Forum Post: You have now lost my support.
Posted 12 years ago on Sept. 28, 2011, 3:02 p.m. EST by AngryJoe
(67)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I simply tried to explain the image problem you're having in the chat room. and @Buddah decided to ban me for telling people what I have been hearing as I travel. Considering that my job has me traveling all over and meeting with groups of people from all backgrounds, I hear a lot about what's going on in the nation and moist of what I'm hearing about this protest isn't exactly what I would refer to as positive. The three reoccurring issues people seem to have are:
- There is no real perceived objective or goal
- This is being viewed as a protest in support of socialist or communist ideals instead of freedom. (people don't like that very much)
- You're just a bunch a kids that are upset because after college nothing is being handed to you anymore.
You have a image problem, a MAJOR image problem, and some of you have a attitude problem to go along with that image problem. Both are a MAJOR turn off when trying to gain the support of the general public. You can not be successful without the support of the general public and you can not gather their support when when you present yourselves to them as a bunch of cry baby, over radicalized nuts, with no real mission, objective or anything better to do. Now, that's not the case for all of you, but for some it apparently is the case and those few are what's crippling your support.
It's all about how you present yourself, how you present yourself is how you will be perceived. Like it or not, it's the truth, because we all know that if you present yourself as a nut, the media and in turn the public will see you as a nut. So until you shed your baggage you won't make any progress.
As for @Buddah it's beyond me how you can state that everyone should have an equal voice then turn around and ban someone who trying to help. Shooting the messenger for the content of the message, that's just childish and counterproductive. Actions like yours will kill support faster than anything else. Placing you in charge of anything was a mistake and shows a lack of judgment on the part of whoever approved it. Due to your actions you have lost my support because son, nobody likes a hypocrite. When the subject of this protest comes up, and it often has lately, I will let people know that you do support free speech, BUT just as long as you agree with the speech in question and that you have also actively moved to censor speech that you disagree with even though it was intended to help.
Good luck, you're sure as hell going to need all the luck you can get.
Buddha is an asshole. He booted me too.
But don't be that disheartened by one asshole who booted you from a chatroom. There's plenty of other ways to get involved. Check out the Livestream. Go to an actual occupation site.
And to be honest, the chat room is a waste of time.
Someone put him in charge of it and it shows a total lack of judgment. I'm not getting involved with people who lack judgment.
If you think the movement needs better judgment, provide it. Find your own way to get involved and get this thing moving in the right direction.
you know, i try, but its looking futile. nobodies really listening. In short due to lack of organization whats going on is my time and energy are being wasted. Due to lack of clarity and sanity control freaks have been given admin powers instead of people who could answer as adults. I try to go talk with them about it and they talk in circles and refuse to take or accept any kind of responsibility. Its a crying shame. I'm going to have to cut my own losses and quit pretty soon myself. Its too bad the "movement" couldn't have its act together.
a group such as this is judged not only by it's stated aims but also by those it allows to be it's public face... if you have reasonable discussion and allow otheres to have input you are judged as such you have petty tyrants and screaming demagogs and amazingly the public will view all associated the same way.... voices of reason disapear behind the glare of thos emost prominant for good or ill
yep. the unfortunate truth is that the face of the IRC chat is clown circus azzholes running an ego trip.
What Anastasious said.
Working with people like that, what's the incentive?
A republic you can hand down to your children.
and how is involvement with this movement going to accomplish that? So far all it can do is waste my time, and prove repeatedly its infantile and mentally bound in assorted cages. Assorted VERY good advice has gone unheeded. Not even responded to. ANY time and energy i give to this movement is apparently a waste of time. I'm all for social evolution and getting rid of the corruption. too bad this situation is NOT helpful to solving any such problems.
Gawd, no one listens to you because you are an egomaniac. Cut the shit and start working with other people.
no, i am not an ego maniac and in fact quite the opposite. I'm an aspie. I don't have ego like you people do. I do on the other hand have mountains of knowledge. Catch 22. People don't listen because they can't handle the truth, and people like you make that about ME instead of facing the grim reality that your ignorant and running away from work.
I've read your article. You loved Obama. You think the world is ending in eight years. You claim to be a genius. Honestly, I'm not impressed.
If you have some knowledge, present it without all the baggage and I'll read it.
no, i did not love obama. I spent the entire season trying to get obama- ites to wake up. It seems the point is lost on you that bit was originally posted inside of the obama campaign. It HAD to be slanted and yet hit the core points. In fact nobody was a larger thorn in obamas side than me and its exactly BECAUSE i was able to step into their trip WITH them that i was able to have an effect. If you want proof i am a genius ask me a hard question only somebody with multiple advanced degrees could answer. There are all sorts of questions to ask. In fact just thought experiment it out and imagine i'm really gawd. Your wasting my time otherwise. Ask me the questions you were saving for your big meeting with the Big yahoo. Quit wasting my time.
