Forum Post: What if we had a 20 hr workweek, and we built our own homes through a network
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 10, 2011, 10:38 a.m. EST by BlueRose
(1437)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Imagine what this society would look like:
Typical workweek is 20 hrs a week, and that is plenty production and income because technology is so good, and people don't consume so much utter crap.
People spend time building each other's homes, like Habitat for Humanity. You could buy a house if you wanted, of course. It is well-made, and you can pass it on to your children, maybe add a level to it each generation (or not, if the birth rates are low).
People value their free time over work, tend to consume and wear generic so they don't have work as much.
Food is provided for all, manual labor is looked upon with the same honor as banking and medical, etc.
Socialization often includes picking up litter, sweeping, planting trees, what have you with neighbors and friends.
Wouldn't people have tons of free time to then pursue education, volunteerism, curing cancer, socializing? Seems a lot of work goes to crap like buying $5 coffee, buying slave-labor bangles, and making the 1% rich. Can we somehow work for ourselves collectively, as the 99%?
(edit) Please, as many have suggested here, watch this video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1K9VpzmcSM&feature=related
We may have to go to a 20hr week anyway, because of the scarcity of jobs and the increased number of people seeking employment. See France's 35-hour week, Germany's partial employment.
Meanwhile, Thom Harmann (the Big Picture) recently discussed a 40-year-old Time magazine cover story predicting a society of leisure where we would only work 10 hours a week; the challenge? finding enough activity to fill our days!
"In the 1960's we were told that by the year 2000 - Americans would be living in a leisure society where our biggest problem would be how to manage all of our extra leisure time. So what went wrong?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1K9VpzmcSM&feature=related
what went wrong was that now that i realise my productivity is 10x more than it used to be, i decided i was going to work even longer to accrue more money to myself and retire early... turns out everyone thought the same way, and because everyone is working harder and longer, the benefits of working harder and longer disappeared
alot of productivity achieved through computers and machines displaced alot of jobs, and created many too, but it seems clear not enough to replace the displaced.
ME LIKEY!
Nothing went wrong. We decided we'd rather have a better standard of living than laying around. We don't? That's just ignorant. Life expectancy is longer, diseases thought impossible then are cured. Cars are saver, faster and more powerful. We have hundreds of channels, houses are bigger, food is more available.... and on and on.
True. At the same time, how can we value our longevity if we miss quality of life as a large number of us lack:
Does that show ignorance, as well?
Huh? Quality of life has expanded quite a lot. We're emerging from a big downturn. Unemployment simply isn't a chronic problem here. Education, healthcare... all the same... the "lacking" story just isn't there unless it's simply by your own poor choices. Sorry, just reality.
And if you want fewer poor people in America. Occupy the border and stop importing more.
this is useless... as if for us, the 99 percent, choices made much of a difference.
That's silly. I don't think what's happened to me in my life is independent of my choices. Outcomes aren't random; choices matter. If you have kids, encourage one to get knocked up and quit school. Encourage the other to have some discipline and graduate college. Then see what happens.
sure, stay out of trouble, go to college, get into debt, can't find a job. some choices!
If you can't figure out how choices connect to a better life, I'm not surprised in your difficulty at finding it.
There's another quality that helps... have at least a shred of persistence.
People believing nonsense from a tyranical government like that is a good start...
There are so many people who bring their work home with them these days. They work 50 hours at the office and then bring the laptop home to work another 20 plus hours. Maybe if we simply limited the number of hours people can work to the basic 40 hours, and no more, there would be enough jobs to go around for everyone.
http://www.ic.org/
There are all kinds of different smaller communities with different goals and reasons for existence. Some are focused on living without indoor plumbing and working towards self sufficiency. Some have a goal of not even working outside of the community. You can leave at any time. Some have a requirement of not holding x amount in debt.
If things don't drastically change very soon then I see many more of these springing up simply because people are forced to. That doesn't mean that there is 20 hours of labor. You might put in 20 hours of labor during this time of year and 60 hours at another time of year-based on the needs and intention of the community. And if someone is the type of individual that can get into that, it is wonderful. I think it takes a lot of thought to get into it because the decisions that are made in the immediate are going to have long term consequences.
Pursuing education takes money. Curing cancer takes money. There is a give and take in everything. The key is figuring out what one is willing to give up not just now but 40-50 years down the road. Some places ARE focusing on that-building for ageing in place.
Sounds like a wonderful life to me.
