you get more lazy and more stupid?

Being wrong for 20 years -- read more -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/

I was raised in a family that followed politics and current events. We discussed politics and current events almost every day. I traded stocks since I was 15 years old so economics was crucial for me like golf was crucial to Tiger Woods since he was 3 years old. I knew about Ross Perot before he brought EDS (Electronic Data Systems) public and made a fortune. I knew all about Ronald Reagan and Reaganomics and Paul Volker, and the monetary policy of Milton Friedman because I developed a hedging system for interest rates using Treasury futures in 1979 when I was hired to use that system which worked.

My point is that I'm an informed, intelligent person who has real experience with real money and real profits and losses. When Ross Perot campaigned for being president I worked in his campaign because I knew that when Perot said that, "If NAFTA is passed by George Bush that America would hear a giant sucking sound." I never imagined that Clinton who was financed by the unions would pass NAFTA for George Bush right after Clinton got inaugurated but he did. I knew that Clinton was a liar when he claimed he didn't inhale his pot or he'd have to be the dumbest bastard who ever lived.

I've been waiting for a protest for more than a decade and finally we have OWS. When people finally got so pissed off they began to camp in the park in NYC I presumed they would be eager to do the only thing possible to combat the 50,000,000 jobs that were stolen from them to enrich the privileged. The only thing possible is to nominate candidates ready to defy "political correct" bribes that all politicians take to allow the trade policy, and the tax policy used by our elected government to steal those jobs and replace those American workers with slaves from different countries but primarily from China. It wasn't enough that American business would exploit Mexicans at $2 per hour, they wanted the work to be done for nothing.

If anybody wanted to bet me that I couldn't go to the park and convince the protestors to nominate candidates for the 2012 election to implement their demands, I would have gladly taken that bet. I make lots of bets and sometimes I lose those bets but I win most of my bets and a few times I've bet the ranch because I knew for a fact that I couldn't possibly lose. The only bet I needed to risk was the $18.50 cost of transportation I needed to spend to get to the park 6 times. I've been wrong 6 times on top of being wrong about the response I got from all the people on the OWS forum websites. I was finally blocked by the NYCGA for my arguments on their website by a bunch of liberals who falsely claim they are open to all ideas.

I know for a fact that most Americans aren't stupid. I know for a fact that all conservatives are stupid or they wouldn't be conservatives. Being wrong for more than 20 years is a long time to be wrong and not know it. Being self destructive sitting in the park and refusing to grasp the simple fact that unless a 3rd party is elected to congress that justice is never going to happen from an entire elected body who is taking bribes condoned by the United States Supreme Court; can only happen because they are all in a trance. They can't possibly be that stupid.

[-] 1 points by johnis48 (72) 2 years ago

Yes Steve I believe in a third party too. The biggest problem is that those who control the true wealth of this country and for that matter the world, well do all in their power to let a third party become a reality.The truth is it will take a major event to change the way those in power operate and OWS is a beginning to this and time with the help of millions of others will work to bring about the true changes needed to level the playing field for all.And like I've said before american's need to stop buying things with credit and start giving up all those items that support wall street to begin with. Thanks for your comment I liked it and think you have alot right in it.Keep your faith and keep talking to others things will change but it well take time.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Johnis, we have had huge events --9/11 the inside job, the mortgage meltdown, so the fact that you are waiting for a huge event puts you in a trance.

Political correctness has suspended the English language

read more -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/

Liars are called -- flip floppers. Bribes are called -- corporate money, donations, contributions. Bag nen are called -- lobbyists. Propaganda has put Americans into a deep trance that protects the crooks who take the bribes (Obama and congress) and the scammers who pay the bribes (corporate executives).

The only remedy that will work for OWS will be to nominate candidates and campaign to get them elected which will be absolutely guaranteed in 2012 because at least 70% of the American voters are pissed off. The trance was created by media propaganda that is obvious every day if people will look for it. OWS people are in the same trance that all other Americans have been put under. That trance has nothing to do with intelligence. The huge problem that must be remedied is to first consider that stupid, self destructive behavior must be caused by something, so let's consider the trance that manipulates intelligent people to use "political correct" language.

[-] 1 points by Travlingypsy (7) 2 years ago

I agree with you that we need to elect a 3rd party immediately. I tried to make this argument and start at local levels to get people into local offices that support the movement. No one was interested. I don't think they get it yet. They are in fight mode. I am pissed off and I am taking a stand and letting you know about it; which is good, but it isn't going to change much unless they figure out how to use the current system to change the current system. Since we can elect and remove anyone from office we all decide is not working in our favor I suggest we do it right now before the presidential election. I would hate to see all this force get lost because stayed in the I am angry and standing up for my rights phase. We need to move past it. I also proposed that we start town hall meetings in every ward/district inviting in local people to talk about the Occupy movement and what it wants to accomplish. No one was interested in that either. I think several things can happen at the same time. We can occupy as other bring local neighborhoods together as other elect 3 party people to run at every level. Maybe I am dreaming but why not use the functionality of the system to change the system?

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

The system is fine as it is. Use it.

You are sucking the entire deal down the drain with your fear.

[-] 1 points by johnis48 (72) 2 years ago

I agree that people have been blinded by right and wrong but at the same time I see that things are changing not just here but all over the world, but histroy has to change also not only do we the people need change but it must be done in a fashion as not to breed more or a different kind of corruption all together.. Greed is not bad in and of itself but how it was done and what is done with spoils of that greed is what can be changed. But I agree with several of your points and do believe the time for serious change is now and not tomorrow.

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Thank you.

[-] 1 points by Travlingypsy (7) 2 years ago

Greed is very bad in and of itself. It supports the statement, 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely'. I am baffled that you would think greed is not bad in and of itself. Of course it is. Greed: Excessive desire for more than one needs or deserves. "Men hate the individual whom they call avaricious only because nothing can be gained from him." - Voltaire

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Hope? If you ever get a job do you intend to hope your work will get done. Hope is stupid. Hope is what Obama kept saying and you elected the liar to be president.

[-] 1 points by Travlingypsy (7) 2 years ago

I agree hope is stupid. There is a neediness to it; nothing definite is expressed in the word. You can hope forever and never get anything. Faith on the hand leads one towards something attainable. Taking action, very different than hoping something will happen. The reason change has not already happened is because don't take action and maybe sit around hoping something will change. What is the use of that?

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Let's use planning and hard work. Forget faith and hope.

[-] -1 points by A12B3C (0) 2 years ago

Really? That screed above makes me want to vomit. You people are such frauds and hypocrites.

[-] -1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

You forgot uninformed and stupid.

[-] 5 points by Heisenberger (4) 2 years ago

In Spain we also use consensus to make decisions...even in general assemblies with thousands of people. They have been several attemps to introduce voting systems (based on 80% majority) but I think that it's not a good idea. Consensus is the basis of assamblearism. it force you to listen actively to others and allow you to reach a higher level of collective thinking.

Congratulations! You are building something really great. The world is watching you!

[-] 1 points by Travlingypsy (7) 2 years ago

I agree. It takes more time but in the end works very well. I was in a group for a year, everyday, we reached every decision in this way. It was messy and did take a long time but in the end everyone was pleased with the outcome and the final decision. When everyone is heard there is no infighting in the group. People are willing to surrender an idea when it is clear the majority wants something else. It was the most intimate experience of my life. We had a level of respect and acceptance I've never experienced since or before. I think most people don't want to put the effort;time really, into it that it requires. So, eventually the loud, the obnoxious, the pushy take over. They are heard and other people get lost and there is no longer a consensus. It is the loud, the pushy, the obnoxious that then rule. Kinda like what we have now. Only works for the few.

[-] 1 points by DLowan (6) 2 years ago

Was the world watching when #OWS sent the homeless packing because they were too selfish to share a little of their DONATED food?

[-] 1 points by thebeastchasingitstail (1912) 2 years ago

LIE

[-] 1 points by Travlingypsy (7) 2 years ago

Its very destructive to have an opinion of something you don't know anything about. It's always better to get as much of the truth, first hand if you can, before voicing your opinion....that is based on emotion and not fact.

[-] 1 points by Fredone (234) 2 years ago

They did not. That is propaganda, read the minutes of the 26 october GA, where the kitchen staf explain crystal clear that that is not the case at all, the truth is they were deliberately serving identical meals to everyone to promote solidarity. This rumor was started with an nypost article on oct 27.

[-] 5 points by RichardS (6) 2 years ago

When I was there at the assembly on August 2, I pointed out that I did not completely agree with that process - not only with regard to [depending too much on] consensus, but also some other little process quirks that I recognized from groups in the "anti-globalization movement," including the Direct Action Network. (Thus, this process did not look new to me at all - quite the contrary.) During the time of the next several GAs (though not so much at the GAs themselves), a few other people also voiced serious doubts about the consensus process and said they wanted to change things, but we all agreed that there was too much to do to prepare for Sep. 17 and that it would be distracting to focus on the process, so we chose not to worry about it.

There have been lots of people who have said that the consensus process is not necessarily the most ideal, even for anarchists. One such person is Murray Bookchin, whose writings on this matter make a lot of sense. Some of his comments on his experience with consensus and the Clamshell Alliance can be found at Indymedia Portugal:

http://pt.indymedia.org/conteudo/newswire/4835?page=200

But I guess with OWS, the process remained in place...

I kind of dropped out of the GAs for a while (well, still am kind of dropped out), so I can't say whether everyone is happy with the process now. (I chose not to be involved with this stuff for a while. I go to the demos and do other stuff instead. Of course, quibbles aside, I fully support this movement.) However, I just wanted to add my perspective here regarding the history of this process as it was decided upon and used starting on August 2, since I was, indeed, there at the time (at least in the first full assembly, though I guess not in that prior future process group meeting - I know, it is confusing, and it was, and half the time it was difficult to hear what was going on, as we hadn't yet established a method to address that problem :) ).

I also hope people don't start to think that consensus is the only process that can be used in direct democracy or that it is the process always naturally chosen by anarchists. As Bookchin has pointed out, historically, consensus has for the most part not been the process used by anarchists (rather, they have generally used a form of voting).

I mostly agree with the statement that "In the end, it matters less how a final decision is reached—by a call for blocks or a majority show hands—provided everyone was able to play a part in helping to shape and reshape it." However, I hope that in the future people do remain flexible and do not assume that one method or formula is the only way to do it.

[-] 1 points by eccupi (4) 2 years ago

well said

[-] 1 points by dls101 (27) 2 years ago

Yes, How important that we stay open and self-critical about decisions that we have made so we can change them. I think consensus is possible right now because there is so much general agreement about issues being discussed. (?) I have been involved in Dialogue Process where each person in the circle gets to speak before decisions are attempted. There is only deep listening required in this first round of communication.

[-] -1 points by A12B3C (0) 2 years ago

Eyewitness accounts of your pathetic 'GA' meetings have revealed the shouting, fistfights and screamed obscenities that occur.

Of course, that's what usually happens when toddlers can't stop fighting over a favorite toy.

Grow up and go home. Take a shower and get a job. You're all pathetic creeps.

[-] 2 points by foundingbaby (15) 2 years ago

You've been to them all? Which one's were you at? Get it on video. Grow up indeed.

[-] 1 points by Travlingypsy (7) 2 years ago

You sound like someone who knows little first hand of what goes on. Its too bad you can't see the need for this, no matter how messy it appears.

[-] -1 points by Pulseguy (1) 2 years ago

A12B3C....Is that true? Are there fistfights and shouting at the GA meetings? That is funny. So much for consensus and nonviolence.

[-] 1 points by Fredone (234) 2 years ago

No it's not true, lol. At least he admits that would be undesirable if it were true, which is a start from a lowbrow like that.

[-] 4 points by mels (15) 2 years ago

"Consensus is not a unanimous voting system; a “block” is not a No vote, but a veto."

-- in this way You'll be able to solve only the simplest and unimportant problems, and your movement will stuck when the first serious problem occurs

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 2 years ago

I agree

[-] 0 points by DLowan (6) 2 years ago

Well, considering that their most 'serious' problem so far has been making sure their fellow freakazoids do the Twinkle Hands correctly, I don't think you have much to worry about LOL.

Remember, these are mostly spoiled and lazy children who are mad because they might have to someday work for a living and have decided 'camping' is more fun for now.

[-] 1 points by monkeyman (6) 2 years ago

DLowan you are such a dick, or you are being paid to troll, perhaps you are both.

[-] 0 points by bobby (58) from Quincy, CA 2 years ago

That's why the 8th USA Parliament uses "ranked choice consensus voting". Because when there is an improvement, then both items can be voted on, and the more improvements the better, over and over and over again.

Raise the hand is primitive plurality voting, and ranked choice consensus is a vast improvement.

Try it!

http://usparliament.org/votehere.php

[-] 0 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 2 years ago

Also, I"m worried posts like this will not appeal to moderate supporters. Remember the evil overlords? They will be happy to keep stealing our money and raping our earth while all the freakin hippies are making hand signals about drum circles. I support this movement (and I love hippies:)) but we have to capitalize on our momentum and try to move as many people as we can. Most people cannot imagine the GA's becoming the new system of gov for the country, and if not we need to use our numbers to pressure the powers that be to bend to our will.

[-] 2 points by sylrse (38) 2 years ago

There is a debate in physics circles on whether evolution is a long, slow process, a sudden event, or a combination of the two. I believe most physicists would agree, regardless of how it happens, it is born out of a survival need. Open dialog definately is a need in our current world situation, and is a first step- not the final result. Keep the dialog flowing and the solutions will come into being.

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 2 years ago

Agreed! Thank you. I really do love ALL the dialog. While reading today I felt compelled to start this forum because of all the more extreme ideas I've been seeing lately. I just want moderates to know we are still here and ready to move against the real enemy, not the drum circles.

