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Drumming and the Occupation

Posted 3 years ago on Oct. 24, 2011, 6:57 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt

The occupation of Liberty Square is a symbol of the growing international movement fighting against neoliberal economic practices, the crimes of Wall Street and the resulting income inequality, unemployment, and oppression of people at the front lines of the economic crisis. More than a week ago we successfully rallied to defend our occupation from eviction. Knowing that the neighborhood we built was important to our movement, occupiers reorganized the space and prepared for eviction defense, community board and local elects pressured Brookfield Properties, and local organizations and unions mobilized their members in defense of Liberty Square. Brookfield and Bloomberg backed down in the face of this joint effort. #ows has international support, and is part of a global movement for economic and social justice that is only just starting to take form. It is within this context that we must drill down, look inward and converse with each other about our actions in this space.

For weeks, occupiers, working groups, individuals from the community board, and neighbors have approached the drummers on the west side of Liberty Square in an effort to involve them in conversations revolving around their constant presence. The drummers have been asked to stop drumming during quiet hours, to not drum during GA, and to allow other music to enter the square. The drummers, who feel that they are bringing rhythm to the revolution and have a voice that must be heard have felt disrespected and disparaged. The situation has been heated. A division grew within the square as well as with our neighbors. On Oct 13th, the General Assembly of Liberty Square passed a resolution to limit drumming times to 2 hours a day, between the hours of 11 and 5 as part of a good neighbor policy. Many drummers rejected this. A group of mediators began to work with the drummers and reached an agreement that they would instead drum for 4 hours per day, from 12pm - 2pm and 4pm - 6pm. The OWS Community Relations team, drummers, mediators, and several local residents from the community board spent weeks listening, building trust, and figuring out ways for drummers to work in solidarity with the occupation. As a result, drumming dropped from consistent 10 + hours a day, but is occurring more than the 2 hours consensed to by the General Assembly, and more then the 4 hours consensed to by the drummers.

In the spirit of consensus and community, mediation is still in process. The working group Pulse has been formed by the drummers and is working to bring forward proposals to the General Assembly of Liberty Square. This issue has been talked about in the park, at the General Assembly, on forums, and emails for weeks. This is an example of how we as a community share space and how we mobilize together to build consensus between all members of a conversation. Drumming has a loud voice in Liberty Square. Pulse is an important piece of our movement - they are integral to marches, morale, and the general mood of energy we have created. But many within Liberty Square feel as though their voice is being drowned out by the drumming, that it has become difficult to have the conversations that they think are important. We have created a small, vibrant and diverse community within the Square - it is natural that some issues would and will arise, but we hope to work together and continue to effect positive change in this place and in this world.

434 Comments

434 Comments


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[-] 21 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

Here's a hint to the drummers: if you're doing something you think is helpful to those around you, and they repeatedly ask you to please stop doing that thing, chances are its not really helpful at all, and in continuing to do it you are simply being self indulgent.

EDITED TO ADD: While my commentary about the drummers was snarky, check out the ideas expressed by BathroomGirl which are brilliantly constructive.

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[-] 2 points by jjsambista (15) 3 years ago

As a community percussionist for the last 17 years, who has played with groups in 3 continents , including on the streets of NYC...

... I would just like to tell you how wrong you are. In fact, I am sure you are a Tea-Party mole, because anyone who thinks that drums alone make a movement... has not really understood the revolution that is carnaval .

Serious, get a clue. And also... "without drums there is no spirit" .... misses the important point that spirit is spontaneous, whereas never stopping playing is not spontaneous.

[-] 2 points by Thomas312 (9) 3 years ago

this is such bs:Without DRUMS there is no SPIRIT only MATERIAL. MATERIAL = WEALTh which is what we are all fighting. If I can touch the drum, carry the drum and beat the drum and especially if you have to pay 5000 $ for a drumkit and having your own collections it's very material. OWs does exist without drums, it's about the message what message does a drumbeat have? How about some compassion for the people having to listen to drumbeats nonstop? Nonstop loud beating annoying sounds are techniques used in Guantanamo to terrorise prisoners, how can you defend that? Your post is very selfish and egocentric, to claim you're the center of the movement by doing something utterly antisocial is creepy. All that was asked was to drum for only two hours a day, but I guess there's no point in reasonably asking people like you anything. So people should be driven off the square, the GA's authority should collapse and a rift should be created in the movement because of a crappy heartbeat metaphore? You are silencing the movement with noise and using the benevolence and kindness of the GA against it. If some Wall Street guy came up with this, it's a brilliant idea. Catch 22 either let the extremists from lala land ruin it all or use somekind of coersion that will be filmed and shown around the world to prove the movement is divided and falling apart. Just so you can tap your little toy. The movement isn't a body, it's a movement, jeezes.

[-] 1 points by Teachtothink (2) from St Louis, MO 3 years ago

Please! You are not offering peace with the drums. You are silencing the voices and you are causing those who might otherwise listen to turn away. I am so concerned. This is looking like you are on the senate floor not allowing anyone to speak.

What evidence have you that your not drumming will silence the movement? Back up your claim with evidence. Where has this happened in history?

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

Has it occurred to anybody that opponents of the occupation could infiltrate the movement and start committing code violations that could give the city justification for evicting everybody from Zuccotti Park? If somebody were to try to do something like that, then their operatives would probably sound a lot like this PeaceStix guy when they rationalized their actions. They wouldn't admit that their purpose was to be divisive and to irritate the park's neighbors and to provide the city with leverage against the occupation. They would talk about DRUMMING being NECESSARY. (Necessary to get the protest evicted.)

[-] 0 points by AnimalFarm (31) 3 years ago

start committing code violations? The continued actions of the occupation is that from the get go. They don't need the drummers for that.

[-] 1 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

Um. OK.

[-] 0 points by AnimalFarm (31) 3 years ago

Viva la revolucion, and the drummers!

[-] -1 points by jlivermore (8) 3 years ago

Does this include playing drums?

[-] 1 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

Um it is specifically about playing the drums.

[-] -2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

Anti-establishment attention-seeking protesters are upset about a faction of anti-establishment attention-seekers within them? Does anybody see the irony in how you can swap "drummers" for "protesters" in this quote and it still makes sense?

Here's a hint to the drummers: if you're doing something you think is helpful to those around you, and they repeatedly ask you to please stop doing that thing, chances are its not really helpful at all, and in continuing to do it you are simply being self indulgent.

[-] -1 points by AnimalFarm (31) 3 years ago

Yup. In fact, furthermore, the irony is also contained in the actual article all these comments are for. For instance, do it in the first paragraph in the article. The pot calling the kettle black. They can't have it both ways. Anyway, the drummers situation is to me just a prelude to the showdown that's going to happen over the money and supplies that have come in.

[-] 0 points by agnosticnixie (17) from Laval, QC 3 years ago

Silly question, given your tone and use of nick: you do realize what Animal Farm stood for, right.

[-] -1 points by AnimalFarm (31) 3 years ago

The real question is does OWS know?

[-] 0 points by agnosticnixie (17) from Laval, QC 3 years ago

Yes, I know. Tell me, have you read hommage to Catalonia?

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

I'm dying to know what you thought the point of Animal Farm was? I personally think that we're going to see a Pigs v Hens scenario with the drummers and the GA.

[-] 0 points by agnosticnixie (17) from Laval, QC 3 years ago

Tell me what you think it was and I'll see if I misunderstood.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

"All animals are equal." (But some are more equal than others.)

[-] 1 points by davidj (2) from East London, EC 3 years ago

Thats exactly why the movement has no leaders duhh

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

Then how is the movement going to control the drummers?

[-] 1 points by BNB (89) 3 years ago

The answer is one most disagree with and most don't want to hear. You don't control them.

[-] -1 points by lentri21 (14) 3 years ago

If the movement has not leaders, then who deleted all of my comments off of the website today and deleted my login ID out of existence?

I love substituting the word "protester" for "drummer"! I guess the protesters issued a PERMIT to the drummers, and the drummers have ignored the permit. And now the protesters are upset about it.

Here's another hypocrisy. I see myself as an occupier of this website (and maybe a few others). When #OWS didn't like my speech, they sent in the admins/moderators (police) to come and drag me off, throw away my goofy signs (my comments), and take down my tent (delete my login ID).

#OWS get over yourselves...this is human nature. Our society works the way any free society works, and it is also the way YOU work!

[-] 1 points by BNB (89) 3 years ago

Brings up a valid point.

The OWS thing is not anarchistic. Some say anarchy is great--others, like Chris Hedges--speak of it negatively. Perhaps in some cases it's semantics. Personally, I like anarchy, though I confess to it being nearly impossible to live anarchically.

The word revolution is being thrown around by some at Zucotti, but I find the word to have negative conotations. All revolutions do is change the hands the power is in. Check and see how the past revolutions panned out.

I have seen a lot of good things with this group, but if the security team gets a bit more forceful, if the paperwork to get funds gets a little more complicated, if the mediators start deleting comments, telling people they can come to Zuccotti, or they are not welcome---it's on it's way to being another political party--another police force, another problem.

[-] 0 points by agnosticnixie (17) from Laval, QC 3 years ago

Yeah, it's a reading I guess; right now the issue with the drummers is that they're taking all the space, we've have to move most committee meetings out of the park because of the constant noise, and the constant drumming goes against the good neighbor policy we voted on in week 1 already.

The drummers accepted to have a more limited drumming schedule, with 2 2-hour drum circles at noon and 4, proposals they advanced to the GA themselves yesterday.

Also I was mostly wondering whether it was silly red baiting, as too many people read animal farm and forget that Orwell was a communist, his opposition was mainly to stalinism (and I figure other totalitarian offshoots like maoism but he died too early).

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

The people noisily congregating in Zuccotti Park with the aim of creating a disturbance for the establishment are now upset about the noisy people congregating in their midst who are disturbing the disturbance's establishment.

And now, although all voices are equal, some voices who are more equal than others, due to the workings of the General Assembly, are trying to regulate other voices.

And you're asking why people are bringing up Animal Farm?

[-] 0 points by agnosticnixie (17) from Laval, QC 3 years ago

The drummers regulated themselves and it's not a matter of being more equal than others: the GA is not a leadership clique, it's fucking everyone in Zuccotti.

[-] 0 points by AnimalFarm (31) 3 years ago

Nope, not silly red baiting, my position is that there is enough of that already in the whole nature of the moment. But with that in mind, and also whether or not he drummers may or may not have regulated themselves, it still means everybody is missing some vital point about human nature. And so as noble as the leaderless goal is, it ain't so. Try as hard as you might, and probably you should, but it just ain't so. My problem is the pretending. Be honest about it (not you, but the movement), acknowledge the circularities, the subcultures, and such, including tha there may be inequalities fortunate or not, and you'll be pretty far along in my book, warts and all (and what doesn't have warts?).

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[+] -8 points by Eh2Zed (29) 3 years ago

Here's a hint: if you're doing something you think is helpful to those around you, and they repeatedly ask you to please stop doing that thing, chances are its not really helpful at all, and in continuing to do it you are simply being self indulgent.

If you really belive this, then GO HOME. You are annoying the hell out of the people who live there, and you have pissed them off enough. You keep their small children up at night, ruin their sleep, and you think you are helping them. Your NOT. So now, stop being so "self indulgent" and GO HOME.

[-] -2 points by AnimalFarm (31) 3 years ago

Yup, there is a definitely circularity here. OWS want to complain about the drummers, but refuses to see they are doing the same thing in their own ways.

[-] 2 points by Jbear (60) from Greenfield, MA 3 years ago

Not exactly, OWS is trying hard to maintain good relations with the neighbors. They are occupying the park not as an inconvenience or disturbance, but as a way to give their opponents no way to ignore them anymore. The drummers are not trying to get any particular message across, and refuse to do anything to keep a good relationship with either the Manhattan neighbors, or their protester neighbors.

[-] -1 points by AnimalFarm (31) 3 years ago

That's odd. I don't try hard to maintain good relations with my neighbors because if I had to it probably means I'm doing something wrong, otherwise it just comes naturally.

Not exactly?? Ok, yeah, right.

So, that make you right and them wrong. Got it. Very logical.

[-] 1 points by Brugmansia (1) 3 years ago

It does not always come naturally! Sometimes it takes work, being flexable, and compromise. No one is wrong and bad if this is so.

[-] -1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

Very true. And I like your nickname. It's also very true.

[+] -4 points by sdcheung (76) 3 years ago

Yes go back home to your Fly-Over State Hovel, Real new Yorkers don't want your Transplanted ass here in the city.

[-] 3 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

The other day I had a scuffle with one of your tribe about my post name. I told him that it wasn't to imply that people unsympathetic to OWS aren't real new yorkers, but to disprove the totally false assumption that no one from the city supports the movement. We do, lots and lots of us. Lots. We outnumber people who don't support it according to recent polls.

But, on the subject, if no one likes the drummers but the drummers, I'm kind of in agreement with the people who think they should keep it to a minimum. There's all the difference in the world between freedom of speech and freedom of noise.

[-] -1 points by sdcheung (76) 3 years ago

I don't like the drummers either. I just don't like Transplants who only came what 10-11-12 years ago telling us what to do.

[-] 2 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

Yeah, well, keep in mind that these people are directing their action against Wall Street, and the VAST majority of people who work on Wall Street are also transplants.