First off, if we ever want to get to full employment again, we might actually have to start dividing up the labor, absolutely. Secondly, a lot of labor is completely pointless, like insurance industries and such, and could be eliminated. Thirdly, we will never be able to think about these kinds of things until housing is all paid for and we are able to think freely for a while and not worry about the next check coming in. Until then, (generations perhaps, if we don't all end up homeless anyway because no one will be able to pay for housing with falling wages), we will have to take whatever comes along. There was a video on TED.com that I unfortunately can't find, but which describes exactly the fact that we ALL should be looking to automate our lives in every way so that we can go on permanent vacations. God bless technology! Bring on the future!
Manual labor is far more honorable than banking, imo. However, the primary reason for the job shortage in this country is outsourcing/ offshoring. http://economyincrisis.org/content/trade-with-china-proves-costly-for-u-s
If we had a 20 hour work week I would never complete the work I need to get done each week. I need to put in more than 40 to succeed.
Many people, especially those with satisfying, meaningful careers, would work more. Fine with me. I want basic needs for those with crap jobs to be met with 20 hours of work. Did you watch the video? My grandfather saved enough money doing a regular job to buy a house with cash within a few years, not unusual. My grandmother did not work, they had a nice house, 3 kids were taken care of. Those days are OVER, and we should have improved since then!
sure there are plenty of communal living situations like you describe. google "intentional community" all kinds of small scale models of communal living where people only work 20 hours a week, the problem is you don't chose what profession you are in, you must work in the garden and all the other stuff it takes to run a communal living situation, if you are happy there then it would work for you.
What if we want to work more to get ahead?
Fine with me! I am mostly concerned about a roof and food for everyone, along with free time for those who really want and need it.
Go on welfare and collect food stamps. You can then qualify for medicaid and get more money per child.
Food and roof, there ya go. I hear those are great communities to live in too :)
What if I'm a homeless vet with no children? How would I qualify?
Simple. You go to whatever the services center in your area is, they give you a cot in a room, and food stamps. You have to enroll in job seeking programs, more than likely. If time goes by and you still dont have one, they put you on the roll. Go to the VA for medical care, its free.
Its not hard.
What if I'm a homeless nurse with no kids?
If you are a homeless nurse, same thing. Go to the homeless shelter, they sign you up, give you a cot, get you on the food stamps, and enroll you in medicaid. Enter you into a job program, if you cant find one, they put you on hte governemnt cheese.
Do you realize the shelters are full? The average homeless person is age 7. There are school bus stops at makeshift camps to pick up the kids in Texas. The food pantries are empty. People check into the emergency room just to get a sandwich, ok?
I know, Ive been in the position before, its not good. But when you are there, you will find that A) many are fine with their life like that B) drug and alchohol abuse is rampant.
Im just saying that we have a welfare system, the ultimate in doing nothing and everyone pays for it. Its not pleasant, people arent happy, and its full of corruption.
Be careful what you ask for...
Working 20 hours a week is an utopian concept, just below consuming as an occupation.
We've a great many areas that a 20 hour week would actually grind just about everything in this nation to a halt.
Transportation. Most people don't think about transportation as something other than a means to get from point A to point B...yet it's what keeps America in food, jobs, homes...It takes a minimum of 56 hours to transport goods by truck and trailer from the West Coast to the East Coast, and that does not include the time it takes to load or unload the trailer or container, it takes approximately the same amount of travel time by train, and the loading time and unloading time is longer for box or refrigerated cars.
Nurses working 20 hour week would be rotating in and out so quickly they wouldn't become familiar with patients or patients with them. Home health care, including group homes for the mentally disabled wouldn't work properly, as the clients need familiarity to function at their personal best.
The logistics of the proposal simply won't work in a large portion of our industries.
Addressing the housing issue you presented, there is a way that it might be workable. Four housing lots of 75X150 feet can be placed within one acre of land. So therefore four people/couples/families can cooperatively purchase that one acre. Depending on local ordinances and building codes each can either hook into an existing system (city or county) for water and sewage or (again checking local building codes) place either a communal or individual systems for themselves.
I'm going to use one of my sons in law for this next bit...
Phil and my daughter tear down buildings for hire, sometimes they do some carpentry, even erect structures. When they tear down a building, house, garage, barn, even mobile homes, they separate and store salvaged materials.
In this manner they acquire items for resale and materials with which to build.
Phil also scavenges from businesses. He visited a granite cutting factory and saw the waste they couldn't use and asked what they did with it, as a result he has access to all the granite he can use, some of the pieces are fairly large but not of the quality or size needed for the order the factory has.
Phil has built a work shop, garage, barn, storage shed, and a house all from pre-used materials which cost him nothing but his labor, time and cost of transportation.
