Forum Post: Debunking 9/11 Myths
Posted 9 years ago on Aug. 6, 2014, 11:53 a.m. EST by struggleforfreedom80
(6584)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
A couple of people here actually believe that 9/11 was done by U.S. authorities. This is nonsense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1Gc_Wyotzw&list=PL33450708F59EEC8B
The United States have for several decades bombed and occupied other countries, staged coups, murdered millions of people, supported tyrants etc etc. This, of course, creates a lot of hatred among the ones suffering from these policies. This accumulated in a few angry individuals deciding to take revenge by using the same methods the U.S. government has used: murder and terror.
That's the reason 9/11 happened.
Focusing on this "9/11 was an inside job" nonsense is also very destructive, because it diverts attention away from the important things: environmental issues and concentrated private power etc.
Forget for a moment everything you've heard about conspiracy theories regarding 9/11. Like watching stage magic, it's sometimes the "how could it be done?" that serves as impediment to accepting that maybe it was.
First, one needs to understand the post WWII history of the United States. There's the stuff we are all familiar with, Eisenhower's military-industrial-(Congressional) complex for example. The "Red Scare" served as fear motivator for spending and for civil rights abuses like COINTELPRO.
In addition, some American industrialists still resented the New Deal and considered it Communist. Fred Koch, father of Charles and David, cofounded The John Birch Society which considered anyone and anything who didn't agree with its extreme oligarchy friendly views to likewise be Communist.
All of this served to create the foundation of what is now referred to as the Deep State. The Deep State is, at its core, an unholy alliance between the US intelligence community and Wall Street. There are numerous private contractors and estimates on how IC money is spent today suggests 70% of it is outsourced.
9/11, as NSA whistleblower Thomas Drake's superior told him in 2001, was a gift to the IC. Fear again motivated and drove industry. The problem, of course, there simply aren't enough terrorists and therefore work to keep the Top Secret America machine, which though it has had members such as Carlyle Group's Booz Allen Hamilton since 1917, grew exponentially after 9/11.
Meanwhile, hardliners among the Joint Chiefs and the CIA, seeing the economic improvements of the 90s, saw that Americans were losing their stomach for war. Limited, typically airstrike, conflicts were all that the US public would tolerate. In their view, climate change and peak oil around the corner, that had to change.
Osama Bin Laden was, at least in 1987, a US-backed "freedom fighter" working against the Soviets in Afghanistan. This is especially important because the CIA has in the FAQ of their website a statement claiming that they never maintained a working relationship with him. Forgetting for a moment how they may have had attorneys define the words that they used, it's a blatant falsehood. The events of the film, though altered for dramatic purposes, Charlie Wilson's War, depict what should be common knowledge: the US trained and armed the mujaheddin as proxies against the Soviets for much of the 1980s.
In the 1990s, the Taliban visited the US, made contact with energy corporations, and sought to become the recognized governmental authority of Afghanistan. Clinton considered, but refused, we are told, because Hillary mentioned the Taliban's abysmal human rights record especially where women are concerned. This refusal later resulted in a failed assassination attempt in Asia.
Now the history of the CIA. After WWII, when the OSS was transitioning to become the Agency, Nazis were brought over to aid the fight against Communism. They went to work in various places...rocket technology, propaganda at Voice of America:
http://m.thenation.com/blog/179057-seven-decades-nazi-collaboration-americas-dirty-little-ukraine-secret
...and at Fort Detrick on project MK/Ultra. In reality, MK/Ultra was several projects, that included things like "negro attitudes," child personality development, mental illness, all sorts of drugs and substances, delivery methods of same, voting decisions, and lots more.
http://mccoyote.wordpress.com/mkultra/
Some of the more disturbing things that came out of this and similar programs tools decades to see the light of day. There is still a great deal we don't know. In 1995, some victims testified before Congress as related to human radiation experiments. It become clear that the programs that the US Senate assured us had ended in the 1960s continued much later.
Note that one subject, who was a young girl at the time, was used by Dr. Luther Wilson Greene to blackmail decision makers when he and his team feared that funding might dry up. This is one small glimpse into the power, the corruption, and audacity of some of the people we assume are subject to Congressional oversight.
While the results, from what I can tell...I have become an amateur historian on behavioral modification, were not what we might expect from watching Hollywood films, the obvious is true: if you are able to inflict enough pain on a person, you can generally get them to take some course of action that they normally would not. In addition, merely isolating and traumatizing a person--that alone!--can cause mental illness and hallucinations. Apparently, human beings did not evolve to live alone.
This entire body of knowledge from human experimentation that we still to this day don't know the full story of.
What do we have so far? Motive: financial. And I haven't even mentioned how Afghan heroin exports went from less than 200 tons a year to nearly 6,000 from 2001 to 2012. The Russians largely enjoyed profiting from it before 9/11, so you can get an idea why they're a little sore at us, though according to one analyst at Boiling Frogs Post, NATO throws the Russians a piece of the action.
We also have psychological profile: they brought in and learned from actual Nazis and passed this "wisdom" down. Some of the things done are nearly unbelievable to most people, even as what happened at Auschwitz had been.
We have opportunity. The CIA, the Pentagon, and NATO itself, had access to people like Osama Bin Laden and other men who became leaders in All Qaeda.
That leaves weapon. Here's where it gets confusing. Rather than explain it, I'll just link you to a pair of articles regarding a technology that the FBI consulted with some Russian scientists on in 1993 when they sought solutions to the David Koresh/Branch Davidian/Waco standoff. Pay particular attention to how the CIA had been tracking Smirnov since the early 1980s. The US obviously had something similar. There's more, but I'm attempting to keep this brief.
http://mccoyote.wordpress.com/apc/
http://mccoyote.wordpress.com/acpsycor2/
In addition, as the OP noted, Al Qaeda struck back in part due to the US' own violent tendencies. This is, to the kinds of people orchestrate these false-flag operations, a feature, not a bug. The more trouble that they stir up, the more attention it gets, the more unquestioned tax dollars they steal. Part of behavioral modification is making existence so unbearable that desperation and emotion makes the target easier to manipulate.
As to who... The 9/11 Commission Report itself mentions the behavior of several senior officers. Among these, A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard. Again, I'll let you read it for yourself. Also note that Buzzy's brother was Inspector General at CIA and that he did not recuse himself.
http://historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=a.b._(_buzzy_)_krongard
In addition, both brothers were instrumental in getting Erik Prince's Blackwater a no-bid contract:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/17/us/17brothers.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Note that Prince is the son of a founder of the Religious Right movement. {Many of the aforementioned attitudes have historical precedents and get passed down generationally.}
Some may also recall that Cofer Black was Mitt Romney's foreign policy expert during the 2012 campaign. Is it any wonder then he wanted to double the size of Gitmo?
Then there's Graham Fuller, a CIA officer who worked, guess where, Afghanistan during the 1980s. Most interesting there, Fuller was married into the Boston Marathon bombers/Tsarnaev family for a time:
http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/05/22/boston-and-the-cia-snafu-part-ii-cias-graham-fuller-a-deep-state-rogue/
Why might that be relevant?
http://reason.com/archives/2013/05/05/new-report-blows-the-lid-off-americas-re
In the news now, it becomes obvious that the CIA is falling on its sword for Bush and Cheney by taking full blame, or most of it, for torture. But see the difference just days before the Boston Marathon attack?
There is Deep State malfeasance happening around us all the time. It is disguised as accident or the oppositional actions of others by design. How to tell the difference is not easy.
Destructive? Yes. But what is destructive to the Deep State is good for America, the 99%, and Occupy.
My draft "Activist's Primer on Counter-Intelligence":
http://mccoyote.wordpress.com/activists-primer-on-counter-intelligence/
Chris Knall
''Considering that sociopaths make up 2% of the total population, and considering that a sociopath is responsible for several times more damage than the average person ... then… training people to recognize and avoid sociopaths would eliminate a serious percentage of human suffering.'' from :
Many thanx for your insightful, highly referenced comment above. Good luck with all your endeavours.
multum in parvo.
Shadz,I don't trust this person come2theparty.Why is this person trying to get people to think #OWS is like a picnic in the park with teddybears?I asked the person why they did that and got no answer.Now the person is trying to force me not just to simply fall silent about my views on the subject of the political assasinations,Iran/Contra.the S&L Affair,Nugan Hand,Enron-Tyco-Worldcom,BCCI,9/11/01,The Great Recession.et.al.,but to either renounce my beliefs or stay off the forum.I am willing to not discuss these matters here,but I won't change my mind.No way Jose.I might as well say right here and now-I don't believe extraterrestrials or lizard people exist.I don't want to engage with people who believe those things,on those subjects.I am willing to listen to their arguments politely and examine whatever evidence they have to back up their claims-but not here.I think they should absolutely not be excluded from #OWS just for believing those things.I am against excluding anti-truthers,as long as they are willing to agree to disagree.Anti abortion people-same thing.Gun nuts,Libertarians.Evangelical Christians,and almost every other person out there I can agree to disagree if that's what it takes.Who is this person and why are they doing this?
Thanx harry - redeemer of the word ''trashy'' ! I've had his number from the get go but I remain unsure as to just how many 'numbers' he's running here !! Not gonna bump his shiT any more than I have to but do always dig your comments & solidarity at you and yours & .. I'd rather be Truther, seeking - than a Liar, lying !!! Bed time for me where I am but g'night with this fyi :
vale ...
VQP-You are in my heart,someway,
That's the thing, Truthers don't seek. They just lie or repeat lies.
Re. ''Conspiracy Theories'', consider the following :
a) When two or more people plan to commission a crime, there exists by definition - a 'conspiracy' and
b) Therefore any theory about who did it, or how it was done, is by definition - a 'conspiracy theory', so -
c) The question is then not whether you are a conspiracy theorist - but for which particular 'conspiracy theory' you may find the evidence most compelling.
d) Finally, also do try to calmly further consider :
WhoTF made u any kind of arbiTer of Truth or logic here, btw Trashy Troll ?! LOL !! WhaT a conceiT !!!
ad iudicium ...
trashy solves this problem of logic by saying he does not believe the government theory either??? of course he will not tell us what he believes in. he is really not socrates reborn but a sophist reborn - his spelling skills are weak - mine are also so i can't really beat him up on that score. his ability to think logically is another story. now what i wonder is why someone like yourself - someone who's skills are so obvious - would try to argue logically with and idiot?? if possible i would like the explanation in greek!