[-] 3 points by enzymerich (3) 2 years ago

Deliberative Democracy I’m not sure where to post this suggestion about a proven alternative way for the public (not politicians) to decide complex social issues like war, taxes, energy, banking, money, education, etc. Apparently it's a system that’s very similar to the original Greek democratic processes. So I’ll start by posting it here. Any other suggestions on where to post this? This is called deliberative democracy. It’s as an alternative to representative democracy which is too easily corrupted. Here are some good links:

summary of deliberative democracy http://www.ida.org.au/deliberative.php

James Fishkin Aired on KSFR 101.1 FM on October 30, 2010 The framers of the Constitution of the US tried to create institutions of deliberation, places where reasoned and thoughtful debate could occur and where rationality might triumph. With the arrival of the mass media and the internet, however, something unexpected has occurred: instead of reasoned exchanges, our population has segregated itself into like minded and self-confirming cliques of opinion that have bred extremism and irrationality rather than rationality. Professor Fishkin has developed a remarkable response to this phenomenon, re-creating institutions of Deliberative Democracy and these he has pioneered all over the world from China to Ireland, from Rome to Denmark and widely within the United States. The principles and practice of this experiment to remake democracy are available in this program and at cdd.stanford.edu this radio interview – mentions Texas using this system and choosing wind power over coal http://www.craig-barnes.com/media/fishkin.mp3

short video on PBS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GlU-tnVXNo&feature=player_embedded

facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/When-the-people-speak/210142416832

pbs documentary on use of deliberative democracry in CA http://cdd.stanford.edu/mm/2011/ca-state-of-mind/

Rich

[-] 1 points by mwagshol (120) from Seattle, WA 2 years ago

Thank you for this interesting and important contribution to the Occupy movement. I really enjoyed the idea of deliberative democracy through a combination of polling, education, and in-person discussion. You should share this idea and others you have on this more 'structured' and searchable forum so it does not get lost and can induce more thought-provoking debate: http://www.themultitude.org/forum/index.php

[-] 3 points by jupiterzero (8) 2 years ago

Great article. I wish that I had adequate words to describe this freight train of a movement. I am inspired and awe struck. It brings tears to my eyes to think that we are witnessing the birth of a new era in social evolution. Power to the occupiers! Long live the revolution!

[-] 3 points by freeows (84) 2 years ago

Good article! As far as I am concerned that this 42 days old OWS "CONSENSUS" system is working much more effectively and collaboratively than our United States Congress!! Those politicians up there are supposed to work hard for all of us to protect us but instead, they've been fighting each other selfishly either for their own interests and their own partisan power, these unconscionable folks are helping the superpowerful 1% to screw the 99% fellow citizens who elected them! Is this Consensus system perfect? No. But it is definitely not worse than our own government system which sucks! I say, I wish this OWS consnesus system the best!!

[-] 2 points by OCCUPYandDHSandTSA (5) 2 years ago

They haven't worked for us for a long time. Except for 5 or 6, they have been bought and paid for by the privately owned Federal Reserve, who pays them to create debt. The Federal Reserve private members get paid the interest on the debt, so it's win win for them and lose lose for ?Americans, who have been deserted.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

washington failed ( in this regard ) because of the paid for r blocks - not because of "standard" meeting rules in congress.
I have been to groups where blocks have completely halted progress until a new meeting on a different day where the blockers did not show up.

[-] 3 points by EDpeak (5) from Silver Spring, MD 2 years ago

Consensus is a key, tool, very useful and used properly. Thank you for helping spread the word and for sharing more about it!

Here is another: NVC, Nonviolent Communications, see http://www.cnvc.org/ and http://www.celebrateempathy.com/NVC_Intro.pdf

I am far from expert, and suspect many OWS and "OccupyElsewhere" organizer-participants know as much or more. My purpose here is merely to encourage future post(s) by you on this website, about NVC, too....

All the more important to do so, while the eyes of the world and of fellow Americans in particular are still focused (the corporate media are already working to undermine, see Thursday's USA Today) so more people can learn about the tool or framework that is NVC, too.

Consensus and NVC, and there are more. Though I don't agree with him 100% of the time, this quote comes to mind:

“This country has far more problems than it deserves and far more solutions than it applies.”-Nader

Let's spread the word about more positive culture-changing ideas (as well as changing politics-economics that is our current Corporate Feudalist state of affairs) that are out there!

Peace

[-] 2 points by noalternative (43) 2 years ago

I think the search for consensus over majority rule is the biggest weakness of this movement. It reminds me of the way obama had votes and the majority for public option but chose mandated private health insurance in order to get 1 or 2 right wing votes.

[-] 2 points by citizenNJ (5) 2 years ago

i have little long term hope for this movement. mainly in my view that the movement is far to fragmented with some highly complex matters. mr. graeber makes for great writing but is a process by consensus lead by anarchists is what Americans really need. in my opinion, let's build a platform, a foundation that a movement can grow on.

[-] 2 points by handro (16) 2 years ago

This is all wonderful until actual resources, money, interests, and serious issues are at stake. Along as the assembly is only discussing symbolic issues of a temporary movement with no one's personal livelihood at stake it is theatre.

Good luck with a consensus-basd assembly decisions on taxes, government expenditures, access to medical care, etc....

[-] 2 points by donaldrtaylor (2) 2 years ago

The movement has outgrown this anarchist experiment. It was good for awhile but its over. OWS is a national movement and it needs strong leadership

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I agree. The most legit thing I have found so far is

https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/

[-] 2 points by KiriofGreenfield (21) 2 years ago

What an amazing story. Consensus IS the genius of this movement. It needs to catch hold and root, and the spreading tendrils reach out to connect with others, continually. Demos are all well and fine, but the world we are creating will be envisioned and articulated through this direct democracy process. That's the long-lasting work.

[-] 2 points by WolfLarsen (3) 2 years ago

Capitalism is the problem. Capitalism is the means by which 1% of the population dominates the other 99%. Both the Republicans & Democrats represent the interests of the privileged 1%. The working class needs a third political party: its own! I worked blue-collar jobs for 12 years. What I like about the Occupy Wall Street movement is that it brings attention to how the privileged 1% oppress workers of all colors, religions, sexual preferences, etc. Working people unite!

[-] 2 points by RichZubaty (37) from Wailuku, HI 2 years ago

It will be naive not to realize the inherent hazards of consensus decision making. (After Switzerland) Poland was the first European government to establish a legislature. It was run by consensus and any single legislator could block action by the entire assembly. It was a total failure. The governments of Prussia and Russia and Germany simply had to bribe one Polish legislator with a million bucks, and they could shut down any action by the Polish government. The idea of “one person one veto” is doomed to fail in the long run. We should strive to be decentralized. Consensus works best in the individual working groups. Anyone who expects to affect decision-making should participate in the working groups. But allowing some stranger to wander into a GA and veto an action that has been approved mostly by consensus in a working group is a recipe for failure.

[-] 2 points by Fredone (234) 2 years ago

No, because if the individual is not acting in good faith that will become apparent during discussion, probably. Besides, it is only 9/10 consensus. Also, there are ways around that, ultimately the system can be resistant to corruption, we just need to be inventive enough.

I'll believe this current method is a recipe for failure when it fails, in which case we will change it. It hasn't yet.

[-] 1 points by RobertNDavis (133) 2 years ago

Very true.

[-] 2 points by united (3) 2 years ago

I was at Wash Sqr and Times Sqr and will return as I fully support the sentiment of what has been developing. However, if the overall sentiment is about the 99% having more of a say in the decisions that affect our lives, then having "legal" status is paramount. That means altering our constitutional system in a way that delivers to the citizens an "official" capacity to weigh in on major issues. Consider the following: Four reasons to let the citizen’s vote in National Referendums on major issues.

  1. It’s our lives and we have the right to participate in the decision making process when policies and laws are being created that we all must live with. Elected officials are at best unfairly influenced by re-election, party loyalty, and concentrated interests, into making decisions on our behalf that with greater frequency are not in our best interest.

  2. Those people elected to serve us have f ailed in their responsibility to do so and our democracy demands that we get involved. The most effective and “non-institutional” way to do this is to afford the citizens a fraction of the decision authority to accept or reject government’s major policy proposals on issues of vital national importance.

  3. The potential for National Referendums on major issues would minimize the political game playing that the two major parties tend to engage in at our expense for political gain. National Referendums would act as a political antiseptic for the partisan bacteria that is taking over our democracy.

  4. We are more than capable of weighing in on major decisions that affect our lives. This is proven by the fact that millions of Americans make difficult decisions on a regular basis in managing businesses, their family’s future, their finances, (consistently much better in this regard than the government ever has) career choices, healthcare issues, and a host of other challenges that are no more difficult to think through than just about anything our representatives are confronted with.

This is not a proposal to replace our present representative system. It is offered in addition to and on the invitation of Congress to invite the citizens to share in a portion of the responsibility in major decisions addressing issues of vital national importance.

[-] 2 points by AZvotenow (44) 2 years ago

Keep the movement alive. "The 1%" are making laws to kill your right to vote. GET EVERYONE REGISTERED and VOTE for the People who are not CORPORATE controlled. IF YOU REGISTER AND VOTE real hope will return to AMERICA. We killed the Robber Barons before we can do it NOW>

[-] 1 points by sylrse (38) 2 years ago

Just a heads-up about voting rights: today on the msnbc program, 'UP with Chris Myers', a discussion came up about laws put into effect in California, Nevada, Colorado, Florida, and I beieve Texas, where if you are living with a relative because your home was forclosed on, you are considered living 'temporarily' at that address and cannot register to vote. According to their statisics, that decision affects 18 millions voters. I'm writing this by memory, so please verify I have all the correct facts.

[-] 1 points by DLowan (6) 2 years ago

Facts? When have you losers EVER let facts get in the way of spewing your marxist vomit?

[-] 1 points by sylrse (38) 2 years ago

Just now- see above.

[-] 1 points by monkeyman (6) 2 years ago

Great Granpa Karl was a good man. DLowan however is not.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

The 1st step is to nominate a 3rd party.

OWS is throwing in a pat hand. They have no clue.

[-] 2 points by chrysalis12481 (6) from Shokan, NY 2 years ago

We can learn from those indigenous communites for whom this process is traditional as well.

[-] 2 points by dls101 (27) 2 years ago

This wonderful article and comments inspired me to research DIALOGUE a bit. David Bohm, the quantam phyicist (sp, sorry) wrote about the process. It is about a process that involves speaking with care and listening with care. Check it out to add to "the mix."

[-] 2 points by Tempest4V (11) 2 years ago

YES!!! This is what politics must be about - the consensus of the people and the full transparancy in the decision-making process. I say, NO, no to this idea of a single leader representing the will of the people. I say no to this fascination of that one person can manage the masses. This consensus making process have revolutionized my personal belief in the enactment of the single will of the people, all the while making it a continuously on-going process all at the same time, the decision-making that is.

[-] 2 points by OCCUPYandDHSandTSA (5) 2 years ago

Great job. This will not end until We The People have taken our country back from the privately owned Federal Reserve.

Occupy TSA and DHS Two agencies in contempt of We The People and OUR CONSTITUTION and Bill of Rights.

[-] 2 points by Thisisthetime (200) from Kahlotus, WA 2 years ago

Keep up the Good Work. Fair-ness.

[-] 2 points by lov3stArs (2) 2 years ago

Bravo - Bravissima for your brilliant decisions, Unity Consciousness in knowing that we Are our brother and sister's 'keeper,' helper, voice and compassionate advocate. We have broken the 'puppet strings' thanks to ALL.

[-] 2 points by ediblescape (235) 2 years ago

Wikipedia did it for a new information system, OWS is doing it again for a new world.

[-] 1 points by Thisisthetime (200) from Kahlotus, WA 2 years ago

I like your analogy.

[-] 0 points by DLowan (6) 2 years ago

Vomit.

[-] 2 points by Tovah1984 (5) 2 years ago

What do you do if someone unreasonably refuses to remove their block? And what would you consider unreasonable?

[-] 1 points by DLowan (6) 2 years ago

They'll be sent to Siberia post-haste, no doubt.

[-] 1 points by QuietDay (59) 2 years ago

Who decides if they're doing it to irritate you or if they're making a valid point? Another concensus vote? And round and round it goes ...

[-] 1 points by Fredone (234) 2 years ago

Don't think of this as a puzzle, think of it as a process. The enemy is trying to gum up the works or tilt things in their own favor by whatever means possible, and one means is to send in people who will act in bad faith at the GAs.

However, there are thousands of minds at the GAs, which will quickly realize that person is acting in good faith. Just because you, with only one brain cannot figure out a solution doesn't mean they cannot. They will figure out something, the handful of saboteurs the 1% can send, and keep under cover, cannot compete with us when there is a level playing field, as there is at the GA.

[-] 1 points by Peacemaker (3) 2 years ago

I would redouble my efforts to understand what their interests were and if there were other ways to meet them that would also allow for removal of the block.

[-] 0 points by FreeMarkets (272) 2 years ago

what if they are just doing it to irritate you?

[-] 1 points by Fredone (234) 2 years ago

That would become apparent to the body of people present. They might influence this decision, but if people kept doing that we would change the rules so the honest opinions put forth in good faith only came forth. And yes that's tricky because who decides what good faith opinions are? That will require experimenting.

[-] 0 points by FreeMarkets (272) 2 years ago

So you would repress dissenting opinion so that only "good faith" ideas could be put forth. Where have we heard this before?

[-] 1 points by nsd72 (31) 2 years ago

Impossible? Not necessarily if you recognized the underlying theme that runs through the 99%. Maybe you'd consider this:

I'm in London, been speaking to the occupy people here. I've worked for a decade in the field of social justice/wellbeing. Seems to me that although there are many voices here, there's a common thread that links all protesters: whether it's justice, greed, the economy, jobs, pay, the future... what this is really about is how we treat each other (& the world we share).

Remember the Peace Sign, & how by capturing the zeitgeist it attracted millions of followers in the 70s? Why don't we adopt a new symbol that captures today's zeitgeist that acts like a sort of umbrella for all our views?

This would give the current amorphous, multi-celled mass enough identity to bring some cohesion and more impact. But like the symbiotic jellyfish, you can hack it into pieces and it will survive... so they can't take it down and there's an underlying purpose and methodology that they can't dispute.

What's that identity? It's summed up in the phrase "I care about mankind and the world our children will inherit." And the underlying methodology is wellbeing-focused - because we all deserve wellbeing and improving wellbeing has tremendous social, economic and political consequences.

Not trying to sell anyone anything - just seems to me the 99% lack a uniting symbol so please come back to me with your comments. The symbol I propose is called the tocamu (see tocamu.com) and you can read/copy & paste a one page sheet to your friends if you want to (click to enlarge to readable size): http://www.tocamu.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Unite-Letter.png

Wouldn't it make sense if this army marched under one flag?

[-] 1 points by DonQuixot (231) 2 years ago

El comunismo soviético fracasó y el capitalismo también. De Argentina viene la solución. En el término medio está la virtud. http://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/sociedad/issue_31861.html

[-] 1 points by dannyh (1) 2 years ago

Could I have permission to use this photo in a high school news magazine article about OWS?

