Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: Why Is Abby Martin Praising & Helping Jesse Ventura Promote His Libertarian-Capitalist-Idea of Abolishing The Income Tax...

Posted 8 months ago on March 19, 2014, 9:06 a.m. EST by KevinPotts (368)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Why Is Abby Martin Praising & Helping Jesse Ventura Promote His Libertarian-Capitalist-Idea of Abolishing The Income Tax & Transitioning To A National Sales Tax? [8:05-11:15] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fkVgfqziso#t=759

“I wanted to bring up another interesting idea that you’ve promoted, abolishing the income tax, transitioning to a national sales tax, really fascinating…”

“Jesse, it seems like a genius concept, I wonder why it hasn’t gained more traction, because it’s totally true. And then people who are in poverty would just not have to take half of their earnings, give it to the federal government to perpetuate the war machine. I mean they can just go out and spend what they want to contribute to society. It just sounds so, so, smart.”

?????????????????????

I used to admire Abby Martin & take her seriously as a "Revolutionary Journalists", she exposes a lot of corruption, but she’s wrong here & her misunderstanding of Jesse’s tax idea (and even of American poverty itself) is so, so Not “totally true”! It’s so, so Not true that it’s not even true at all...

  1. Under Jesse’s proposed sales tax plan, nobody, including those of us who live in poverty, would be allowed to pick and choose what we want to spend our given taxes on. And our so called “government” would still be able to misuse the people’s tax dollars as they always have, there would just be much less of it to spend, less money to spend on wars, etc., but also less money to spend on anything, including much needed social programs. Poor people (who don’t have any money to spend anyway) would only be given the irrelevant so called “choice” to not pay taxes at all by never spending over $10,000? How “never spending over $10,000” to keep from paying taxes is supposed to “uplift” those of us in poverty out of poverty is blatantly ridiculous.

  2. People who are in poverty (poor people) Do Not give half of our earnings to the federal government. Since when did the federal government start holding out half of our checks? They don’t, they only hold out a relatively small fraction and we get most of that back at the end of the year in our tax-refund. The current average U.S. sales tax rate is 9.60%.

  3. Poor people can’t just go out and spend whatever we want to contribute to society. It’s called “being poor” because there is nothing to spend. We can’t even afford an education or health care, many of us can’t even pay our rent, much less go on spending sprees.

  4. It’s true that Jesse’s sales tax plan would alleviate the burden of paying taxes for poor people who are already more than burdened from being exploited and poor, we would no longer have to pay that 9.60% average sales tax on everything we buy anymore (under $10,000/year), and we wouldn’t have to wait all year to get back what’s currently held out of our measly under-paid “paychecks”, But We Also Wouldn’t Have To "Worry" About Our Already Insufficient Social Safety Net Anymore Either! -IT WOULD VIRTUALLY DISAPPEAR! -BECAUSE THERE WOULD NO LONGER BE HARDLY ANY MONEY FOR IT! What Jesse’s sales tax plan also fails to address is The Massive Overwhelming Amounts of Exploited, Hoarded Wealth & Ridiculous Incomes of The Top 1% Which They Systematically Syphoned Away From The Working-Class Over The Past Four Decades –That’s OUR Money And WE DESERVE IT BACK. And to ignore that is not very “smart”. He proposes that through his tax plan the U. S. government would run on only about 12% of the GNP. Compare that to how much it runs on now and how much more we would have to work with if we ended war, drastically cut military spending and if the 1% finally paid up their share.

