Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: To ALL THE TROLLS and AYN RAND finatics who enjoy themselves on this site, read these 6 paragraphs & take them to heart

Posted 1 year ago on Dec. 6, 2012, 11:19 a.m. EST by therising (6643)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

This was written 132 years ago in 1880, but it's as relevant today as it was then. Perhaps more so.

"Today, everyone asserts his own personality and strives to live a full life as an individual. But these efforts lead not to a full life but to suicide, because instead of realizing his personality, man only slips into total isolation. For in our age, man has been broken up into self-contained individuals, each of whom retreats into his lair, trying to stay away from the rest, hiding himself and his belongings from the rest of mankind, and finally isolating himself from people and people from him.

And while he accumulates material wealth in his isolation, he thinks with satisfaction how mighty and secure he has become, because he is mad and cannot see that the more goods he accumulates, the deeper he sinks into suicidal impotence. The reason for this is that he has become accustomed to relying only on himself; he has split off from the whole and become an isolated unit; he has trained his soul not to rely on human help, not to believe in man and mankind, and only to worry that the wealth and privileges he has accumulated may get lost.

Everywhere men today are turning scornfully away from the truth that the security of the individual cannot be achieved by his isolated efforts but only by mankind as a whole.

BUT AN END to this fearful isolation is bound to come and all men will understand how unnatural it was for them to have isolated themselves from one another. This will be the spirit of the new era and people will look in amazement at the past when they sat in darkness and refused to see the light. . . . . . Until that day, we must keep hope alive, and now and then a man must set an example, even if only an isolated one, by trying to lift his soul out of its isolation and offering it up in an act of brotherly communion, even if he is taken for one of God's fools.

This is necessary to keep the great idea alive."

~ Dostoevsky

And Albert Einstein said this:

“A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.”

55 Comments

55 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 2 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

folks are folks

I have not read Dostoevsky before here he seems a bit perplexed by what is, Einstein, as he was almost always, is on to something I think. On this there has been more work Pierrre Teilhard de Chardin worte serveral books on this, I will warn you he is not a "Great Writer" but he is a great thinker and it is worth the effort, so far...

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Thanks for the tip. Will check his work out.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Don't get me wrong I do think Dostoevsky would no doubt make the list if people who knew something were gathered to pick a hundred or so, and I would be of little use in the process.

I'd say Shakespeare! They’d say DUD? I’d say Voltaire! They’d say dud, I’d say Steinbeck? And they would say dud and I’d shut up.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I've heard Chomsky's book on Occupy is awesome.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Well, fortunately their judgment doesn't hold much sway :). It's what connects with people that matters in my view.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

This was written 132 years ago in 1880 ???

Sounds like it could have been written today.

A sad commentary on the state of greed and it's assault on society.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

If you think about the waves of protest / uprisings that have arisen rose during the period 1960 - 2012, you might arrive at the conclusion that humanity keeps getting a really good running start to break free of the orbit of this limited "bucket" that is the self-centered mindset. I suppose, if the pail is filled with milk (as the story goes) and we humans are frogs in the pale, we just have to keep kicking like hell in various ways. Eventually the milk will turn to butter so we can move on out of that pail into a much larger and more fulfilling life.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Well in that case - consider me as furiously kicking. I think what is interesting - is - that the better the communications - the stronger the actions. Perhaps with world wide communications open to the public - that this will make the positive difference this time.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Oh, I think that's exactly what's going on. I really do. This time we're going to break out of the orbit of that bucket and emerge into a larger, freer, more loving life. It's a big big world. It only looks small from inside the bucket :). Here's to the process of churning milk into butter. I think communication and direct nonviolent action in countless forms is the key. The more the better. Rock n roll.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Keep-on Keeping-ON. We are entering a new age.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

We're lucky to be here at this time. It's going to be a beautiful awakening.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

The turmoil in making the change "is" and is going to be so awful for so many - but - yes - I also feel very fortunate to be living at this point in time - to see the change happening - to be a part of advocating for the growth of humanity..

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

It's hard to believe this is all the further we've gotten in 132 years.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Yep - when you consider all of the discoveries in science medicine technology - to find that we have not grown spiritually/psychologically/emotionally/communally. It is very much dismaying.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Deep. Applicable now more than ever, because we are in the midst of the extreme of the described cycle.

Great post. Trolls will not appreciate it, even if they read it.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Well. I suppose the good news is that it's always darkest before the dawn as they say. The water has been building up behind this weak corporate-centric dam for a long long time.... In the words of a great poet: "Sooner or later, it'll all fall down, because you can't push people around." Systems should be designed to primarily benefit people not corporations. I think these two video clips explain where it ran off the rails and what we can do about it:

Item 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SuUzmqBewg . Fast-forward to 2:20. It'll blow your mind. It's time to set this straight.

