Forum Post: Any other OWS Supporters feel like *Giving UP* on the movement??? I Do!
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 22, 2011, 4:17 p.m. EST by bethlany88
(134)
from Vancouver, WA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I fully support the general message of OWS. We NEED change. We NEED the voice of the 99% to be heard and our desires put into action in our Nation. However the lack of leadership and forward movement beyond complaining is leaving a bad taste in my and many others mouths. If OWS supporters are falling off, how can we ever expect to get other Americans on board?
The Civil Rights Movement had a leader, Martin Luther King Jr....articulate, intelligent, compassionate, and fighting for the best interest if his community, country, and people. He was effective. Leadership is not inherently evil, and would go a long way in this movement to provide clear direction and positive PR with our fellow Americans.
We should be starting petitions, bills, and legal actions. If the 30,000 who showed up in NY were to also to go out into their community to collect signatures for petitions to be presented to our officials then perhaps we would see more success and more support for OWS. We need direction, we need clear goals, we need a way to effectively accomplish those goals....I dont see that happening currently. Any other OWS supporters agree?
OWS movement doesn't need "a leader" at all. What we do need in the movement is various speaker persons or voices. Just my opinion. While it's easier to be heard with a single leader.(to some degree) It's also easier to debunk an entire movement with one leader. We don't need a leader. We just need a group of individuals to voice what the collection of us thinks/decides/wants. In this way, we can get our collective thoughts/ideas/wants out there without a single person to single out. We are the 99%, not the ONE representing the 99% afterall!
I see your point, and I too think that having speakers would be beneficial.
After leader, Martin Luther King Jr, was killed, his movement go under.
I am beginning to agree whole heartedly.
I Agree that the "legalized bribery" is the central problem. If we could solve that, we could solve all the other problems through democracy. Our Constitution and our system of government is awesome. It has just been sold to the highest bidders.
WOLPAC.com is trying to address the issue.
We all feel the need for some charismatic messiah to come to our rescue and solve our problems for us. Unfortunately (or fortunately!) we are stuck with each other.
Also, AMERICANS ELECT is trying to get independent candidates on the ballot.
I'm not despairing yet. "Whatever you do, it will be insignificant. But it is very important that you do it." --Gandhi
great quote!
Petitions are often pointless..I think we should focus on improving public image and setting official movement goals.. That would really help public perception in the undecided crowd.
agreed, public image is number one to get others on board, likewise having goals allows americans not yet on board to better understand what ows is about, however as you can read only some of us feel this way.
I for one HATE the new slogan "The only solution is WORLD REVOLUTION". This has such Marxist Communist tones..not good folks..
Someone posted this on this forum a few days ago, and I liked it so I saved it:
"In a normal situation I would have no problem agreeing to come up with a list of demands, but this movement is something different, and you have to acknowledge new ideas, and new ways of getting things done.
I have noticed how crazy OWS is driving the Wall Street establishment. Nobody else had been able to do that. So, I'm saying that you have to stay on course because your enemies don't know what to do with you.
You should judge your effectiveness by the response you get. Right now, your enemies are howling and pulling out every dirty trick they can think of. Meanwhile, your friends are coming out in droves to support you, so, if it aint broke don't fix it. Stay the Course!
It seems like a movement with nebulous goals is a movement that anybody can join because they bring their own goals and anger to the movement. This is a new idea.
You make a big mistake if you start to think that your enemies are stupid, or lazy. The people who hate you are very smart. They have destroyed every protest movement that has gone against them in the last 30 years. On the other hand, they are completely flummoxed by the Teflon OWS! I call that Genius! And suggest that you keep it up. Stay the Course!
In addition, consider the following: Who in the Government are you going to deliver your list of demands to?? The President, John Boehner, Eric Cantor? You'd have better luck delivering them to Rush Limbaugh.
Who is going to negotiate your demands? A leader? A spokesperson? A group of Lawyers? Your enemies are people who think that a Million Dollars is pocket change. How soon will it be before your leaders sell you out? How long will it be before your demands are whittled down to nothing? How long before you become just "Sound and fury signifying nothing?
What'll happen if everybody doesn't agree? A list of hard and fast demands almost guarantees an internal fight. All you have to do is look at the comments on this board to understand that.
In addition, if you elect a leader, what you have done is to Elect a Target. Stay the Course!
America is not Egypt. They only had one simple demand which was that, "The Regime had to go!" That simple demand is why they were victorious. Unfortunately, that won't work here. Stay the course.
I think it is a trap to say, we want this or that. It is much harder for your enemies to attack, and much more effective to just say I'M MAD AS HELL, AND I WON'T TAKE IT ANY MORE! Any politician worth his salt knows that they have to respond with something serious to meet that kind of demand. So, stay the Course!
The President had a whole list of demands, he's charismatic leader and effective spokesperson for his party, and do you see how they treat him. What makes you think you wouldn't meet the same effective opposition? The Wall Street Establishment is very good at saying that your demands are impossible because of a whole host of lame excuses that boil down to "We don't want to do that!
No my friends, as a six decade long witness to history, in my humble opinion, listing your demands and electing a spokesperson to have a unified voice is the road to ruin. New times demand new thinking, and new problems demand new solutions. Stay the Course my Brothers it's driving them crazy!"