I need permission from the site or from the photographer to use it,

[-] 1 points by equus (12) 2 years ago

OWS should organise a referendum on an issue. Take back the decision right/power from the politicians & the media whose major job is NOT to allow the people to participate in any decision making process. We can see currently how Europe is threatening the Greek government on the PM's proposed referendum. We need to think about how to hijack a system to vote.

[-] 1 points by EllenwithQuestions (2) 2 years ago

I have not been able to read all the comments, so this may have been addressed elsewhere, if so I would appreciate a link. I am not being snarky, truly curious. If all decisions are to be made by direct democracy and the (long, messy) process of consensus, isn't anyone unable to be present at the meeting automatically disenfranchised? I am a mom with two very small children, and a full-time job. Trying to bring the little bitties to an hours-long meeting would be distracting at best and cruel at worst. The more complex and diverse a society is, the more decisions need to be made - is there not a functional limit to how many people can partcipate, and how long the meetings must go on? Someone has to grow food, rear children, do emergency surgery, make things - so if there is no delegation of decision making to a proxy, then those who must be elsewhere have no voice. I am also thinking of people with disabilities who are physically limited. Many people can vote under the current system, either in person or by absentee ballot, who could not participate in an extended, live, real-time process. Is there a vision for addressing this?

[-] 1 points by tzujan (1) 2 years ago

Consensus is a great way to go for a great movement. Nice explanation. One more voice of support, hand raised high.

[-] 1 points by Tyroneaustin (7) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

“”YOU NEED A GAME PLAIN”” .....THE GAME PLAIN........ Inventions Designs & Concepts.LLC Please Organize your FORCES. Chain of command need to help implement these programs in your OCCUPIED CITIES. Then you too can control the WELTH in you communities. Any Question Just contact me. I’m willing to add more directions to help you make this once in a life time SHOT come true. Helpful Directions Below. How to FIX the US Economy 101 http://www.fatttrixx.com/revenue.html " 5 Tank System.AVI” Free Energy” "Hydrogen Car Fenders 2012" See these 2 program that ID&C designed OCCUPY SOCIETY!! WIN WIN !!
!! We as Americans need to Reverse the way Big Companies get their revenue , (Answer)DIG INTO THEIR REVENUE 1) Drinking Water Sales revenues 100% to the People 2) Snack FOODS revenue 20% to the People 3) Car Fuel 70% 4) Power Companies revenues 80% 5) Video gaming Playing revenue 70% We at ID&C have Programs to enter into all of her above major industries Join a SOLUTION
"OCCUPY SOCIETY"! WIN WIN! "How to FIX the US Economy 101" http://www.fatttrixx.com/revenue.html 1) Found Raising/Donations collection ($$$$) 2) Take that money to a Young group of manager who just finish one of those trade schools that the President Paid for . 3) Hand over the “Hydrogen Car Fender” design to them and direct them to a Plastic manufacture. 4) The plastic manufacture will accept the designs for the “Hydrogen Car Fender” and make the east mold to start Pressing them out. 5) Tool Shops will be given the Designs for the style of Hydrogen Stainless Steel configuration for the plastic manufactures to place in side the mold to incase inside the Fender. 6) Make and models will very so the Team of managers will produce and organize the install time for make and models.
The next stop. You should be showing the people that relief they been asking for .http://www.fatttrixx.com/revenue.html. “Anonymous” “ The Cure 4 America” TIMING IS EVERYTHING> NO SECOND CHANCES get this program and get at it ASAP...We as the 90% can control $7Billion ever 30Days and Fix what is wrong Step by Step.

1)Start asking the wealthy for money . Raise the money to produce the Hydrogen CAR FENDERS . 2) Allow US Citizens to pre register their car on line to help raise capital before you go into productions. 3) Use the Money raised on line to Pay manufactures and tool shop (Job Creator) for producing and delivery of the Hydrogen car fenders. 4) Set up shops around the USA in every State to get more people involved in saving portion of $6,000 a year. Shops will Installs these device when they are delivered.

5)When US Citizens Pre Order on line they can then ask for make and model of car , or they can just Commission A Hydrogen car fender before they know what type a car it will be installed on. 6) Portions of the founding in the Pre section of these program will be sent to develop the final 3D rendering of "Hydrogen hammer System" and '5 Tank System" With these two Program you can offer the people a TRUE SOLUTION with $6,000 a month in their pockets and YOUR GROUP gets to control $7Billion a month , back in to the US ECONOMY.

Sounds simple, that"s because it is

[-] 1 points by Finance (11) 2 years ago

America is sold out to international bankers( Federal Reserve)

[-] 1 points by Finance (11) 2 years ago

America is sold out to international bankers( Federal Reserve)

[-] 1 points by Finance (11) 2 years ago

America is sold out to international bankers( Federal Reserve)

[-] 1 points by JamieNYE (2) 2 years ago

Interesting commentary. As a point of clarification, it's unnecessary to prove through logic something that is demonstrable in practice. It is only necessary to prove that something is impossible, because the failure to find a single suitable case does not mean that one does not exist, and the number of possible cases makes proof by exhaustion infeasible.

[-] 1 points by JamieNYE (2) 2 years ago

Interesting commentary. As a point of clarification, it's unnecessary to prove through logic something that is demonstrable in practice. It is only necessary to prove that something is impossible, because the failure to find a single suitable case does not mean that one does not exist, and the number of possible cases makes proof by exhaustion infeasible.

[-] 1 points by moreoccupy (4) 2 years ago

Occupy IS Winning! BANK OF AMERICA AND REGIONS BANK DROPED $5 Debit Card Fees. Pull Your Money Fromthese banks. asap. Ditch Cable TV. Ditch phone contracts also (Prepaid is the way to go) if you want to change these price gouging corporations.

[-] 1 points by Crispin (4) from Grayslake, IL 2 years ago

America by consensus, our liberty or death! That is exactly what American freedom stands for. " We the people." Everyone seems to know this except for t he bureaucrats in Washington who's ears are deafened by their own entitlement. Their entitlement manifest itself in self raises, personal social security, health care and pensions. And if that is not enough Washington is suppose to reflect the people. I see only lawyers! Why are there no carpenters or artists or actors or moms or merchants or clergy in the Senate or House. That woud be a concensus of the people. Instead we are being told by a very small elite who are selling us out to corporations for their own engrandizement, here is what we have decuded for you. Except now they can't even deide. More than ever we need a concensus by the people and for the poeple. We need to be represented by many people's voices and not just lawyers. We need to affirm that this is our land, our government, our society. Time and again, we the 99% have given them an opportunity and we trusted them to fulfill their promise and every time they are elected they disregard us and make a career out of what is to be a four year job, not fourty. Nothing corrupts absolutely like absolute power. In reality the people have the power. United we stand, so do not divide. Unite! Stay united. Vote with your feet and your pocket book, Use the internet and social media. In one day we could all refuse to buy anything and totally stop the US economy. One email action that we unite on could make the earth stand still. Look at the response in NY when just a few weekends ago all took their money out of Bank of America. This movement is not just an abstract hope because there is action. We have momentum. We have already reach a concensus world wide and that is to act together for the benefit of all mankind not just those few at the top. Remenber it is the base of the pyramid that supports the top. Take away the base and the pyramid crumbles.Continue today and everyday take away just one brick from the wall. Wall street.
"Freedom, a government for the people by the people", not just lawyers. Next time you vote, don't vote for a lawyer for public office, vote for a citizen and rid ourselves of the promise breakers and of the corporate deal makers. We have become a CORPacracy. All this ends everyday we stand united. We are the people of America, get up and stand up for your rights. Be good to yourself, be part to a concensus.

[-] 1 points by passerby (1) from город Домодедово, МО 2 years ago

Great, at last. It took about 100 years to see the truth. We had those in summer of 1917, called 'sovet of worker's and farmworker's deputee'. Welcome to the club.

[-] 1 points by citizenNJ (5) 2 years ago

i have little long term hope for this movement. mainly in my view that the movement is far to fragmented with some highly complex matters. mr. graeber makes for great writing but is a process by consensus lead by anarchists is what Americans really need. in my opinion, let's build a platform, a foundation that a movement can grow on.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

This experiment in Direct Democracy by anarchists has been effective in attracting alot of attention. This movement has managed take advantage of every social/political/economic frustration to gain attention.

However, Direct Democracy in a park will not translate to the government of a country that is the greatest country on earth and leader of the free world.

Our Founding Fathers, in their wisdom, gave us a Representative Republic. No way is a group of anarchists going to improve on what our Founding Fathers gave to us.

I suppose the 98.99% should give proper credit to the anarchists for launching this experiment. It has helped us to discuss and speak out about many legitimate frustrations and problems in our country.

However, no OWS GA will ever take up the legitimate demands of the majority (ie: campaign finance reform, financial reform, corporate personhood) with the purpose of affecting change through government. Because this is not their goal. Their goal is to use the majorities legitimate frustration to gain support for one thing: Direct Democracy and some brand of anarchy.

I believe that 99.99% of people will reject Direct Democracy beyond the park. It is up to the 98.99% to move our legitimate issues with government out of the park. To work with government and through government to enact the positive changes that we want for our country.

[-] 1 points by LeeMcD22 (5) 2 years ago

See this [short]: Neverminditol-The Great Recession Depression Drug and then get up and JOIN the Occupy movement!

http://www.youtube.com/user/BaitAndSwitchTV#p/u/3/PxRekUJ3RBA

Also see: The Real Housewives of Tent City (A Hot New REALITY Show-Global Depression Edition): http://www.youtube.com/user/BaitAndSwitchTV#p/u/14/NH_WqjgoJLY

And: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Bank?: An Uncensored Investigation of the US Federal Reserve Banking Cartel--one of the most controversial institutions of our time...(Self-Serving its Country Since 1913)...

http://www.youtube.com/user/BaitAndSwitchTV?feature=mhee#p/u/12/_M_Rh_fgKEQ

[-] 1 points by rufust (22) 2 years ago

U.S. State Dept UNESCO Press Conference

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEGuvuSe0q4

[-] 1 points by scotths (8) from Johnson City, TN 2 years ago

You all have done something that has needed to be done for a very long time and I fervently hope that the movement will spread across the world and result in the changes that have to be made on this planet.

[-] 1 points by rufust (22) 2 years ago

This gets really priceless at about the 20 minute mark

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/11/1/us_pulls_all_funding_for_unesco

[-] 1 points by letsfart4peace (29) 2 years ago

This world has become rotten with false political leaders, used for the purpose of entertainment. We see this with the candidates of the republican party, as the current state of this nation is to destroy all the credibility of the political system. As people's faith with the government and its corporations diminish, I see a similar trend to what was and is happening in Puerto Rico. Which means that this country will be undergoing a governmental collapse, I believe that it is too late to avoid the results of the consequences created by the individuals of the 1%, but I believe that this movement can bring new and innovative solutions to the table, which must be considered when the inevitable occurs. KEEP UP fighting! You guys give the youth hope for a brighter future.

[-] 1 points by zorbaka2 (61) 2 years ago

there is an organization now available in several states and will be in all states in January. It is a type of online convention. It is not republican or democrat or tea party. From what I've heard it will allow anyone to submit anyone for a public office. Operates completely on the internet.

[-] 1 points by zorbaka2 (61) 2 years ago

There are a lot of real worthy opinions here. The name calling only displays a comment that has no real opinion other than "anyone who doesn't agree with me is a (fill in your favorite word)". It is obvious to most Americans that something is seriously wrong. Big question to answer is what to do about it.

[-] 1 points by petermjones1 (1) 2 years ago

I wrote a song in 2008 that someone put on Youtube. If you go to "Pete Jones at Javawava" you can hear that song. It may be the anthem for this movement.

[-] 1 points by zorbaka2 (61) 2 years ago

that was good. There could be lots of theme songs. I like yours and also the following. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_ndC07C2qw

[-] 1 points by Nomativo (1) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Can you imagine the day when people across the the us get the opportunity to "spirit finger" their approval for bringing our military home and approve an initiative to feed all people and provide shelter and medical care for those in need? Well, do you? because I can. More reasons to #Occupy - Nomativo

[-] 1 points by Hawaii (1) from Kalaheo, HI 2 years ago

I would like to see consensus Democracy explained in a way where groups who do not have access to cities can also participate in their small communities.

[-] 1 points by sacramentoccupier (2) 2 years ago

I just hope that the energy of OWS participants as well as all those who are doing the same thing in various cities will channel the energy into a strong voting power. If we truly want a change in this country, we need to elect legislators who are truly servant of the people and not a servant of big corporations or the rich. The occupiers should start considering who will represent (candidates in the US senate and US house of Representatives) them for the 2012 national election and begin rounding supports to these candidates. The OWS movement will have very minimal impact on the change they are looking for if they will not channel these to a viable political influence

[-] 1 points by sacramentoccupier (2) 2 years ago

I just hope that the energy of OWS participants as well as all those who are doing the same thing in various cities will channel the energy into a strong voting power. If we truly want a change in this country, we need to elect legislators who are truly servant of the people and not a servant of big corporations or the rich. The occupiers should start considering who will represent (candidates in the US senate and US house of Representatives) them for the 2012 national election and begin rounding supports to these candidates. The OWS movement will have very minimal impact on the change they are looking for if they will not channel these to a viable political influence

[-] 1 points by cosmospacey (2) 2 years ago

Seattle artist Duff Hendrickson created a handbill design to protest Bank of America, Chase, Citibank, and Wells Fargo in support of the "Move your Money" campaign. Hendrickson donated it to Public Domain, so you are free to publish it, print it, put it on web sites.

Duff hopes you'll print it and pass it out in front of, or near the banks as a protest.

You can download the design at this website

http://www.archive.org/details/MoveYourMoney

[-] 1 points by blocade (81) 2 years ago

We cannot do this alone. New York and all other cities across the globe are all dependent on one another. Unfortunately we have all been distracted and divided. We appoint our own leaders, what we decide on together becomes law.

We must reach across the globe and connect as people, it is the only way to build a truly advanced and truly democratic system where we are all equal citizens of the earth.

it is inevitable and absolutely necessary in order to achieve world peace, it is a crime if we do not stop what we are doing and unify across the globe to build a better system of world government.

http://wesower.org A New World Constitution

[-] 1 points by me2 (534) 2 years ago

Take it to the next level! Electronic Direct Democracy! Virtual GAs!

