Forum Post: You Have Been Deceived
Posted 11 years ago on Sept. 1, 2012, 11:05 a.m. EST by ZenDogTroll
(13032)
from South Burlington, VT
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
There are those who do protest: politics is not what OWS is about. This is most assuredly false.
OWS may not seek to support or to endorse any political candidate or party, yet I insist, it is political.
Political babble does not kill OWS.
Lies might.
To oppose injustice is a political act.
This is most especially true when injustice is codified as a social standard by a political entity.
It may be difficult to grasp - but it is a fact.
You have been deceived.
.
.
z
I see Occupy Wall Street as more of a social movement than a political one. Change society first, then structural changes to the economic and political systems will follow.
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I get what you are saying. This is why I think we all need to work together even if we don't agree 100%. The varying positions, or arguments, all have validity. Nothing is black and white.
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No argument from me.
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Sounds stylish.
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True that. The republicans have spent a lot of money to fight it too. A lot of money. And their funding comes from many of those who wish to suppress alternative energy sources.
And leaders of both parties have called bombs and sanctions a humanitarian / freedom fighting effort.
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Dennis Kucinich works for the people and has a perfect voting record.
He works for peace.
He's the same guy who calls out Congress and speaks against Wall Street and writes legislation to end the rule of the banksters and use monetary policy for job creation and city building.
Favorite quote... "Is this the US congress or the board of director's meeting for Goldman Sachs?"
Dennis is a smart man and he knows his facts.
Taking out Gaddafi was planned under Bush. You won't hear me argue against that case. I was saying it back in 2011. Fulfillment of the neocon war agenda still happening under Obama. Former Democrat presidential candidate and 4 star general who worked in the White House during the Bush era exposed that the Bush administration and the neocons were planning on taking out 7 countries' governments. He did so back in 2007 or earlier while Bush was in office. Around the same time Dennis Kucinich was trying to get Bush impeached for war crimes. Libya was on that list along with Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Somalia, Syria, and Iran.
"A negotiated settlement in Libya was deliberately avoided... The NATO command recklessly bombed civilians in the name of saving civilians." - Dennis Kucinich
Look into it. Look up pictures of Sirte before and after NATO
No alternatives were even considered. As the commander in Chief he can choose not to participate American supplies, troops, and bombs.
Now they're surrounding Iran with warships. Congress is passing legislation to prepare for war with Iran. HR 4310. They've crashed a navy ship into an oil tanker in the straight of hormuz and have shot innocent Iranian fishermen.
I stand by my previous comment.
I can support changing society. We need it.
change socially how?
respect for manual labor?
Change the way we view our relationships with one another on a personal, human level. Change how we view our relationships with other humans around the world. Change our relationship with money. Change our relationship with stuff. Change how we value labor. Change how we value education and knowledge and art. Change how we value the earth and her precious resources. Etc. Lots of change. That's what I'm hoping for.
Yes bw, it is very much a social movement, and it certainly isn't a partisan politics one like it is here. Anyone here who isn't partisan gets branded as a 'trouble-maker', and is asked to quit picking on OWS supporters.
I think the over-arching message of Occupy is to bring about social change, but within that, if we truly are the 99% we're going to have Dems on board, Odin. I don't think there's anything we can do about that and we have to all work together. I understand your frustration though.
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Just comment on the threads you like. That's what I do.
That's good bw, and you have a wonderful gracious presence on this forum, as do many others here who are helping teach, connect, and learn here. I encourage you to continue on doing what you, and so many others here do so well. But the fact is, this forum has been in jeopardy of being transformed into something it was never meant to be, or should be. Every time I am with those wonderful people in NYC, and then come back here, I realize how far that we are devolving downward here. So, I feel that my job here, to re-track this forum to be a better place than it ever has been, a place where we mirror, and support what is going on in the streets, also to be very important. To be concise, you have chosen your job here, and it is a good one, and I have chosen mine. Both are important.
Agreed and well said.
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OWS has always been open to people from all political persuasions, even republicans. However, that doesn't mean they are open to any type of discussion. OWS has a very clear mandate to respect. It's open to dems joining their ranks, but it would be against the OWS mandate to march in support of Obama.
You're mixing apples and oranges. Odin, hchc, and I have never said we would like an OWS without dems, we are saying we would like an OWS without partisan politics.
Okay, it's very good to clear that up here, I think. I never thought differently and didn't mean to sound as if I did.
Wow you are such a man of strength . . . no wait a minute . . . you were gonna hold off on your BS until Tuesday . . . Huh . . . so much for will power - Hey?
WTF?
Valid opinions and you start in on him. You talk a good game of being a peacemaker, but your true colors are starting to show. How is this helping anything, DK?
No, I was going to hold off on You until Tuesday
You boke the truce DK, shame on you!
What BS is that?
Go away Eeyore - I saw evidence of your brain sizzling on another thread - better call it a day and ice down or something.
Brain sizzle eh? Trying to bait me in to drop the ol ban hammer on me?
Listen, the fantastic four can do what they want here. Like I said, its the internet. There is no downward wiggle for most of the posts, just stinkles.
Stinkles are easy to deal with, just move onto the next post. Seeing your peers look at you with that look of "hurry it up" is another.
You're like a little child. You realize that right?
You understand, too bad your forum friends don't.
ows change society? you are hopelessly deluded
Less deluded than you, who wants to continue on the path of demise that we've been on.
the "path to demise" is being purposely led by obama , how owners and handlers and valerie jarrett.
Brudlo, we've been on the path to demise for 40 years or so. Take off your blinders, put your sorry nationalism aside, and start caring about real people.
you have a problem with nationalism? are you ashamed of being an american? if you are an american , you are among the luckiest people on the planet. " real people" are living the horrors of obamas adminstration, thats why they know he should he be re-elected.
Politics are the means by which wealth and power are distributed in society. Because of this, OWS is necessarily political; as are all of us. What is social comes under this heading. Great post Zen.
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Policy making IS what OWS is destined for ....
In the pure sense Politics is the Art of Policy making....
when we have direct democracy in place, we will as the 99% define policy...
we cannot do that by choosing a side... we need to be Independent Voices & Thinkers....
We are not "Groupies" ... We do not blindly follow our Leaders, We have no leaders... We are the Leaders... all 99% of us...
The goal of OWS is not to use direct democracy nation wide. Even the die hard anarchists know this is a fable. The GAs collapsed because it didn't work on the local level, it certainly won't work on the national level.
The anarchic elements of OWS are useful in that they help us organize a fluent, open, and powerful protest engine. That's about it. You need a representative system of some kind to run a nation of 300 million people. Creating delusions that we don't is just a waste of time and will not help us strive towards a better world.
well ..... I agree a representative system has it's benefits ... (when not corrupted).... and we can & will have representative's who are experts in their fields... and we can & will choose to support their opinions....
but I want Direct Democracy in place.... and I'll bet that the rest of the 99% will enjoy it too ... once it is working
What makes you think it will work nation wide even though it has failed miserably in small local Occupy GAs. Is there even an Occupy faction still using direct democracy on a regular basis? Direct democracy is a time suck.
well ... if it don't work... it don't work....
but can't be any worse than the current system we got... that don't work either !!!!
no ?
Of course it could be worse. Many countries have systems much worse than US.
Anyhow, should we push something just because it's different and we estimate it can't be any worse that what we have now? Shouldn't we have better reasons, very strong reasons, to push a new system, especially since it will create a period of transition which could be quite difficult?
PoliticalBabble, think about this....
We want the money out of Politics... no?
Our politicians are no-longer statesman ... they have proven that they are willing to be bought & sold...
They are not representing the people....
therefore, our only alternative is to represent ourselves
I never said this wasn't the case.
Why the red herring? You just changed the subject of the discussion out of nowhere.