I understand your logic here and while this was effective at the very beginning, it won't work for a long period of time to have an impact on people. I am sorry but it is the truth, the masses are mostly sheep and the sheep are confused since no one wants to lead them in a safe, less stressful path of existence. Most people do not want to be filthy rich, they just want enough to make their journey through life as painlessly as possible. This maybe unrealistic but it is something that we should strive for since we dominate the planet in numbers.
I agree.
OK, so its pissing Wall street and others off.....how is that bringing about change? Ive seen no change, ive seen publicity of the rallys, that alot of americans are pissed, but is this making our leaders, bank holders, etc. do a damn thing? Not as of yet, and I just dont see rioting causing our leaders to implement the real changes we so desperately need. I see our leaders saying "Oh we understand their complaints, all americans are frustrated." I see them throwing around occasional jargon to make themselves seem sympathetic, while making OWS ultimately look like a mess of an attempt to effect change, but I dont foresee the current structure of OWS causing any real long standing change, and that is most unfortunate. Just bitching never accomplishes anything. Just like in any relationship...you must present your needs and give the other party the information and how to's to meet your needs no?
[Removed]
Hi, I understand your frustration., You have to admit that we -as a whole, a community- haven't got to that stage yet. Please don't give up! there is for sure room for you and your aims. I am writing you from the opposite shore, from Take The Square Spain. Been in the rev-love-ution since May. Imagine this, two days ago the right wing was elected (Mayority) ¿the problem? that within the movement, activist comrades did not even know the value and the meaning of the vote! We are reeaaally backlogged, so many things to learn and practice before we even start a true rev. Please stay :) If you need more info, contact me Cheers, T
If and when OWS is able to start petitions, bills, call for true reform and actions to be put into place I will be there. However the endless rally's with no direction or goals leaves too many of us disheartened with little hope of real change coming from only voicing our rage without voicing clear ways to repair the damage done by our governing officials. I love that this is a world wide movement, I love that people from all nations are comming together. That is at least one positive change, whether or not it helps our economy or national structure. For far too long all of our governing officials and mainstream media has kept us all seperated from each other, tried to make us enemies of one another when i believe the truth is that most humans simply want to support each other and live in peace with one another.
Not all of us are educated enough to prepare petitions, bills or ideas for true reform, etc. In fact most of the 99% as victims of the system were not prepared to face the "real world" and that is mainly why we took the streets. I see this difference 'cause I have a PhD degree plus an MPhil (IMS-HSEQ). Question is Why should they follow - again- the ideas of those who are better prepared? that would simply perpetuate the status quo! (following again those who seem to "know better" until they stab you in the back, really?) It is really complicated, hard work ahead and so many challenges to tackle :) Please will you stay?
[Removed]
I am a Independent and I am still with you in spirit!
Please repeat that need to vote and be involved in the system NOW. We'll end up with a damn right wing president again because some of these people don't understand that voting is a duty not just a right.
Damn right wing republicans damn left wing democrats, damn most current politicians period I say. The people havent been rightly represented whether democrat, or republican voted in. Having "Parties" only serves to divide us as a people imho. Too bad we cant just have candidates that are simply just on the side of the Americans and not in bed with any "party" or other corrupt organization....
perhaps. but that's what we have right mow so people need to vote.
But for whom? An independent wont garner enough votes. The current president isnt well on the side of the people as he should be and falls short on his promises. The Candidates on the Republican side all seem like jackasses. lol
II think you found out your goal: it is "your" duty to do that at home, we ended up with the right wing president precisely because we did not hear ppl who talk like you. Even though you might feel or find yourself "away" from OWS it is not, so, guaranteed :) just keep opening consciences about VOTE, every person counts!
[Removed]
WE NEED AN ANSWER!!!!http://www.facebook.com/pages/Yourtopia-your-official-final-beggining/121659664613545
People come and people go. That's the nature of movements. As for leadership, look in a mirror.
People need to wake up and realize they are 99%ers and whats at stake here.
Unless we stop lobbying we have a National Security Issue!!!!
Whats going to stop the Chinese from buying out our Politicians? Israel already has!
Heres another example, please check it out.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/dear-col-gadhafi-ex-cia-arabist-gop-lobbyist-230132693.html
lol ows forever, we aint never going away baby, stop trolling for the coporate faascistl.
pfft...I dont even fully know what a troll is, let alone am one but peace to ya my friend.
OCCUPY needs a political program.
OCCUPY needs to debate, discuss and adapt a NEW DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE (of by and for the 99% from the 1%).
OCCUPY needs to hold a convention to adapt this NEW DECLARATION to be held in Philadelphio next July 4th or in Tampa, Forida in late August (27-30) during the Republican National Convention.
thats a thought, seems no matter what I think someones gonna disagree right? I would love to OWS take some more serious step similar these or others.
seriously, if you feel like leaving, leave. I'll see you in a week or a month when you realize how dumb that was as this baby transitions out of infancy and into childhood. If that wouldn't pull you back in, you might even resist the tempation of three or five months of adolescence, but if you think you will be able to stay away when this meta entity becomes an adult a year or so from now? your kidding yourself. Try and quit. I triple dare you. enjoy your vacation. see you soon.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Main_Page
smart ass. lol ;-) Good to see people with the fire to fight for whats right, no matter the cost.