U.S. GNP 2011 -$15.3 Trillion ( 12% of $15.3 Trillion = $1.8 Trillion )

U.S. BUDGET 2011 - $3.8 Trillion

U.S. Average National Security Budget - $1.2 Trillion

Subtract That $1.2 Trillion From The 2011 Budget $3.8 Trillion = Approximately What We Spend on Everything Else $2.6 Trillion ( $800 Billion Dollars MORE THAN $1.8 Trillion )

Even if we cut the national security budget in half to $600 Billion, we would still need $3.2 Trillion to run our current government ( $2.6 Trillion + $600 Billion = $3.2 Trillion )

Even in such a brightly optimistic scenario of cutting the average national security budget in half, Jesse Ventura’s sales tax plan would Impose About $1.4 TRILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF AUSTERITY EVERY YEAR ON AMERICANS!

HE WOULD CUT OUR SOCIAL SAFETY NET IN HALF!

But would he do it while still living in Mexico?

http://www.tomdispatch.com/blog/175361

Kevin Potts ‏@KevinLynnPotts @RT_America @AbbyMartin @JesseVentura_

1/2 So The BILLION$&TRILLION$ Worth of HoardedWealth&ExploitedIncome of TheTop1% should not be taxed?

2/2 #WhatchYouTalkinBoutWillis? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgqOl4qlXS4

Kevin Potts ‏@KevinLynnPotts @RT_America @AbbyMartin @JesseVentura_

Firstly, It's Rich People Who Have ALMOST ALL OF THE MONEY AND ALMOST ALL OF THE INCOME, Therefore It’s Rich People Who Should Be Paying ALMOST ALL OF THE TAXES. Secondly, It’s Only Because of Tax Cuts And Loopholes That Rich People Don’t Already Pay Most of The Taxes As They Should And Would If Those Tax Cuts Ended And Those Loopholes Were Fixed. More Than $1 Trillion A Year In Tax Breaks http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/tax-code-break-by-break/ And They Would Pay Even MORE With A Taxation Percentage Scale Based on Income (The Richer You Are The More Percentage of Income You Pay). This In Itself Would Generate A-Whole-Hell-of-A-Lot-MORE-Revenue Than Any Sales Tax, As MOST of The So Called “Money” In This Country Exists In The Stolen/Exploited Ridiculously Outrageous Incomes (And Offshore Bank Accounts) of The Top 1%.

And Speaking of Generating A-Whole-Hell-of-A-Lot-MORE-Revenue, It’s Rich People (The Top 1%) Who Own ALMOST ALL OF THE LAND! They Have Basically Laid Claim To OUR Planet Earth And Said “This Is Mine!” A Simple LAND VALUE TAX Alone Would Generate MORE Tax Revenue Than Ever Before In the History of This Country…

‘End the 1 percent’s free ride: Taxing land would solve America’s biggest problems’ http://www.salon.com/2013/11/22/end_the_1_percents_free_ride_how_taxing_land_would_solve_americas_biggest_problems/

[Excerpts:] “At present, neither party advocates the tax code so elegant it can reduce inequality, mitigate poverty, stimulate productivity, prevent asset price bubbles, stem community-shredding gentrification and drain the distended Wall Street cabal of its ill-gotten gains – in just one tax.

Land value. If we want a real overhaul/simplification of the tax code, the way to do it is to tax land value. It might be the only tax we need. No sales tax. No income tax. No payroll tax to fill a Social Security trust fund. No corporate income tax that, as we can plainly see, offshores profits. No need to tax labor and industry at all. Just tax the stuff that humans had nothing to do with creating, and therefore have no basis to claim ownership over at all. You’ll find that almost all of it is “owned” by the fabled 1 percent.

And boy are they sucking a lot of money out of it. By far the most valuable asset form in the U.S. is real estate, and the majority of that is the value of the land, as distinct from the value of the human-made buildings. Economist Michael Hudson has assessed that the land value of New York City alone exceeds that of all of the plant and equipment in the entire country, combined. No one put any enterprise or cost into producing the land’s value – they simply bought it when it was cheap, sold it when it was dear, and waited for the check. “They” are the Finance, Insurance and Real Estate (FIRE) sector, and they capture 40 percent of the United States’ profits, despite the complete passivity of their profit-accumulation method.”

