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Forum Post: Most liberals are as low information as their tea party counter parts

Posted 1 year ago on June 12, 2013, 7:46 p.m. EST by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

By Jeff Cohen

There’s no easier way to gauge the disappointment that liberals and progressives should feel toward President Obama than to look at their cars – more specifically, their bumper stickers.

I’ve been playing this game for years. Whenever I see a car with an Obama-Biden bumper sticker and a second bumper sticker, most of the time I can predict the following about that second sticker:

  1. It usually reflects a social cause the car owner cares about.

  2. The cause reflected on that second bumper sticker is usually one that that Obama has opposed or obstructed as president. It’s uncanny. It’s jarring. And it’s commonplace.

When I see those cars, I try to assure myself: Someone who cares enough about an issue to paste a sticker on their car must know that Obama is not an ally on that issue.

I have a bit of sympathy for liberals and progressives whose cars carry a tattered 2008 Obama bumper sticker...along with another sticker (or two) for causes Obama has actually undermined. Back in 2008, many thought Obama might bring about progressive change.

But here are some bumper stickers I’ve seen in recent months . . . alongside non-tattered “Obama 2012” stickers.

“Criminalize Fracking!” In upstate New York where I live, I’ve seen anti-fracking stickers on several cars with “Obama 2012” stickers. Could these car owners really be unaware that Obama is a longtime champion of gas-fracking, who appointed industry-connected fracking enthusiast Ernest Moniz as his Secretary of Energy?

“Local Farms, Local Food” Could this Obama supporter be unaware that the president packed his administration from the beginning with executives and lobbyists from Monsanto and other corporate promoters of global agricultural monoculture?

“WE ARE THE 99%” No presidential candidate in history had received more Wall Street funding than Obama in 2008, and Wall Streeters dominated his economic team from day one – not to mention that one Obama Chief of Staff after another was a 1-percenter investment banking exec, from Rahm Emanuel to Bill Daley to Jack Lew (now Obama’s Treasury Secretary).

“WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER” Are you kidding me? Go tell that to the Afghans, Pakistanis, Yemenis, or anyone who’s seen Jeremy Scahill’s new book or documentary on Obama’s “Dirty Wars” – with the book subtitled: “The World Is a Battlefield.”

“DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION: Repeal the Patriot Act” Hello!!

You don’t need to be Einstein to explain this paradox – “Obama 2012” stickers alongside those for causes Obama has actually resisted or undermined. These car owners will tell you: I care deeply about fracking (or local farms or economic justice or war or civil liberties), and I displayed the Obama 2012 sticker because on the issue or issues I care about, a President Romney would have been worse.

There’s some logic here.

But it should bother these folks to consider that their cars may be misleading others to believe that Obama opposes the dangerous fracking process or that he stands up to the greed of Wall Streeters when, in fact, they’ve been so powerful inside his administration.

Here’s a simple solution:

  1. Tear off the Obama election stickers.

  2. Right in front of each bumper sticker that says “War is Not the Answer” or “Defend the Constitution” or “Ban Fracking” – as a salutation for those stickers – put one that reads “PRESIDENT OBAMA:” With these two simple steps, thousands of progressive car owners can avoid any risk of sowing confusion about how Obama has actually been governing. Instead, they’ll be sending a clear and important message that often gets lost in mainstream media: There is a large, active progressive community in our country that is unhappy with Obama, and is making demands on him.”

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/06/12-5

190 Comments

190 Comments


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[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

btw... PK... the bumper sticker idea is fantastic... I've shared it all over the place .... ;)

[-] 1 points by trashyharry (1077) from Waterville, NY 1 year ago

Don't worry.We all hate Obama.There is no way we can ever hate Obama as much as we hate G.W.Bush-unless he successfully lies the country into a war with a 3 trillion dollar (or more)price tag.That's for people who only care about wasted money.All of that negative energy will come right back to the US.Brace yourselves because Hilary is coming.The Clintons are Corporatists.

[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

That Obama is the biggest disappointment in the lives of most non-Republicans is self-evident but just as a Baby Bush reminder - 'G.W.Bush has a New Lie-Bury' - http://republicandirtytricks.com/george-w-bush-has-a-new-lie-bury/#more-2540 - and you are VERY right to be wary of Hilary Kill-tons too! Never Give Up Exposing The 'One Party-Two Faces' State Of Affairs in the US! Occupy Democracy. Solidarity.

[+] -5 points by justiceforzim (-17) 1 year ago

You got that right. Here's Ralph Nader

Ralph Nader, liberal activist and two-time third-party presidential candidate, lambasted President Obama in a Wednesday interview, and called for a liberal alternative to challenge in him in the 2012 presidential campaign.

"He has no fixed principles," Nader said, of Mr. Obama. "He's opportunistic -- he goes for expedience, like Clinton. Some call him temperamentally conflict-averse. If you want to be harsher, you say he has no principles and he's opportunistic."

"He's a con man," Nader continued. "I have no use for him."

Nader urged a progressive candidate to challenge Mr. Obama http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20025168-503544.html

[+] -6 points by justiceforzim (-17) 1 year ago

Wait. wait. The above is from 2010. Here's what he said last week

Ralph Nader last week had some harsh words for the current President of the United States.

Appearing on Democracy Now!, Nader asked host Amy Goodman, "Has there been a bigger con man in the White House than Barack Obama?" (video follows with transcript and commentary):

Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2013/06/13/ralph-nader-has-there-been-bigger-con-man-white-house-barack-obama#ixzz2WAjPVjhL

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

I have a gnawing feeling that you imagine Republicans would be better! There is nothing I can say or no link I can connect to which can help you with that but just in case you've forgotten what Republicans are like, please see - http://www.nationofchange.org/dick-cheney-laughs-privacy-concerns-over-government-surveillance-1371479624 . Never Give Up On The 99%! Occupy Solidarity!

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I would just like to point out that an entire article was made on bumper stickers. Talk about low information. That's not even an article. It's a rant that belongs on a blog.

[-] 5 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 1 year ago

Well that's about the comprehension level of most of the Obama supporting liberals on here.

War is peace!

Ignorance is strength!

Freedom is slavery!

HEIL!

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

How many of those are there really?

[-] 4 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 1 year ago

To be honest I disagree with the author of this article. I don't think that most liberal voters know that Obama doesn't support the causes that they care about and if they do they give him a free pass because he is a democrat. I may be wrong but that's the impression I get.

War is peace!

Ignorance is strength!

Freedom is slavery!

HEIL!

[+] -7 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Most liberals know that the GOP is waiting in the wings they understand the reality that if a Dem don't win the White House in 2016 a Republican will and everyone who gives a shit about this country will do all they can to keep that from happening. Too bad there are so many people like yourself (and Nader) that don't give a shit about the country.

[-] 4 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 1 year ago

Too many

War is peace!

Ignorance is strength!

Freedom is slavery!

HEIL!

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I'm serious. How many?

Because I've noticed a very strange interwebs phenomena in the last couple of weeks.

[Removed]

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Peter, it's good to see your "masochistic" self here again.

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

There isn't. There wasn't. What is insane is to listen to a group of people that haven't quite figured out yet that Obama is not up for reelection. For those people that want change? They are a little bit slow on the change. There is an entire congress at work as well.

[-] -2 points by WSmith (2033) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

They're working on making 2014 another 2010 and 2016 another 2000. Progressive Radio stations have been flipped like McDs slugburgers and MSM is becoming as Fox as Fox Lies. People are so beat with low expectations they can't remember the Bush Regime or a Big Picture, much less figure what is what beyond their phones and work, providing they have them. While the Con hijacked Congress gets away with year five of the 1%-GOP Hostage Crisis they blame on Obama, with Media and Public eyes wide shut! AM 1350 KABQ Albuquerque's Progressive Talk just flipped to "Chart Topping Hits" radio as I wrote this (update: this flip only lasted 2 1/2 hours). "Insane?" Like a fascist perfect storm!

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

providing for people means putting them to work

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

work became indentured servitude when credit got easy

[+] -5 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

The TEA Party doesn't cannibalize the right's votes trying to build their own party, even they don't have the ego that Nader and the Greens do. They put their goals ahead of their egos, ( well they are paid by the Koch bros to do so) they run people in primaries and wield real power that's why the 99% are getting screwed, because for the most part OWS refuses to do the same for us.

[-] 10 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

The 99% are being screwed because OWS refuses to be co-opted by Democraps ?!!! OMG frf - 'Captain Co-option' or what ?!! Are you ever going to be able to see past, through and beyond the duplicity of the duopoly ?! There's Demoblicans and then there are Republocrats, ok ? US democracy is a demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy q.e.d. & a 99% awakening and activation is what is needed ... NOT the continuation of the crazy 'One Corporate Controlled Pro-War & Empire Party with Two Factions' state of affairs, geddit ?

ad iudicium...

[-] -2 points by jollyholly (-15) 1 year ago

OWS is being screwed because many people forget that it was about creating the 99%, about uniting people on issues they can all agree with like getting money out of politics. Many people think Occupy is about attacking the right wing and annihilating them from our ranks. It's not. Right wingers, just like left wingers, want to remove money from politics. We shouldn't care about anyone's political affiliation here. Anyone who wants to join the fight against corruption should be welcomed. Certainly, we shouldn't call other people names that relate to attacking a whole political affiliation. Partisan politics serve no purpose in Occupy.