??? what change of subject ????
if we represent ourselves ... that IS Direct Democracy ... no?
OK. I see.
Well, you have a breach of logic when you claim that our only alternative is to represent ourselves. You don't provide a reason as to why we only have one alternative. You imply it. We could just as well try to modify the constitution or the laws, or modify the system to some degree. We could also try to change the system entirely for a new one which could also be based on having representatives.
yes... we can do all those things.... but I'll bet we can get a DD system up and running ... and making the changes ... far before we could could amend the constitution or clean up congress ...
Again, why do you think this? Occupy already created general assemblies using direct democracy and they failed. It's time to turn the page. Your stuck in last year's thinking.
This site used to have the line "we want to create general assemblies on each street corner" on the front page of the site. They removed it not long ago.
U sound confused Babble.
1st U were saying don't get in volved with the political process - OWS is about the people doing it 4 themselves.
Then Brad talks about the people doing it for themselves with Direct Democracy - And U start saying that that is wrong.
Screw-up on your meds or sometin?
I didn't say people doing something for themselves was wrong. I said that direct democracy does not seem to work. That's why OWS dropped it. You know that right? There are other ways that people can organize themselves to do stuff together. There's no contradiction.
This forum has not dropped the concept of Direct Democracy. And I really do not think that you understand the concept.
Babble/trashy U have a hard time finding a place to stand or U just like to fuck around.
Anyway - Go Away.
They still hold GAs in Detroit all the time.
What else are you lying and trying to divide over?
Moveon.org?
DD is a "Consensus Building" thing... a dynamic thing... something that changes, improves & evolves... the GA test runs had problems because they tried to get rapid results in quick times....
Consensus needs to be built.... and needs to be able to change as we learn more.... it's really about finding truth...
If interested... we spent tons of time arguing this & architecting a workable system at the NYCGA site...
I can't disagree that the problems of the GA might have been the particular implementation of direct democracy instead of direct democracy itself. Good luck. I'll keep an eye on the matter.
In passing, I hope you guys don't write letters to the president?
It's the endless talking, not the actual voting, that is the time-sucker in GAs.
The endless talking is an integral part of the voting process in the direct democracy framework. It's how you come to a consensus, it's the fundamental idea of direct democracy. Direct democracy is not simply the constant coming together of people to independently vote on matters as if it were a series of referendums, direct democracy is the idea that we can discuss matters so that we can all come together to consensus. It's not simply about voting, it's making compromises so that we all agree on something.
That is one form of DD, but not the only one.
Even so, there are far more efficient and effective ways to discuss and deliberate than the GAs have been using.
True.
that justice is codified by arbitrary laws ?
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You are correct of course Zen.
I am deeply disappointed with dems. They must change drastically! I will protest to create that change.
I won't pretend there ain't an election in 8 weeks or thedems are better than repubs.
I can't do that. I'm not telling anyonewho to vote for. Just pointing out facts. educating. Letting everyone decide for themselves as informed people.
Peace, good post.
Babble boy could be Odin or one of our frequent disrupters. IDK
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At least global warming isn't a punch line with the dems like bullmitt Romney.
Dems have serious problems. That won't change without OWS protesting for the progressive change we need.
But I will NOT serve the party who doesn't support move to amend, greentech, and a host of other issues.
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Whatever serious problems dems have to resolve, The people also must overcome the problem of apathy. OWS will pressure all pols for the change we need. OWS should also be an engine to pressure all people to get engaged, before, and after elections. Not just during. The protest must become a constant part of the future process of getting the change we need.
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we can't really guess. We have to be ready for anything.
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Yes great posts. informative on the coming crises. Still er have to be ready for anything.
the Green Party?
Love the Stein lady! Love the green party. Wish she could win. We must support move to amend, debate reofrom, and other electoral changes to allow access of 3rd parties.
this election should be an opportunity
defeating republicans have made it into a social stasis
This election SHOULD be an oppurtunity. But it ain't. We must get the changes I listed & more done to create that opportunity.
we haven't challenged the system
I think OWS has begun that process. We must grow this movement, join with like minded groups, create larger coalitions to put the massive pressure necessary to truly challenge the system.
Keep the focus in the people's press on insider trading. Keep writing letters to congressional members about why it is illegal for everybody else to practice insider trading, but not them.
Load U-toob with videos about insider trading by everyone in congress that is making money illegally this way.
If you want criminals for congressmen, keep letting them get away with crime.
Good approach, Excellent points. Agree 100%!
They are on the ballot. Its the mindless population that endorses the corporate parties that is the problem.
I don't appreciate your hostile angry, double standard personal political attacks on me so even though I agree with this I'd rather you stop harassing me.
You claim, and give me grief about not being political, not making this campaign central, then all your comments are about my vote, the ballot, and other election issues.
I don't think we have anything to discuss. You can skip me if you like.
Thx
So you are voting for the Jill STein?
I may. I think that's kinda personal, I don't have to tell you! Why is that your business?
And why are you getting political? I thought that wasn't allowed? You give me hell for talkin politics. How is talkin about who I'm voting for not political? And how is my private vote related to accepted OWS business?
Maybe you just want to harass me and/or personally attack me?
PoliticalPrattleKillsOWS? Don't you know thrassy when you hear him?
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Are you really confused. ;-)
PoliticalPrattleKillsOWS , just two more months
I never understood why users like shooz are worried that I use various usernames. It's not like I'm trying to hide. My usernames are usually related, my points are also related, and my writing style remains the same. If I wanted to hide it would be easy. I would write in a different way.
If the moderators would stop banning me and my ideas from this place, I would be happy to keep the same username and slowly build up a high score. But, as you know, one can evict a user, but one cannot evict an idea. I learned that from OWS.
So you know you are not doing what the forum approves of? And you continue because you alone know better?
LMFAO!
I don't care what the forum approves of in practice because it has been co-opted by partisan politic shills coming from moveon.org. If the forum respected the rules that have been written for it, than partisan politics would be removed from the board. Obama lovers such has yourself would be banned, and people like zendog who focus all their energy on attacking a specific party (which is akin to supporting the other party) would also be banned.
Have you heard of OWS? If so, have you heard of civil disobedience? OWS uses that approach. It does activities that are illegal like blocking ports or taking over parks to create campgrounds because it believes it has a message that is more important than law. I also believe my message is important. That's why I'm here. That's why I push my message by using civil disobedience.
But, as we both know, you also do the same thing. You also use civil disobedience when you try to turn this forum into an Obama love fest. You know it's against the stated forum rules, but you don't care.
You are clearly just an anti dem partisan serving the 1% republicans.
You have been banned repeatedly by the very wise moderators. I have never been banned.
I am doing nothing wrong.
I always use respect to challenge anti dem partisanship, to educate on the evilness of conservative policies (which are at the root of all our problems), and to dispute the lies regarding Pres Obama.
We MUST replace pro 1% conservatives with pro 99% progressives, and Protest, Pressure, & Agitate!
Peace & Solidarity
Every dollar that they gamble with came from our pockets. If we choose to withhold those dollars, by refusing to purchase items manufactured and sold by those corporations, we can change the way they conduct their business faster than any legislation could.
Just a 10% drop in revenue sends shock waves through the glass and steel towers of Wall Street. They may not see our signs or hear our voices out on the street, but they feel the absence of our dollars as if it was a knife slicing through the flesh of that giant corporation.
Is withholding our dollars a political act? Not at all. An act of common sense.
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Had no idea the word had such a broad scope. Informative.
I believe we are wittnessing the reemgerance of monarcy, if we look to the monarcy of old I think it explains the behavior.
I feel a part of the solution is to inform people of what exactly they are voting on.
I think in tough times most people will use the resources they have to get as much as they can, the wealthy can not shop at Wal-Mart (the poor can too it's not that cheap, but it's the ideal I'm talking about here) most people are just trying to get by and do good if they can.
