Forum Post: Wow - Sarkozy, Obama and Netanyahu
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 8, 2011, 2:41 p.m. EST by looselyhuman
(3117)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I'm not one of the rabid anti-semitic haters/skinheads that troll this forum, but I do have problems with some of Israel's policies and with our nearly unconditional support for them. I think we should be a better ally, and that means standing up to Likud when they're being unreasonable... Of course, doing that has caused Obama to be viciously attacked by the GOP...
Anyway, interesting:
French President Nicolas Sarkozy called Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu a "liar" in remarks to US President Barack Obama overheard by journalists.
"I can't stand him any more, he's a liar," Mr Sarkozy said in French.
"You may be sick of him, but me, I have to deal with him every day," Mr Obama replied.
The exchange at the G20 summit was quoted by a French website, Arret sur Images, and confirmed by other media.
Obviously not strictly relevant to OWS, but an important issue nonetheless. Both sides, commence flaming.
I'm not a vocal Obama supporter or detractor by any means but this was simply foolish. Perhaps he got blindsided by Sarkozy and wasn't expecting the tone or direction of the conversation that took place but it was a major political mistake from a global perspective.
I hope Israel takes of this on their own, I would imagine they are tired of being fucked with.
I see. I agree. Israel is as bad as America. In need of better leadership. OWS is in need of any leadership otherwise you wouldn't have to start by saying you're not a hater.
Yeah some better moderation policies would be nice. From my conversations with one of the mods, it sounds like they get sock puppets from multiple IPs doing all the hate speech, and they can't keep up. Something needs to be done.
The problems come from equating the current political party in Israel with all Jewish people. Many Jews, both inside of Israel and out, stronly disagree with Netanyahu. Sort of like when people think all US citizens are redneck cowboy idiots like George Bush. (There are way too many.)
I agree. Is there something in my post that you perceive as generalizing in this fashion? Or was this just a statement on the rampant anti-semitism around here?
Definitely an observation of the anti-semitism. Your post seemed objective.
Fully agree.
I'd agree with you. I don't believe in disputing Israel's right to exist and I find anti-Semitism utterly repugnant; a number of the best and brightest people I know are Jewish, and so is one of my closest friends. Incidentally, my friend isn't very fond of Israel's current behavior and feels like it's necessary for Netanyahu to reform. In particular, its human rights record with regard to Palestinians is dismal. I personally am very uncomfortable with Israel's handling of Palestinians, in particular their denial of humanitarian aid and supplies to Palestinians, their unwillingness to stop expanding into historically Palestinian territory, the mini-war of 2008-09, and the general institution of an apartheid-esque system in which Palestinians are second- or even third-class citizens on what was historically their land. They may be a parliamentary democracy, but the democracy is open to Israelis only and their hard right is as crazy and as scary as ours is. All of these points need to be brought to Israel's attention, and were they independent of us I would be for initiating humanitarian aid to both sides but very strongly against funding Israel's military.
The problem is that Israel isn't really independent of us, and in fact may never have been. They've essentially evolved into America's embattled, belligerent little brother, and that's also what the world sees them as. We are responsible for Israel, and we should not blindly prop them up while they pull crap, but if we blindly defund them I doubt anyone here is going to like the results. They depend on us for a lot of defense funding (among other things), and they're also one of very few countries in the region that is solvent, prosperous, powerful, and a guaranteed ally. If we simply pull the rug out from under them we take a major geopolitical risk for a number of reasons. First of all, Iran is a highly repressive fundamentalist theocracy whose government wants no part of us or Israel, and in fact is looking for an excuse to go to war and a group to demonize in order to distract the populace from its own abysmal human and civil rights record. If we pull the rug out now Ahmadinejad might decide to chance a war. If Ahmadinejad does decide to pick a fight with Israel you're guaranteed a fairly large regional bloodbath with the possibility of a second (Israeli on Palestinian) Holocaust thrown in for good measure. If Russia or China gets involved (which they might because China has interest in Iran) then the whole thing goes from a regional bloodbath to World War III.
By the same token, we have to consider the possibility that Israel reacts to our lack of funding by doing something stupid as well. Yes, right now a fair amount of their belligerence is due to the fact that we've let her quite literally get away with murder, and that needs to end. However, if we change our position abruptly and without warning Israel may spook and decide a show of force is in order to prove to herself that she's still safe. You're already looking at an embattled nation with a state-of-the art military, a large population they seem to consider viable hostages, and a hair trigger temperament, and now you're going to do something that will scare the shit out of them. That's pretty much asking Israel to do something stupid, and in this case we could be talking World War III or second Holocaust stupid. Given everything else on America's plate right now I think we can all agree that a human rights disaster and/or a large Middle Eastern war is the last thing we want to see happen.
My idea: start out publicly supporting Israel at the same level we do now, but actually go over there, meet with their leaders, and start laying down the law behind closed doors. Give them a deadline, and require that they recognize people's right to send humanitarian aid to Palestine, freeze settlement growth, and begin seriously looking at either a one-state solution with desegregation and full citizenship to Palestinians or a two-state solution involving a return to 1949 borders, Jerusalem as an independent entity a la Vatican City, and reciprocal free movement agreements so that Palestinians and Israelis have full access to both states plus Jerusalem. Set actual measurable goals for Israeli leaders to meet by given deadlines in order to retain funding, and then take the whole thing public. At the same time, quietly inform Palestinians that we're in the process of making Israel learn to behave and offer them additional humanitarian aid in exchange for beginning the disarmament process.
