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Forum Post: An Estimated 100 MILLION Strike in India

Posted 1 year ago on Feb. 20, 2013, 4:48 p.m. EST by TrevorMnemonic (5827)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

An estimated 100 million Indians, angry about rising prices, low pay and poor working condition, walked off their jobs on Wednesday, on the first day of a two-day strike organised by eleven major trade unions.

Cool video - http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2013/02/201322016857755633.html

83 Comments

83 Comments


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[-] 7 points by shadz66 (18009) 1 year ago

"Decolonize the Consumerist Wasteland - Re-imagining a world beyond capitalism and commumism", by Arundhati Roy :

Here in India, even in the midst of all the violence and greed, there is still hope. If anyone can do it, we can. We still have a population that has not yet been completely colonized by that consumerist dream.

We have a living tradition of those who have struggled for Gandhi's vision of sustainability and self-reliance, for socialist ideas of egalitarianism and social justice. We have Ambedkar's vision, which challenges the Gandhians as well as the socialists in serious ways. We have the most spectacular coalition of resistance movements, with their experience, understanding and vision.

Most important of all, India has a surviving adivasi (aboriginal) population of almost 100 million. They are the ones who still know the secrets of sustainable living. If they disappear, they will take those secrets with them. Wars like Operation Green Hunt will make them disappear. So victory for the prosecutors of these wars will contain within itself the seeds of destruction, not just for adivasis but, eventually, for the human race. That's why we need a real and urgent conversation between all those political formations that are resisting this war.

The day capitalism is forced to tolerate non-capitalist societies in its midst and to acknowledge limits in its quest for domination, the day it is forced to recognize that its supply of raw material will not be endless, is the day when change will come.

If there is any hope for the world at all, it does not live in climate-change conference rooms or in cities with tall buildings. It lives low down on the ground, with its arms around the people who go to battle every day to protect their forests, their mountains and their rivers because they know that the forests, the mountains and the rivers protect them.

The first step toward re-imagining a world gone terribly wrong would be to stop the annihilation of those who have a different imagination – an imagination that is outside of capitalism as well as communism. An imagination which has an altogether different understanding of what constitutes happiness and fulfillment.

To gain this philosophical space, it is necessary to concede some physical space for the survival of those who may look like the keepers of our past but who may really be the guides to our future. To do this, we have to ask our rulers: Can you leave the waters in the rivers, the trees in the forest? Can you leave the bauxite in the mountain? If they say they cannot, then perhaps they should stop preaching morality to the victims of their wars.

~

respice, adspice, prospice ...

~

Arundhati Roy is a celebrated novelist. This article is excerpted from her recent book, "Walking with the Comrades" in which Arundhati reflects on her time spent with Maoist guerrilla insurgents in India.

This article was originally posted at Adbusters [ https://www.adbusters.org/magazine/101/decolonize-consumerist-wasteland.html ]

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I read this on another thread, Shadz.

Brilliant author, and insightful prose.

There'll come a time when gadgets and games don't fill the void in western society. I'm hoping it doesn't result in too many deaths, but rarely can a system be torn apart and rebuilt without some kind of pain.

Eggs must be broken to bake a cake.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (18009) 1 year ago

Re. the ever inspiring Arundhati Roy & OWS @ The Judson Memorial Church on 16th Nov'11, I append :

“Pity the nation that has to silence its writers for speaking their minds… Pity the nation that needs to jail those who ask for justice while communal killers, mass murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists and those who prey on the poorest of the poor, roam free.”

Also, please consider her famous Post-9/!! essay :

Finally, a long and wide ranging essay :

"Capitalism is in crisis. Trickledown failed. Now Gush-Up is in trouble too. The international financial meltdown is closing in. India’s growth rate has plummeted to 6.9 per cent. Foreign investment is pulling out. Major international corporations are sitting on huge piles of money, not sure where to invest it, not sure how the financial crisis will play out. This is a major, structural crack in the juggernaut of global capital."

"Capitalism’s real “grave-diggers” may end up being its own delusional Cardinals, who have turned ideology into faith. Despite their strategic brilliance, they seem to have trouble grasping a simple fact: Capitalism is destroying the planet. The two old tricks that dug it out of past crises—War and Shopping—simply will not work."

"Eggs must be broken to" to make an omelette too 'B' & I hope 'Pork-Bone Puppy', bubba-chucks & your Macadamia Trees are all good and y'all are keeping cool. Solidarity.

pax ...

[-] 1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Have to mention it, because it's the one exception. The 99% Conglomerate will be able to bake the cake without protest, resistance from corporations/governments, or even real effort from it's supporters.

Pretty slick, strategically speaking, if you ask me. I'll all for non-violent win win win situations.

[-] -1 points by Narley (-634) 1 year ago

Buy guns, lots of ammo. Learn to live off the grid. Doom is upon us. Is that your message?

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Don't need a gun to live off the grid.

Do what you can to stop being a mindless consumer.

That's the message.

