Forum Post: Washington Post: U.S. is "losing the tolerance for dissent, irreverence & disrespect for authorities that made country great."
Posted 11 years ago on Jan. 13, 2013, 10:32 p.m. EST by therising
(6643)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
See this link for article on Aaron Swartz from Washington Post - Headline "American Hero": http://wapo.st/WPFdtL . The article summary says: "The bullying prosecution of Aaron Swartz might be a sign that we're losing the tolerance for dissent, irreverence, and disrespect for authorities that made this country great.."
Also please visit:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-the-assassination-of-martin-luther-king-jr-mat/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/jul/03/fbi-and-ernest-hemingway (read the whole way through. . .)
AND
http://occupywallst.org/forum/police-dhs-working-for-with-banks-to-target-neutra/
This is serious stuff. What Americans don't realize is that by living in constant fear they have actually created an environment in which they have more reason to fear.
I agree completely. It's so frustrating to see people draw exactly the wrong conclusions from events and trends. For example: corporatists love that many middle class folks in America have bought the line that "less regulation" and "smaller government" is what we need to prevent things like the 2008 financial crisis. It pisses me off to know end that many Americans buy that con and fall in that trap....the trap of "hating that ol government", not realizing that a government of the people and by the people could have easily prevented that crisis by doing the 8 things listed here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-could-do-this-the-easy-way-or-the-hard-way/
CONGRESS PASS HR 1489 ("RETURN TO PRUDENT BANKING ACT"http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h112-1489 ). THIS REINSTATES MANY PROVISIONS OF THE GLASS-STEAGALL ACT that were repealed in the 90's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass–Steagall_Act . Most economists believe the repeal of this act directly contributed to the severity of the financial crisis of 2007–2011.
CONGRESS USE ITS AUTHORITY AND OVERSIGHT TO ENSURE APPROPRIATE FEDERAL AGENCIES FULLY INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE THE WALL STREET CRIMINALS who clearly broke the law and helped cause the 2008 financial crisis
CONGRESS ENACT LEGISLATION TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY BY REVERSING THE EFFECTS OF THE CITIZENS UNITED SUPREME COURT DECISION which essentially said corporations can spend as much as they want on elections. This law should also restore the "Fairness Doctrine".
CONGRESS PASS a revised version of THE BUFFETT RULE ON FAIR TAXATION SO THE RICH AND CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE & CLOSE CORPORATE TAX LOOP HOLES AND ENACT A PROHIBITION ON HIDING FUNDS OFF SHORE.
CONGRESS COMPLETELY REVAMP THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION and staff it FULLY at all levels with proven professionals who get the job done protecting the integrity of the marketplace so citizens and investors are both protected.
CONGRESS PASS SPECIFIC AND EFFECTIVE LAWS LIMITING THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS AND ELIMINATING THE PRACTICE OF LOBBYISTS (including ALEC) WRITING LEGISLATION THAT ENDS UP ON THE FLOOR OF STATE LEGISLATURES AND CONGRESS.
CONGRESS PASS "Revolving Door" LEGISLATION ELIMINATING THE ABILITY OF FORMER GOVERNMENT REGULATORS TO GO TO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS THAT THEY ONCE REGULATED. So, you don't get to work at the FDA for five years playing softball with Pfizer and then go to work for Pfizer making $195,000 a year.
CONGRESS PASS LEGISLATION ELIMINATING "PERSONHOOD" LEGAL STATUS FOR CORPORATIONS. The film "The Corporation" has a great section on how corporations won "personhood status". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SuUzmqBewg . Fast-forward to 2:20.
Exactly. And, when we get off message here, they laugh. They win. It is rather sad to look at that list and realize how little has changed. 5 years after the Global Financial Crisis and not one bankster has gone to jail or even been indicted, Glass-Steagall is barely discussed by Obama. Oh yes, taxes went up meagerly on the wealthy, but don't forget the "payroll tax" cut for the masses was allowed to expire and so everyone's taxes went up, etc. etc. The joke is on us. We need to push for much bigger change to bring about any of this stuff.