“Nothing could simplify and demystify the taxation experience for Americans like making sure that the vast majority of us who don’t own the resources, who don’t collect rent and capital gains, who have to work to get our paychecks, wouldn’t ever have to mark April 15 on the calendar again.

In contrast to its tiny tax base, the amount of revenue that can be raised by taxing the land is huge. Enough, for example, to support truly liberatory social spending, like a universal basic income, without risking inflation.”

“If this sounds like it’s a little too far outside the box, the solution is to collapse the box. Capitalism requires pretending that individuals’ private ownership of the land, minerals, gases and oils that nature provided is not a completely ludicrous idea. And as long as our political parties are both capitalist parties, there is little hope for a land value tax. But the day is coming, and soon, when it will no longer be so.” [End Excerpts]

On a final note, any discussion concerning taxation methods or reforming the tax code without even talking about how that revenue should be used (or not) to benefit The People (or not) dodges the bigger picture and side-steps the ultimate ends of taxation itself. Considering our so called “leaders” Handed Over Almost $1 Trillion Tax Dollars To The Same Criminals Who Tanked Our Economy & Continue To Spend OVER HALF of discretionary spending on Never-Ending Illegal WARS For PROFIT (which We never see) & The Militarized Empire/Occupation of Nearly THE ENTIRE PLANET, its more than safe to say that if We only reallocated that revenue (even within the current system that is already in place) to heal instead of harm, to create instead of destroy, to use our technology to our greatest advantage and eliminate poverty and imposed-scarcity, to educate and make this world a better, humane place for ALL; it’s safe to say That Would Do More Good For Humanity than any reformation of any tax code ever could. What We Do With What We Have Is What Ultimately Matters. And there is no reason why We The People Should not Be Collectively Deciding Directly On The Issues of What We Should Do With What WE Collectively Have. There is no reason Why WE Shouldn’t Have A REAL DEMOCRACY And A HUMANE SOLIDARTY In America (other than anti-democratic plutocracy and oligarchy; fascist corporate-interests and the anti-humane greed of an elite group of abusive power-addicted, manipulative crooks).

18 Comments

18 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 4 points by KevinPotts (368) 8 months ago

[[ Reposted From 'Occupy America' Real Time With Bill Maher Forum http://talk.hbo.com/t5/Real-Time-with-Bill-Maher/Occupy-America/m-p/338867#U338867 ]]

"Is he suggesting that the sales tax not be applied under that ($10,000) amount?"

Doug, yes, for poor people who fit the bracket we wouldn't have to pay taxes on anything up to $10,000/year, once we pass the $10,000 mark then taxes would only kick in on spending purchases over $150.00 (which would work the same from then on out as with everyone else), also no taxes on food and clothes purchases (up to $150.00). I marked the exact spot where they talked about it so you wouldn't have to watch the whole interview and video, it's only about 3 minutes [8:05-11:15]. It only sounds great on the surface without looking at the bigger picture, what they fail to mention or to even bring up is how shrinking our government to run on only about 12% of the GNP would affect social spending and austerity, that would hurt us poor people more than help. Paying taxes is not (very much overall) a poor people's problem, we get more out of it than what we put into it and rightly so. But we still don't get near enough as it is and shrinking our government means shrinking government spending, which would only inevitably make it worse within this corrupt system for those of us who depend on government spending (social programs) to survive. Abby Martin also helped promote Libertarian Gov. Gary Johnson's very similar sales tax pitch in his bid for the presidency last election, where The Elephant In The Room was also being ignored and I felt the need to chime in :-)

Capitalism (?) For President (?) The Political Ideology of The Libertarian Party According To Gary Johnson (And Why He’s Full of Shit) [Part 1] By Kevin Potts / Reality Check News http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-political-ideology-of-the-libertarian-party-ac/

[-] 1 points by nazihunter (215) 8 months ago

It's as simple as this, it would not work. PERIOD.