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absolutely, it's not even that hard to see the game, make money=freedom, make the debt so large that governments become the servants of money, then pass your money on to your offspring and wallah...
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it is the also the only power player the people have any say in....
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it didn't go anywhere, but a lot of us left, because we got tired of hearing a pack of lies, or at least that's what I think, people get tired of lies, I know it sounds very simple but I believe in the power of truth...
There is something much bigger than the gov standing in the way....its the people.
Even has Walmart continues to pay its people like shit. As Tacobell continues to sell the population poison. As Bank of America continues to hit the people with excess fees......
The people continue to vote with their wallets every single day.
The people need to be shaken the hell up.
Hence OT attempting to do just that....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYRvP1CoTFQ&noredirect=1
we should refuse to work for companies we find morally objectionable
Nah... the problem is that we have empowered the sociopolitical government and we never should have; that was not the original Federal as national intent. When one seeks to codify his will over others at the local level, others can always move on to the next locale. When it is encoded on a national scale there's no escape except to the party that attempts best to appease. But no party is sociopolitical at its core, it's an economic entity.
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If we study the development of polity within tribal society on the level of the human dynamic we eventually arrive at certain conclusions.
How and why these things occur on the level of the human dynamic, the result of interaction, what paths they follow, what form of power entity or entities develop, etc... what we choose to esteem, how we derive status, and why... the abc's of basic human interaction... it's all very interesting.
To use the word injustice is to invoke the sociopolitical; what is it? What impediments if any.... and why... and how do we address this in America - it's all very interesting.
Do you really believe that a shout out for Obama will serve your purpose? Do you see him as your savior; as the key to unlocking all impediment, of granting influential access to the polity? Have you ever truly studied the characteristics of hero worship of various cultures; have you observed and examined these cultural differences or attempted to determine why they occur?
Why have we been reduced to the political rant, often of nonsensical proportions... and but a single vote?
Answer but half these questions and you will understand the choice not to endorse.
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government should serve the people
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Take me to your leader...
You want to know what we see when we look at Obama?
We see Great Britain, a land of big government and very little, little, people.
Yes, I've looked over Jordon...
Our "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" is their "peace, order, and good governance." It's a land of a hundred laws per thousand people and yet crime is rarely ever prosecuted.
I'll stand with Obama on the day he J. Edgar's the corruption in government and within his own party; it appears he would rather celebrate it.
I'll stand with him when he orders the immediate cancellation of the national debt; when he frees my children, grandchildren and great grandchildren from his intentional enslavement: Let my people go.
I will stand with him when he stands to deny the decapitation of our ideological kopf...
He is probably one of the worst Presidents this country has ever seen...
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Yes and I have always viewed them in that light. Obama has served the rich very well.
America never had a great president like Nelson Mandela.
Very few people here understand the core idea of OWS that we, the people, can and must create change at the local level without, and this without is critical to understanding OWS, waiting for politicians to do it for us.
Putting energy into the elections is waiting for politicians to make the change we should already be doing ourselves. Every time a user here comments on politics is time he could have spent commenting on how we, the people, can create a better world ourselves.
If you don't believe we can do it without politicians, then you don't believe the fundamental message of OWS. And, if you pay attention to, or otherwise invest time in political activities, then you really do not have faith that we, the people, can make the changes we need for ourselves.
Such ignorant babble.
Mindless, uninformed and uninformative.
Here's a bit of reality. Once you make the change, you become the politician. You cannot escape it.
There's a difference between members of a community all working together to make change, and them waiting for their local politician to do it. If you want to call all these members of the community politicians because they are taking the future of their community into their own hands, so be it. It doesn't change the fact that it's not the same thing.
What you're talking about is a commune.
I'm talking about actual cities and towns.
You know modern reality? With all it's complex services.
It's not what I'm talking about, it's what OWS is talking about. And, no, it's not about communes. OWS has been creating change in communities all around US since it started. They are active in NYC, and other cities, there are no communes.
I think it's time you start educating yourself about what OWS is about.
You think OWS is moveon, it's not. Shouldn't you understand the group you claim to be taking part in. You sound like a moslem in a christian church constantly saying he's in a mosque.
It's my belief that at least some parts of OWS have been co-opted a while ago.
Please do tell about the city or town that OWS is operating today?
Who said OWS was operating a city or a town?
OWS is working in various communities around US. That's what I said. I never said they were operating those communities.
Look in the news section of this site if you want to read about the latest OWS events and activities. The latest news blurb talks about occupiers fighting to stop shop closures.
Do you know what grass roots activism is? It's fighting in front of a shop, instead of going through the political or judicial process. It's believing that we, the people, can make a difference without having to count on politicians, lawyers, or judges. It's basically taking the law into our own hands. That's OWS.
Someone like DKAtoday would write a letter to the mayor to try and stop shop closures. That's because he's counting on someone else, a politician. An OWS protester goes out and fights directly in the street.
Wrong O Babbling One.
I would write a letter and share it with the community - stating what should be done. It is the same as a public protest - except you can lay out the message cleanly and clearly.
It is the people who will demand change - and part of the demand will happen in a voting booth - part of it in petition campaigns like Move to Amend - part of it in recall actions of politicians that refuse to work for the good of the people.
All of the actions that are needed to be taken will be pointed out in the streets and over the internet.
You implied it.
Now you even imply that I'm a muslim.
Plus of course the FLAKESnewsian moveon thing .....again!
Why are you such a jerk?
No, I did no imply it. I also did not imply that you were a moslem. Perhaps the whole reason you fail to understand OWS is that you have a major problem with English reading comprehension.
Then I am expected to ignore your comment how I'm like a muslim in a church?
Sorry bud. That's an implication.
It's your understanding that's a bit substandard.
So what is it with your hang up on all things FLAKESnewsian?
Why is it you seek to divide?
Please. It's called a metaphor, it does not imply that you are a muslim. And, there's nothing wrong with being a muslim, the fact that you think my metaphor was meant as an insult clearly indicates that you think being a muslim is something of a problem.
Again, take some English reading comprehension classes.
The right question is rather: Why do you, shooz, seek to imply that I seek to divide?
Oh my!
Now you want to pretend you're a poet??
Screw that! You're not.
You used muslim on purpose, just like FLAKESnews does.. You're the one that keeps up the BITCH about moveon!
That's division and derision
I suppose you are one of those that BITCHED about union co-option under a different sock puppet.
Socks puppets in and.of themselves are divisive, and more than a little tyrannical.
So stow one more of your implications.
It becomes increasingly clear that you are NOT commenting to unite.
Using rhetorical devises from FLAKESnews does nothing to improve your veracity.
You want to unite?
Then stop being afraid.
Are you mentally ill? You're just like a conspiracy theorist, basing all your claims on delusional assumptions. Do you ever base your decisions and actions on fact?
Spoken like any other jerk that can't find any other way to respond.
Insults and implications.
Lame is as lame does.
The answer to your last question, though you as usual have ignored mine, is yes.
Hey Babble Meister - People can work outside of the establishment to do things like food and clothing drives etc.
But that really does not work to shutdown things like fossil fuel use or the industries destruction of the environment.
Nor does it stop things illegal foreclosure.
The fact that you think that we, the people, can't do all those things without the need for politicians means you don't have faith in OWS. There's nothing wrong with that. It's not easy to believe that we can create change grass roots style bottom up, we, the people, ourselves, in our communities. But, it's the core ideas of OWS.
Your lack of faith in OWS explains why you find it necessary to write letters to the President. Instead of using your pen to complain about the current state of affairs to the man in charge, you should use your pen to take charge by drafting the ideas that we, the people, can use to create our new world. That is OWS.
Go for it - Babble Meister - lay it all out.
