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Forum Post: Anti-politics: Hating Government, While Ignoring Private Power -- Noam Chomsky

Posted 6 months ago on April 17, 2014, 12:45 p.m. EST by struggleforfreedom80 (6584)
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89 Comments


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[-] 4 points by Ache4Change (3158) 6 months ago

An excellent short video about Democracy and how it is subverted and here is another such video - http://www.nationofchange.org/happy-tax-day-and-why-top-1-percent-pay-much-lower-tax-rate-you-1397657738 -- Never Give Up Explaining And Exposing! Occupy The Real 99% Agenda! Solidarity.

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[-] 0 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

really good - explains a lot doesn't it?

[-] 6 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

He's describing these alex jones/ron paul-followers pretty well. We shouldn't make fun of them though --they've been duped. These people shouldn't be ridiculed, they should be educated.

[-] 1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

agreed - too many are not educable

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[-] 1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

to you? nothing - word is you read my hightower post on the usps. wow he is good no?

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[-] 7 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

We're just going to have to keep on trying, shooz. I'm not here as often as you, who are these libertarians on this forum?

[-] 1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

right on again - he will tell you I am one of them - obvious nonsense. seems to me the most disruptive people here are those who will not allow any criticism of Obama or the democrats. to them that is a sign you are libertarian - they are allowed to lie and insult while often very even handed comments are removed. anyone who knows anything about ows - at least while the occupations still in place - knows that ows was critical of both parties

[-] 5 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

Ok. Just one thing. I believe I saw somewhere that you had posted something about Glenn Beck "being right for once" or something like that. If you don't want these suspicions towards you, then you should probably think twice about saying things like that.

But let's stop the rumors right now. Where do you stand politically?

I have seen people here becoming somewhat hostile when someone's taking on the Democrats, and because of this resorting to rather primitive and uncivilized way of debating. I don't think that's particularly helpful either.

The Democrats are also to a large extent under the control of the corporate puppeteers, they deserve to be criticized as well.

[-] -1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

i thought it was obvious when i made the broken clock comment - even a broken clock is right twice a day - no? lots of people including ron paul and pat b say things that we can all agree with (and nobody is correct all the time). ows is a movement that is inclusive - that is my experience anyway. not here which is too bad but in ows occupations. we should all decide what is right and wrong based on what people say and do not who they are or the phd after their name. Nixon was a miserable lying bastard (like most of our presidents) but he was for national health care and a guaranteed minimum income. should we disagree with that because Nixon was for it? anyway if you don't know already i favor anarchism as a philosophy and a system to move towards. as howard zinn says - "if you realize your goals in your lifetime they were too modest!" in real life i am a capitalist - own my own business and am trying to make enough money to retire in my old age - that would be now. i have been marching and protesting on all sorts of issues since 1968! i voted for McGovern in 72 and then Clinton (never again) - nader a couple of times and Obama (never again) once because i wanted to stay married! now none of this should matter and i am a bit annoyed that i need to say it. i had many discussions in zuccotti park and nobody asked anything like this - they were interested in the facts of the situation under discussion and your analysis. your comment about "somewhat hostile" makes me think that you are much too kind! i posted this a while ago and it should explain what i think - SPIEGEL: So for you, Republicans and Democrats represent just slight variations of the same political platform?

Chomsky: Of course there are differences, but they are not fundamental. Nobody should have any illusions. The United States has essentially a one-party system and the ruling party is the business party.

SPIEGEL: You exaggerate. In almost all vital questions -- from the taxation of the rich to nuclear energy -- there are different positions. At least on the issues of war and peace, the parties differ considerably. The Republicans want to fight in Iraq until victory, even if that takes a 100 years, according to McCain. The Democrats demand a withdrawal plan.

Chomsky: Let us look at the “differences” more closely, and we recognize how limited and cynical they are. The hawks say, if we continue we can win. The doves say, it is costing us too much. But try to find an American politician who says frankly that this aggression is a crime: the issue is not whether we win or not, whether it is expensive or not. Remember the Russian invasion of Afghanistan? Did we have a debate whether the Russians can win the war or whether it is too expensive? This may have been the debate at the Kremlin, or in Pravda. But this is the kind of debate you would expect in a totalitarian society. If General Petraeus could achieve in Iraq what Putin achieved in Chechnya, he would be crowned king. The key question here is whether we apply the same standards to ourselves that we apply to others.

[-] 5 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

Ok. That's fine, flip. My only point was, if you're being wrongfully accused of being a right-winger and would like the rumors to end, then maybe there are other things you should focus on than picking out the very few reasonable things that this ultra right-wing douchebag has said thruout his career. That's all.

Ok, so you're an anarchist. Good. Me too.