No, giving up is for losers!
sometimes true. ;-)
Hey, I have a little cause I'd like you to check out. Feel free to comment in the post, good or bad. I'd like some feed back on the actual post.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/
Corporate greed is not illegal but larceny is. Corporations stealing America’s savings are the root cause of our current financial state. I have worked the trenches. I am a retired computer financial systems analyst. Corporations have pilfered many $billions to subsidize corporate goals: Lavish executive pay. legions of lobbyists, profit growth exceeding GDP growth, campaign funding as of 2010, M&A frenzy, etc. A decade of transferring funds from the masses to a few created a huge wealth gap. This larceny continues to impoverish the middle class. The market tanked. Retirement dreams have faded. Jobs outlook is bleak.Housing is kaput. Ad nauseam. This crime wave has brought us to the brink of ruin. A democracy is being traitorously forged into a plutocracy. The thefts of shareholder value must stop. Alert the Administration, daily. Harangue your Congressmen. Enlighten your friends. If you incurred substantial losses since 2000 insist the FBI investigate your situation. Impale or hang in effigy the SEC as a poor guardian / rogue cop / gang leader.
No, I do not feel like giving up. Patience is a virtue. If not for OWS, many would still be in the dark about the severity of the multiple problems going on both here and abroad. Remember we are a globalized world now.
So, If you're starting from the notion that we need change, you may be starting from the wrong position. Think about this. Our last president ran his whole campaign around "Change We Can Believe In". Where is that change? Have you seen it? He's had plenty of time to take action. All we've seen is do nothing politics. Have you seen any Wall Street guys arrested? Maybe you should see if the same old names and faces associated with the financial crash that we're around before him are right back on his staff. If you don't know what I'm talking about - watch the documentary Inside Job.
As for as getting someone elected. Go ahead. Give them a clear cut leader to rally around and you give them one single person to deal with. Think about that. Put yourselves in their shoes for a second. Would you rather have one single person to deal with are a whole freaking 99% of the people to deal with. Which odds do you like?
Bottom line - don't arm yourself with a band-aid and think it is going to fix a severed arm. Arm yourself with fortitude and patience. Stay active as much as you can. Watch and learn as much as you can. Remember: You can't evict an idea whose time has come.
good point. :-)
In the immortal words of Mick Jagger, "Time is on my side."
Good Bye.....
VIVA LA HUELGA!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf-vdW-EhMY
Two months and five days. That's all, just two months and five days.
Political campaigns for office generally take over a year and sometimes millions of dollars.
Court hearings can be drug out for even longer.
It took 30 years to get to this point, three decades. Many of us weren't even born 30 years ago.
We are a nation of instant gratification. We know what we want and we want it NOW!
We can't have it now...we have to work at this, change comes about slowly if it comes at all...there is no road to instant gratification that would be beneficial.
We have hundreds of Occupy's, each of them is addressing issues as defined by their local GA and also attempting to address issues that are national.
Instant gratification is not the way to get to where we need to go.
Two months of just bitching quite honestly. Sure we get the "buy local, help your fellow man, switch to a credit union" which is all fine and good, but with the small numbers we have this will not have a big enough impact to turn the state of the economy, and how we are governed around. At least with campaigns they offer up their ideas and goals on how to solve the problem and THATS what gets people on board, though hardly a politician honors those ideas & goals. Sorry to say but America is USE to campaign, political parties etc. ... We dont have to be dubious like the political leaders to form some similence of leadership and set up goals and direction so that the rest of America knows what we stand for and what standing with us will do for them and our country....Just my humble opinion, but I know Im not alone...
Part of your argument is "America is USE to campaign..." Campaigns are the steps we are expecting to see, clear statements often not addressing that which we would most like to see addressed, but close enough to other concerns that we have so we either agree or disagree with a candidate or platform.
This is something different. It's not a campaign but a protest. Ever occur to any of us that what is being protested isn't just what's being said but the simple fact that we've 'been sleeping at the wheel'?
We're used to seeing movement, forward, backwards, even sideways...we expect the same things and we are comfortable with those things, we are comfortable with the way things are done.
Maybe it's time not to be so comfortable. To step outside the box. To voice our own concerns instead of waiting for someone else to do it. To be active instead of proactive.
You speak of small numbers, yet we moved billions of dollars from banks to credit unions, buy local? The biggest buying season of the year is still to come, it's days away.
Small numbers...most things start with one, that too is a small number.
Im not really in disagreement with most all of what you say. I truly agree that we have been silent to long and its time to stand up and no longer be sheep to the slaughter. I myself will continue to shop local,etc. etc. but the way we are doing things isnt getting mainstream america on board. I have about 135 friends on Facebook, of all walks of life, political views etc. and out of 135, though I post rigorously about OWS and my support of the movement, I only see about 5 friends who are in agreement. And only 1, my fiance who is actively supporting. I just think we need to do something to bring others on board more effectively whether through goals, public speaking, leadership or whatever means...
This is what I mean by instant gratification...we believe and we can't understand why others don't jump right in. Yet those others may not be paying attention yet, not see the whys because they haven't yet felt the sting of events...they are busy earning a living and watching their pay checks take care of less and less, but they think "I'm still ok as along as..." They aren't seeing what you see and you feel like it's all falling apart because of their lack of vision, by your standards.
Two months and five days...that isn't very long, heck the Tea Party was around for years before more than a few ever heard of it, OWS has gotten prime time TV in less than two months! Give it some time to grow up, it's still a baby.