Item 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5kHACjrdEY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I think we are living through a major shift. As we did in the '70's- '80's (if you're that old lol)

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Well, I was just a kid in the late 60's early 70's but I did spend an evening drinking and playing pool with Abbie Hoffman in the 80's :). At the time he was protesting (mostly alone) against the diversion of the Delaware River. What a life he led (however flawed). Watched the documentary "Woodstock" recently and it really gives you a flavor of the wave that was rising then. There were lots of mistakes made but also such a beautiful time of awakening in the midst of such chaos.

You know, when you think about confusion, chaos etc (what most people think of as one of the negative parts that result from such movements or awakenings), it also makes one think about what Martin L. King, Jr. said so often: "The presence of order does not imply the presence of justice." In fact, he suggested tension could be good. This is from his "Letter from the Birmingham Jail":

"Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks to so dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood."

"The purpose of our direct-action program is to create a situation so crisis-packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation."

Here's the entire "Letter from the Birmingham Jail": http://abacus.bates.edu/admin/offices/dos/mlk/letter.html . It's a treasure and is as timely as ever.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Excellent. I agree.

Thx

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

It does kind of seem like we are in the midst of that shift. And particularly right now during this lull it kind of feels like the calm before the storm... As if last fall was just a warmup.

[-] -2 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

What if someone you consider to be a troll, not only read the post but appreciated it? And what if that supposed troll asked you if you were willing to see if there was anything applicable to yourself in the post in the exact same way that supposed troll applied it to herself?

So you "separate yourself, your thoughts and feelings" from the things you believe that others are, or think and feel? Or do you stand on the idea that all people think and feel and reason in the same ways no matter what their personal experiences are?

Do you view yourself, your thoughts and words here as being "separate from the rest" of society? Or another group in society? If so, then it is-"a sort of optical delusion of your consciousness".

Does your circle of compassion extend to both the rich and the poor? The liberals AND the conservatives? The Democrats and the Republicans? Or does the self imposed prison of your mind restrict you to your personal desires and your affection to only those few who agree with you or are similar to yourself?

Are you willing to extend your circle of compassion to encompass ALL living creatures and the whole of nature and it's beauty? Or are you wiling to only extend compassion to those who you "separate" from "the rest" based on some personal criteria that forms the bars of your prison?

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Ah. I see where you're going with this. But think about it this way. Sometimes tension is necessary. You know, when you think about confusion, chaos etc (what most people think of as one of the negative parts that result from such movements or awakenings), it also makes one think about what Martin L. King, Jr. said so often: "The presence of order does not imply the presence of justice." In fact, he suggested tension could be good. This is from his "Letter from the Birmingham Jail": "Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks to so dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood." "The purpose of our direct-action program is to create a situation so crisis-packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation." Here's the entire "Letter from the Birmingham Jail": http://abacus.bates.edu/admin/offices/dos/mlk/letter.html . It's a treasure and is as timely as ever.

[Removed]

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

To put it another way paraphrasing Martin L. King, Jr.: We don't hate people. In fact we love them so much that we want to set them right. So, the Einstein and Dostevsky quotes above imply everyone needs to agree with everyone. In fact, out of necessity, they may need to disagree quite vocally and forcefully in a nonviolent way. That's the healthy tension King spoke of in quote in my earlier response.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Babble babble, BabbleRoss!

I will try to answer your above babble.

Great!, I would be!, No!, I do!, No!, No!, No delusion! Yes!, Yes!, Yes!, No, no prison! Already do! No! no prison.

Please stop babbling. Ask a sensible question. This is ridiculous nonsense.

[-] -2 points by RedDragon (-161) 1 year ago

The only question I have is how you access the Net from your cell.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Because you have a stunted inquisitive nature.

[-] 0 points by RedDragon (-161) 1 year ago

After you get out, you should really think about getting a job.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I am thinking of it. but I've managed by living frugally and making a little money working for myself.

Is that ok with you?

This way I can stay connected to the OWS forum & challenge all the right wing wackos who come here to disrupt this great movement.

Cool?

[-] -2 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

You just demonstrated, again, that you aren't capable of widening your circle of compassion to every living creature-because I am a living creature and you consider my thoughts and words to be "babble" and "ridiculous nonsense".

According to Einstein's criteria, you are a prisoner who just thinks they are free.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

But you were babbling! Repeating meaningless questions 2 & 3 times in different ways.

Sorry, your not making sense, I truly have great compassion for your condition which is why I take the time & trouble to explain it to you.

Please get well soon.

[-] -2 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

Again, you continue to distinguish between yourself and me. You separate yourself, your thoughts, your experiences from mine and call them "my condition"-something apart from yours.

You can leave your prison at any point you wish to. Why do you choose to stay?

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Please stop babbling, you are not making sense.

Sorry. You and I are different people, & you appear to be suffering from some inability to express yourself clearly & concisely.

babble on BabbleRoss.