[-] 1 points by davedwards1 (1) 2 years ago

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu_Mly16Abg

new anthem for occupy by davedwards1

[-] 1 points by xalu (1) 2 years ago

Check out DirectDemocracyNow.com. We are building a framework to design software that could be used for this exact purpose. To build a virtual congress, with minority representation and equalization. The model is still under construction and we need help to make it fair. Then the coding can begin. This could be a package software app like the wiki software has become...

[-] 1 points by lynneloew (1) 2 years ago

"The reason direct, consensus-based democracy has been so firmly embraced by and identified with anarchism is because it embodies what is perhaps anarchism’s most fundamental principle: that in the same way human beings treated like children will tend to act like children, the way to encourage human beings to act like mature and responsible adults is to treat them as if they already are." This reference point, proven to be true in so many disciplines including child development, is the key to reformatting everything in America and the Global community. Including focusing on the critical importance of human development during the years, 0-5, when the brain is capable of so many synaptic connections and is therefore shaped. It's called focusing on the source, not the symptoms.

[-] 1 points by farmrdave (3) 2 years ago

The most successful experiment in personal freedom in known history is the USA. It is written into our Constitution. The Constitution is a set of limits on government. Look at Europe's socialist countries like England, France and others. That is what the American Way of life is all about, a better free-er society.

[-] 1 points by farmrdave (3) 2 years ago

Operate by consensus? You mean if I have a pig farm and my neighbors sell their farms and that land becomes residential. Then the residents by consensus decide to end my pig farm it is OK? Personally I wish to live under the protections of individual rights as outlined in the US Constitution. I do not care what the consensus of my neighbors is I have my personal freedoms and will not surrender them to a consensus or to a corrupt government.

[-] 1 points by chamaco25 (2) 2 years ago

The Socio-Economic Free Market Debt-Money System must be completly erradicated if we want true holistic change! NO MORE MONEY SYSTEMS... These have always been the mayor problems of world societies.

I can say that people think that Greed and Corporate Corruption is the problem while in fact they are just Symptoms of a much bigger problem. You can remove everybody that is in power now with other people and sooner or later Greed and Corroption will surge again and again. As long as MONEY is used to control our natural resources and access to those resources. Those controlling the money will always have control of our lives... So here is the real problem for all of you and I hope this is widely understood.

The Problem is OUR SOCIO-ECONOMIC Free Market Debt-Money System along with the Psychology implanted to us through all the institutions they support to make us believe this is the only System that can provide for us as wage slaves, when in fact is stealing everything from us.

THE SOLUTION - A Resource Based Economic Model that deal with the Intelligent management of the World's Resources and all species of the planet by using Science/Technology and appying the scientific method to bettter manage/distribute our resources without using any type of exchange systems. We will all contribute to make a better world by collaborating and cooperating to build a resource based economy that serves us without being subservant of anybody else. We will have free access to the earth resources without paying anything to anybody...

This is the only way... But a whole lot of education is needed to understand this level of consciousness... hopefully, most of you can understand this message....

Regards,

[-] 1 points by chamaco25 (2) 2 years ago

The Socio-Economic Free Market Debt-Money System must be completly erradicated if we want true holistic change! NO MORE MONEY SYSTEMS... These have always been the mayor problems of world societies.

I can say that people think that Greed and Corporate Corruption is the problem while in fact they are just Symptoms of a much bigger problem. You can remove everybody that is in power now with other people and sooner or later Greed and Corroption will surge again and again. As long as MONEY is used to control our natural resources and access to those resources. Those controlling the money will always have control of our lives... So here is the real problem for all of you and I hope this is widely understood.

The Problem is OUR SOCIO-ECONOMIC Free Market Debt-Money System along with the Psychology implanted to us through all the institutions they support to make us believe this is the only System that can provide for us as wage slaves, when in fact is stealing everything from us.

THE SOLUTION - A Resource Based Economic Model that deal with the Intelligent management of the World's Resources and all species of the planet by using Science/Technology and appying the scientific method to bettter manage/distribute our resources without using any type of exchange systems. We will all contribute to make a better world by collaborating and cooperating to build a resource based economy that serves us without being subservant of anybody else. We will have free access to the earth resources without paying anything to anybody...

This is the only way... But a whole lot of education is needed to understand this level of consciousness... hopefully, most of you can understand this message....

Regards,

[-] 1 points by edantes (2) 2 years ago

Keep up the good fight, but remember a sure way to fail is to work within the exisiting system. I have seen it happen before and it will happen again.So be careful to stick to what you believe.

[-] 1 points by edantes (2) 2 years ago

Keep up the good fight, but remember a sure way to fail is to work within the exisiting system. I have seen it happen before and it will happen again.So be careful to stick to what you believe.

[-] 1 points by gregg (11) 2 years ago

Friends, Change is possible. Keep together and always be peaceful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovD6xm51qtQ&feature=youtu.be

[-] 1 points by ahbregman (18) 2 years ago

Hope is only a brief stepping stone on the long road to change. Hope springs from the conscious decisions of direct action and the recognition that things are possible when belief and heart meet motivation and intent. The hope that was created and sprouted through the Occupation movement must be nurtured and fed. We must begin calling out individuals who stand directly in the path of the change which hope inevitably requires. Call out Senators and Representatives who hold up processes directed towards enacting laws that will lead to real change, the movement must find a way to work within the system to change it from the inside out.

[-] 1 points by rparsad (6) 2 years ago

Abolish OR audit the Federal Reserve by petitioning the Obama administration. Here is the official petition at Whitehouse.gov: wh.gov/bC0. Be American, love democracy!

[-] 1 points by jockarum (4) 2 years ago

Democracy means: taking possession of corporations.

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 2 years ago

Now if this same feat could be accomplished on an international level with people of different national backgrounds requiring translators, that would truly be impressive.

[-] 1 points by blueheron (2) 2 years ago

As the whole world watches, let's start making some first downs the world understands. Let's insist laws already enacted are enforced. The Voelker rule certainly isn't perfect but it takes a bite out of Wall Street if enforced as written. Put the heat on Obama to light up Holder to make it happen. We can make other changes after we accomplish some touchdowns. Let's have an actual change result.

[-] 1 points by blueheron (2) 2 years ago

As the whole world watches, let's start making some first downs the world understands. Let's insist laws already enacted are enforced. The Voelker rule certainly isn't perfect but it takes a bite out of Wall Street if enforced as written. Put the heat on Obama to light up Holder to make it happen. We can make other changes after we accomplish some touchdowns. Let's have an actual change result.

[-] 1 points by flcdrpa (3) 2 years ago

It is time for the movement to evolve. It is time to have some structure, a semblance of leadership even it the hierarchy is horizontal, but there has to be a next step. All the occupation in the world won't cause change where change is needed unless the strategy encompasses things other than "occupation". We are not here to overthrow the government, we are here to hold them and the large corporations accountable. Marches, demonstrations and occupying parks won't get that done.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I agree. The most legit thing I have found so far is, https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/

[-] 1 points by turtlebeanz (40) 2 years ago

love you all, love this movement. still waiting to see how people who can not be present to speak for themselves at GAs may be included within the movement, however. i understand how teachers and (other) unions can step in in massive numbers and find affinity with the movement, and be supported by it. i have seen so much creative, practical brilliance -- for eg take our money out of the banks. and so much compassionate genius -- for eg disruptive serenading in foreclosure court. but i don't get what happens to those of us who can't show up at GAs to speak for ourselves. i am thinking of the large percentage of the 99% who are single mothers alone with children, living at or below the poverty level. we do not have babysitters much of the time. many of us are in lock down during the weekdays in specious "jobs programs," that are really just a punitive string attached to minimal welfare without which we can not live (there are no jobs -- just a lot of warehoused women separated daily from our small children). some of us are disabled. i fear in all the self congratulations about inclusiveness, we will lose track of those who are not among "us" at GAs. there must be some way to address us. saving the world while leaving behind the most needful for dead can't possibly work. it is my experience that in the main even communes can't be bothered to care about indigent single women and children. i do feel invisible in the ows proceedings. i want to show up. i have come four times with my three year old child. it has been very difficult and we had to leave the washington square GA we attended early on due to his health issues. there are so, so many of us who are not being represented within ows. a consensus process that requires physical presence means you are not representing me. i am not able to tell you where i need your help and to think creatively with you. women like me -- and our children -- are much of the 99%. i have been told at ows, as some well meaning man points at my child, "we are doing this for him." no, you are not. what you are doing is remarkable, miraculous, and blows my mind daily. but it is not for us. and it is not by us -- me and this little boy, and all the other mamas like me. you do not speak for those of my sisters de facto incarcerated in "jobs programs," separated from their children for no reason better than to satisfy people whose children are cared for by nannies. you do not speak for those of us who are dead tired and sick and still caring alone for our young -- and being treated punitively within the welfare system that purports to "help" us. you are not looking at the laws women like me need you to look at, at that shift in the past several years to programs that pretend to want to "help" single mothers work, but don't seem to worry that the jobs into which they back us don't pay enough to move poor families above the poverty line and by the way the government has to pony up so that our children can be in substandard daycare while women do these barely-paying jobs. you don't speak to those whose children are being hurt by this idiotic system that could have spent so much less money to buy hunks of land, built small housing, and sent new mothers there to regroup peacefully among ourselves..... i love you. but i don't get how consensus is going to work for those who can't make it to GA meetings to speak for ourselves. For the lowest among us, not as appealing to the american public as teachers and other union workers. i don't get how people like me can be part of the process. i am grateful for all the brilliant, concrete ways you have already stood for justice. but wonder who will speak for us, the women who are happy to make it through the day at all most of the time. we are exhausted. we will not be able to grapple our way through GAs with three year olds in tow. We are not the same as some of the parents who come to visit you at OWS. i have written elsewhere that i was once snubbed at OWS by a monied brooklynite hipster mom, toting her shabby chic toddler through liberty park. she was willing enough to connect with me and my son until she found out my neighborhood wasn't cool enough. i am not the woman you invite in for family night -- the one who can set up camp while her husband entertains the kid(s). i am the woman with her hair on fire who can't turn her back on the kid at all, because there is no one else to watch. if the impossible can be accomplished, do what even the communes in this country won't. find a way to include destitute single moms and our children. i express these feelings because i do believe in you. i really do. and i believe in me and the other women like me. we are bad ass amazing. and i hope and believe you will figure out a way to really include us. maybe... just maybe.....

[-] 2 points by Howtodoit (1232) 2 years ago

I believe, this is our first best shot:

Million People March to WDC to Reinstate Glass-Steagall Act. When? 6/16/12, 79th Anniv of G-S Act.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/its-time-for-a-million-people-march-to-capitol-hil/

[-] 1 points by EllenwithQuestions (2) 2 years ago

I hear you, turtlebeanz, and it's every parent who is not privileged with money, to hire a sitter, or vacation days from a survival job. it's also every person who is not privileged with health/typical physical ability and flexible responsibilities. And what about people in controlling/abusive families, who are left at home or are afraid of private reprisal for publicly expressed opinions? If the "new" model of society and governmetn will give a voice only to those who can attend long, complex meetings (that will only get longer and more complex over time), then it will just be a different 1% making the decisions. This is why I have serious questions about the movement and what it is trying to achieve.

[-] 1 points by flcdrpa (3) 2 years ago

I am here in Florida and love what the #OWS is trying to accomplish and support the movement 199%. I agree that hope has been restored to some degree and I also agree that it is imperative that the movement must figure out how to directly affect legislation. Unlike the 'Arab' situation, ours is much more different and complex. We can hold marches, raise signs, hold meetings amongst ourselves, and be as vocal as we can be, and all that will do is get us publicity. To effectuate change, we need to not only use our voices, but we must also use our brains and our collective strength to hold the 1% and their supporters, accountable.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I agree. The most legit thing I have found so far is https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/

[-] 1 points by Fredone (234) 2 years ago

We need a law that says when legislators provably act in opposition to what their constituents are telling them, they go to jail. Just losing you job is not enough with all this at stake.

[-] 1 points by Howtodoit (1232) 2 years ago

hi, I'm in Fl Too, let's try this next:

Million People March to WDC to Reinstate Glass-Steagall Act. When? 6/16/12, 79th Anniv of G-S Act.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/its-time-for-a-million-people-march-to-capitol-hil/

[-] 1 points by flcdrpa (3) 2 years ago

I am here in Florida and love what the #OWS is trying to accomplish and support the movement 199%. I agree that hope has been restored to some degree and I also agree that it is imperative that the movement must figure out how to directly affect legislation. Unlike the 'Arab' situation, ours is much more different and complex. We can hold marches, raise signs, hold meetings amongst ourselves, and be as vocal as we can be, and all that will do is get us publicity. To effectuate change, we need to not only use our voices, but we must also use our brains and our collective strength to hold the 1% and their supporters, accountable.

[-] 1 points by foundingbaby (15) 2 years ago

"Top 10 ways OWS can Excel: Counsel from Iran’s Green Movement"

"Kusha Sefat writes in a guest column for Informed Comment"

http://www.juancole.com/2011/10/sefat-top-10-ways-ows-can-succeed-counsel-from-irans-green-movement.html

...

1) Pick a color to represent your movement and wear it daily in public places (work, restaurant, etc.). Remember, this is a numbers game. You want maximum visibility, and to bring your movement into everyday life.

2) Have an all-inclusive strategy. Accept people with different views who are willing to join you in protest. Contrary to popular belief, you don’t have to know what you want as a movement yet. The goal at this stage is to point to your opponents and say that they have been lying to you; that the show they have constructed is false and that you are sick of it.

3) Demonstrate peacefully. Committing violence during demonstrations leads to ruptures within your movement, diminishes public sympathy, and gives the security forces a reason to violently suppress your protest.

4) Be rigorous. Security forces, dressed as civilians, may commit public acts of violence in order to have an excuse to squash protests. Find footage of those that police accuses of acting violently. Make sure they are legitimate protestors. Expose them if they are not.

5) Be creative. During demonstrations in Iran, security forces dressed a male protester in female attire in a bid to embarrass him. The next day, hundreds of male protesters came out in female attire.

6) Record protests with your mobile phones and send to television stations. Many broadcasters are owned by the very people who are in the 1%. But every now and then, there are producers and news workers who are willing to get in trouble for showing the truth. This happened in Iran on many occasions. News websites have an e-mail address and they generally ask you to send them footage. Do IT.