[-] 3 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

I would like to add one (obvious) point here - there are two groups that attack the democrat party. one, of course, is the republican right but the other is the real radical left. anarchists and real small d democrats. zinn, hedges, Chomsky, max neef, - should I go on? it is really very telling that one would assume the critic to be republican or libertarian. also it should go without saying that if the facts and the analysis are correct - who cares where it comes from?

[-] 7 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

Sure. I agree. But again, picking out the few reasonable things a right-wing, anti-union, pro-capitalist conspiracy dirtbag has said, is probably not the best idea if you would like those rumors to end.

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[-] 6 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

Listen, I understand your hatred for the GOP, but like I said before, the name-calling and the fuck you's don't help your cause, it just makes you look like a brat.

The Democrats will remain the servants of their corporate masters as long as the population doesn't rise up and demand change. But pushing democrats more to the left will naturally have to include criticizing the Dems when they deserve it--which is often.

I don't think there are many on the left that doesn't agree that the Republicans are really destructive. But that doesn't mean that the sins of the Democrats should be overlooked.

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[-] 6 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

If you want to continue acting like a little brat, then go right ahead. It doesn't help your cause, though.

"this flipper fuker is a repelican stoog"

What makes you say that?

[-] 3 points by granada (38) 6 months ago

What makes him say, "this flipper fuker is a repelican stoog" is ...he has hopes that by maliciously denigrating anyone who is not a partisan Democrat....that people will reach the conclusion that only pro-neocon-Democrats are the true Occupiers & that everyone else is an imposter. It's a kinda child-like psychology that he uses...lol

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[-] 1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

yes thanks for the advice - it is good advice but i still don't like it. not that i don't like you giving me advice but it is very disheartening that the advice has to be given. now that is the only thing i have ever posted like that - everything else is for the real anarchist tradition and it has not stopped the silliness from some. i think the problem is with those who do this type of thing not what is posted - ok, sorry - it is a sore subject and i am ranting. seems to me that ows is the best thing to happen in the country since 1972. the park is gone and i miss it. i had hoped this forum would be something along the same line and it is not! thanks again - i won't be posting anything else from glen - i imagine he will not say anything that i agree with again anyway - and he is a really sick fuck but i blame those who pay him - millions! the respectable men - one of them is a big dem supporter - how about them apples

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[-] 7 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

What are you doing? Do you think that acting like a 9 year old brat is going to help your cause?

Come on, you're smarter than this.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 6 months ago

Don't mind him - Hitlary is his avowed choice for POTUS !!! So, IF he is 'smarter than a 9 year old brat', then it's not by much !! His deep hatred of the Republicans (not a bad thing per se), has little to do with any affiliation to 'Left / Liberal / Progressive' politics and much more to do with his rejection, disdain and denial of his own right wing upbringing .. and his suffering from Corporate MSM-programming of course !

In short his reactionary verbosity emanates more from psychology and 'personal issues' than any 'Class Politics or Analysis' and is at variance with OWS goals, imo. For corroboration of what I say here, see :

Re. the last link, he labours under a contrived and faux delusion that I am a - 'Pat Buchanan Libertarian' lol .. whereas I know for a Stone Cold Fact - that he thinks that that Neoliberal / Neocon haridan, Hitlary Clinton, is somehow a saviour for The 99% !!! This is also the true voice of 'The DNC Faction' here which is why he gets carte blanche with his language and bullying behaviour. However, he's due a taste of his own medicine & I've nominated myself as his ''huckleberry'' for this Easter, lol !! So .. watch this space !

oderint dum metuant ...

[-] 2 points by granada (38) 6 months ago

From having viewed several exchanges between the two of you, I think you will be an excellent "huckleberry" for his Easter. As for the audience......popping jelly beans while watching a Dem-neocon get some un-boiled Easter egg thrown at him....gosh it doesn't get any better than that.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 6 months ago

I'm afraid that I couldn't consider wasting an egg on him and I may have to let you down - IF he's now skidaddled off to go remonstrate with his friends, lolol. However, I will recommend this to you instead : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2Xh5eN2fXY & sorry for any disappointment but it is worth a view.

pax ...

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[-] 1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

now that was well thought out!

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 6 months ago

It did not need much 'thinking' tho' as I spent some time with him yesterday (see those links) and he pretty much 'self-exposed himself' to me !!! No wonder he kept going on about ''fig leaves'' lol !! Ahem ! Please also see my last link to him [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2Xh5eN2fXY ] for some info.

fiat lux ...

[-] 0 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

good video - not sure i would like to spend some time with him - seems bipolar at best. i guess you are not heading to vt to have a face to face

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 6 months ago

I guess not but we should be mindful of upsetting him too much lest he lose all 'Zen' & just become all 'Dog' !!! He is anti-gun-control too !! Potentially ''bipolar'' + guns = bad combination ! Too much violence in your country already man & also fyi btw : http://www.wired.com/2014/04/tomas-van-houtryve-drones/ .

fiat pax ...