Dude, get off the forum. You're not helping.
lol. helping? what exactly does help look like ? how is this clown circus going to ever get its act together without people like me.
dude. I'm not interested in your pathetic judgments
I don't feel that people like that are trustworthy enough to work with, seems to me that they would get you to your share then gang up and shut you out rather than take you opinion into equal account. Not worth it with them, too much downside potential.
Like I said before, I was banned too, by the same moderator! Just because an Buddha__ clicked a button to ban you doesn't mean he represents the movement as a whole, or even in part. He's just a dick.
but if the movement was effective and true to what it claims he would have been removed. Again a lack of judgment.
How can a leaderless movement have control over the actions of one member. Buddha is a dick. Get over it.
i agree, the IRC is just a chat room on freenode and this site is not official. who knows, a welcome leader might be emerging as we speak.
apparently you are not the only person to complain about abuses of power from that person. It seems that there is a real issue there and that he abuses his power frequently.
I'm no damned communist. I'm a pissed off American period. Capitalism is not the problem, Wall Street Corruption of finance and politics is the problem. All this other ism shit is a waste of time....
AlxHamiltn
The real problem is the corruption in the corporate, lobbyist, PAC and Congressional relationship.
Try to circumvent the Constitution with that Marxist crap and I will honor my oath to defend this nation from it's foreign and domestic enemies.
A Nationwide, Not-for-profit Health Service, including insurers, suppliers, providers and caregivers would have as much vested interest in and recourse capability of investing in research as does private sector. Its goals would be the same: better outcomes, more efficiency, safer facilities, higher consumer satisfaction, better prevention, lover cost of care, etc...
Likelyhood is that Wall Street Healthcare NEVER supported OccupyWallStreet goals and objectives....least of all.
Universal availability of health care for the American people at REASONABLE cost and return on investment.
L. Napoleon Cooper USASinglePayerOption.com Washington, D.C.
OCCUPY HEALTH CARE NOW
that said, I agree chat room is waste of time. Censorship and power trips by information gate keepers is shameful exercise of RAW corrupted POWER.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29#Concern_troll
if your contribution was sitting in a chat channel and crying freedom like a good american nobody will shed a tear about you leaving, you were not being serious in the first place when you decided to make your solidarity with the movement depend on fairplay in some chat channel and your contribution was your great personality if not any knowledge or perspective.
whoever think marxists should piss off let me tell you this: you claim there is a lack of perspective. anyone who could change that is a marxist because people become marxists for a reason, they study marx's work and that is the science of capitalism, written down after 30 years of studying the english library, the system you are living in. go read it yourself if you dont believe me, learn what money is, what a commodity is, what surplusvalue is.. you dont know nothing of this system at this point.
but you wouldnt do that of course because deep down in your heart you know (and never wonder who told you so) that the only thing that matters is freedom and marxists are evil because they hate freedom. freedom to work for minimal wage and freedom of speech aslong as not actions. that is your chains of the slave, the chains that chain you to capitalism and its state, the pledge for freedom of property, the freedom to exploit the working class, the one freedom that a socialist country never knew. and dont get me wrong i have a criticism of socialism but its not boiling down to "unfree".
if there is issues with buddha (whose name indicates he has a lot of issues himself) you can take it to where it belongs: the admins of that chat channel. if they are not to hear you then desert the channel and call for it. but going on like a spoiled child and not support the movement because of that fly's shit issue is ridiculous and you should stuff your morality and grow a backbone.
angryjoe was saying we shouldn't associate OWS with communism, because that alienates a large percentage of americans. you don't need to know anything about marxism to know that it will offend 90% of people in the states - not necessarily because they know anything about marxism, but because they're indoctrinated to think it's bad. i'm sure it's different in france (assuming that's where you are).
to me, this movement is across the whole political spectrum - the issues that 99% of us have with the richest 1%.
no its not, of course, france was never communist, quite on the contrary - those 90% hold true for every "free country", including france. however - if this movement had any sympathy for class struggle of the working class (which it has not), would you find it a viable strategy to smuggle it into the brains of americans under another name? how long do you think someone needs to find out the ice cream your serving him and he loves is actually the spinach he hated yesterday? there is still the issue of what is to be done to bring serious change open here.
well, i'm avoiding the argument - I just don't think this movement should be associated with republicans, liberals, marxists, or any political party. it is more about destroying the grip of the 1% on politics, so we have a chance to actually be liberal, republican, or whatever.
one big part of this movement, re-enacting the glass-steagall act, would have a direct effect on mortgage payers, who are often part of the working class.