Why do we have to wait for them to feel the sting? Why cant we have well spoken articulate people delivering well publicized speeches about just how horrifically our government and banksters have deceived, controlled, and hurt us and our nation? See for me, I was oblivious to this and such is why I just realized these past few months what was going on. It wasnt until I became informed that I jumped on board with the message of OWS. We need a public platform that better reaches mainstream america period so they too CAN be informed. Most of Americans dont agree or disagree with OWS because they cant figure out what we really stand for. Thats in part why I suggested leadership, or better organization etc. to get the people informed and onboard. I dont WANT to wait until we are all in doom. Call it wanting instant gratification, but I call it compassion for the people and wanting to save them before we get to that point by more effectively getting our message and ideas across. btw thank you for your input, I appreciate your views.
I keep saying give it time, that's the way it's going to have to be, because there are only two other choices, give up or begin anew.
I thank you for the discussion.
Without getting the outside money out of politics everything that OWS is doing will in the end be for nothing. OWS should continue to bring all of their grievances to the table but they should all be doing it under the context of getting outside money outside of politics. Because none of these problems will be addressed by politicians that are being bribed by the special interests/corporations that have controlled their political fates.
OWS now needs to evolve and have a core unifying message that ties all of their grievances together and go beyond party lines. Campaign Finance Reform.
Thats the thing...many on here and in the movement have some great ideas, but they are just posted on line, written on protesters signs, shouted out in the streets. There is no organization or method given to get the collective across america to press for such change.
Bethlany88, I agree. Worse yet, we are engaging in demonstrations of power for no reason other than to show we have power, but we haven't even told America what we want. They tire of us.
I have been able to get ONE thing positive going related to my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-power-of-the-people/ discussing our economic power (most posts talk about political power, and I just wanted to remind people we ALSO have economic power).
I compiled some shopping guidelines we developed under a forum post here and hosted them at http://bit.ly/DoYourBit where they are widely accessible and can be shared via social networks. Please read the guidelines and, if you agree, spread the http://bit.ly/DoYourBit link as far and wide as possivle using e-mail, twitter, facebook, etc. We need a LOT of people on board if we are to have an impact. Note there are no ads at http://bit.ly/DoYourBit, and I do not receive any reward other than the satisfaction of helping Americans use their economic power to change America.
I know this doesn't even come close to all the things we'd like to do, I just got tired of not taking any positive action, so I went and started some. Based on the hit counts, the shopping guidelines might go viral... still too soon to tell.
I like this...will share your link...thanks! ;-)
Thanks Bethlany88 !
If you're interested, the OWS language behind the post is at http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-power-of-the-people/ and the original shopping guideline post is at http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-please-support-the-american-worker/ . I only moved the guidelines out of the forum to depoliticize them and allow sharing.
I'm also a big fan of getting all the freakin' money out of our government and breaking up the power of the two party system. See http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-the-people-in-order-to-a-proposal/ . Once we have our UNCORRUPTED Democracy back, we can use it to address all our other concerns (taxes, regulations, etc) and settle our differences. As long as we insist on arguing over the details now, we become factions with no power... as the status quo desires.
In my opinion, taking back our government and exercising our consumer power responsibly are the only two things we really need to do to get our power back, and I'm seeing support for both across the political spectrum.
Its definitely a good start!
Exactly. That strategy of bringing all of the important problems this country face to the fore front at once was a brilliant way for OWS to change the national discussion from cuts and austerity to growth and fixing the wealth gap, etc. But now that Occupy has a lot of attention they risk their time passing them by because of lack of organization and message.
I would hate to see one of the biggest movements of my lifetime to be squandered away would be devastating. The next move should be obvious but unfortunately as of yet I don't see a coordinated effort to take this movement to the next level.
Im in full agreement. I posted because I very much enjoy the views of others, hearing opinions and sharing ideas. And I certainly dont mind being told when im wrong...in a respectful manner...some here dont know how to debate and share in a mature healthy fashion. lol I did not post to put the movement down by any means...just a little skeptical of the successful outcome. And I so agree, I too would hate to see one of the biggest movements be squandered...
Don't get angry at some of the responses you get here. Thats to be expected anywhere you go on the internet lol. Just keep articulating your opinions and hope they get through.
Get the word out about Campaign Finance Reform needing to be OWS core agenda. :)
Ok ;-)
Go to the ideas thread and give it a read. There are some good ideas and interesting links being posted there. It made me glad I've stuck around even though after N18 I was feeling like you are.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/please-post-your-best-ideas-for-owss-future-on-thi/
Give Up! I should say NOT! The movement is in it's infancy, learning how to walk and talk! Winter and cold weather are upon us, this does not deter the hardy and the strong! I say keep the course, Spring is around the corner and I hope that petitions drives begin this winter to repeal the 08-205 decision by the Supreme Court to give corporations ( personhood ) and reinstate corporate charters and repeal the Gramm-Leach-Blibley law of 1999 that repealed Roosevelt's Glass-Stegall Act of 1933 that forbade banks from using customer funds for risky activities and speculation! A voter registration drive should also be started to bring millions of new voters into the system and vote the greedy and corrupt politicians out of office in Washington! Only through the legal system, can there be change in the way Washington can affect change in Wall Street, the Banks and Corporations! Occupy Wall Street and Occupy America has more in common with Democrats,Obama,Independents and Progressives! What Occupy should do is concentrate their anger and the greed and corruption in Washington, Wall Street, Banks and Corporations towards Republicans and the Tea Party who detest the movement. They are the ones responsible for the gridlock in Congress, they are the ones who made a pact with Grover Norquist not to raise taxes on the rich and corporations, they are the ones responsible for wanting to eliminate Social Security and Medicare, they are the ones responsible for shipping 60,000 American factories with generous tax breaks and incentives from Bush2 to China and India, they are the ones responsible for shipping millions of American jobs overseas, they are the ones responsible for legislation to get rid of the EPA, Education Department, Social Programs for the poor, the elderly, children, they are the ones responsible for the chaos in this country. The movement should concentrate on replacing the Republican and Senate House members in Congress who have voted down against every job bill for the past two years, and concentrate on removing those greedy and corrupt Republican and Tea Party politicians from Congress! That should be the goal, of the Occupy Wall Street and Occupy America! Come this Spring, hundreds of thousands will march to all 50 state capitals and demand change and an end to greed and corruption on the local and state levels. Millions will march on Washington this Spring, May01 ( WorkersDay or MayDay is a worldwide holiday that celebrates Workers and their contributions to the world ) and demand an end to greed and corruption not only in Washington but also on Wall Street, the Banks and Corporations!!!