This house has granite floors, counter tops, his walkway is granite chips that he set in patterns. He could have propane or electric heat, but chooses to utilize wood instead, they live on a forested piece of land.
He sells his excess pre-used products, water heaters, furnaces, windows, doors, trusses, wiring (lengths of over 25 feet and code acceptable in his area), light fixtures, electrical junction boxes, circuit boxes, insulation, 2x4's and 2x6's, heating units and sometimes air conditioners...for much less than any store could, plus he is always adding another building to store these products.
I'd think a crew of four or eight if you are couples could find structures to dismantle and do the dismantling in a reasonable amount of time, and with a bit of skill and a lot of imagination manage to build four houses with all the amenities.
Imagination, a few people willing to work collectively for everyone's benefit and you not only can build a home, you can create a business and a partnership.
There is work and then there is work. Motivation is key. If you enjoy what you do, think it is meaningful, then you do it, and become so passionate that you forget to take a vacation or even ask for a raise. On the other end, if work solely means drudgery, having to do it just because you need to pay the bills (increasingly so, because of high college tuition, health insurance, etc.) while ensuring that CEOs get a salary that's 300 percent higher than yours, if you feel devalued, dispossessed, exploited, mistreated, disrespected, and so on and so forth, you might want to imagine less of it, say, 20 hours a week?
Exactly. Some who love their professions may choose to work 60 hours a week.
And society will place the highest value on the hardest workers. You need only look as far as your closest occupation.
The ones who put in the most work are the ones who generally have the most pull.
Weird, my experience is the complete opposite. The ones who do the least work get payed the most.
Ha I know right!
aHAaha ahahaha!!!!!!!
Glad you find that so funny? What city are you from, your profile doesnt say. HAve you even ever been to a GA? Spoken at one?
They sound like workaholics, a disease I wish I had. It's lovely to hear a success story. I'm proud of them also.
I think that was what Greece had. They retired at 52 and lots of vacation. I do not think any one in Greece came close to curing cancer, but they enjoyed the lifestyle until they ran out of other peoples money to spend.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/ "The biggest trouble spot isn’t Greece, it’s Spain — which was running budget surpluses just a few years ago."
HEY GREAT IDEA,
How about you Move to France and in 2 years come back and give us a report on how well you and they are doing :)
it IS a similar work ethic, me Personally, I love what I do and can't stop after 4 hours
Good idea, impractical though.
Utopian nonsense.
[Removed]
I see - so the objective is to work Less hahaha! I knew it - movement of laziness looking for a handout for doing nothing. or - excuse me - working 20 hrs a week. Now you know why you are a bunch of losers - If you want to work for yourself - why do you need the other 99% ? Answer - because you want to shirk responsibility because you are LAZY!
It is not laziness. It is a desire to pursue other things in this life other than making profit for the 1%. I want to read some books, rescue some stray animals, feed homeless, paint, help children, think about world problems, register people to vote. I do not have the luxury to do those things now. And why do other countries have 35 hour workweeks, compared to USA's 40, and we get much less time off? Something ain't right.
Make sure you watch this video, would love to hear how you fit the word "lazy" into your reply to it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1K9VpzmcSM&feature=related
so you want to pursue other things in life & have other people subsidize you. So the doctor making 350K working 60 hrs a week (is a 1% by the way) should pay higher taxes so you can "pursue" your interests? If you like the other countries full of lazy people who are going broke faster than us by the way - go move there. People came here to be free from people like you.
Should those who inherited wealth work? Would you call them lazy if they didn't work?
your talking about a very small minority of people who's estates are taxed @ 50% already. If a rich person want to leave their estate to some loser kid who doesnt want to work thats their problem. Half their estate goes to the govt regardless.
And the word "LAZY" didn't come out of your mouth! But I see "loser" did. What if that person is philanthropic, volunteers time?
sorry - I used the word loser instead. yea - rich people have lazy kids too. They can afford to be lazy. I am not rich - I cant afford to be lazy. I could care less that some rich people can. It has no bearing on my life.
So you only care that someone makes someone else rich, you don't seem to give any credence to volunteerism. I got you, thaaanks.
I dont care about how much people leave their children when they die - no. If someone wants to volunteer - more power to them.
But I said I wanted to volunteer, you called me lazy, as you are so indoctrinated, you cannot think critically, you have knee-jerk, parroted responses. Sad.
you have to volunteer on your own time. you cant expect people to subsidize you to volunteer geeeezzzz! I work more - so you can volunteer? that's insane ! What if everyone wanted to volunteer? If I am going to be subsidised - who wouldnt want to be a professional volunteer lol! you are kidding right !?
Neither I nor the rich person was producing anything while volunteering.