7) Send your footage of acts of violence committed by the police to foreign television broadcasters like Al Jazeera, RT, etc. When they show the footage, it puts pressure on American broadcasters to do the same. (Iranian protestors used BBC very effectively, even though it is a British outlet).

8) Write, “I am 99%” or “OWS” on all dollar bills that you circulate. Remember, you are fighting on the plane of the symbolic, and cash circulates widely and quickly.

9) Do not let politicians co-opt your movement. Many politicians, domestic or not, may hope to use your movement to their advantage. Allow them to join your movement, but DO NOT let them lead or act as spokesperson.

10) Write arguments and op-eds that aim at the logic of the system that has robbed you of opportunities and comfort. Do not aim at a particular person. People can be replaced; it is the system that is hurting you.

[-] 1 points by Fredone (234) 2 years ago

Whoa, be careful with number 6. The media will sift though the material and pick stuff that sends the message they want to send. You are giving them the tools to do that. That might have worked in iran where public opinion was less unstable, but it might backfire here.

[-] 1 points by fahmifou (1) 2 years ago

To every American girl blonde and blue eyes and a beautiful body .. I am a young Tunisian revolutionary used to guard and snipers .. Involved in all kinds of rallies and demonstration I used to tear the tears .. I am ready to marry an American girl revolutionary prepared marital life in freedom and democracy .. call me 0021623780292 email : fahmi912010@hotmail.fr

[-] 1 points by Alliandrina (40) 2 years ago

No matter how they decide to define consensus- this is not consensus. Consensus is really when every one is in agreement. They say its working and I really hope it is, but I still seen how they make sure someone feels safe in disagreeing with the crowd- even if they are in 'affinity groups.' Most people want to feel like they belong and will go along with others because of that. Some people will just go along because they are afraid of the consequences (getting kicked out of the group because they put up a block; made to feel shame, guilt, etc. all are all big motivators to go along with group think). Of course, I am not denying that there are people who will actually believe exactly what they say. But until I see actual safeguards against recrimination for speaking one's mind- then I don't know if I can fully support this movement.

[-] 1 points by Fredone (234) 2 years ago

That just means people won't block things frivolously, which is good. No one minds disagreement as long as you are being honest with us, especially because in most cases the people disagreeing have good points that others did not think of.

[-] 1 points by Alliandrina (40) 2 years ago

And how does one decide it is frivolous? Anyways, what if one person does have a disagreement- how do they get their concern addressed if the sign for disagreement just means that you don't like but won't stand in the way? Or is their another sign that means I disagree and I want to talk about why I disagree? And again how do you ensure that people are speaking their true minds and not agreeing out of fear?

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

OWS is all in agreement to not nominate candidates. They are all uninformed fools throwing in a pat hand. The entire congress is bribed.

[-] 1 points by efschumacher (74) from Gaithersburg, MD 2 years ago

Conundrum: If a consensus system with "blocking" converges on positive results, why is it that the Senate is so broken by the filibuster, which is also a blocking system?

[-] 1 points by Fredone (234) 2 years ago

Because they are all acting in bad faith with alterior motives, that's why. By being honest from the get go, we stay honest.

[-] 1 points by Ruck (5) 2 years ago

You are protesting in the wrong place. OCW should be protesting outside the WHITE HOUSE. After all, Obama was the man that AUTHORIZED the BAILOUT of the Banks, GM, Chrylser and many other large businesses. They could not have been bailed out without the President. He should also be held responsible.

[-] 1 points by Fredone (234) 2 years ago

There is an occupy DC too. And it does in fact start on wall street and with the wealthy. Congress is just a proxy war.

[-] 1 points by foundingbaby (15) 2 years ago

The bank bailouts were authorized by Bush. This whole banking mess started with JPMorgan's CDOs under Bush.

[-] 1 points by johnis48 (72) 2 years ago

Those who make money through corruption,will be the people who have the most to fear. Hope is a belief in better things to come and when the masses get behind this word the people of the world can and well bring about change and no power can stop the well of the people. Histroy has proven that the will of the people is more powerful than any gov't can control.This movement is a wake up call to all those who exploit the people to gain wealth and power through the abuse of the people.

[-] 1 points by NYLSBlog (1) 2 years ago

New York Law School's law blogger Meghan interviews the protesters on Occupy Wall Street. Check out the blog post and the video!

http://www.lasisblog.com/2011/10/25/a-law-student-on-occupy-wall-street-with-video/

If you enjoy the piece, "like" us on Facebook!

[-] 1 points by Truthbetold (5) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Attention All Members

This is an emergency Notice to all members of occupy James Damiano the very person who's been for over twelve years fighting the law firm that represents goldman sachs has been banned from this forum. Mr. Damiano is probably one of the most knowledgeable members and has contributed a wealth of information pertaining to the issues at hand in the Occupy forum

For more information e-mail thestealing@gmail.com or see http://wikileaksyola.yolasite.com/

[-] 1 points by Truthbetold (5) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Attention All Members

This is an emergency Notice to all members of occupy James Damiano the very person who's been for over twelve years fighting the law firm that represents goldman sachs has been banned from this forum. Mr. Damiano is probably one of the most knowledgeable members and has contributed a wealth of information pertaining to the issues at hand in the Occupy forum

For more information e-mail thestealing@gmail.com or see http://wikileaksyola.yolasite.com/

[-] 1 points by Fredone (234) 2 years ago

Spammer.

[-] 1 points by LM62 (4) 2 years ago

If We The People want a real say in our government, we need Direct Democracy at the national level. Check out National Initiative for Democracy and watch a 4 min. film on the concept. http://ni4d.us We need the right to vote on the issues not just the politicians that have their own agenda.

[-] 1 points by Pulseguy (1) 2 years ago

Nonsense. You all have a common interest. It is reasonable and normal to make decisions this way when everyone is on the same page. Four friends go to a movie and make a decision in the same way. What happens when there are competing interests and wildly conflicting viewpoints? It breaks down, and another system emerges.

You're talking like this is revolutionary when in fact it is sort of obvious.

[-] 1 points by Greenchile (3) 2 years ago

It has taken me a few weeks to understand what OWS is all about and I have also had to read some texts on political philosophy to help me. I may still not get it, unfortunately! Nonetheless, I believe it is the best thing to happen to this country since the Civil Rights movement. The inequality, indifference, and injustice that is all too apparent in this country is appalling and some sort of different democratic process is clearly needed. God speed OWS!

[-] 1 points by betsydoula (143) from Beverly Hills, FL 2 years ago

Thank you for this. We have our first GA meeting November 5th in small town America, Inverness, FL. If we can do it anybody can. This area is highly republican and 70% retirees. We had 38 this weekend at a rally. YEAH!!!

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

This is a good start but it's time to take it to the next level, then nationally and globally. You guys should join revolution 2.0 to allow the movement to mature with better ideas and organization.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( www.revolution2.osixs.org )

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

OWS refuses to nominate candidates for 2012. A huge blunder. Throwing in a pat hand. They all take bribes. That is the main issue.

[-] 1 points by TimHartnett (3) 2 years ago

For more info on consensus decision making and adaptations that make is effective check out the public service website: Consensus Decision Making dot Org

[-] 1 points by TimHartnett (3) 2 years ago

Hurray for using a consensus process! But let's not fall prey to the idea that individuals should have the power to block a group. We can use a process that includes everyone and incorporates the concerns of all. But we need to use a final decision rule that allows the group to move forward. Occupy Oakland used a 90% super-majority rule in conjunction withy a consensus process. This allowed them to reach a decision to call a general strike. The decision has widespread, but not unanimous support. Where would they be if they required unanimity? In a week-long meeting dominated by a few people who refused to change their mind, resulting in no decision and widespread frustration.

[-] 1 points by DonHawkins (37) 2 years ago

Dream the impossible http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/ it's not easy just the truth...........

[-] 1 points by LeeMcD22 (5) 2 years ago

The occupation is the message!

Food for thought: Wall Street is the primary dance partner, but its escort service is the Federal Reserve ...self-serving it's country since 1913 (and this is not coming from a tea-partier)...

Very important --watch the timeline segment!!:Must See videos...

Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Bank?: An Uncensored Investigation of the U.S. Federal Reserve --One of the most controversial institutions of our time ...(Part 1 of an 8-Part Episode)...

http://www.youtube.com/baitandswitchtv#p/u/0/_M_Rh_fgKEQ

Also Gotta See! The Real Housewives of Tent City--A Hot New Reality Show ...

http://www.youtube.com/user/BaitAndSwitchTV#p/u/2/NH_WqjgoJLY

[-] 1 points by BreadLandPeace (359) 2 years ago

I'm really sorry for the length of this email. The short version is: I love OWS, but believe it's going to take a highly disciplined leadership and refined process to achieve our ultimate goals.

David Graeber's an absolutely fantastic writer. And these comments here are a living example of the power of the international community and many inspired, brilliant thoughts. That internet forum is a kind of consensus in itself. I’d like to add here a concern that's based on my experience in the revolutionary socialist movement in the late '60's and '70's:

SDS (Students for a Democratic Society, a large, national, and very loosely organized student movement) was not able to organize effectively against the Vietnam war because it was too diffuse. It didn't have the professional, revolutionary leadership needed to take on the capitalist class.

I was in the Socialist Workers Party during the heyday of SDS, and we had to fight for our ideas to steer the radical movement toward mass action. It was because of huge antiwar mobilizations (along with the mounting casualties and heroic Vietnamese struggle) that the US was finally defeated in Vietnam. Bring The Troops Home Now!--which some considered a simplistic, reformist demand--achieved the impossible only because of revolutionary leadership. SDS had the troops, but not the necessary political understanding.

We had to organize a united front around that one demand, bring home the troops, because millions could agree with it. We would have lost the public if we had also demanded, for example: free legalized abortion and healthcare for all; affirmative action; overthrowing the capitalist state; support to revolutionary Cuba and the Palestinian struggle against Zionism; abolishing the family as an economic unit; gay rights; or even an end to apartheid. Man speakers at demonstrations raised those revolutionary demands and educated thousands of people. But as a rallying cry, Marxist ideologies would have limited the movement to the already converted, a tiny, tiny minority.

We also had to prevail over liberals, who, as today, wanted to co-opt the movement. For example, the Stalinists in the Communist Party USA wanted to channel activism straight into the Democratic Party. Consensus in that environment would obviously not have worked. The SWP was highly disciplined and unashamed in fighting for its political line over every single other point of view.

I'm sorry I've had to rely here on what might sound too general, only because I don’t have enough time right now to research specific names and dates that have informed my opinions; and for being verbose.

I can't express enough how grateful I am to the hard core, de facto leadership of OWS and the thousands of participants all over the world. OWS is beyond awesome. But on the basis of my own experience and some of the brilliant comments in these posts, it's clear that good intentions will never be enough.

Thanks very much.

from a long-time socialist in Lower Manhattan

[-] 1 points by DLowan (6) 2 years ago

David Graeber is a lefty hack who is more interested in the sound of his own voice than in seeking any solutions to his perceived problems LOL!

[-] 1 points by monkeyman (6) 2 years ago

DLowan is so consistent in seeking to stop the process that one can only assume that he is a paid troll. If you find him to be an annoying dick it is because he is one. My appologies to the rest of you for what may appear to be a childish response, but someone has to tell this paid troll to STFU.

[-] 1 points by BreadLandPeace (359) 2 years ago

I don't know much about him other than what I read in a long article in one of the mainstream online magazines, but he has very impressive academic credentials. Regardless of what you or anyone might think of him, the mass protests he's helped spark are astounding, revolutionary, and already making a difference--have you read about the banks that have decided to drop the monthly debit card fees they were planning? and there's more.

But thanks for reading my comment.

[-] 1 points by occupysurvey (6) 2 years ago

If you want to say what you think is most important in this movement, go here ... http://goo.gl/NuCTF ... to make your voice heard.

[-] 1 points by SandorE (12) 2 years ago

Time to Occupy the BOE Board of $Election and the CPD (Commission on Presidentail Debate - they are private and $ecret) BOE FL 7, 32 BROADWAY NEW YORK, NY 10004-1662

[-] 1 points by SandorE (12) 2 years ago

Time to Occupy the BOE Board of $Election

FL 7, 32 BROADWAY NEW YORK, NY 10004-1662 (212) 487-2170

[-] 1 points by The1capitalist (87) 2 years ago

don't any of you realize that you are being played. nobody gets suspicious when slogans like "we are the 99%" start popping up? sheeple

[-] 1 points by freeows (84) 2 years ago

Do you mean same as the way we were played when US government convinced the majority of us that we should invade Iraq? And Sadamm Hussein had something to do with 9/11? And Iraq had the WMD? That millions of Iraqees should be bombed for following US democracy style? Perhaps this time is different. We are willing played by ourselves to save ourselves from government's and banks' corruption?

[-] 1 points by The1capitalist (87) 2 years ago

Let me guess you want bigger gov't too right? i mean "democracy" as you all keep seeming to call it

[-] 1 points by monkeyman (6) 2 years ago

If by bigger government you mean bigger government because they nationalize the oil companies then yes, actually. The 'profits' could then be paid into the bank accounts of every citizen every month, like Gadafi did in Lybia. And we could have free health care, like was in Gadafi's Lybia too, and free education with a living stipend, like was in Lybia. Or we could live in a capitalist wasteland, where the 1% rule and enrich themselves at the expense of the many, like in America.

[-] 0 points by The1capitalist (87) 2 years ago

Lybia? Really? Lybia? Are you friggin kidding me?

You people are NUTS

My guess is that you are either a malcontent whiner who doesn't want to blame himself for the failings in his own life. Or you have come to my country to ferment trouble.

If it is the former, than here is reality. Where you are in this world is a consequence of your, actions. YOUR actions. You don't want to blame the man in the mirror, it is to hard for too many people to look themselves in the eye and admit to themselves that their life is a product of their own actions. It is much simpler to blame the all encompassing "Them, They" then it is to realize you are a loser. If you want to stop being a loser, take control of your life and quit being a victim.

If it is the latter. Get the F@CK out of my country and stay the F@CK out of my country

[-] -1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Bush blew up the WTC and had a missile hit the Pentagon. There is vivid proof of that. see my blog

I am blue in the face trying to speak reasonably to liberals on here and sitting in the park. That didn't work at all.

I won sales contests 1 to Hawaii and the other to Rome. I know when to dump a prospect who will never take the deal that is in his own interest. Therefore my insults have no downside. My insults are meant to punish each person who is sinking my ship. Think about that.