Yes that fool is a sophist of the highest order but right now my focus is on how and why comments & replies re. 'The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising' are getting 'removed' from other more important threads !!! Be careful NOT to give that Trashy-Energy-Vampire any more energy !! I'm NOT a happy bunny right now !
vale ...
i like you when you are mad - for sure more fun than the laid back peace out greek guy! not sure i can agree with the highest order line - i would imagine a high level sophist would be much harder to spot. and you are right about the energy sucker
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I don't agree to disagree
that is a cop out
Rodger Wilco,MH.
thanks
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What are you talking about specifically?
This sounds like another false accusation deigned to make me look bad. Sad really.
I never said you shouldn't be allowed to voice your opinions. I certainly never tried to ban your conspiracy theory speech like shooz would have or jart. Even though what you talk about is against the forum rules, I don't mind you talking about conspiracy theories here.
If I tried to shut down your voice, please indicate how, when, and where? I didn't bring 911 talks back unto this forum shadz66, flip, and struggleforfreedom80 did. So, yes, I'm against conspiracy theories so of course if someone brings them up on the forum I will voice my opinion against them.
Similarly, I hope you voice your opinion on all the subjects that matter to you.
Agree to disagee.Just drop it.I will pay for your Abortion.If you don't want to have an Abortion.I will adopt your problematical child,and pay for that child to go to the College of His or Her Choice.If neither of those olive branches can reach you,we can continue the conversation SOMEPLACE ELSE.
Well, why did 911 conspiracy theorists start the conversation here in the first place. I agree, conspiracy theory nonsense should remain on conspiracy theory websites like those from Alex Jones.
Let's agree to disagree and never mention stupid 911 conspiracy theories here again. Agreed?
Sorry.Truthers did not bring the subject up.We are not forbidden to do so,but Jart asked us not to.The subject was raised by somebody who is opposed to discussion of the subject,questions about the subject or requests for further investigation.The reason why they denounced Trutherism instead of UFOlogy,Scientology,Lizard People,Agenda 21,people who believe in the Illuminati, Anti Abortionism,or Zeitgeist is perfectly clear.Agree to disagree,or come up with some other way to co-exist.Or not.Whatever.
You didn't say - but I caught the drift ( ? )
The thrashing masks did it?
The Anti-conspiracist did it it's selves?
Shocked?
No.
Whatever.Everyone wants to drop it.So that is the best thing to do,IMHO.
The truth will never be given to the public - especially with the current state of government. So yeah - I see no reason to keep on with the subject. Slapping the thrashing masks for it's BS is always just a given on any subject/issue as that is all it is here for = BS.
Once again,you are correct,DK.Do I want you more than I need you,or do I need you more than I want you? It's a Conundrum.Not that there's anything wrong with that...
Ahem ummm So - changing the subject then - Right. Lets see - ahhhh yes. This should do nicely.
Rand Paul stealing a page from Mittens failed presidential campaign?
( hint - lies )
Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 05:43 AM PDT The Daily Show: Democalypse 2016—Coif to the Races
by Jen HaydenFollow
Rand Paul has a striking resemblance to Raggedy Andy.That's why the locals around here call him Raggedy Randy.
downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, which ...
I don't know what happened on that one.Alot of Russians think Putin and his minions are responsible for weird,creepy events like the Moscow Apartment Bombings.He was a KGB officer,so you can't put anything past him.The panic caused by the Apartment Bombings helped him win the election which was held soon after.The Russian voters were about to Shitcan the guy,but the fear and panic turned things around for him.What he could get out of destabilizing Ukraine further by shooting the plane,I don;t know.There may have been a VIP they wanted to kill.Other people say it was an assassination attempt on Putin because he was on a flight at nearly the same time,in the same area.You don't see many whistleblowers on stuff related to V.Putin,that's for sure.
have I been too hard on the US government
I'm sorry, I know they try to do the right thing
Serious organizing.
Renneye had a good idea = post links to various social groups and business and such. All groups - business - organizations that are fighting for a better world for all. Post their Banners and links here on the site as an aide to networking/organizing putting together efforts and support.
One addition I might add to that idea - is to present a list of issues for all to sign onto in support of.
Like
Move to amend = removing person-hood from corp(se)oRATions and getting money out of politics.
OSTA = one subject at a time legislation. To keep legislation clean clear and singular purpose driven. To keep garbage from being inserted to pass along with otherwise necessary legislation.
Ending fossil fuel subsidies and supporting implementation of clean energy.
Putting teeth into the oath of office to insure government working on behalf of the population ( real living and breathing biological Humans ) - making it easy to fire a REPRESENTATIVE ( not overlord ) and get them replaced - very possibly the ousted facing criminal charges along with any outside entities and people who were involved with subverting the office.
Good ideas.I am hoping to somehow promote FTF community organizing somehow.I have a few ideas,but I need to travel in person to another area to see if anybody is interested.Time for some serious bootstrapping,IMHO.
You should ask jart if she would be willing to put banners on the site. You know her better than any other occupier here. Renneye's idea is good I think.
Psychotic Narcissists don't read memos! They just continue to push their own insanity - scuse - programs - so yeah - insanities - which in their delusions they see as being golden - if only for them self.
Currently - it would seem that TPTB behind the curtains pulling the strings want one party to dissolve - leaving only one to control. But in getting there have the self destructing party do as much damage as they can for TPTB prior to their complete demise.
Rick Wolff has issued his Economic Update for August.He is usually quite pessimistic and cynical,but he says he sees signs that America is changing.We gotta start organizing.Seriously.
They will keep both of them alive for as long as possible. Without two options, there is no finger pointing and the entire thing falls apart.
All that aside - it looks like TPTB that are pulling the strings of the GOP are really sucking tail pipe. I mean - REALLY - they seem dead set on committing the GOP to political suicide. Kinda goes with their plans for the world though = murder the world. They are really scraping the slime off of the bottom of the barrel in trying to present candidates for office. Funny thing - maybe the world is catching on = Koch money the kiss of death for incumbents?
The whole situation-everything-is like a crazy,nightmarish dream.The Republicans seem to have a crack team of public relations people who sit around brainstorming ideas about how to alienate vast segments of American voters,and coming up with ways to further alienate voters who already hate the Republican Party.They seem to have not got the memo-when you're in the hole-STOP DIGGING.
Good - as always - your small group of land owners would be a gr8 place to establish positive growth.
The truth was already given to the public. We know what happened on 9/11. There is no mystery. There is only mystery in the minds of moronic conspiracy theorists.
And there you go making personal attacks on those who disagree with you.
Just an attack on a moronic Twinkle Team infiltrator. You weren't simply disagreeing with me, you came back to the site specifically for your usual squabblings and babblings. You started insulting me for no reason, not the other way around.
You attack everyone you disagree with ( that "would" be pretty much everyone ) - sooner or later - as soon as you get frustrated enough - you even stop trying to pretend as you go blind with rage - at which point you will even start admitting to the lies you have made up to that point in time.
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Don't just come here to babble and squabble please. Try to lay off personal attacks and contribute some ideas for a change.
I'LL bet you couldn't type that comment while keeping a straight face. All you ever seem to do here is make personal attacks. But hey that is you after all trashing masks = no substance & all BS.
[-] 2 points by DKAtodayandtomorrow (23) 11 minutes ago Well slap me with a 2x4 - but that is a gr8 idea. Getting funds from Humanities and Environmental and Justice groups etc to place their banners ( links ) onto the site. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
~~~~~~~~~Thanks DKA. You know, I'm pretty sure these ideas came up in one form or another in the early days of OWS, but the emphasis at that time was that this forum was to be only a vessel for information sharing.
That may have been true at that time. But my personal feeling is that OWS/this forum, needs to evolve to another level to ward off stagnation, as we've seen happen. Still keep the information sharing alive and well, of course...but get to the next level, as well. We (this forum) and humanity alike need something to work towards. Else, what's the point?
Continuous process improvement. It is what is needed in all things. Or as like you say " whats the point? " To be better today than we were yesterday and be better tomorrow than we are today. Life is growth. Lets live.
Getting back to an earlier point of yours = " this forum was to be only a vessel for information sharing."
I see no conflict with that point of view = a place of information sharing - and having diverse groups that are promoting a better world for "ALL" placing a banner/link on this site. I see it as more of a continuing growth and opportunity to network to building support and efforts.
How very refreshing, DKA.
I see no reason why OWS couldn't do this.
OWS roots are firmly in the ground. Time to grow some solid branches and be a huge part of building "A Better World for All".
I feel like I should be far more poetic at this point. But, I'm just far too sleepy. Lol!
Take your clothes off and do a primal dance of joy. Neanderthal style.
DKA should ask jart about the idea for banners. Dan worked with her closely during his moderation stint. He knows her better than anyone here.
But Thrashingmasks you are her close and personal friend - Right?
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I'm not sure jart was into putting adverts and stuff at the beginning of OWS. Too capitalistic of a act. Maybe now she wouldn't mind. She's not really into anarchy anymore.
I was going to mention jart's position on that in my last post, but thought I'd leave it out for now.
There's no conceivable way she wasn't approached by interested parties/groups/businesses that wanted to get in on this, on the ground floor. I can see why she wanted to protect the movement, though.
Hopefully she's changed her mind. Not because she doesn't want anarchy any more, but because much has happened in the last three years. The landscape of the forum and indeed the world has matured. I would think/hope that jart sees that we do not need to be purists to move forward...and there's more than one way to skin a cat. Ewwww! What a horrid saying. But, you know what I mean.
jart is not a mystery. She is all over the net discussing issues on a daily basis. Her views are pretty clear. She programs at Google. Well, she checks code and handles all the .com addresses that Google owns. There's a lot.
She's certain not an anti-capitalist purist these days. She works for one of the biggest companies in America, and one who's way of money is collecting user data for the government and the NSA. Nothing wrong with that, just saying she is far from her purist anarchist roots of yesteryears.
We don't know much of jart or why she does what she does. She's largely a mystery. Unfortunately.
I have no way of knowing what her job entails at google.
It would be interesting having a conversation with her, though, about the collaboration of co-ops, etc., and this forum/OWS, among other things.
That's it for me tonight. Dreams beckon.
goodnight
Iv'e been posting nothing but substance all day. Can't say the same for your little babbling interventions.
You have been posting nothing of substance? All day? I agree. You have been posting nothing of substance for almost three years now.
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Actually, this whole 911 resurrection came from a discussion with shadz66 and flip a few days ago which then prompted struggleforfreedom80 to write a post called "Debunking 9/11 Myths", then I started a few posts and comments about the subject. You can verify dates on the postings if you want.
In any case. I thought we were going to agree to disagree and bury these ridiculous 9/11 conspiracy theories back into the grave where they belong.
Whatever you say is correct,I'm sure.