Wow, someone from Berkeley that I agree with.
oh would it? how do you come to that judgement? what would be the direct effect?
it's pretty complicated, but i will give it my best. the way i see it, the banks got in trouble because they were gambling in the stock market and mortgages with our deposits (this gambling would have been prevented by the glass-steagall act). house prices have historically gone up, so it was considered a safe investment. then they started to dip a little and all hell broke loose because the banks were over-invested. mortgage rates went up due to the falling house prices (banks protecting themselves), people couldn't pay, the effect multiplied (housing bubble broke), and we had to bail out the banks. so people lost their investment in their houses, and had to pay to bail out the banks.
i probably didn't explain this perfectly - this wikipedia article can probably do it more detail: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932011
no their gamblings would have been outsourced to investment banks, not prohibited. glass-steagle is merely splitting apart the investment and savings attribute of financial capital into seperate entities, it doesnt prohibit any of their activities. i cant make out much of a direct effect in your post, more like a wish the stuff should not happen again. the only effect it would have is customers of the savings bank not losing their savings because financial investment is done in another bank which would get its bailout all the same to save the credit system in its entity. the matter is "too big to fail", not investment or savingsbank, really.
as i said, i'm not an expert on this, so I will cite the wikipedia article on glass-steagall. it sounds like it prohibits what you say, no matter how the money was moved around or the service outsourced. "Most economists believe [the glass-steagall] repeal directly contributed to the severity of the Financial crisis of 2007–2011 by allowing Wall Street investment banking firms to gamble with their depositors' money that was held in commercial banks owned or created by the investment firms.[4][5][6][7][8][9]"
at the very least, the bailout money was funded by taxpayers.
of course banks gamble with their depoistor's money, how else would they pay you the interest rate? the question is: why are the "too big to fail"-banks too big to fail? what happens when they fail? btw this is not only happening in the u.s., this is happening all over the world, governments bailing out banks in fear of a credit crunch.
they pay a remarkably low interest rate for one thing, and pay it primarily by charging interest for loans. yes, i give you that they gamble by giving out loans. i believe in the crisis, though, the banks were actively investing in supposed AAA securities, which were high-risk loans made by another companies. with glass-steagall, i don't think they could have made those investments, but would have had to make the loans themselves. who knows, the banks might have planned to fail, because they knew they would get bailed out.
if i recall, the great depression came because people were afraid of banks failing. they all made bank runs, and caused some banks to really fail, and it was a domino effect from there.
oh well thats a conspiracy theory. why would they want to fail to get bailed out to be in the original position again? just to fail again? sounds incongruent. people dont get afraid of banks failing for no reason, its banks doing huge losses because of the nature of their business and people realizing its their money thats been written off and trying to get it out before there is none left. there is this famous proverb about this behaviour: if panic, panic first.
a word on the aaa securities: that is nothing but an expectation of the banks themselves, hardened by externalizing their judgement of securites to private business to the point where they are the only serious instance of ratingk, this used to be a bank-internal service in the early stages of finance capital. there is no objective measure for the expected profitability of a security and you cant blame them for not knowing the future.
sorry i have to go now, i will be back though to continue this dicussion if you like to.
they shuffle money around, government pays them more money through bailouts. conspiracy theory is a loaded term and this is name calling. these people are after money, even if it means lying to congress. there is a means and a motive, and having an investment bank and commercial bank makes it even harder to track.
if i recall correctly, the investment bankers called it AAA when it was actually FFF or whatever, then sold it to the banks. if the banks had to rate the loans themselves, they really couldn't fool themselves.
i probably won't be discussing much more because i have to be at work, and someone else knows the arguments better.
i was not "crying freedom, " yes I was being serious, yes I was actually trying to be helpful and no I'm not going to sugar coat shit to protect someone's feelings. I would expect someone who is logical enough to point out the problems we all face to also be logical enough to acknowledge the problems that this protest faces. Lets get one thing out there, socialism and communism pose no threat, neither will not prevail here, most of us know that. So, now we have that out of the way and can go back to what I was originally talking about. Many people here are so radicalized that they can't see the forest for the trees. The general public DOES NOT LIKE THAT. That's a large part of the image problem you have with the general public and I would expect a mature individual to be able to recognize that, but I'm finding that most are so blindly radicalized that they fail to admit that anything they could be doing could possibly be turning someone else off.
Go read down, the reasons for withdrawing support are mainly a lack of direction and realistic expectations which is ultimately due to a lack of judgment. Even after making that decision I went back and tried to help but it was to no avail. This little incident didn't make my decision it just solidified it.
and so instead of trying to change it you turn away from it? still the same contradiction, you criticize a lack of perspective but are not willing to engage in bringing it around. instead you state the obvious and make it a plea for your person. i find it most enlightening the way you brush away my words about marxism and freedom by not adressing them and being "realistic". now when you blame a lack of judgement you make a defect of personality where you before stated a lack of knowledge, this is even more sad, you get psychological on the movement. they lack the ability to judge right and therefor cant develop a perspective.