Bill Moyers explains how last week’s fiscal cliff deal gave tens of billions in tax breaks to Wall Street and corporations - what even the Wall Street Journal calls a “crony capitalist blowout.” - http://www.nationofchange.org/bill-moyers-essay-crony-capitalist-blowout-1358002477 . Never Give Up Occupying The Real Issues! Occupy Wall Street because they've been occupying us forever! Solidarity.
Excellent - TWEETED :
Bill Moyers Essay: The ‘Crony Capitalist Blowout’ | NationofChange http://www.nationofchange.org/bill-moyers-essay-crony-capitalist-blowout-1358002477 via @nationofchange PEOPLE STAND-UP SPEAK-OUT
Thanks & http://www.nationofchange.org/going-efforts-occupy-1358007353 - Solidarity @ OWS :)
In compliment : From People for the American Way.
Also - TWEETED In compliment.
On-going Efforts of Occupy | NationofChange http://www.nationofchange.org/going-efforts-occupy-1358007353 via @nationofchange FOOD4THOUGHT/ACTION - STAND-UP USA
Solidarity, A4C! Occupy Wall Street! Thanks for the great link. We must continue to focus on these matters since TPTB think this is all a joke.
This site and people like you are a thorn in the side of TPTB, which is why this site and posters like you are being targeted - http://www.nationofchange.org/going-efforts-occupy-1358007353 - Never Give Up! Occupy Wall Street - or meekly accept our enslavement for ever! Solidarity to you and all your efforts.
We have to be vigilant in how we vote and in what threads we bump. We have to be all over these s-t-heads that come on here to try and drag us down. This movement is far too important and bigger than all of us to let a bunch of shills get in our way. No enslavement!
And, thanks for that great article.
OWS is far more important than most people realise and the Banks and Corporations get what could happen IF the OWS meme takes real hold in this country - which is exactly why they and their 'Public Relations' stooges will act to undermine OWS - but every day, in every way - OWS is planting good seeds for a real change in America.
From the article - ' Occupy Wall Street is committed to taking down major banks and massive, multination corporations and revealing that the role of Wall Street is causing this nation to remain in the greatest recession that these generations have seen. As a way of disclosing “an unfair global economy,” Occupy Wall Street has various campaigns and ongoing actions taking place throughout the U.S.'
Never Give Up! Go Occupy! Solidarity Against Enslavement!
Actually many are interested in building new systems of economy. It is a process and a done deal. Giving up would be death and I know personally were that an option I would not be writing this. SOLIDARITY in FREEDOM...
Solidarity In Freedom :) & Information for progressive change - http://www.nationofchange.org/behind-nra-s-money-gun-lobby-deepens-financial-ties-12-billion-firearms-industry-1358354431 Never Give Up!
Damn right. Time for us to start speaking out loud announcing that the emperor has no clothes. That and nonviolent direct action are our prime tools for change.
WE HAVE THE POWER (using direct action and web in tandem): http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-dont-see-the-power-we-have-in-our-hands-to-tran/
The Emperor and his Clothes: HOW ONE PERSON RAISING THEIR VOICE TO SPEAK THE TRUTH CAN MAKE A REAL DIFFERENCE -- the tenor of the times--- http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-have-the-power-to-turn-this-world-around-this-o/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/like-the-sun-through-the-morning-clouds-why-there-/
http://sue-adams.hubpages.com/hub/iceland-shows-how-to-solve-economic-crisis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6rAgHcuYtE
http://occupywallst.org/forum/new-view-why-gun-control-peace-treaties-campaign-f/
Well said and thanks for the great links.
Cheers :)
Losing???
When did we actually have it?
Those 3 days in 1951?
Just vote Democrat or Republican and everything will be alright.
Dont do anything in between those two years either. Just reserve about an hour once very two years, and the rest will take care of itself.
I wonder how many people in the U.S. think that way. What percentage? Or do some believe the corollary - that nothing will be ok and it doesn't matter what they do. They feel powerless because they are isolated. Time to unite and win.
Well, over half the nation doesnt even do that. And who knows how many felons are not allowed to vote no matter what they do.