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Why me thrashingmasks - why me? I am on the outs with jart - remember? You did say so quite vociferously.
You on the other-hand keep telling everyone that you are a close and personal friend of jarts. So here is your chance to prove it. You take the idea to your friend.
Ha ha!
Come on man! You know I'm the one who hacked the system, killed the Twinkle Team crap, and brought us to where we are today! Isn't this place nice and clean without GirlFriday, shooz, and ZenDog crap?
Anyways, jart is on summer vacation....
Having you trying to portray yourself as a dozen or so different users is not a plus in my book.
Your constant squabbling, Democratic Party support, and abusing your moderation powers to ban almost all the users here is not a plus in my book.
You will forever be remembered as a Twinkle Team dork troll.
give it rest
Get that dork troll monkey off my back and I will.
sorry
I had not looked to see that this is a conversation
You are and have always been the only twinkle/stinkle team to invade this site. When I was a moderator ( notice past tense ) the majority of my bans - were ( past tense again ) You - and banning you 100 or 200 or 300 or even thousands of times does not constitute banning more than one individual = YOU.
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BS - and what you commented to matt? You are the troll monkey on your own back. This conversation has gone on to this point only at your stupid insistence on being the jerk that you are = thrashingmasks.
oh dear
Matt, please, get that monkey dork troll off my back. Someone has wound up that Twinkle Team infiltrator and he's starting his squabbling and babbling again!
OK - So - seeing as how You can not send a note to jart. And seeing as how I do like the idea of growing actions "FOR" the people. I sent this message into jart. Whether or not it will be received proactively - I do not know.
Message starts below.
There was an idea recently presented for the growth and maintenance of your forum as well as growing good social movement/action. Networking - giving people direction to responsible business and organizations - while also getting those businesses and organizations working together to also grow. By doing so perhaps gain money for the site as a facilitator/advertiser.
https://occupywallst.org/forum/lets-pay-for-good-moderation-with-site-donations/#comment-1042685
OK. Thank you. Let's hope jart is into it. Renneye's idea is good.
Didn't do it for you thrashingmasks - so don't thank me.
What you did is important. You did it for OWS. So, I thank you for that. Doing stuff for OWS is much more important than doing stuff for me. Your gesture is appreciated.
What I did - anyone could have done - well anyone other than you anyway.
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Yes, and since sociopaths are often either schizophrenics or conspiracy theorists, we need to be aware of these two brain afflictions in order to treat people appropriately.
LOL - RighT !!! Look who's Talking !! So how many monikers are you on now ?! Your preference to - believe the 'Official 9/!! Conspiracy Theory' is duly noted - once again, as is your constant 'schizoid desperation' to talk about this matter here, where it is actually discouraged, probably for good reason.
http://rememberbuilding7.org/10/ ;
http://www.ae911truth.org/index.php ;
''Did 9/11 Justify the War in Afghanistan ?'' by Dr. David Ray Griffin : http://www.globalresearch.ca/did-9-11-justify-the-war-in-afghanistan/19891 ;
''Too Many Years Of Lies : From Mossadeq to 9/11'', by Dr. Paul Craig Roberts : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36195.htm and also fyi, consider ...
''Reality Check : More Americans Are “Rethinking” 9/11?'' by Ben Swann : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36196.htm .
et temet nosce ...
Ironic I would consider most people in upper Congress to be sociopaths.
Why did you get the bump on the reset?
I use two monikers at the moment to circumvent a forum bug.
Did others get that bug? Sometimes when I post a comment it will read "removed" just after I post and won't show up for others. If I try again it keeps doing it. If I change users I'm ok for a bit, then it does it again, so I change back and I'm ok again.
Did you experience that here? Not the same as a ban. A ban is similar, but your comment appears with 0 points. This bug writes "removed" but the comment remains at 1 point.
Yawwwn Trashy & once again : http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/08/08/the-occupation-is-forever/ ~{~
vale ...
It's nice that you change your source. Always giving links from one place gets tiring and is not very serious.
Again, another good link.
How do you think the Israel Occupation will or can be stopped? Any opinions or ideas of your own on this?
I don't believe any pilot preparing to fly a Boeing 757 would take off at any airport anywhere without completing the Preflight Checklist.This includes manually correcting the altimeter and aligning the aircraft.Even a pilot who has a suicide target in mind would not do it,because a pilot cannot control an aircraft unless the on board computers are configured,which can't be done unless the aircraft is aligned at the gate.AA77 was not capable of aligning while in flight because civilian aircraft have no need of such capabilities and are not equipped for it.Also,no pilot can control a Boeing 757 without a functioning altimeter.A Boeing 757 would not even be able to remain airborne for 1/8 of a mile in such a case.Only in the case of a suicidal pilot planning to destroy the aircraft upon takeoff could that have happened.Supposedly the flight was a normal one until it was hijacked (AA 77),so that scenario is ruled out.How would you feel if you were an innocent supervisor at Boston Center,or NEADS,or FTSB,or Indy Center? Wouldn't you want the cloud of suspicion hanging over you cleared away? Also,many retired commercial pilots, military pilots and ATC's are willing to express doubts about the data provided by the FTSB,as are privately licensed pilots.People who are currently employed in commercial aviation as pilots or ATC's,along with people in the military who have the same jobs won't discuss any aspect of 9/11 avionics.Why do you suppose that is? If the things Pilots For 9/11 Truth are saying are not true and they are insane,why have their licenses not been revoked?Could it be that somebody does not want these matters to be examined in court when a pilot hires a lawyer to fight revocation of his license? Why aren't the architects and engineers worried about losing their licenses? Certainly academics can expect to be shitcanned for Trutherism.What can they do about it if they are?Academics who have been shitcanned would never go to court because they would be forced to settle.The situation of other professionals is different.If their license to practice is revoked,they are entitled to their day in court.
Excellent.
LOL-I started out as an outraged person trying to debunk the notion that 9/11 was an inside job.After 9 years of research I still have not found any evidence that The Official Story is anything but a tissue of lies.
nice disinfo piece. hack. why don't you do the rest of us a favor and go play around on the nyt website.
An occupier is a hack now just because he isn't gullible enough to believe in nonsense from the Truth movement? Most people who started the Truth movement have already admitted they were wrong. Like Dylan Avery who was one of the key proponents who started it all with his crappy film Loose Change. He now admits it was all bunk. Get with the times.
wrong as usual fatty - here is dylan - "Where I am now is, I've whittled it down to a very basic statement that I think a lot of people can agree on: There was a cover-up of some kind," Avery says. "The only question is what they were covering up, how far [up] it goes, how deep it runs, and how many asses would be on the line if the truth actually came out."
He says he still "support[s] the movement," but he also acknowledges getting "sucked in" deeper than he should have been, into a "hardcore mentality that it was almost too easy to get into back then, because the war had just started and everybody was just so pissed off."
Another full of sense...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FbLjd1heb0
Here is a guy who saw the light.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfQrGvFVIgE
Dylan doesn't support 911 Truth anymore. He's totally out of the movement, not even coming to rallies or anything. He just doesn't want to say it flat out because he doesn't want to get death threats like other ex-Truthers got. Leaving the Truth movement is like leaving the church of scientology. It is dangerous.
Charlie Veitch explains how the Truthers attacked him after he quit the movement. Dylan did not want that to happen.
This is a must watch video for anyone still stuck in 911 Truth lies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_UYZITc_90
Thats interesting that his "main thing" that convinced him is nothing research based at all, its that the government would be too incompetent to pull it off. Not really much proof in that at all.
You should watch the Charlie Veitch videos.
It's interesting how he got death threats and Internet attacks when he quit the Truth movement.
It shows the religious dogmatic danger of 911 Truth. Very similar to Scientology. Almost similar in thought patterns. Truthers are brainwashed, and, in a sense, very similar the the brainwashed Islamic perpetrators of 911.
I guess I was expecting something a bit more profound than the usual statement that "gubmint is ineffective".
The death threats etc, well, i guess fanatics are just that. A guy on the Buffalo Bills fucked up a few years ago and had to move town because of the death threats.
That's the thing. People who believe 911 conspiracy theories are all fanatics. They don't care about evidence. They will hold their position no matter what. Very similar to the Islamic brainwashed fanatics who caused 911 to begin with.
You have to be ignorant and misunderstand basic research to be a Truther.
I mean, let's be honest. Truthers are usually pretty dumb.
Did you see the youtube vids of Dylan against Popular Mechanics. They absolutely destroy his movie Loose Change and make Dylan look like a sad clueless lonely child without the care of a mother.
no - i try to seek out the strongest arguments on any of the subjects i am interested in - then seek the strongest counter arguments and see how they stack up. now you seem to gravitate to the weakest but i guess like seeks like. dylan by his own admission made a video as a kid and not such a bright one at that. now i did read popular mechanics bullshit - that made them look like a " sad clueless lonely child without the care of a mother.' - especially after david ray griffin took them to the woodshed. pretty sure they were looking for mommy after he finished with them. now no point arguing specifics right - you won't respond to that right - you will just mutter something about it is established fact and what if the government lied anyway - wow - you keep surprising me with your "logic" - it was fun trapping you though - thanks for that
If this were true, you wouldn't be a Truther.
Or perhaps you genuinely try, but fail because you cannot tell the difference between strong arguments and weak ones.
I suggest you learn about logical fallacies, science, proper methods of research, evidence based thinking, etc...
The arguments made by popular mechanics are actually very strong, and accepted by the scientific consensus and intellectual like Chomsky.
chomsky never read the article - and never read the counter by griffin and others. his point is different from yours. i know him too well so don't try to run that shit on me. i gotta go - i need to cook dinner for my woman - maybe if it is really good she will think i am sexy - sausage and peppers, onions, kale, beans etc - in a sauce of olive oil, white wine and chicken stock - sounds good no? can we agree on that?
Ya, when cooking sausages for a woman, I always make them a little endowed, but not too much that it would be fake. It gets them in the mood on the subconscious level.
As for Chomsky, I didn't mean he talked about Popular Mechanic findings directly, but he espouses some of the same arguments. Simply because it is common sense.
You are a sick little man
there are many key questions that have never been answered involving our intelligence community and leadership or if they were, the answers and questions were classified.
You believe struggleforfreedom80 is a paid government shill? A disinfo agent paid to keep the 9/11 lies alive? A guardian of the official story.
nope.
So, you think he is only uninformed about 9/11. Why did you call him a hack.
