Forum Post: Why Taxes are NOT the Answer
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 8, 2011, 3:48 p.m. EST by mgiddin1
(1057)
from Linthicum, MD
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
If you have looked at any of the projection graphs for the debt versus revenue, the truth is they can't raise taxes high enough to ever pay for the debt. Something like 30% of our payments are on INTEREST alone. What will happen when Bernanke can't keep a lid on interest rates - which will skyrocket once the countries holding U.S. $ figure out that we're never going to pay it back, and they have a viable exit strategy (e.g., SDR's, the Bancor, ??) The graphs aren't in a straight line - they are actually exponential, and that is assuming we stay at a steady rate of growth. That's why I believe people who say this is truly generational warfare, because if they collected the amount of taxes needed, the economy would come to a grinding halt (not just ours, the whole globe), and there wouldn't be enough production to pay it off, EVER. If we take the higher taxes route, we impoverish our children for generations to come. Sometimes I think the government is well aware of this - and this huge military buildup and run-up of the debt is like the movie Leaving Las Vegas - on one final drunken binge until it's all over. There are a growing number of people who think this is intentional financial implosion so that Americans will beg for a North American Union, paving the way for a New World Order. Sigh. The only answer is much smaller government. We are broke! We have made too many promises! We have bought cheap trinkets from China for too long without producing anything worthwhile in return! Dismantle the machine! Tear it to the ground! The war machine, the government machine, the fake money machine! It's killing us, and the world to boot! Sorry, I get carried away...
When you raise someones taxes it encourages them to get more involved in the direction of our common interests in this country. When you pay condominium fees it makes that person get more involved in it's association. Bringing back the percentage of taxes from the 1950's on the wealthiest of Americans will give them a chance of voting on where their money goes. These top tier Americans will vote what is right since many of them contribute and donate their money to charities every year anyway. Some organizations like the Patriotic Millionaires are already volunteering to raise their taxes today. These people understand the inequities in our society and realize what needs to be done. Maybe bringing back tax rates from that era might be a little extreme but it was done before and only made our country stronger- not weaker.
There have been 60 years in the interim for tax loop-holes to be created like offshore accounts, putting the money through NGO's/charities (which is what the big boys like to do). Not to mention that if your tax burden here was 50% and in Latin America, it's 10%, where would you live? The more intrusive government gets in to people's lives, the more people will leave the country. There are developed ex-pat communities in many parts of the world. Also, as we have become increasingly globalized, the richest U.S. citizens see themselves more often as 'citizens of the world', not necessarily as Americans.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturenews/3652957/The-rootless-world-of-the-super-rich.html
Very interesting article.
I know. I came across a similar article months ago and it seemed quite ominous to me. If you have a super-rich class that doesn't have any allegiance to the U.S., that's pretty disturbing. Especially since the majority of Americans would probably describe themselves as patriotic, even the progressive ones.
The problem with the tax system is that it is far too complicated. Just by reworking it you can solve a lot of problems and get things going on the right track again.
In fact, I created a proposal myself that I did the math on were I both lowered the tax rates for people and at the same time raised tons of extra revenue for good old uncle sam (on the low end of $330 billion a year, high end of $500 billion).
I sometimes wonder if the people we elect even know how to do basic math. Leave it to an engineer like me to simplify it. Only took me the better part of a weekend to fix. And that was just the extra money from individual tax rates. I didn't even run the numbers on the business or corporate side yet.
Some sense ! Some nonsense !
Taxes are secondary, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers yourselves. Consequently, I have posted the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate Committee at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Taxes are secondary.
The economy has to work properly, first.
For that to happen, we need to bring industry and innovation back to this country. There's no reason that shouldn't happen. Our industrial base was given away and if there were any justice the perps would be swinging from the lamp posts in the parking lot.
Read "The Global Class War" by Jeffery Faux and "Betrayal of American Prosperity" by former Reagan trade negotiator Clyde Prestowitz to see "left" and "right" converging on the same problem from different starting points.
Raising taxes is only trying to make up for the millions of jobs lost that once paid taxes. Take into consideration just how much money is lost through the government when the jobless can no longer pay property tax, buy products with a sales tax, tax upon wages earned,etc.
Why did we run up so much debt?
Because the money system is a scam! Why does a private bank create american dollars? There should be no interest or inflation,. these are manufactured by the banking/monetary systems that are non-democratic and not even accountable to our government. Change please.