[-] 1 points by Agricola (2) from Queens, NY 3 years ago

The vast majority of people who work on Wall Street are low level clerks and secretaries, cleaners and security guards, bank tellers and IT staff, and transportation, food, retail, and other service employees who are there because the banks and brokerage houses are there. What, you think that every Master of the Universe type in a custom-made suit answers his own phone, opens his own mail, cooks his own lunch, fixes his own computer, and makes his own coffee? Those low-level workers are from Flatbush, and Whitestone, and Castleton, and Parkchester, and those parts of Manhattan above 96th Street that the transplants seem never to have heard of.

Did it ever occur to you that the financial industry in Manhattan -- that is, "Wall Street" -- provides livelihood to a lot more people than just the 1%, and if you make that go away a whole lot of New Yorkers in the 99% will be without jobs?

Noble and well-intentioned ignorance is still ignorance.

[-] 1 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

I wouldn't call the wages of a low-level employee, which require that they commute sometimes well over an hour and often live in shoddy neighborhoods with high crime rates, a "livelihood." And it's a specious argument to say that because the service employees of large firms will lose those jobs, they'll automatically lose out on a job altogether. It's the financialization of the American economy that has led to the enormous expansion of low-wage, no benefit service jobs. Maybe a better organized economy will improve their lot. From what I gather, most of what people at OWS are protesting the fact that low-level workers are taken advantage of, and given far less than the companies they work for could afford to give, just because they have no real social power. So give me a break on the whole "ignorance" thing - no one said that the "Master of the Universe" types didn't have any help. We said they aren't acknowledging the humanity of the people who support them.

[-] 1 points by Turtle (268) 3 years ago

Touche'

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[-] 0 points by GoHomePest (5) 3 years ago

AMEN

[-] 15 points by BathroomGirl (25) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Admire the drummers for their passion. Have an idea: Wondering if the drumming circle just needs to expand all around the city instead of keeping all that passion bottled up in one park. What if the drumming starts at noon at Liberty Park and continues uptown hitting all the parks along the way, washington, tompkins, grammercy, central park at 59th, etc, and ends the day back at Liberty park at 6? Could be a great way to share the passion of the movement and remind people all over the city that exciting things are happening everyday downtown for the 99%. The bigger drumming circle doesn't even have to involve marching, it can be done like a relay race with drummers starting and stopping at agreed upon times and locations. It could create the effect of an echo that spreads around the city, slowly throughout the day. A bigger drumming circle, as described here, is an extension of the human microphone. A bigger drumming circle, as described here is a way to show that nothing can quiet the passion of the movement, especially not internal disagreements. A bigger drumming circle, as described here can be a powerful and harmonious symbol that the people's movement will always grow, it will always have a heartbeat, it will always have a pulse. The 99% should never be silenced, we should instead find the best and most creative ways to amplify our voice. It would be a shame to allow the 1% to use “Quality of Life” arguments to fracture this movement and dictate how and when the people should be permitted to participate in the revolutionary tradition of drumming. Peace and love to all!

[-] 5 points by Jbear (60) from Greenfield, MA 3 years ago

Drums are great to have on marches, honestly, I don't know what we would do on the marches with out them. But at the park they need to be respectful of the folks living there full time who need a little more quiet every now and then.

[-] 5 points by DavidA (27) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

Great idea! Drums... everywhere! Drummer groups all along Bway, sending the occupy message up and down the island. And over the bridge to us in Brooklyn. Drums everywhere! Just not all the time.

[-] 3 points by tallboytooshort (18) 3 years ago

thank you for providing constructive advice

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (22406) 3 years ago

Agreed. Great idea. I just loved the drummers when I visited Zuccotti Park. Maybe it's too much in a concentrated area but keep them drumming all over the place. I love it!

[-] 4 points by gul (15) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

This is a good idea. It allows the drummers to drum all day as they wish, and gives the people at the park some space to think. It also brings the movement to more people and other parts of the city - the drumming is really good and reflects well on the movement - but at this point, confined to Liberty, is a little too much of a good thing.

[-] 4 points by BathroomGirl (25) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Thanks! I saw a passionate debate about the drumming last week at a General Assembly and I felt so much love for everyone involved. Want the world to see and hear how passionate, creative, beautiful and strong this movement is!

[-] 3 points by acarefreeman (27) 3 years ago

The troubling problem now has the prospect of being solved with BathroomGirl's smart idea; next, you had better convey your idea successfully to the drummers, Bathroomgirl:-) ~acarefreeman

[-] 2 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

I (heart) bathroomgirl!

[-] 1 points by GoHomePest (5) 3 years ago

It is the "fairy dust movement" LOL

[-] 3 points by Lindaxnyc (7) 3 years ago

I love this!! But I do not think it is only the 1% who are playing the “Quality of Life” card. Many of us fully understand that to have drumming going on all day outside your window or where you can hear it is enough to drive anyone mad.

[-] 3 points by dcranmer (7) 3 years ago

I think it's an awesome idea that includes the wishes of both sides & lends itself to the greater movement- nice going bathroom girl! It's marketing, pleasing to all involved in the dialogue & just brilliant!

[-] 3 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

You know what the more I think about this the more I realize this idea is genius.

Drumming draws attention and a crowd. It is a very useful thing used the right way. Sending these drummers out on "sorties" throughout the city to get out the message beyond the square would be incredible. Think of the ground that could be covered. And the drummers could drum and drum, in various locations, and others could accompany, helping to spread the word.

It could really turn this situation into a big win-win for everyone and show the doubters and mockers a thing or two about how resilient this movement really is.

[-] 3 points by Zvillemom (2) from Zionsville, IN 3 years ago

It could be a drumming flash mob popping up to protest all over.

[-] 0 points by GoHomePest (5) 3 years ago

Didn't your parents if you had any, teach you manners?

[-] 2 points by snow (7) from Cortlandt Manor, NY 3 years ago

Very good idea.

[-] 2 points by jjsambista (15) 3 years ago

BathroomGirl, this is a great Idea. Also because The Drummers real strength is in what is known as "Rough Music" (look it up on wikipedia, it really exists).

What rhythyms are being played? I am thinking that this idea, for the mobile drumming unit, then it would be very cool to play batucada, the solid and fast afro-brazilian beat behind carnaval samba.

This music is often quite challenging to play... whereas, as I understand it, if people are going 10 hours straight, then the rythms are probably as free form as possible. All good, but never underestimate the power of real order in music (especially percussion) to turn heads and wake up bankers.

I hope your idea of the daily Manhattan Pitstop Drum Adventure takes form and goes ahead!

[-] 2 points by nicky2 (46) 3 years ago

i love this idea

[-] 2 points by planetlove (31) 3 years ago

Great idea - channel the energy, marching band or at staged locations. People are attracted to the music and if paired with key messages/signs could be a multiplier!

[-] 2 points by Alice (46) from Staten Island, NY 3 years ago

Yeah, Hungry March Band would probably be for-hire. They're quite free lance, you know.

[-] 1 points by MontanaOne (4) from Great Falls, Mt 3 years ago

Such a great idea. I hope it takes hold.

[-] 1 points by seanbateman9 (2) 3 years ago

Id vote for this - and I agree the drummer cant be drumming all the time but like I said about I go for the drummers esp and to meditate to the drumming - SB

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

Does Occupy Wall Street stand for irritating people during the day and keeping people awake at night? Or does it stand for something else that some people might actually support?

[-] 1 points by jjsambista (15) 3 years ago

PS: also agree with other remarks about other music...

Drumming can be very oppressive to unamplified strings or voices.

[-] 1 points by GoHomePest (5) 3 years ago

You are NOT the 99%...you are nothing as long as you disrespect others around you.

[-] 1 points by BraveUSA (6) 3 years ago

You said it best GoHomePEST,"You are NOT the 99%...you are nothing as long as you disrespect others around you."

[-] 11 points by danielOWS (32) 3 years ago

i'm happy that mediation is ongoing, and hopeful that this works out. I would like to make a few points.

  • I think drumming is overbearing and dominating of the very small space that we all share
  • the booming drum circle excludes or makes difficult the ability for unstrained conversation, teachins, trainings, debates, and importantly other music.
  • It might be nice for people who visit for a few hours, but when you are there, working, organizing long days and nights, and have to strain against the sound of the drums, its different.

Too me this is like having the person with the most booming voice in the room demand that you listen to him all the time just because they have the louder voice. Liberty Square is a small space - drumming when its happening dominate that space. I think the loudest person in the room, the strongest person in the room should not be allowed to dominate those with a smaller voice! What do we do as a community when this happens, and when all reasonable attempts at resolution fail?

Today organizers of acitons from tahir square were in at liberty square and we could barely hear them. Why? Because drummers drummed. Unacceptable. Unbelievable.

[-] 3 points by frangible (67) from Albuquerque, NM 3 years ago

I also agree. Discussion of the issues surround the excesses of the neoliberal regime and possible solutions is much more important than drumming.

[-] 2 points by tallboytooshort (18) 3 years ago

agreed

[-] 11 points by pissedoffconstructionworker (602) 3 years ago

The drummers can all fuck right off, as far as I'm concerned. They're immature, self-centered, and attention-seeking.

The night they drummed while a thousand people tried to hold a GA was the final straw.

[-] 5 points by tallboytooshort (18) 3 years ago

the drummers, bless their hearts, need to realize that we have formed a democracy and it is not anarchy down there. Unfortunately (or fortunately as the case may be), you can't do whatever you want in a democracy. We collectively agree upon a code of conduct. While we embrace "a diversity of tactics" there are certain behaviors that should not be tolerated within the camp. Drugs and alcohol and recently excessive panhandling are serious issues, but nothing is remotely as threatening to our fragile nursery community than the incessant drumming. My opinion is that if the people drumming cannot understand this, then they are not so much a part of OWS community that has formed around the GA and the political discourse, but a seperate group of people who happen to be occupying the same park for the purpose of playing drums. Unfortunately we have been too nice to the drummers and have not held them accountable to the agreement we made with the community board. If the drummers are actually part of the OWS movement and respect the GA, they would have had a million oportunities to hash out an agreement with the CB and the GA. However, from what I have noticed, most attempts to incorportate them into the dialog have been unsuccesful. I think we should hold them to two hours a day, no more (and no less?) until the situation has calmed down a bit and then a new conversation can happen.

[-] 2 points by jbell78 (152) 3 years ago

And who, exactly, will enforce that?

[-] 1 points by GoHomePest (5) 3 years ago

By now most people know who you are and what you are...your message is failing

[-] 1 points by sfsteve (151) 3 years ago

I am sure the cops would be happy to enforce it. If they don't obey the very rules they agreed to, turn them in. Warn them first, to give them a chance to comply, but if they don't let them know you're serious. The movement must have some order and must be respectful to the neighbors and the fellow participants. Don't get me wrong, I love me some drumming, but incessant drumming is simply selfish egotism.

[-] 1 points by MickySlick (2) 3 years ago

That's like sending the horse to the glue factory.

[-] 0 points by jbell78 (152) 3 years ago

So let me make sure I'm getting this right...OWS will ask the NYPD for help to enforce their General Assembly decision to allow for 2-4 hours of drumming a day?

[-] 3 points by impolex (5) from Yonkers, NY 3 years ago

This should not be a matter of enforcement. This should be a matter of respect. We need to respect the drummers and their right to be drumming but they need to respect those who are sick, tired, or just in general need to rest. But please please please. Don't think of enforcement. Don't do that.

[-] 2 points by Kaydreein (13) 3 years ago

There is no such thing as a right to drum.

[-] 2 points by jbell78 (152) 3 years ago

OK. So then what do you do if the drummers won't stop?

[-] 2 points by timbertrance (2) 3 years ago

If the drummers do not abide by the agreement they made with everyone else they should be considered provocateurs and dealt with accordingly, with courteous resolve.

[-] 1 points by jbell78 (152) 3 years ago

and what does that mean exactly? is there a police force who will forcibly stop them or not?

[-] 1 points by StevenRoyal (490) from Dania Beach, FL 3 years ago

No. You and this guy will enforce the rules that were arrived on by consensus. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6FUR_nhGX8&feature=youtu.be

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

"Courteous resolve" was a funny phrase. If the GA doesn't develop a law enforcement branch, then this is just a microcosm of what will come next. If the GA is totally toothless then they'll also be totally ineffective.

What that means in concrete terms is that they'll lose control of the park.

[-] 1 points by drron (4) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

To gain respect, one has to offer respect. I am still reading, but I don't see any reports of a drummer offering respect. I see some "liberals" saying nice things about the drumming. I'd like to see some concrete suggestions. The drummers are an extreme example of a problem we must deal with, that will rear its ugly head in other forms. Decentralized leaderless movements need to understand how to deal with trolls and poisonous people. That includes looking into ourselves and understanding when we each may be manifesting poisonous tendencies. None of us are immune and we need to be talking with each other about we we all can improve. Here is a workshop we did the other night: http://www.nycga.net/2011/10/24/are-poisonous-drummers-endangering-occupywallstreet-movement/

[-] 1 points by StevenRoyal (490) from Dania Beach, FL 3 years ago

Why not. We love the police. The police and the occupation are one.