[-] 8 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

Yawn Trashy !!! You and 'factsrfukt' are better off playing 'circle jerk' here together !! I'm too busy for your crap right now ! Here you go 'Mr. PhfknD' ... read this by someone who really has one :

''Isn’t it strange that there is plenty of work to do, trillions of dollars of infrastructure to be rebuilt just in our own country, lots of people who are willing to work, goods sitting on shelves, and yet we are in the midst of a recession or worse because of a scarcity in the money supply – the only thing lacking is money.''

You have a very idiosyncratic understanding of the word 'politics' imo & I've been deconstructing your reactionary, conservative crap for so long now, it ain't even sport any more ... lolol, grrrrowl & hrumph.

temet nosce ...

[-] 0 points by jollyholly (-15) 1 year ago

You have a simple minded view. It's not because I attack the idea of turning Occupy into a partisan politics protest that I am a conservative. The point is, it shouldn't matter if I'm a conservative or not. I don't use such lame labels here. I believe in the 99%, in tackling issues we can all agree on no matter what our political affiliations might be. I don't understand occupiers who keep using labels like conservative, right winger, etc... This has nothing at all to do with Occupy. It's antithetical to our movement.

If you're obsession is fighting off conservatives, republicans, right wingers, etc... Why not join a movement designed for that? Occupy is designed to unite us over common ground. It's about unity, not division along political partisan lines. You're like a bingo player in a chess club. Nobody wants to play bingo here. It's better you head over to a bingo club. Shouldn't we all have the basic integrity to support the movements we believe in? If you don't believe unity is possible over certain issues, then why pretend to support Occupy which believes it is?

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

You don't have basic integrity. That is the problem.

[-] -3 points by jollyholly (-15) 1 year ago

Care to provide arguments for that assumption? I feel I have quite a lot of integrity. I stick by my beliefs and fight for them.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Sure. I would love too. You are a multiple ID cockroach that is repeatedly banned. You aren't here for unity. You are here because you're a right wing shill. Case closed.

[-] -3 points by jollyholly (-15) 1 year ago

You seem obsessed with Multiple IDs and name calling. I already explained this. It's to avoid censorship. I don't believe in censorship, so avoiding it is showing integrity on my part. Occupy also occupied parks when the cities didn't want them too. They refused eviction as long as they could. I'm doing that here.

You should complain to the moderators if this bothers you. Soiling the site with childish insults does not help this forum. It hurts it quite a bit by making us look like children instead of mature adults capable of discussing issues in serious fashion.

I am here for unity and have explained this in many postings. I also explained how using labels like "right wing shill" cause splintering, not unity. Occupy is about the 99%, not about artificially dividing people between left and right wings. The front page of this site clarifies this well. It states that people from all political affiliations are welcomed. I'm not sure why you attack right wingers, then claim to support Occupy and the idea of the 99%. Your constant use of that label is antithetical to Occupy.

We've been through this over and over again. We will have to agree to disagree. You think I'm here for division, and I think you are here for division. We can let our readers decide based on the arguments we have both provided.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

[-] 0 points by ruthfromdenver (0) 1 minute ago

Lol. You're pulling out my very early postings from almost two years ago, a few weeks after Occupy began, a few days after I came to this site. I posted some pretty stupid stuff before I understood what Occupy was all about. The postings after these initial stupidities all support Occupy. And, even these initial stupidities are not really against Occupy, they are just bad attempts at humor.

We all change. I sure changed a lot since first coming here. I don't think you should frame someone with what they posted two years in the past. That type of labeling is really a simple minded reading of an individual. If I dug up old posts and comments from anybody here, I could find viewpoints that changed quite a bit. What you're doing is akin to criticizing the work of an artist by looking at what he did at the beginning of his career. It makes little sense. What matter is the recent output.

What should be important to you is what I have been talking about in the last year and a half. Not old posts which have little significance. I'm way passed that now, and, if that's all you got, it really doesn't mean much. I'm not that person any longer. Haven't been for a long time. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink


Nothing changed. You still use multiple IDs and you still create shit characters. You still lie through your teeth. No, no change. You and your lackeys.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Actually, Thras, you came here to divide. You have never liked Occupy. http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-major-problem-with-the-ows-political-conception-/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/inuits-hired-by-ows/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-the-business-friendship-program/

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2137) 1 year ago

My fellow occupier, I'm occupying the forum in protest of OWS. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink http://occupywallst.org/forum/love-connections-december-3rd-4th-zuccotti-park/


You are a multiple ID troll that has always been against Occupy.

[-] -2 points by ruthfromdenver (-2) 1 year ago

Lol. You're pulling out my very early postings from almost two years ago, a few weeks after Occupy began, a few days after I came to this site. I posted some pretty stupid stuff before I understood what Occupy was all about. The postings after these initial stupidities all support Occupy. And, even these initial stupidities are not really against Occupy, they are just bad attempts at humor.

We all change. I sure changed a lot since first coming here. I don't think you should frame someone with what they posted two years in the past. That type of labeling is really a simple minded reading of an individual. If I dug up old posts and comments from anybody here, I could find viewpoints that changed quite a bit. What you're doing is akin to criticizing the work of an artist by looking at what he did at the beginning of his career. It makes little sense. What matter is the recent output.

What should be important to you is what I have been talking about in the last year and a half. Not old posts which have little significance. I'm way passed that now, and, if that's all you got, it really doesn't mean much. I'm not that person any longer. Haven't been for a long time.

Let's agree to call that my stupid period. It lasted a few weeks when I first arrived. I wish I could delete those nonsensical posts, but I can't.

Read the latest stuff to understand my current position. Things like the Bridge to the Ground, trying to unify the 99% over common ground, not using insults and logical fallacies, pushing for the creation of coops in the anarchy syndicalist style, etc...

[+] -5 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

What do you think would get Schemer's attention quicker, a Green on the ballot or a serious primary opponent talking about how he defends the deferred interest/wage tax ripoff?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6niWzomA_So

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/05/27/130527fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=all

http://occupywallst.org/forum/it-is-time-for-ows-to-get-involved-and-challenge-s/

[-] 9 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

I've no time now to look at your links but will do later today and in the meantime :

veritas vos liberabit ...

[+] -4 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

So what about an answer to the question, which do you think will get Schumer's attention? are you prepared to discuss the issue at hand or do you just wish to spout your political crap?

[-] 9 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

You see I open your links tho' there's li'l or no indication whatsoever that you do the same to mine, lolol. Charles Shumer is a bought and paid for Corporation Controlled, Pro-Bankster, Democratic Party, 99% Traitor. What would clearly get this crooked mthfkr's ''attention'' is a serious opponent talking about the issues you allude to - but that opponent sure doesn't look to be coming from 'The DemoCraps' !! Read my link above, or the one in the comment below (by Nile Bowie - you'll possibly enjoy that one) and maybe even try this one too :

Btw, I sympathise with you as having John 'War-Pimp' McCain as senator is probably driving you into being a distinctly doolally, desperate dude.

multum in parvo ...

[+] -7 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Your links are filled with nothing but masturbation.

Feeding the egos of political want-a-bes has no interest to me.

Too bad you didn't consider Kucinich a serious opponent.

[-] 9 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

''Kucinich was one of the those rare people in Washington whose commitment to his beliefs outweighed both his loyalty to his Party and his desperation to cling to political office. He thus often highlighted the severe flaws, deceit & cowardice of his fellow Democrats and their Party as well as the broader political class. That’s why he has to be vilified as crazy and wacky. He has long been delivering an unpleasant message about the Democratic Party and Washington generally & like all unwanted messengers, has to be dismissed & marginalized so that this criticism disappears. Thus, those who brought us the Iraq War, Endless War in general, citizen assassinations, the systematic incineration of the US Constitution known as the 'War on Terror', the financial collapse, the destruction of the middle class and the financial and political supremacy of banker-criminals are sane and respectable. Those who most vehemently opposed those assaults, like Dennis Kucinich, are the “wackiest.” from :

Read it and weep frf, although you of course are more of a 'Conservative Democrat', Hitlary Clinton fan than faux Kucinich convert as evidenced by :

nosce te ipsum ...

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I hope some day that Dennis Kucinich receives the full-on gratitude of a grateful nation for being a Profile In Courage

~Odin~

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

Ditt-O :-) & I strongly recommend windyacres' DK related link below & here's the video of the lecture with a 5:30m intro., the 40m lecture AND an excellent and the rather moving 'Q&A' that follows it :

Solidarity @ you and yours & steer clear of the moose jerky ;-)

pax ...

[-] 2 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

A great piece from Kucinich that got few responses here when I posted it before.

http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/db_article.php?article_id=447

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

http://sacred-economics.com/ and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEZkQv25uEs & from @ your link:

'' Imagine, coming from a position of love of our country and for each other, if we moved forward without judgment, to meet the promise of a more perfect union by meeting the challenge of violence in our homes, our streets, our schools, our places of work and worship, to meet the challenge of violence in our society through the creation of a new structure in our society which could directly address domestic violence, spousal abuse, child abuse, gun violence, gang violence, violence against gays. This goes much deeper than legislation forbidding such conduct, or creating systems to deal with victims. Those are necessary but not sufficient. We need to go much deeper if we are to, at last, shed the yoke of violence which we carry throughout our daily lives.''