A lot of basic facts and surrounding circumstance indicate that, as I like to say, ALL IS NOT AS IT SEEMS. No matter what your perspective there is no way to accrue all the data on the incidents, the peripheral persons and seemingly innocuous activities that led to the final results of that day. A lot of people recognize the fact we are not given all info, and at the same time, if we recognize the huge financial increases of the already too wealthy, it goes to follow they will reinforce each other, support each other, and that progresses to wondering of their allegiances to this or any country, indeed, any but themselves. Their mutual support and backroom dealings could have accelerated the events of 9/11. The towers were inadequately structured edifices that were symbols of capitalism to other countries and located in such a way that flights nearby are common, yet here there is a feeling that there should have been response, prevention, interception, anything. Could there be the cabal of the rich dictating events to alter matters so the attack could happen? Absolutely possible. From what we see of the very wealthy they know how to make themselves indispensable. Think about it, you'll get what I mean. There is very real overlap. The same group of elite would stop Occupy. There is a thread of inhumanity between the group we know of, who will rip off workers of the means to feed their babies or get medical care in order to profit themselves, and the mindset of those perceiving of the loss of life then as a springboard for their own agendas. The concept will always be in debate. As for me, a foreign born friend told me to keep out of New York over a year before, which set me on a round of calling agencies only to be bounced back and forth, mocked, and disregarded. I mentioned this before. It could have been prevented. All my reporting did was put me on radar because they refused to investigate while they could have. There are implications there. And 'law enforcement' does not like citizens knowing or doing more than them; in this instance it got me labeled a terrorist before everyone else here. Your opinion is welcome.
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The Deep State and Domestic Terrorism grow hand-in-hand. For example, why did the unabomber want to murder university and airline executive-type people? Was it mental illness or something else?
9/11: A Conspiracy Theory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98 corbettreport Transcript and sources: http://www.corbettreport.com/?p=2594 Everything you ever wanted to know about the 9/11 conspiracy theory in under 5 minutes.
(Watch French, German, Spanish, Italian, Hebrew or Portuguese translations of this video.)
TRANSCRIPT: On the morning of September 11, 2001, 19 men armed with boxcutters directed by a man on dialysis in a cave fortress halfway around the world using a satellite phone and a laptop directed the most sophisticated penetration of the most heavily-defended airspace in the world, overpowering the passengers and the military combat-trained pilots on 4 commercial aircraft before flying those planes wildly off course for over an hour without being molested by a single fighter interceptor.
These 19 hijackers, devout religious fundamentalists who liked to drink alcohol, snort cocaine, and live with pink-haired strippers, managed to knock down 3 buildings with 2 planes in New York, while in Washington a pilot who couldn’t handle a single engine Cessna was able to fly a 757 in an 8,000 foot descending 270 degree corskscrew turn to come exactly level with the ground, hitting the Pentagon in the budget analyst office where DoD staffers were working on the mystery of the 2.3 trillion dollars that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld had announced “missing” from the Pentagon’s coffers in a press conference the day before, on September 10, 2001.
Luckily, the news anchors knew who did it within minutes, the pundits knew within hours, the Administration knew within the day, and the evidence literally fell into the FBI’s lap. But for some reason a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists demanded an investigation into the greatest attack on American soil in history.
The investigation was delayed, underfunded, set up to fail, a conflict of interest and a cover up from start to finish. It was based on testimony extracted through torture, the records of which were destroyed. It failed to mention the existence of WTC7, Able Danger, Ptech, Sibel Edmonds, OBL and the CIA, and the drills of hijacked aircraft being flown into buildings that were being simulated at the precise same time that those events were actually happening. It was lied to by the Pentagon, the CIA, the Bush Administration and as for Bush and Cheney…well, no one knows what they told it because they testified in secret, off the record, not under oath and behind closed doors. It didn’t bother to look at who funded the attacks because that question is of “little practical significance“. Still, the 9/11 Commission did brilliantly, answering all of the questions the public had (except most of the victims’ family members’ questions) and pinned blame on all the people responsible (although no one so much as lost their job), determining the attacks were “a failure of imagination” because “I don’t think anyone could envision flying airplanes into buildings ” except the Pentagon and FEMA and NORAD and the NRO.
The DIA destroyed 2.5 TB of data on Able Danger, but that’s OK because it probably wasn’t important.
The SEC destroyed their records on the investigation into the insider trading before the attacks, but that’s OK because destroying the records of the largest investigation in SEC history is just part of routine record keeping.
NIST has classified the data that they used for their model of WTC7′s collapse, but that’s OK because knowing how they made their model of that collapse would “jeopardize public safety“.
The FBI has argued that all material related to their investigation of 9/11 should be kept secret from the public, but that’s OK because the FBI probably has nothing to hide.
This man never existed, nor is anything he had to say worthy of your attention, and if you say otherwise you are a paranoid conspiracy theorist and deserve to be shunned by all of humanity. Likewise him, him, him, and her. (and her and her and him).
Osama Bin Laden lived in a cave fortress in the hills of Afghanistan, but somehow got away. Then he was hiding out in Tora Bora but somehow got away. Then he lived in Abottabad for years, taunting the most comprehensive intelligence dragnet employing the most sophisticated technology in the history of the world for 10 years, releasing video after video with complete impunity (and getting younger and younger as he did so), before finally being found in a daring SEAL team raid which wasn’t recorded on video, in which he didn’t resist or use his wife as a human shield, and in which these crack special forces operatives panicked and killed this unarmed man, supposedly the best source of intelligence about those dastardly terrorists on the planet. Then they dumped his body in the ocean before telling anyone about it. Then a couple dozen of that team’s members died in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan.
This is the story of 9/11, brought to you by the media which told you the hard truths about JFK and incubator babies and mobile production facilities and the rescue of Jessica Lynch.
If you have any questions about this story…you are a batshit, paranoid, tinfoil, dog-abusing baby-hater and will be reviled by everyone. If you love your country and/or freedom, happiness, rainbows, rock and roll, puppy dogs, apple pie and your grandma, you will never ever express doubts about any part of this story to anyone. Ever.
This has been a public service announcement by: the Friends of the FBI, CIA, NSA, DIA, SEC, MSM, White House, NIST, and the 9/11 Commission. Because Ignorance is Strength.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRV_MsbAZv4
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You support Trashy now? Traitor!
https://occupywallst.org/forum/lets-get-to-the-bottom-of-this-crap-about-conspiri/
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almost everyone here is a truther. kinda nuts and depressing. we should maybe change the name OWSTruth and combine the Truth movement with OWS.
Some of them are truthers. Some of them are also probably you using your many usernames to amke an impression that there are many truthers here.
i do not consider myself a truther - but maybe i should. here is what i think - i do not believe that those buildings could come straight down the way they did because a plane hit them. i know a few facts that cast doubt on the official story so it all seems shady to me. having said that it is also hard to believe that it was an "inside job" so i am not sure what the hell i think. i also am pretty sure that oswald and ray did not kill jfk and mlk - not alone at least. most importantly i think that it matters little who killed kennedy - the state or a lone gunman. what our government is doing is what we should be focused on - not all of the minute details of these different conspiracies. and here is the kicker - trashy has this site spinning about conspiracies - and he says he hates them. so is he stupid or is this his plan. i can't remember when there were so many discussions about 9/11 on this site - maybe a couple of years ago. i think we should try to direct this site back to the issues of the day - those that concern 90% of the population - what do you think?
I agree flip that we should "direct this site back to the issues of the day," but 9/11 ....an event that has been used to change our lives for the worse should not be a taboo subject either. It's just that until we regain control of our government, there never will be a complete open and honest investigation into it.
i agree - it should not be taboo but trashy has gotten everyone here spinning. all the while he says absolutely nothing - his usual m.o. i think we should go on about our business and let him spin
911 is the most investigated event in history. It has thousands of pages, videos, etc.. made about it. The government made a comprehensive investigation, so did third parties like Popular Mechanics. Popular Mechanics wrote a really interesting book about it.
I'm not sure what you want more.
It's been 12 years. It was investigated. We know what happened. It's your problem now if you still believe in unsupported ridiculous conspiracy theories.
Sounds to me like you don't want an open and honest investigation. What you want is an investigation that supports your preconceived conclusion.
Yes "it's been 12 years" since 9/11. So can I assume that for every year that passes, it reaffirms your belief that there was a complete, open and honest investigation? Is that really good rationale?..lol Gee it's been 51 years since JFK's assasination. You must be really sure that Oswald was a lone wolf.
The only "conspiracy theories" here are the governement's in not having an open and honest investigation.
You've been supplied with good arguments for a long time that refute your regurgitaion of the neocon lines.
Most of us here have had it up to our ears with the lies that have brought us to this unenviable point in our history...but not you....instead you become more trusting of our oligarchs. What's up with that man? Really!
It was the most investigated event in history. The perpetrators admitted their involvement in the crime. I'm not sure what you think wasn't open or honest. Others like Popular Mechanics also looked into it, not just NIST.
The people who have been dishonest around 9/11 are the conspiracy theorists who make up stuff for money. Like that Richard Cage guy running Architects and Engineers for 9/11 who goes around collecting donations but never does anything with the money except fill his bank accounts.
I doubt everyone the same and care for evidence based thinking. Conspiracy theorists have no evidence for their clumsy claims, the government does.
The official story works. It makes sense. The evidence supports it. There are mountains of evidence. It is THE MOST INVESTIGATED EVENT in history.
What exactly do you hope for? What would make you happy?
You want the government to spend millions, billions, on yet another investigation? And, when it repeats the earlier findings of NIST, what will you do? Say it wasn't fair and ask for another investigation, and another, and another, etc... until the conclusion is what you hope for?
You are smarter than this. It's a real shame you are a Truther. A real shame. I didn't think you were a gullible conspiracy theorist. Shadz66 yes, but you no.
Cloverfield is a fictional movie
the tower fell because there was a hole in the house of cards
The collapse of the twin towers has been studied a lot. I'm sure you can fine lots of good books by respected scholars on this topic. I saw a good documentary about this many years ago, I think it was this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcaz6N75mjM
"i think we should try to direct this site back to the issues of the day - those that concern 90% of the population - what do you think?"
Absolutely. I mentioned this in the above forum post.
now you have me continuing a discussion i would like to end. not blaming you but... the video is not really about my question of how it is possible for the buildings to come straight down. it would take some really fancy footwork to convince me but let's leave it there - ok? we do not need to agree here and we may find other things to disagree on - as long as we do not call each other idiot we are making progress. agreed??
Sure. I hope the honest people here will stop going on about these (ridiculous in my view) conspiracy theories, and start focusing on the important things, like environmental issues and private tyranny.
and war and building a sustainable economy etc - we agree - i have one request - i will not label your opinions on the official conspiracy theory ridiculous if you do not label mine that way........
But conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists are ridiculous. Evidence shows their stories are nonsense, yet they keep holding on to them.
you forgot to add - in my opinion - and as we all know your credibility is very low. now say your last bit. do your worst since i am done this. you discuss like a little boy - "i know you are but what am i" type childishness. unless maybe someone might be paying you to do this disruption - then i take it all back since we all have to pay the rent.
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What does my credibility have to do with whether or not Truthers and their ideas are ridiculous?
Don't judge ideas because of the proposer, judge ideas on their own merit. Whether you think I'm credible or not should not be a factor. You should always doubt the proposer. Consider that no one is credible a priori. That way, you check what people say, their facts, etc... Care about ideas, not people. Check those ideas, are they right, etc...
Thing is, I could be right, and your best friends who you find super credible could be wrong. It's not about credibility of the proposer, it's about evidence backing up ideas.
once again we disagree - at least to some extent. first of all my response was to the short bald guy not you. your credibility is much higher than his. so is putins but that is another story. secondly when my government tells me that they must spend more of my tax dollars on aircraft carriers because russia is being very aggressive in ukraine - i am very skeptical. they would have to work hard to convince me. on the other hand when my good friend in turkey tells me that syrian rebels are allowed to roam freely in turkish border towns i tend to take it as truth. and i understand from that that the u.s. wants was in syria. in the same way when bibi says - PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU: Israel accepted and Hamas rejected the Egyptian ceasefire proposal of July 15th. And I want you to know that at that time the conflict had claimed some 185 lives. Only on Monday night did Hamas finally agree to that very same proposal, which went into effect yesterday morning. That means that 90 percent, a full 90 percent, of the fatalities in this conflict could have been avoided had Hamas not rejected then the ceasefire that it accepts now. Hamas must be held accountable for the tragic loss of life." - i assume something is not right here and when noam responds - NOAM CHOMSKY: ..... The narrow response is that, of course, as Netanyahu knows, that ceasefire proposal was arranged between the Egyptian military dictatorship and Israel, both of them very hostile to Hamas. It was not even communicated to Hamas. They learned about it through social media, and they were angered by that, naturally. They said they won’t accept it on those terms. Now, that’s the narrow response.
The broad response is that 100 percent of the casualties and the destruction and the devastation and so on could have been avoided if Israel had lived up to the ceasefire agreement after the—from November 2012, instead of violating it constantly and then escalating the violation in the manner that I described, in order to block the unity government and to persist in their policy of—the policies of taking over what they want in the West Bank and keeping—separating it from Gaza, and keeping Gaza on what they’ve called a "diet," Dov Weissglas’s famous comment. The man who negotiated the so-called withdrawal in 2005 pointed out that the purpose of the withdrawal is to end the discussion of any political settlement and to block any possibility of a Palestinian state, and meanwhile the Gazans will be kept on a diet, meaning just enough calories allowed so they don’t all die—because that wouldn’t look good for Israel’s fading reputation—but nothing more than that. And with its vaunted technical capacity, Israel, Israeli experts calculated precisely how many calories would be needed to keep the Gazans on their diet, under siege, blocked from export, blocked from import. Fishermen can’t go out to fish. The naval vessels drive them back to shore. A large part, probably over a third and maybe more, of Gaza’s arable land is barred from entry to Palestinians. It’s called a "barrier." That’s the norm. That’s the diet. They want to keep them on that, meanwhile separated from the West Bank, and continue the ongoing project of taking over—I can describe the details, but it’s not obscure—taking over the parts of the West Bank that Israel intends—is integrating into Israel, and presumably will ultimately annex in some fashion, as long as the United States continues to support it and block international efforts to lead to a political settlement." - i trust and believe his answer. i know he can be wrong and has been wrong but he is much more credible than bibi - don't you think?
See, there's the problem. You find me more credible than him so you will more readily believe my ideas than his? We are the same person!
Learn to judge ideas, not proposers.
caught you in the trap trashy
outwit by nonsensical Truthers?
I'm here to exchange ideas. Do you want to do that?
Or, you prefer to squabble like the Twinkle Team used to do?
Your arguments are flawed.
Your arguments have ALWAYS been flawed.
It does not matter what the issue or subject is.
Your thinking is FLAWED.
That is why you use multiple characters.
That is the only way you get any support.
Support from your own self.
Just sayin
No need for you to reply in any of your current guises.
I am not looking for a non-conversation with you.
So reply if you must - but - I will not be continuing on this subject.
Not a trap at all. Not trying to hide at all.
Are you saying you didn't yet know I was using two characters?
Sorry, I thought it was obvious. Just ask upfront next time and I will tell you.
There's a bug on the forum that messed things up after you post a few comments with one user. The comments get removed. Have you seen this? By having two characters I can circumvent the bug by switching from one user to the next. Sorry if that was an inconvenience.
I don't judge ideas based on the proposer, so sometimes I forget that multiple characters bug certain people here. I just come for ideas, I really don't care who shares them. I like good ideas, and don't like bad ones. Irrespective of who shares them.
I just wish you would learn to debate ideas instead of judging them based on the proposer.
you are so easy to outwit - but nice try trashy
I have to disagree with you here.
Conspiracy theories are a disease we must talk about. We won't be able to create a better world as long as people believe in nonsense like conspiracy theories or religions. We need to educate people. This is crucial, especially in US where people are literally becoming dumber and dumber. What's scary about these conspiracies is not only that people would believe dumb stories, but that so many people would.
Our new better world must rest upon rational thought, science, logic, and so on. It won't work if it is infected by ridiculous conspiracy theories, dangerous religions dogma, or other such drivel.
I think these conspiracy theories are one of the biggest problems of modern times.
For example, you say we should talk about environmental issues because they are more important. Yes, they are very important! But do you realize how conspiracy theories are holding us back! Many in US don't believe Global Warming is real and this includes Senators and other politicians in very important positions. Their nonsensical beliefs in conspiracy theories actually affect policy making. This is a huge problem.
Same thing with anti-GMO, anti-vaxxers, etc... All these lies these conspiracy theory groups are spreading is putting a dent in our hopes of changing the world into a better place.
shadz66 and Nevada1 started on 911 again, you continued it with this thread. I thank you for that. Libertarian socialism is important, but it's cool you could post about something else that matters as well. The video in the link is nice. I watched it all yesterday. You didn't put it there for nothing. although I'm your only supporter here, slowly, these Truthers will come to understand the truth I believe. Slowly their brains will elevate themselves out of the blinding mud they are in.
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It's always funny how these guys think the towers did not fall because of planes. Their ideas make so little sense. You have to think that if the plan was to create a false flag to go to war, hitting the buildings with planes would have been enough. Why make things extra complicated and demolish the buildings with bombs?
Bush, sir, we already have four planes which will be diverted on various important targets, we do not need to spend months wiring the towers for a demolition and risk getting caught doing it. Let's keep things simple stupid no? These four plane crashes will be excuse enough.
No! I will not! Those towers are coming down!
In other news, men refuse to believe that a plan almost as wide as a building which slams full speed into said building can inflict enough damage for a building collapse. We ask, are they stupid, dumb, low IQ? What is their problem?
If people were to walk through any occupy gettogether a couple of years ago, I think over half would have something to say about 9/11, at least that was my overall impression.
i spent lots of days in zuccotti park and i do not remember one 9/11 discussion. now i am old so my memory is shaky. i remember debating rand paul types and capitalists - lots of talk about israel in those days. that was 2011 and the economic crisis was full blown so that seemed to be the main topic - money and the economy and ideas on how to get it going. that doesn't mean what you say is incorrect - i would think most people anywhere would have something to say about 9/11
What Im saying is that a couple years ago, if you were looking for a group of conspiracy theorists, head to your nearest occupy. Doesnt make it right or wrong, just saying there were a lot there, everywhere.
could be - it is possible that any ows group is by definition comprised of people who mainly do not believe what the government says - on anything. ok - point taken i was just saying that it was not my experience but then maybe i was looking for other topics and not 9/11. my m.o. in those days was to walk around until i found a discussion i was interested in - it was great fun! it forced me to clarify my thinking - this site has done that also - i have learned a lot
me too.
well said
I hope that is not the case. How sad it would be. Those types of people are only are able to judge things on the surface. Black and white thinking 100% wrong or 100% right. They are unable of any depth of thought.
The other problem is you can very well doubt the government and think they lie about many things (I do), without buying into dumb conspiracy theories. Thinking Truthers are dumb idiot liars does not equal believing in what the government says.
I mean, Truthers are idiots. That is a fact. Whether the government lies or not won't change that.
there are a few here like you - and many of you by your own admission - who confuse fact and opinion. very dangerous thing to do. and as a point of logic - if the government has lied in spinning the official 9/11 conspiracy theory and the truthers are calling for a real investigation then....oh how stupid of me - why am i trying to argue a point of logic with an idiot - now that is a fact
Fact: The official explanation for 911 is backed up by mountains of evidence accumulated by the government and third party sources like Popular Mechanics and 911 is the most investigated event in history.
Fact: People who still believe in 911 conspiracy theories after they have been shown false so many times by so many third parties are either 1) stupid 2) brainwashed 3) schizophrenic 4) mentally handicapped 5) lying.
popular mechanics - ha - really - popular mechanics? care to discuss david ray griffin's book - "debunking 9/11 debunking - an answer to popular mechanics and other defenders of the official conspiracy theory." we could go through it chapter by chapter - you seem to have plenty of time. no you can't do that - but you can confuse fact and opinion.
No, like I said, I hate to waste time with Truthers. That's all they are good at, wasting people's time.
And what have you done all day today. Waste others time yapping.
You don't have to read what I write if you consider it a waste of time. Just skip and read what others are writing about. Why would you read things you aren't interested in?
That is the first intelligent thing you have said in the last week. Why didn't I think of that. Don't answer that!
Well, your thinking isn't too vivid and/or sharp usually. You lack rigour and imagination in your thoughts. That's why you still believe in ridiculous 9/11 conspiracy theories after 12 years of constant debunking.
As a way to dismiss your gossip and false accusations, I simply asked them:
https://occupywallst.org/forum/are-struggleforfreedom80-and-i-the-only-non-truthe/
I believe in proper research, and in the concept of innocent until proven guilty. That's what democracy is all about baby!
You are just like them. Making assumptions based on your fantasies and trying to turn those assumptions into reality.
What I noticed is you like to make false accusations about me. 95% of what you say about me is pure fabrication.
Which Truther here do you think is me?
The answer is none of them are.
It's sad because none only do you make a false accusation about me, you also make a false accusation for the Truthers you think are me. In fact, you are assuming any Truther here could be me.