[-] 0 points by sfsteve (151) 3 years ago

Why not? It would go along way to improving the image of the movement in the community and among the cops.

[-] 2 points by impolex (5) from Yonkers, NY 3 years ago

The discussion needs to continue between the two groups. My main request to the drummers that they use courteousness and relies that at times their drumming effects other negatively and that, at times, their demands to keep drumming are arrogant. Drummers are humans just like all of us. Trust me. They know what compassion and courteousness is. We just need to frame our argument as such. Right now we are becoming another thing for them to fight against and we don't want to become that.

[-] 4 points by tallboytooshort (18) 3 years ago

I think its pretty clear that there are 2 options.

a.) the police will enforce an eviction of the entire park with the blessing of the community board and the mayor and we will not be let back in with sleeping gear. This effectively ends OWS for now. This scenario is really bad for everyone (except the banks and people who want to sleep and schools that want to have class without drumming going on all day and corporations who yada yada yada)

b.) the drummers realize that their drumming beyond the agreed upon 2 hours a day is a really big threat and then they cooperate with everyone. They have "the right" to drum all they want, but they themselves have made up the 4 hour period outside the GA, OWS in general, and without the blessings of the CB.

c.) there is no option c. To pretend that the drummers don't know well what they are doing is just plain stupid. I personally do not care if they think they have a right to do whatever they want at the expense of a very important movement. There are lots of "rights" they have, but it doesn't make the exploits of them "right" (zing). Our best and only option is to persuade the drummers that option b is in everyones best interest.

We do not enforce rules on each other nor should we feel compelled to involve the police. These are proving to be major flaws in our strategy as it opens the option for a group of 10 or so people to derail the entire thing because they have "the right" to drum. People deciding to partake in other behaviors, while not as flagrant as the drumming, are also jeapordizing the message of the movement. I commend mediation and security for their efforts, but we need a better mechanism to moderate our collective behavior and image. Again, this is a democracy, not an anarchy. Even a true anarachist would recognize the important of maintaining our collective. If you are drumming outside of the times we agreed upon, you aren't an anarchist, you're just an asshole.

I'm all about creating an autmosphere of inclusion to a point, but if some of the people we are including are willing to end our occupation we should discuss the option of not including them in this movement....I'm sorry, but its not like this is the first time we have deliberated this. This issue is several weeks old now and I'm tired of the constant threat of 10 people's selfish needs fucking everything up. While I'm not exactly proposing a concrete strategy for doing this, I think we need to deliberate on whether or not we think excluding certain elements from the movement is acceptable.

As a musician and a fan of drumming and jam sessions in general, this is the most painful thing I have ever written

[-] 2 points by derek (302) 3 years ago

To answer the question implicit in your pain, here is why the drummers need to show some respect, while they too need to be respected, from Manuel De Landa: http://www.t0.or.at/delanda/meshwork.htm "To make things worse, the solution to this is not simply to begin adding meshwork components to the mix. Indeed, one must resist the temptation to make hierarchies into villains and meshworks into heroes, not only because, as I said, they are constantly turning into one another, but because in real life we find only mixtures and hybrids, and the properties of these cannot be established through theory alone but demand concrete experimentation. Certain standardizations, say, of electric outlet designs or of data-structures traveling through the Internet, may actually turn out to promote heterogenization at another level, in terms of the appliances that may be designed around the standard outlet, or of the services that a common data-structure may make possible. On the other hand, the mere presence of increased heterogeneity is no guarantee that a better state for society has been achieved. After all, the territory occupied by former Yugoslavia is more heterogeneous now than it was ten years ago, but the lack of uniformity at one level simply hides an increase of homogeneity at the level of the warring ethnic communities. But even if we managed to promote not only heterogeneity, but diversity articulated into a meshwork, that still would not be a perfect solution. After all, meshworks grow by drift and they may drift to places where we do not want to go. The goal-directedness of hierarchies is the kind of property that we may desire to keep at least for certain institutions. Hence, demonizing centralization and glorifying decentralization as the solution to all our problems would be wrong. An open and experimental attitude towards the question of different hybrids and mixtures is what the complexity of reality itself seems to call for. To paraphrase Deleuze and Guattari, never believe that a meshwork will suffice to save us."

Also, maybe there are certain types of drums that are not quite so loud they could use during some times of the day? Or maybe they could use electronic drums during some quiet times to put out an internet feed that people could listen to on the network if anyone wanted during times like the General Assembly? It's not the really the drumming but the sound propagation that is the issue...

[-] 1 points by sfsteve (151) 3 years ago

I totally agree. However, I don't think the cops will break it up solely because of drumming. But the drumming can turn of prospective participants, enrage neighbors who the complain to the press, and just generally weaken the movement overall. They got to know this and they got to know that it it not acceptable to the vast majority.

Isn't there was an option in GA where a participant can block a proposal. From what I understand this means that their objections are so great that to go on would be a deal breaker and they would walk. I would think most drummers would not consider a limit on drumming a deal breaker and would not block. But maybe the assholes will. And maybe that would not be such a bad thing.

[-] 0 points by timbertrance (2) 3 years ago

Perhaps there is a plan C. If the Whole of #ows has reached a consensus about drumming policy were to pack up and occupy the farthest part of the park from the circle, leaving the intransigent drummers behind to fend for themselves,perhaps they could finally utilize their left brains and come to their senses and realize we all need each other to be loving and respectful to each other, otherwise those who don't, will be considered provocateurs and not be aloud to reparticipate.

[-] 1 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

Um have you actually visited the park, or even looked at it on a map? This is not exactly a sprawling open space.

[-] -1 points by Kaydreein (13) 3 years ago

Pretend like you're really, REALLY sick and go over near them while coughing and sneezing. (not ON them, but very near to them.) Bonus points if you can find someone with a specific benign allergy - LIKE ME - and send them over there in a sneezing, sniffling, runny nosed fit.

[-] -1 points by impolex (5) from Yonkers, NY 3 years ago

just informed by my more grammar minded roommate that courteousness is not exactly a word and that I mean courtesy.

[-] 1 points by derek (302) 3 years ago

"Diversity of tactics" up to a point: http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/change/science_nonviolence.html "This commitment should include the principles put forth by advocates of strategic nonviolence for dealing with pro-violence groups. Nonviolent groups should distance themselves from violent groups and strongly condemn their philosophies and actions. Only groups that specifically state that they are completely committed to strategic nonviolence should be allowed to be co-sponsors of marches and participate in their planning. The thought of openly criticizing and then excluding some activists will make most leftists cringe, not only because their basic values are inclusionary, but because such a step would call to mind past battles over excluding Communists. Those who are excluded will say that the nonviolent activists are the equivalent of "red baiters." They will say that the nonviolent activists have violated their inclusionary principles, and are therefore hypocrites. They will say that those who would exclude them are only reformers and liberals. Most leftists thus prefer to deal with those who favor property damage or armed struggle by ignoring them or making deals with them within the privacy of the movement. That's what the nonviolent activists tried at Seattle. That's what the compromise called "diversity of tactics" is all about. But it won't work. At the same time, it is likely that most future activists would accept strategic nonviolence as their only option if they were socialized into a movement that truly believed in and understand this commitment."

See also on how all real living systems live at the interface between fire (excessive chaos) and ice (excessive order): http://www.t0.or.at/delanda/meshwork.htm

[-] 1 points by metapolitik (1110) 3 years ago

They probably get free weed and Phish tickets from Goldman Sachs in exchange for being as disruptive as possible.

[-] 0 points by pissedoffconstructionworker (602) 3 years ago

You aint the only one who had that notion.

[-] 0 points by metapolitik (1110) 3 years ago

I sure hope not.

[-] 1 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

Exactly. Maybe they were "setting the pulse of the movement" at one time but they really need to open up their ears.

[-] 0 points by jamesvapor (221) 3 years ago

that's pretty much what it takes to be a drummer. big head , beat off all day. rhythm optional

[-] 11 points by Mackerel (11) 3 years ago

I love OWS and am so proud of everyone downtown and across the country who is taking part. I say that so you understand that I am 100% on your side, OWS. But this drumming issue is, in a tiny way, making OWS look silly. I'm psyched to see a dialog brewing about it and that the situation is being dealt with fairly but the fact that it's even happening is crazy. NYC is a loud loud place. Silence, when you can get it, is so important. For your neighbors but also for the more quiet among the OWS crowd who want to speak. A couple of hours, fine. To get people psyched for speeches, great. But if you're literally making it hard for people to talk, and pissing off your city neighbors, drummers, you are not interested truly in what's going on. People need to speak. People need space and quiet to think. Stop being stubborn.

[-] 3 points by acarefreeman (27) 3 years ago

The point makes perfect sense. Maybe somebody or some group with social skills can reach out to the drummers to persuade them that it is both to their interest and the interest of others that they play less hours each day. Of course, the durmmers' enthusiasm should be protected and their hard work be respected, but there should also be a balance between what they can and want to do and what people expect of them or can tolerate. This will be one of many situations that OWS need to manage successfully in order for the movment to effectively grow and to go in the right direction. ~acarefreeman

[-] 2 points by Jbear (60) from Greenfield, MA 3 years ago

That's what mediation is trying to do.

[-] 1 points by acarefreeman (27) 3 years ago

Good.

[-] -1 points by GoHomePest (5) 3 years ago

These oucc pest have never known what the word respect means...they are worms

[-] 1 points by annie (132) from San Diego, CA 3 years ago

another way to protest daily....check it out please. This has just begun, we are on day 6. spread the word! http://www.facebook.com/pages/Occupy-Daily-Boycott/235005926555257

[-] -3 points by saneguy (4) 3 years ago

The antisemitism, racism, defecating on cop cars, trashing the park, and Marxism doesn't make us look silly, it's the drumming.

[-] 2 points by Turtle (268) 3 years ago

Might I recommend some more-balanced news accounts that don't take anecdotes (sometimes false anecdotes) and turn them into statements about a non-existent majority?

I looked and found some, and I'm currently 4,900 miles away, though that will be changing very shortly.

Meanwhile, as an 'outsider,' I agree; living in tight quarters means that each person must consider balancing the boundaries between their rights to live as they choose, and the rights of those near them. Otherwise serenity and peace are disrupted, and conflict ensues where anti-conflicrt was sought. Self-defeating ends result.

Selfishness in society is what's brought us to this point, in some ways. Re-creating it while working to end it seems paradoxical at best.

[-] 5 points by walkmydog (7) 3 years ago

I love ows, I really do! But there comes a time when certain elements will keep me from coming back.......NON STOP DRUMS! My dish washing, my scrubbing crap off a sidewalk, my voice, my body, and my "donations" won't be there again until somebody will get the drummers to exercise respect for others. That's what I thought part of this whole thing was about!!! But, if they insist on driving people away; I smell "agent provocateur", again, here only to spoil the goodness!

[-] 5 points by gul (15) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

The drummers just need to think about what their "pulse" means to the whole movement. They have to make the decision: Will they be comfortable to be the reason the movement gets cleared out of the park? If the cops clear out OWS, they will clear out the GA, the drumming, the movement, everything.

This movement is about a lot of things - it's about taking on Wall Street, it's about taking on the people who kicked people out of their homes, it's about justice, it's about beating the cops, it's about a better future. This movement sure as hell isn't about free pizza and drumming and more free pizza, which is what some people seem to think it is about.

Painful as it might be to do - if it comes down to the drummers go or the whole movement goes, I'm certain the rest of the movement will do whatever it takes to limit the drumming. The movement will be remembered for how it changed our corrupted country, not how it treated a group of drummers whose self-centered actions nearly destroyed it.

[-] 1 points by frangible (67) from Albuquerque, NM 3 years ago

I agree, with one minor edit. "...beating the cops..." to "...recruiting the cops..." They're part of the 99%. We get them on our side, as MM said, "Game over."

[-] 5 points by khewitt333 (35) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

This is an opportunity to develop as a community and grow. I applaud the efforts to mediate. The worst thing that can happen to a burgeoning movement is to suffer divisions: focus on what is held in common! It sounds to me as if everyone has had a chance to have a voice and that everyone has compromised. That is what democracy looks like. An idea: what if the drummers move to other parts of the city? They could represent ows in Times Square for a few hours a day, or in Union Square. Why shouldn't the ows presence be seen elsewhere? The drummers can express themselves in many places around NYC ... they could even join forces with drummers in other cities and travel there to get in more drumming if they wish. After all, to confine drumming to one small park seems a bit narrow-minded in a movement that urges us to enjoy our entire world ("occupy everything"). Or to put a twist on the story: dispense with private property and claim the entire city, the state, the east coast, the nation... you get the point. drumming is a wonderful addition, but sometimes it could spread around and drum at other locations so others have quiet time.

[-] 3 points by gul (15) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

This idea has been voiced twice - you were the first it seems. I think it is a really good idea. Take the drumming, which is good, and spread it. This solves the problem of too much for too long in one small location, and brings one of the most artistic, creative, and attractive parts of the movement to other parts of the city.

[-] 4 points by tallboytooshort (18) 3 years ago

I did witness today the 6pm closing of the drumming and a conversation about where drumming should be done....it was deliberated whether or not to have drums on the march, and I was glad to see the drummers not join the march through the neighborhood and talk about going somewhere else to drum. Sorry for all of the negative language drummers, I know there are some of you out there that get it and respect the GA. Thanks

[-] 2 points by khewitt333 (35) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

Thanks :) Is there a particular person I should speak to, present this idea to? Can anyone tell me where to take this idea next? I'll be down at the park Friday night.