''We know violence is a learned response. So is non-violence. We must replace a culture of violence with a culture of peace, not through the antithetical use of force, not through endless “thou shalt nots” and not through mere punishment, but through tapping our higher potential to teach principles of peace building, peace sharing at the earliest ages as part of a civic education in a democratic society.'' & fyi :

Thanx for your link. Reading it reminded me that I'd had heard those words and hence the linked video.

fiat lux et fiat pax ...

[+] -6 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Do you think the Democrats are going top kill the Republicans for you? They depend on the Republicans, sure people say the GOP will never win again nationally, but I don't believe it the Ds will do whatever they have to in order to keep them alive because they know if the GOP goes the whole system falls down, (as far as the 1% grip on power).

[-] 8 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

See, there's insight there and I can agree with much of this - despite your other comments and hence :

fiat lux ...

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

I'll be back the the next time I see wealth inequality and OWS on the TV, I think the Greens have killed OWS but I'm not sure we'll just have to see I guess. I get treated like a Republican around here because I hate the Greens proving that many if not most posters here are really just political hacks, those working for change have mostly moved on.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

You're NOT a Republican - it's just that in their actions and in their friends and funders 'The Democrap Party Machine' - as opposed to the decent, Democratic Party Voters - is just NOT that different to the Republicons. Obomber and Hitlary being the case in point, as while paying lip service to The 99%, they represent the interests of Banksters, Corporations and the Military-Industrial War Machine while the US 99% silently suffer in a sea of austerity at home - with Imperial atrocity abroad being perpetrated in their name, whilst there is inexcusable public penury despite private opulence - as characterised by :

''Occupy Wall Street - The Revolution Continues Worldwide !'' - so don't begrudge principled agitation 'frf' & consider - ''The overwhelming constituency that helped Bush win was not Nader’s but the Democrats’. Blue Dog/Bush Democrats in particular. If only 1% of them voted blue or just stayed home, Gore wins easily. But Blue Dog conservative Dems are above reproach & critique, so 3rd party witch hunts were a convenient diversion from this sad fact.'' from :

ad iudicium ...

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

There is a way to do this, but the Greens and other "third parties" stand in the way, as they have for decades. The people who use suffering to feather their beds rather than fight for change are the lowest of the low, like this "Joel" guy.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

Tch & "The Empty Politics of Duopoly", by Nile Bowie :

Sometimes 'frf', I ask myself why I bother ? Oh yeah, it's PK's thread ;-)

fiat lux ...

[+] -7 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

The 99% are fucked because OWS refuses to use the tools at hand to get the job done. You really think the ladder of power can stand after we've kicked one of the legs out from under it? I am not about supporting the status qua, which third parties do by allowing people a place to vent, I am about real radical change, i'm talking about removing the spokespeople of the 1% from power, you are just about bitching and feeling smug.

[-] 10 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

Dude, you're a funny guy ! I accept that you think you are ''about real radical change (&) talking about removing the spokespeople of the 1% from power'' but then you keep ignoring the self-evident 'fact' that The Democratic Party Machine' has long been co-opted by The Banks, The Corporations & the 0.01% Parasite Class !! You are really a great example of the disconnect between good, sound, well meaning 'Democrat Voters' & the 'Dem. Party Machine' & IF the Dem Party was made up of people like Dennis Kucinich, Cynthia McKinney or Bernie Sanders you would have a point ... but it ain't and THAT speaks volumes !

multum in parvo ...

[+] -6 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

You're just another political hack that cares more about your party than you do about America, that's how Bush got elected in the first place, fools like you.

[-] 8 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

Get this through your thick head 'factsRfukt' - THE 99% are my party and listen up grand-dad .. IF its a ''hack'' you seek, try a fkn mirror or take a peek @ TrashyTroll, lol !!!

nosce te ipsum ...

[-] -1 points by jollyholly (-15) 1 year ago

You're here to push for the democrats, and attack right wingers. That's not the 99%, that's not what Occupy is about.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

TCH, Tch, tch Trashy !!! Head still lost up ass and echoing, I see !! Sheesh & lol ! However, you serve my purpose by allowing me to append the following AND will do yourself a HUGE favour IF you engage with this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fYE9YoM51k in order to get what OWS is all really about.

verb. sat. sap ?

[+] -6 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

If you support the 99% why the fuck don't you start acting like it instead working day and night to elect Republicans?

[-] -1 points by jollyholly (-15) 1 year ago

How would electing the Republicans get us closer to the 99%. It would just be dividing in the other direction. The only way to create the 99% is to rise above partisan politics and talk about issues that everyone can agree on, like getting money out of politics. Partisan politics has no place in Occupy. This is not a political party, and never will be.

[+] -5 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Let's face it Peter you don't hate the Democrats you love the Democrats you want to be the Democrats. (You just want to call it Green)

[+] -5 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

The voting booth is place to Have Your Say

Don't take part in a cooked system!!

Stay pure and stay out of IT!

Better to bitch about what gone wrong, than to keep it from happening.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 1 year ago

Whatever you think of the article, it has prompted some pretty interesting discussion.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Not really.

[+] -4 points by Narley (536) 1 year ago

Am I the only one who thinks bumper stickers are dumb; and can make you a target. For instance, you have a Obama sticker, a repub sees it and feels the need to mess up your paint job. If you have sticker that support guns your car becomes a target for those who don’t like guns, If you have a bumper sticker advertising some high dollar car stereo system, guess who’s car get broken into. Bumper stickers, a bad idea. That includes back window stickers for stereos and such.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I have always thought they were tacky.

[-] -1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

suffice it to say most people are ignorant or idiots, one of the two. even when presented with the correct information often times they are unable to discern proper course of action or truth from fiction due to their cognitive dissonance. the average iq after all is 100. that means half of the people don't have enough brains to even comprehend complicated and intricate issues. of the other half you still have to deal with the fact that people don't want admit they have been fooled people have this ego that won't get out of the way. so what you are really left with is 10-15% of the population who have the potential to actually wake up and effect change.

[-] -1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

well of course the liberals are as blind to the corruption as the conservatives its always the other side. that is what is funny to me. how can you always blame the other guy it gets a little ridiculous after awhile i am 34 so i can not understand how, those years older than me can have stomached this nonsense for so long. it's just ridiculous. i try to talk dems and r's about it and they still want to only blame the other side. well they are obstructionists blah blah blah well they are communists blah blah blah but i have to point out it's not like you hear the leadership for the dems saying we must do these things for the people or from the neocons saying we must stand up to the machine. people have a hard time getting past party loyalty and and accepting the fact that they guy they like lied to them outright. its hard to accept being conned. people want to hold someone on a pedestal as an exemplary model for what they want to see in humanity and they end up imposing this ideal on reality they forget the rest. that is the problem with cult of personality worship. this is why i hesitate to lead. i don't need to be alpha 1 and don't really desire it what i desire is real, practical, meaningful change and a country i can wake up in the morning and be proud to be apart of. instead i have to wake up in the morning and see shit that makes me wanna take my computer and throw it through a wall what kind of way is that to start your day? i know i am the exception. that my passion and conviction is not like other men i see this clearly now. but all i want is leadership who can give it to us straight. these are our problems, these are our potential solutions lets talk. but instead we get a steaming heaping bucket of shit with a side of tyranny. i mean do i really have to do everything my self in this life including guide the freeworld??? it's just laughable really. the only plan for america is the dismantling of america and the new world order. i am so sick of the new world fucking order it's making my head spin. and yet... and yet still there is no one articulating a plan for america for 5, 10, 20, 50 years down the line. so yeah thats my rant for now.

[-] -3 points by WSmith (2033) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

This can apply here as well:

So all the Cons have to do is sandbag another presidency like they did with Carter and Clinton and you fools think Dems are the "same as the old boss?"

Do you realize how incredibly simpleminded that makes you? How incredibly happy it makes Cons and their 1% Same Old Boss?

[-] 4 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 1 year ago

All hail the Democratic Party!

War is peace!

Ignorance is strength!

Freedom is slavery!

HEIL!

[-] -2 points by WSmith (2033) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Who do you work for? Or are you a dittohead?

[-] 7 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 1 year ago

I'm a loyal member of the party! All hail the leader! Down with the enemies!

All hail the Democratic Party!

War is peace!

Ignorance is strength!

Freedom is slavery!

HEIL!

[-] 6 points by gnomunny (6287) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Your input has been missed by some of us, PK.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

Damn fine forum-post 'PK' and for you (and all) - "Surviving Progress". It's a brilliant 2011 Canadian documentary film loosely based on the excellent short book 'A Short History of Progress', by Ronald Wright and it will simply speak for itself though I'm not at all sure how long it will be available for :

veritas vos liberabit ...

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[-] -2 points by WSmith (2033) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Reciting like a parrot with exactly the same understanding. Is this a self-loathing breakdown or what passes for political debate from the true-believer Reich.