Sadly my friend, OWS really is infested by Truthers. I don't have to make that up.
I finally understand why you always attack the proposer instead of the ideas.
You are like jart; an idea pusher (a salesman for ideas), not a philosopher (one who likes to discuss on how ideas germinate and develop into various different sequences of thought).
You post an idea, usually not yours. And, that's it. You don't enjoy debating the idea in comments. When someone points out a flaw, something that could be improved, a possible hole, etc... you respond like a truther and attack the proposer: you troll, you shill. This way you can dismiss the proposer, instead of discussion his ideas.
That explains why you barely ever comment in your postings. It also explains why your postings are almost always the same. Usually a push for libertarian socialism. Like a good salesman, you repeat and repeat.
Idea pushers either lack the capacity or the will to discuss. Usually it's the former. Their mission is to sell the ideas of others, not to develop ideas by themselves.
I've had tons of debates with all sorts of people here. You must have noticed this, since you're on here all the time. So why would you say that? Let me guess: to provoke?
That's right, I often push the ideas of libertarian socialism. But that should make you happy, right? I mean, you are an anarcho-syndicalist after all. You and I are so alike, right? So why would you say these things? To provoke and create confusion?
This will be my last comment to you in a long time. That comment was very revealing. I've become even more sure.
Like I said, since you are a libertarian socialist, I assume you'll be posting lots of things on direct action, abolishing capitalism, building strong unions and so on. I might check some of it out. Again, you are pretty easy to spot :
brand new username, pretending to be other people, bragging about yourself, calling yourself a "fantastic intellectual", using your many usernames to create fake discussions which in reality are just you talking to yourself etcetc*.
Yes, I am happy you push ideas of libertarian socialism, but I wish you would be open to discuss some details about this. Like implementation, how to go about creating a change towards that ideology, etc... Instead of just pushing the idea, of selling it.
I think libertarian socialism is the best system in theory, and I hope it can be implemented soon. However, there are questions that need to be thought about and answered first. This is why I think it is important to discuss this system and not just try to sell it.
One thing we need to solve, even in theory, is the Democratic Reform Trilemma: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy#Democratic_reform_trilemma It seems we will have to make a compromise in practice. We should debate and discuss this compromise to see if it can be avoided, and, if not, what the compromise should be.
We should also debate how new electronic and computer systems could be used to support libertarian socialism. I think this is key. We have to opportunity to push e-democracy here, but a clear and proper system as yet to be properly planned and implemented. I know BradB is working on this. There are also a few open source platforms out there.
One interested experiment is the Demoex experiment in Sweden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoex
It shows that it is possible to inject direct democracy directly into the system we have now. This could be one way towards a transition.
Another transitional idea is one I published here two years ago. The idea to start anarcho-syndicalist outfits and slowly let them multiply. The idea is that if anarch0-syndicalist businesses (businesses where everyone is an owner and decision maker) were to be implemented, they would most likely spread like mushrooms because everyone would want to work in places like that.
We also need to talk about problems of micromanagement. Without representatives, it is dangerous to fall into a system where citizens are asked to micromanage the affairs of the state. Hierarchic systems hide management levels from one another. This simples things since people only have to worry about management in their particular level in the hierarchy. The good news is this is changing. Apple and Google for example have diminished the number of hierarchic levels in their company. So, it is possible to go more horizontal.
That is also another way of transition perhaps. Instead of a brute revolution, it might be possible to keep decreasing the hierarchic levels in society until we reach an horizontal plane of organization.
There is so much to talk about with libertarian socialism. You don't need to repeat yourself creating new posts about the general concept. Let's create posts about concept details and discuss further all the aspects surrounding libertarian socialism. We could write a whole book about it!
Get that cactus out of your anus. Stop attacking the proposer, and let's get on with talking about ideas.
Good links and message (minus the words against sff, of course), in this post about talking through ideas and beginning to collectively implement libertarian socialism.
I do wish we (this forum), could conclusively decide that putting governing into the hands of the people is the ultimate issue here, and then 'stay on track' with how to go about doing that.
I wonder if the people who actually 'act' on their convictions, like groups like Demoex, existing cooperatives, etc., who are already practicing these methods could be convinced to come together and pool their/our ideas and skills so as to increase our/their numbers and get that much closer to a larger implementation of a truer democratic society?
Well, one prerequisite for direct democracy is a well educated populace.
Hard to imagine direct democracy could work well with a population that does not understand the idea of proper research, science, evidenced based thinking, etc... Americans are not very intelligent. Gullible. They get caught up in pseudoscience like conspiracy theories, new age drivel, religious dogma, etc... I mean, most posters here are Truthers for God's sake.
The other problem is many people get caught in logical fallacies like attacking the proposer. I don't know what struggleforfreedom80's problem is, but he really does have a cactus up his anus. He just can't discuss ideas. Always gets caught up in gossip, and lame rants against proposers.
The Demoex experiment works well in Sweden because the people there are quite well educated. Before implementing that in America a lot of work needs to be done in the education department.
Direct democracy could be much worse than what we have now if people aren't intelligent. I'd rather count on a representative democracy with so many conspiracy theorist idiots out there. Before we can implement direct democracy, we will first need to have a properly thinking population.
Most of that is an angry reply borne out of your frustration from your postings today regarding cts, and other thorns that get your goat. I get it. I understand. But, I'm not interested and won't be dragged into it. It's wasting precious time.
This 'educating the populace' that you speak of (though a good goal over time), will only come about by bypassing 'getting caught up in the debate' about how stupid people are, and focusing instead on talking about the goal, the ideas for implementation, etc. The more intelligent of the populace (probably more than we realize) will gravitate toward and partake in our efforts. Once our efforts visibly show enough results of Libertarian Socialism (not 100% sure if I like the terminology), the rest of the populace will see results they can identify with and want to become a part of it, thus, get involved. "Build it, and they will come."
Demoex did not wait until they educated the populace before they started implementing their principles. They simply got enough educated and well intentioned people on board and acted. It grew from there. We can do this, too.
The same goes for existing cooperatives. They did not wait to educate populations to be on board before they started. They acted on their principles and skills, and the populations around them have become educated on the benefits by watching it all unfold.
"Demoex in Sweden works well...". Yes it does, but it is not without it's problems/weaknesses, and the way it is set up now makes it ripe for infiltration given it's reliance on representatives who will undoubtedly succumb to bribes/threats. I already see the narrowing of practices and falling in line with the political status quo.
I do recognize however, that it's basically a good system, and as such would be valuable as a transitional method, on a way to a truer direct democracy...as much as I loathe the idea on some levels that we may need to compromise, being that it leaves us vulnerable to infitration and derailment.
Demoex has many good procedures in practice that we can learn from and use. OWS and this forum should be collaborating with Demoex and others (cooperatives, etc), whose principles are similar to OWS', and already in practice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoex
Educating the populace will only come about by having clear programs in place to teach people about proper research methods, proper line of arguments, learning what logical fallacies are, learning about science, about logic, etc....
This is very important. We must find ways to counter the bad thinking that is spreading behind conspiracy theories. This is very important indeed.
I explained above how people in Sweden are better educated than Americans and don't have the high level of conspiracy theory type thinking you find in US.
This is not a problem in the demoex problem since the representatives only have a ceremonial role. They look at what the vote was and input the decision. They don't make decisions. If a representative started deviating from that and make decisions on his own, it would be instantly apparent.
100% agree here. We should definitely start collaborations with other groups around the world. Someone should send some emails and invite them here, or go to their sites.
No, my reply above was not built on anger. Only logic. I don't get angry or emotional here. I just come to share ideas. I don't take personal squabbles here seriously at all.
You're fixated. Focus on discussion and implementation of Libertarian Socialism/direct democracy. It is a far better education and will bring about results much, much faster.
"I don't get angry or emotional here." Hahah! Not true. Ay Dios mio!
I consider that educating the people in proper research methods, science, logic, rational thinking, etc... is an integral part of discussing and implementing Libertarian Socialism/Direct Democracy. The more people have a say in society, the more they must be well educated for that say to have meaning and impact. Giving direct democracy to a badly educated populace is a grave danger. Much worse than having representatives. The very first step towards increased democracy is increased education. Proper ways of thought bring about more knowledge, which in turns brings about more democracy. Look around the planet. The best democracies always have better education.
I don't see how you can separate those two things.
It's easy to separate. Detachment and focusing on the priorities utilizing the people that are already of like-mind and ready to act on their principles. The others will follow when they see the good being done.
Your plan will set us back. Possibly decades, in light of the onslaught of indoctrination/propaganda/etc., that the western population is misled with at any given time. It's near impossible to educate everyone in time to change things before it's too late.
I've already described above why educating 'everyone' is not necessary to start to bring about fairness and dignity for humanity.
I just emailed Demoex guys inviting them to this forum.
Can you email jart and other Occupy founders and ask them to come here and discuss the idea of creating a political party much like Demoex in Sweden?
Thanks.
Woooohoooooooo!! A very good first step... a positive step...a step with direction...a step that could garner results!!
Thank you! For making that effort!
They and others will likely need several invitations, and more formal invitations. We can work on that.
Yes! I'll email jart and the others, but really...we don't need them to do this. This seems to me to be such a natural step to have taken with OWS, and if it hasn't been done by the founders by now, then it likely won't be done by them at all. We'll see. I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Gotta head out for a while. Back soon.
You might be right about the founders. They seem to have given up.
Yes, I like your idea of contact other like minded groups and coming together. Our numbers here are too small. We need to invite more people to participate, especially those with experience like the Demoex crowd.
We simply disagree on priorities. I think proper education is the number one priority if we wish to increase democracy. Especially in US where there is a grave problem of conspiracy theories which are getting worse each year.
Yes, and I disagree completely. Giving a say to a badly informed and uneducated populace is extremely dangerous and will do much worse than having representatives.
I want to create a new better world, not just destroy the one we already have. If we aren't going to improve things, then it's not worth it.
Nevermind the portion of the populace that isn't educated enough. Waste of time. There are plenty of people educated enough to start on a path to direct democracy. They are the ones we should appeal to and enlist.
For the rest of the populace, watching the fairness of an inclusive system like direct democracy being implemented, and seeing the results unfold with all the benefits bestowed upon them will BE the very education you are talking about.
Disagree. If we are going to give them voting rights on every little issue of the country, I want them educated before that. Or else direct democracy is much too dangerous.
No, it won't.
Give monkeys the right to vote and they won't suddenly become men simply because they gained that right.