It is far too early to be discouraged in light of the huge results the movement has achieved. You want concrete law changes on books, etc. That stuff only comes over time. You are protesting because politicians have been dead to the needs and to the corruption and even been part of the corruption. That isn't going to change overnight or in a couple of months or with a few planks written for some platform. I think you're looking at the wrong things and listening too much to the detractors who try insanely to use that as a legitimate critique against a rapidly expanding grass-roots movement. (See: http://thegreatrecession.info/blog/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-now-unoccupied-but-stronger )
Look at what you have accomplished. In two months, you've stirred up so much public sympathy and interest that people all over the world have joined you. You have made Wall Street very, VERY uncomfortable so that they are now fighting you with mean tactics. Politicians are starting to try to co-opt the movement for their own support. (Don't go there!)
Keep up the push. Relentlessly let Wall Street and government know you are not happy with how they are conducting business.
To the extent you can, yes, also find like-minded people with whom you can put together specific ideas to push for in your own ways.
This is a great confluence of diverse people coming together, and ideas will have to be pretty few and basic in order to keep that together. It is not the basis for a new party because, as soon as you lay out leadership and a party platform, you will start to lose people who do not like those particular ideas. Keep this simple , and look for the ideas that everyone can agree on. Once those are accomplished, the movement can go home, but it will take some time to accomplish them.
Pick the most obviously corrupt institutions and begin focusing on their corruption and on what needs to be done about it with boycotts, focused protests, writings, everything you can bring agains them to show by crushing the worst that the others had better fear and start putting their own house in order. When Wall Street sees you can hurt them, some companies will start looking at cleaning up their own acts.
Just keep up the pressure on politicians, focus on the ideas that most have in common and avoid the ideas that are clearly partisan or narrowly appealing. There is a lot of anger here in part because no one has spelled out specifically what the group is angry about. So, talk it up. What ideas do most agree on?
The great human folly is to turn every strong movement into an institution. The first step down that road is to become an organization. From there, the institution automatically follows as organizations seek to sustain themselves forever. Just stay with being a movement, but find some strong specifics to agree on and push for. (The fewer, the broader the appeal and the greater likelihood of headway.)
--Knave Dave http://TheGreatRecession.info/blog
USA Today / Gallup Poll found that six in every ten Americans, or 56 percent, neither support nor oppose the goals of the Occupy Wall Street movement. 59 percent of respondents say they have no opinion at all. These percentages are largely unchanged from a similar poll a month ago.
The poll found that the biggest change in American's opinions about the movement over the course of a month of intense scrutiny of the Occupy protests was an increase in the number of Americans who disapprove of how the protests are being conducted. 31 percent of American's disapprove of the protester's methods, up from 20 percent in October.
Mostly unchanged are the number of Americans that support the protests methods. 20 percent of respondents continue to approve of how OWS is conducting themselves, down slightly from 25 percent the previous month......
Do you think these stats are wrong? Doesn't it worry you that we are not being taken seriously by 59% of the 99%
What these statistics do is affirm what I've been saying ... that so long as the Occupy Wall Street movement avoids anarchist tactics (breaking the law by blocking streets), etc. it will gain respect in mainstream America. There are many people there who recognize the wrongdoings and the rampant greed and who were initially delighted to see people were speaking out strongly. Very few of those people, however, want to see any form of anarchy. They still want to live where their children are safe and where they can drive or walk where they need to go without running into a rabble that is blocking their way when they have nothing agains the views of the rabble.
So, when the movement staid to kind and respectful protest, it held a high place in the public conscience. As it has moved to blocking streets, etc., it has started to lose faith with the American people. Take the high road and stay with it, and you will win back some of what has been lost and will add more and more supporters every day.
It's not a Great Recession for most of the middle class, and most will be willing to cheer you on and some to join you in ever greater numbers if you don't cause them to think you're taking the country into anarchy.
--Knave Dave http://TheGreatRecession.info/blog
I agree that OWS should avoid blocking streets, subways, etc. frustrating people who are not to blame but part of the 99% and continued peaceful law abiding tactics are needed to bring up the support of the people. Thanks for your input! ;-)
Yes, thanks for all your wise input on here.
Thanks, Beth.