Email to nominate Glenn Greenwald

Glenn,

If OWS fails to nominate candidates for the 2012 election, this protest is a monumental waste of time. Sitting in the park whining and demanding is howling at the moon. Depending on a bribed government for justice or anything fair is idiotic.

On 11/8 when you address the OWS movement I will attempt to draft you to be the OWS candidate for the 2012 election. Jon Stewart, Michael Moore, and Steven Colbert need to get on the ballot to run for the Senate of NJ & NY. The unions can bank roll the party and I will run for the CT 4th district Green Party. Liberals better start waking up to reality and quit voting for bribed Democrats.

Steve http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/

Media interviewing nitwits to be president

The media decisions to interview morons, nitwits, and imbeciles who make irrational claims over and over and over again would have no audience if Americans weren't in a deep trance. The OWS decision to not nominate candidates who could easily win elections against every incumbent in office is a ridiculous mistake. America is doomed.

America is too lovable to let it be destroyed

[-] 1 points by Fredone (234) 2 years ago

Well I think you should go over there and tell them that, then. Or start your own system. Or you could wake up and realize that it is actually not that good an idea. Electing candidates has it's place, but actually the Occupy movement does not have the power to do that very well yet. When we get big enough it is probably a good idea. IN ADDITION to doing things from without the system.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Fredone, I respond to you hoping your mind is capable of rational thought because the issue is black and white. If you haven't seen the Colbert OWS piece on your computer, please watch it. He makes fun but he understands politics better than all of you people who have no clue. My gripes are the same as your gripes but I focus on the key problem that must be solved first.

BRIBES is the word. Public financed elections is the ONLY cure. The congress will never stop the bribes because they are there only to take BRIBES.

Electing a 3rd party candidate like me dedicated to do this is the only remedy. If you refuse to understand that simple fact you are dumb or in the trance created by the same propaganda they have used to manipulate the entire country. I assume you aren't dumb. My # is 203-612-1987

I have been to the park 6 times to try my best to convince the GA but I failed. I have been trying to use this forum. I was kicked off the nycga forum for trying to explain the truth. The NYCGA that claims it is open to all ideas are liars. I use English words that describe my thoughts like ridiculous, dumb, trance, nonsense etc.

Let's resolve this today, right now.

[-] -1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago
  • bribes. That is the entire campaign but OWS refuses to nominate candidates.
[-] -1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

99% assholes

[-] 1 points by monkeyman (6) 2 years ago

Steve you are so rude. Stop it. Close your eyes, stop thinking, listen to your breath, and stop working for the bad guys.

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Insulting my intelligence is rude. Please read what I just posted to you. I know you didn't have time to read it. Please don't insult my intelligence.

[-] 1 points by JFKINAZ (2) 2 years ago

ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE! Set a clear list of demands with brave leaders and spokespersons. Tell the special interests to get out of Washington and take their special interest money with them. Limit the peoples branch, Congress, to two terms max, and set a financial cap on publicly funded elections. Progress can occur then. We dont have to reinvent the wheel here, JUST FIX IT!

[-] 1 points by RossWolfe (34) 2 years ago

Yes, there certainly is precedent for consensus voting and organizational horizontality in the women's liberation movement. However, its general chaos and ineptitude led the pioneer second-wave feminist Joreen Freeman to author a prophetic essay, which is eerily similar to what we are witnessing today:

"THE TYRANNY OF STRUCTURELESSNESS" (1970)

http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm

[-] 1 points by mwagshol (120) from Seattle, WA 2 years ago

very helpful, this should be brought to the GA's

[-] 1 points by Fredone (234) 2 years ago

Along with the scores of other essays by people who have used direct democracy and found it to work a dream. Like all the other occupations? Yeah. We are breaking new ground here and have no need to get mired in the past.

Also this is by no measure structureless or even deficient in good structure.

[-] 1 points by Outlier (115) 2 years ago

A truly inspiring and constructive paradigm.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

As long as we don't define IT and we don't try to scale IT, and measure IT, every system works.

I'm for hope, and good changes. I have lived through better times with a flawed system. We knew it was flawed and we thought of some changes that we thought would make it better. They might have but we couldn't get them done. Then, apathy was the enemy. Now it is corruption. How I long for apathy. If we could get back to that and you would work harder for change...

Hmmmmm..

[-] 1 points by OccupyBoston (14) from Boston, MA 2 years ago

"Decisions are made democratically, without voting, by general assent."

Kinda like what the FED and bankers do with money.

As always be careful becoming that wich you mock.

[-] 1 points by Billyblastoff (33) 2 years ago

I admire the democratic way of the concensus system. However, the ability to block a motion from a single member would make the decision making process very difficult with an increase in the voter's population and the complexity of issues.

The veto right in the UN makes decision making very difficult, conflicting interests of a single nation are often blocking otherwise sound decision making of the whole. I can't see it as a functional alternative to direct democracy using secure servers.

Using the common username password scheme on secure servers could already be more efficient to the movement by rallying people outside the physical locations. Letting the user download the results of the votes would make the system hacker proof as one would be able to verify that his/her voice is accounted for.

[-] 1 points by scottx (7) 2 years ago

Scott X and the Constitution Commandos "Fighting the U.S. Police State with Music" Music Videos & Rock Album http://www.youtube.com/user/scottxmysteryband

[-] 1 points by mserfas (652) from Ashland, PA 2 years ago

This is an inspiring observation, but ... what would you do about a troll? What if one of the nefarious naysayers who pester this online site shows up to your meeting? I've seen "consensus" work on Wikipedia... but then again, I've also seen it not work on Wikipedia. In particular, based on that example, I suspect that once OWS becomes successful, once it is seen as something with political and advertising value, then you'll have all kinds of people worming their way in and doing anything they possibly can to subvert it to their own purposes. And OWS has been pretty darn successful already.

[-] 1 points by chrysalis12481 (6) from Shokan, NY 2 years ago

We can learn from indigenous communites for whom this process is traditional as well.

[-] 1 points by chrysalis12481 (6) from Shokan, NY 2 years ago

We can learn from indigenous communites for whom this process is traditional as well.

[-] 1 points by paulscottwright (17) 2 years ago

i love you all so much for doing this for the world and each other and yourself. no one can prove that my love for you all exists, but i don't need proof. i just know. the world that we're leaving behind is just a glance away at the moment, so for those who wish to keep the old world and it's ways, just take a really good look back at it now, while you have the chance......is that the world you choose??? have not hope for the future, but know the future is our choice. choose your future and dream beyond your wildest dreams of that future, for you and for the whole world. have no fear, and you will see your future much more clearly. life is choice and choice is power. we are pure love, divine spirit each and every one of us and we are stronger by the minute. we are the people. power to the people, much love and peace always from all of us here in the isle of man x x x

[-] 1 points by ElBarku (1) 2 years ago

I don't get what the big picture goal here is. Is it to have a GA in every state? Every city? It is to make each state/each GA autonomous?

Right now you seem to have a majority of like-minded individuals that have been united under a central cause. It is easy to be "united" right now because the "cause" still remains largely undefined. The decisions made thus far have been basic and not deep, idealogical decisions. Even so, there have been signs of dischord between factions within OWS (e.g. drumming, food distribution, drug use). That being said, the GA model can work for minor decisions. What happens if this movement grows as you hope and GAs try to make decisions on socio-economic or morality issues like illegal alien access to benefits/education, welfare reform, sex education, praying in public schools, abortion rights, same sex marriage. Do you think the GA model would work for these issues as well? And don't just say "we trust in people to make the right decision" because you have to realize that some individuals have vastly different viewpoints than those that make up OWS. Don't forget your GAs would have to include those Tea Party members, average Joes and people with unknown motives influencing their positions. Do you really think a GA can work once you TRULY encompass everyone?

I'm just trying to get a grasp on how the GA would work in the big picture. Its nice to say OWS has brought together thousands to vote on issues such as when to march or allocating $5k resources here or there but are you really saying a GA of hundreds of thousands of residents in a given area would be able to achieve the same results easily?

[-] 2 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

I really don't know what the agenda is (many people, many agenda's I guess), but the big picture is what emerges at the end of the day. What I see, is that people are watching, people are listening, people are waking up, people are inspired, people are learning, and there is hope for a better world. This is amazing and beautiful!

All real change must start with the individual. This country was founded on the general principle of self government. Unfortunately, many adults do not even know what this concept is. Therefore, even if they had an abundance of wealth, they could not participate in a democratic government. At the community level individuals can learn from each other and pull themselves out of despair and slumber. They can rise above the melee and the many voices can become one force for a better world.

Many people, many agenda's, but at the end of the day, that is the big picture and the simple truth as I see it.

[-] 1 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I get a lot of your reservations; I'm generally on the fence about the whole idea of "direct democracy." Just a few suggestions to complement what you're saying:

  1. Since there's no real "authority" behind the idea of general consensus, there's no reason it couldn't be modified as the movement spreads. Not that there's not a bit of a catch-22 situation in this, but since the NYCGA was, by its own logic and sentiment, only supposed to speak for itself, there's no reason other areas couldn't introduce their own procedures, including something more representative, if that's what they wanted (I guess subject to regular revisions of procedure if more people start turning out and want a different system).

  2. I think there's some real merit about the representative system, provided it's flexible. One of the thing that advocates of direct democracy don't consider (at least in my experience) is that a lot of what they want about direct democracy is better solved by representation. Direct democracy is incredibly homogenizing - it basically requires that everyone comes out to participate in all decisions, and following procedures. The outcome ends up converting everyone to a certain kind of behavior (which is also why historically it's only worked in small communities, as you've suggested). If you went into it wanting a chance to voice your individual concerns, you're either going to end up grossly outvoted or convinced that your original concern was irrelevant - in either case, it's exclusion that's not self-willed.

  3. But maybe we think about this as one tactic among many. The direct democracy/consensus approach has been largely successful so far, and I think it's mainly because people who have felt disenfranchised by mainstream politics see themselves as having an opportunity here. (Not that this doesn't attract nuts, as well, or the rightwing media looking for nuts to discredit us). As a tactic, rather than a permanent procedure, it allows people to understand that there are people out there who are willing to acknowledge their concerns and hear what they have to say. If we make it to the grander scale, there's no reason to abandon this, even if on the national scale the consensus method isn't continued. I guess in short what I'm saying is that the GA does one really great thing: it lets people who have felt marginalized understand that people want to hear what they have to say, even if they don't ultimately act on it. I don't see the Tea Party types all going for this, but a serious number of them probably will like it (seriously, this has happened already, despite what the MSM has been reporting - there are a number of R. Paul supporters at OWS who have gone so far as to be willing to be arrested alongside of the rest of us).

  4. So in the end I guess it matters what you mean by "encompass everyone." If the idea is that localities get to decide for themselves, it could work. It would also require a revision of representative democracy on the national scale, but that doesn't preclude direct participation on the local level. I know that this will present practical problems (and spiritual ones, since a lot of the measures the type of person who goes to the NYCGA would support would not find broad-based support in, say, Mississippi). But those are the breaks. There's still a lot to be said just for the fact that the other members of the community want to meet you face to face, without preestablished hierarchies, to hear what you have to say - and the GA format seems to be one of the first things to allow this in decades.

[-] 1 points by KiriofGreenfield (21) 2 years ago

I love your comment! I believe the next step for the movement as a whole is to acknowledge the role that local processes (GA's, for instance) have in grounding and coalescing the evolving visions of this movement. It is not necessary to have a national platform of ideals. OWS is just as much about process as it is about complaints about the unfairness of the system. Those of you who bemoan that OWS is not endorsing candidates - the reason why is because it is the PROCESS of fair decision-making (be it consensus, modified, vote or whatnot) that is actually the answer to our situation. We are dissatisfied with the current economic-political process; so we are engaging in (discovering, creating, remembering) processes that are directly empowering to the participants.

There may come a day when OWS or some group that arises from it will endorse candidates if it seems appropriate, but that day cannot come yet. Now is the time for people to hear the call to discuss these issues together and come up with their own answers. Each locality will have it's own answers. I suspect there may be a lot of commonality in theme and moray, yes, simply because of the simple and clear banner of "the 99%". That WE should have the power over our lives rather than a set of elites removed from the realities that we face daily by the cushioning effect of their riches.

Localities should decide for themselves, yes. And when we have all taken the time to articulate our collective visions on the local level, we can see how they compare over the nation. Believe me, that in itself can change electoral politics. Politicians will take notice and follow the trend. But that does not mean our work is done, for the powers-that-be will only give so much towards any "demands" we might make. The real power that we have is to define our own lives and make changes in our own hometowns. Not just recycling changes: real ones, like withdrawing our fiscal support from the system that shortchanges us and threatens our future, our children's and grandchildren's futures.

The point is we do not need the 1% or their pocketed politicians to make lasting cultural change. There really is no one to do that but ourselves.

That's the genius of this movement, and I am so glad for those anarchists! What we are creating is a space by which we may truly dialogue - and the work is only beginning.

I am more concerned about a previous post from the working single mom. How can she participate? How can others too trapped by the struggle of daily living to afford an evening off a week for a general assembly?

[-] 1 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

One of the things that's always batted around in discussions at Zuccotti is the idea of "where" the occupation is really taking place (this has come up more lately because so many of us are commuters - we occupy the site for a few hours and then bring it home). I've heard "OccupyEarth" and "OccupyTheLivingRoom," both of which speak to the working single moms out there - hopefully they can connect via tech, but even if they can't, the solution is twofold: one, they're already with us if they have the same spirit we do, and, two, we're expanding occupations (just yesterday Occupy Brooklyn kicked off). The more we spread, the closer we'll be!

But I do get the point (especially because our house isn't rich by any stretch of the imagination, and my wife is setting up her own business while working another job - no time to participate directly at all!). I think we'll have to find a way to make the GA more than just a sited event, but that doesn't sound like something that's too far off. (Here my technological inadeptitude (this is a term I prefer to "ineptitude") will get in the way and I'll explain it wrong...) The IT team is making it possible to download the whole framework of the Occupy site so that local occupations can use it, and we can consolidate our efforts this way. There's no reason that any small group of people can come together and organize their community in a form that's amenable to them, and still be linked to the main movement through the sharing of the sites (hopefully, they'll make it understandable enough that people who aren't professionals can figure out how to work it). This means that the idea of "community" can change form to fit circumstances - a group of working people who can't afford time off in the evenings or to leave their kids for a while can get together to do things their way whenever they can make themselves available to each other.