Don't try to turn this on me. It's not my ideology that's running people off. I'm not the one advocating that the whole system be scrapped in favor of another and refusing to consider anything else or any compromise, and you wonder why radical marxist turn people off. Sorry but yes it is you. (The collective you, not you personally)
nah its only your ideology thats running yourself off, nothing more in the matter and thats the truth for everyone who argues with a "bad image", is merely speaking about his own views. you "turn this on them" in your words. you noticed that your ideas are not appreciated and agreed on and thus are presented with 3 choices: argue them more consistently, change your ideas or walk away from all the jazz with a heads up for your own self by blaming them for whatever reason, buddha being a great target there and i follow you where you argue it just solified your decision.
What I want is those who enabled (Washington DC) and caused (Wall St.) the economic crash and skyrocketing debt to be held accountable, investigated, fined and jailed if all possible. That includes bank and finance CEO's, Fannie and Freddie Mac CEO's, politicians like Barney Frank, John Boehner and many others. I also want PAC's and lobbying outright banned across the board and laws in place that forbid anyone other than individuals from giving money to politicians with a maximum cap of $2000 per term. (and a few other things like Glass-Stegall)
My previous experiences cause me to question your motives and what your ultimate goals really are, and if my views are compatible with those goals. (doubtful but slimly possible) Since you are apparently a radical socialist you either don't get it, or just flat refuse to understand or accept the fact that mainstream America is tuned off by Marx. (They are, whether you deny it or not you know deep down that I'm correct here.) They will not support Marxist ideals, and no you won’t be able to explain it to them and "show them the light." Outspoken radical Marxism that refuses to listen and give consideration to others views is really killing support for this cause, well, at least whatever the cause seems to be today. Without mainstream support you will never get anywhere, you will just continue to be seen as a bunch of nuts marching around, chanting and getting pepper sprayed by police. People aren't going to support tearing down the entire system to replace it with a political philosophy that has never been properly implemented, is prone to turning into dictatorships, and hasn’t exactly had what I and most others would call a stellar track record over the last century when it comes to personal freedoms, liberty and human rights.
Now on my end, I've been around radical socialist before, I have a sibling who is most likely dressed in red and out there with you right now. I also know that to the average socialist radical the means do justify the ends. You will willingly use and manipulate others who you don't agree with as long as it furthers your agenda. I am also not the only person that knows that. With no clear goal and the ever rising amount of Marxist around here I am not willing to work toward the unknown with them simply because I know if any victory were attained and we contributed a equal part, they would do everything possible to advance their agenda over all others while giving my views and everyone else's no consideration. We would simply be told that we're out voted, our views are wrong and that we're no longer needed or wanted. I know the game of the far left radicals and I'm not willing to be a pawn in that game. When I look at the risk vs. reward, I have far more to lose than I could ever possible gain by working with radicalized socialist.
Now, if this protest could be political ideology free and just concentrate on ONE DEFINED goal that everyone could agree on I'd be more inclined to lend 100% of my support, but as long as the loudest voice is supporting Marxism over all else, myself like the overwhelming vast majority of Americans are not interested.
Even Marx knew socialism and communism were bad and wouldn't work the second time around.. “History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce. “ - Karl Marx
yeah thats what i meant with good american. you just want someone jailed for your revenge and dont even really care about the rest (few other things like..). if you want to question my motives that means you dont want to engage with my point of view, thats why you look behind my words to find "motives". you are very free to make up anything you like there and im not interested in answering to your concerns about my morality, youvve taken your decision already. if people dont want to tear down the system then thats their own problem, you are very much making up the fact that the movement advocates socialism or anything radical, so far they are very much inclined towards your position of finding someone guilty and putting punishment forwarrds for "corruption". talk about advancing your agenda over all others and give nothing else a consideration... your post is just that. and just to clarify im like 10k miles away from this protest, im not representative for it at all, i just use this forum to get involved with protesters and basically anyone thats trying to get some clarity of whats going on in politics and economy, and thats the daily bread of this movement at this point since they havent come to a conclusion yet even though efforts are made towards it. and your famous quote which i find ridiculous in every aspect except for a nice final word, it really doesnt fit anythiing.. i could argue the socialism in place is the farce of capitalism, all its phenomena are present but not for what they were invented for - money, wage labour, commodities, profit and so on.
First off when talking about motives / morals, I'm not talking about you as a individual, I'm referring to you as the whole Marxist community / Marxist movement. My Again I'm more of a libertarian, which in short means do what you want, just leave me alone, therefore I respect your right to your views, but I will fight you in trying to force your views upon me.
Now what I and many others have observed is a large group of die hard Marxist within these protesters trying to get their views out above all others. Mainstream Americans all know that over the past hundred years that Marxist have a history using others as pawns to move their agenda forward while forcing their views upon others, even doing so at gunpoint. We also understand that to the Marxist socialism is not the ultimate goal, it's just a stepping stone to communism and knowing that mainstream Americans will tell these protesters to go to hell as long as the Marxist seem to have the loudest voice.