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[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

Or in your case, it's apparently all about wedges.

You sure do like to drive them home.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/13/the-hypocrisy-of-hannity-over-the-new-nsa-surveillance-scandal-is-endemic-of-a-bigger-problem-video/

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/13/sen-lindsey-graham-believes-in-reading-and-censoring-peoples-mail-but-not-an-assault-weapons-ban/

http://www.alternet.org/belief/christian-right

In a way you're luck I'm in the middle of rebuilding my system, or I would show how the current "security" issue has direct ties to the Carlisle Group.

I'm not surprised you didn't notice.

[Removed]

[-] -3 points by WSmith (2033) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

You dummies just discovered Orwell's (he's the author) 1984. Do you realize how incredibly ignorant and simpleminded that makes you?

Big Brother is here, in the Private Sector (that's the people your RepubliCon Cult worships).

http://www.thenation.com/article/174746/modern-day-stasi-state

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[+] -5 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Longing for the return of Bush? Well you won't have long to wait i hear Bush III is around the corner. I see your laying the ground work to help Jeb win the White House just as you and yours helped George win it. Damn shame about all those people dying I guess you don't give a shit about that, as long as you get to feel smug.

[+] -5 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Peter stuck his head up his ass and swolled up so big he can get it out so he's stuck there smelling his own crap, like Nader.

[-] 2 points by WSmith (2033) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Time Wasters.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ed-snowden-the-spy-industrys-bernie-madoff-class-w/

Perhaps knowing that these Private Spy Contractors are working with Corporations to Sabotage Public Protest Organizations [ like Occupy Wall Street ] to defuse public descent will get some outraged people organized and motivated!

[+] -5 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Are you a low information person Peter? It seems so because the stuff you write yourself is crap.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Your a crack WillSmith...lol

I mean for you to call anyone "simpleminded" while promoting partisan politics and trying to co-opt this recalcitrant, grass-roots movement into the dem party is

Not only the height of hypocrisy, but of stupidity as well

Please put up another TROLL graphic in your reply to me

You & Bensdad do that so well, and I get a real kick out of them

~Odin~

[-] -3 points by WSmith (2033) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Don't feel left out, you're included above.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Yes I'm sure that I was included in your little mind's twisted critique

I will wear that as a badge of honor considering the partisan co-opter that it is coming from

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

Hey Odin, keep up the fight! This is from a fantastic Truthout article;

As Lance Selfa makes clear in his book, Democrats: A Critical History, people need to understand that the Democratic Party is where progressive movements go to die. This is evident today in the union movement which made tremendous gains when it remained independent of the Democrats, but since joining the Democrats has seen its power and membership dwindle. It is also true with the civil rights, women's, environmental and peace movements.

[-] 6 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

This excerpt from the same article is a wonderful analogy to my goals;

Every wave on the ocean that has ever risen up and refused to lay back down has been dashed on the shore, but it is the very purpose of a wave to rise up, because once it rises up above the horizon it finally has the perspective to see that it's not just a wave, that it's a part of a mighty ocean. And the sharpest rock on the wildest shore can never break that ocean apart; they can never wear that ocean down, because it's the ocean that shapes the shore. That's what we're starting ... With wave after wave after wave crashing against that shore, we shape it to our vision.

[-] 6 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Thanks for sharing that very beautiful analogy

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

Windy, you are an excellent writer imo... & you get it... how would you rewrite this ?

An Occupation on the Edge of Prosperity…

We have many problems that not only led us to this state… but also lie further ahead… Changing our government will help no doubt… but we still have much more to do…

Why is it that much of today’s corporations, government bodies, court systems, etc. so in-festered with illegal and selfish activities? Is it simply greed? Or could some survival be involved?

We have many problems ahead, and the primary one is job opportunity.. Do we really need 10′s of 1000′s of Health care managers telling our doctors and medical staff what they can or cannot do?… adding trillions to our healthcare costs? … When the Democrats held Congress, they wanted to centralize Healthcare, they had the votes, Obama stopped it… why?… He implied.. I am not going to put another 14% of the population out of work in this recession…

We have also intentionally created a disposable economy… we design built-in failure… so demand replenishes itself… creating mountains of trash… Is that solely for big profits… or can it also be for survival?

Why did we create the biggest building boom in the history of the country when we knew it would eventually collapse? All for jobs… Now granted, Greed plays a big part… as does crime…

How do we fix it?

Change the government?.. yes I agree… replace them all… but then what? We need to advance… We need to be the government….We need to change what we consider valuable… And when we have done that we need to expand it such that there is no need…

Personally I agree with the ideology of the benefits of capitalistic free-enterprise… how-ever I also see the failures of it…

I also agree the ideology of the benefits of common and shared property and resources… and also see the failures of it…

Do we compromise? …Seems a bit unworthy of a People who put men on the moon… I know we can do better…

Let’s think of the opposing Ideologies… the dreams… One reaches for Individual Freedom & Economic Opportunity … while the other reaches for Economic Freedom & Individual Opportunity …

Why do they need to be different, why one or the other? I think we should reach for it all…

Up to this point in time… most everything in a capitalistic system evolves around “economic wealth”….

Is Art not a wealth? Is Knowledge not wealth? Is Health not wealth?..

It is argued that wealth is created when we do labor to transform something worthless into something useful, into something that can be later traded…

Teaching a child to read is also preforming labor… is also useful… is worth something… it is wealth… how-ever it cannot be traded as a commodity… not an economic wealth… but it is still wealth…

Why do we need to evaluate these non-economic Wealth’s to economic realm ? Seriously, Economic Wealth is merely economic… the buying, selling, trading of crap….

Designed to turn into trash once paid for… Designed to fill our Seas with Garbage… Can we not do better than this? …

Our concept of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) does not measure health, happiness, education, or civic participation.* Where is Gross Domestic Wealth (GDW) ?… We need an advancement…

We have an opportunity to expand wealth beyond mere economic terms, and therefore we have an opportunity to expand currency. Why is revenue contribution based solely on economic income? What does one’s economic income have to do with cost or contribution to society?

Or a corporation’s cost or contribution to society?

Would not it be more accurate to base revenue contribution or incentives on provided jobs? That’s what we really need…

Would not it be more accurate to base revenue contribution or incentives on provided good health? That’s what we really need…

Why do we all need to work in factories? Soon robots will do that all anyway…

Why can’t we paint pictures, write books, invent and discover new vaccines, research and learn whatever we want to..?

In simpler times… everyone had a slot they could fill… there was a need for everyone to participate… everyone had opportunity & purpose…

technology & efficency is changing the old ways…. as new technology is doing our work for us… it is also forcing us to evolve … we need to learn to share, to be benevolent…. to demand equal opportunity, participation and health for all…

a poor consumer makes a poor consumer…

why are even the wealthiest companies worried ? .. because their customer base is disappearing … and they know it… we need to evolve, we need to advance… we need to get enlightened…

the war machine continues to advance… why ?… I can not think of a better business model… build products that blow up… products that immediately need to be replaced… is that too far fetched ? … I mean really.. how many different ways do we need to invent to kill each-other ? … it’s all about cashflow.. economic exchange …

Is it simply greed ? … or is it survival…. trying anything to keep the system going ?

Expansion of governmental positions… Expansion of Legal positions and new Laws on top of new Laws… visits to multiple Medical Specialists, simply to treat a common cold… All for survivial… trying anything to keep the system going… trying anything to keep people employeed…

the answer is truly simple… we need a larger consumer base…. we need a healthy consumer base…. we need to create new opportunity… we need to create new resource… we need to invest in people…we need to invest in culture… we need to invest in that what machines cannot replace ….

We need to reach beyond mere economic wealth… we need a Renaissance…

Is Articulation not wealth?.. Is Integrity & Pride not wealth?.. Is Spare time not wealth?..

If an enterprise creates new jobs… creates new consumers… how is that not as “importent” as providing revenue ? … how is that not as “valuble” as providing revenue ? how is that not adding wealth to the society?

If an enterprise destroys jobs… how is that not removing wealth from society?

Free enterprise and competition does work… and works very well to keep economic exchange moving… however, in our modern world it is not enough… We need not replace it.. We need to build on it..

If we are going to solve these things… we need it all … why dismantle or replace anything that works ?

Why become distructionists ?…that leads to little gain…

The economic wealth based system works, it has worked very well for many, many years… let it continue… but let’s not allow it’s institution to deprive us of additional systems waiting for discovery…

Privatise Prisons ? … so we want to create an incentive for more unjust laws to be written… so more can be broken.. to expand the market of buying and selling people’s freedom ?…

Privatise education ?… higher education is privatised … Is it working for the masses? .. many have multiple degrees and little hope for jobs… personnaly I believe privatising education is a promising idea… but not for economic profit… we need something new…

We speak often of “sharing the wealth”… the current economic wealth based system’s do that… they have stock holders they share wealth with… and that is good… it’s bolsters the economy with healthy consumers… but it’s not enough…

Feable attempts to keep people surviving thru unenployment compensation helps… but what does it really accomplish? Is that what we want… a new social class that sits around and watches tv all day?…

We bail out the big banks, but not the once employed consumers… where will that lead?… just postponing the collapse….the banks are too frightened to invest in unsure development…

we need more… we need to invent new opportunity…

The exodus of the church from the impoverished communities…is but another example of a failing system..