Worried about what? This isn't magic. Did you really think that a nation of TV-, sugar- and alcohol-addled nitwits was going to suddenly just wake up one day and become intelligent? LOL! I don't give a shit what most Americans think about OWS, or anything else, for that matter. Change is going to take a LONG, LONG TIME. Anything this movement might accomplish is going to take a long, long time. And frankly, it's not going to happen until millions and millions of more Americans descend into poverty and destitution, which IS going to happen in the coming decade. So most of the public is oblivious to the disaster that's headed our way, and it's going to take them quite a while to figure it out. But they will figure it out, and that's when they'll understand what OWS is all about...
LoL first few lines..too funny! I just happen to think there should be a way to get more americans on board BEFORE we all hit poverty....
That is the most juvenile thing I've seen on here. So rather than actually doing something constructive, sounds like you're just going to sit back and watch. There are several things that this movement could make happen fairly quickly, such as getting corporate and union money out of politics.
I've been protesting and marching with OWS from the beginning. And if you think that getting special-interest money out of politics could happen "fairly quickly," then you have ZERO idea how this country works. Are you nuts? Big money will literally go to war before they let that happen--and war with them is EXACTLY what it's going to take. Jesus, talk about juvenile....
Then do something besides marching. Or do you just expect them to do the right thing on their own. This defeatist attitude is simply astounding. If you think everything is impossible, what's the point?
I don't think everything's impossible--I'm actually out there doing something, as are all the other OWS people. What are you talking about? The problem is, you just want things to "get done" as long as it doesn't involve a) you doing them, or b) you being inconvenienced in any way, shape or form by those doing them. You don't want to get your hands dirty. You want to show up on election day, vote, and then go your merry way for the other 364 days. Am I wrong about that?
What are you doing to make change? You keeping saying you are protesting and marching and that's cool. But as they say, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Just pointing out the fact that someone has a flat tire doesn't really help them.
When is OWS planning to start the civl war?
they would be disappointed to find that most people don't think it is that serious. volunteering ones time to protest is good. taking up arms is a different matter, or so I believe.
"they would be disappointed to find that most people don't think it is that serious."
No, we know full well that most people don't think it's that serious--that's EXACTLY the problem. But people are going to find out soon enough--whether OWS is the messenger or someone/something else is. The United States is living on extremely borrowed time--you can keep whistling past the graveyard all you want, but just don't say you weren't warned. And good luck!
Have you been paying attention to the national news? the fact that the mood and tone has changed gives me hope that we are in the process of turning the page. I will be going to visit my loved ones for thanksgiving and we are happy to just have a bird on the table. when the bird can no longer be provided by me and my loved ones, then we can talk about brutality.
"Have you been paying attention to the national news? the fact that the mood and tone has changed gives me hope that we are in the process of turning the page."
LOL...um, which nation are we talking about? You think the mood and tone in the United States has changed for the better? Is that really your interpretation of things? Wow... And the "turning the page" thing--does that mean you're basically relying on hope and magic now? "Oh, we'll just turn the page, and everything will be like it used to be, when gas was cheap and Americans were happy..." I mean, there's really nothing I can say to people like you...
i'm looking at my life and not judging actions I don't know enough about, then I am looking at the people i see in the grocery store and seeing the happiness in their eyes while watching people protest non violently, boycotting products and being happy with what they have. I am seeing NGOs that are helping the homeless, and I am doing a lot of soul searching. could I suggest you do the same?
Not when you just keep pointing out the obvious and have no plan. You're a doctor coming into a dead patient's room and saying, "I told ya he was sick."
Thanks for the warning. And you're going to be there thinking, 'wow, we had that opportunity to do something real but we just held signs up. Too bad we didn't roll our sleeves up and actually participate. '
Parrot, quit repeating the same thing. What is your plan? What are you going to do to help the situation you see as so grim?
The point is they want a revolution. They don't want to improve the government, they want to create a civil war to topple it.
I don't want to create a civil war--I just want Americans to stop bending over....
I wasn't talking about your personal dream, I was talking about Occupy's main objective.
Yeah, and this guy just keeps saying things are going to get really bad before people wake up to fight this pipe dream revolution. No ideas to keep things from getting worse though. They need more adults in this movement.
As a simple idea, I'd suggest working to support whatever candidate would replace one who has signed Grover Norquist's pledge.
No elected official should be signing a pledge to a lobbyist. And although it is called the Taxpayer Protection pledge, it is really fealty to the 1%. Yes, I will protect them from even the slightest increase in income tax!
Wrong. It's just wrong. And it cuts across both parties.
Second that.
[Removed]
There are lots of ways to become involved! I grow so tired of you asshats who keep asking will you please tell me what to do because I'm so f-n use to the corporate media telling me what to do?! PLUS I don't know how to think for myself anymore so I just come here to whine & bitch about how unorganized OWS & everything is, OR where's our leader? & NO ONE is giving me CLEAR direction! If you're doing that you're either a troll, paid shill or you're truly f-n stupid or under age 5!
you sir are horribly rude, as i am neither of those things and i know im not alone in feeling this way. God bless n have a good eve. I'll not respond further...hatefulness is TRUE ignorance.