How do the people stop fossil fuel use and the environmental destruction caused by fossil fuel industries?
Give us your A to Z layout.
Then go ahead and address stopping the mega monster banking illegal foreclosures. A to Z.
Good luck DK. I'm off to Washington square park with my family and friends to take part in whatever OWS has goin on there.
Peace & Solidarity.
Have a good day - mention the forum and be ready to give the directions to get here = occupywallst.org
Let everyone know that we would love to see them post their stories here and also share them out to social media.
cool. too late.
If you're coming from the upper west side, take the A, C, or E train to West Fourth St. From there walk a few blocks east. I have been to Washington Square Park many times with OWS and OTS.
One group will not do this. One group cannot be everything under the Sun without suffering a harsh weakening. For a group to be strong, it must have defined, restrained, and clear objectives. The idea is to use a multi-faceted approach.
If we look at the people fighting for our environment that emanate from Canada we have a good example of this. We have speakers and writers like David Suzuki educating the masses. We have political parties like the Green Party putting pressure on the political front by playing from the inside. We have GreenPeace which is active directly on the ground. We also have Sea Shepherd, which, like GreenPeace is active on the ground, but they are active in a different way; they use more aggressive methods.
If Sea Shepherd tried to be Suzuki, it would be weakened. If Suzuki tried to be GreenPeace he would be weakened. Etc... To be consequential and meaningful, all these groups or tactics must be true to their own selves and must remain on target as to their respective goals.
In US, candidates for the Green Party are important. MoveOn.org is also very important. OWS is important. However, they all operate in different ways, and they all have different goals. Even though their grand ultimate goal is the same, their respective goals on how to achieve that are different. They all attack from various angles.
And, this is VERY important, sometimes the goals of one can contradict the goals of the other. For example, if David Suzuki used the aggressive methods of Sea Shepherd, he would not be able to communicate with the people very well. If Sea Shepherd used tact and diplomacy like Suzuki, it would not be able to intervene so effectively in critical situations when whales are being killed.
OWS is made to fight the system as a whole from the outside. When you mix that up with fighting from the inside by going into partisan politics, you stray from the strength of OWS and end up making it weaker. Similarly, MoveOn promotes progressive solutions and attacks the republicans, if it started to attack the democrats it would be shooting itself in the foot. OWS is needed. MoveOn is needed. But, they must be kept separate so they can attack differently and remain effective.
I wrote all this, but still, you will refuse to try and understand. And, still, you will write a letter to the president and purport to being an OWS protester for having done so.
It bewilders my mind that the handful of people who are constantly using this site on a daily basis are the ones who completely and utterly fail to understand even the most basic premises that underline OWS.
So - Basically what U R ( like that? ) saying is that U have nothing.
There's that FLAKESnewsian hang up on moveon again.
It's like propaganda personified in the babble man.
It's like the powers that be's desire to "keep 'em separated".
Keep 'em weak. Drive them from unity!
Yeah, you're a real winner babble.
For the Kochs!
OWS is like John the Baptist, pointing out the sin and corruption of our political and economic culture, imploring Wall Street and Congress to repent of their crimes, pointing to a just and beneficial way to run their affairs instead.
But like John, OWS was imprisoned and eventually had it's head, the encampments, cut off.
Maybe OWS has already served it's purpose. It's now up to the people to decide if they will serve money, or serve justice.
Ah, yes, but if I recall my Biblical history, John was only a harbinger. The real deal was in the wings.
The real deal is in the wings, economic and political collapse. At least for the majority.
That may be just the beginning of pandemonium, as the global political structures began to implode.
Economic collapse usually precedes political collapse, but in our case I'm hoping for a soft political collapse to prevent a hard economic one.
A political collapse brought about by a lack of confidence in the two party system that will shake out the corruption and be replaced with decency.
The world survived the Great Depression, bad as that was even in this country. Of course FDR appeared on stage just in the nick of time with sweeping social reforms. Then WW2 fused the people of America into a unified power, but I'm afraid there's no FDR waiting to fill in, and a modern global war would be too devastating to imagine.
I wish we could take all the warmongers from every nation and place them in a desert far from any civilization, give them every weapon imaginable, and let them slaughter each other.
That would be nice.
Agreed, but instead of the desert, a remote island surrounded by sharks, with no boat, and no long range weapons...that would be much better.
demand elections be national and state holidays
I'm starting to feel the same way. Perhaps OWS has already served it's purpose.
Tr@shyTroll : Here's your true voice and intent & in case you post factum delete, I'll copy again below :
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[-] -2 points by PoliticalPrattleKillsOWS (-83) 1 day ago
I'm starting to feel the same way. Perhaps OWS has already served it's purpose.
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You'd love OWS to go away isn't it ? LOL, Scumbag ! Those with ears to hear know what you're about !!
anguis in herba ...
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Actually, there is only one real troll. The others are just kids with bitchy attitudes but they are actual supporters. The tag team was probably Mark with some of his various user names.
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I do but it's not useful. Mark is just a pest. The kids are students that have formed an important affinity group. They're just rough. As most kids, they are jockeying for alpha and how does one do that? By challenging what or who they see to be the current alpha (older people).
A lot of work over the last year. A full explanation would bore you to sleep.
WTF are you babbling about?
No no no - trashy did U 4get? U R into Squabbling now - Babbling was so day before yesterday.
There are two trolls, you, and I. You spammed the forum with your links and also have a gazillion usernames.
Really? Thats an interesting point of view. Spam? Like this? A blog of support and real topics about inequality? That is actually inline with the Occupy position on autonomy.
what is posted does matter
I recommend posting intelligent and civilized comments (at length) on media websites and blogs. Just a suggestion. Both left and right. I must stress the importance of making sound points, and the highest level of civility.
Best forum comment of the week hands down:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/my-apologies-to-all-republicans/#comment-823425
Fantastic. My views went on air at a local talk radio program all last week and now more of my material will be making it on air all this week. Notice MSNBC picking up the FED debate this week? You will. Watch closely now.
Ya, like that.
Again, I ask, where is your substantive support for Occupy. Being an ass on the forum with making no points or productive debate?
Show your work homie.
world change has always happened without
political action
...................................................................it just takes a lot of money
...................................................................and no political opposition ...................................................................just check with lewis powell ...................................................................or ask david & charlie
Political entities are comprised of individuals, as such they exist to serve themselves. To remain in power they must either be possessed of our full approbation, wield a mighty hand, or negotiate for the maintenance of a peaceful coexistence.
The polity in this country is very well insulated to the point where it blatantly ignores our concerns; to effect change we must exert pressure on the entity itself. Obama is one of "them" in a rather extreme form.
We have been deceived:
The market is not part of the real economy. The real economy is the production and consumption of real goods. The market is part of the system or distribution of real goods. Like management, government, physical infrastructure and transportation, trade [the market] adds cost but no value to the goods that one produces and another consumes. Trade and FIRE may be useful services, but goods would be less costly if the market was non profit. The market is parasitic. It lives by dissipating the body of the real economy.
Read 'How Does That Work' at: https://www.createspace.com/3852916
Also, invention and innovation are the tips of the spear. From learning how to sharpen sticks with rocks, to the invention of the computer chip, innovation has led to vast improvements in human living standards (perhaps more than any other single factor). Thus, whatever we do, whatever alternative model we come up with, it must preserve (and ideally enhance) human prowess in innovation.
absolutely! science and engineering are an essential part of the labor of production. I wish the managers who downsized me in the '90s (I'm an EE) had understood the importance of anything real. All they care about is the price of the stock.
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good. i wondered. let me know if it works for you, when you get around to it.