[-] 2 points by Narley (-634) 1 year ago

Uber consumerism is a disease. I think should be a clinically diagnosed illness. Everyone think they need a big screen TV, a $500 iPhone, the most in vogue clothes and live in the most exclusive neighborhoods. People think nothing of spending $25K on a new car and $4 on a cup of coffee. We buy every new shiny thing that comes along. There is no end in sight. The only solution is another depression and no credit. People will not willingly give up their life styles.

As far as living of the grid. People have too much a romantic idea of what living off the grid entails. I grew up on a farm. No running water, just water wells. We did have electricity, but it only worked half the time. Growing your own food takes time and effort, and you’re limited to seasonal veggies. It’s a difficult life. I could do it again if I had to, but I’d rather have take out pizza.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Narley, I bet you much prefer a hefty turn of the thernostat, over having a wood stove too

Be careful of that pizza tho, 'cause you do know that once you get 100 miles from NYC, you're taking your chances

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by Narley (-634) 1 year ago

Oh, you bring back memories of childhood. We had a wood cook stove and pot belly stove in the living room. I’ve chopped more firewood than I care to remember. Also a gun or two becomes essential to hunt and hold off predators. At this very moment I keep a rifle at the back door because we have an abundance of coyotes.

As I said, too many people have overly romantic views of living off the grid. It’s a hard life. Just sustenance living. I’ll take modern accommodations any day. Suffice to say I’m an old guy.

As for NY pizza, I’m halfway across the continent. I have to take what I can get. Where I live it’s easier to find BBQ joints and tacos; but I still prefer pizza.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

,That line about the thermostat is from the book Real Vermonters Don't Burn Wood, and that book is a take-off on the Real Men Don't Eat Quiche book....which reminds me; What are the qualities a real man looks for in a real woman? Errr, i better answer that in a PM if you don't know as i suspect there may be some feminists here who might not like the answer. lol

I remember moving out of suburbia years ago with my new NZ bride, and our Mother Earth News's in tow, to start living the country life in northern New York state, near the Vermont border. When we got up there though, we found that people were tired of that country life bullshit, and like you wanted all the fast food and modern stuff. I do think they found us kind of peculiar, and amusing tho...

I used to have a big old Glenwood Oak pot-belly stove with white brass trim around it. That sucker could throw some heat out, and because it was on the bottom floor by the spiral staircase, it would heat the whole house up.

Several years ago one of my daughters was driving cross-country with a girlfriend. I called her and found out they would be in Kansas City in a couple of hours, so since i wanted to buy her and her girlfriend dinner there, I went on the internet to find a good place. I ended up with the original Arthur Bryant's BBQ in KC. Later that night she called and said that although the area around it was kind of seedy, it was the best BBQ they ever had

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by Narley (-634) 1 year ago

We still have a wood burning fireplace. A few years ago I installed an insert and piping to warm other rooms. I love that fireplace. Rarely have to use the central heating system. But firewood is expensive these days. I buy by the cord. No more wood cutting for me.

In northeast Texas BBQ is a staple food. But I’m burnt out on beef. Doesn’t matter the cut or how it’s prepared. I rarely eat beef anymore. Having fresh crab or oysters is a delicacy for me. I like pizza, but only chain stores around here.

One of the biggest problems for farmers, or anyone living rural, is feral hogs. They’ve had an population explosion the past few years. They ruin fields crops and fields just rooting around. Not to mention they’re dangerous. The State of Texas has started offering a bounty on feral hogs. Farmers will even pay you to hunt hogs on their property. I can live with the coyotes, but the stinking hogs are a real problem. My two son-in-laws and I are going hog hunting this week-end in this cold weather. One was going to bring one of those AR-15’s. I told him no, that’s not a powerful enough round for hog hunting. I’m letting him use my .308 bolt-action.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

We had a real nice Vermont Castings stove in Vermont that I regret that I didn't keep when we sold the house

Those hogs can get nasty, eh? Sweden has a lot of the wild pigs running around too.

I too eat very little beef, but have pizza almost every time I go to NYC

Unlike the country or suburbia, NYC has a lot of independent businesses, and people get their veges from the vege man, fish from the fishy man, etc., and i think except the air quality not being as good, they get more excercise as they walk more...not a lot of heavy-set people there

Never owned a gun....I would if i lived in AK... respect your right to own one....Odd isn't it, my two daughters who own guns for good reasons are vegetarians, and the one daughter who isn't a vege doesn't own one either..... and I do not think that we need assault rifles

~Odin~

[-] -2 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

It's astounding how your vision is limited.

Occupy wants a revolution, no? They want to create a better world. They used to say we needed a general assembly on each street corner. The problem is not everybody can attend general assemblies. Some are stuck at home, on trips, busy, etc...

The only way that the people can organize themselves on a world scale is with the use of the Internet. If we are limited to face-to-face talks, then Occupy will never achieve it's goal to create a better world.

Don't dish the idea of a communal forum. It's the first step towards a world revolution.