[-] 1 points by JGriff99mph (507) 8 months ago

How about we dont have a federal income tax or a national sales tax either?

[-] 4 points by flip (7587) 8 months ago

or roads or schools or sewerage systems and running water. no oversight of food or airlines except by corporate profit seekers - what re you thinking here?

[-] 3 points by JGriff99mph (507) 8 months ago

Who needs the feds for that? Why this constant desire to concentrate power into the hands of the most corrupted people on the planet?

I want as little concentrated power as possible. Last I know DC had nothing to do with my utilities.

They put Monsanto in charge of the food and the corporations in charge of the schools.

Are we incapable of figuring out how to educate our kids and provide food for our neighbors without the politicians in Congress?

Concentration of power usually leads to undesirable outcomes.

[-] 5 points by flip (7587) 8 months ago

first of all if you do not know the federal government role in your utilities you need to think about this a bit more. tva and hoover dam come to mind? you are correct about the mess in washington right now - you are really complaining about the lack of democracy here. our government is under the control of money and not people. it does not have to be that way. we agree on this but that is not the issue - should there be a federal income tax - I say yes. if we are talking about the real world here then the federal govt is the only democratic institution that can match the power of multinational corporations and regulate them. just look at how companies play one state against the next to get bigger and bigger tax breaks. the federal govt is the only institution that can even out the wealth disparities in the country.

[-] 2 points by JGriff99mph (507) 8 months ago

The more concentrated the power, the less democratic. The two are at direct odds with each other due to how humans behave when given said power.

All I can base that thought off of is the things I see, and the things I read about history.

[-] 5 points by flip (7587) 8 months ago

pretty weak response - concentrated power is a problem - we agree. now respond to the issues I raised. hoover dam and tva - corporate power etc. in your reading of history do you find anything about govt involvement in the erie canal and railroads. the promotion of economic activity is sometimes best done at the national level.

[-] 2 points by JGriff99mph (507) 8 months ago

I'm not saying that large infrastructure projects aren't a good idea, I'm saying that at the current state of centralized power things like that are not a priority, clearly.

If their power were limited to just that, it may be a priority again.

Do you know that the amount of the bailouts to Wall St over the last 5 years would be enough to put a $35k solar unit on every household in the country? And still have a trillion left over?

Edit: I used to love jumping off of the bridges into the canal. We would climb to the top of the bridges, jump right in. Tuck in your arms or you get lots of busted blood vessels :)

[-] 5 points by flip (7587) 8 months ago

I am sure we mostly agree on what should be done. and you are certainly right about decentralized power but by working the federal income tax ban side of the street you are playing into the hands of the ron paul lunatic fringe. we do need a federal govt to do many things - at least for the foreseeable future. and you have still not addressed my main points - a federal govt can counter corporate power - distribute resources to poor areas and create nation wide projects and programs when needed. a decentralized federal system or something on that order is the way to go - but why are we doing this - we are so far from any thought of that - we need to build the road as we travel.

[-] 4 points by KevinPotts (368) 8 months ago

"How about we dont have a federal income tax or a national sales tax either?" -JGriff99mph

How about we don't have food stamps? or Medicaid? or gov. housing? or Social Security? or any government help whatsoever? How about we let millions of poor families/women and children starve and freeze to death in the crumbling streets?

[-] 1 points by JGriff99mph (507) 8 months ago

Are we incapable of taking care of our neighbors on our own? Must we concentrate the power and create a war loving empire, murdering people all over the globe because we cannot be bothered by it? Instead choosing to spend an hour every four years to pick some corrupted loser to do it for us?

There's a million ways to do things. The amount of effort put in usually determines the benefits you get. Currently we are operating our country in the laziest way possible. And this is what we have gotten for it.

Elites love concentration of power. Consolidation is the times we are living in. Since 07 and Frank Dodd, banking has consolidated and few new banks opening. Same for all other industries. And regualtions are consolidating at the federal level as well, of course ignoring the major players and only hammering the little guys.