[-] 0 points by drron (4) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

I have heard (albeit, second hand) from people who attempted to explain that Battery Park is available to the drummers. People who tried discussing this with the drummers have reported the impossibilities of using words. So maybe people should try non-violent body language to make it clear that drummers who show no respect for others, will get no respect in return. Any ideas?

[-] 5 points by nyangeloxo (52) 3 years ago

dont turn against each other!!!!!! work together <33

[-] 4 points by Flsupport (578) 3 years ago

This is stupid. I cannot believe it is still an issue. I understand that everyone is trying to sort things out through arbitration in an attempt to show people that there is another way to sort things out but at this point, I think you guys are showing people the exact opposite is true. I think you seriously need to re-evaluate some priorities.

[-] 0 points by drron (4) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

This drumming is still an issue because of too many weak kneed "liberals" who think it is OK to tolerate almost anything, especially if they are not the ones personally suffering from it. I have seen examples of this in the "white liberal racism" my daughter faced in high school because she had an Hispanic last name, played basketball and had African-American kids in her inner circle. The white liberal teachers were OK with minority kids cutting class and hanging out in the hallways, because as "white liberal racists" they were too spineless to deal with reality. And, as long as the white kids were in class, they didn't seem to care too much about minority kids getting educated.

I support decentralized bottom up movements, but the only way to stop hierarchical top down oppression is to face "drumming" types of problems head on and deal with them. Otherwise, the man will deal with it for you.

We have real issues to fight for and the right to cause sleep deprivation is not a sustainable movement. Many of us have sacrificed unending hours in recent weeks, working our asses off to build a better future. Should we let spoiled, completely self-centered, non-cooperative drummers destroy the huge potential that stands before us?

[-] 4 points by StreetHeat (3) 3 years ago

Oh dear, the 1 percent has got to love this. Instead of talking about the injustices of wall street and our government, now we're talking about how long protestors can bang on their drums? If the drummers can't see the damage they're causing to the movement with this then they should get lost. They're going to ruin a good thing with their pettiness.

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

Hate to admit it, I think you're right.

[-] 0 points by saneguy (4) 3 years ago

The 53% is LOVING this. Don't get me wrong, I love our system and I love that you kids have the right to protest, but it seems like this is the issue you guys have fought hardest towards. Your message as a group hasn't been really clear, and you haven't fought for specific issues... well besides drumming, which I'm actually quite impressed with how organized you guys are handling it.

[-] 1 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

You kids??? Do you actually realize the cross section of people who are a part of this? Unless that is you grandma, happy 101st bday!

[-] 0 points by Joyce (375) 3 years ago

Lol, the 3 percent loves this.

[Deleted]

[-] 0 points by Joyce (375) 3 years ago

I hope u realize I meant the 3 percent tax bracket. None the less enjoy

[-] 4 points by HitGirl (2263) 3 years ago

Society has rules. I don't think anyone advocates a society without rules. If the drummers don't follow the rules they should be expelled. If you can't quiet a group of drummers how do you expect to tame Wall Street?

[-] 0 points by omniscientfool (84) 3 years ago

How can OWS expel anyone? Don't get me wrong, the drumming gives me migraines, but trying to exclude anyone makes me cringe. Exclusion means 99% becomes 98 then 97 etc. The ows is expressing free speech in a public space and while we "claim" specific area, there is really nothing that would stop anyone or any group coming to the same/close by location and doing/saying what they want. How would the drummers feel if metal heads formed a giant 100 person electric band that blasted on speakers 24-7 and drowned out the drumming? They should think about that and maybe become more sensitive to others

[-] 2 points by Kaydreein (13) 3 years ago

Democracy can only protect a minority when that minority participates in the democracy. The refusal to compromise demonstrates a complete disregard for the democracy that OWS has built. OWS will not expel anyone, the disruptive element will expel itself.

[-] 1 points by nuwanda (1) 3 years ago

Exclusion means 99% becomes 98 then 97 etc.

I hate to point out that 99% is already exclusionary. It excludes the 1%.

[-] 1 points by HitGirl (2263) 3 years ago

The drummers should have the best interest of the movement at heart. If they don't...if their drums mean more to them, they don't belong. What I'm saying is you can't sacrifice the movement for the drummers. There's too much at stake.

[-] 2 points by omniscientfool (84) 3 years ago

From my understanding, and this is coming from someone the drumming has driven away, the drummers feel that drumming, preferably as much and as long as possible is in the best interest of the movement. I don't see it, but if pure "majority rules" is going to be the ows law of the land, might as well pack it up and go home

[-] 1 points by HitGirl (2263) 3 years ago

So what then??? A body of elected representatives?

[-] 0 points by drron (4) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

Would you exclude someone from the park if they were sexually harassing women? I hope everyone commenting here would agree that would not be acceptable. The US used loud music to sleep deprive prisoners in Guantanamo and they claimed that it was not torture. Different people will have different opinions of how many decibels it takes before they would characterize it as torture. Some areas are gray. Every culture has its own norms. What is acceptable in one culture may not be acceptable in another. What is clear is that the drummers have their own culture, which seems to not be shared by 99% of the people that have to hear them.

[-] -1 points by AnimalFarm (31) 3 years ago

This doesn't follow. It society has rules, and rules should be followed, then OWS should not be in Zuccotti.

[-] 4 points by qwertyman (6) 3 years ago

I've been to the park.The Drummers just do whatever they want including Drowning Out The General Assembly!! Anarchy is NOT acceptable. No respect, ZERO. They should be responsible for their own equipment as well !! Dude you left your $5,000 drum unattended in New York City, DUH! If the GA gives money to them they will lose my support.

[-] 1 points by Becka1169 (2) 3 years ago

The night of the removal from Zuccotti Park, four uniformed 9-11 memorial workers were lurking near the piles of our property that the police would not let us get to. When the opportunity arose, the 9-11 memorial workers took some of the drums as well as a couple of other things. Did they give the drums back yet? They are on film walking away with our property, in uniform. This was a clear injustice and illegal act that was allowed by the police and sanitation workers at the scene. Was the 9-11 memorial contacted directly? These four vultures need to be held accountable for preying on the people when they were vulnerable and unable to respond. When one protester followed them and asked for them to return the merchandise, he was cursed at by one of the uniformed memorial workers and prevented from continue to follow them by police. An absolute injustice that must not go unanswered.

[-] 1 points by borkborkbork (4) 3 years ago

Anarchy is NOT acceptable.

Don't let the anarchists hear you say that!

[-] 2 points by Kaydreein (13) 3 years ago

Yeah, we wouldn't want to have a civil discussion about it or anything. It's always better to ridicule and avoid something you don't understand than to make an effort to understand it. You might get cooties or something like Satan germs on you.

[-] 2 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 3 years ago

Sometimes ridicule is a useful and necessary tool.

[-] 0 points by Kaydreein (13) 3 years ago

See anarchy comment that I was replying to.

[-] 0 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 3 years ago

sorry, it showed up as a reply to mine

[-] 0 points by Kaydreein (13) 3 years ago

<3~

[-] 1 points by borkborkbork (4) 3 years ago

Twelve down twinkles for you! New York State Health Code 153.09 covers neither Cooties nor Satan Germs explicitly and such allegations that Occupy Wall Street or its affiliates are aiding, abetting, or otherwise harboring Cooties and/or Satan Germs is strictly prohibited by declaration of the consensus as determined by the GA! Report to the GA immediately for drum confiscation!

[-] 0 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

They have been asked respectfully many times. When you ask somebody to please cool it over and over and over and they flat out ignore you, yeah you start to get ticked off because you are a human being after all.

[-] 1 points by Turtle (268) 3 years ago

An acquaintance once told me that "Anarchy is not life without rules, but, rather, life without rulers."

I consider myself to be what I refer to as a 'socially conscious anarchist.' My rights end where yours begin, and yours end where mine begin; an invisible fence of live-and-let-live that entails mutual respect and mutual boundaries.

Without it, there is one form of potentially negative conflict or another.

[-] 3 points by Batshemesh (3) 3 years ago

I am so grateful there is a respectful process for voicing, negotiating and listening at OWS. As a drum circle facilitator and student of sacred drumming I have felt very disappointed with the drumming of OWS. Drummers need to see themselves as servants of the whole community and its values AMONG other servants of the group. Drumming must be nonviolent. Drummers are not warriors choosing to beat up their drums rather than their enemies. Drumming is about LOVING. The high energy and loudness of drumming in circle must come in its right time. Communities need quiet time to be in the beat of their own work, to study and confront competing beats in the issues, to meditate out of time, to put babies, the ill, the elderly to nap out of time. There is dream time and create time etc. I saw a lot of kit drums in the OWS drum circle and I was disappointed. Not enough of the wisdom of goats and trees in the circle joining with the humble hands of people in touch with their breath and all their feelings. I felt there was addiction and despair at the OWS drum circle. Trees grow slowly, teach quietly and connect in whisper. Goats can have big personalities and be aggressive but know how to transition. We have a long long way to go as a Western community that needs to come to balance and harmony. I felt a lot of violence in the drum circle at OWS. I needed to leave it and sit at the sacred tree next to it. I will say that the passion of the OWS drum circle was palpable and energizing but it will be so much better if it is in connection with the whole. Great news that there is change here. I think the excessive drumming at OWS reveals such a HUNGER for celebration. People want to meet the Spirit. The recent integration of faith and nonfaith communal ceremonies and celebrations at OWS have offered models toward a healthier culture. Batshemesh

[-] 1 points by drron (4) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

I have a friend who teaches Afro-Cuban drumming. He has studied with masters in Cuba for 40 years. The very first thing he teaches the white kids in his classes is to not hit the drums too hard. It is actually pretty amazing to hear the texture of sounds that can be produced without banging on a drum. He explains (to the men) that, like a woman, it is wrong to beat the drum, and you will not get back what you're seeking.

[-] 3 points by RossWolfe (34) 3 years ago

At the risk of sounding authoritarian, fuck the drummers. I'm for people being able to have a fun time and dance and play music if they want. People can't be serious all the time. But still, if there is to be any sort of actual thought or politics that goes on down there, the mindless and incessant pounding of the drums all day has to stop.

The fact that the General Assembly (the closest thing to any sort of legislative body at OWS) has shown such organizational ineptitude that it cannot deal with this situation is an embarrassment. It's making the entire movement look ridiculous.

[-] 1 points by TheFonz (1) 3 years ago

Couldn't agree more. They have made Congress look like a well-oiled machine. The people drumming can go to Sheep Meadow and do their thing. It has nothing to do with an occupation, revolution or empowering people.

[-] 0 points by saneguy (4) 3 years ago

Congress has been around for 235ish years, and most of them currently elected have been doing it for most of their lives... compare that to the unemployed hippie kids living on the streets... yeah, that's going to happen.

[-] 3 points by kniazukian (3) 3 years ago

I love OWS. I applaud and thank each and every one of you. The drums are counterproductive, overwhelming and RETARDED.

[-] 1 points by dancer41 (1) 3 years ago

Retarded? Really? Pleas don't start using words in such an ignorant way? I know some folks with mental retardation and they show far more respect for others than the drummers seem to be showing. Please use words more accurately.

[-] 3 points by omniscientfool (84) 3 years ago

I am in San Francisco, but drumming is a universal issue for all encampments, for me it's personal as I get bad migraines and have found the constant drumming means I have to leave after a short time. I am not the only one, so it is hard to be supportive of the drummers when they are not considerate of those who are they are pushing away from the movement by their "I will drum when and where I want to" attitude

[-] 3 points by Kaydreein (13) 3 years ago

I have Asperger's. Wanna see me freak out? Put me in an environment with a constant and nagging sound I can't control. Voila. Audio claustrophobia! Yeah, I couldn't deal with the drumming for very long either, and would probably make an ass out of myself. Hopefully the issue is resolved when I visit the occupation.

[-] 1 points by derek (302) 3 years ago

From: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp3423632.html&sid=20faf9b01513b5ab6211148365c2f76e#3423632 "I personally have had improvement [related to Asperger's] taking vitamin D, B12, and liquid minerals for the last 3 months. I also eat whole foods, nothing processed, few canned foods, and I am learning to make meals completely from scratch. Many foods have chemicals and hormones in them that negatively affect behavior, health, and mood (especially conventional meat and dairy). I also highly recommend the ELISA food sensitivity test so you can eliminate allergic foods. The biggest change for me has been the total absence of meltdown fits I used to have on an almost daily basis."

Omega 3s also can be useful. Also maybe of interest: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/autism-research-discovery_b_794967.html

Our society has not been designed for the optimum health (mental or physical) of the 99%. http://www.bluezones.com/

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/12/the-science-of-success/7761/

If we get a "basic income" or other substantial scoio-economic changes, maybe more people can reach their full potential whatever their unique strengths and weaknesses relative to different contexts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Good_as_It_Gets

But constant drumming could also drive almost anyone to distraction and collapse or freaking out...