[-] 1 points by shortNbaldNfatBUTSexy (-17) from New York, NY 2 minutes ago Ha! Well, at least monkeys might be right 50% of the time by sheer random luck. Conspiracy theorists are always wrong. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
~~~~~~~~~~Hahahahah! Geeez...just fall over and go to sleep, Thras. Haven't you been up for 24 hours, now?
nighty-nite
I was absolutely serious. Conspiracy theorists are always wrong.
[-] 1 points by shortNbaldNfatBUTSexy (-41) from New York, NY 0 minutes ago You should make a list of all the like minded groups we should contact. Like a comprehensive list with emails and stuff. Then we can invite them all here. Get tons of users from everywhere in the world. Make this OWS forum worldwide and buzzing with life. 10 users is not enough. We need hundreds. Now that the Twinkle Team is gone, people won't be banned left and right, so it gives a chance to new users to integrate and make the user base grow. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
~~~~~~~~~~~~~Yep...I've been thinking about that all day.
We need good letter writers, to start with. Professionals hopefully, but not necessarily.
.
There could be other ways for OWS/forum to generate income for expenses, as well.
Perhaps advertising income could be generated from these same carefully chosen co-ops/businesses/organizations/groups, whose principles align or overlap with those of OWS.
Like Mondragon, Demoex, etc.
Small ads on the front page of the forum so users can follow the direction OWS is headed and get involved with groups they may not otherwise be exposed to. OWS and these groups may over time, merge and multiply in numbers far faster than any one of them/us could on our own. Not to mention, good for forum morale.
Its a real win/win.
Great idea. I would say the best one going around the forum these days. No joke. Step by step. Before we can educate the populace like i was saying, or start direct democracy like you were saying, we could do something very simple right now like strengthening our ranks. Creating a nucleus again. Get the people who have all been shattered in various directions to come back together.
I was voted down twice for mentioning that you should go ahead with your idea. Seems like some people here want to keep this forum to a handful of users. That's crazy!
Well slap me with a 2x4 - but that is a gr8 idea. Getting funds from Humanities and Environmental and Justice groups etc to place their banners ( links ) onto the site.
I guess it's a good thing we'll never give monkeys the right to vote.
Ha! Well, at least monkeys might be right 50% of the time by sheer random luck. Conspiracy theorists are always wrong.
[-] 2 points by shortNbaldNfatBUTSexy (-47) from New York, NY 10 minutes ago Great idea. I would say the best one going around the forum these days. No joke. Step by step. Before we can educate the populace like i was saying, or start direct democracy like you were saying, we could do something very simple right now like strengthening our ranks. Creating a nucleus again. Get the people who have all been shattered in various directions to come back together. I was voted down twice for mentioning that you should go ahead with your idea. Seems like some people here want to keep this forum to a handful of users. That's crazy! ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
~~~~~~~~~~~Yep, step by step. Just do it. Lets act. Each step picks up the momentum, too...making subsequent steps fall into place faster, and so on.
Why couldn't this forum/OWS become a kind of cooperative in it's own right?
Employment for members who wanted responsibilities with procedures, etc?
Correct on all counts, especially that idea of building momentum. Now that the Twinkle Team is gone the ball can really start rolling. It's like removing a stick from between the spokes of a bike. Let's roll!
[-] 1 points by shortNbaldNfatBUTSexy (-41) from New York, NY 1 minute ago I'm not tired at all. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
~~~~~~~~~~~~~Maybe that's because you're delirious.
Or, maybe WE'RE just tired enough of you for one day. Lol! Either way...take a break. Or recharge your batteries. Whichever applies.
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You should make a list of all the like minded groups we should contact. Like a comprehensive list with emails and stuff. Then we can invite them all here. Get tons of users from everywhere in the world. Make this OWS forum worldwide and buzzing with life. 10 users is not enough. We need hundreds. Now that the Twinkle Team is gone, people won't be banned left and right, so it gives a chance to new users to integrate and make the user base grow.
[-] 0 points by shortNbaldNfatBUTSexy (-41) from New York, NY 5 minutes ago I was absolutely serious. Conspiracy theorists are always wrong. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
~~~~~~~~~~~I was being serious, too.
Now I know you're exhausted, 'cause it's not possible for your statement to be completely true.
Seriously...fall over...pull a blanket over your head...see you tomorrow, all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed.
nite-nite
I'm not tired at all.
Internet voting could be provided from public access points and polls could be held open for months
Considering most people have internet at home, we probably wouldn't need to create many access points. I mean, the whole point of internet voting is that you don't need the brick and mortar, so you can actually move to a direct democracy and vote very often on many things without it costing a fortune.
everyone needs easy access to the vote
computers are already available at the library
Well said. Very well said.
You government protector! Hack! Troll! I'll vote you down!
See, that's what the Truthers did when I attacked their nonsensical conspiracy theories. Does it mean you are wrong because everyone here except me disagrees with you about conspiracy theories? Of course not. Being in the minority does not mean you are wrong a priori.
You should not base yourself on points to judge whether or not forum users are good or trolls. I highly recommend you use your own judgment. Better to read the comments of a user and process them adequately if you wish to understand their opinions. Basing your self on karma points doesn't go very far at all.
Actually, on this forum, it has always been the case that users with low karma points are generally more interesting and intelligent than users with high karma points.
That's because they are individuals. Unconcerned about pleasing others, only concerned about expressing their ideas. This is not a recipe to gain points!!! People that have lots of karma points are pleasers. They don't veer very far from the acceptable, from the normal, from the predictable. They usually only parrot the most common opinions. Their friends vote them up, and they vote their friends up in return.
Dare to deepen your thinking, to sharpen your mind, and you'll find that the sharper you become, the more precise your thoughts are, the less people will understand and support you.
people with more posts are ore involved with the subjects at hand and/or previously
You get 1 point per comment whether it is good or not. Some people with high scores are just forum addicts.
Those with more posts are not necessarily more involved with the subjects.
so they know what's going on
Not necessarily. Many educated people don't post here, and many who post here don't know what's going on. There isn't a correlation between knowledgeability of a subject and the number of posts you do here. None at all. I mean, look at shooz. He was posting all the time, but he was an uneducated retired car mechanic. He knew nothing much about politics. And knew absolutely nothing about intellectual discourse.
Dawg! We got cut from the same mold! Not only do we both support libertarian socialism. we both think Truthers are ridiculous idiots. We got more in common than two lonely cowboys. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting no Broke Back Mountain. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
I believe you (Trashy) and me are from very different molds. You're not a libertarian socialist. You spread lies and disinformation, and pretend to be libertarian-left leaning at times when you find it suitable. You say you dislike unions, but in the next sentence you claim to be an anarcho-syndicalist, and so on.
Either you're confused and ignorant, or you're a preteneder, a concerned troll who has no shame and is only here to provoke and create as much chaos and confusion as you can. For some strange reason I suspect the latter..
the economy is about resource ownership
And it's pretty obvious that if we believe in democracy (people having a say in the things they're a part of and affected by), then the economic institutions should be run democratically as well.
Your belief is flawed. Find a new religion. Listening to your guru shooz did not do you good.
I never said I disliked unions. Not sure where you got that idea.
Perhaps it was at a time when I explained why I preferred worker run factories than factories with unions. That doesn't mean I dislike unions. Although I like unions more than a system without unions, I prefer worker owned factories to those using unions. With unions, you still have the 1% who control. You create a union to speak with the boss. With worker owned factories everyone is equal. Unions can serve as an intermediary to our goal of worker run factories, but we shouldn't consider them more than an intermediary measure.
You actually don't know much about me at all. If you would you would be extremely surprised. I'm much more like you than you think.
The problem is you bought into the lies the Twinkle Team spread about me in order to take over the forum.
It's sad really, that you cannot judge for yourself. Even worse, you trust the Twinkle Team for your information.
It's extremely ironic. I never pushed any conservative or right wing ideas here. I actually always pushed far left ideologies. I don't know if you are blind or what.
Could it be that you are using emotions to guide you, and not your intellect?
Do you really think I've become suspicious of you by reading ZenDog's ridiculous rants etc? I've been visiting and contributed to this forum since the very beginning, and I have seen a lot of the things you've written with your hundreds of different usernames. It seems pretty clear that you are a troll -- a provocateur and a pretender. If this is not correct, then you've done one hell of a job making others believe this is the case. You start arguments about often insignificant details; you write provoking things like "Listening to your guru shooz did not do you good" which you know perfectly well is nonsense; you pretend to be other people: you refer to Trashy (you) as "him", bragging about yourself. You write in a way that makes most of us suspect that you're really just mocking leftists.
So based on all this, why are you so surprised that people don't find you credible?
Your first username (Thrasymaque) has about -2000 in karma, and pretty much all your other accounts have been receiving tons of minus karma and eventually shut down. You've been banned --not by the TT but by jart--more times than any other combined. So why are you so unpopular here if your intentions are good? I've disagreed with ZenDog, shooz, DKA and others many times. I think a lot of what especially ZenDog has written has been garbage. I've stated that he's been acting like a little brat (which he has). And yet I have not been banned ever, and I've never noticed anyone attacking me with systematic downvoting. So if you and I are so alike, why haven't I received the same treatment?
The conclusion is pretty obvious: You're talking in a way that makes pretty much everyone on here dislike you. It's not like everyone at the same time thought "let's start downvoting Trashy for no reason". There's a reason why it's you who are being banned and constantly receive bad karma.
right on!
sigh
How about this....
I'll keep posting left wing ideologies, and you can keep accusing me of being a right winger.
I'm not interested in your squabbling and babbling.
I'll ignore your baseless attacks from now on.
The irony is that you function much like a conspiracy theorist. You make claims without any evidence, without any proof. Based on gossip, and hearsay. Ironic that it's on this debunking post.
Cheers mate. It's time to love, not to hate.
This is one perfect example of your conspiracy theory type thinking. My Thrasymaque username was about +5000 when I was banned. The -2000 score was added on artificially after being banned. My other usernames had some negative scores because the Twinkle Team infiltrators kept attacking me.
But, my question is, who cares about points?
This ain't no Donkey Kong.
Are you here to partake in exchanging ideas, or here to amass a high score? Sharp thinking usually only pleases the minority. That's kind of my problem. You can water down everything if you want to gain large public support, that does not interest me.
Well of course you're not going to counter any of the things I pointed out. Trying to defend the fact that you go around pretending to be other people, bragging about yourself, calling Trashy (you) a "great intellectual" is kind of hard, right? When you pretend to be other people, bragging about yourself, do you see why we have problems taking you seriously? When you say things like "all grandmothers on here, please knit us some socks", do you see why we have problems taking you seriously?