Lets get out of theoretical fantasy land for a moment and take a dip in in the ice cold pool of reality. Being that you're not an American you have little reference about the general feelings in American society. Now I can't understand why the radical socialist can't grasp that American's will not support Marxism, and without WIDE support from mainstream Americans this thing is doomed to fail. People don't want a government any bigger than it already is, matter a fact they want it smaller. We already have a government that consumes everything it can get it's hands on while it gives blow jobs to it's wall st buddies They see that the closer a country leans toward Marxism the bigger that government gets in proportion to it's population which would only compound the problems we already have with a wasteful government. They know that every attempted application of a Marxist state in the past has failed, and failed miserably and those still around have abysmal records on human rights and individual freedoms.
well im a libertarian too, but ive read marx and hes right about the stuff in capital, im a marxist in the sense that i support the revolution of the working class. when you talk about the sovjet union, what does this have to do with marxism? what about the leninism part? why does everybody blame marx for the sovjet union but not lenin even though its doctrine clearly says marxism-leninism? why does everyone think of the great leader of the people lenin and the evil old marx who brought him fancy ideas about making huge governments? get my point? you are very us-centered if you believe other countries that sided with capitalism in the cold war have any other views about marxism, its the same stuff everywhere. when they think of marxism they think of huge goverment oppressing the people. they could not be more wrong. ist true that marx was a statist, but his work was not, his description of capitalism in the capital is accurate and holds true for any anarchist, nobody is to dispute it. how about you start thinking of big and evil government in terms of capitalism, where is the marxist part? isnt it the biggest statist machine in the whole history of mankind, the machine of free market and democracy? the most powerfull, armed and dangerous to the little man? how can you just ignore the goverment you have and say something along the lines of "well if we had marxism, it would be much more big and evil".. im trying to force views onto you right now by arguments, no other way would ever work, you cant force anyone to take a view, merely say he does, that you can force him to do.
one other note: if you say "marxism" has failed, which the proper term would be socialism - against what did it fail? what is the measure of success in that thinking about systems? does being on the winner side give you any argument about having a good life? why do these people protest? certainly not for being winners against communism. would you call vietnam losers who failed too? its a really bad argument.
You're missing the overall point. I'm not here to debate Marxism. I don't have to attach a idea to a specific philosophy to think it's a good idea. The overall point is that this protest if filled with a bunch of hardcore Marxist, and when the general public sees that, they turn off their support because they don't trust Marxist for the reasons listed above. Also, the lack of direction with this protest isn't helping gain support either.
Oh yea to clarify how I was using Marx's quote of, “History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce. “ I was referring to the tragedy of all the murders Marxism/ socialism/ communism caused in the 20th century and as a farce because there are so many people that want to give it another go. (yes I know Marx comparing history with the theater)
the proof has been shown. repeatedly. I have been trying to help and change it for 3 days now. There is nothing there. no substance. no way to help. no channel for evolution. This movement for hating the corruption of the system has already reproduced all of those forms of corruption within its own organization, out of lack of lucidity for how to organize. Turn away from it? its a stupid infantile joke, which i keep trying to help because i sympathize with it- it keeps turning away from me and showing itself to be stupid and infantile. I have engaged in trying to bring it around. for three days. not any answer. not any actual work being done. Nothing. You are all wasting my time. marxism? you have the audcaity to bring a stupid 200 year old theoretical political system into this? Perfect example. I'm not talking to a lucid, i'm talking to a marxist. Great. er. Because people will judge me by the company i keep, please excuse me while i take 5 more steps BACKWARD.
wow, 3 days? ive been around the political scene for what now.. 15 years? did i piss my pants when people didnt listen? just shows your lack of confidence and insitency in anything but a top-bottom state decision. exposing your ignorance about marxism might work around here because everyone but a few is ignorant about marxism, but for me its just a joke because i know whats written in marx work and its about THIS system, not socialism. god of truth, eh.. my ass.
yeah, i have been doing the work that the protestors failed to do for 20 years. My confidence is fine. my reality tests are the issue. I'm sick and tired of pearls to swine and i have been throwing pearls to swine since before you were in the game. My ignorance about marxism? I studied political science at the phd level. I'm the one whos NOT ignorant, thats the point. Marxism is a stupid, dead, 200 year old ideology. Our solutions do not come from ideology. They come from systems theory and game theory and sociology and civil engineering. In other words. Textbooks marxist dupes don't read.
all you got from your studying political science is a big and fat elitist conciousness. still ignorant, repeating yourself wont change that, only reading the capital or asking someone who has done it will (yeah its not called "the socialist state".. go figure).