The philanthropy dilema … we are losing worthy solutions because of bottom-line profits … many benevolent inventions, discoveries & research programs do not get funded because of promise of little profit margins… and in economic down-turns there is less and less charitable resource…

What if we elevate what “share the wealth” means ? What if we “share the wealth” by allowing more wealth’s into the picture ? .. providing more transactional systems… more exchange, more currency in circulation… we will see an increase of healthy consumers…

What if we had a “Social Wealth”… and we treated it differently …. not as tax payer subsidised “do good” programs… but new additional systems with capitalistic incentives and gains?

What if Social Wealth enterprises could borrow from the FED at the same rates the banks do? … or even at lessor rates…

Would new Social Wealth enterprise not create new consumers? … supporting not only the social based economy but also the economic profit based economy alike? …

What if Social Wealth enterprises had their own Reserve Bank .... that supplied funding for Social enterprise & Industry ... just as the FED supplies funding for Economic enterprise & Industry ?...

Why not an additional Social Reserve Bank that acted along side the Federal Reserve Bank ?....

How would we do it?…

Could we not have a “Gross Social Product”, a GSP … based on how much currency has been added into the economy through Social Wealth enterprise ?…

Of course we can… why mix tangible and intangible product ?… or tangible and intangible wealth ?….

Why tax the tangible wealth with the intangible needs ?…

We can make the “intangible needs” an industry.. a self-sustaining and profitable industry… we simply need to provide the venue… the resource to allow it to happen..

Why put the burden of supporting needed social programs onto the economic wealth producers when social wealth producers can create wealth also ?…

There truly is a brave and prosperous new world ahead… We simply need to open the door…

“The mechanics of the Occupation of Social Wealth” is coming soon…

[-] 4 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

We need a Renaissance. As I was reading your post I remembered reading an article that i posted here over a year ago. Medical experts from Vanderbilt University realized that antibiotics were not profitable enough, therefore not only would there be shortages, drug companies had little incentive to research and develop new ones. It was more profitable to sell meds that were taken daily and this example applies to other issues.

Humans have struggled to survive throughout history. Darwin showed the world that all life is based on survival of the strongest, with the weak left to die because there was no way to help them. The struggle was so difficult, all effort had to be focused on survival of each individual. This is clearly seen in all of nature, including humans.

Capitalism today is the pinnacle of human advancement if humans are bound my nature, and dog eat dog is the only way to exist. The many wonderful products of technology were primarily created by this way of life. During my youth, the Soviet Union was considered equally as powerful as the US, but capitalism proved superior to communism because of the advancements of technology. Incentive, or greed, was a more powerful force for inventions and efficiency. Now capitalism and its mindset appears to become dangerous to most everyone, as the greed inspires the strongest few to, "win", the race that began with the cavemen.

Can humans rise above the laws of nature? Can humans, together, agree that the Renaissance we need is to commit ourselves to "Protect the Weak"? There are already many instances where humans donate time and money to help those in need, and they experience good feelings inside themselves after they do. If all humans were free from the survival instinct, the stress of their own survival, what would happen?

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

on a side note.... I once met a guy that owned a pharmaceutical company... and I asked him why the hiv drugs were so expensive... he said because of the patents.... and he was bound by law to charge a minimum price... so his company accidentally manufactured cosmetic defects (ie same substance.. but mis-marked or stamped pills) ... so they could provide them at a discounted rate....

Windy...et all.... I am trying to get some movement towards supporting a Social Reserve Bank.... and I really could use some help in the written material... I am a math guy... and my language skills have much to be desired imo....

what do you think?.... can we rewrite my first attempt at introducing the concept... to gain more interest and support ?

can we as a group start this as a project ?

thanks

[-] 3 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 1 year ago

I do not believe we are accurate in our assumptions about human nature. First of all, "fittest" does not always mean strongest -- it can also mean most flexible or adaptable. Second, we as a species have focused all of our developmental training and teaching on only two aspects of our nature -- the physical and the mental. Our spiritual nature was briefly seen in truly enlightened teachers (Buddah, Christ, etc.), but their teachings were distorted to be used as foundations for religions that had little to do with actual spirituality. And nearly all of us (at least in the Western culture) are emotionally immature.
If we can all accept that there is more to us than we know and then mine our own depths to understand how interconnected we all are, helping one another then becomes as ordinary as helping ourselves.
Governments and Religions and Corporations neither know nor care about people. They have morphed into separate, soulless entities which, like the giant computers in the book Colossus, are ruling their own worlds in which human beings are irrelevant. Unlike the two computers, however, which really had no need at all for human beings, these governments, religions and corporations cannot survive without the very people they ignore. We humans can agree to work together within our local communities (where everything actually happens) to achieve independence from governmental support. Building a foundation by linking with each other across the country, we can eventually starve the beasts, as it were, while laying the groundwork for a coalition of individual communities ready to take their place in a new way. Not a single person needs to die or kill another to make this happen, but it takes personal time, attention and focus. It is difficult. It is peaceful. It is (r)evolution.

[-] 10 points by LeoYo (5854) 1 year ago

A National Cooperative Community composed of a National Credit Union, National Mutual Insurance company, and a National Cooperative Employment Service could be the germ that unites millions across the country and facilitates trans-partisan cooperative voting focusing upon the support of shared principles over partisan differences.

[-] 2 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 1 year ago

http://www.alternet.org/activism/how-transition-movement-could-be-happening-your-town

Here is some information on people that are doing what they can at the local level.

[-] 2 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 1 year ago

A good goal for change from the national level down and attempting to use the current systems. If nothing else, it will distract all the talking heads from what is going on at the local levels :) The word "nationalized" would keep them going for months!

[-] 2 points by LeoYo (5854) 1 year ago

Actually, it would be neither up nor down, just horizontal in being inclusive and unifying. Nationwide institutions such as the National Cooperative Bank and the U.S. Federation of Worker Cooperatives already exist but their attention is not inclusive of individuals who aren't currently affiliated with cooperatives. Not everyone sympathetic towards cooperative goals can risk leaving a well paying job to become a worker-owner in a new venture and not everyone has a local credit union that they can join. Creating an overall National Cooperative Community that everyone can become a member of through either its credit union or its mutual insurance company provides the opportunity to strengthen the cooperative institutions that already exist while bringing many people into the cooperative experience who otherwise wouldn't be apart of it. It would be the beginning of a truly nationwide democratic community in control of its own financial well being and this would go over into local politics through initiatives as well as state and national politics through trans-partisan cooperative voting.

[-] 1 points by MikhailBakunin (13) 1 year ago

I hope one day I can put in work to make something like this happen

[-] 1 points by MikhailBakunin (13) 1 year ago

I'm sure you are aware of the work of Gar Alperovitz and Richard Wolff?

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (5854) 1 year ago

Yes, I am.

[-] 3 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

P2011... good post.... so what do you think.... is it possible to help move towards spirituality by simply providing a mechanism that makes it easier ?

[-] 3 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 1 year ago

I continue to promote two books by Eckhart Tolle -- A New Earth and The Power of Now. There is also Excuse Me Your Life Is Waiting by a woman whose last name is Grabhorn (Linda?), which talks about energy and attracting what we project. I am as sure that I am a spirit within a body as I have ever been of anything. Our society does everything in its power, however, to keep us from the quiet space needed to experience that inner spirit, because once enough people allow their inner being to make choices, absolutely everything changes. Evolution means moving into something totally new; Revolution means revolving -- i.e., going around in circles.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

:) ... well I believe in the inner spirit also.... however ... I know many of the people see it as religion ... and using your great analogy .... trying to help those who are not looking for help... find awareness of their inner side.... could keep us revolving for eternity .... ; )

yet.... providing a venue ... that people may partake in that moves them to their spiritual desires ... is a doable thing imo... and so maybe more evolutionary ?

btw... I prefer to consider revolutionary & evolutionary ... very much the same ...

[-] 1 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 1 year ago

I think of evolution as a natural process that will happen no matter what, whereas I think of revolution as anti-something with no predictable outcome. Matter of semantics, as so many things are, and not really germane to the conversation. :) IMO, governments, like individuals, must see that nothing is working before they see any reason to change; the present chaos is necessary to demonstrate that nothing is working, and could very well serve as the impetus for a shift in consciousness.

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

IMO, governments, like individuals, must see that nothing is working before they see any reason to change;

yeah... I agree.... however, how far bad do we need to see it go before we recognize it... ?

but... just so that we don't get too discouraged .... I grew up in the 60's and remember a lot of the 50's ..... we are definitely way further ahead today than back then.... we are moving forward ... jus stop fucking around ... speed it up !!!! ;~)

[-] 2 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 1 year ago

Where is your first attempt for editing? I like working with words and would like to give it a try.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

right here..... pls do... P2 ; )

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Please let me know how familiar you are with the Venus Project. I am very interested in discussing ideas and solutions. I have to come back and read this again, just a little busy atm.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

I havn't the VP for a couple years... I liked what they were doing then... I didn't see it as a large scale solution .... but definitely progress ... I check again when I get a chance

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/technology/live-world-data

http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/technology/latest-technology/viewvideo/6/food-production/omega-garden-hydroponic-system

What people most fail to see about VP is that Fresco will be the first person to say his designs will look like nothing special compared to what the VP children will produce. He says this is not utopia, as that can never be achieved, but it's a system intelligently evolving. It's about finding the best way to manage resources to guarantee our future, and support the growth of Earth's population, with the intention of enhancing freedom, barrier-free equality and democracy.