Don't dish unity. That comes from working together, on things like a forum.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

If you are truly interested in the success of this movement, as I have said before, YOU should search ways that YOU could help progress our (?) struggle in POSITIVE non-divisional ways

~Odin~

[-] -3 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

Sharing the idea of a community based website where Internet users could be in touch with occupiers on the ground is one way I help this movement. It's an idea that would create unity amongst occupiers like never before. It would enable more people to communicate, and, more importantly, more people would be able to directly impact Occupy in practice.

Why do you sign as "Odin". Is it because you use multiple sock puppets on this site? Haven't you been rejected by Occupy on numerous occasions, banned if you will? Occupy banned you because you were helping the movement? Strange. Perhaps you were trolling the site? Perhaps you were being divisive and showing dissent? Perhaps you even shared the idea of creating a Bridge To The Ground?

You're one of the heaviest users of sock puppets here, and that's because Occupy keeps rejecting you.

Thing is, this site does not represent Occupy and you know it. If it did, it would be a community run site and you wouldn't be booted out of here left and right.

Occupy is supposed to be a community effort, is it not?

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

If Sarah Palin is considered the "Mama Bear" of the Republican party then consider me the 'Papa Bear,' of Occupy, at least when it comes to all the mostly young people whom i know personally that sacrifice so much of their time and enrgy to OUR (?) struggle

When you shit on one of us, you shit on all of us

If i were out to deceive anyone, i would not sign off as ~Odin~

I have been straight forward and...HONEST since i arrived here in October of 2011.

I have not been dishonest in anything that I have ever said here, perhaps satirical at times, maybe wrong, but NEVER dishonest

And i have been consistent in my beliefs, although I have grown in the 17 months that I have been here, as i think we all have

And that has been true, no matter what pseudonym i needed to convey those beliefs, when YES i thought I was unfairly banned

Unlike you though, I am here to mend, ...or at least put our differences aside, as much as we possibly can.... for the Greater Good of the movement...

I am not here on this forum to foment animosity with the differences.. that i have had with posters here who dearly want to see OUR struggle progress and succeed, as I do

Hence i am definitely NOT here to create more and deeper CHASMS between us

And that is the reason why one poster here who, who clearly knew this about me, and disagreed with me on contentious issues, stuck his neck out to get me back on here, and why i regard others who disagree with me as friends in a common struggle

This forum although not perfect is better than it has been since the early days

And for anyone who has been here for a while, your deceitful, divisive ways are now far more easy for us to see now

~Odin~

[-] -2 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

More logical fallacies? More ad hominem? More appeal to motive? Do you ever stop trolling this website? Do you ever had anything constructive to the debate? Your trolling is what is divisive. I'm proposing an idea that is inclusive, i.e. a community run forum.

I have been straight forward and...HONEST since i arrived here in October of 2011.

Is that why you have been banned time and time again? Perhaps you should reread your rants. You use logical fallacies to insult people on this site. That's all you do. You never contribute to the discussions. That's why the moderators ban you constantly. Occupiers don't like you. Don't you understand that by now. They ban you, that's what they do. They see your name on the forum, then an anarchist moderator comes in and thinks - "Not ranting Odin again." Then that moderator bans you. Then you come back still thinking they love you, and then they ban you again.

And i have been consistent in my beliefs, although I have grown in the 17 months that I have been here, as i think we all have

The real Odin used to support the idea of a Bridge to the Ground. He used to post about it all the time. I can dig up the posts if you like. But, you're right, you are consistent with your views. The fact is you are not Odin, but DKAtoday posing as him. Jart has confirmed this.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

My problem with you is not The Bridge To The Ground, which I have always said was a good idea

But it is the way that you mud-sling and try to cause divisions on here

And now it is also the way that you fucking lie about my identity

~Odin~

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Replying here..Yes, I have always supported a "bridge to the ground"

The problem is the contractor, and the dirt he spreads

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

Logical fallacy: attacking the proposer, instead of arguing for or against the idea.

I'm not the architect, not the contractor. This Bridge to the Ground must be a community effort. It must be planned by the community, and built by the community. This is of utmost importance. We must work in a united way, instead of fostering divisiveness like you are doing now with your slurry of logical fallacies and personal attacks.

[-] -1 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

Lived in the Alaskan bush for a number years, over 200 miles from the nearest road (Fairbanks). No running water, wood heater and stove; had (expensive) power, but no television, washing machine, clothes dryer, or dishwasher. This was before personal computers and my most prized appliances were a KitchenAid mixer and shortwave radio.

Have some very good memories, but it's not for everyone. I miss fresh mooseburgers and salmon patties, you can keep the pizza.

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I cook up a storm, and dehydrate it into meal sizes. Tastes the same when rehydrated. One conscession to consumerism has been backpacking equipment. I buy quality, so it will last a long time.