[-] 1 points by derek (302) 3 years ago

BTW, on reducing tension headaches and migraines: http://www.drfuhrman.com/disease/Headaches.aspx

[-] 3 points by JonBonham (5) 3 years ago

How is this post not considered a massive failure? The attention must be put on the criminals who are not being jailed for their dishonest practices! Believe it or not, NY decades ago, actually was a small, vibrant and diverse community on its own. And each sub community was self governed! And if I remember correctly, drum circles were in sheep meadow.

[-] 3 points by BobD (4) from Detroit, MI 3 years ago

Speaking as someone watching this through media sources at this time, I can say the drummers are a destruction you do not want. This portrayal that you're all a bunch of patchouli wearing, bongo drumming hippies is getting legs and the drummers get a lot more mention than the positive, mainstream elements.

[-] 3 points by frank123 (3) 3 years ago

The bohemian banging is not drumming, I would suggest a musical ensamble of multicultural rythms, Native American, African, Gaelic, Oriental, get a composer, read poetry to it, dance. The revolution must evolve into a consuming force that will gather all the energies of the people and drums can sound the cadence.

[-] 1 points by jjsambista (15) 3 years ago

second that... the music of the future needs form and roots and quality.

haven't heard it but suspect that 99% of the circle's playing is out of time and "sleepy"

Do you guys know samba raiz from Brazil? Very cool form of participatory music (everyone sings, lots play), with some great melodies and (of course) a lot of satire. Unfortunately, it's all in portuguese... but I bet that some poets of Liberty plaza have some verses that can be set to music.

Basically, a good "pagode de mesa" (table samba jam session) combines the best of the human-mic, the drum circle, and the "message" (if you have some sharp turns of phrase and a couple of wall street cut downs)... this is a compositional opportunity...

keep up your positive work!

[-] 3 points by RayBeckerman (3) 3 years ago

If they won't honor the decisions of the General Assembly they should be shut down. They are bullies. And in my opinion some of them are govt agents.

[-] 1 points by thebeastchasingitstail (1912) 3 years ago

It seems that way. From what I hear, there are just a couple of drummers who are agitating. Sux.

[-] 3 points by Cluracan (3) 3 years ago

I for one support every aspect of OWS, but the drumming would drive me absolutely apeshit. I think there is a time and place for it, like marches or immediate protests. But, during the day to day operation of Zucotti Park, or any other Occupy site, I think it would hinder clear thought, as well as anger the surrounding neighbors who are needed as allies in order to help maintain the Occupation. Plus, I also think it does detract from the serious nature of what is trying to be accomplished.

[-] 3 points by openthirdeye (7) 3 years ago

I love the drummers down there! You guys are awsome, but we must all respect each other. We must respect the GA's and people who are teaching and working. Here in Providence, RI we could use more drummers for our marches. Everyone must come together, work together to make everyone happy and i think you guys are doing a great job! And to the drummers you guys are great you make the marches epic in so many ways so thanks!

[-] 3 points by rutgers797 (37) from Wall, NJ 3 years ago

Come on people now, smile on your brother, everybody get together, try to love one another right now :-)

[-] 2 points by nyangeloxo (52) 3 years ago

like ! :P

[-] 1 points by Turtle (268) 3 years ago

Jesse??!!

[-] 1 points by yasminec001 (584) 3 years ago

exactly. its about fairness and mutual respect. if everyone gets their time and respected silence, as well as a respected outburst of emotion through song and rhythym, then what more could you want?

Everyone should be happy, coming together, talking their opinions in a mature manner, in order to get a level of equality with everyone else. Everyone has their color, but it wouldn't be a rainbow without that one color.

[-] 2 points by PiedPiper (2) 3 years ago

Finding consensus is about including everyone: it means both parties must consent beforehand they want to listen to each other and reach an agreement.

If there is not consensus enough to engage on inclusive conversation, then it's sectarian authoritarism (even if done by the majority, it's not about number). How do you counter authoritarian sectarism? Co-opt (hack your enemy, break it's armor - the very division "us" and "them" - make their best interests be on your side) or expell the enemy. Either you fight the sectarians, either you seduce them. It's plain obvious.

This can be the "failure" of the movement - or this can be the first of a long road of learning about how to produce consensus. I've been living with a dozen people in a house for 2 years and I know how hard this can be even on such a small scale - but I know also, firsthand, that operating as a consensual group is LEARNABLE. And it MUST be learned, and this very learning is an intervention on the society that surrounds you guys.

The path isn't easy, and conflicts will SURELY emerge. There'll be sectarians, there'll be infiltrated provocateurs, and much more. I hope you guys learn how to counter these dangers fast and survive.

Hint: listen attentively to people who have been on the 2001 protests. They can have useful hints to share, regarding autogestive organization.

Cheers from Brazil.

EDITED TO ADD: check BathroomGirl's comment, here:http://occupywallst.org/article/drumming-and-occupation/#comment-198526. Wonderful suggestion of what I've called "co-optation" or "seduction".

[-] 2 points by chrysalis12481 (6) from Shokan, NY 3 years ago

What is needed is a council drum, which can play the heartbeat continuously in a quiet and soothing manner which is also deeply powerful and invokes the energy of our mother earth in a positive way. Women drummers carry this tradition and can teach this to all. People sign up for a shift and four or more can play at once. We play very soft during discussions and workshops and meld our beat to the rhythm of the other drums when it time for dancing and fun.

[-] 2 points by rottkamp (8) 3 years ago

this is tough because we need a place to discuss but we also need to build up intensity...

drummers should consider playing polyryhthms in keeping with our many-voiced movement.

[-] 1 points by jjsambista (15) 3 years ago

could they do that?

[-] 2 points by quartzhorsehorse (3) 3 years ago

I traveled a long way yesterday to donate my support, clothing and a bit of cash to the OWS movement. I deeply appreciate those that have chosen to stay in NYC for the long haul. I was deeply saddened and dissappointed at the anger and rage that erupted in the late afternoon at the far end of the park. I am aware that the issue of drumming has been a long standing one. I am a drummer myself and know what it is like to have parameters on playng. it stinks! However, the display of rage (yes- rage), profanity, and screaming created quite a scene. Passersby on the street gathered outside the barricades to witness the ugliness of it all. The cops were enjoying it, I can teel you that. Then the crowd got large enough so that the police told people on the sidewalk to "move along".It was reality TV at it's best! What I observed was not consensus, it was not democracy. It was a breakdown in "the process". It was downright bullying. The small group of drummers started pounding away on their instruments so that no one could be heard. It was (in my opinion) a coup. It left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Air your dirty laundry inside- not on the perimeter of the park. That type of scene does not support the cause. Quartzhorse

[-] 1 points by entarage (36) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Hello, and thank you for coming so far to support us! The reason why you saw what you saw, when you saw it, was because the area where they drum is at the perimeter of the park. I have been there off and on for almost 3 weeks now and I've seen people ask the drummers COUNTLESS times to give it a break and am frankly shocked by their rudeness in continuing to drum, as if nothing was ever asked...I guess a blow up was inevitable. most of these drummers are NOT truly part of the OWS movement. they made that very clear when they didn't adhere to the agreement. we MUST have Compassion in our hearts to be successful(which doesn't exclude them, if they are going to be part of OWS) in our mission but this doesn't mean we are willing to be kicked around, either. We have made so many strides since day ONE. You are correct that this is a bad message to send to the world. We will just need to work it out. Nobody said this was going to be easy.

[-] 1 points by StevenRoyal (490) from Dania Beach, FL 3 years ago

Sound like the drummers are a bunch of immature spoiled brats. I can tell you that when the middle class sees a bunch of dirty, self centered neo-hippie drummers, it makes then feel like the movement is not for them.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

Do think that most of the middle class sees a difference between the drummers and the rest of the protesters?

[-] 1 points by StevenRoyal (490) from Dania Beach, FL 3 years ago

Yes. Absolutely. Without a doubt. I have seen with my own eyes the Americans working to change the corrupt system. When people see the drummers, they assume that everyone is like them; nut we are not. The movement is alive and well.

[-] 2 points by KiriofGreenfield (21) 3 years ago

Vary the rhythm and the tradition - hold some drumming workshops using 7/8 beat, or other challenging and fun rhythms - use more than the congo and jembe, what about taiko, tabla, cajon, bodhran, doumbek, tar, tabor.

The wall of sound that bad hippie drum circles employ is only one voice of the drum. You're in NYC, you've gotta have some world class musicians available to offer drumming workshops and to teach the ancient traditions of the drum.

Fine drumming is both soothing and powerful. It reaches deep into the DNA. If after a few solid and really fun drumming workshops you still have a problem (and it should go without saying that the drummer/musicians will care to respect the needs of the GA and the neighbors) then there may be something else going on, a desire for discord. I don't mean to set alarm bells off, but it's a funny thought of an agent unable to disrupt a consensus meeting except thru bad drumming. Tee-hee! Do they send them to school for that? I guess they wouldn't have to - anyone can bang on pots and pans!

[-] 1 points by jjsambista (15) 3 years ago

Absolutely, they need to engage their minds and not just their hands.

www.manhattansamba.org

sambanewyork.com

I also see your point about a desire for discord... yes, there maybe this idea that the protest must remain absolutely indigestible. And maybe they are right.... that is a long discussion.

[-] 2 points by KiriofGreenfield (21) 3 years ago

It's just this, my friends. As a friend of the late activist Judi Bari, I have seen my friends live through Cointelpro. Provocateurs can only amplify discord in the group. That is their job, and basically it is their only tool. It doesn't help to start pointing fingers, because that kind of inflammation is exactly what they want. That's when they move into high gear, deepening divisions. It's the real divisions in the group that they capitalize upon. The only thing to do is to deeply examine yourselves (you who are drummers and you who are annoyed by drummers) and how you are being influenced, and to gently and consistently guide the process energy back to the goal of consensus (like parenting a toddler). The consensus process can be very hard for agents provocateurs to disrupt, but it is a fine line between encompassing discord into the open process and being careful not to point fingers, and being careful not to waste precious organizing energy running in process circles around an issue with less than ultimate value to the overall mission of the generally assembled populace. (Another goal of provocateurs = burnout) Ultimately it doesn't even matter whether or not there are real infiltrators in your midst, (although you can be well assured there are) because it is only each and everyone's own behavior that is the determining factor in the social health of the collective.

So take care, my friends, and remember to be gentle with one another! You are all putting out a LOT of high energy, so tensions can mount. Remember to ground yourselves. And have humor!!!

[-] 2 points by rohjo (92) 3 years ago

Noise pollution, from drumming to rap to rock to folk to opera, is the province of assholes. Do your thing without space-invading. Contribute without co-opting.

Drumming by slaves in the Caribbean was a means of powerful communication--so powerful, it was banned in the states.

Unwanted drumming pushed on your own community is just juvenile bullshit, non-communication, self-righteous arrogance, sad manifestation of hostile socialization, or maybe (gee, could it be?) yet another form of covert disruption.

If you rhythm revolutionaries are so hip, follow that great suggestion to drum around the city and communicate, powerfully, the message of Occupy. Take your Pulse, then take it to the streets and parks. Carry #OWS banners, whatever, uptown and to the boroughs.

I've lived in NYC too long to be as cool as the occupants of Liberty Square in their approach to this. I'd argue, "Don't take too much shit from 'friends and supporters'." Public space ain't public when a few push out the many.

Bless you, Occupiers, for your grand experiment and steadfast occupation.

[-] 2 points by iam99pct (115) 3 years ago

A group of 20 people approaches drummer who is drumming outside of agreed-upon hours. The drummer gets one warning, if he/she persists their drum is taken away for one week. Repeat offenders will be duct taped to the nearest tree for 30 minutes. Anyone sabotaging and willfully ignoring the group process will be presumed to be an agitator.

[-] 1 points by MickySlick (2) 3 years ago

So you're going to steal someone's drum? That makes you no different than the cops.

[-] 1 points by iam99pct (115) 3 years ago

No I'm going to take away someone's drum until they can observe the consensus reached by a democratic group. Don't you remember kindergarten?

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

Fascinating. The fact that duct taping a person to a tree for 30 minutes would technically be illegal doesn't concern you at all? The rules inside of Zuccotti Park are not a superset of the laws in Lower Manhattan? They're actually totally different, and some of the laws in Lower Manhattan don't apply in Zuccotti Park, due to the rulings of the GA? Is that how it works?

[-] 1 points by iam99pct (115) 3 years ago

I don't think we need to worry about interlocking jurisdictions here. Is that really fascinating?

If I keep screaming in your face what will you do?

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

If you were to keep screaming in my face then I would stand there peacefully, silently giggling inside at the unbalanced person in front of me. Just like I do when homeless people do crazy, anti-social things like that. If that person were to actually threaten me then I would call a cop.

The idea that you would refer to "interlocking jurisdictions" is pretty funny. The GA is not a "jurisdiction". The GA doesn't have the option of taking actions that are illegal under real laws, like duct-taping people to trees. In the real world that's "false arrest", and probably also "battery".

[-] 1 points by iam99pct (115) 3 years ago

You seem to be really obsessed with legal terminology and concepts, although I doubt you're a lawyer. I'd encourage you to find out what life is like outside of authoritarian societies.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

If you duct tape somebody to a tree then you're going to get arrested, even if the General Assembly authorizes it. That's the law, sorry. Even the cops who don't see any difference between loud, smelly homeless people and loud, smelly protesters would intervene to stop assault and battery if one of those protesters were to duct tape one of those homeless to a tree, or vice versa.