Actually, it seems you're the conspiracy theorist: a small group of vicious infiltrators decided they were going to bully you, ban you and vote you down. You're really "the good guy", but infiltrators conspired against you..
I just told you that I didn't base my opinions on gossip. Why do you bring that up again? To provoke? Well, there are lots of things we're not 100% sure of, but that we still base our ideas and understanding on. Like I said, I've read many of your comments and posts from the beginning, and I don't have many doubts.
Karmas aren't important, but they can often help people to spot the trolls better. If you're constantly being voted down, it's often an indication that your intentions are not good.
It's your own fault that people have become suspicious of you (cf the things I mentioned above). If you want an end to all the "hate", you might want to change your behavior and become an honest and decent contributer.
nailed it!
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The Twinkle Team infiltrators didn't just attack me, they attack hundreds of people here. Ask Odin, penguento, Renneye, gnomunny, etc... so many users were banned and booted because of those infiltrators. It was a real shame. That's why jart banned them all on the same day. You think she banned them for fun?
Karmas don't help spot the trolls because often the trolls are the ones who use them the most. Take you 911 thread. You will be called a hack and a troll, your comments down voted there, the Truthers will work hard to up vote their comments. Does that mean they are right and you are wrong?
The Twinkle Team were the biggest trolls here. Swearing, booting others from the forum, doing mob attacks, ZenDog was constantly doing death threats even to the site admins, etc... and they all had the highest scores here.
But, I am not here to defend myself. I don't care what you think. I'm not a big fan of squabbling and babbling.
So, I'll keep posting about left wing ideologies, and you can keep calling them right wing ones.
I don't believe Justine banned ranters like Zendog for fun. I'm glad he was banned. I'm surprised that he didn't get banned earlier. But you weren't banned for fun either. Again, like I explained above, there's a reason you have received the treatment that you have. You have yourself to blame.
pay attention. In the long run karmas can often help spot trolls better.
Left wing ideologies? Oh, you mean libertarian socialism? (the brand that you claim you subscribe to) So in other words, you're going to post things about how we should definitely act, by for example building strong unions that can eventually play a part in freeing the workers from the shackles imposed on them by the owners, and create a society without leaders, hierarchies and capitalism? So you're going to post stuff about how we should rise up and abolish capitalism?
Great! I might check it out. You are quite easy to spot (brand new username, and constantly pretending to be other people, bragging about yourself, calling yourself a "fantastic intellectual" and so on).
I'll keep posting left wing ideologies and you can keep calling them right wing ones.
If you think I'm a troll, my suggestion would be to ignore me. Disengaging trolls is always the best thing you can do.
I ever try to hide. If you see a user and you think it's me, just ask if you want to be sure. I always tell the truth about that.
That's what I have been doing from the start.
Personally, I think capitalism can only be abolished by increasing productivity. I always believed Marx was correct when he said we needed to reach post-scarcity for communism to be viable. My hope is we can increase productivity by 10 times, just like we did when we reached the industrial period.
Look, if all you want is to squabble and babble, I'm not interested. I think cooperation is better than infighting.
Jart banned me because I was using bots to attacking 911 Truthers and the Twinkle Team infiltrators. I was using bots for awhile, she asked me to stop. I said I would. A few days later I couldn't resist and used them again. She banned me, got angry, artificially reduced my score to -2000, and that's it.
Truthers were pissed I ditched their lame conspiracy theories, so they called me a hack, a troll, etc... They worked hard on creating a bad image about me. Said I was a right winger, paid shill, etc... Made up stories like I posted porn, when it was one of them that created a character faking my name to do that. etc....
The great news is that jart finally work up and realized I was right. She finally banned the damn Twinkle Team infiltrators.
As for Truthers and anti-semite Illuminati conspiracy guys, I am proud to say I got most of them off the site using my bots in the early days.
the 9/11 thing is like a religion. kind of ridiculous. it was debunk long ago.
that richard cage guy from ae911truth.org goes around fund raising money from gullible followers. he never does anything with it. so strange that some people look up to these scammers.
http://www.debunking911.com
appeals to the religious type i guess.
i cannot agree with you here - no need to get into it. it matters little how the buildings came down or whether arabs or cheney did it. what matters is how the ruling class used the event to tighten the screws on the rest of us. i do think you might keep a more open mind on the issue - there are too many holes in the official story. that said i cannot imagine who or what would do such a thing - and how it could be pulled off.
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That is entirely normal. States always use events in their favour. Every country in the world used the events of 911 in their favour. That was to be expected. Nothing surprising here.
My mind is open to evidence. There is none. Truthers had a chance. It's been over 12 years, all they have is baseless assumptions, quote mining, coincidence mapping, and other lame logical fallacies.
Having an open mind does not mean being gullible and holding a fanatical position that doesn't change even though no evidence is provided to support it.
It's not difficult to imagine who did it. It was the muslim terrorists. America has been treating people horribly in the middle east for ages. It's normal that they would eventually retaliate. Additionally, they said it themselves. No one disputes who pulled off 911 except lame ridiculous Truthers.
Chomsky says it really well in this video. You should watch it and learn something. It's only 6 minutes long.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwZ-vIaW6Bc
Noam does not know the facts of 9/11 for the same reason he doesn't know the facts of the JFK killing. He doesn't care! And with good reason. Who killed JFK matters little in the big picture. For Noam state dept policy goes on as usual no matter who is in the White House. You should know that since you claim to be one of - the few - intelligent ones! And you point to a childish popular mechanics article. Wow what a sad little fat man you are.
and noam is correct. state policy changes very little when the actors change. the system is what matters.
noam does know the facts about 911. truthers don't. they make up facts.
i am sure you are wrong about noam - he did not waste his time studying the situation - i have heard him say it many times. now as for the "truthers" - i imagine there are some who have made up facts but there are FACTS that would make any thinking person have doubts about the official conspiracy theory - maybe we can discuss in on the 17th! unless you want to take up the challenge i gave to trashy i am done here - don't want to "waste anymore time"
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9/11: A Conspiracy Theory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98 corbettreport Transcript and sources: http://www.corbettreport.com/?p=2594 Everything you ever wanted to know about the 9/11 conspiracy theory in under 5 minutes.
(Watch French, German, Spanish, Italian, Hebrew or Portuguese translations of this video.)
TRANSCRIPT: On the morning of September 11, 2001, 19 men armed with boxcutters directed by a man on dialysis in a cave fortress halfway around the world using a satellite phone and a laptop directed the most sophisticated penetration of the most heavily-defended airspace in the world, overpowering the passengers and the military combat-trained pilots on 4 commercial aircraft before flying those planes wildly off course for over an hour without being molested by a single fighter interceptor.
These 19 hijackers, devout religious fundamentalists who liked to drink alcohol, snort cocaine, and live with pink-haired strippers, managed to knock down 3 buildings with 2 planes in New York, while in Washington a pilot who couldn’t handle a single engine Cessna was able to fly a 757 in an 8,000 foot descending 270 degree corskscrew turn to come exactly level with the ground, hitting the Pentagon in the budget analyst office where DoD staffers were working on the mystery of the 2.3 trillion dollars that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld had announced “missing” from the Pentagon’s coffers in a press conference the day before, on September 10, 2001.
Luckily, the news anchors knew who did it within minutes, the pundits knew within hours, the Administration knew within the day, and the evidence literally fell into the FBI’s lap. But for some reason a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists demanded an investigation into the greatest attack on American soil in history.
The investigation was delayed, underfunded, set up to fail, a conflict of interest and a cover up from start to finish. It was based on testimony extracted through torture, the records of which were destroyed. It failed to mention the existence of WTC7, Able Danger, Ptech, Sibel Edmonds, OBL and the CIA, and the drills of hijacked aircraft being flown into buildings that were being simulated at the precise same time that those events were actually happening. It was lied to by the Pentagon, the CIA, the Bush Administration and as for Bush and Cheney…well, no one knows what they told it because they testified in secret, off the record, not under oath and behind closed doors. It didn’t bother to look at who funded the attacks because that question is of “little practical significance“. Still, the 9/11 Commission did brilliantly, answering all of the questions the public had (except most of the victims’ family members’ questions) and pinned blame on all the people responsible (although no one so much as lost their job), determining the attacks were “a failure of imagination” because “I don’t think anyone could envision flying airplanes into buildings ” except the Pentagon and FEMA and NORAD and the NRO.
The DIA destroyed 2.5 TB of data on Able Danger, but that’s OK because it probably wasn’t important.
The SEC destroyed their records on the investigation into the insider trading before the attacks, but that’s OK because destroying the records of the largest investigation in SEC history is just part of routine record keeping.
NIST has classified the data that they used for their model of WTC7′s collapse, but that’s OK because knowing how they made their model of that collapse would “jeopardize public safety“.
The FBI has argued that all material related to their investigation of 9/11 should be kept secret from the public, but that’s OK because the FBI probably has nothing to hide.
This man never existed, nor is anything he had to say worthy of your attention, and if you say otherwise you are a paranoid conspiracy theorist and deserve to be shunned by all of humanity. Likewise him, him, him, and her. (and her and her and him).
Osama Bin Laden lived in a cave fortress in the hills of Afghanistan, but somehow got away. Then he was hiding out in Tora Bora but somehow got away. Then he lived in Abottabad for years, taunting the most comprehensive intelligence dragnet employing the most sophisticated technology in the history of the world for 10 years, releasing video after video with complete impunity (and getting younger and younger as he did so), before finally being found in a daring SEAL team raid which wasn’t recorded on video, in which he didn’t resist or use his wife as a human shield, and in which these crack special forces operatives panicked and killed this unarmed man, supposedly the best source of intelligence about those dastardly terrorists on the planet. Then they dumped his body in the ocean before telling anyone about it. Then a couple dozen of that team’s members died in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan.
This is the story of 9/11, brought to you by the media which told you the hard truths about JFK and incubator babies and mobile production facilities and the rescue of Jessica Lynch.
If you have any questions about this story…you are a batshit, paranoid, tinfoil, dog-abusing baby-hater and will be reviled by everyone. If you love your country and/or freedom, happiness, rainbows, rock and roll, puppy dogs, apple pie and your grandma, you will never ever express doubts about any part of this story to anyone. Ever.
This has been a public service announcement by: the Friends of the FBI, CIA, NSA, DIA, SEC, MSM, White House, NIST, and the 9/11 Commission. Because Ignorance is Strength.
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It's hard to forgive conspiracy theorists for mocking the tragedy of 911, but we have to try.
911 was just an excuse
we were already going to invade iraq
if 911 hadn't happened|
another reason would be fabricated
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