On the must-have side of consumerism, the megacorps basically make older equipment redundant, or stop supporting their products, so you are forced to upgrade. Apple just did this with their new iphone. Changed the connection, making the old cables/docks obsolete. In any other industry, you must supply parts and service for your products for the life of the product. Why not with electronics? The printer industry is another farcical situation, where it is cheaper to buy a new machine, than to re-ink the old one. Cartridges are "wired" to know when they are running low, so even when you refill them, they are reading as empty. This kind of buyer manipulation is criminal, both to the consumer, and to the environment where all of this plastic and cabling ends up.

There was a push to have all phone charge cables genericised. Apple said that it would fight this move in court, because they'd spent X dollars ensuring nobody could copy their connections. So we are back to square one, and massive amounts of plastic and copper going to landfill. It's criminal.

Oh, and if you bought the components which make any cell phone, they would cost less than fifty bucks. Imagine the markup the corporats make, and you can understand why it's very much in their interests to make their products redundant every year or so.

[-] -1 points by BlueMonday (-154) 1 year ago

adbusters,.............started by the same people that started ows.

[-] 8 points by shadz66 (18009) 1 year ago

Ssshhh 'Tr@shy', your schizophrenia and mala fides are getting the better of you - as evidenced by :

So, 'TrashyTrollBucket' - was it any accidental coincidence that the site went under a DDOS attack for 10 hours when you did the last comments before it went down ?

You're an arrogant, manipulative, self-absorbed, narcissist who's beef here is petty, personal as well as political and you are very possibly in active league with elements close to http://donorstrust.org/ imho !

I don't like you or trust you. Your obvious raw intelligence may have it's attractions for some here but personally, I'd like to slap you or have you slapped - in Bali, Rennes, Montreal, NYC or near the 'Detroit Cookie Factory' & you should really know by now, just what happens when you reply to my comments.

anguis in herba - nosce te ipsum ...

[-] -3 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

BlueMonday is not me, and I had nothing to do with a DDOS attack. You can verify this with jart. There's no need to attack users based on guesses. That does not help the community. Just check your facts first. Spreading lies does not help Occupy, or anybody else.

I just commenting on jart's thread about the attack so that she can clear things up with you. I know you love conspiracy theories, but they are harmful. We need to promote fact checking and the scientific method.

She can also confirm that BlueMonday is not me. You should stop attacking new users. It's not good for Occupy.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18009) 1 year ago

"Spreading lies does not help Occupy, or anybody else." - Hmmm ... we may have that rarest of rare things 'entre nous' - a moment of agreement, tho' alas, your perfidy precludes any belief or solidarity.

IF (& I'm very far from convinced as I type this!!) - you TrashyoldJohn and 'Blue Monday' are not one and the same - then I'll apologise in public and on the forum - just like I did once before to 'ogohj20' from Raleigh, NC. However, 'til then the jury is out & the clock continues ticking on you & in the meantime :

"You could say it's a matter of life and death" (Donald Rumsfeld) Dare you to watch it ;-)

cave - bellum se ipsum alet ...

[+] -4 points by BlueMonday (-154) 1 year ago

i have no idea who or what jart is or what a DDOS is. as for your other assertions,..........thats just what they are . no basis in fact.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (18009) 1 year ago

'Tr@shy Blue Monday' - Craving A New Order ?! Whatever dude, catch a couple of tunes & a lecture :

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (5689) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Well, technically, Adbusters started this website. They've been around since 1989.

[-] 5 points by GirlFriday (21783) 1 year ago

Absolute shameless bumping is occurring at this moment.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

From the link; (quote)The Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry estimated losses from the strike at more than $3.7bn.

"The national economy ... can ill afford this situation. In fact, the strike would aggravate the price situation because of disruption in supply line of essential commodities," the chamber said in a statement. (unquote)

And therein lies the power of the people. What arises from the ashes is also up to the populace, lending the lie to the term TPTB the powers that be.

[-] 7 points by shadz66 (18009) 1 year ago

"'We’re Losing Our Civic Courage.' - Julian Assange", by John Keane :

“When people speak up and stand together it frightens corrupt and undemocratic power” &

“True democracy is the resistance of people armed with truth against lies.” (JA) Solidarity !

multum in parvo ...

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I really enjoyed reading that link. What a courageous man Julian Assange is.

"When people speak up and stand together, it frightens corrupt undemocratic power." Julian Assange

"Courage is the primary virtue because it makes all other virtues possible." Aristotle

Thanks shadz

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (18009) 1 year ago

"On February 23, Bradley Manning’s 1,000th day in jail without trial - International Protests" :

In the circumstances, thanx 'O' for excerpting the highly relevant quote from Aristotle :

  • "Courage is the primary virtue because it makes all other virtues possible."

Solidarity @ Bradley Manning & Julian Assange.

consilio et animis ...

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Thanks...I think Assange is right, women do have more courage than men.

~*Odin

[-] -1 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

It's important to create a communal run website for Occupy. We can then ensure that there are enough moderators and programmers, and that the writers are transparent are participate in the discussions following their articles. We can also ensure that there is a real connection to the ground. How nice it would be to discuss issues with people from affinity groups. They could ask those who are limited to the Internet because of distance or sickness to help by making posters, or other electronically created items.