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"Political babble does not kill OWS." True to a point, but if enough people become convinced that there is a political solution to the mess we are in...that can be very harmful to this movement...so it's best to nip it in the bud, which is why I have my sheers out so often. ;-)
I just spent one of my more unusual days in the city with OTS and OWS in a two, and a half hour meeting in Washington Square Park. Some really bright OWS kids who I knew from seeing them in protests before. Meetings though are not my cup of tea in the best of times. I did feel honored though that I was trusted (although for the most part everything is open), and it was very interesting to sit in, and listen to the S15-17 plans, and changes, that were being made. I had little to offer other than to say that the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire, and the parallels to what we are doing should be mentioned. They told me that some of the union guys were going to cover that. Anyway these young people were amazing in the depth that everything was covered, and this showed me again the amount of collaboration that goes on continually. This rev is in good hands Zen, not on this forum though.
My 'collaboration' if you want to call it that, lol mostly took place after the meeting when we talked about setting up OTS banners, tools, supplies needed, and stuff like that. I did finish off the day with a long walk down to the WS Bull where I was invited to an Occupy Dance rehearsal. The young ladies in ballerina and toe shoes, and one in a tutu were doing their dances holding onto the steel barricades that surround the bull, and singing rebellious OWS songs. They wanted me to join in the dance rehearsal, but I said 'nooo way, I would protect them instead'. After I started to walk to the Bowling Green train on my way home, one yelled out, "thanks for protecting us...."
That little anecdote has a purpose Zen....
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Another thing: Yes "these are serious times, we confront serious issues against serious men," Who have a lot to lose if we win, which brings us back to that quote, "Let us raise a standard to which the wise, and honest can repair; the rest is in the hands of God." You do your part Zen.
You can use any one of the defs of "politic" to convey what you mean. The solutions to our problems may be political, but the route we in OWS take now should not be. In my 30 or so trips to the city, and in the many conversations I have had, I think only once, have I come across someone who suggested that WE, OWS should get involved in the political system. This may be an more common though in smaller cities where a small number of people can change the course of their Occupy as has been done on this....see no eyes... forum to a big degree.
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OK, the deliberate decision not to get invovled in the political system may indeed be a "political act," but that in itself does not mean that we should, or even that even that we should not get inv...... That's just semantecs to me. I have stated the reasons why we/OWS should remain outside the putrid political system time, and again to you, and many other people here. That, and the fact that this Occupy Wall Street revolution has a well-founded disdain for traditional politics should be reason enough for staying out of it.
I had always pictured myself as being one of the bridge-builders here, healers even,....between the streets and this forum, not just protesting, but reaching out to the mainstream...on a personal level... in my involvement with Occupy Town Square, who does it so well, it is being emulated throughout the country now. I have also been very careful not to over-state my contributions to this group, as they really do pale to most of the dozen, or so other members in it.
The fact is that most of the other people like me, with the exception of a few, and an occasional visitor to this forum have been been driven off of here by people who want to turn OWS into a partisan campaign. Due mostly to my Scandinavian heritage, and hence my hard-headedness, I remain here, and will continue to be here. Whether it is as Odin, or not is mostly inconsequential to me. I will never give up on this, never.
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You cannot build bridges while singling out individuals for scrutiny.
It's the difference between "political talk" and "endorsing candidates." There is a difference.
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I was just trying to clarify Odin's position. A lot of this contention comes from a misunderstanding of that subtle difference, I think. He's against the shilling for candidates, but the shills think that means he wants them to leave. I don't believe that's the case. With a possible exception or two, but those are people whose motives he questions.
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It has turned into a war, that's true. And unfortunate. Both share the blame for letting it get out of hand, however. In my opinion, that is.
You may be right, but I will not let this offensive decide things.
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Your failure to understand OWS is monumental. OWS already knows exactly where it fits in relation to the political dialog surrounding the upcoming election, it fits outside of it. And, it already knows which measures are effective and which ones are not. If you went to a protest you would see it has nothing to do with politics.
An OWS protester should believe that he does not need politicians. He should understand that he is powerful enough to create change on his own. Change created by the people is eons more powerful than change created by representatives.
Now is the perfect time to stop talking about politics. It's the best time. If OWS ignores politics in the midst of an election it will show how much faith it has in the idea that people can make real change themselves. If we succumb and play into the elections, it just shows we don't really believe in the idea that we can change things without representatives.
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Get out of the box then.
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If you allow yourself to be trapped in that political box, the just action that may lie outside of that box will never be seen or acted upon.
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OWS is outside of the box. Why aren't you?
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That is the lamest argument I've ever heard. Look up "cognitive dissonance". It may unlock the door for you.
We get what you're saying. You don't believe that the core premise of OWS is true. You don't believe that we, the people, can affect change from without the system. This is what is so strange. If you don't believe you can step out of the box and make change, why are you even here? Really, that's strange.
This explains why you go on about the republicans and the democrats all the time. You're in the box and you're going to stay in it because you don't believe it's possible to get out.
There's nothing wrong with your belief, it's just that if flies completely in the face of OWS. You really are like an atheist going to church every Sunday. Very strange indeed.
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And when enough of us get arrested for standing up for what we believe in, the rotten system we all live under will know it is on it's last legs.
No, it doesn't. Every time a protester is arrested it shows he's attacking the box from the outside, that he's doing civil disobedience. That's why he's getting arrested.
I'll repeat jrhirsch's question: OWS is outside of the box. Why aren't you?
I mean, you can believe that it's impossible to be out of the box, that just means you don'T believe in the most fundamental idea of OWS. Why are you here?
He sees the box, he sees the box!
He's halfway there. Now, to become an OWS protester he needs to cultivate the faith that he can work from outside the box to affect change. Until then, he's like a moveon.org dude.
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Why don't you stand against tyranny with people in a group that share your basic ideas, like moveon.org? Why choose a group whose main idea you have no faith in?
I'm asking earnestly and hoping for an honest answer.
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Now if he can just see the door.
You see the box, you see the box! Yeah!
You're beginning to understand! Now, to become like an OWS protester, you must believe that you can be active from outside the box! Simply stated, that's the only difference between you, a moveon.org type thinker, and an OWS proteter; the OWS protester really believes he can make change from without. He believe this so much that he DOES NOT care at all about the elections.
And, if you don't believe you can be out of the box like you state above, then why are you even here? That would be like an atheist going to church every Sunday morning. He would be a the wrong place. Maybe you just like church, or maybe you just like Christians? Metaphorically speaking of course...
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That's fine, so you don't agree with the most fundamental idea of OWS, that we can attack the system from without... That we don't need politicians because we can make the necessary changes ourselves. OK.
Then, why are you here? Why don't you push political solutions with a group like moveon.org? What's the point of wanting to be part of a protest that doesn't share your ideals?
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It's not that I don't accept you. I accept you. I'm simply wondering why you would stand with a group whose main idea you don't believe in?
And, it seems more like you who has an acceptance problem. You do know that OWS is open to all political persuasions right? You do know that there are some republicans in the OWS crowd. Why do you dish them by calling them repelicans? You don't accept them.
Of course, that's normal because you play inside the box, inside politics. Your ideas are in line with moveon.org, not OWS. And, really, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Again, I'm just wondering why you don't simply fight with them, instead of coming here?
Your posting makes little sense. It doesn't address the problem I described.
How about answering these following questions as honestly as possible. I'd like it if you could, it would help me get a better grasp of where you're coming from. Of course, it's up to you.
1 - Do you believe that we, the people, can change the world through OWS?
2 - Do you believe that we can change this world without the help of representatives?
3 - If you answered yes to both questions, then wouldn't it undermine your "yes" to the second question if you were to look at representatives for help?
4 - If you answered no to the second question, then why do you consider yourself an OWS supporter if you do not even support one of the basic tenets of the group? Isn't that like someone who goes to church every Sunday, but doesn't really believe in Jesus?