thats hilarious. in fact what i got was the ability to note an ad hom junkie without an actual argument promoting his pet ideology instead of a real world problem solving process. Your ignorant. But you want to imagine that i am. Its a bit silly, since pretty much everybody understands that marxism isn't a hotbed of solutions but instead is a dust bunny in the dust bin of history.
unlike you i dont have to imagine it, i can tell from your ideas about marx that you never read a word of the capital. anyone who knows whats in there can verify our claims so im really not on the defensive here. and id say you should be happy i dont expose your ignorance any further and ask what solutions the game and system theory has for the protesters concerns, that would get nasty real fast.
lol. My ideas about marx. How many times do i have to say that marxism is a dead ideology? What part of that do you not understand? In fact I did read all such materials, years ago, when i had the time to waste. And in fact i am in many respects very sympathetic to marxism. Under different conditions i might end up arguing to some stupid republican that they don't understand what it is and have over diabolized it. But not these conditions. In this instance the only important truth is that marx is irrelevant and bringing him up proves you haven't the foggiest notion what science in the modern era has to say. You can't expose me etc thats silly. And while i imagine you could get nasty real fast, over all, i'm hardly interested. I have the truth, and the power of truth is generally overwhelming one on one. You have nothing but a dead ideology which has nothing to do with anything in the real world. I'm talking hard science. Your talking stupid 200 year old ideology. Whos obviously won that argument before its even started?
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ in case anybody else is interested or actually imagines that marx has anything seriously relevant to this to say... by all means... go read it.... if you have the time to waste. Otherwise... try THIS instead. http://www.google.com/search?q=sociology+problems+and+solutions&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
But this is a fine example of WHY people like me are prolly going to end up sadly turning our backs. I'm here arguing with a marxist? lol. shieet. I could have been at the beach. Or playing a game of chess. Or masturbating. Fer fooks sake.
whos trolling like a boss lol.. intercourse finishes here.
This is a major problem that needs to be fixed, mods are censoring based on their own personal beliefs. Theres be a few of these posts already.
The IRC moderators do get out of hand at times, banning people who disagree with their own individual positions on a given issue.
If one asserts to despise the abuse of power, they can't then abuse power themselves. Even in something as minor as IRC chatroom moderation. Because yes, it does make them a hypocrite.
I was considering going down to NYC for this weekend, before heading on to DC for the Oct. 6th rally. But I think I'll just wait. This thing just still seems too disorganized and confused for my liking. If you're interested in the Oct. 6th rally, feel free to check out this site:
http://october2011.org/frontpage
Sorry man but I have some major hang ups with issue #5 to be exact. I am NOT a globalist, and holding ourselves to laws made by the UN (which most member states do anything to screw the US) is a major erosion of our freedoms as a sovereign nation. I am not willing to give other nations a voice as to how we do things here in the US. I have some hang ups about unrealistic demands made within other issues as well.
fixed as well...
i agree, completely. IRC chat on the other hand wasn't the place to try to get this addressed. my own IRC chat experience was telling and i realized that the people there are middle managers not the core admins. The people running the irc chat can't even manage to connect a message up the chain. In short, there are assorted epic communications failures all over the place. This is why they should have come and been working with me first instead of wrecklessly bumbling through a protest. https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150409084095833
For me it doesn't change the issue, when you place a hypocrite in a position to censor people's speech simply b/c he doesn't like the message, then you've lost me, and more likely others as well.
All I told him is that there is a image problem and that if you want more support you are going to have to come up with a realistic objective and place a lid on the open Marxist speech b/c the general public is severely turned off by Marxist ideology and doesn't like protests that lack direction and a objective. Now censoring the Marxist is not the same as ASKING them to tone it down for the benefit of everyone. (you figure of all people a Marxist would understand that right?)
But if those are the people making decisions, I'll have no part of it.
i agree. buddha dude shouldn't have admin powers. this movement is running angry and blind and in many senses stupid for lack of organization, and lack of metaprocess. What more can i say? You and me both, looking in from the outside.. can only try to help them or shrug our shoulders and walk away from the mass stupid.
I tired to help, they shut me out, I have other ways I can spend my time.
i just wasted a few minutes in the irc chat and linked them to this thread. they don't seem able to admit error or have a conscience on the matter. This entire so called movement is pretty rock stupid across the board like that. Its like trying to talk with a brick wall.
I'm leaning heavily toward agreement with that statement.........
These are not the people making decisions. I'm not sure who is, but definitely NOT the irc channel ops. At least not the active ones.
so how do we talk to people making decisions? and how is a headless middle manager crisis with zero accountability some kind of argument in favor of an organization?
Go to the square and speak at general assembly. That's the only way I know of.
i live in SB. CA. I am not making it to the square unless somebody sends me a ten thousand dollar check.