We must build a bridge to the ground. It must be transparent. It must be communal.

[-] 4 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

How is it that 100 million workers in India understand they're getting screwed, but the 75 million in the U.S making $13 an hour less don't? If those 75 million U.S. workers called a strike today the country would shut down tomorrow and people would be forced to take a hard look at the issue of wealth inequality.

Good post Trevor.

[-] 4 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Good post Trev. I had no idea that this was going on in India. More and more this is turning into a world-wide revolution.

I visited India for three weeks back in 1993 while my daughter was there for almost a year with the Rotary Club, and i would love to go back some day soon. Aside from the Taj Mahal, the thing I remember the most is the vitality of its people. I remember also staying at the colonial era Taj Hotel in Bombay, now Mumbai. That was the hotel that was hit by the terrorist attack several years ago

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

All those networks claiming to have world news were busy talking about celebrities.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

It's absolutely disgusting what is considered news today. Edward R. Murrow would be turning over in his grave if he knew.

Not having an independent news media is one of the biggest obstacles that we have to overcome

Thank God we have social media, otherwise we would be really screwed

~Odin~

[+] -4 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

Social media breeds a lot of disinformation and usually focuses on conspiracy theories instead of proper journalism. The solution for proper news is not social media, the solution is to create a new outlet for the people run by profession and serious journalists who aren't there for the money and the greed. It would be great to start a newspaper or magazine by Occupy, sort of like Adbuster's did in Canada. It could be run with anarcho-syndicalism.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Occupy does have at least two papers I know of, One Tidal, and the other MetrOccupied

Unfortunately the former is not geared to reaching out to the middle in the best way

And the latter does not have a wide enough circulation

We need a La Marea-style magazine. They have a great way of reaching out

There are great web sites too like Truthout, Rolling Stone, and Truthdig to name just a few

http://www.nationofchange.org/spain-s-rebellion-moves-print-1359212971

~Odin~

[-] -1 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

Both those papers should be available freely on the Internet. Problem solved.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

If YOU donated your time, and resources to those publications, or anything positive rather than constant bitching as to what you believe is screwed up about this movememnt, that problem, and more might be solved.

Edited 10 mins later; Tidal does have a web site

~Odin~

[-] -2 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

I give nearly all my time to Occupy. Giving constructive criticism, strong ideas, and proper solutions on this site is about 20% of what I do for this movement. I work on software solutions with the tech team and also actively participate in Occupy events in my city.

For some unknown reason you created a delusion in your mind about who I am. Delusions usually stem from fear. What are you afraid of? The secret and cartoon-like evil nature of the agenda you fantasize I operate by?

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

It's no "delusion." Your past constant divisive comments comments speak for themselves

I consider myself a good judge of character, and hence I know BS when I see it time and time again

And BTW, your misuse of terms like "fantasies," and "fear" in describing who and what I am are reminiscent of the 'catch phrases/talking points' needed to further the nefarious agenda that was propagated against us, and hence why 'most' of us are here

The latter term for me has been reserved for times in my life when my physical well being was on the line...or perhaps getting on the wrong side of GirlFriday...lol...,which is unlikely

And as for the former, well i can assure you, that i have no "fantasies" about you.....or your motives!

~Odin~

[-] -2 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

It's no "delusion." Your past constant divisive comments comments speak for themselves

Can you provide some clear examples of comments you think are divisive and explain why you think this?

And BTW, your misuse of terms like "fantasies," and "fear" in describing who and what I am are reminiscent of the 'catch phrases/talking points' needed to further the nefarious agenda that was propated against us, and hence why 'most' of us are here

More appeal to motive! You never stop!

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Yes, i am relentless. i guess it's that hard-headed Scandinavian heritage

While i will admit that HH-ness has not always worked out well for me, I consider it an asset in the struggle that we (?) are in...lol

Your somewhat sophisticated modus operandi, that can be put into simple terms of 'we good...they bad' is designed to promote division

Taking my rather benign in-house constructive criticism, and trying to blow it up into a major negative, which it was never meant to be, was a big eye opener for me

And the constancy of your criticisms is another big indicator to me of your intentions

The cumalitive effect of that is divisiveness....divisiveness... divisiveness, and

YOU are promoting the same tactic on here that was used to get us all in the precarious point in history that we are now in....namely DIVISIVENESS.

~Odin~

[+] -5 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

You're rant obsessed. It's one logical fallacy after another with you. You accuse me of being divisive because I prone a community driven website? That's the opposite of being divisive. You call into question my modus operandi, that's a logical fallacy: appeal to motive. Do you have any arguments of worth? It seems to me you're being divisive, trolling away on this forum attacking any good idea that might affect change. You want things to stay as they are, forever. Progress makes you afraid, very afraid.