[-] 1 points by KiriofGreenfield (21) 2 years ago

This is a long term process and we should allow for space to attend to it in as many ways as possible.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Their goal is to keep losing while they sit in the park and whine.

They refuse to nominate candidates to win the 2012 election.

[-] 1 points by Oldfool (1) from Ridgefield, CT 2 years ago

I have gotten much of my wisdom from the native American elders I have been blessed to meet. When someone requests a judgement you are required to stay in cession until you give a unanimous one. If you think your idea was better never complain about the judgement. If you are right everyone will come to the same conclusion anyway.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

You are dead wrong. Go back to sleep.

[-] 1 points by JohnWa (513) 2 years ago

The human future is at stake.

The longer Ponzi "economies" are allowed to run then the less that is left, the greater the destruction and poorer the human future will be; the greater the crash and the smaller the sustainable population that will be able to survive.

A real economic structure takes into account resources used, resources left, human costs and costs to the biosphere.

The 1% only look at their self centered profit possibilities and do not count the costs paid by others of losses and damage to the biosphere much of which will be permanent.

We have no option but to put a real economy in place that feeds all without damage to the earth. To hell with the 1% who would try to prevent that.

OWS is the most powerful motivation for hope mankind has experienced.

Knowledge is the power that will help the protesters and those like minds apart but united through the web, to share and to make consensus as a collusion against the system of slavery and destruction falls into place.

[-] 1 points by kilnilbil (2) 2 years ago

First of all direct Democracy is nothing more than "mob rule" by the Majority. The United States was never set up to be a pure direct Democracy, it is instead a Democratic Republic (ie and to the Republic for which it stands)

Second of all the word "Democracy" is found throughout the old Soviet Unions Documents and your comments and blogs read like they were cut and pasted from that source.

Third in a Direct Democracy, there is no standard of set laws, ie the Constitution whereby the rights of individuals and minority groups are protected from "rule by referendum" like you see in California. This was done in order to avoid the chaos that would come from a vote on whatever the popular idea of the day is. In that case 1 million people could vote "no" and 1 million and 1 people could vote "Yes" and the referendum would become law with rights and views for the Million who voted "No" would become mute with no recourse

Fourth and last, even the Greeks realized the dangers of a "Pure Direct Democracy" and they went on to say, that once the receivers of tax dollars outnumber the payers of tax dollars, the recievers would vote themselves more and more until the coffers were empty and the country or "City State" would become bankrupt. On this point all you have to do is look at Greece today and you will see what that would look like.

Your movements anger and discontent with the current system is understandable, but the target of this discontent is off mark by about 300 miles north. Turn your anger towards Washington, DC instead

[-] 2 points by bobduke (2) 2 years ago

To put it simply, Direct Democracy is five wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner.

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 2 years ago

Thank you. I ageree.

[-] 1 points by kilnilbil (2) 2 years ago

Therein lies the problem. There truly is no need to "invent" a new system, just return to the system the founding fathers envisioned,,,a Representative Democratic Republic.

In their vision, the average person was not equipped mentally or educationally or had time to deal with the more complex issues that confronted the people (masses). Therefore the idea was to select (elect not appoint) a member or the community of high repute and intellectual standing to represent them as a whole. However, this concept has become corrupt because once these reps became intrenched, their whole attention was turned to either being re-elected or enriching themselves and their cronies or both.

I say, take the original US Constitution, throw out ALL the amendments and all the laws generated by judicial decree and start from scratch. Precedent based on previous Bad Precedent creates even worse Precedent and is a self perpetuating monster.

No need to re-invent the wheel, when the one we have rolls quite well, that is if to many people have not shaved of a bit here and bit there until it becomes a square. At that point, throw out the square and revert back to the original wheel

[-] 1 points by mwagshol (120) from Seattle, WA 2 years ago

I like your point, you should share it on this more 'structured' forum so it does not get lost and can induce debate: http://www.themultitude.org/forum/index.php

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 2 years ago

I like your perspective. Maybe with our re-amakening we could keep a better eye on them this time. lol

[-] 1 points by Novista (14) 2 years ago

Interesting that you state an either-or that many others have.

Have you ever considered that Wall St + federal government is a perfect example of symbiosis?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

anarchist believe people want to get along

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 2 years ago

People want to get along until their needs aren't met.

[-] 1 points by Fredone (234) 2 years ago

That's why you make sure everyone's needs are met, which is the sort of society we want to live in anyway.

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 2 years ago

Alot of people see their wants as needs. I feel your post is naive. You cannot meet everyones perceived needs all the time and you cannot rely on your ability to convince people that they dont really want what they want. People are more evovled than we are treated, but I feel like you are buying into some childish chimera.

[-] 1 points by felice1978 (1) from Mariglianella, Campania 2 years ago

http://systemfailure2011.blogspot.com/

tell your friends/fallo girare

[-] 1 points by nich (57) 2 years ago

People that want goals and agendas are the establishment. They want then because they've been destroying people's goals and agendas for years. the longer we stay silent and grow, the more freaked out they'll get, the more mistakes they'll make. they will end up frightening themselves into giving the store away. Hang tight, As scary as it seems, they are more afraid, have more to lose(they think) What we have, cannot be lost or taken away. Everyone knows why they are there, that is a lot. Way more than they have.

[-] 2 points by teddy (6) from Bedford, VA 2 years ago

Beautiful...Stay silent and grow.....well put.... gather strength, reach critical mass, and then and only then, take dead aim and attack..

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

not planning on killing anyone

[-] 1 points by teddy (6) from Bedford, VA 2 years ago

Two seconds after I pushed the "save" button on that previous post, I thought "Uh,oh- I should've added "figuratively" ..

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I often edit after I post and sometimes delete

for reasons of misplacement of response

.

Everyone thinks in violent terms

Humans have recorded violent events through out history

Fiction stories contain violence

these stories are tragedies

[-] 1 points by Vicewatch (43) 2 years ago

Consensus has made OWS grow and shot the movement way past the trap of party identification, and built a new body of knowledge about the crippling effects of corruption (which comes to us via the corporate hand operating political puppets from all parties) on our economy and our country. Bravo!

And speaking of corruption, here is someone who is a great resource for how it happened and how to fight it- amazing interview at Occupy Wall Street:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XJe7O-3QBc&feature=player_embedded

[-] 1 points by EDpeak (5) from Silver Spring, MD 2 years ago

Jenix: if you oppose collectivism, you should oppose the most powerful collectivist entities in human history, the artificial legal entities which exist to maximize the externalization of costs onto everyone else, while maximizing short term market-distorting narrowly defined profits: the modern Transnational Corporation, the most uber-collectivist of them all (even individually even before they join into alliances with one another)

Tovah1984: the point you raise is real, and democracy (including the representative kind) is always more "difficult" than dictatorial/authoritarian models. But such "unreasonable people" exist even if we use an authoritarian model.

We can brush it under the rug and pretend they don't exist, but they always exist. So the choice is system is key. Which do we want? Theproblem is larger than you describe, not just "unreasonable people" but "reasonable but incompatible" and they exist no matter what system. Do we want a system where a hammer can be brought down on such people? That same hammer can be brought on anyone else, then. Or do we want a system without a hammer which requires more "work" therefore, but no hammer can be used against anyone. Ultimately if incompatible they can and will go off to create a separate organization, institution, commune, community center, group, etc, if they cannot agree by being "unreasonable" or "reasonable but incompatible"

Another point others have made: consensus is not meant to be universal. Some decisions (what I eat at my home) I do not want voting and do not want consensus either: only I should decide what I eat. Another example, four people want to have run outside. Two want to play frisbee, the other two want to play catch. No one is saying we should force them all into consensus..they can split off and each pair plays the game it wants, before regrouping.

But consensus is a tool which while not for universal application (as in the above example) is still useful in many situations.

[-] 0 points by occupywallstreetloser (2) 2 years ago

Morons.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 2 years ago

Hmmmm, as far as I can tell no one ever established a way to gain the authority to meet demands under law. Unfortunately, this eventually renders the effort lawless.----

Most of the demands made can or will only be dealt with on the highest possible authority, that of the ultimate democrcay in America, Article 5 of the constitution.-----

Congress and the pres will not do any of it. They, in fact, have created the problems.----

Congress is very afraid of an Article 5 of the US constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_to_propose_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution "Congress acted preemptively to propose the amendments instead. At least four amendments (the Seventeenth, Twenty-First, Twenty-Second, and Twenty-Fifth Amendments) have been identified as being proposed by Congress at least partly in response to the threat of an Article V convention."

Our first right in our contract is Article V, the right to have congress convene delgates when 2/3 of the states have applied for an amendatory convention.

Article. V.

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.-------

Learn about the article 5 convention to propose amendments.

Analysis of applications. http://www.foa5c.org/mod/resource/view.php?id=2

A lawsuit against all members of congress for not calling an Article 5. http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html

Article V conference, Mark Meckler Lawrence Lessig at harvard 9/25/11-video comments http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-7ikbvu0Y8

Lessig power point on article V http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gpbfY-atMk

A effort each evening to create a web conference to discuss Article 5 is beginning.-- http://www.articlevmeeting.info/

Comprehensive strategy.--- http://algoxy.com/ows/strategyofamerica.html

[-] 1 points by Fredone (234) 2 years ago

No, when we have the mandate of the people that is all that matters. We already have more than 50% public approval. We will come up with solutions, and then push them through by referendum if we have to, nothing to it. And the referendum will work too because the GAs represent the mosaic of society, so what they decide is good is very very likely to pass with flying colors in a referendum. That's it, that is all we need. We can do electoral reform like that.

The main problem is overcoming propaganda. When people show up on site the mainstream media manure is washed off their eyes pretty fast, but so far only a small fraction of the population actually shows up. We have ways though, plenty of ways.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 2 years ago

The problem is that no authority is invoked with an un official public approval and exactly where would a referendum be conducted?------

Consider, we claim 99%, and while that is happening vets are getting shot in the head with tear gas cannisters in oakland. Recall, that is where a citizen was held down on his face by 2 bart cops and then one shot him in the back with a 9mm killing him on the first day of 2010. The cop did a year, time served.------

We need to invoke specific law that WILL defend and uphold our constitution.

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Clueless. Congress is laughing their asses off. OWS refuses to nominate candidates to defeat congress.

[-] 0 points by FreeMarkets (272) 2 years ago

Under collectivism, powers of determination rest with the entire citizenry instead of with the specific citizens. Individual decision-making is replaced by the political process. Suddenly, the system that elected the prom queen at your high school is in charge of your whole life.

~ PJ O'Rourke

[-] 0 points by bobby (58) from Quincy, CA 2 years ago

To: Prime Minister Roseanne Barr [Green Tea] Prime Minister Gail Lightfoot [Libertarian] Prime Minister Charles Bruce Stewart [Green Libertarian] Secretary Jacob Covich [Catholic Trotskyist] Cc: All Voters and Non Voters From: Secretary James Ogle [Free Parliamentary] Subject: USP: Day to Day Updates 10/30/2011


Note: Please feel free to engage or disengage from this communication link by sending the message "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to joogle@gonott.com or by telephone at 415-686-1996. OK to "reply all". Anonymous forwarder now available upon request. http://www.usparliament.org/


  1. Two Elections's Deadlines Extended

The two ranked choice eballot election deadlines have been extended through 11/11/11 in order to get more participants in the efforts.

The eballots are for the election of the Mid-West Super-state Parliament and for the Direct Democracy (DD) Election for the Planks on the Platform of the national USA Parliament executives' ballot.

Click on the "Vote Here" tab on the USA Parliament's main navigation bar to locate the links to the eballots and follow the directions on one or both eballots.

http://usparliament.org/votehere.php

You're asked to copy and paste the eballot to an email message, mark your choices with consecutive numbers beginning with the number "1", and then email your marked eballot to the volunteer vote counters.



Ad for GoNott Search and GoNott Advertise http://usparliament.org/drafts/coalition7CA2014.html Volunteer Beta Testers Wanted



Roseanne Barr for President 2012 Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Roseanne-Barr-for-President-2012/153524907998543



Posted in RoseanneWorld.com and USParliament.org Forum: http://www.roseanneworld.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=75251#75251 http://usparliament.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=502&p=1016#p1016



US-PAR: All voters, non-voters and news media (approx. 247 subscribers). -*- Please feel free to engage or disengage to this email list by sending the message "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to joogle@gonott.com.


end

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

The bank fraud OWS doesn't understand

All the bank officers created fees when they knowingly made mortgages from the depositors money to a borrower they knew could never pay the adjusted payment. Every teaser loan was a simple fraud.

The banks induced (by their advertisements) suckers to take money with teaser payments to get fees. That's a bank fraud under the law. All the bank officers paid bribes to every congress person to prevent being charged for fraud.

That political campaign would win the 2012 election for 3rd party candidates. Republicans and Democrats will never arrest themselves for taking the bribes. OWS fails to understand this fact.

[-] 1 points by JohnWa (513) 2 years ago

Banks lend money they don't have and charge interest on it as well as get thet money back as well.

The Fiat money is just figures entered into an account.

It is called the fractional reserve system and creates inflation as they fatten off the community, not off money that is theirs.

The privately owned US Fedreal Reserve is paid by Govt for every cent of money it creates at no cost to itself and then also interest is paid on that.

The Federal reserve was created late at night on 23 Dec 1913 with legislation passed by only 4 congressmen present when the rest had left for Xmas. Congress was against creating such a bank. A planned rort by an organized corrupt gang who still exist today channeling wealth to their small group of approx 300 families - a secret society of parasites with enormous power that tightly control our country, poiticians, media, Hollywood, Disneyland and most communication networks. Their wealth is massive but so is their greed. The president appoints two of the Fredral reserve board which leads the public to think it is a Govt organisation. The reverse is true that Govt is controlled by the wealth of the money and the power they have to construct supply and plunge us into depression as they have done for even greater profit. During depressions the rich buy up assets at fire sale prices.

The pain and suffering of the public does not hurt their plunder, but is a part of it.

Bankers are parasites and have paid / bribed / blackmailed politicians to enact laws to allow this.

It is a Ponzi system where the bankers are the only winners and now are totally in control with ownership of the media to control our minds.

OWS is the first break in this wall of control and now the news is out people are rallying all over the world.

Corruption stops intelligent planning for the planet and human future, and time is running out for humans and the planets biosphere.

We suffer the slavery to these criminals who run the finance system. They have earned out anger thousands of times over, in fact for hundreds of years with some banking families operating in high secrecy organising global tryrany.