[-] 4 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Thanks, you too windy..."keep up the good fight". I've heard that refrain before, "The Democratic Party is where progressive movements go to die."

For having agreed with you though, I am now in line for one of bensdad's, or one of his multimen's... (WS) king size TROLL replies...lol

I guess when you are desparate, there is not much else that you can do since trying to justify the 'same old' is quite impossible

~Odin~

[-] 4 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

We are all desperate together. The Democratic party establishment is brilliant in their ability to foster hope that they could possibly be, "the answer", to solving America's problems. They must be brilliant because history has proven that, "The Democratic Party is where progressive movements go to die", yet many intelligent people continue to put there hope in them.

My long time Republican friends are just as intelligent if not as informed. They aren't aware that the Republican Party establishment intentionally deceives them, they believe American government ultimately has pure motives. They aren't aware that many of the extremely wealthy are allowed to avoid/evade taxes because the wealthy have written tax laws to allow them to legally get away with it. I point out offshore tax havens, other loopholes, and the fact that the wealthy receive their income through capital gains which means they aren't paying any payroll taxes at all on their 15% tax rate! Why we allow these "crimes" makes me furious!

These republican friends also have an argument that I can't defend. They believe the government wastes billions of dollars and their first priority is to stop the waste. Of course they are correct, waste is inexcusable with today's technology. They believe the repub establishment's claims that the waste is caused by entitlement programs, and I desperately try to inform them that it's not the truth. The waste is intentional by our own government to enrich select cronies.

"Bringing home the bacon" must end. In my area, protecting military bases is the number one factor to be elected. In other areas, giving big corps money to locate in their area is the most important factor. It is absolutely absurd that this continues!

[-] 6 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I have found that the best way to argue the case for the raison de etre for Occupy is by starting the conversation with something like

'This is not about left vs right, but rather about right vs wrong, and then cite examples. It is about a government that answers to corporate and banking interests first and foremost, which is usually to the severe detriment of the rest of us.'

By starting the conversation with points that most people can agree on, you are more likely to reach them

Even though, it is unlikely that you will sway a person's long-held beliefs readily, it is important to plant the 'seed' for him/her to think that maybe, just maybe there is something to your argument

Support for military spending is a big problem, and it is no coincidence that bases and military contractors are spread out throughout the country. That fact has made it it difficult for elected reps to vote against that spending

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

WA ... good post... let me add ...

  • both party's have their problems ahead.... and many from both sides have sold out... have been corrupted...

  • hell...around one third of ALEC's legislative members are members of the Democratic Party.

  • further... I also know a lot of Republicans... but I don't see today's Republicans' as the Republicans' of 10 years ago.... the gop is now being run by the koch's Tea Party ... they just call themselves Republicans ....

*and koch's Tea Party ... is not the original Tea Party....

  • further... the spending (or often called waste).... is an act of desperation... attempting anything to keep money moving in the economy... and in an effort to provide jobs....

  • for because of today's technology & global industrialization... it is taking fewer and fewer people to perform the same work..... honestly we as a society do not need everyone to work anymore....

  • however we do need everyone to be-able to live... and live comfortably ...

  • I believe that the Democrats want to solve through the expansion of social programs... meaning spending....

  • I believe that the Republicans have no idea what to do... so they simply resign to putting faith in big business to fix things..... (and we all know where that leads) ....

  • We either need to learn to Share ... or we need to Socialize ..... I prefer sharing ... ;)

[-] 2 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

The attempt to keep money moving in the economy and provide jobs is BS. The money is moving into the hands of the wealthy and they are hoarding. If you want money moving in the economy, you don't allow the payroll tax break to expire. Every penny of that money would move through the economy. You don't propose chained cpi if you really want money to be spent instead of hoarded. Apparently student loan interest rates will also be allowed to double. There are many examples that prove their motive is NOT to keep money moving in the economy.

It's loud and clear that dems have the moral high ground on social programs, but the visible results of governments actions make it clear that the wealthy have no intention of sacrificing anything at all.

[-] 3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

take money were it is hoarded and put it back into the system

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

also...

" The money is moving into the hands of the wealthy and they are hoarding. "

I agree ... no argument there

[-] 0 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

???? wow... I guess I did not communicate that well ....

WA... step back... and look at the whole picture from a non-partisan view...

  • why is the government expanding ? ~ the only reason... is as a means to reward friends & donors with jobs....

  • why is healthcare management expanding ? ~ the only reason... is as a means to reward friends & donors with jobs....

  • why is defense spending always expanding ? ~ the only reason... is as a means to reward friends & donors with jobs....

*etc... both sides of the isle are playing this game ...

  • If you cut back 100% of the Federal & State spending.... where would the economy be ?

  • how about... 50% ... 30% ... 0% ... ?

  • jobs are disappearing ... plain and simple.... many to globalization & many to technology....

  • in 50 years ... or less... robots will perform 80% - 90% of our labor....

  • how is big business going to make that any different ?

[-] 4 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

I focused on only one aspect of your original post, because I know intelligent people that strongly believe that waste, (I don't consider spending on the poor as waste), should be stopped. These repub friends are deceived by the establishment, Kochs, fox news, etc, that the waste is primarily because of a nanny state.

Looking at the whole picture, (I am registered as a NPA voter), I am very non-partisan and agree both sides are playing this game, including agreeing with you about the ONLY reasons for the increased spending. If both sides are responsible for wasting billions, it is by design. A combination of more policies to help the poor, along with more taxation of the rich is my desire, but I see the opposite.

Billions of dollars wasted because of the unaccountable way government spends money is also a very significant problem. This could be solved but the government doesn't want this problem to be solved, as you know. The problem I have discussing politics with repubs is the problem of waste, but I have no expectations that fake talking points from the dems will help solve the problem.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

the bullets purchased, we send to rebels will waste the opposition

[-] 3 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

also profits for the people selling bullets

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

destruction is so easy to manufacture

[-] 3 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

its only money

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

1st... let me say... that I think it is a sin that our world allows anyone to go hungry, w/o shelter, healthcare or education....

This could be solved but the government doesn't want this problem to be solved, as you know. ...

well... I agree.. yes it can be solved ....and in different ways....

but... I really do not think our elected officials have any idea of how to do it....

my preferred way....

  • would be to recognize that Capitalism as we have known it ..... a system based on sole monetary expansion & profit.... is beginning to fail....

  • and failing not because... of concept or even greed as much... as it is because we have gotten to the stage where production is so efficient take it takes few to work it... and therefore it is not creating as many new jobs as it is removing....

  • this is why non industrial type industries have expanded so much.... such as... software.... security on top of security systems... gathering of useless data ontop of data...healthcare managers ontop of the healthcare managers of healthcare providers ..... design of defense systems that never get built.... etc.... All simply for trying to create jobs.....

  • a glorified welfare state ... of high salaries...

  • it truly would be far less expensive to simply pay everyone to go to school for-ever....

  • anyway how do we fix it.... well .... If I had a magic wand.... would I wave Capitalism away tomorrow & implement some form of socialism or any ism ?

  • would you ... or any of us ?.

  • I doubt it.... there is no system designed or agreed to enough that we could put into implementation tomorrow....

  • so ... we must phase things in....

  • now I can think of a zillion things that I could do that would help people.... it might not make me rich or turn much profit.... but it would definitely be a worth-while thing for someone... as well as myself....

  • could I ever get funding for such as venture today ?.... fat chance... investors want large quick profits...

  • think of how many worthy inventions, new medicines, social services... etc... that never have a chance at getting started... simply because there is not enough profit in them....

  • so there is the opportunity ....

  • all we need to do.... is build another source of funding that has interest in a "social wealth" as opposed to "monetary wealth" ....

  • and with that source of funding... zillions of new jobs could be created with the sole purpose of helping others....

[-] 4 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

Good post. I like your ideas. It struck me after reading your post how unique this moment is in history. One of the positives of capitalism was an evolution of basic survival instincts that have always existed, with hard work often resulting in positive achievements and financial security. Working so that one could eat had previously been almost universal, and still is for many.

Now we speak of creating jobs just as something for people to do with their time. The survival instinct of competing is no longer necessary. Technology has already reached the point where zillions of helpful things could be done for people but capitalism actually prevents it. One could point out that capitalism spurred the technology and I would agree, but capitalism is well on the way to reversing its positives.

Mankind needs a different carrot. The love of money has to be replaced. When enough people want to do zillions of things to help other people without being rewarded with money, getting funding for your venture will have a different meaning. You shouldn't have to worry that you might fail and lose everything causing you to become homeless and hungry, nor should any investor. Your basic needs are assured.