The next closest thing you can do is go to the 'about' page and email the guys.
i was in contact with the site admin yesterday. trying to be patient.
Someone put him there, and that shows bad judgment. Besides how hypocritical is it to take it upon yourself to ban someone from part of what is supposed to be a leaderless protest? Hmmmmm......
Here is the chat dump without the non-essential stuff from others to filter through
[11:08] <AngryJoe> Cold hard reality check time.Your image in the main stream media is what really matters, that's what reaches the most people.
[11:11] <AngryJoe> @Buddha you have to look at this from a marketing perspective-- to gain support. You have to appeal to the majority to be effective.
[11:12] <AngryJoe> @Anon shut the ones promoting socialism and communism up. They are the ones that turn more and more people off.
[11:13] == AngryJoe was kicked from #occupywallst by Buddha [show some fucking respect]
[11:14] == AngryJoe [515eb10a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.94.177.10] has joined #occupywallst
[11:16] <AngryJoe> @Buddha I'm just telling you what I see, how that is disrespectful I have no idea. Actions like that are what kill support faster than anything else.
[11:18] <AngryJoe> @Buddha You may not like my observations but to gain support, which is what you want and need to be successful, you might want to pay attention to what is turning the general public off to this protest.
[11:19] <@Buddha> AngryJoe: what you are saying is an extension of your ignorance and the ignorance of the people that you know, you saying that they need to be shut up is the fucking issue, they are people too and alot of the "communists" and "socialists" have been helping since the beginning of this entire process [11:19] <@Buddha> so before you go judging the situation
[11:19] <@Buddha> maybe you should get a fucking clue
[11:22] <AngryJoe> @Buddha Hey great that they've been helping, but what are their true motives? Accountability for DC and Wall St (which is what I sense is step one) or the radical overthrow of the republic to install a socialist / communist government? These aren't people I know that I'm talking about either, they are random individuals I come in contact with at work and outside of work while I travel. Whether you admit it or not, you {cut off} ((have a image problem))
[11:23] == AngryJoe was kicked from #occupywallst by Buddha [youre fucking stupid]
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HOORAY FOR CHATLOGS! AngryJoe If you decide to abandon this because one mod booted you and hurt your feelings, you may want to ask yourself some serious questions about your motives. Sit back, relax, think about what to do. When these people made these comments, what was your reply? Did you attempt to educate them on some of the issues discussed here-in?
its not just that. thats just one example. everything about this entire so called movement is a clown circus. i go in and try to talk about this issue with them in irc chat... they can't even manage to FOCUS on it or answer me. Its like chatting with 13 year olds while they play video games. I keep attempting to educate. i keep attempting to help. I keep attempting to share. The "movement" has no ears and no brains and no sense and is rock stupid and ignorant.
Go read down, the reasons for withdrawing support are mainly a lack of direction and realistic expectations which is ultimately due to a lack of judgment. Even after making that decision I went back and tried to help, but it was to no avail. This little incident didn't make my decision it just solidified it. I really want wall st accountable and those who caused this to be held accountable along with the politicians who allowed it. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind, but being a libertarian the whole raging communist / socialist "we're right you're wrong workers of the world unite" thing is quite a turn off being that I'm of the "do what you want, leave me alone" philosophy.
Please describe to me what it is to be a libertarian, then please describe to me what it is to be a socialist. I submit to you again: When these people made these comments, what was your reply? Did you attempt to educate them on some of the issues discussed here-in?
What policies do you feel led to the Housing Crisis of 2008? Can you describe to me the details of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act? Tell me your thoughts on laissez-faire capitalism. Do you feel that our current system is closer to that or to socialism? What is your take on for profit health care? Do you feel that there is such a thing as a "self-made millionaire"? I would genuinely appreciate your perspective on these issues. That is a big part of what this forum is for! Share your ideas freely! I will revise my perspective if yours make sense. I've done it before. My ego is not so fragile that I cannot handle being wrong about a subject.
I could write a book on all of that.... but in short.
We I'm more of a social libertarian, than a strict libertarian. I do believe in regulations (especially of those who will not regulate themselves or behave ethically) to ensure a fair level playing field for all involved and laws to do the same. I also believe in the rights granted to us under the Constitution and the government erodes those more and more every day. At the same time I think no corporation is too big to fail and they should have to live with their bad decisions and although it shouldn't be forever, there should be some safety net for people who fail so they can get back on their feet. I'm also a firm believer in equal application of the law, just because a corporation did it doesn't mean someone can't be held responsible b/c someone made the decision.
As for socialism, you want pure Marxism or examples of Marxism applied in government? I read Marx's work in college, and no it's never been successfully implemented. The short of it is, we all work, we all own the land, we all get a equal share of the proceeds because we all own the shovel. To each from his ability to each according to his needs. As for practical application, well lets just say it never turned out very good.