[-] 1 points by iam99pct (115) 3 years ago

Like I said, if you can imagine yourself outside of your cops n' robbers TV world, you might be able to see things a little differently.

If you repeatedly and blatantly violate the will of whatever group you are a part of, you'll suffer consequences. The group will decide those consequences - but they definitely won't be "silently giggling inside at the unbalanced person". The group will do whatever it take to ensure that you'll be unable to violate their will again.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

The reason that I keep responding to you is that you keep demonstrating the same fundamental delusion, over and over. The General Assembly is not a law-making authority. They don't even represent all of the people in the park, they only represent people on the east side of the park. So if the people on the east side of the park decide to act violently against people on the west side of the park, then from the point of view of law enforcement, that's basically gang warfare. The laws of the city, county, state, and nation do still apply within the east side of Zuccotti Park, no matter what "the will of the group" thinks about it. Zuccotti Park has not seceded from the union, regardless of the delusions of the people there who think that they've created a sovereign utopia.

[-] 1 points by iam99pct (115) 3 years ago

Well I'm trying to get through to you also. You're missing out on a fundamental irony of your legalistic obsession. We are occupying Wall St. because laws are being broken and no one was doing anything about it. The bankers are robbing us blind, and the cops and the government support them fully.

Liberty Plaza is a new beginning, it's democracy in word and in deed. That means that you don't just "run and call the cops" when something goes wrong. The group handles issues as justly and efficiently as it can. There doesn't have to be a law for everything. Rules are based on common sense and mutual respect. Are you starting to understand?

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 3 years ago

I do understand that the people on the east side of Zuccotti Park are under the impression that they have formed a sovereign utopia.

Do you understand that the laws of the city, county, state and nation still apply within that subculture, and that you can't just go around duct-taping homeless people and drummers to trees?

[-] 2 points by Korsen (53) from Fairfield, CT 3 years ago

I'm annoyed that there's a front page post about the situation over drumming in NYC... aren't there more important things to bring up?

Visit themultitude.org if you agree...

[-] 2 points by IndyGuy (81) 3 years ago

Does it REALLY cost $8000 to replace the drums that were damaged?

It sounds like the little drummer boys wanted to make a HUGE profit off of their loss.

Hypocritical for people protesting greed.

You can get a plastic 5 gallon bucket at Home Depot for less than $5. Turn it upside down and you have a drum.

[-] 1 points by Kaydreein (13) 3 years ago

Who the hell brings drums that are worth 8k out to something like OWS, anyway?

[-] 1 points by saneguy (4) 3 years ago

The liberal media is making OWS seem like it's a peaceful movement. LOL! So the fools thought they'd actually be safe and that their stuff would be safe.

[-] 1 points by IndyGuy (81) 3 years ago

I know.

That is what the drum circle people are claiming.

[-] 2 points by Kaydreein (13) 3 years ago

Just when you think that people are ready to shoulder the responsibility of a movement like this... they prove that they're not. I am rather disappointed, and I've been supporting this since it began.

[-] 1 points by IndyGuy (81) 3 years ago

To make matters worse ..... the drum circle has had their own collection buckets for donations.

The others in the park have demanded they turn over most of that money to the "collective stash".

No one knows who controls the "collective stash" and the bank account with all the donations.

[-] 2 points by saneguy (4) 3 years ago

That's a good question. Does 1% of the 99% control the OWS money? So is it down to 98% now? lol

[-] 2 points by brian2011 (5) from San Antonio, TX 3 years ago

I used to attend drum circles and rainbow family gatherings back in the day, and we had the same issues. Look up the Rainbow Gathering info and community guidelines (http://welcomehome.org/rainbow/), as I've noticed that OWS is using the same format for a lot of organizational needs. The only solution that I've seen work is for there to be an area for drumming, a quiet area for meditation & silence, and an area for public discussion. Otherwise, it is like mixing water, oil, and sand- none of them will ever blend together. I'm a drummer, but respect other people's rights. It sounds like these folks are just being ignorant, or are there just to drum, in which case there are established drum circles in many cities specifically for that purpose. The movement is a movement, not a 24 hour drum circle.

[-] 2 points by sherry1020 (3) 3 years ago

Please stay focused on the task at hand! You have soooooooo many counting on you all over the world. This should not be an issue, remember what brought this movement together. Stay on task, and not let this be a distraction. The 99% need you! God Bless

[-] 2 points by badcop (2) 3 years ago

sadly the hard truth of the matter is that many of the drummers are junkies and winos. over emotional individuals who are in the park to party and for the free shit. Wall st has nothing to do with whatever plights they face. they live in the park but they're not there for the ocupation ive watched the ga reps ask the drummers to stop and a few drunken childish old men made sure that wouldnt happen instead there was shoving and yelling the east side west side division that took shape in the park was quite natural and should be a lesson to anyone who thinks if people just stoped being mean bla bla bla.

[-] 2 points by GOD (2) from New York, NY 3 years ago

It's just that drumming all the time, for days, can be really annoying. I suggest to diversify with other kinds of manifestation. Now if you have revolutionary clear demands to be attended by politicians + public banks, we should unite the nation, occupy the nation, drum much more and just stop when the demands are attended. See the example of Chilean students. If you don't harm individuals properties and don't put health at risk, the protest can just grow stronger and stronger and drums won't be the issue.

[-] 2 points by JonBonham (5) 3 years ago

The occupation and its various important messages has been distilled to drummers. Not guitarists, not singers, not pianists, not bassists, not any wind or stringed instrument players and performers. It's drummers who, literally, do not make melody or harmony. It's Ringo Starr demanding the same attention as John Lennon. WIth everything going on, drumming has taken front page to this crisis. This has to be considered a severe disappointment, and an entirely avoidable one at that, on part of ows. I'm proud as an American and born and bred New Yorker of the occupation in its entirety. These are courageous people standing boldly for what is pure, right and just and it's being disrupted by the lack of consideration by noise makers. Without harmony and melody, banging a drum is tribal and is drowning out real conversations.

[-] 1 points by jjsambista (15) 3 years ago

great post. in search of the melodious

[Removed]

[-] 2 points by walkmydog (7) 3 years ago

My comments and legit opinions were deleted!! Censorship!!!!

[Removed]

[-] 2 points by HapteMikael (162) 3 years ago

Oh, we're still talking about drumming? Good prioritizing.

[-] 2 points by popemolluskvi (2) 3 years ago

Drumming while Rome burns.

[-] 2 points by egor (2) 3 years ago

Drummer, Show a little respect. It's not all about you! John San Francisco

[-] 2 points by noname (2) 3 years ago

Drummers don't over do it. Just as space for pause between eg intervals of pounding heartbeat rythms and calm pulse sound of ocean surf on a beach is an important part of a balanced drum song, so too is rest neccessary for the drummer and the dancer. Drums let marches dance ;)

[-] 2 points by qwertyman (6) 3 years ago

I've been to the park.The Drummers just do whatever they want including Drowning Out The General Assembly!! Anarchy is NOT acceptable. No respect, ZERO. They should be responsible for their own equipment as well !! Dude you left your $5,000 drum unattended in New York City, DUH! If the GA gives money to them they will lose my support.

[-] 2 points by 2012isnow (1) 3 years ago

I appreciate hearing how the ripples are being addressed, as we here in Gainesville, FL are experiencing some ripples.

[-] 2 points by nparker (39) 3 years ago

I am a OWS supporter and musician and I believe that the drumming is essential. But if you are drumming for more than 2-4 hrs a day that is a little excessive. We appreciate what you are doing drummers but tone it down a bit. Maybe go get involved in the GA. We really should not be spending valuable time with petty infighting. We are changing the social dynamic of this country if we just stay the course. Thank you all for what you are doing. One love. Viva the revolution!

[-] 2 points by Antiquehippie (6) from Marietta, GA 3 years ago

Essential to what? Their egos? The delegates to the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia circa 1776 seemed to get along just fine without drumming.

I want to see money out of politics. I want to see a reversal of "Citizens United" and the reinstatement of Glass-Steagal. I want to see Cap Gains taxed at the same rate as income from labor. I want to see an end to corporate welfare. I want to see an end to tax loopholes such as "The Double Irish". I want to see young people bypass the existing system and set up their own parallel structures, such as Mutual Health Insurance Societies (TRUE non-profits). I want to see coops making clothing and furniture and producing food and building cars and erecting green homes.

This Rainbow Family drumming stuff is all well and good, but, in my view, just gives the detractors more ammunition for their propaganda (like that pic of some guy in jeans and brown shoes walking on a flag. I'll bet hardly any of you have seen that pic actually looked at that so-called "flag" and figured out that it was a con by the Cons.)

Alienating people has not historically been an effective tactic to get folks on ones side.

It was the sideshows that turned many of the "Silent Majority", who may have sympathized with our goals, or at least some of them, against us. Self-aggrandizing assholes like Abby Hoffman, Tim Leary, Jerry Rubin, Eldridge Cleaver, Bernardine Dohrn, etc. took the Revolution full circle, from Street Theater (read "The Digger Archives", Brothers and Sisters), to mass marches on the Pentagon, to StreetTheater again (throwing dollars from the balcony of the NYSE). READ about what happened, and what they did (I was a bit player, late on stage, nothing more), and learn from it.

The Message will get overshadowed by the Sideshow, if you let it.

[-] 2 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

Totally agree.

[-] 2 points by Turtle (268) 3 years ago

There were fife and drum corps attached to many of the civilian and regular militias, but, again, the whole respect thing is a two-way street.

I can imagine the violation of mutual respect bringing this whole effort a notch lower in many ways. I'd hate to see that happen.

[-] 2 points by 666isMONEY (348) 3 years ago

Not to mention the fact that someone "sabotaged" the drums during a rainstorm and the drummers want $8000 from OWS funds to buy new drums.

The drummers claim to have raised $35,000 for the cause, put into the general fund.

They also say one of the drums was handmade and worth $5000.

[-] 2 points by brian2011 (5) from San Antonio, TX 3 years ago

Here's a hint for the person with the $5000 drum: water and drums don't mix- the rawhide will tighten as it dries and the wood may crack. If they did raise $35,000 specifically for drum replacement, I would love to see some proof of that, as I thought donations to OWS were unrestricted funds and not donor advised, such as when you donate to a non-profit you can select specific programs, or unrestricted. I'll have to just donate food, water, and shelter if this kind of BS and reckless spending is going on. Keep us posted if they get the $5000 for that drum, as that will directly influence my financial support.

[-] 1 points by Becka1169 (2) 3 years ago

The night of the removal from Zuccotti Park, four uniformed 9-11 memorial workers were lurking near the piles of our property that the police would not let us get to. When the opportunity arose, the 9-11 memorial workers took some of the drums as well as a couple of other things. Did they give the drums back yet? They are on film walking away with our property, in uniform. This was a clear injustice and illegal act that was allowed by the police and sanitation workers at the scene. Was the 9-11 memorial contacted directly? These four vultures need to be held accountable for preying on the people when they were vulnerable and unable to respond. When one protester followed them and asked for them to return the merchandise, he was cursed at by one of the uniformed memorial workers and prevented from continue to follow them by police. An absolute injustice that must not go unanswered.

[-] 1 points by Vaxira (1) from Munich, BY 3 years ago

Any proponent of a revolution needs to be acquainted with history of revolutions. Most of the revolutions end up with a big guillotine that decapitates most of its leaders.

French revolution Between 1793 and 1794 around 40,000 people were killed. Two of the initial leaders Georges-Jacques Danton and Maximilien de Robespierre were beheaded through the laws they created. Jean-Paul Marat was murdered.

Russian Revolution of 1917 Most of the revolutionary leaders were murdered as well as 20,000,000 people most of which initially welcomed the revolution

People's Republic of China Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40,000,000

When next time you hear a call for revolution ask the callers if they are ready to be killed by their comrades.

[-] 1 points by bcartermusic (5) 3 years ago

http://occupywallstreetmusic.com/

"Blood Money"

Corporations want to get paid and they dont care who bleeds Thats why my sneakers are made by children over seas And their hourly wage is not enough to eat, but companies get away because no one oversees. man It’s about the G’s, better get em Because I’ve seen the poor get ignored by the system. But in reality I see the poor are the Victims of this cannibal animal called capitalism. Wheres the lack of division between the haves and the have-nots? Chance to advance but they plan so you can not. Get the jail route if you caught with that crack rock get a bail out.... If your crimes are from bad stocks. Cant stop trying to find answers how can they deny coverage when they find cancer. Tax breaks for the rich while the poor trying to buy Pampers. You cant prepare for the life after with your Blood Money.