"Social wealth" as opposed to "monetary wealth". New jobs created for the purpose of helping all of mankind and our home planet.

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

" I believe there's only one way to take back our corrupted government; Unify around the Human Spirit! "

I like your way Best .... ; )

[-] 1 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 1 year ago

There is the new idea of crowd funding -- many people in agreement contribute small amounts for the purpose set forth in the request. I do not know much about the details, but it is a great idea. I no longer give to the campaign people, but many of the groups still ask for at least $3 every time I open my email, so they must get a fair amount in the wide net they cast.

Government waste is not on the people supposedly benefiting from "welfare," but rather on the inability to work together in the implementation and management of a given policy. The second problem is that we don't allow for mistakes and corrections because one misstep and the opposition cries loud and long about how disastrous it is. It is always inefficient to try and accomplish something with one hand tied behind your back and the other one crippled. Can anyone imagine the world we want to create well enough to describe "a day in the life of a future family"? A screenplay based on this vision might get some attention.

[-] 1 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

Government waste in the past was somewhat excusable because of the numbers of government employees necessary to simply keep track of it. That is not true now and government waste is mostly intentional to benefit groups or individuals.

Every dollar spent by the government could be recorded and accountable, but many in the government likes it the way it is now.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

thank you....

anyway.... it would be quite simple to implement.... compared to such monumental tasks of taking over the government... or taking over the banks.... etc....

  • many of the States are already moving towards some form of State Owned Banks as a way to help the State's economies....

  • I would think that We could help organize that as a united system ... just as the Fed does for the private banks....

  • say we put together in joined effort with all the States ... a "Social Reserve Bank" with the purpose of providing capital for the building of Social Wealth ....

  • which has the exact same opportunities to extend money that the Fed enjoys....

  • I believe if done well... the Fed would actually support it... for the future potential of removing the burden of paying for social systems via the monetary profit-making systems.... thru taxation as done now....

  • in essence we can build a new industry of social services & social wealth's that actually contributes to the economy as opposed to costing it....

[-] 4 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

I am surprised to read that many of the states are already moving towards State owned banks. I would be pleasantly surprised if that turned out to be simple to implement. I would be shocked if the Fed actually supported it unless it's already part of some plan for removing burdens to themselves.

The Karen Hudes story continues to dominate my thoughts. Human nature and capitalism have evolved in this direction, right along with government. I hope you're right and I would support your ideas.

Why do you say taking over the government is a monumental task when we the people are already suppose to be the government?

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Or just get rid of money. It hasn't always existed, we actually created it quite recently, and it was a tragic mistake. So a world without money is very possible, but people think money is necessary.

If there was no money, there would be like 95% less crime. Only crazy people would be causing real problems. We would understand that they need help, not punishment, and we would not need prisons.

It's a carrot, but not the kind stuck people can reach.

[-] 1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

@Phanya2011 "A first step toward this idea might be to stop trading all currency as if it were a commodity; it is supposed to be a medium of exchange, not a product to be valued separately from what it represents."

Currency (fiat, which isn't money, as you're aware), was also not designed to be banked/horded. "Current", kind of describes the intention of it, that it needs to flow. Stop the flow and you disrupt the system. Currency was convenient but now it's just plain poison.

[-] 1 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 1 year ago

A first step toward this idea might be to stop trading all currency as if it were a commodity; it is supposed to be a medium of exchange, not a product to be valued separately from what it represents.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

I agree ... but good luck.... we got another hundred years to go for that

[-] 0 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

Why do you say taking over the government is a monumental task when we the people are already suppose to be the government?

well.... what's supposed to be ... and what is reality are usually different things....

I believe that there are only three ways to take back our corrupted government....

a) ... we can buy the government... as the corporations have demonstrated proof of concept....

b) .... we can have a full scale civil war... which would kill a lot people... and may very well last a long time....

c) ... we can implement Direct Democracy ... and let the process take it's course...

anyway it's a big task.... hell ... we have corporate judges embedded in the supreme court for life.... which does needs amended.... we have tons of bad laws that need reversed... and we have many powerful groups whose only interests are driven by greed... regardless of who and how much they harm....

so maybe quicker to simply fix the immediate economic problems ... and begin cleaning up the government (voting the corrupt out).... while working to return the Constitution back to and for the people...

[-] 3 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

I agree that what's suppose to be and reality are different concerning our government.

I believe there's only one way to take back our corrupted government;

Unify around the Human Spirit!

This spirit is evident every day in many ways. Whether there's a tornado in Oklahoma or a Hurricane Sandy in New York, the human spirit that's expressed after a disaster is a very impressive power! This spirit occurs daily in smaller and individual ways and it's constant and dependable. It's a fulfilling experience to help those in need, and share the stories with others. Why can't we recognize the whole world's a disaster and together unify this human spirit to aid the disaster victims. We are many who can relate!

Democracy is currently a disaster! Complexity breeds fraud and the world is full of it. As Americans are awakening to massive corruption, expose the proof of a Global Conglomerate and the truth of their deeds and plans. Cry out for aid for Democracy as if every second counts and lives are at stake! Sustaining this will be solved after Democracy is pulled out of the rubble and the Rule of Law is established and includes everyone.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

I could get a job working for the weapons industry

spring

[-] 6 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Your point Matt?

~Odin~

[-] 4 points by gnomunny (6287) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

What, it's not crystal clear? heheh

Welcome back, my friend. Well, I'm assuming your back home. Are you?

[-] 7 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

No...it's not clear to me! I never know whether i should twinkle or stinkle him.... lol. Thanks, but I'm still in Alaska, and will be until late July. See my recent comment on my big incongruous, thought provoking day in Anchorage.

Lots to process

~Odin~.

[-] 5 points by gnomunny (6287) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

I certainly will.

But it'll be tomorrow, so I've bookmarked this page. I was just in the process of logging off for the night. It's two hours later here, heheh

Goodnight, my friend.

[-] 6 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Good night g

~Odin~

[-] 4 points by gnomunny (6287) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Well, you'll have to point me to your comment since I didn't see it in this thread.

And in my humble opinion, Matt should usually be twinkled just because he's such a good-hearted guy.

[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

Hey 'g', strongly recommending "Surviving Progress" to you. It is a 2011 Canadian documentary film loosely based on the excellent short book 'A Short History of Progress', by Ronald Wright & will simply speak for itself but I'm not sure how long it'll be available for :

''The film is structured as a series of interviews, interspersed with footage from all over the world. The film is said to be "inspired by" Wright's lectures. Unlike the book, which focused on ancient civilizations, the film focuses on the present-day impact of civilization, including the impact of concentrated wealth. The underlying message here is that current models and strategies of economic growth have no practical connections with the real world. That is to say, the lack of an ethical underpinning in modern global economic practices is directly responsible for the overconsumption and exploitation of natural resources to the extent that the increasingly more probable future population collapse would take modern society right along with it.'' from : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surviving_Progress . Be well 'g'.

fiat lux ...

[-] 5 points by gnomunny (6287) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Thanks, I'll definitely give these links a look-see today and give you my thoughts. And be on the lookout soon for my long-awaited Monsanto thread, in which additional links will be strongly encouraged. I'm sure you won't fail to deliver. Be safe and well, my friend.

Solidarity.

[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

Solidarity 'g' & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxHG3jUqdQ0 ~*~ and also fyi an 80 minute video that speaks for itself & moved me deeply http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fYE9YoM51k & you'll get why !!

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6287) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Finally got "Surviving Progress" looked at about mid-week. It seems like "a day" can turn into "a week" surprisingly easy around here. ;-)

An excellent and thought-provoking doc, I must say. And so much to take away from it; the concept that we're trying to run software on hardware that hasn't changed in 50,000 years. Perhaps materialism and greed are simply manifestations of our hunter-gatherer instincts.

Progress traps. Industrial monoculture came immediately to mind.

The Internet as "a unified social brain." It might be the very thing that saves us from ourselves.

And finally, Dave Suzuki's excellent and dead-on accurate comment: "Conventional economics is a form of brain damage." How very true.

And you know, perhaps the world, and us as a species, would have been far better off if we hadn't possessed that singular characteristic that separates us from all other animals. Perhaps we should have never asked "why."

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

''Why'' ?! Geddit ?!! LOL !!! Li'l to add to your excellent and though provoking summary of 'SP', bar :

quod me nutrit me destruit ?

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6287) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Ah yes. 'Spirit.' Always worth a listen, my friend.

Next on my watch-list: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fYE9YoM51k

I'll let you know what I think. See you in July, heheh.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

'Dennis Kucinich' !!! Bang On The Button 'g' !! The lecture is great and the 'Q&A' is excellent too ! + Also adding to your righteous woes with this eye opening piece :

Solidarity 'g' ~*~

pax ...

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6287) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

That's a hell of a coincidence, 's66'. I just finished reading that Truthout article on this thread here:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/i-saw-bill-moyers-interview-lawrence-lessig/#comment-982085

What I'll never figure out, though, is . . . how do you find the time?

Solidarity, my friend.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Yes Matt has always been a gentleman...just a bit perplexing to me at times

I lost that comment for now, but will try to find it

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6287) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

"A bit perplexing?"

"At times?"