Equal pay, no matter what the job. Whether you're a CEO or on the ground level. No one is more important or entitled than the other. Leaders are people who take all of those who help him with him in equality. Nowadays, when CEOs get paid more than the those who get paid nothing in comparison are stealing and exploiting others for personal gain. It is unethical and it is how the centralizing of wealth started. The OWS needs to demand this. The current system empowers evil organizations but an ethical economy empowers loving organizations. The drive succeed switches from the delusional acquisition of materialistic wealth to the acquisition of greater health on more levels than just the physical. Planned obsolescence will be phased out of society and respect for our earth will return. Technologies that free humanity vs. enslave it will emerge like the soccer ball sized vortex electrical generator that can power cars and houses indefinitely that NASA uses in deep space probes. Solar panels aren't much good between the stars. They need something based in free energy technology. There's over 5,000 patents for free energy technology in the patent office right now. Transform the military industrial complex into manufacturing these technologies for the benefit of humanity. You, the OWS, need to look into these technologies and ideas and start demanding them and not only that but get information about the technologies out there because the majority of the public doesn't believe in free energy technology thanks to the current energy companies slandering the idea for more than a century because they want the people to be dependent on them to control them in fear.
So you're telling me an astrophysicist should make the same amount of money as a grocery store bag boy? I'm sorry, that system is flawed as hell.
agreed.
Absolutely. You obliterate class and people who think that they're better than other people because they have more money. When everyone makes the same amount then everyone becomes part of a community of sane people. When one person benefits everyone does. It's a collective effort.
P.S. Take responsibility and bag your own groceries and scrub your own toilets. There are no slaves in an equal economy and for those who take responsibility for their own develop a sense of appreciation for what they have vs. the insane psychological cognitive distortion of entitlement that the wealthy have contracted over years of being 'lords' to financial slaves.
How is it fair and right that one man studies and or works his ass off to do well at his job, and another just does bare minimum and they both get paid the same? The world would never agree to this type of system. In a perfect world where each individual truly did their own personal best this may work, but we live in a world of slackers and hard workers and all that's in-between. If the man next to me is studying and working harder then me, then that man certainly deserves to be fairly compensated for all his time and effort. Do agree with ya on the free energy part though, but the greedy bastards who run this world will never allow that to come to pass, look at how many inventors have be silenced and even killed to suppress free energy and the likes...
They'll allow the free energy when everyone demands it. They can't control us all at once. Everyone needs to be educated about the science and possibilities so they can begin to understand how it's even possible. So education is key here.
It is actually fair. The current system coerces people against their will to 'work' (slave) to prevent suffering and/or death so people don't go to work because they want to but instead they do because they have to in order to survive. That makes the current system slavery based on the ethics of the system. How many people do you know say "gee, I just can't wait to go to work today!"? People today get paid based on how much they work for the dollar bill as opposed to their contribution to society in a positive and loving way. That is destroying our society. Competition is working against each other as opposed to a team effort. Would you rather live in a world where everyone is trying to bash each other's face in to get ahead of the other (that's competition) or would you rather work as a team effort to benefit everyone's equally?
The reason why equal pay is fair is because of the reason why we would go to work. It wouldn't be 'work' if we choose to do it as opposed to being coerced to do it. Equal pay means no centralization of wealth or power of control over others. People who are healers or engineers would be just as happy digging a ditch or cleaning a toilet because they're benefiting everyone just being selfish and benefiting only themselves which is what happens today except that they benefit off of the slavery of others which violates their created right to free will. Who wants to be knowingly controlled? No one.
As an analogy imagine people climbing on top of each other. The bottom people get smashed/killed while the people on top have no idea what's going on. The people in the middle are crushing the bottom people and supporting the people on top just to remain comfortable. That's today's society. In an equal pay society everyone walks in the same direction and they get somewhere with ease and comfort. The people who don't want to walk with them will be left behind and they'll eventually run to catch up because they don't want to be alone. No one will force or coerce them. It's a fair society.
If you diagnosed the economic system today like a psychologist would diagnose the mental health of a patent, society would be in a straight jacket! lol It's dangerous to themselves and everyone else. The ones who are not physically suffering are psychologically suffering. And when you suffer you become a danger to yourself and others most often times in ways that you can't detect physically.
I fully agree that we MUST get the world out about free energy asap! I dont agree with being made to work to survive is slavery, it is simply the human plight with or without government control etc. We MUST work the fields to eat. We MUST make clothing to be clothed. We MUST clean daily to prevent disease and rampant filth. We MUST work if we are to survive period, even in the system you speak of. That is not slavery that is the way of life and has been from the dawn of ages. Being that we must work to survive, those that work harder deserve compensation for putting forth more effort period. The knowledge of receiving higher compensation for better work is what motivates humans to do better work, or work at all. If there was no compensation for good effort then we would see masses doing slacker jobs and our way of life being diminished by such. This is just how us humans work. We need motivation to drive us to work, or study harder. Like I said in a perfect world we would all simply work as hard as the next man because we were full of conviction, fairness, and love....but imho until the day of the Lord this will not be the case. We humans, though mostly good at our core, do not all care for the betterment of those around us as much as we care for our own selves and selfish desires. Thus many would sit back and let the other carry their load. This is why I see your proposed system as flawed. Wealth shouldn't have to equal power and control, only more luxury which would be earned by hard work. It should be illegal to buy politicians and others off like commodities...this would go along way to remove power coming from money, but currently politicians and the like ARE bought, which is a BIG part of the problem. I do however feel that pay for everyone should be brought down into a more rational ratio. Actors, athletes, CEO's, etc. etc., do not deserve pay that is so irrationally astronomical, as they are NOT working harder or have studied more than so many who HAVE worked and studies just as hard.
I believe you missed my whole point altogether.
[Removed]
Give up the childish whining in the streets and have your smartest leaders run for office like the Tea Party did. Maybe then you'll have a shot.