That is a huge penalty,
I also see much of MSM [ but not MSNBC ] talk about lack of co-operation - as if both sides are equally at fault for gridlock .
And the lemmings believe this bs
The 1% wants us to succumb to nihilism because then we give up and just go shopping. They're losing their battle though. The cat is out of the bag and Americans are waking up to what's really going on.
http://falseflagkerncounty.blogspot.com/
American Hero indeed.
History and this country, are filled with imbeciles in law enforcement, who have and are, willing to slaughter fellow citizens, if ordered to do so. Even babies and elderly. That is a problem. The solution is to educate, those individuals, of the inherent wrong, in following wrong orders.
...Revolutionary new technologies and ideas don’t come from people with a reverence for following the rules. They come from iconoclasts like Jobs, Wozniak, and Swartz. It’s a bad idea to lock them up and throw away the key...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/01/12/aaron-swartz-american-hero/?wpmk=MK0000200
We need to reverse this trend in the US - We need to enclurage dissent. We need to remember that stagnation is the beginning of rot.
It is not wrong to dissent when the government is wrong.
Why can people not see this and understand that fact - My God this was what our country was founded on - rightful dissent.
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it."
Per Chris Hedges, some have become confused as to who the true patriots are. See this extraordinary exchange in interview on national news: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAhHPIuTQ5k&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Frustrated? Imagine the lackey of corruption, forced to read through these posts, confronted with information your superiors can never debunk.
What a great chance to educate those who have assumed the role of enemy to the 99%.
Reversing this trend and reinstating dissent, free speech and the democratic process requires the conscious activity of every person aware of the consequence of the lack of any of the above. That includes those members of law enforcement, military and any politicians that still retain a conscience.
The risk outweighs lack of action.
I completely agree
I think there are more and more agreeing each day.
A virtuous cycle. . .
Very true! And many Leftians are just as intolerant as the Rightians they despise.
Intolerance is a symptom of a dying mind -- a mind that has no desire to learn from others or even deal with others, a mind that has become afraid to grow and play, a mind that clings desperately to some absurd religious or ideological dogma, reality be damned.
Tolerance does not require us to surrender our principles and our preferences. It is not a passive virtue. It is not resignation or capitulation. Just the opposite: Tolerance is motivated by a desire to ENGAGE and EDUCATE the other person. Engagement begins with a willingness to accept the other person's existence. Tolerance is nourished by faith that the other person will eventually learn from his mistakes.
Our materialistic culture kills the mind, kills faith, kills our desire to dialogue, engage and play. The result is intolerance: Obey or die.
There is a fundamental [ pardon the pun ] difference between right and left:
And this IS A GENERALIZATION - which is not always correct
Most people on the right want everyone to live & believe as they do
a few examples :
teaching MY religion in public school,
only MY kind will get into heaven,
a person - not of my color cannot be president,
YOU cannot have an abortion
Most people on the left believe YOU should be able to do or believe what YOU want if it does not hurt or affect other people.
Thank you for your response, mideast. You've given me something to consider.
I have no desire to impose my way of life on others. As we used to say in the South, "Live and let live". Any attempt to force others to subscribe to our worldview produces resistance and retrenchment -- as the 100-year-long Reconstruction period demonstrates.
In response to your comment, one could argue that much of what "The Left" wants taught in public school is also a kind of "religion" -- a sex-obsessed value-free ideology that leaves no room for personal privacy.
"The Left" too believes in "heaven" and "hell" -- the heaven of political correctness and the hell of pariah status. If you conform to intellectual fashions, however mindless, you're a saint. If you question or deviate from the party line -- the party line on Syria, for example -- you're a devil.
Where "The Right" says you cannot have an abortion, "The Left" says you cannot own a gun. Which is worse? Well, a gun MAY kill somebody, or it may be used in self-defense to prevent killing. Abortion definitely kills something alive, and thus undermines our reverence for life.
"The Left" is very intolerant of information that calls its idolatry into question. I'm thinking of the 1990s, for example, when Leftians idolized Clinton. When Rightians pointed to the massacre Clinton perpetrated at Waco, or the cover-up at Oklahoma City or the drug operation at Mena, Arkansas or Clinton's military aggression against Yugoslavia -- aggression that set the precedent for Bush's attack on Iraq -- Rightians were ridiculed into silence.