Heheheh, you're a master of the understatement. But a gentleman, absolutely (you and him). And a confession: 75% of the time I have no idea what he means either. ;-)

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Yep the 25% that you do understand what he is saying is about my level too

I look at it like, you can get whatever you want from what he says

~Odin~

[+] -8 points by WSmith (2033) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Keep doing what you're told, TROLL. Keep weakening and dividing the People so the Private Sector can take over even more. Sleep well Saboteur.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

You live in a twisted World Smitty where you believe;

Obama and the dems have been working hard for the 99%

"War is peace!"....PeterKropotkin

"Ignorance is strength."....PK

"Freedom is slavery."...PK

And of course...Odin is a TROLL, and..I, (that's you!..lol) am a good guy for trying to co-opt this movement into the dem party, along with the likes of bensdad

You can rest assured that i will sleep fine as I know who I am, and I have never taken criticism from someone who I regard as a 'lesser' seriously

Almost forgot..."HEIL"..Willy!...lol...PK

~Odin~

[-] -1 points by didgiridoo (-10) 1 year ago

You shouldn't play their game. Don't call anyone a troll. Just explain the position of Occupy, the dreams of Occupy, etc... with strong well formed arguments. There's not need to insult others here, even when they insult you. Actually, I would say that the more you get insulted by another user, the less you should be tempted to insult back.

We can change minds if we show others we are polite and have strong arguments. We will never change minds with confrontation.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

You aren't changing anyone's mind. You create another ID and have faux conversations with yourself or the other scum suckers.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

It's like given politicians term limits

that just means we don't know who the hell we're voting for

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I consider myself a fairly good judge of character, hence I will not waste my time on someone who is here for nefarious reasons

For anyone who belives out of 'conscience' though that having Occupy involved in partisan politics, yes your advice is good

~Odin~

[-] -1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

can't the movement co-opt the democratic party ?

WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, and IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Most definitely yes, some of us could go over there and raise hell trying to co-opt them, and i have suggested that to bensdad (Smitty's partner) more than once saying something to the effect of

He could then satisfy his desire to "co-opt" something while being useful to Occupy and the struggle at the same time

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by BrianMid (132) 1 year ago

Could have, too late now.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

what happened ?

[-] 1 points by BrianMid (132) 1 year ago

The majority in Occupy took a different way.

[-] -2 points by WSmith (2033) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Disclose one solution, TROLL!

All you do is SLIME!

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

There's no reasoning with a partisan red baiter whose only goal is a subversive one, so I will not waste my breath, nor will I take any of your crap Willy

~Odin~

[-] -2 points by didgiridoo (-10) 1 year ago

I disagree. There's reasoning with everyone. Sometimes, it just takes time so patience is in order. There's more reason to engage people not receptive to Occupy then people who already are. Preaching to the choir serves no real purpose. You need to stay calm, assertive, logical, and engage people you disagree with using strong arguments. Don't fall for their games. Don't start insulting others. With patience, we can create the 99% and create a better world. But, for that, we have to engage even those who we perceive as our most vile enemies. Those are the ones we have to concentrate on. Good luck.

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

No, you're a multiple ID cockroach.

[-] -2 points by WSmith (2033) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

You are the "crap."

What about IRV? Then Ron or Rand Paul could run on the Lawn Gnome ticket.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Once again, coming from you, I take your little pop culture critique as a compliment as I know you are not awash in integrity

~Odin~

[+] -4 points by john32 (-272) from Pittsburgh, PA 1 year ago

Really good post

[+] -5 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

"Most" is low balling it.....

[+] -7 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Low information people often re-post entire articles written by others while hardly ever expressing their own views. Why is that? Perhaps they are stupid and ill informed or perhaps they are political hacks bent on grandstanding, whatever the reason the 1% welcome their help in electing Republicans like Bush in the past and for their future help in electing another Bush or equally supportive person so that their grip on power is not challenged. There are of course those that do what must be done and hold their nose and vote for whoever has the BEST chance of defeating the Republican, thank God for them.

[-] 0 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

Do you think that you may be just a little fixated on one half of the 'Janus-Face' of US politics? See 'As the obvious has become obvious – the faulty economic policy emanating from Washington (D&R!), the corrupt economy that spirals wealth to the top and secret trade deals that empower corporations over people, among others – the opportunity for change escalates. We can see it happening on many levels. Action by the people will make transformation to the new economy a reality.' from the excellent article - http://www.nationofchange.org/washington-dc-starting-see-obvious-1371132039 - Never Give Up Trying To See Through False Choices! Occupy Democracy!

[+] -4 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

You and others like you are holding back OWS and the people's movement because instead a full throated attack on our enemies you seek opportunity to inflate your ego and build your political party.

[+] -7 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

The thing that you seem to not understand is that those people who do hold public office do things that affect the public. When Republicans hold office stupid useless wars are started and people die, you may not care about that. When Republicans hold office wages are held down with a union busting federal government but you may not care about that. When Republicans hold office people die from treatable illness because they cannot afford to pay but you must not care about that. There are many aspects to this movement and much work to be done but when it comes to voting any who confuse the issues of the importance of removing Republicans from office well they are a blessing to the 1% and working full time in their army against the 99% just as Nader did in 2000.

[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

That is rather personal and unpleasant. You should look at that link again.You seem to think that the Democratic Party gives a shit about the 99% and is somehow not controlled by corporate and banking interests. Hate to break it to you but the Democratic Party is controlled by the 1% and stopped caring about the 99% a long time ago :( & eg. - http://www.nationofchange.org/secret-government-vermont-bi-partisan-1371648026 . The Republican Party is doomed but the problem is The Democratic Party has been co-opted by the 1% too. Never Give Up Trying To See Through The Illusion! Occupy Democracy!

[-] -1 points by john32 (-272) from Pittsburgh, PA 1 year ago

and what a perfect way that is to never get anyone elected that would actually make a difference. Sound logic.

Why is it always "he did it first...so we can do it too" crap? When will people grow up and realize both of these parties are completely screwing over this country. When will they stop squabbling for the lesser of two evils...and realize that we could do so much better? We could elect someone that would actually change something.

[+] -7 points by gameon (-51) 1 year ago

Tea Party people are anything BUT low info voters and citizens. They know what is being perpetrated upon the people of the USA via the current adminstration.

[-] 7 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

Lolol @ Tea-bagger Twaddle Speak !!!

Errrrrrr ... so JUST "the current administration'' ?!!

Remember Iraq or have you got the memory of a goldfish ?!

Here's an idea - read a little & look past your R/D fixations :-)

''An Astroturf campaign is a fake grassroots movement: it purports to be a spontaneous uprising of concerned citizens, but in reality it is founded and funded by elite interests. Some Astroturf campaigns have no grassroots component at all. Others catalyse and direct real mobilisations. The Tea Party belongs in the second category. It is mostly composed of passionate, well-meaning people who think they are fighting elite power, unaware that they have been organised by the very interests they believe they are confronting. We now have powerful evidence that the movement was established and has been guided with the help of money from billionaires and big business. Much of this money, as well as much of the strategy and staffing, were provided by two brothers who run what they call "the biggest company you've never heard of". Hmmmm.

verum ex absurdo et fiat lux ...

[+] -6 points by gameon (-51) 1 year ago

Now is what is important. dhs , fast and furious, benghazi, the irs, nsa.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

Hmmm, 'gameon' ?! Gameover !! Yawn, see my edit and link and GF's link & WakeTFUp dude !!!

''The Tea Party movement is remarkable in two respects. It is one of the biggest exercises in false consciousness the world has seen – and the biggest Astroturf operation in history. (Now Note) These accomplishments are closely related.'' {from my link above & please don't forget to read GF's link too}.

vale ...

[+] -4 points by WSmith (2033) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

You mean the GOP's scandal envy witch hunts, while they do nothing about JOBS, but concentrate all their efforts on an INSANE bill to ban 20-Week Abortions. Jobs are what is important to former fetuses!

[+] -4 points by gameon (-51) 1 year ago

Jobs are the result of a healthy economy,......creating jobs is not the " job" of the govt unless they govt intends to grow itself.

[-] -3 points by WSmith (2033) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Let's just hope you have no dependents.

[-] -3 points by WSmith (2033) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Tea Baggers are the Poster Children for Low Information!

But do tell us all about the Obama perpetrations, all we get out here is that damn Liberal Big Media so we don't hear nuthin!

[+] -5 points by gameon (-51) 1 year ago

tea party people knew what obama & co were from the begining. Its the tea party people that are fighting back against the irs. Low info voters had no idea and are still keeping themselves in a state of delusion.

[+] -5 points by WSmith (2033) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

OK, I'm following you, what are the perpetrations? What were "obama & co" from the beginning? What did the "low info voters" have no idea of? Let us know man, tell us!

[+] -4 points by gameon (-51) 1 year ago

obama recond ( or non record) when he was in the Illionois state house, his non record in the US senate,......his associations ( rev wright, bill ayers).

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Fuck the tea toler shills and the libertopians and Chris.

[+] -4 points by WSmith (2033) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Gotta quit drinking your own bathwater.

[+] -8 points by factsrfun (6445) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

chicken shit little punk