Google "Bilderberg" The annual secret meeting organized by the Bankers Cartel where plans for their expansion of wealth are modified.

The sustainable future is never allowed to become an issue of global. national or even local discussion.

Google "Limits To Growth".

This was a scientifically researched report published in 1972 warning of mankind's exponential expansion and the long term problems we will encounter.

Immediately the bankers rubbished it and and many people today still have the impression that the report is wrong. My advise is read it and the updates since showing it is right on track. Disaster lays ahead if we don't change how we manage human use of the planet.

There is so much crap put out regarding growth and economics that don't take into account our diminishing chances of continuing the way we are.

As the resources of this planet get changed by human exploitation then it is now obvious we must stop the expansion and reduce out impact or the chances of avoiding a massive crash within a few years is hopelessly slim.

We are fed lies by the bankers and financiers while they fill their purses without any responsibility for the future.

The longer they are left in control then the less resources left to sustain the future population with. Already we have overshot in many aspects of our activity and the USA is the worse offender dirven by the 1% greed and control.

The longer we operate on over exploitation and resultant overshoot of he world's natural resources, stuff up the biosphere with emissions and pollution created by fossil fuels and consumerism feeding the rich; then the less will be left.

The results has to be a much smaller sustainable human population in the long run. The longer we carry on the way we are then the bigger the crash and the smaller the surviving population that is able to be sustained.

[-] 1 points by sylrse (38) 2 years ago

I can't speak for OWS, just myself. I understand this fact, and when I first started following OWS, I wondered, with a year to go before the elections, if this could evolve into a third party. I suspect it could.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

It won't because they refuse to nominate any candidates. They want to throw in a pat hand. They want to sit in the park and whine. That's what liberals do.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

It won't. The libs are too dumb. They register independent and vote Dem.

I thought it would be easy to organize a Green Party from them. They are ignorant.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

America is too lovable to let it be destroyed

It’s Up To You To Save America from itself.

I have solutions for:

1) Jobs, 2) Simple & fair taxation, 3) Health care, 4) Energy, 5) Justice, 6) Stop the bribes, and the liars -- Obama

read more http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/

[-] 0 points by burger2go (0) 2 years ago

So, I wonder which bank the OWC organizers put the $600,000 in cash donations they have recieved? I wonder why they refuse to share it with other protestors. I wonder if the organizors realize they have just become a 1%, controlling the weath with the few, and restricting it from the many. I do not wonder about the stupidity and hypocracy that the lawless bums that are sponsored by ACORN and MOVEONT.ORG and others who could care less about the "cause", and are using these fools to further their political agenda so that they too may share the power they crave.

[-] 0 points by JohnBWatson (0) 2 years ago

Prolonged idleness paralyzes initiative.

Unknown Source

[-] 1 points by Dost (315) 2 years ago

You got it, John.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

lol I read prologue

[-] 0 points by Johnw (44) 2 years ago

Here is an idea for a new third party based on surveys. http://thenewthirdparty.blogspot.com/

[-] -1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

The easy way is to use the Green Party. Its all set up but the people involved are fools. The OWS needs to take it over.

OWS better start getting informed.

read more http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/

The expert economists destroyed the economy

The score doesn't count when people are in a trance by the writers who are expert brain washers. Ron Suskind wrote a book and he's giving a speech that makes Obama a genius who manages this "complex organism". They are expert with words that are lies proven by the busted banks and foreclosed families in the street.

You can watch this hoax on the C-span Book TV website. If you watch this you will believe every word because you have no clue. "Confidence is the coin of the realm. Reagan is the master of exuding confidence no matter what the facts may be," says Suskind.

Stunning, breath taking speeches by Obama. This guy is full of shit while he's jerking off dreaming about Obama. He's the smartest guy you'll ever meet, but he can't manage it. This bastard is a smug scheming shill for Obama who wrote this book to trick everybody about Obama. I'd love to crack him with a baseball bat. I'm not a liberal whiner, sucker.

[-] 1 points by Novista (14) 2 years ago

I have encountered c'n'p artists before. With slogan like "OWS better start getting informed."

Obviously, you believe you are smarter than the average bear and that OWS needs the advice as it sorely lacking in information. I wonder if you village misses you.

[-] -1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Media interviewing nitwits to be president

The media decisions to interview morons, nitwits, and imbeciles who make irrational claims over and over and over again would have no audience if Americans weren't in a deep trance. The OWS decision to not nominate candidates who could easily win elections against every incumbent in office is a ridiculous mistake.

America is doomed. read more http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/

[-] -1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

You are an arrogant smart ass dope. I'm not the average bear.

The bank fraud OWS doesn't understand

All the bank officers created fees when they knowingly made mortgages from the depositors money to a borrower they knew could never pay the adjusted payment. Every teaser loan was a simple fraud.

The banks induced (by their advertisements) suckers to take money with teaser payments to get fees. That's a bank fraud under the law. All the bank officers paid bribes to every congress person to prevent being charged for fraud.

That political campaign would win the 2012 election for 3rd party candidates. Republicans and Democrats will never arrest themselves for taking the bribes. OWS fails to understand this fact.

[-] 1 points by monkeyman (6) 2 years ago

Steve.Youaredeterminedtocontinueshoutingthatweshouldbeathirdpartyinacorruptandhorriblesystem.Thereisanotherway.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

No there isn't monkeyman. Being wrong for 20 years -- read more -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/

I was raised in a family that followed politics and current events. We discussed politics and current events almost every day. I traded stocks since I was 15 years old so economics was crucial for me like golf was crucial to Tiger Woods since he was 3 years old. I knew about Ross Perot before he brought EDS (Electronic Data Systems) public and made a fortune. I studied Ronald Reagan and Reaganomics. I studied Paul Volker and the monetary policy of Milton Friedman. I created a hedging system for interest rates using Treasury futures in 1979 when I was hired to use that system after being a broker for EF Hutton and Smith Barney for 13 years from 1966 until 1979.

My point is that I'm an informed, intelligent person who has real experience with real money and real profits and losses. When Ross Perot campaigned for being president I worked in his campaign because I knew that when Perot said that, "If NAFTA is passed by George Bush that America would hear a giant sucking sound." I never imagined that Clinton who was financed by the unions would pass NAFTA for George Bush right after Clinton got inaugurated but he did. I knew that Clinton was a liar when he claimed he didn't inhale his pot or he'd have to be the dumbest bastard who ever lived.

I've been waiting for a protest for more than a decade and finally we have OWS. When people finally got so pissed off they began to camp in the park in NYC, I presumed they would be eager to do the only thing possible to combat the 50,000,000 jobs that were stolen from them to enrich the privileged. The only thing possible is to nominate candidates ready to defy "political correct" bribes that all politicians take to allow the trade policy, and the tax policy used by our elected government to steal those jobs and replace those American workers with slaves from different countries, primarily from China. It wasn't enough that American business would exploit Mexicans at $2 per hour, they wanted the work to be done for nothing.

Globalization is the code word for slavery which has stolen our jobs. If Americans want the middle class that created our prosperity, globalization must be ended -- not by new legislation -- by implementing the 13th amendment which abolished slavery in 1865.

If anybody wanted to bet me that I couldn't go to the park and convince the protestors to nominate candidates for the 2012 election to implement their demands, I would have gladly taken that bet. I make lots of bets and sometimes I lose those bets but I win most of my bets. A few times I've bet the ranch because I knew for a fact that I couldn't possibly lose that. The only bet I needed to risk was the $18.50 cost of transportation I needed to spend to get to the park 6 times. I've been wrong 6 times on top of being wrong about the response I got from all the people on the OWS forum websites. I was finally blocked by the NYCGA for my arguments on their website by a bunch of liberals who falsely claim they are open to all ideas.

I know for a fact that most Americans aren't stupid. I know for a fact that all conservatives are stupid or they wouldn't be conservatives. Being wrong for more than 20 years is a long time to be wrong and not know it. Being self destructive sitting in the park and refusing to grasp the simple fact that unless a 3rd party is elected to congress that justice is never going to happen from an entire elected body who is taking bribes condoned by the United States Supreme Court; can only happen because they are all in a trance. They can't possibly be that stupid.

[-] 1 points by nich (57) 2 years ago

People that want goals and agendas are the establishment. They want then because they've been destroying people's goals and agendas for years. the longer we stay silent and grow, the more freaked out they'll get, the more mistakes they'll make. they will end up frightening themselves into giving the store away. Hang tight, As scary as it seems, they are more afraid, have more to lose(they think) What we have, cannot be lost or taken away. Everyone knows why they are here, that is a lot. Way more than they have.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Are you in a stupid contest?

[-] 1 points by NielsH (212) 2 years ago

nich is exactly right. If you define goals and set an agenda, entire PR campaigns will be put in place to attack those goals. Keep growing until change becomes unavoidable. Then we can hash out our differences and come up with practical solutions.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Being wrong for 20 years

I was raised in a family that followed politics and current events. We discussed politics and current events almost every day. I traded stocks since I was 15 years old so economics was crucial for me like golf was crucial to Tiger Woods since he was 3 years old. I knew about Ross Perot before he brought EDS (Electronic Data Systems) public and made a fortune. I knew all about Ronald Reagan and Reaganomics and Paul Volker, and the monetary policy of Milton Friedman because I developed a hedging system for interest rates using Treasury futures in 1979 when I was hired to use that system which worked.

My point is that I'm an informed, intelligent person who has real experience with real money and real profits and losses. When Ross Perot campaigned for being president I worked in his campaign because I knew that when Perot said that, "If NAFTA is passed by George Bush that America would hear a giant sucking sound." I never imagined that Clinton who was financed by the unions would pass NAFTA for George Bush right after Clinton got inaugurated but he did. I knew that Clinton was a liar when he claimed he didn't inhale his pot or he'd have to be the dumbest bastard who ever lived.

read more http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/

[-] 0 points by Joyce (375) 2 years ago

Good to learn from the photo caption that the H.S contingent found their voice.

[-] -1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

OWS better start getting informed.

The expert economists destroyed the economy

The score doesn't count when people are in a trance by the writers who are expert brain washers. Ron Suskind wrote a book and he's giving a speech that makes Obama a genius who manages this "complex organism". They are expert with words that are lies proven by the busted banks and foreclosed families in the street.

You can watch this hoax on the C-span Book TV website. If you watch this you will believe every word because you have no clue. "Confidence is the coin of the realm. Reagan is the master of exuding confidence no matter what the facts may be," says Suskind.

Stunning, breath taking speeches by Obama. This guy is full of shit while he's jerking off dreaming about Obama. He's the smartest guy you'll ever meet, but he can't manage it. This bastard is a smug scheming shill for Obama who wrote this book to trick everybody about Obama. I'd love to crack him with a baseball bat. I'm not a liberal whiner, sucker.

[-] 1 points by Joyce (375) 2 years ago

Hopefully, in the midst of your mind-altered rant, you discerned extreme sarcasm in my post......hard to tell. Sleep(pass out) well.

[-] 2 points by bjanarch (23) 2 years ago

And why shouldn't it be good to see that the HS contingent found its voice? is there something magical in turning 18 that means that you are now a legitimate candidate to be revolutionary? Or is that magical step when you graduate from college? Perhaps it's when you turn 35 and are able to run for President?

This kind of thinking is dangerous. If a revolution excludes people for who they are rather than their ideals, then it's not a revolution of a people, but it's a revolution of SOME people. That's what we're fighting against: a revolution of some people that has taken place over the last 50 years or so.

This is why I love the people's microphone, as tedious as it is: What is heard is the idea, not how it was said, nor who said it. In a GA of 1000 people, the majority of the participants can't even see who's speaking at any given time, and it's therefore impossible to write them off as, say, a high school student. Good ideas are good ideas, no matter who says them.

[-] 1 points by Joyce (375) 2 years ago

Tis late... If you have ever followed my rants here, which are more numerous than the hurried steps of the Von Trap family, you'd get my jib. My response will be an intensive repose. Hold tight and let's chat. If no response, hit me with a private message so that I might clarify my perspective.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

You stumped me Joyce.

America is too lovable to let it be destroyed

It’s Up To You To Save America from itself.

I have solutions for:

1) Jobs, 2) Simple & fair taxation, 3) Health care, 4) Energy, 5) Justice, 6) Stop the bribes, and the liars -- Obama

read more http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/

[-] 1 points by Joyce (375) 2 years ago

I have no issues, as a conservative, with any of your points. When it appears artificial via HS kids ( whom are entitled to protest) I question the veracity of the visual provided. That's all.

[-] -1 points by oldfatrobby (129) 2 years ago

WE ARE THE 40% AND WE ARE NOT PART OF THE IDIOTIC OWS CAMP OUT. AND WE ARE GROWING.

More Americans identify themselves as Republicans than they did in 2008, a new Gallup survey shows.

The poll, which sampled 88,000 adults in 2008 and 2011, show that 40 percent of respondents now say they consider themselves Republican or lean Republican, up from 37 percent in January-March of 2008.

In comparison, 36 percent of Americans identified as Democrats in 2008.The 2011 figures have not yet been released

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/67051.html#ixzz1cInyhjkS

[-] 1 points by nich (57) 2 years ago

This is not about left and right as defined by the same mokes who sponsor polls and write about the dogfight. They are co-dependents in a sick system. It is a new era, fight it all you want, the clock is ticking.

[-] 0 points by oldfatrobby (129) 2 years ago

You are deluding yourself. You claim to be the 99%, but surveys show there are no Republicans in your group. If Republicans make up 40% of the electorate, simple math indicates you cant be 99%. The OWSers are a collection of politically unaffiliated fringers and left wing Democrats, at a 70%/30% mix. This group has been around forever, but they are now hanging out in small numbers in public parks. Woweee. A new era. Right. Ho hum.

[-] 1 points by freeows (84) 2 years ago

Sharing 2 pupular sayings. And don't hate my sense of humor.

"Slower Minds, Keep Right" "Voting Right! It's easier than thinking."

But after all, we are ALL the 99%, people. To save ourseleves, we do need to jump our of this Left/Right thinking because it does not make sense when we are all screwed by the 1% powerful. We should come together, really.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

The right are complete nitwits. Freeows has no clue. Nominate candidates and wipe out the entire congress now. 2012.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Good math. You passed 2nd grade.

[-] 0 points by oldfatrobby (129) 2 years ago

But the OWSers haven't!

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 2 years ago

You sir are an idiot. The movement is non-partisan. Good day.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Polls are lies.