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The idea of OWS not to participate in politics is such a fundamental idea for OWS that not believing in it is not simply rejecting a part of OWS philosophy, but it's going against the core principal of OWS and basically rejecting the whole thing.
Your ideas parallel those of moveon.org, not those of OWS. You've missed a fork in the road and you find yourself on the wrong forum.
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Honestly, I think you know you don't belong here. I think you're smart enough to understand that OWS is about fighting outside the system and you also know that you don't believe in that. You know you're breaking the forum rules with your partisan politics. You know that your thinking is in line with moveon.org, not OWS. And, really, that's absolutely fine.
I think you're here because of Thrasymaque. You like how he keeps this forum lively.
'Tr@shyPrattleKillsU' : U m8 & r a fukin' narcissist sans pareil !!!
Mad, Sad & Very Bad. tch, Tch, TCH - Worra shameless sophist !!!
Jean/John/Josh what R your connecxions to The Hannah Arendt Centre @ Bard College ?
U wanna play games Windy City, Cookie Factory Boy ? I'll b yr huckleberry, si tu veux ?
"Honestly" ? What qualifies you to use that word ? WhoTF made you Gauleiter here ?
e tenebris lux !
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gno's gorra pun {;-p)
verum ex absurdo, eh ?
fiat justitia ruat caelum !
[ps: shh, it sms 2 hv hit The Fan]
Throw it against the wall and see if it sticks, eh?
Or we like how you talk to yourself in the third person?
LOLOLOL & wipes eyes !!!
Too funi 4 Latin, above & below ...
And the fourth and fifth.
Yes, that too.
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Exactly, Odin. I can't believe some of the illusions our people in Raleigh have. We had one group who visited a right wing state senator's office to politely dialogue about possibly freeing up some funds for the mentally ill. I think they felt swept away by the sense of being part of the big game. Others were getting up funds to contribute to a cop whose house burned down. And heaven forbid we should use slogans about revolution. Instead, we shake up the respectable citizens with controversial assertions like " Human Rights are More Important Than Property Rights."
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How can I believe such a tale? According to the World Wildlife Fund, republicans have been virtually extinct in Vermont for 20 years. Experts are debating the exact status of the remaining few. They rarely exhibit the familiar Suit exterior except during courtship displays. One mutant variety, known as the Ron Paul subspecies, actually shows signs of developing a capacity for independent thought, heretofore not considered characteristic of the more familiar Republicus americana which is found in great numbers usually around churches and buffets in the plains and southeast.
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That is useful to know. I admit to being woefully uninformed on recent Vermont politics, that is anything after the Green Mountain Boys.
Somehow I got it in my head that Vermont was unusual, that all Vermont dems were pro business and all Vermont republicans were anti-business because the only business is Ben and Jerry's.
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I hate Golden Coral, for the record.
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It's inspiring to see a forum user living OWS reality. You are bridging the gap between this forum and the protests on the ground, and this is crucial if this forum is to become meaningful to OWS. What you are doing is worth more than all the letters DKAtoday sent to the President. Don't stop, even if he continues to assault you with childish name calling and uncontrolled swearing attacks. At the moment, you are the most important user on this forum because you are the only one who understand OWS truth from OWS fiction. Ironically, you were banned, not those spreading the OWS forum illusion.
How exciting it would be to see these OWS "kids" who are creating the revolution come on this forum and share what they are doing with us. How exciting it would be if we, the ones who can't make it to the protests, would be able to directly take part somehow and truly help OWS in a direct manner.
I believe this might be possible, and I believe truth always prevails. You are the only one here bridging the gap. Don't give up. Others will follow. Eventually, this forum will either die because of political babble, or it will be revived by people like you who bring reality to this place. One day, I believe the people most respected here will be those who have a true and deep understanding of OWS. Don't give up, your day will come.
Political talk does not hurt OWS in the least. In fact it will strengthen us!. Educating all people on the issues and pressuring all pols towards our positions! Voting cannot solve our deep systemic problems. No one has said that here.
Protests along with an effort to replace pro 1% conservatives with pro 99% progressives WILL make a difference.
All non violent tactics! Incl voting! OWS welcomes all political persuasions evenn Dems! Working within and without to create a new system.
We cannot pretend that elections do not exist. We must engage the 1% tools who have taken power if we are to be successful taking our governance back! If we ignore the ballot we will be surrendering power to conservative 1% tools, and therefore setting back our chances at creating the new bottom up, horizontal, direct democracy system.
Peace
Educating people on politics is important, but it's not Occupy's job. This is definitely something that is hurting us. There's a reason why the forum rules mention no political babble.
You should use MoveOn has your vehicle for political education. That's what it was made for.
OMG! The FLAKESnewsian fellow is back with a new improved sock puppet!!
Just like the old sock puppet and just as lame.
You seem more interested or capable in using logical fallacies like ad hominem to counter my arguments than to actually counter them properly with well founded arguments of your own. In the long run, that's a losing game.
It might seem like you're winning because you're in the Twinkle Team (DKAtoday, zendog, VQkag2, and you) and your friends twinkle all your comments and stinkle mine, but, really, you are digging your own hole. High scores mean nothing, only good ideas matter. And, you haven't posted an idea in months. You always reply with logical fallacies. It's sad.
One of your more fact and information free posts yet.
Spoken like a jealous child.
There was nothing untrue, or misleading in my post.
Yours? 100%
Twinkle Team? haha.
I prefer the Fantastic Four. But it be turning into the Terrible Two. The first two seem to have moved much more towards "screw em all" in the past few months, though not quite at occupy levels. The last two are still clinging to a false promise.
You and trashy becoming good buds now?
Why does that not surprise?
Oh come on, stop... :)
You have to admit, Twinkle Team is pretty funny. Just like Eore is :)
Rochestarians are big on nicknames...
Well then you will like this one: hchc Odin and trashy the new forum triumvirate? Or should that be Virus?
Virus seems a little harsh to me haha.
If this thing turns into two groups battling it out against one another, then we are in bigger trouble than I thought :)
What is really strange ( or maybe not ) is you and Odin becoming best buddies with one of the forums most active attacker's. The bot user the sockpuppet user the trashy one.
For everyone who's part of OWS, what seems strange is a guy like you purporting to care about OWS and then spending his nights writing letters to an absent President. This activity is akin to legitimizing the system when you should be fighting against it.
Those R open letters of chastisement that R also shared out to the public on the internet.
But that U fail to comprehend(?) not surprising as U seem to have constant ( chronic? ) comprehension issue's.
the verb "to be" often need not be used at all
What's up with the SMS style U's and R's. Are you a teenage girl or something. Write like an adult, especially if you claim to be OWSs president letter writing guy.
hchc, you will never have to worry being the point leader here. That dubious distinction up until now anyway, is obviously reserved for people of less integrity, as witnessed by DK's trashing of the relationships i have with my family
You have 'officially' been labeled a "touble-maker" by the Grand High Exalted Leader of the racoons, from Coon Rapids...lol
You can expect, even your most thoughtful comments to be down-voted in droves, and him and/or his buddies will most likely even go back into the archives to punish you, as they did me
It is as frustrating as all hell now to DK that he has lost the trust of the administration here, as I am sure that they were taken aback by his unprovoked reviling attack on my family, and I
Can you picture the veins popping out of his neck, and his face turning red? I can.
While he is denigrating the "triumverate" (good word), he has no problem standing alongside VQkag who is undoubtedly one of the most divisive, profanity laden people on here
DK's hypocrisy is amusing to me to say the least
Just in case, I am wrong about my assumptions, i have already picked out some new new pseudonyms, one of which is.... "1ionudk"..... That's in reference to him calling Odin, "one-eye" lol
And Odin the odious slimeball squeaks - "again" - Hey - U R best buds with trashy now? If you are looking for a likely sockpuppet and bot user to blame for your diminishing score ( down votes by the hundreds anyway ) then you should look at your bestest new friend TRASHY - as that "is" Trashy's style/MO.