Politicians get themselves reelected by giving away free shit. Jobs programs, tax credits for this or that cause or action, farm subsidies, welfare of all stripes and on and on. If they increased taxes to pay for all that "free" shit than they would get unelected. So they just borrowed the money from China instead and everybody's happy.
Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money - all of the politicians vote themselves part of the kitty.
We are waging war on 7 fronts!
As the world's reserve currency, the rest of the world has been happy to buy up our debt (especially China, but others as well) based on the understanding we would someday pay it back. But now, looks like Bernanke will default by default and print our debt away. The trouble is, it will destroy the currency, and the what's left of the middle class along with it. Inflation is great if you owe a crapload of money.
It's terrible if you need to eat and you're not ridiculously wealthy.
Countries with higher taxes are proven to be happier as a whole.
What? That's not an argument; you should defend what you say with facts or logic.
Who is happier in your hypothetical country? The ones paying the taxes or the beneficiaries? That makes no sense.
Take for example Canada. We are taxed in order to have longer maternity leave, free healthcare coverage and so on, and as a whole, we all benefit. More opportunities are given to pursue what you want to in life. As long as the taxes are taken care of properly.
"OK, it's probably not the taxes that are making people in The Netherlands, Denmark and Finland the happiest folks in the world. But the services those nations' residents get for their taxes is probably why those countries are one, two and three in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development's, or OECD's, latest happiness rankings."
Read more: Taxes make for happy citizens | Bankrate.com
http://www.bankrate.com/financing/taxes/taxes-make-for-happy-citizens/#ixzz1aNySuBJS
And If you want, I can give you more examples
Please, go back to your Ayn Rand books; you're part of the problem, not part of the solution ...
Did he say something that was not true? If they did, please point it out because I did not see it. I thought this movement was to be all inclusive.
No, the 'rich' are the problem - I think you should go after them.
I agree, the tax issue is a total sideshow, and should not be the focus of this movement. It will provide some more cash in the short-term for Congress to waste. And the debt is never going to be paid back in full, everyone knows that, including the Chinese and everyone else holding treasuries. The only thing that matters is that the next payment is made, keeping the debt pyramid going. That's the nature of a ponzi scheme.
The only way out of our economic woes is to grow our way out. And being that 70% of our economy is based on consumer spending, the only way for our economy to grow is for people to buy more worthless stuff that they don't need. It's about time that we ask ourselves whether this endless-growth monetary system is actually doing us any good. Do we need more cars, bigger houses, more random crap? Would any sane person say that our problem as a nation is that we don't consume enough?? Our economic system has become so divorced from reality that we mistake economic success for happiness, health, and genuine prosperity.
Your government at work. Bipartisan Hagan-McCain bill gives transnational corporations a tax break:
http://news.yahoo.com/foreign-profits-tax-break-gets-boost-senate-164347340.html
Still think we should tax rich individuals?
Here's another one: Woodrow Wilson, 1913: The Federal Reserve Act is passed on Christmas Eve, at the 11th hour, after almost everyone has gone home to be with their families.
"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence
Taxes can be the answer if we don't send it to Federal govt and keep it within the state itself.
States can tax in plenty of ways, and they do. Property taxes, county taxes, municipal taxes, city taxes. And indeed those taxes often affect us most. They certainly are a better barometer of our everyday needs.
Well, YES! Power to the states. The states are the largest unit at which our representatives will still respond to the people.
The Feds are NOT listening. Isn't this one of the reasons why we are all here? Do you feel represented in Washington? I sure don't, and I live just up the street.
If we return some of these powers to the states, then all of us can VOTE with our FEET as well. I would probably never choose to live in a state like California, but then again - Maryland isn't much better...
I also say - uphold the 10th amendment.
Go South Dakota for having your own bank!
Maybe we should get serious about secession.
I appluad your audacity, but you're not going to secede. That issue was settled in 1865.
As for taxes, I'm thinking our best bet is to tax the rich and have fewer taxes for the poor. After all, if you tax the rich people, the poor people have more money to buy the rich people's products.
Everyone wins.
Where do they come up with this stuff? You can take 100% of what the top 1% have and you won't put a dent in our problem. Check the Numbers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY8LKII_MNA
Sure, taxing the rich solves the problem to a large extent.