[-] 0 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

I should learn to be nicer. Maybe I will start tomorrow.

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[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 6 months ago

Spoken like a true narcissist !!! Hmmm, ''later today'' huh ?!! But I was there already and your friends in 'Burlington Square' .. who were there sniffing glue and drinking methylated spirits from dark bottles with no labels, said that tho' you tried to cultivate a loving heart, your head was more mixed up than evil and that I should not kick your ass in your home town & so I've teleported back across The Atlantic and will have to do it metaphorically on t'inter-web here instead !

Now, I keep opening and looking at your links - but dare you do the same to my links ? Have you a few minutes ? Sitting comfortably ?

verum ex absurdo ...

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[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 6 months ago

Oh, okay ! I'll try not to make noises like retreating poultry at you !! Don't be cross or violent with your friends tho' 'Dog', they were only trying to protect you !!! In the meantime, I'll strongly recommend that video [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2Xh5eN2fXY ] to all 'Mericanians' & a Happy Easter Peeps.

e tenebris, lux ...

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[-] -1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

boy you catch on quick - the new guy here is very sharp it seems to me. you will see much more of this if you can stick it out and i hope you do. be careful of the removals though and sometimes a well thought out rebuttal is grounds for removal

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[-] 0 points by JGriff99mph (507) 6 months ago

Classy as usual.

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[-] -1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

don't believe in heaven or hell - dust to dust man so swear all you lie

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[-] 1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

we agree on bots and the like (although i am not so sure what they are) and also agree on transparency - nice we agree! now is this for the purpose of ridicule or education - SPIEGEL: So for you, Republicans and Democrats represent just slight variations of the same political platform?

Chomsky: Of course there are differences, but they are not fundamental. Nobody should have any illusions. The United States has essentially a one-party system and the ruling party is the business party.

SPIEGEL: You exaggerate. In almost all vital questions -- from the taxation of the rich to nuclear energy -- there are different positions. At least on the issues of war and peace, the parties differ considerably. The Republicans want to fight in Iraq until victory, even if that takes a 100 years, according to McCain. The Democrats demand a withdrawal plan.

Chomsky: Let us look at the “differences” more closely, and we recognize how limited and cynical they are. The hawks say, if we continue we can win. The doves say, it is costing us too much. But try to find an American politician who says frankly that this aggression is a crime: the issue is not whether we win or not, whether it is expensive or not. Remember the Russian invasion of Afghanistan? Did we have a debate whether the Russians can win the war or whether it is too expensive? This may have been the debate at the Kremlin, or in Pravda. But this is the kind of debate you would expect in a totalitarian society. If General Petraeus could achieve in Iraq what Putin achieved in Chechnya, he would be crowned king. The key question here is whether we apply the same standards to ourselves that we apply to others.

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[-] 0 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

huh

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[-] 1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

did i ever imply that Chomsky says no point in voting. i did say emma goldman said "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." now Chomsky said this " I agree. One has to pick the lesser of two evils, and there are substantial differences. If I were in a swing state, I'd vote against any Republican (hence necessarily for Obama)." to flesh out his argument though i should also give you this part of the interview - "Noam Chomsky- It's true that their are similarities, but it's not quite the case. Obama is quite different from the Republican candidates, and the constituencies of the two political organizations differ, which helps lead to different policies. Over a long stretch, for example, working people have made out better under Democratic than Republican administrations--which is kind of ironic, because the white working class is now mostly Republican, not on economic but on "social" and "cultural" issues.

kcrob2001- Obama isn't what his voters wanted him to be. It seems to me that his voters expected him to save the country and all would be well, but that is obviously not happening. In your career, have you ever come to a solid conclusion that the structure of the U.S. government is unsavable? What I mean is, there isn't a force of any kind that would combat the inner erosion we are seen now.

Noam Chomsky- It's not a matter of Yes or No but of More or Less. There have been plenty of times when popular pressures led to improvements, sometimes major ones.

kcrob2001- I've said that a democracy can't last, and I believe you have written about how shaky a democracy can be. Do you think another system of government would produce better results, and would it be possible to make such a shift using popular pressures?

Noam Chomsky- What we're seeing is that a partial democracy is being shredded by concentrated domestic power. Authentic democracy would have a much better chance to thrive and flourish, I think. I don't know of any preferable alternative.

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[-] 1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

i guess you can't read - too bad - is it dyslexia or just plain old stupidity

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[-] 5 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

Many people, right-libertarians included, will never change their minds, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to enlighten people (who are in many ways victims of propagandists and fearmongers). We should try to reach out and enlighten people who support capitalism and other intolerable systems.

Eventually there has to be a systemic change, and that means that there's a lot of educating and enlightening ahead of us (in addition to other things as well, of course )

Whether they're democrats, republicans, libertarians etc, we should try to convince as many of them as possible that what they're supporting is intolerable and unsustainable.