Comparing "Left" and "Right" generally leads to an endless argument, so it's not terribly productive. But the comparison does show that both sides have lots of room for improvement -- and that's the point.
I'm holding a mirror up to "The Left". A mirror is not something we need to be afraid of.
as the 100-year-long Reconstruction period demonstrates.
I believe the reconstruction is a primary source of today's racism
"The Left" wants taught in public school is also a kind of "religion" -- a sex-obsessed value-free ideology that leaves no room for personal privacy.
I don't see sex-obsessed schools; values should come from home & religion [ Amish values incl de no electricity ]
personal privacy???
"The Left" too believes in "heaven" and "hell" -- the heaven of political correctness and the hell of pariah status.
this is a very strange stretch
the party line on Syria, for example -- you're a devil
I favor treating Syria like we treated Libya - not the OWS party line
Where "The Right" says you cannot have an abortion, "The Left" says you cannot own a gun.
I have never heard ANYONE say you cannot own a gun
Abortion definitely kills something alive, and thus undermines our reverence for life.
So if I have a cancerous alive kidney surgically removed that undermines our reverence for life? Please don't tell me my 12 year old daughter cannot abort her rapist's fetus
"The Left" is very intolerant of information that calls its idolatry into question. I'm thinking of the 1990s, for example, when Leftians idolized Clinton.
I don't idolize Clinton - he did some good things & some bad
I think you will find very few people who like everything he did.
I'm holding a mirror up to "The Left". A mirror is not something we need to be afraid of.
NO FEAR - JUST LOOKING FOR TRUTH
Thanks again, for your articulate response.
My point is that both ends of our little one-dimensional universe have room for improvement. I'm not so much defending the Right as I am looking for a way to counter self-righteousness and bring Right and Left together.
Abortion /// I think we should have control over our own bodies. We should have the right to decide what we ingest and the right to decide the fate of the fetus, and the government should stay out of the bedroom. At the same time, I believe that we should attempt to respect living creatures, and the fetus is a living creature. I think Leftians are mistaken when they treat the fetus as the moral equivalent of a tumor. Women should have the right to abort, just as they should have the right to jump off a bridge, but I'd like to see the use of this right discouraged, just as we discourage cigarette use.
Guns /// I'm not a fan of guns, but who am I to deny somebody the right to defend themselves? Most Leftians put the government above the individual. Although government is, far and away, the biggest killer on the planet, it is government that they trust, and they fear their fellow citizens. They do want to render us all defenseless and put us all at the mercy of the regime -- look at what they have done in Australia and Britain! They demonize guns.
Clinton /// Maybe you didn't idolize Clinton, but I'd say you're the exception. For most Leftians, Clinton could do no wrong. That's a consequence of our one-dimensional universe: The citizen becomes a mere cheerleader.
Syria /// Libya is a catastrophe. Libyans have lost all of their social services and the country is now overrun with Islamists and terrorists. Please don't inflict Libya on Syria. Syria is the last remaining secular state in the region. That will end if the U.S.-backed "rebels" take over. Alewites will be massacred. Christians will be massacred. Loyalist Sunnies will be massacred. There is no alternative to a negotiated reconciliation, but the "rebels" are not interested in anything less than a total blood-bath.
Heaven and hell /// The Rightians punish their heretics in the afterlife; the Leftians punish heretics here and now, by demonizing them and blacklisting them.
I think your goal is laudable & I think the 1% has done well to split the 99%
abortion: this is a very difficult choice for the woman, but I also look at it from the fact that a large percent of the anti-abortion movement is a nti-planned parenthood and anti birth control
Clinton: I think he is brilliant. Just look at his recent convention speech.
again: another perspective:
what did postPresident Clinton do?
He linked up with George Bush to help the world.
What did Jr do? he went to his ranch.
What did Ford do ? corporate boards.
What did Carter do? Habitat for humanity.