Let's say, we have a majority by democratic party and they raise the tax for the rich and support the poor and needy. The next time there is a conservative party in power, the taxes are brought down for the rich and the whole problem starts again.
We have had so many wars by America because the Federal govt has too much money collected by income taxes which in turn attracts the Military corporations to influence federal government to start unnecessary wars. So don't give income taxes to federal govt and let the states collect and spend it. 80% of this country's problem will be solved.
Remember the fundamental principle, concentration of power whether money power or political power gives an opportunity to abuse it. The best thing to do is prevent concentration of power in the first place. This is the key principle for a successful democracy.
You're counting on the idea that corporations force the government into wars. Can you prove that?
Just see the amount of profits the Chemical and Military corporations and contractors make. That tells the whole story my friend. What was the reason for Iraq war ? Even today nobody knows, except that some corporations made a ton of money from the war and the US govt took on trillions in debt. Remember, our generation and our future generations have to repay this debt in taxes.
Have you heard about the Prison Corporations in America and how much profits they make and how much money they spend on lobbying.
That's an effect, not a cause. Yes, they do make money. That does not mean they caused the war. That's a conspiracy theory.
There is no doubt that all American wars; from Vietnam war till Iraq war always had a nexus between the people in power and the military lobbyists and corporations. That is not a conspiracy theory, it is just too foolish to ignore for any thinking mind.
Since you can't be reasoned with I'll leave it at that.
Some of the rich people in America have become rich by shedding the blood of innocent civilians in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq and many other countries. It's the truth about America and some wealthy Americans.
Yes, they got rich. But they didn't start the war. That's as ridiculous as saying washington destroyed the twin towers.
Nonsense comparison! The 99% Americans will decide on their own. Either you are involved in this crime against humanity or you are too foolish to be deliberately blind.
Wealthy and greedy people (especially in America) will do anything to make money ! That is the truth.
How much less than 0% can you make Federal Income taxes for 50% of the population?
99% of all statistics are made up on the spot. Apple alone has a huge amount of money. Bill Gates is willing to be taxed. THey have more than enough money.
More than enough money for what?
Possibly go a LONG way towards paying off the national debt.
Sure, if those were the facts. Unfortunately for you, they aren't the facts.
If you took everything bill Gates ad Warren Buffet have you only get enough money to run the country for a couple of weeks. So what do you do after that?
I think our best bet is to get spending under control first. All this talk of cuts to the federal budget is nothing but smoke and mirrors. It's based on cuts to the baseline budget, that expands automatically by 6-8% per year. When they talk of cuts and especially those draconian cuts, they are talking nothing more than reductions to the growth in spending. Washington will still spend more even if they cut 2-4 trillion from the budget over 10 years. OTOH, higher taxes take real money out of the economy.
The budget could be balanced in 6-7 years without a single cut or tax raised. Just freeze spending at current levels. Hell, millions of working Americans have had to balance their budgets in the wake of pay freezes, why shouldn't Uncle Sam?
You can raise taxes until the cows come home (or die on some CAFO acreage, but that's another story). We're broke. We'll never be able to pay it back. And they know it, too.
You don't understand how the country generates income. If the wealthy upper class pay much more taxes, then we'll climb right out of debt.
We're far from broke.
What grade are you in?
The graph is exponential!! It really ticks up after the Gulf War starts, but since 2009, the debt has actually started to go parabolic.
Article in the Wall Street Journal (I know, the bad guys) - describing how even if we took 100% of 'the rich' people's income, it won't even come close...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123561551065378405.html
Ofcourse, you can't tax someone at 100%, neither can you tax them at even 50 or 60% - because they'll vote with their feet, too - and go to Brazil.
We don't have to pay off the entire national debt. Now days that's crazy talk. As rich people get richer, so does the country. If the gov taxes them.
How can rich people get richer if the economy is in the toilet?
Oh that's right - use the Federal Reserve to help them privatize profits, and socialize their losses (i.e., you and I get to pay for the next few generations, no problem, right?)
Plus, they don't have any intention of paying off the national debt. They're going to inflate it away. But do you know what that means? It means we're going to go the store and have to pay $75 for a loaf of bread. No joke. Read about Zimbabwe and the Weimar Republic.
Inflation is a hidden tax on everyone, not just the rich. You can't stick it to the rich - it doesn't work and ultimately, you're just sticking it to yourself...