[-] -2 points by RedDragon (-161) 1 year ago

In his prison, freedom itself is an illusion.

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by freewriterguy (882) 1 year ago

I have lived in american beside you people for 48 years now, and never has a man come to my aid, but they have lied in wait to deceive or dig a pit for me to fall into one after another. so the very idea, that we will ever rely upon each other, is more like a fairy tale. People will destroy each other before that day comes. They have rejected the Lord's counsel to share the resources of the earth, and the 30 years of servitude that is burned into my soul will be a hard thing to forgive, let alone forget.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Well, I sincerely hope you continue to reach out. If you think about what began happening with Occupy movement in the fall of 2011, you'll realize that awakening from that nightmare of selfishness is indeed happening. It's happening. We're all going to have to let go of everything that ever happened before if we're going to see and embrace and enjoy that awakening.

[-] 2 points by grapes (2619) 1 year ago

It is true that the profit-driven culture of the U.S. had done ridiculous things such as selling less and less for more and more. Who invented the bikinis, advanced to the low-slung, and to the g-string, skimming material usage to the border of obscenity? To prevent obscenity while driving for the ultimate, body hair removal became a good business opportunity, too. The U.S. had steadily become the Rip-Off Society over the decades.

However, the U.S. was the source of much that is considered modern: the airplanes, elevators, skyscrapers, telephones, microchips, cellular phones, the embryonic internet, lasers, video disks, microwave ovens, optical fibers, etc. We went after material well-being with a vengeance while neglecting the non-material. We need to achieve a better balance.

It is not hopeless because the U.S. had taken in refugees from around the world and wrought from them a nation of very significant wealth and power so we should be able to work on the complementary side if we will it as a people united in purpose.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I hope we can unite and insist on a system that benefits humans instead of just corporations.

[-] 2 points by grapes (2619) 1 year ago

Yes, let us broaden the base to include more people than just those for whom the corporations are avatars endowed with potentially perpetual lives and equipped with proboscises to suck blood.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

We humans are more than consumers. We are also citizens.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2619) 1 year ago

Yes, if success were to come to eliminating the g-string in the drive for the ultimate, obscene profits would truly be given literal meaning.

[-] -2 points by eatmyshorts (-2) 1 year ago

Definition of a a troll : Anyone that has a different opinion of the OWS

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I think you have to also be taking part in gratuitous divisivness, for no reason other than to annoy and disrupt.

What do you disagree with OWS about?

[-] -1 points by lignite (-303) 1 year ago

Yes if you disagree with them then sometimes your comment is removed or you get shadow banned

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I thought it was excessive, gratuitous, discriminatory, obscenities, without any merit or purpose other than disruption. Isn't that the banning criteria.

Have you been banned?

[-] -3 points by TheRazor (-329) 1 year ago

" Money cant buy happiness but it sure can get you a harem of sexy girls." Razor.

I like mine better.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I figured that those quotes were kryptonite to those who think like you. Obviously I was right. Are you incapable of sincerity? Can't you give an honest reaction to those two quotes?

[+] -4 points by Coyote88 (-24) 1 year ago

Fuck collectivism.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Do you really take nothing seriously? Even those heartfelt intelligent statements by two geniuses (Dostoevsky and Einstein) don't elicit any rational honest response. Just an expletive? If that's all you're going to do on this forum, why are you even here?

[-] -2 points by Coyote88 (-24) 1 year ago

So called geniuses ( one in science and one in literature) have nothing to do with what is essentially politics. You are promoting collectivism. Fuck collectivism! If you hate the individual that is your problem.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

PS - It's kind of odd that you want to divorce science from politics. Is that what those tea party folks are doing when they deny global warming? And why would you suggest literature has nothing to do with politics. Have you read the Brothers Karamazov? I think you're missed a good chunk of the book if you did. If you haven't read it, I strongly encourage. Enjoyable read and even if you don't agree with it, at least it would challenge and focus your approach.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Well, at least give the two quotes some thought. Maybe you'll come around to the idea that it's better to live in a community than in a gated community. I just don't understand why you're so insistent about walling yourself off. Is it an Ayn Rand thing?

[-] -1 points by Coyote88 (-24) 1 year ago

I'm talking individualism. Not gated communities( which is still a community.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

OK - but why does it have to be one or the other? Why do you rule out a community altogether? Why not be a free individual freely participating in a dynamic community with roads, bridges, schools, markets, concerts, community engagement, taking care of each other? What is so abhorrent about that to you?

[-] -1 points by Coyote88 (-24) 1 year ago

If an individual wants that then bully for him. But don't demonized someone that doesn't want that. Too many Marxists in the past have forced uniformity in the populace..

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

You see. This is where I think you're confused. I didn't demonize you or anyone. I simply advocated for community. You made in clear with expletives that you despised the idea of community. Nobody is demonizing anyone. What I'm doing is disagreeing with you.