Your whining because I struck a nerve - WHEN I SLAPPED U and NOT Your Family. Maybe U should seek a therapist to work through your personal issues which you have apparently denied.
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I thought you said you did it, guess I misunderstood. The internet doesnt really allow for inflection of certain points. My bad.
Yeah - U R.
So you admit you verbally attack a supporter's family?
That is over the line. There is a line, you know.
Shove your head back up your ass troll - don't try to put your words into my mouth. I never attacked slimeballs family. Now get back to your triumvirus and slink off to a corner.
I think I have a link to that thread if you're interested. Not trying to stir up trouble, mind you, just thought you might want to judge for yourself.
Look at yourself. You go around the forum calling people asses and assholes. Why? Most of your postings sound like they come from the mouth of a badly raised teenager. And what's with the lame U R instead of You Are? Did your grandson start teaching you Internet lingo or something? Dude, we're not SMSing each other like little teenage girls here. Just write You and Are like adults do.
U R A Liar 4 sure 4 sure ( don't like the way I comment to U ? Good ).
BTW - only asshole shills - trolls - quislings - rabid jerks - corpoRATist's - RINO's and such - get the special treatment.
& U R so Special - did U ditch your keepers again?
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I don't bother twinkling or stinkling anyone. I used to do that with bots when comments could be collapsed, but what's the purpose now? It's a waste of a mouse click and brain time. I know it bothered you when another guy was using a bot to attack you and I never understood why. Who cares if a comment goes down to -5 or goes up to +7. Do you think that means something?
Liar.
Yes PPKO, DK and his multiple pseudonymed buddies do mistakenly believe that by using the point system, and by having people banned...it is a way to quell the voices of people who do not want this forum to sink into the abyss of partisan politics
What is really frustrating to DK now is, he longer holds that sway, as the forum people are 'onto him now.'
You sound very angry and emotional. I think you're addicted to this forum and it's interfering with your day to day life. Take a walk outside. Smell the flowers. Care for your family and friends. You shouldn't always be here, it's just not healthy both for you, and for those you insult with your aggressive emotionally charged attacks.
Sorry - I am not angry - and U should talk about a forum addiction(?) U who gets constantly booted for your BS and U can't take a hint - to go away and stay away. I still don't understand why the mods don't boot your ass immediately after knowing who U R in your new persona's.
I find it quite funny actually that U seem to be best buds with hchc and Odin now. hchc should know better as should Odin. Hey how many of Odin's lost points are U responsible 4 ?
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I disagree!
Isn't it wonderful that we can disagree in a respectful way! This movements strength lies in it's tolerance, inclusiveness, and diversity of opinions.
It is so encouraging to know we can come here and express out opinions without people pretending to speak for OWS and telling us to "go to another site", or attempt to curtail our free speech. Don't you agree?
I think people who use such low down cowardice tactics can't argu freely in the marketplace of ideas! Don't you agree?
I have read and heard the following from OWS"
"OWS embraces all non violent tactics!" Incl voting! "OWS welcomes all political persuasions" even Dems! "OWS encourages Working within and without the system" to create a new system.
Peace, & Solidarity!
We need everyone, and every non violent tactic!
I know. You have no idea what OWS is and isn't. You think it's just like moveon.org.
I do not think it's just like Moveon.org!.
You do not speak for me. When you do you are simply using tried and true republican, KarlRovian word twisting, mud slinging (to get some to stick) smearing, that intelligent people here know is untrue.
I have read and heard the following from OWS"
"OWS embraces all non violent tactics!" Incl voting! "OWS welcomes all political persuasions" even Dems! "OWS encourages Working within and without the system" to create a new system.
Peace, & Solidarity!
We need everyone, and every non violent tactic!
Thank You so much, but your compliments might be overstated. This is not the role that I thought that I would be playing on here, but I know that it is an important one. I have some good allies here too that understand what this rev is about. Together we know that we are fighting for the soul of this forum, and I do want it to come to a head, yes.
Most of the kids (I'm in my sixties, so anyone under 40 is a kid to me lol) who are making the real sacrifices, and doing the real work, are either too busy with OWS, and school and/or jobs to come here. Sadly others know how toxic this forum has become, and don't bother reading it.
Only today at my request, one of the bright young ladies in the group I belong to Occupy Town Square offered to come on for me. But the more I think about it, the more I would not want her to be exposed to the crap that goes on here. I am very protective of them, kinda like a papa bear. ;-)
There are many forms of resistance that people can take part in, chief among them probably is moving your money to a credit union. I also stuff junk mail into my credit card offer envelopes, and write OWS somewhere, leave OWS lit off in super-markets flyer bins, libraries, laundry-mats etc., usually 2-3 at a place. I have a 99% sticker on my vehicle, and also called all my elected reps up, and told them in a calm, and firm way how useless they are. Never have I asked them for anything though.
Thanks again, I will never give up. Odin...for now anyway ;-)
Indeed, why would we want to bother someone doing something real for OWS by asking them to come to this forum. They would just waste their time which would be a waste of time, energy, and effort for our cause. It's best they remain on the street doing something real.
The only people who can save this place are the administrators, and the moderators. They must care, or else, it doesn't matter if people like us care. If they did moderate appropriately by following the rules and managed to change the discussion on this forum to being about OWS, then, and only then, would it make sense to ask protesters to come here and share their stories.
If this does happen, then it would make sense and we could help by doing activism online which would be directly related with what they are doing on the ground.
What do you think it costs to run this site, T? I imagine it's probably pretty expensive. Got a ballpark guess? I only mean this website, not any other OWS-related expenses that may or may not be tied to this site.
About 10$ a year for the domain, and most likely something like 20$ a month for the server. If there were more users, the server would have to be better.
Thanks. I thought it would be higher. That helps explain why it's still up; not a big financial hit.
Yes I agree, and that is when I would want my felow Occupy Town Square members to come on here because as much as they are into out-reach, they also know the importance of the streets. The leader (kindof) of OTS was arrested for taking part in the protests in Montreal. In a sign of Solidarity to him i gave one of the young ladies in OTS $50 with a condition.....even tho i know OWS does not like conditions ;-)..... for it to be for a couple pitchers of beer when they gather. Odin
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OWS is not political in the same way that MoveOn is. They are both useful, but very different. Turning OWS into another MoveOn is totally useless because MoveOn already has that mandate. We must attack the system as a whole. We must remain against the system by not favoring one party over another. Saying that Obama is better than the republicans, is akin to saying that Obama is not that bad, is akin to saying that we should protest less against Obama than the republicans. I'm sorry, but the system is broke. We must protest against whoever is controlling it with full on might. Obama might seem great when compared to the republicans, that's what MoveOn does. But, he really doesn't seem that great when compared to what we should have, this is what OWS must strive for.
What I don't understand is why people want to turn OWS into another MoveOn. Why not have both? If you want to engage in partisan politics, why not do it where it belongs? When you do that inside the OWS context, it just hurts OWS as it contradicts the basic premise of OWS.
And really, it's quite conservative to go the the MoveOn website, take their ideas, then post them here like VQkag2 is doing. It doesn't add anything new at all. It's entirely anti-progressive. If we want to be progressive, we have to bring new ideas here, ideas that haven't yet been discussed by MoveOn. Ideas that have to do with attacking the system, not a particular party within it.
But, really, this does not matter much. This really only happens on this forum. If you go to a GA or an Occupy protest you will see they have no interest in partisan politics. OWS has not been co-opted yet, only this site has.
Nobody wants to turn OWS into moveon. Those are the scare tactic lies of republicans that you've been using to create fear and dessention.
Get a grip.