I thing BeCareful is what is know as a troll. His posts are too off the wall to be anything else.
Could be, or he's just not the sharpest blade in the drawer...
nice,. ;)
Seems about right. There is not an easy kill switch on this blasted machine,. we could pull the plug,. or stop inserting our coin!
I do think it would be better to try and get the majority of people to start working now, for the inevitable transition from consumer corporate dominator culture to the future egalitarian regenerative life affirming human based living systems that are inevitable.
So,. while some folks are working to kill this broken machine,. some others can be building new systems that make better sense given the levels of resources and the growing population.
This planet still has a lot going for it! We can both remove the suicidal-parasitic corporate death-culture from this planet, while building a real human bright green future,.
Search; permaculture, slowmoney, relocalize, etc.
I'm all about local food and permaculture. Our Big Agra approach has failed. Even the food they're growing is poisonous, and it's a big part of the reason why the Pharm companies are making so much money. Everyone is sick and getting sicker.
This year I got chickens and tore up some of the front lawn and planted a bunch of vegetables. I've been putting some food up, making my own wine, giving food away. If everyone did this, we could feed ourselves in pretty much every part of the country. This is a great country with unbelievable resources. Heck, there are even people who are growing food in cities in abandoned warehouses using aquaponics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qZPwBPAqks
The US has one of the lowest tax burdens of all industrialized countries. Likewise, it spends among the least of all industrialized countries. (That we have a deficit despite not spending much money speaks to just how ridiculously low our taxes have gotten). This isn't to say that we don't spend too much on certain things, but it is to say that we do not remotely have a spending problem. What we do have is an equity problem. The failure to tax the rich at appropriately high levels has been one of the main contributors to the sharp increase in income inequality over the last 30 years. That money that goes untaxed is used as a political slush fund by the top 1% (which is mostly composed of business and financial executives) to further dominate DC and pass policy in their interest. We create spirals of inequality and corruption when we fail to ensure equity of income distribution.
You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg
You are looking at the wrong data. The US is at the bottom of industrialized countries in terms of tax revenue it takes in per GDP. See here: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-news/us/tax-revenue-as-a-percentage-of-gdp-in-the-developed-world/article2114914/?from=2114872
I do not at all think that taxes on the majority of Americans are too low. Taxes on the top 1% are, however, criminally low and is one of the main causes of the sharp rise in inequality over the last three decades. (We have also seen sharp declines in revenue from corporate taxes, which have been replaced by regressive payroll taxes.)
And America, historically, has one of the most thriving economies in the world. Do you not think that the "price" for paying for that thriving economy is less tax revenue as a % of GDP? A thriving private sector economy and higher taxes are mutually exclusive.
What do you believe the tax rates are on the top 1%? What are they paying now?
Most Americans have been excluded from the gains of America's economy over the last thirty years. Those gains have gone overwhelmingly disproportionately to the top 1%. Why should we care about how much our economy thrives if only a handful of people get to benefit from it? This is an equity issue through and through.
I missed your answer on what you think the top 1% are paying now in taxes.
3rd party data doesn't support your premise. Compared to the rest of the world, the US in an enviable place, at any income level. The UN Human Development Index ranks the US 4th out of 172 in the world, yet we are down at 17th in the world on the UN Poverty Index.
No one can deny a gap between rich and poor. It exists and is a product of our system. However, most of the world's citizens that are living in poverty would be offended by the US's definition of poverty.
I agree, but not for long. We have tripled our money supply in the last three years. The government keeps recalculating CPI. They don't even count the price of gasoline or food in the inflation formula!!! I believe we are living on borrowed time in this country. When the SHTF, we won't be able to afford bread at the store. We won't be able to feed ourselves.
The bigger they are, the harder they fall... Get your wheelbarrow ready to take your worthless US$ to the store, because that's where we're headed.
The US has the most wealth in the world but is 4th on HDI? That means we're doing something wrong. You have also cited the unadjusted ranking. When the rankings are adjusted to take inequality into account, the US falls to 13th. Again, despite having the most wealth in the world. Moreover, it will continue to fall as inequality persists here. The data plainly show that the US has the highest inequality of all industrialized countries.
Also that the distribution of gains from growth in the economy over the last three decades has been highly inequitable is indisputable.