NOW THE PUNCH LINE:
When Reagan was president, which country in the world flourished the most? Japan A few days after Reagan left office, he gave two speeches for $2,000,000. Guess where - Japan Syria: I'm not sure you are wrong. I really think that unless we get a strong request from many counties in the region to help THEM take down this monster - we should stay out. H/H: I am probably guilty of demonizing a FEW people -
[ GWB is NOT one of them ]
I would demonize those who seriously harm the 99% for their own greed and power:
kochs, cheney, lee atwater, rove, scott walker, rick scott, paul ryan, ron paul, mitt romney, rush, shawn
not sure what you mean by blacklisting- would you want to work for or with any of my "demons" - do they have ANY redeeming qualities?
[Removed]
"The bullying prosecution of Aaron Swartz might be a sign that we're losing the tolerance for dissent, irreverence, and disrespect for authorities that made this country great.."
No, it doesn't. Access to information is being reserved for the elite.
Not sure what you mean.
Whoever removes the information will do what they wish with it. If information is reserved for elites or simply disposed of is irrelevant. The fact that it is happening everywhere, including here in this forum, without resistance, shows indeed "...that we're losing the tolerance for dissent, irreverence, and disrespect for authorities..."
Actually, it's part of a pattern, Fawkes. Like it or not. It is very relevant.
Relevant to what? This forum would appear to be the last place that" ..losing the tolerance for dissent, irreverence, and disrespect for authorities..." would take place. Yet it does.
Yeah, I don't want to hear about your issues with the forum. I am not going to help you shift the dialogue.
What pattern? Relevant to what? Those are my questions. Incidentally the thread is about "...losing the tolerance for dissent, irreverence, and disrespect for authorities..."
I just said that I don't buy it. Lemme ask you this: Why did Swartz do it?
I am not the only one that is on this track: Mr. Malamud said that while he did not approve of Mr. Swartz’s actions at M.I.T., “access to knowledge and access to justice have become all about access to money, and Aaron tried to change that. That should never have been considered a criminal activity.” http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/technology/aaron-swartz-internet-activist-dies-at-26.html?_r=0
My questions remain unanswered.
What he did was the right thing to do. He knew it. He also knew that his death would be more of an impact in that direction than his trial. If access to information is lost, there will be no end to the injustices that will follow.
Too bad he didn't fight in court instead of committing suicide.
I doubt that he would have won.
Not important. He would have had the chance to defend his point of view and express his ideas. Court cases become public. News agencies would have picked up his message. His ideas would have been spread to the public. Suicide is just a cop out. But yeah, he had depression problems since early childhood, so it's much deeper than it looks. I just wish he would have taken this chance to fight for what's right. Imagine if Mandela would have chosen the easy way out instead of spending a life in jail and fighting for what's right. We should never give up.
But, he did fight for what was right. Then he got slammed. Then he would have gone to prison. And the newspapers would move on.
And then there is Manning.
He fought for what was right with hacking which is illegal. It would have been interesting to hear him express his views and ideas with words. I feel he bailed out too early. The illegal hacking was just a call for attention, he was going to have the attention, then walked out.
His ideas have attention. Hopefully those ideas will spread.
"I started with....."His ideas have attention. Hopefully those ideas will spread." as you may see above."
I meant, between us, you are the first to have brought insults on the table.
I disagree. Please show me.
Agent? Are you kidding? How paranoid are you? In case you didn't notice, you started with the use of insults.
I started with....."His ideas have attention. Hopefully those ideas will spread." as you may see above.
Well, I guess we should give up then? I'm glad some people went to court to fight for gay marriage. Some faulty laws got overturned because of the constitution in that case. I guess your argument is they should not have bothered?
Your vernacular resembles that of someone who doesn't care, someone who doesn't try. A person with their shoulders down whispering a sigh of despair as the world goes by before them - "It's no use. The government is too powerful and evil. I might as well do nothing. Ah!!! The agony of modern life.... Ah!"
Your additional edit, combined with the insults included, added to your lack of discernment in discussion, says to me one word. Agent.
I hope your experience/investigation here includes researching the sources and the points made by many posters here, and drawing conclusions based upon the new information you obtain. Thank you.