I support protesting Obama and other Dems. I HAVE! I will continue. We must if we are to create the change, take back our govt and improve the lives of the 99%.
I just won't pretend there ain't any election coming up in 8 weeks.
crap
and still no sign of making it a holiday
But at least Repub controlled Ohio has been forced (by dem appointed judge) to reinstate 3 day extended voting.
that's good
judges are not supposed to take sides
How about the side of justice? That's what this one did.
Rocky Anderson calls his party ":the Justice Party"
Yes. He sounds ok. Don't know much about him. Of course you know I wasn't referring to his party.
Presidential Hopeful Rocky Anderson: Dems, GOP United in Stymying Third-Party Candidacies
We must get the changes I listed & more done if they are gonna have an opportunity.
what changes ? (let's not be vague like 2008 )
Money out of politics, real debates, other things to allow 4rd party access.
How do you think it will happen.
open disclosure of government actions and projects
Agreed
Well said!
Thx!
Regularly giving Obama a thumbs up like you do undermines your protesting against him.
Oh yeah? You think he knows? lol
Please. Stop trying to infring on my free speech. If I was doing anything wrong I would be banned. The mods do a great job. They ban people when they deserve it. YOU know that!
I will not attack this Pres now 8 weeks before this election because thatwould be serving the most evil1% tools we face.
I can't pretend there ain't an election in 8 weeks. Every issue OWS cares about can be addressed with progressive solutions.
We must replace as many conservatives with progressives in order to improve the lives of the 99%.
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Yeah, but it's no worse that making a dozen sock puppets to bitch about it.
This site was and still is co-opted by libe(R)tarians.
The fallout from the Mr. P invasion, are still here.
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Your posts are not about understanding the complex narrative of US politics. If it that were true, there would be no problem. Your posts are about pushing one party in favor of another, that's called partisan politics. Constantly attacking the republicans is just another way of pushing the democrats. You would be attacking the system as a whole if you understood what OWS was about. What you're doing is paralleled by MoveOn.
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It still beats the position of ignorance you are taking.
How about another FLAKESnewsian screed on moveon?
My last post was from move to amend. Maybe that is your confusion. Not Moveon. I don't post moveon ideas. I express my own passionate pro 99%. opinion.
And the concept of money out of politics is most definitely political and most definitely an issue that OWS embraces, and most definitely progressive, NOT conservative.
Your moveon accusation is baseless. If I was doing anything wrong I'd be banned like you have been repeatedly. BUt I have never been banned.
SOLIDARITY!
moveon can't have good ideas?
They do have fine ideas. But I don't get ideas from them.
Nothing like splitting hairs.
Then there's that FLAKESnewsian obsession with moveon.
First they came for ACORN...............................:)
thanks for the ID.................................jerk
Solidarity!
Thx
Closer Than You Think: Top 15 Things Romney and Obama Agree On
Posted 3 days ago on Aug. 29, 2012, 9:03 p.m. EST by PeterKropotkin (769) from Oakland, CA This content is user submitted and not an official statement
by BAR managing editor Bruce A. Dixon
Too much agreement between Republicans and Democrats has always been bad news for those at the bottom of America's class and racial totem poles.
15
Although unemployment is the highest it's been since the Great Depression, the federal government should NOT enact any sort of WPA-style program to put millions of people back to work. Under Democrat Franklin Roosevelt in the 1930s, Depression-era unemployment was tackled head on by direct federal hiring to dig subways, build roads, schools, parks, sewers, recreational facilities and public buildings. Oblivious of this history, Democrat Barack Obama maintains that only the private sector can or should create jobs.
14
Medicare, Medicaid and social security are “entitlements” that need to be cut to relieve what they call “the deficit.” Republicans have been on record for this since forever, though they claim not to want to mess with the Medicare people already over 65 are getting. One of the first acts of the Obama presidency was to appoint a bipartisan panel stacked with “deficit hawks” like Republican Allan Simpson and Democrat Erskine Bowles to recommend raising retirement ages and cutting back Medicaid, Medicare and social security, and pass a law directing Congress to have an up or down no-amendments vote on its recommendations. Fortunately the “cat food commission”, as it was called, was deadlocked and offered none. But Obama and top Democrats, most recently House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi continue to express their readiness for some kind of “grand compromise” with Republicans on this issue.
13
Climate change treaties and negotiations that might lead to them should be avoided at all costs. The differences between them are only style. Democrats admit that climate change exists and is man-made, Republicans say it's a myth. But both ignored the Kyoto protocol and Obama like Bush before him, has worked tirelessly to delay, derail and boycott any actual talks that might lead to constructive international climate change agreements.
12
NAFTA was such a great thing it really should be extended to Central and South America and the entire Pacific rim. Again, there are differences in style. On the 2008 campaign trail, Obama sometimes mumbled about renegotiating parts of NAFTA, and such. But even before the primaries were done, press reports had him assuring the Canadian government this was only campaign rhetoric, raw meat for the rubes. In four years he has pushed NAFTA-like “free trade” corporate rights agreements with South Korea, most of Central America and is now secretly hammering out something called the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement.
11
Banksters and Wall Street speculators deserve their bailouts and protection from criminal liability, but underwater and foreclosed homeowners deserve nothing. Well, maybe not exactly nothing. Republicans think underwater homeowners deserve blame for forcing banksters to offer millions of fraudulent high-interest loans were then re-sold to investors around the world. Democrats think underwater homeowners deserve empty promises of help that never quite arrives for most of the foreclosed, the about-to-be foreclosed, their families and communities. But both agree on free money for banksters and speculators but no moratorium on foreclosures and no criminal investigations of mortgage and securities fraud.
10
Palestinians should be occupied, dispossessed and ignored. Iran should be starved and threatened from all sides. Cuba should be embargoed, and Americans prohibited from going there to see what its people have done in a half century free of Yankee rule. Black and brown babies and their parents, relatives and neighbors should be bombed with drones in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and similar places. The politicians and corporate commentators have a misleading name for this. They call it “foreign policy.” The realistic term for it is global empire.
9
Africa should be militarized, destabilized, plundered and where necessary, invaded by proxy armies like those of Rwanda, Ethiopia, Burundi or Kenya, or directly by Western air and ground forces, as in Libya. President Georgia Bush announced the formation of AFRICOM, the US military command for the continent which has officially swallowed all US civilian diplomatic presence. But only a black US president, even under the cover of “humanitarian war” could have invaded an African nation and openly dispatched special forces to Central Africa.
8
US Presidents can kidnap citizens of their own or any nation on earth from anyplace on the planet for torture, indefinite imprisonment without trial or murder them and neighboring family and bystanders at will. To be perfectly fair, there are distinctions between Republicans and Democrats here that don't amount to differences. Republicans Cheney and Bush got their lawyers to say these things were OK and did them. Democrat Obama got Congress to enact “laws” giving these acts a veneer of fake legality, something a Republican probably could not have done.
7
Oil and energy companies, and other mega-polluters must be freed to drill offshore almost everywhere, and permitted to poison land and watersheds with fracking to achieve “energy independence”. The Republicans say “drill baby drill” but it seems only Democrats can chill out enough supposed “environmentalists” to make this happen. Obama campaigned on restricting offshore drilling four years ago, and reversed himself just before the BP oil disaster in the Gulf. The White House cooperated with BP in lying to the public about the extent of the disaster and has shielded BO from paying anything like the value of actual damages incurred to livelihoods, human lives and the environment.
Read the rest at the link below
http://www.blackagendareport.com/content/closer-you-think-top-15-things-romney-and-obama-agree
If you are going to keep printing FACTS like that then you must be an anti-Dem, Republican who likes to torture puppies.
Seems like anti Obama partisan politics to me. I ain't confused. Pres Obama is light years better than Romney and any other Repub.