//i.imgur.com/sCt8d.jpg
http://www.cbpp.org/files/9-9-09pov.pdf
It doesn't mean we are doing something wrong. It means that in every economic system there are trade-offs. Each system has strengths and weaknesses. Inequality is one draw backs of our system.
Here's the graph for personal and corporate income taxes by country - I note that all of the PIGs have higher tax rates than we do, except for Ireland (wait a minute, that data is from 2005, before evil austerity measures recently imposed by who? Oh yeah, the IMF).
Interesting - looks like Iceland has a lower tax rate than we do. Oh, that's right - they told the banksters to pound sand, defaulted, and the people took their representative government back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg
And your chart shows why we do not have the manufacturing base we used to.... highest corporate tax in the world.... exactly what you all want to increase since these corporations are soooo evil....
No we don't. Why do you think that is? Are our leaders incompetent? Or was this financial crisis intentional?
yes our leader is incompetent.... I believe the original downturn was due to government meddling in the private sector and I believe that our coming collapse is exactly intentional brought on by our far left liberal/ socialist movement. All I hear among you is Wall Street blah, Corporations blah... How bout occupy the ballot box to change things under our Constitution!!
Our economy has been imploded; the currency is only beginning to reflect the hyperinflation that has been created.
As for voting: 1) most voting machines in the U.S. are now electronic, which can be hacked by any kid with an internet connection and 10$ in parts: http://digg.com/news/technology/e_voting_machines_can_be_hacked_remotely_controlled_to_change_votes 2) a choice between a 'left' and a 'right' candidate is no more than a choice between Coke and Pepsi (yes, I am saying that they are corporate brands). 3) if martial law is declared during the impending culmination of this global financial crisis, there may not be an election in 2012 at all.
Self-described 'Progressives' need to wake up and see that the executive branch, the judicial branch, and almost every member of Congress has sold us up the river. Obama has continued every failed policy of Bush's and piled on top wars with FIVE more countries. The Supreme Court now recognizes corporations as persons with civil rights. Congress keeps raising the debt ceiling on an exponential debt that must be defaulted, or we will be just like Greece
Hmmm, looks like the U.S. has the highest military expenditures in the world, at just shy of a cool $700 billion for 2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
This is just one branch of our industrious government; No, we don't have a spending problem.
I agree that we spend too much on certain things. But those are issues of priority, not issues of spending per se.
Here's a table of public debt by country. We're # 1! We're # 1! Sorry, I get a little too passionate about these things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_debt
2010 estimate: we owe more than 9 trillion, more than all of the imploding Eurozone countries - at 62% of our GDP! True, we don't have the highest %GDP, but we have by far the highest absolute debt.
$29,158 per capita. That means you and I each owe $29 large each to the Feds.
Insanity!!
That is not the right data to look at. If you want to know if we spend a lot, look at how much we spend as a percent of GDP in comparison to other industrialized countries. We are on the low end:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/oecd_spending_graph.png
Yes, this graph ranks data by %GDP. Many of these countries are also on the verge of bankruptcy. Look at the graph - our spending was greater than our revenue, even in 2008. And our spending has accelerated since then.
Do you think this is sustainable?
I'm not concerned about debt. We have a fiat currency. If anything I think we need to spend more in both the short term (to generate demand) and in the long term (to provide a robust, modern welfare state that serves everybody).
You're not concerned about debt? Why not? Maybe we'll never pay back the principle but we have to service the debt on an on going basis. If interest rate go up just a few percent we're hosed. Debt is growing faster than GDP that can't and doesn't work. So, we're not at the top of the list, that's supposed to make me feel good about it? That just means that some other country implodes before we do. But guess what. When the first country implodes that just sets of the avalanche. Debt doesn't matter, you gotta stop reading Marx and Keynes.
No, I'm not concerned about debt. It's a much lower priority issue than high unemployment (which reduces economic growth more than any other factor). You have been misinformed about debt if you think it is an important problem that we currently face.
Yes someone is uninformed but its not me. The massive debt in the system, private, public and consumer is one of the MAJOR reasons for the high unemployment.
You are wrong. US debt is unproblematic. In fact, it's believed to be a safe haven for investors. Your beliefs are inconsistent with the empirical world.
Karl says it so much better than I ever could.
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?singlepost=2639034
See previous post.
(to provide a robust, modern welfare state that serves everybody).
Are you serious? Our modern welfare state will soon be stumbling along as a banana republic, courtesy of our fiat currency.