Housing crisis? 30 year clusterfuck of bad regulations, legislation, mandating that loans should be given to people even though they couldn't afford them and unethically qualifying people for loans they could never afford so a broker can make a quick buck. Then with cheap loans come higher housing prices due realtor overpricing / over-speculating and a supply glut. The whole thing is the fault of the government and the lending industry.
Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act? The death of the Glass Stegall act. See housing and stock market crash for end results.
laissez-faire capitalism. I'm not 100% in favor of, unfortunately we need to regulate to maintain honesty and integrity. (depressing isn't it) but we need to remove most regulations in the majority of areas and add to others. (like the finance banking and insurance industries)
as for for profit health care, without the profits there will be even less research. What I favor here is medical tort reform (for medical providers not drug companies) so the providers liability insurance can be lowered tremendously allowing health care to become cheaper and more competitive.Also break up the giant health insurance companies to promote competition. (Blue Cross Blue Shield is a perfect example)
Our government is a mix of laissez-faire capitalism (what do you think allowed them to short your 401k out of existence?) as well as some socialism.
alright I'm tired of typing and need to go pick up some dimmer but I think you get it and I might be back later.
https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150409084095833 the assorted questions you ask prove ideological assumptions and intellectual incompetence. Socialism is a 200 year old dead ideology, as is marxism, as is libertarianism. We don't need any stupid evil dumb crap, we need modern science centered fact centered problem solving process- and thats not going to have anything to do with any of the topics you just mentioned.
gawdoftruth, you are now playing semantic games. You will also notice that I did not bring up socialism, marxism, or libertarianism. These were brought up by AngryJoe, so I requested that he define his terms. He did, and I appreciate his doing so. I agree with more of what Joe says than disagree, and I think we all do. I am also a big fan of science, and fact centered problem solving processes. But the reality is we have language and we sometimes must use shorthand to get a message out. The main problem with the term "socialism" today is not that it is a 200 year old dead ideology (please provide a cite for that statement, unless that is a personal opinion). The problem (as I see it) is that people automatically assume that Socialism and Democracy are diametrically opposed. This is not true. I read your facebook note, and there are some very interesting thoughts in it. You can definitely be a boon to this cause. But please, I implore you, do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Either of you. Sure, it's rough around the edges. Sure, some don't know what they are talking about exactly. I will admit to not knowing everything. I KNOW! Someone on the internet that DOESN'T know everything! My questions were to begin an honest and open dialogue.
I do take some exception to you suggesting that I am intellectually incompetent, but I promise not to lose sleep over it. Try a little less vinegar and a little more honey. It really does go a long way.
Don't give up and pull your support from a cause that you are clearly interested in (it brought you to this website, right?) because someone was a mini-dictator. They find their way into everyplace. We deal with them every day. Let's do what we can to minimize their affect on society.
Oh, and gang? irc IS like chatting with 13 year olds while they play video games. It's a venue for quick and dirty ideas to run with later. It's not for long drawn out discussions. The medium just isn't suited for it.
Please don't quit. We need you.
Oh wow, gawdoftruth's email references Prometheus. Dude. You might need some meds yo.
i'm happy to let the CIA or the pigs come chat with me any time. If they act like assholes and try to yank MY chain like they do these protestors i will most certainly reflex and eat them like poor tiny little ants. If they want help solving their civilizations problems, then they NEED me. If we should happen to get confused over that and i get crucified, Its not like this was anything other than a big bodhisattva game for me anyhow and when i leave here i'm going home instead of your civilizations local karma wheel. I don't need meds, I have access to the mind above and beyond what you do; you need to wake up and grok that I'm the one whos ultra sane and your the one whos hazy from meds. Email me. Track me down in person. I'm the Djin incarnate, and i'm just as powerful in person.
no, i am not playing any semantic games. as far as your social systems theory, democracy and socialism or communism CAN exist in theory in one system. Republicanism or capitalism are both absolutely contrary to democracy and can't. So the next time some republican tries to tell us we are being socialists, you might mention that capitalism and republicanism are both inherently fascist and anti democratic and that at least socialism or even marxism or communism can in theory exist inside of a democratic system. I'm not playing any games. I studied political science, its your turn all of you to go run google. The fact of the matter is that marxism or communism or socialism are not optimal solutions and contain no solutions, they are all ideologies outside of science and based in agendas and propaganda wars; not truth. I agree that we agree mostly with joe and i agree 99 percent with the occupation. lets talk about what i don't agree with. i don;t agree with stupid ignorant arrogant noise instead of science centered problem solving process. i don't agree with a social movement which ignorantly echoes all the same epic fail social errors of the system which its fighting against. I am not suggesting that you are incompetent. I am saying Be competent and go find the truth. I take the time to do that and so should everyone. Whether or not you personally have is immaterial. the mob hasn't. and that IS THE REAL PROBLEM.