Power=corruption= bet on it.

We are intelligent and our technology is efficient enough that we got this on our own, in our own backyards.

If we continue to fund this bottomless pit of a war machine, the reality will spark its heads eventually on what it means to be the worlds reserve currency.

And the same people that caused the problem will be the loudest voices offering solutions.

Will we look to each other or to them?

[-] 2 points by KevinPotts (368) 8 months ago

“Are we incapable of taking care of our neighbors on our own?” - JGriff99mph

Considering HALF the population of America is In or Near Poverty… http://www.alternet.org/economy/overwhelming-evidence-half-america-or-near-poverty ...

… I would have to say the answer to that is NO (we are not capable), nearly HALF of us are not even capable of taking care of ourselves, much less each other because we’re fucking broke! –or just barely getting by! And much of the Other Half are either greedy “fuck you” Republicans or sucker “fuck you and myself, but I don’t really mean to” Neoliberal Democrats with Stockholm syndrome. Considering also Americans are born and raised into a self-centered, capitalist, winner-take-all society, are you honestly willing to Gamble The LIVES of MILLIONS of Poor People on the supposed charity and “goodwill” of THAT??? Good fucking luck because WE will surely the fuck need it! lol

Wait, WTF, Nearly HALF of Us Are Poor, MILLIONS of Us Are Suffering From Poverty This Very Moment And There’s Already OVER THREE MILLION Homeless Americans Right Now! In The Most Wealthiest Nation on Earth!; WHY Are We NOT Taking Care of Each Other Right Now??? Why Are Those Homeless Americans Homeless? Why Aren’t They ALL Given Homes? What’s Stopping ALL of This Supposed “Goodwill” and “Charity” & “Taking Care of Each Other” From Happening Already??

“Are we incapable of taking care of our neighbors on our own?” We’re not even taking care of each other with the insufficient safety net that’s already in place and you expect us to somehow “take care of each other” without it?

[-] 2 points by KevinPotts (368) 8 months ago

Problem: Our Fucktard Puppet Government Officials Spend Most of Our Tax-Dollars on War And Inhumane Bullshit

Solution: Replace Our Fucktard Puppet Government Officials With A-Real-People-Powered-Direct-Democracy And Stop Spending Our Tax-Dollars on War And Inhumane Bullshit

[-] 2 points by bullfrogma (448) 8 months ago

I would love to see some form of direct democracy boss the government, as it should. It'd get some positive solutions going and then in the end, if turns out to have a bad affect for some reason, it would have been a good experiment. We're not going to know for real unless we try something.

Another thing, while i agree to what you're saying, they've also tricked us into thinking we need all sorts of things, and we don't. I've been homeless for years and I feel sorry for people who live inside boxes. Sometimes things aren't totally comfortable but you know what, I love that about nature.

With forgotten magic she'll show you the universe, naked.

[-] -1 points by JGriff99mph (507) 8 months ago

Ok, so imagine this:

The federal government is no longer. Neither are state governments. It's all gone to hell...

Do we all sit aournd and starve to death? Or do we organize and put it together? I HAVE to believe its the later, because if its the first, then everything we are doing is utterly pointless because it means the future is either extinction or a bigger corporate shithole than we are already living in.

Neither of which is acceptable to me.

[Removed]

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by KevinPotts (368) 7 months ago

@RT_America @AbbyMartin @JesseVentura_

Hey Jesse! Let me know if you need help running your campaign! http://pic.twitter.com/RwkRLLm4Ls

[-] 0 points by KevinPotts (368) 7 months ago

Jesse Ventura Quotes Source:

Jesse Ventura on Welfare & Poverty http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Jesse_Ventura_Welfare_+_Poverty.htm

Jesse Ventura on Education http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Jesse_Ventura_Education.htm