The people who run this website are autocratic and not open to a community, but they did one good thing, and that's ban you repeatedly. You're a fake user .Pretending to be Odin. You're DKAtoday. I checked with jart and she verified you both used the same IP. I had a feeling you were a fake Odin when you started espousing views opposite to him. The real Odin supported the great idea of a Bridge to the Ground. Jart supports the idea, as does zoe. This might surprise you, but it was their intention from the very beginning that this site would be linked to the ground. Nice try DKAtoday. You fooled a lot of people with your multi-username attacks, but you didn't fool me. First you attack Odin's beautiful family, his daughter! And, now you attack the character itself? Wow, just wow!

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

WOW...just WOW! lol Your desparation in trying to convince people that I am not the same, original Odin that first arrived here in 10/2011 is amusing, sad, and at the same time kinda satisfying as it exposes you

If I wanted everything to stay the same I would not be in this radical movement that wants a sea change in the way our political and financial instutions are run

And I would not have spent a fair amount of money in my 45 plus trips to NYC for Occupy events over the last 17-18 months

And I would not have risked arrest on numerous occasions to progress this movement

And i would not have spent 3 days in NY for S17, working hard on two of those days setting up, manning, and taking down the OTS table and stuff

I met the poster alterorabolish, and his sons there while working the OTS table on S15 and S16. He knows how handsome I am...lol

That last paragraph in your comment.... with the big LIE being that DK and I have the same IP is bullshit, and it proves your lack of character, and once again, your now what can be described as a TWISTED divisiveness

~DK~....oops....~Odin~....lol...lol~

[-] 0 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

You are not Odin for these reasons:

  1. The original Odin supported the idea of a Bridge the to Ground.
  2. The original Odin was smart and used arguments to debate. He was not limited to logical fallacies.
  3. The original Odin did not troll others, or start endless repetitious rants.
  4. The original Odin used a different type of phrasing and wording, the one used by frovikleka resembles that of DKAtoday.
  5. Jart has confirmed that the original Odin was banned for dissent. You suck up to the moderators as if they were the guru of your cult.

The original Odin, also known as Forrester supported the idea of a Bridge to the Ground. He was in fact the idea's biggest supporter. Here he is as Forrester after being banned by the moderators for his dissent.

"This is an excellent initiative, and I will gladly be the first to sign onto this. There are however people who are unable to protest for whatever reason, ie. distance from an active protest, for physical reasons, etc. They should be able to participate in this call for unity between the 'streets' and here by agreeing to donate money or resources equivalent to $20 directly to the more full-time protesters who sacrifice so much.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-be-ows-for-one-day-pledge/#comment-829882

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

You are going to great pains to discredit me I see, that's OK

This is the kind of busy work that keeps you busy, and 'out of the hair' of the rest of the people on this forum

It will end up being your demise though when people realize who is being truthful and who isn't

One more time for the record, "Bridge To The Ground" = GOOD, very good idea

The person constantly criticizing people in Occupy, that is proposing that idea = Not Good

~Odin~

[+] -5 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

It's important to create a communal run website for Occupy. We can then ensure that there are enough moderators and programmers, and that the writers are transparent are participate in the discussions following their articles. We can also ensure that there is a real connection to the ground. How nice it would be to discuss issues with people from affinity groups. They could ask those who are limited to the Internet because of distance or sickness to help by making posters, or other electronically created items.

We must build a bridge to the ground. It must be transparent. It must be communal.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

The main problem with this web site is all the trolls and the multiple pseudoyms

As I have always said though, it has been a wonderful place to learn, and share ideas on

The overwhelming majority of people close to the heart of this movement either don't or rarely come on this forum

Either they don't have the time, or they are aware of how forums can degenerate

I do suspect the Consensus series brought some of them on as the people that had the most knowledge, and concern had the fewest points

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Yes, the points seem to be the only thing some users care about.

It's clearly time to establish another board, where users with multiple handles can easily be sorted back to one, and some form of voting can be entrenched in posts.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Anyone that had IT expertise could get around the multiple pseudonym thing, couldn' they?

And what do you mean by "voting can be entrenched in posts?"

You can even get by an IP ban, I know. ;-)

Good Night

~Odin~

[-] -1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Only the lonely go to those lengths to talk to themselves, Odin.

I would like to see the ability to post a multiple choice questionaire as a header. It's nothing new. Any common PHB bulletin board can swing it.

It saves a lot of time with the arguments, and it's in line with the consensus theme.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I believe there are more than one of those "lonely[s]" on here, and some just have them for voting

The points don't bother me, but the way that they could distort, people's, especially new people's perceptions does

I guess that's the whole point of it

~Odin~

[-] -3 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

Anyone that had IT expertise could get around the multiple pseudonym thing, couldn' they?