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[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

Capitalism is intolerable whether it's regulated or non-regulated. It should eventually be dismantled.

https://occupywallst.org/forum/abolish-capitalism/

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[-] 9 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

It's not naive at all. Today people gather and make common decisions in all kinds of ways. There are numerous of neighborhoods, communities, cooperatives and so on, in which people gather and democratically decide on how things are run. Take Mondragon, for example. It's not a perfect utopia, but it's a pretty large scale network of cooperatives working together on schooling, banking, industry, agriculture and so on, and where everything is controlled democratically by the workers. Again, not 100% perfect, but it shows that private ownership of the means of production (capitalism) is unnecessary. And there are plenty of other examples as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJDhKMrncw&list=PLJ5zzDSL0WHpN7SCm2je69kToUPn4EN5W

I'm not an expert on all Occupy-GAs, but I believe there was a little too much focus on consensus. Building consensus can be very time consuming; this method is also vulnerable to sabotage etc. Occupy organizers should learn from past mistakes, and try to construct better ways of doing things. It's nothing to be ashamed of, you can't expect everythign to go smoothly all the time.

[-] 2 points by granada (38) 6 months ago

You are right, "It's not naive"..... You're a real asset to our struggle, as is this young man in the south Bronx who is assisting people in setting up co-ops. I've seen this bright young man, Omar Freilla give a super presentaion in NY at the Unitarian church on the upper East Side.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/03/omar-freilla-green-jobs_n_917264.html

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

Yeah, I'm aware of the Green Worker Cooperatives in Bronx. It's really great to see cooperatives popping up all over the place. This is the future. A co-operative economic system is what we should strive for.

Our highest priority should be to do what we can in order to strengthen workers' rights and trying to implement as much democracy into the workplace as possible--including in existing institutions.

[-] 1 points by granada (38) 6 months ago

Thanks, anyone who has listened to a presentattion by Mr Freilla and doesn't come away inspired is ....well un-inspirable. He is proof-positive that this movement is in good hands with people who know it doesn't have to be like this.

Here (below link) is a series of cool stories about people who are taking the bull by the horns ...starting with a group in Ohio I have known about for quite a while. Notice the difference in people who haven't lost hope ....and those on here who think that we have to settle for the same old with new faces.

http://youtu.be/5dm114sD4I8

I'm not sure what Easter means to you...perhaps religious, or being with, or remembering family gatherings, etc. Whatever have a good one.

[-] 1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

have I told you that you're the man! or was that someone else - I am pretty old (that's one of the reasons that can't fool me with the same old shit - I have heard that sad old story too many times) anyway I cannot always remember what I say to whom. I think it is called pascals wager - if you assume there is no hope - you guarantee that there is no hope! you keep doing what you do - I am impressed and I am not easily impressed.

[-] 1 points by granada (38) 6 months ago

Thanks...You remember correctly, but be reminded that I am just one old spoke in a wheel that has many...which includes the many good posters on here who refuse to accept another version of the corrupt status quo.

[-] 1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

a nice strong spoke

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[-] 0 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

good article - there are people like this all over the country (and the world) doing work that never makes the news. the capitalist press knows how to keep this kind of thing to a minimum. good work man

[-] 1 points by granada (38) 6 months ago

The above reply was meant for you.

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[-] 6 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

Exactly. Agreed!

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[-] -1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

you are right - many grassroots tea party types have the same complaints as ows. the beginning of the end of the Vietnam war was the teach ins. the civil rights movement was largely about showing average americans what was happening. lastly a fairly large percentage of americans think "from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" - is in the constitution - they just need a little better education

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[-] -2 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

wrong again

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[-] -1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

you did notice it was a question - usually questions are not evidence or confessions and by the way - I hope I don't annoy you here but thanks for not slamming me with obscenities

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[-] 1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

did you see a drip and who deleted my comment - do you know?

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[-] 1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

you are correct - you caught me - I do not read what you write at all carefully - can you guess why?

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[-] 1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

thanks for that - i tried to read it carefully and seems you had something to say. nice going. i don't vote - here or in federal elections. i read emma goldman a long time ago and agree with her on voting. ok, so i lied again - i have voted here maybe twice - both i think for cicero. i am old and can't remember what i did exactly. i also voted for McGovern in 72 - nader a couple of times - slick willy once - never again for that bastard and Obama in the last election. my wife was worried he would lose and she beat on me until i agreed to vote - i will vote for lizzy if she runs or Bernie - we will see what the dems put up but i will not vote for a mainstream dem again - fool me once ...........

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[-] -1 points by flip (7039) 6 months ago

no I did not delete it - I wonder who did and why. any idea?? so what the hell is it then - seems a contradiction in terms - enlighten me oh great wise one

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