Wall Street ruins lives for that Blood Money In Iraq soldiers dying for that Blood Money

Politicians committing crimes for that Blood Money Fox News telling lies for that Blood Money

We ignoring human rights for that Blood Money The environment sacrificed for that Blood Money

We all going to pay the price for that Blood Money Thats what they want from me

The Planet gets warmer cuz you filling up your Humvee the cash from countries where kids going hungry. Drug war in Mexico is getting kind of ugly and we support it every time we buy a bag and puff trees. You must see the terrorist that want to bomb you get there money off the drugs you put in your nostrils. And I support that Julian Assange dude he showed us who we killing when we bring them bombs through! Do what I’ve got to, I’m just tryna survive shopping that gross product from off of I-95 Because thats how we was brought up, how we was taught to survive knowing we going to get caught up and locked up for our crimes i’m from where the greed breed hopelessness Politicians on the TV they dont think we notice it. Give me a week of them Wall Street bonuses I’ll take it to the streets and feed homeless kids off of this BLOOD MONEY

[-] 1 points by Catfitz55 (1) 3 years ago

So, as predicted, you are letting those willing to use force, and those willing to be the most relentless and ruthless, prevail in your soviet, instead of ensuring the liberalism of authentic democracy by reining in those sectarians who insist on force (in this case, loud drumming).

No surprise there, comrades. Welcome to Bolshevism versus Menshevism. Let's hope you don't last 75 years.

[-] 1 points by Fresh2Death13 (207) from Windsor, ON 3 years ago

I personally dislike having a "ruling class", it doesn't bug me that they fly around in helicopters so they never have to mingle with us on a bus or subway. It doesn't bug me they live in closed and gated communities. No, this does not bug me because it's their lives to live as they please. What does bug me is that they try to enforce upon us their ideology, they think theirs is the only opinion that matters. That we who are too stupid to have clawed and scrapped our way up the financial ladder can't possibly know whats good even for ourselves. For far too long we have let people with catchy slogans and nice suits, sell us the same bullshit that keeps us mired in the status quo. This two party system where people are given only two choices to lead their country is crap. Since when is Democracy a two sided affair? Someone please post and explain to me how it makes sense that only two very old and dated parties could know the pulse of the people. Especially when the very same people who run for office are the children of those who have held office previously. Yes, I am talking about families like the Bushs'. We all know Prescott Bush was charged with treason and that he supported the Nazis, yet his son and grandson was elected to lead the free world... Does this make sense? America and much of the world has been hijacked by a very quiet and secretive "ruling class". Where things are settled and discussed internationally without our knowledge or approval... Is that Democracy? This movement means to me a call to action, political action; direct action, any kind of action its time to DO something about it. America was once a Beacon of Freedom and Hope for the poor and oppressed, now America is a Beacon of the Rich and Powerful.

I must clarify I do not say that Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. are Nazis, I merely imply that the man who had such an impact on both of their lives, that they followed in his every footsteps in politics and secret societies, must have also imparted some of his own beliefs into them as well. The Winners of War write history books and I do not want history to read that this movement died out as quickly as it started if our children are even allowed to learn history under the NWO. I believe that the rich and powerful have always looked for something that defines them from us. They look for some reason beyond luck and circumstance to explain their good fortune. I believe this to be true of most of us. We all look for what defines us and where it used to be our morals and ways of life defining us as people now your job and bank account define you as a person. We together have changed the face of this planet. It was not a singular person who rose from animal hood into the Age of Man, it was together in small communities at first that we rose up from being more than our environment dictated. I see a dark future ahead a future filled with much struggle and austerity. There is hope too in this dark world, hope that we give the world to the next generation better than when we inherited it from ours. I refuse to believe that petty in-fighting, and tribal; and racial hatreds, can hold us back. We are the 99%. We are the writers of our own destinies. We are NOT defined by what we can buy but by what we have to give as human beings. The 1% as people are not bad they live the only life they have ever known in most cases. Others have made themselves and were not given a single thing EVER and that is to be respected. Any and All who stand in the way of change so that corporations can continue to export war and destruction so they can compete for the rebuilding contract are the enemy. We were not given the option of sides in this war, we are the enemy of the rich because the constitution that says we are their equals. The rich are bored with being rich they want power over our lives. Do not let your children fight in wars and die so that rich and the wealthy can live the American dream. This movement is at a crossroads, we can squabble to each other over how long the drummers can drum, or WE can DO something about it. I say go out and confront people over this, I want to see videos of CEO's getting blasted for their ineptitude with OUR money. I want to see Rockefeller sweating his piggy little forehead off under a constant and never ending barrage of outrage at his under handed secretive shaping of society. I will not be lead into the abyss of perpetual debt the 1% would have us believe is the only and best way. America, you have stood up to the greatest powers at the time throughout history. Be it Great Britain under its inbred kings or The Great German war machine. Now it is time America to Stand up to your Greatest threat of all, one that comes from within America. The Oligarchs and elite have worked you to exhaustion and as you fall and die carrying the extra weight of the rich they profit off of you with their "Dead Peasant" insurance claims. Even in Death the ruling elite get the last laugh

[-] 1 points by FutureHobo99ER (3) 3 years ago

Do we really want our National Guard posted and on stand bys to prevent civil unrest? Is it worth it to the GOP Tea Party millionaires at the tax cut trough, to increase costs in homeland security for all because of their contempt for the unemployed? Will it be worth to us all to leave unemployed extensions in the abyss?

2011-2012 A Deluge Of HOBOs! Should You Learn The Language? Today graffiti is prevalent on walls, residences, businesses and the infrastructure in America. A result of gangs slinging communication at each other while leaving the general public puzzled and bewildered. But this isn't the first time that indigenous groups have used code to converse with each other. In the 1930's millions of Hobos developed their own unique system of symbols which could be found on street curbs buildings and crossroads nationwide.

Here are the lyrics to Country Carl's Hobo Up: Song is the National Anthem for the Homeless

Kick this town, find the tracks Start over again and pass the hat Jump a bus if you have the cash Or use your truck until it's out of gas

Hobo Up Take a good friend Hobo Up This is not the end Hobo Up break a leg Hobo Up Open roads are for the brave

New depression blues cross our land Forget the bills forget the old plan A new wave lies bgeyond the hills Change your job build a wind mill

[-] 1 points by FutureHobo99ER (3) 3 years ago

Do we really want our National Guard posted and on stand bys to prevent civil unrest? Is it worth it to the GOP Tea Party millionaires at the tax cut trough, to increase costs in homeland security for all because of their contempt for the unemployed? Will it be worth to us all to leave unemployed extensions in the abyss?

2011-2012 A Deluge Of HOBOs! Should You Learn The Language? Today graffiti is prevalent on walls, residences, businesses and the infrastructure in America. A result of gangs slinging communication at each other while leaving the general public puzzled and bewildered. But this isn't the first time that indigenous groups have used code to converse with each other. In the 1930's millions of Hobos developed their own unique system of symbols which could be found on street curbs buildings and crossroads nationwide.

Here are the lyrics to Country Carl's Hobo Up: Song is the National Anthem for the Homeless

Kick this town, find the tracks Start over again and pass the hat Jump a bus if you have the cash Or use your truck until it's out of gas

Hobo Up Take a good friend Hobo Up This is not the end Hobo Up break a leg Hobo Up Open roads are for the brave

New depression blues cross our land Forget the bills forget the old plan A new wave lies bgeyond the hills Change your job build a wind mill

[-] 1 points by radicalhumility (56) 3 years ago

What will work is for enough of the "Drummer Community" must lead by example and create it socially unacceptable to OVER drum. Us drummers play on our knees and bodies all day ANYWAY. I'm sure some Drummer leaders can create rhythmic solutions that are in sync with drummers need to play, but are not loud enough to bother and distract during "quiet hours"

[-] 1 points by radicalhumility (56) 3 years ago

I've been a drummer for 20 years and immediately can understand the necessity for drummers to understand the proper times for playing. DRUMMERS: You will have a GREATER impact by playing during agreed times only. If you are a true musician, you will embrace the concept of: LESS IS MORE!

[-] 1 points by rholst26 (1) 3 years ago

Thank You to the occupy wall street and the 99% 's it is about time that We get the greed out of wall street and Money out of politics
i am throwing out an Idea here We all know what black Friday is right or Do we why call it black after all we all win right , the 99% get a bargain and the Corporations get there bonus that i feel they do not Deserve. So why not this year Make Black Friday Black for them And every person that agrees with occpuy wall street and the 99% of us Should boycot shopping On that day , you can still go the day before or the day After and you agree with the 99% of this nation do not buy a car that day if we can bring this Economy to a halt even if it is for just one day they will listen to our grievances.!

[-] 1 points by squarerootofzero (81) 3 years ago

People have the right to respectfully request that the drumming be toned down in the same manner that they respectfully request that people stay non-violent, ect. We live in society where you don't have the right to DO anything you want. BUT people DO have the right to exercise freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. As far as I know no drummer was pepper-sprayed by anyone other than the police so the "pot calling the kettle black" argument is a moot point.

[-] 1 points by pissedoffconstructionworker (602) 3 years ago

The drummers are going to kill the goose that lays the golden captive audience.

[-] 1 points by Saveyourself (1) from Hamburg, NJ 3 years ago

In the last election, the young voters came out in record numbers. Those voters are statistically democratic. Well you got your "CHANGE" while the corps keep the dollars! OWS is mostly the same demographic. PLEASE, before you throw another election, educate yourselves and understand there is NO SUCH THING as a free lunch! The government is NOT going to save you. You need to stand up and SAVE YOURSELF! Yeah I know Obama inherited a handful, but things have gotten FAR WORSE than better. So much for "CHANGE" The 2 party system is BROKEN! VOTE INDEPENDENT!

[-] 1 points by Barefootin (33) 3 years ago

Drummers create energy into the air, resonating something deep within our being, our auditory space, which which moves all of us into a rhythmic unity... However freedom vs. control is an interesting reality of liberty for all.

I've seen several people refer to Socialism and Communism regarding OWS. Yet most, if asked to give a clear definition of these terms, would be hard pressed to do so. What is communism is a great question to ask the average person walking the streets. Here's a simple excercise that can clarify this discussion for so many that have just accepted we live in a "free country" as we "spread Democracy" around the world...

Let's look at 3 documents side by side. The first is the Ten Commandments, and it matters not if you're Christian, Jewish, Atheists,... , we're just going to look at the document. The second is the Bill of Rights and the third is the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx.

The first says: Thou shalt not... The document is based on the concept that we have the right to pursue life, liberty and happiness as long as we honor those around us. That in our pursuit we don't knock down our neighbors fence or do anything that might be injurious to another human being. It's a basic foundation of morals and integrity.

The second document, The Bill of Rights, was an addendum to The Constitution which was a binding document from We The People to restrict the government to operate within the 10 square miles of the District of Columbia. That document was presented to some very wise people who said: "Great job, but not quite good enough..." They created an additional 17 articles, 10 of which were accepted as The Bill Of Rights, Freedom of speech, Freedom of press, Freedom of religion,....

The third document is the Communist Manifesto stating: Government control of transportation, Government control of education, Government control of farming, etc...

Now of these three documents, which do you feel is closer to the way our country exists today?

Yes drummers have the right to express their frustration and help unify people together, as long as they honor the integrity and space of others, as in understanding the spirit of the first two documents and vision of the founders.

[-] 1 points by ExpertNovice (4) 3 years ago

Regarding the neighbors who are negatively affected by the drumming, has anyone considered offering compensation to them? The survey on the front page said 70% of OWS protesters are employed, and also OWS is receiving donations so maybe you can spare some money. Or you could offer your labor as compensation, maybe replacing some of your protest signs with messages encouraging pedestrians to visit small businesses nearby. You are the 99%, but so are the drummers and so are some of the people being impacted so you should stick together. Obviously you feel some responsibility for what the drummers are doing or else you wouldn't be trying to make them stop, but if repeatedly asking them to stop isn't working then the neighborly thing to do would be to try to make amends in some other way. Your logic seems to be that as long as you continue to fruitlessly ask them to stop you think you've done enough and can just otherwise wash your hands of the whole thing. That's not right.

[-] 1 points by milkweed3 (1) from Tucson, AZ 3 years ago

Great thoughts from BathroomGirl! Proving that a beautiful compromise can usually be found! Perhaps it could be tried? I am from Occupy Tucson, and can well understand the conflict. Drumming is certainly well-intentioned but not appreciated by everyone (like me!), especially non-stop. @ sdcheung, I would say that using "Fly-Over State" as an insult makes you appear to have been raised in a hovel, except, I have respect for people who live in hovels.

[-] 1 points by seanbateman9 (2) 3 years ago

midtown west new yorker here - I support everyting that @occupy is doing and many many thnkx for helping and creating a more mentally healthy USa and wolrd by creating a new dialogue -- RE; Drummers: I have been to liberty sq 4 times now - truly value the beauty and primative cry of the drummers and all that represents...I go downtown to pray and meditate to the drums around the tree of life: please dont ever stop!! my prayers that you resolve it all peacefully but who ever reads this I love the drummers and part of the reason I look forward to going back and dance with my breathen....brothers and sisters solidarity....please dont chase away the drumming !!

[-] 1 points by AsylumSeaker (1) 3 years ago

There's nothing wrong with or ironic about recursive self-similarity, many organic structures exhibit it and I'm not suprised to see it here in the way that the drummers within the occupation resemble the occupation within new york. However, this is only one way to look at the situation - another is to see the people not in terms of a hierarchy of nested sets (ny > ows > drummers, etc) but to see the people as a network of individuals each with their own intents, interests, directives, etc - and to include in this network not only the drummers, protestors and general citizenry of the city but also the police, the media and the global audience. In this context the simplified image of the drummers as a microreflection of ows tends to break down as they can easily be seen as another group of individuals with their own unique position.