The WHOLE POINT is that the electoral system has been irretrievably corrupted by corporate and special-interest money. But you still want OWS to just "run for office." LOL...that's like telling a person whose car is broken down by the side of the road to "just drive to the repair shop"--it ain't gonna happen! THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN. And simply doing what we've always done isn't going to cut it anymore. That's really all OWS is saying...
Oh shut up Vooter,we already know your true feelings for the 99%.
So you're going to do what? stand with signs kicking and screaming until the government changes itself? You have to do something within the system if you expect change. Otherwise, those same people you despise will continue running and voting and making changes you probably won't like. If you want corporate and union money out of politics you damn well better find people who are going to help you accomplish this.
It's called "revolution." We're not there yet, but years and years of grinding poverty will get us there. And if you don't think that the U.S. is headed for years of grinding poverty, then you're not paying attention. But do me a favor--when the shit finally does hit the fan, don't embarrass yourself by saying "How did this happen?!"
Yeah. You just said that but in different words. Sounds like you're just going to sit back and watch rather than participate in making changes. Need some popcorn?
Let's recap:
Me: The system is broken. Pinker: You have to work within the system.
Any questions?
You say the system is broken. What is your plan to fix it?
I've said many times what needs to be done:
Overturn Citizens United, ban all special-interest money in politics, and reinstate Glass-Steagall, among other things. I understand what SHOULD happen, but trying to work within a system that is DEVOTED to keeping special-interest money in politics is like trying to persuade the wolves to dismantle the henhouse. The only answer in such a case is to eliminate the wolves. How you do that, I'm not sure, but simply asking them to change their ways isn't going to work. Movements like OWS are necessary to at least put the wolves on notice, and that's exactly what has happened--millions and millions of Americans who wouldn't have thought twice about special-interest corruption and the need for campaign-finance reform three months ago are now talking about it. So how would YOU have started that conversation?
You make those changes by participating. By electing public servants who actually serve the public. Look, I'm not dissing all of the ideas of OWS, just the lack of proceeding to commit to make those changes. You accept the fact that the govt is not going to be overthrown - those millions and millions you speak of aren't on board with that. Therefore, the only option is to participate in the overhaul. Defeatism is not participating.
[Removed]
Yes, OWS is a wste of time. Spend your energy, time, and money on more worth endeavors. This was all a contrivance by a Canadian named Kalle Lasn. You have been manipulated and duped. Sorry.
Yes, you should give up. OWS is an absolute wast of time. Spend your time, moeny, and efforts on more worthy pursuits.
Your friend,
THE Lardbutt
Dear Lardbutt, lol just wanted to type that...hehe but i will be waiting for OWS to up the ante and show some real tangible direction...i'll be there when that happens. ;-)
I agree with you. But unfortunately the founders of OWS and the hidden leadership don't want anything like that. they want to crush capitalism and collapse our government. This would hurt all Americans immensely but they don't care, because they are operating under some marxist utopian philosophy that nobody agrees with. They are a fringe group, using people's angst to serve their purposes. What would be best is for all the OWS people who love America, and want an end to the corruption in Washington and Wall Street to form a new organization with defined goals and a well planned strategy that can be implemented, rather than this ridiculous mass protest that is meant to lead to riots. Don't think that the OWs people aren't wanting full blown riots and police violence. Rules for Radicals. The ends justifies the means. People need to stop being suckers and see OWS for what it is. A marxists wet dream.
I dont think OWS will ever get the majority of Americans on board until they begin to show they are doing more than just bitching. Heck they have every right to bitch about the problems, all of us Americans do, but the movement must grow up into a organization that offers an avenue for true change, lest even its supporters fall away.
What we need are business leaders of small businesses to join together and demand hearings in Congress about corruption and election reform.Then sue in court if it is not done in a mass case against the two parties and all elected officials. I am trying to get that accomplished. And i say business leaders, because they are the most experienced people in developing a plan and implementing it.
I myself do not claim to be educated enough to know exactly how to go about making a real change, I just know that this doesnt seem to be working..
The thing to remember is "Its a start". Wanting to disrupt the money system in this country could be the biggest challenge ever had by any group of individuals.
At least it is causing a dialogue. People are discussing what before was a blind charge off the edge. I don't think anyone has come up with the right solution yet, but the public is awakening to blatant corruption.
Jimboiam.... I agree with you to the core. This all seems to be protesting to be one of the cool kids but no real solutions, positive steps or care for the end effect.
The Tea Party, and i mean the real Tea Party, (not these GOP, Koch supported right wingers), need to jump at the chance to inform these upset young people into taking action to fix our broken government and return our republic. We need to help them break away from these marxists puppeteers who are running this OWS thing, and just focus on the corruption issue.
We are all American citizens and we need to band together on the problems we agree on first and foremost. Tea Partyers and Occupiers might not agree on a lot, but that's human. Let's tackle the issues that are obviously plaguing us all. Would that movement belong to the Tea-Cup party?
Koch control is a myth... granted the GOP tried to tame us from day one. But more GOP people where ousted than democrats by the Tea Party. We need to focus on congress. No one else.
With the way things are going i want gridlock in Washington. Nobody can pass some hyper partisan measure when you have the President and Congress at odds. Stick some more rules on them while they are in gridlock to further tie their hands. Relegate them down to only passing a budget. No new programs, no new spending, reduce the spending increases and make them powerless for at least 5 years. The economy would recover if they believed Washington couldn't do anything for 5 years.