Iv'e never worked more than 20 hours a week. Nothing forces you to work 40. We can all work as much as we want.
As for passing our homes to our children, the problem is that people move around a lot in modern day north America. In countries like Indonesia this is still quite normal.
Needing food and shelter forces 40 a hr work week. Many cannot afford both even when working 40 hrs! OK, so we can sell our homes, be free to move, but the point is, let the 99% benefit more directly from their labor, instead of just the 1%. Think about it, haven't you done enough labor in your life to have built a modest house for yourself, your family, your heirs? Housing should be cheap.
If you want the so-called 99% to benefit from their labor, perhaps you should encourage those in the 0-40th percentiles to actually do some...rather than just live off of everyone else's labor....
If everyone gets food for free, without effort what is to motivate people to work in the first place...you just don't get it...
People are devalued, ridiculed, and belittled when they do "lowly" labor. It is a myth that all these people want to live off others. People want to do MEANINGFUL work, not telemarketing crap all day long, or hard selling products to old ladies. People want to work, many volunteer rescuing animals, helping the poor, but they don't get paid. If society treated workers with respect, you would see many people choose to pick up a broom and sweep the streets on their own if they didn't have to worry about food.
yeah...hardly..people that want to work, work....you are making excuses for those who are already quite adept at making excuses for themselves...
Like I said, I never worked more than 20 hours a week. I have always had a shelter and food. I don't think housing should necessarily be cheap. The price should be based on offer and demand. Workers have to be paid, materials have to be harvested, etc... There is a competition in the world of construction which creates a natural market. I don't see much of a problem, especially in America where people have some of the best houses in the world. You should come to Indonesia. People only have one day off a week here, and their houses are not as good as yours. You have it pretty good.
If you are male, subtract 30% off your wages. Can you still pay your bills?
Yes. I don't spend all the money I earn on things I cannot afford because I know that there are cycles of good times and bad.
But you do understand that some people have zero, or negative expendable income, right?
Yeah, so? I don't have a problem helping people that have fallen on hard times (temporarily) or those who cannot physically support themselves. But should I be forced to take away from my family to help those like you that want a good life with no effort on their part?
I was always able to pay my bills. Of course. If I couldn't, I would work more. I support my wife and three dogs. All on my one job. The problem is most people care about money more then time. I don't. Many people work for minimum wage and are able to make ends meet. Then, some people make a lot more per hour but still work long hours. I make a lot of money in one hour because I have good computer programming skills. I work as a team leader. Since I have a good wage, I feel like 20 yours is enough. I'd rather work less and have more time to read.
Do you want to know the truth. With one month of work, 20 hours a week, I am able to pay the rent for my four bedroom house and all the food for myself, my wife, and my three dogs for 1 year. No joke. And, I know a lot of other people doing it.
Instead of saying Indonesia has it worse, find out how USA and the world can have it better. Also, consider others besides yourself, such as minority females making minimum wage due to corporatocratic forces.
Nothing wrong with putting things into perspective. We are a fortunate nation.
What does working 20 hours a week instead of 40 have to do with females making minimum wage due to corporate forces? There would still be minimum wage if the working hours of a week were 20 instead of 40. The official work week is now 35 hours in Canada, and there is still minimum wage. Are you talking about a decrease in work hours, or something entirely different?
This society sounds like any of about half a dozen in Europe, and look where they are. If I had a twenty hour work week, I would have enough to do on my homestead without worrying about everyone else.
Debt slave, stop dreaming. That's not your station in life.
That's precisely TH's take on this. Wrong prediction!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1K9VpzmcSM&feature=related
Everyone stop and watch the video! Worth your time!
Thanks for the bump!
Who's TH? I lived in a co-op in college. I realized something in that experience. A certain clique will inevitably attempt to gain control and use the collective wealth to their own ends. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. No matter what economic system you live under.
I agree with you re the collective wealth. Please watch the video above and see who TH is, and how much he agrees with your statement (the price of freedom is eternal vigilance).