"...Hey, if the laws were faulty, if his crime wasn't that bad, etc... then he would have gotten off pretty easy..." That statement is indicative an attitude. It is not the attitude of discernment.
Faulty laws get overturned often. Until Corporate Personhood is abolished all other laws fall suspect.
Nobody said laws couldn't be faulty. Had he gone to court he could have fought against laws he thought were faulty. That's why there's a constitution which is above laws. Some laws are changed sometimes because they go against the constitution. He knew that what he was doing was illegal, whether or not he thought that law was fault or not doesn't matter. I think he should have manned up and fought for his rights as best as possible. Hey, if the laws were faulty, if his crime wasn't that bad, etc... then he would have gotten off pretty easy.
Courts enforce faulty laws. Those who enforce faulty laws knowingly, are enemies of all people. History has shown this to be true.
Your vernacular resembles one who enforces faulty laws. My opinion.
"I disagree. Please show me."
It's not important. The thread is short. Read it over again if you really want to see it. There's more important issues to tackle. I'm not here for personal fights. Take care.
Oh wait, here it is: http://occupywallst.org/forum/washington-post-us-is-losing-the-tolerance-for-dis/#comment-913391
"Your vernacular resembles one who enforces faulty laws." An uncalled for gratuitous and baseless insult. This is only an opinion, and you can keep such opinions to yourself.
You may notice that statement is response.
In the tech world they do, but I believe he would have gained further reach by going to court. In any case, a sad story. He knew his activities were illegal, he should have manned up and gone to court. Mandela did.
Laws can be faulty.
...Stalin passed a new law on "terrorist organizations and terrorist acts" that were to be investigated for no more than ten days, with no prosecution, defense attorneys or appeals, followed by a sentence to be executed "quickly."... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin
...Marriages between Jews and citizens (German: Staatsangehörige) of German or kindred blood are forbidden. Marriages concluded in defiance of this law are void, even if, for the purpose of evading this law, they were concluded abroad... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws
He downloaded the info legally I believe. It wasn't "hacking". They claimed he downloaded so much and "was going to" make it available for free.
I think he was not guilty ofanything.
"Nah, he was a victim of extreme depression. The prosecution doesn't consider that and as a result he was pushed over an edge."
If you would have been his lawyer you could have told him - "Dude! You're Scott free. Do not even worry about this. It's a piece of cake."
how do you know he didn't hear that. Depression works in a way that we may not understand or appreciate.
i think the lawyer probably did fine, They aren't responsible for his depression. His dr's perhaps, friends & family I suppose. But less so the lawyer.
Wow, he really should have gone to court. He committed suicide when he would have been Scott free. What a tragedy. A deeply ironic tragedy. I guess he had a really bad lawyer.
Nah, he was a victim of extreme depression. The prosecution doesn't consider that and as a result he was pushed over an edge.
Yeah. You wouldn't have been the one doing the time. It's always easier when someone else is doing the time.
Hacking is illegal. About that. He had called attention to an issue that is extremely important. One that everyone already knows 'bout but people do not want to pay attention to at all. You know this wasn't about calling attention to himself.
Hacking is illegal. About that. Do you notice that those that have been hacked are less angry about the fact that they have been hacked and more angry about how they were just busted and attention was drawn to what they were actually up to?
That's not a defense. He knew his activities were illegal. Of course, it's easier if you don't do the time. I'm just stating an opinion. It would have been great to hear the case. That's all. I'm sure he didn't commit suicide simply because of this. He had depression problems and mental problems as well. Many people face jail and don't commit suicide. He had depression since childhood. A sad story indeed.
On the side, you seem like quite a harsh person.
I think that you would be surprised at the number of people who attempt suicide, and are sometimes successful, in jails and prisons. Although it has decreased significantly in the US, it is still a problem. You can obtain those stats from the DOJ. I have noticed that there is an increase of activity on the internet of trying to paint this guy as having mental problems. I have only heard that he had depression on and off.
Harsh? Harsh is repeating the mantra of hacking is illegal and refusing to look at the why. Did you cry?
I did not.
I will demonstrate harsh if you speak in Libertopian.