Not really. People can always use proxy servers to escape IP detection. The best way to get rid of multiple pseudonyms is to have good moderation. A good moderator who has time can easily recognize a common user and zap him if he has been previously banned. If everyone devoted a few hours a week to moderation the forum would be much better, unfortunately, because it's not a community effort we have to rely on the appointed moderators and we have no idea how many there are or who they are. At this point they don't even care anymore. The site has been abandoned. Jart hasn't made a code update in 5 months.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

We are still here learning and sharing ideas, so this site serves a very useful purpose, despite all the crap that goes on here

~Odin~

[-] -2 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

It does serve a purpose, but it could be so much more. Let's not rejoice that this site is a mere campfire when it could be that state of the art oven your momma always fantasized about.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Have you ever tasted coffee perked over an apple wood campfire?

You sacrifice some convenience for a great tasting cup of joe

Gotta go out

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I moderated a popular American BB a few years back, and it takes several regulars from around the globe to keep the splashers and trashers at bay. I'm not volunteering, BTW.

[-] -2 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

It's hard, but possible. The biggest problem on this site is that the moderators don't actually participate. No one knows who they are. I don't even think they're around anymore.

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

The purpose of the site has been pirated.

The originals still post updates and bulletins.

They clearly have more important things to do, as opposed to slapping inclusionman for voting for himself with fifteen other IDs.

Like you say, it's easy to pick up on syntax and spelling to ID repeat offenders. It's not rocket science.

[-] -2 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

The main problem with this web site is all the trolls and the multiple pseudoyms

This could be curbed with more moderators, and also programmers that update the security of the site which isn't that great. If a community were to run the site this would be possible, unfortunately, it's only a few people who run it and they don't have time to spend on the site, neither do they want others to help.

The overwhelming majority of people close to the heart of this movement either don't or rarely come on this forum

Of course not, because the forum is not directly linked to what Occupy is actually doing on the ground. Were this forum (or another one) linked to the affinity groups then people could use it has a hub to plan stuff, recruit people who want to help but can't go in person to the affinity groups, etc... The forum isn't used by people who want to help Occupy because there is currently no way for the discussions we have here to affect what happens in practice. This could be changed.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Clever people coud easily have multiple personnas to match their mutiple pseudonyms, as i am sure you know

Hence a person could hi-jack this forum easier than he could now

Your idea of having a communal-type forum is based on the premise that everyone here is acting in good faith and wants to see this movement succeed, and you should know that is not true

It's much more difficult to deceive someone when you are looking at him/her in the eye, or have broken bread with them, or shared blood sweat, or tears with them

~Odin~

[-] -2 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

There's no question live meetings are ideal, but we don't live in the times of kings and queens any longer. The Internet is here old man. If we want exponential growth we will need the Internet.

Your notion that a communal forum would be easier to hijack than this one is deeply flawed. This forum can easily be hijacked because there are too few moderators and they are not doing their job. With a communal forum we could get more moderators if need be. Iv'e been on many forums, and when moderation is tight the use of sock puppets is kept to a minimum. We could also improve the signup process by having more programmers involved on the site. Right now jart is in charge, she accepts no new programmers, and hasn't added a line of code in 5 months. So much could be added to this software to render it more secure. By blocking based on IP, and blocking all access by proxy servers all forms of "hacking" would basically be stopped. The problem is this site does not block proxy servers.

We could make the signup process long and arduous. Once a person signs in, he could be limited to one post a day for the first 2 weeks. Then he would be free to post as much as he likes. That means when a user is banned he needs to wait two weeks again before posting. That cuts down on sock puppets. Believe me, I used that on one of my forums before. Couple that with active moderators who know the users on the site, and it takes them just a few posts to recognize an old banned user coming back with a new alias. Just look at shadz66, he always knows when I'm back, but he doesn't have the power to ban because the moderators are not active and don't allow new ones to become active.

And, really, so what if there are multiple usernames. The only thing that matters are ideas, not the proposer. Don't let a logical fallacy get in the way of exponential growth through the Internet!

Another thing. A lot of people hijack the forum because they are bored. And that's because whatever is discussed here is just crap in the wind. If the discussions on this forum had a way to truly impact what is going on in affinity groups, etc... If the Internet participants had a practical way to impact Occupy, then I believe this site would be much more serious.

It's annoying when you come here thinking you come to the Occupy hub on the web and realize you can make no difference at all because the people behind the site, those writing news articles for example, don't care at all what you have to say.

We can remain a small face-to-face group, or we can grow exponentially by using the Internet wisely as a true hub. The arguments you have brought up are flawed and stem from ignorance. A well run community forum has more moderators, more programmers, hence it can easily be more secure.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

The internet is being utilized in our struggle to a very large degree

But the fact remains that many of the people that we are trying to reach out to are not here, or if they are, then probably they are doing other things

The couple of people that I have met briefly who run this web site are stressed as this is not the only thing going on in their lives

Your constant divisive criticism does not help, but I guess that's your raison d' etre

You should start your own affinity group. You could call it OccupyBitching or OccupyDivide

~Odin~

[-] -1 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

But the fact remains that many of the people that we are trying to reach out 'there' are not here, or if they are, then probably they are doing other things on here

They are not here because this website does not cater to them. People who care about Occupy want to be able to affect change. There is no way for the people on this site to get involved with activities on the ground. It's strange that you ignore this, even jart lamented this fact a few months ago. This is the reason all you see on this website is "crap" like you called it earlier. This site cater's to that type of useless, spit in the wind type discussion because that's all that discussions here can hope to achieve.