Ahhh the Opium is really giving you some fabulous pipe dreams. Wake up. I sure wish everyone had to disclose their age on here, because I sometimes think a high school civics teacher may have assigned posting on this forum for homework.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-3hZsXrxaI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mkRFCtl2MI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SQqjTxI3vc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/
http://blog.thezeitgeistmovement.com/
http://www.thevenusproject.com/
[Deleted]
I do not benefit from my labor, I have to choose between rent and food. The 1% is benefiting from my labor, not me.
mmkay, then you need a better job, or a side job. If your working more than this 20 hr figure, and you're not cutting it, that's kinda on you. This is why the bulk of these people are mad. They have shitty jobs and can't figure a way out. 20 hours a week won't do shit. Is that number what you work?? Not bashing, it just seems like a low number. 4 hrs a day. for everything. Does that also include emergency services too (don't get hurt or burn anything down between 4pm and 12 pm the next day!!)?? Cause you gotta think about that. Energy also. News outlets, Airlines, get it?? There's a reason things got so good. It was through people working over time. You and your landlord (your local 1%) benefit from your labor. You still have a place to sleep and food, right?? A lot of people don't and I'm not talking these lazy assholes sitting in a park out of their own free will while they lose what you still have. I don't make shit, but I'm at least a little satisfied that I have a job while a bunch of others don't.
Vicious circle. Why have most other Americans escaped from that? You have also chosen between spending money on rent and food by compromising dollars with using the internet. How many layers of time and money does it take for you to post comments? Apparently this is more important than food and shelter, yes?
I will not work for cigarette companies, or any unethical company. I am unemployed, I prefer to occupy my time building a better planet. Who are you, Newt Gingrich? Get out of here, criticizing me being on the internet. It is PITTANCE in the grand scheme of things. So I'm losing a few bucks an hour in productivity. Work is hardly worth it nowadays. PAY ME a decent wage, give me an ethical job, and I'll get off the internet.
Plus, self-discovery is priceless.
Yes, build a better planet on the backs of people who pay taxes and by proxy fund your laziness. Pathetic. When the money runs out you won't be posting here either. The irony....unemployed, can't pay food or rent, yet able to post on the internet. You HAVE no productivity to lose because you aren't producing!
Cleaning houses is ethical. Making crafts is ethical. You could even start your own business doing either of those things.
And no, I am not Newt Gingrich. I am Rush Limbaugh.
I think handicraftspeople and artists SHOULD get more support and recognition, and people should stop buying cookie-cutter Betty Boop, etc. The tastes of Americans is they will buy Chinese mass-production over artistry, sadly. I have done quite a lot of crafts, and been told to "get a real job" by my fellow Americans. Respect the artists and laborers.
Wreck the planet with horrible industries, work blindly without ethics? Ok for you, not for me.
I have a job, I am an internet forum artist....................................................... ........................................................ ....................................................... .................................................................. ..435u8nv9823y4b 7v8tow4ybcunvgth9 o4y5382748y0vnych uorihkmjlngsfdk!!!!!!!!!
Want more kool-aid?
The non-chemically kind made with non-Monsanto real fruit with no added sugar, yes please.
No, my friend...people like you, the ones who say (or more aptly..demand) GIVE Me a decent wage, GIVE me a job, GIVE me healthcare, GIVE me education...THEN I'll get to work....if YOU set up all the dominoes for me, I'll push them over....NEVER get to work...there is ALWAYS something more YOU "need" before you can get to work.....
If you want to stay unemployed, then do so..but accept the responsibility and limitations of that...WE are tired of paying for your lazy, no good, worthless ass...got it? and when you come to us and say "I need" we will spin you around and give you a good kick in your fat ass and say.."Fine....GO EARN"
I have worked for twenty years for 30% less than what I should have made. I was disinherited from property because it is not "biblical" to leave women property according to my family. I am not lazy.
always a victim, huh? why do you suppose you were worth 30% more? because you heard such things on the news from the excuse advocates?
Can you say anything other than what the 1% has trained you to parrot? I pull the string and you say about 3 different phrases.
hardly...and this false dichotomy of 1%-99% is just simple foolishness
"PAY ME a decent wage, give me an ethical job, and I'll get off the internet. " What is your skill set?
My skill set is not valued by the 1%
the so-called 1% aren't the nations consumers...my guess is your skill set isn't valued by anyone...
Do you think the only people that hire are the 1%-ers?
Companies want people who follow orders and have a blind eye to corruption. Been doing for 20 years, ok? At some point, the hirees just don't want to hire someone who would hold them accountable for not doing their job.
That is BS. No company I ever worked for was corrupt and mine certainly isn't. But follow orders? Well yeah! Even when you own your own business, you follow orders from your customers. What line of work were you in?
I used the word corruption, but sometimes wrongdoing is a bit more subtle, such as using high-pressure sales tactics.
Thanks for your reply. Could you tell me what company you work for, or one you worked for in the past?
All were small companies. The biggest had 20 employees. All were merit based pay scales... as it should be.
As stated below, you choose to be unemployed. You are benefiting from the 53% and I'm tired of paying your bills.
The problem with thinking on an individual basis like that, is it can not work for everyone. And if i doesn't work for everyone then it doesn't work.