[-] 1 points by mserfas (652) from Ashland, PA 3 years ago

Could someone get down to the very basics for beginners here? Why do people form these drum circles? And why do they gravitate to protests to do so? What's the point of the drumming?

[-] 1 points by Dost (315) 3 years ago

It's probably time for all serious minded people to realize that the real work is not and will not occur on in the Park(s). Let the drummers et al have the park and continue your daily meetings elsewhere. This way, you can get a good night's sleep and be up ready to give energy to what will really work n the long run: building an Organization. I know it is hard to let the Park go but if things are so anarchic that you can not even get stupid fucking drummers to stop, then this is hopeless. I like drummers but there is a time, a place and a time limit for this stuff. I suggest they walk and drum over a different route each day and those who want to go with them, do so. The point is to draw attention to the movement. You can have a Flag, a Fife and Drummer leader the parade of drummers, dancers, artists, etc. and make sure you have literature to pass out. They could do this daily for a couple hours and it would be super cool.

[-] 1 points by douglind (2) 3 years ago

Great job everyone ! I think limiting the amount corporate officers can draw in salaries would make the companies more profitable hence increasing profits could be put into expanding and which creates more positions. That should be the rules for every publicly owned Corporations. Unfortunately private companies such as the onesthe Koch Brothers own would not be affected. I also feel that the Glass and Steagall act should be brought back and tightened. When it was removed all hell broke loose. Banks could now trade stocks and buy as much real estate as they wanted because the bill was removed,which was the only thing holding them back. According to New Scientists “AS PROTESTS against financial power sweep the world this week, science may have confirmed the protesters' worst fears. An analysis of the relationships between 43,000 transnational corporations has identified a relatively small group of companies, mainly banks, with disproportionate power over the global economy” (Coghlan and MacKenzie Oct- 2011)http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.500-revealed--the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world.html

[-] 1 points by douglind (2) 3 years ago

I think limiting the amount corporate officers can draw in salaries would make the companies more profitable hence increasing profits could be put into expanding and which creates more positions. That should be the rules for every publicly owned Corporations. Unfortunately private companies such as the onesthe Koch Brothers own would not be affected. I also feel that the Glass and Steagall act should be brought back and tightened. When it was removed all hell broke loose. Banks could now trade stocks and buy as much real estate as they wanted because the bill was removed,which was the only thing holding them back. According to New Scientists “AS PROTESTS against financial power sweep the world this week, science may have confirmed the protesters' worst fears. An analysis of the relationships between 43,000 transnational corporations has identified a relatively small group of companies, mainly banks, with disproportionate power over the global economy” (Coghlan and MacKenzie Oct- 2011)http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.500-revealed--the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world.html

[-] 1 points by romanwood (1) 3 years ago

I have been following the movement closely and this ridiculous drumming issue is the first 'real' thing I've seen that makes OWS appear hack. I have great faith in the serious potential of OWS. If a few passive / aggressive drummers can't get their head out of there ass to see the potential damage of their selfish expression then they need to be treated as agent provocateurs. As a matter of fact, if the problem drummers were actually agent provocateur planted by the powers who want to shut down OWS, then it's a brilliant move because it's almost working. Nevermind how much energy has been wasted on these people. I'd like to mention I am a drummer and successful musician who utterly understands the power of music. Less and more focused drumming will have a way bigger impact because it becomes and event, not just an overplayed blur in the background. I'd like to say to the drummers who can't see this are not only outside of the positive sensibility of this movement, but also outside any musical sensibility that contains the higher potential of music; unification, connection to the divine, emotional resolve and meaning in general.

[-] 1 points by Lindaxnyc (7) 3 years ago

Liberty Park Community Board 1 meeting is at PS 234, 292 Greenwich street, 6: 15 pm. Who is going to be there to speak for the 99%?? I hope its not the drummers... "Community Board 1 is the neighborhood org of people who actually live there. They have the right to raise issues that will push police to get involved, or to say they support the occupation and leave it alone. They have apparently passed some kind of resolution. It is important to get people who are organizers, and who are articulate, cleaned up, and calm, to go to that meeting to represent to CB1 that there are, for example, x many people cleaning the park x times a day, and that there are physical and mental health care professionals there, and whatever else they want the neighborhood council of elders to know."

[-] 1 points by Arnieds (1) 3 years ago

Drums and Demonstrations When NOT to play: http://puppetista.org/drums/#etiquette

[-] 1 points by demonspawn79 (186) 3 years ago

Seriously, someone needs to man up and just break their fucking drums and send them packing. This is beyond ridiculous. Who the fuck are these people? Are they so clueless that they can't see they are actually threatening the very existence of OWS? SOMEONE JUST WALK UP WITH A FUCKING HAMMER AND BUST THEIR FUCKING DRUMS!!

[-] 1 points by budgood (1) 3 years ago

This seems like psychology 101. When a group forms a hierarchy starts to form by individuals passive-aggressively asserting their dominance through imagined grievances. Isnt society now a far more complicated example of this paradigm. The Main threat to this movement is not the police state but internal divisions. Dont start an 'arms race' with the drummers and the volume of your voices. Use you ingenuity to find a way of making them your work song. It is well documented that during the slave exodus from Africa to the Americas, slavers who did not bring their slaves on deck to play drums and dance lost the majority of their slaves to suicide and disease. People for whom music is a way of life can not suffer the indignity of being marginalised because of their identity. They are your strongest voice, use them!

[-] 1 points by kjcarlin (23) 3 years ago

If the overwhelming majority think it is hurting the movement then they either need to comply or leave. This IS NOT about them. If they are sincere occupiers why would they jeopardize the movement with their own seemingly selfish and self-indulgent non-compliance. Makes no sense.

[-] 1 points by OWSrLOSERS (4) 3 years ago

drummers=retards

[-] 1 points by Brugmansia (1) 3 years ago

How the drumming issue is handled is being watched by many who might join the movement. Will there be fairness, reason, respect, boundaries? Is this a healthy family? Will the occupiers be evicted because a few 'teenage' family members don't respect the neighbors and don't listen to the needs of others? Constant drumming is maddening if you are not the one doing it. This helps no one, threatens the whole community, and could bring down the occupation. If the drummers won't respect the rights of others, they should go...

[-] 1 points by SaRaIam (105) 3 years ago

It is very hard to hear what's going on with the constant banging of drums, it's nice to open the space to other "vibes" that don't necessarily include the monotonous pounding of drums. I play percussion some times but think that there is a monopoly on the sounds coming from Liberty Square by the drummers, and I would certainly like to hear a variety of music interspersed with some quiet times for talking, films, etc. Anyone remember the Slits song, "Silence is a rhythm too!" Plus which, I think it's true that the perpetual drum circle sort of makes the OWS movement an easy target for ridicule, not that people who want to bring us down won't find something else to make fun of. But why make it so easy?

[-] 1 points by UptownRad (1) 3 years ago

The drummers are exactly like the Wall Street bankers--they don't care what the other 99 percent think, as long as they get to do what they want. Grow up. And by the way, it's not music--it's noise.

[-] 1 points by ponostreetwear (1) from Honolulu, HI 3 years ago

it appears that the drumming is a contentious, divisive, disruptive, intrusive and annoying practice and not the "bringing rhythm to the revolution" as the drummers contend. in fact, the only people who appear to be deriving any kind of benefit from the drumming are the drummers themselves. its clear that, in the best interest of furthering the revolution, the only solution is to permanently ban drumming from the square and from the movement. democracy does not mean that everyone gets to do whatever they want or even that everyone gets a voice especially if that "voice" is contentious, divisive, disruptive, intrusive and annoying to the majority of the people.

[-] 1 points by justsayin (3) 3 years ago

One in twenty five Americans is a sociopath. Not axe-murderer type sociopaths, just run-of-the-mill everyday people without the capacity of empathy, or a sense of moral responsibility to others. These people are drawn like moths to a flame to situations that will allow them to exercise their pathological needs to hurt others, to win, to feel the disgusting and obscene thrill of power over another person. This explains bullies. This is why cops mace innocent women. This is why Wall Streeters steal. This is why drummers want to poison the occupation. These behaviors are, very precisely, unconscionable.

Unfortunately, there is no reasoning with people who do not possess empathy, they simply don't have the capacity to understand an argument based on moral responsibility. That would be like trying to explain particle physics to a cat.

There are only two options when dealing with sociopaths. They respond to negative consequences that are overwhelming, personal and severe… which isn't realistic in this case. The only other option is exclusion.

There are some very dark and disgusting corners of the collective psyche. Sociopathy will be an ongoing problem. The GA will have to figure out a way to deal with the pathological 4% of the 99%.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by plyslz (8) 3 years ago

...the police should be called...

[-] 1 points by plyslz (8) 3 years ago

I bet that it's annoying as hell... but they don't care do they? Its their right to drum - so dammit - I'm going to drum - screw everyone else!

[-] 1 points by WeUsAll (200) 3 years ago

Equal time should be given to the Trumpets. Please bring your trumpets to add some melody and harmony to the movement; the movement can not survive on rhythm alone!

[-] 1 points by thesoulkey (1) 3 years ago

BathroomGirl for President! Just Kidding. I found your idea to be incredibly constructive and powerful. I actually got a little choked up reading it because it was such an inclusive solution to the problem and rather than trying to silence the drummers, you put them at the forefront of the movement. Maybe they can develop specific drum chants that everyone can identify with the movement as a constant reminder that we are alive and strong and will not rest till real change echos throughout the city.

[-] 1 points by ua1176 (1) 3 years ago

the excess drumming is distracting and the attitude of the drummers is silly. i don't know how else to say it. it is absurd that such a trivial issue is occupying so much of everyone's time and energy, especially when there's no shortage of seriously important work to be done.

[-] 1 points by art (0) 3 years ago

If the GA is the supreme decision-making body of OWS then its decisions need to be adhered to. If they aren't, there needs to be a mechanism by which they can be enforced.

[-] 1 points by Lang (3) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Do you think you could set up a democracy and rule by majority? Maybe? You lose credibility when you can't speak with a common voice FOR THE COMMON GOOD as your members, in a democracy define this fluid term. The drummers REFUSE to comply with the consensus and the Community Board that supports you?

[-] 1 points by Lindaxnyc (7) 3 years ago

As I waited on the steps for the start of the GA last night, someone said 'Make way, musicians coming through'. and we moved aside while the drummers graced the GA with their presence (I say this because they usually continue drumming during the GA's) .I followed them to listen in on what they saying among themselves and to get some idea of what they were going to propose to the GA. They spoke in hushed tones and used words like 'us' and 'them' and someone said 'we will tell them what we want...' They sounded so independent from the revolution that I had to ask them if they felt separate from the rest of us, and if their desire to drum 24/7 was more important than us being allowed to stay in the park. One of them said the drumming was being used as an excuse and that 'they' will find another excuse to get rid of us even if they stop drumming. Suddenly, when speaking to me, we were 'us' again...

[-] 1 points by nich (57) 3 years ago

To those who see commies in their underwear. They imply that rationalizing capitalism is communism or perhaps that capitalism cannot possibly be fair. To the drummers, live and let live as in the golden rule. You are cooking up a shit sandwich and forcing everyone to eat it. You have been given a lot and a lot is expected of you. That is fair and fairness, not some sidewalk psychology about drumming that is weak, lame and stupid (perhaps as a result of your euphoric high, which you, the drummers only seem to have) has been offered. Look at the handwriting on the wall, if you are ostracized by this group then where can you possibly go?

[-] 1 points by Lindaxnyc (7) 3 years ago

On my way home from the park last night something was bothering me about the GA meeting but I could not put my finger on it. This morning it hit me! I have always thought it was odd that the drummers continued drumming during GA's as if they did not care about anything but themselves, and last night sure enough, after they said what they wanted to say, they left. They did not stay to listen to the announcements of other groups. The bottom line is they want us to honor their right to express themselves, but they walk away after they have had their say.....They claim to be the heart of the revolution, but the heart is not selfish. It does not walk away after it is finished. It cares about others....

[-] 1 points by entarage (36) from New York, NY 3 years ago

i noticed that too. they walked off, as if leaving a stage. i heard a couple of guys even say "congratulations" , "good going",etc...WTF?

[-] 1 points by Jazii (2) 3 years ago

omg! the drumming argument is extremely petty nobody said that the drumming was a bother they just simply asked for it to be cut back. everbody is supposed to be working together to achieve a common goal letting something as small as drumming cause conflict is simply childish everybody has a voice and everybody deserves to be heared.... let it go people its not that serious.

[-] 1 points by Lindaxnyc (7) 3 years ago

Actually, the residents in the community have complained about the drumming. The rights of others to live in peace is not a petty issue...

[-] 1 points by Jazii (2) 3 years ago

omg! the drumming argument is extremely petty nobody said that the drumming was a bother they just simply asked for it to be cut back. everbody is supposed to be working together to achieve a common goal letting something as small as drumming cause conflict is simply childish everybody has a voice and everybody deserves to be heared.... let it go people its not that serious.

[-] 1 points by lovespaceship (6) 3 years ago

Drummer should use them STRONG AND LOUD ENERGY in the marches during protests. Sounds can be a force to concentrate or disperse, so let's use appropriately.

[-] 1 points by