Your constant divisive criticism does not help, but I guess that's your raison d' etre

Appeal to motive. Logical fallacy. Do you ever use proper arguments?

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Many people who come to this web site do not actively partcipate on it

They do read your divisive comments though which once again is your raison d' etre, isn't it?

If you feel that this forum is not up to your high (?) standards.... do something else

~Odin~

[-] -3 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

I'm not sure why you think the idea of a community run website which would help bridge the gap between Internet users and people on the ground is divisive. The purpose is the opposite.

If you feel that this forum is not up to your high (?) standards.... do something else

I am doing something about it. I'm sharing the great idea of a community created and run website.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Once gain, concentrate on the issues, build trust with the posters who believe like me that you don't give a shit about the success of our (?) struggle

And come back in a year or so with your plan

~Odin~

[-] -2 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

I am concentrating on the issue of building a community run website. It's a major issue for Occupy. You're the one trolling me. If you don't like my idea, move on. That's fine. Why are you being so divisive? You add nothing to the discussion but logical fallacies and lame insults.

If Occupy is to create a new world where each and every citizen can get involved in the decisional process, then the Internet must be used. There is no other way.

(Are you really Odin, or DKAtoday posing as him? Odin supported the idea of a Bridge to the Ground and posted about this idea on numerous occasions. You don't have his intelligence, and you have opposite ideas than he had. You sound much more like DKAtoday than Odin. I know Odin was banned on many occasions for his bad behavior towards this forum and Occupy, so I assume you are DKAtoday.)

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

You have an uncanny way of mixing up possible good ideas with divisive,... hurtful for the struggle crap

YOUR PURPOSE?: Create divisions within Occupy

Questioning whether i am the original Odin on the forum....hmmm more divisiveness. Getting desparate, eh?

I assure you that I am the same Odin that came here in late October, 2011 after returning from AK

The problem that you have is that your sordid history precedes your possibly good idea

And your toxic rhetoric, followed by beautiful words does not erase that

Trolling you? Hardly... Your responses beget responses. If you choose not to respond, see you later.That's all

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

Many intelligent occupiers support my idea of a Bridge to the Ground.

Here's a user named Forrester who not only agree with the concept, but is asking Internet users who can't contribute hard work to give money instead. Talk about bridging the gap! Everyone contributes in a way, some by their hard work on the ground, some by their hard work on their computers, and those who don't have time contribute with money. Forrester understands. He's one of the good occupiers who does.

"This is an excellent initiative, and I will gladly be the first to sign onto this. There are however people who are unable to protest for whatever reason, ie. distance from an active protest, for physical reasons, etc. They should be able to participate in this call for unity between the 'streets' and here by agreeing to donate money or resources equivalent to $20 directly to the more full-time protesters who sacrifice so much.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-be-ows-for-one-day-pledge/#comment-829882

[-] -3 points by oldJohn (-646) 1 year ago

Still trolling?

Do you have any arguments or worth to share about the idea of a community based forum/website. I think everyone is tired of your repetitious slandering rants. No? Time for ideas? No?

If you don't start contributing to the forum in a positive way (arguments of worth, not repetitious rants), then you'll have to be banned yet again.

Take a rest from the forum. Sign the one day pledge, it will do you good: http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-be-ows-for-one-day-pledge/

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

And yes, since i have had many 14 plus hour days.....from the time I leave home until the time I get back.... in the city taking part in protests

I am sure there will be more, so yes i do pledge to sign off my LT for 14 hours, more than once, and take part in a direct action protest

That's an easy one for me......YOU?

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Not trolling, just responding

~Odin~

[-] 3 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

From the same site; people power.

Europe Bulgaria's government resigns amid protests Bulgarian prime minister has told parliament the government has resigned in the face of mass protests.

At least 25 people were taken to hospital after protesters clashed with police late on Tuesday.

"I will not participate in a government under which police are beating people," Borisov said as he announced his resignation on Wednesday.

[-] -1 points by Mariemoore (1) 1 year ago

Corruption ( which is consequence of bad governance and policies) and socialism are the main reasons for these rising prices, low pay and poor working condition.

Indians are now furious and protesting in streets.

[-] -1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

it's actually more due to a corporate takeover... but close.

it's sad that we have to depend on government to create laws so corporations and businesses don't abuse and exploit human beings. But we do so the corporations and businesses then do everything they can to manipulate government.

India's government is now so corrupt, the workers have nothing left to resort to except mass protest. I hope they can achieve their goals without resorting to violence. But exploitation and abuse can bring people to extraordinary measures.

[+] -5 points by Einsatzgruppen1 (-56) 1 year ago

Ummmm..... Great?