You have some good points and also make some fundamental mistakes. Gaza was Egypt once. The west bank was Jordan once. When Gaza was Egypt people simply starved their. If they are now it's because the Hamas thugs won't give them back their food. The Hashemite minority kingdom of (Trans)Jordan killed 20,000 palestinians, vanquished the rest to Lebanon and ultimately, Tunisia. That was Black September 1971. Keep in mind I bring this up to show that the ARAns have used the palestinians as pawns since the beginning. They don't care how many palestinian brothers die trying to stab one Jew. It's sometimes hard for me to defend Israel's government but half of the Israeli's say that as well. They do need to reform. They also need to give the palestinians a home land. They deserve it. When the US magnanimously gave the American Indians their swatches of desert they didn't say we'll put a wall around International Washington DC. Americans can't say that. They weren't thrown out of their home land every time some conquering tyrant took a piss. Jerusalem is Jewish. Always was and always will be. I hear Muslims say tha Jerusalem is holy to them. Pshaw. They bow to Mecca with their asses facing Jerusalem. The US goes behind closed doors and reams Israeli politicians daily. Still no right to tell a tiny country of six million surrounded by 100,000,000 bloodthirsty killers not to fight back. Israel is not getting away with murder. Have you seen how often the American media talks about the thousand of missiles that have continued to fall on Israel?
I have no problem with arrests of militants and I have no problem with Israel responding in kind to aggression from her neighbors. I also do understand that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is also very convenient for neighboring countries to point to in an attempt to arouse Islamic nationalism when they want to distract people from their own misbehavior. Hell, half the reason Ahmedinejad is doing so much saber-rattling these days is because he hopes that if he gears up Iran for war he can drown out calls for reform and indictment of his conduct during the last round of elections. I'm fully aware of that and I believe Israel has a right to defend itself.
My problem with them now is that a lot of their actions, especially the mini-war in Gaza and the wall, tend to mostly hit a captive civilian population rather than deal with the problem of militancy. Actions like that only inflame groups of otherwise reasonable civilians both in Palestine and abroad. In particular, this business with the humanitarian aid blockade is ridiculous; there's no reason to deny civilians food and medicine on the off chance it might make the lives of a few rebels easier. That and the insistence on pushing new settlements into traditionally Palestinian territory needs to stop; they don't really need the space and they're just aggravating the situation.
Finally, as far as Jerusalem is concerned, I don't give a flying damn which ethnicities and religions lay claim to what; it would be better for everyone if Jerusalem became the Vatican City of the Middle East. If Jerusalem is a predominantly Jewish city then it will retain a predominantly Jewish population and not much will change. My thing is that if you make it an independent entity that anyone with a valid passport has a right to enter then there's no reason for Israel and Palestine to keep playing football with it. Hell, Vatican City by all definitions of the word is a Christian city, and yet it's not part of Rome. I would honestly like to see something similar done for Mecca, by which the world's holy sites could be made autonomous of the countries they happen to be in.
I think you're smart and I like that you discuss in such detail. I can't keep going right now but I will say : I would make them stop the settlements. I would not have had such a big war with Gaza. The wall worked because it stopped hundreds of suicide bombers. I know you don't care about Jerusalem but Jews do. Just like Muslims care about Mecca...haj. No football. If you gave me your town then you may have a leg to stand on but only the Jews are expected to do ridiculous things like that and having preconditions for peace talks. Thanks for discussing. I wish everyone would be able to...like that, We differ...slightly but I seriously commend you. I've been fielding some insane posts and I'm tired and disappointed in it all. Even our conversation isn't for OWS forums. We need to unite against the people and things that put us in such a mess. Be will ARod.
I have sparred so many times on this forum with the rabid antisemites and white supremacists that they have labeled me "a crypto Jew". :) I make no secret that I admire the GUTSY Jewish people who were the first to stand up to the Roman Occupation almost 2000 years ago and in fact mounted two revolts which were unfortunately crushed.
And it is precisely BECAUSE I care about the Jewish people that I agree with Robert Gates, who, in a closed meeting with top U.S officials last July, described Prime minister Netanyahu as an “ungrateful” ally and a “danger to Israel”. http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/likud-defends-netanyahu-after-report-gates-called-him-ungrateful-1.382875
NO WONDER a large majority of former Mossad chiefs consider Netanyahu "a danger to Israel" : “12 of the 18 living ex-chiefs of Israel’s two security agencies (Mossad and Shin Bet), are “either actively opposing Netanyahu’s stances or have spoken out against them”. Meir Dagan - “one of the most rightwing militant people ever born in Israel” - cannot stand him. He describes the current Israeli government as “dangerous and irresponsible” (Ben Caspit in the Israeli daily Maariv).
Netanyahu is clearly NOT the man of the hour and for the good of Israel, he must go. And America and Israel must WAKE UP to the new political and economic REALITIES, which have completely changed in the space of only a few years. If they continue to live in the past, in complete denial of the present, I ask you : WHAT IS TO BECOME OF ISRAEL???
The interesting thing to me is that these people who spend so much time in the public eye have yet to figure out when they are speaking privately...
Ha, yeah. Maybe it's strategic? :o)
I wish they use Lubrican when they screw the American
obama is the worst president ever.
eh, i think Bush is worse. he helped us get here. at least obama makes an attempt to make cohesive sentences.
You mean like "how do you say that in Austrian?"
i mean like, obama can at least answer a question on the spot without sounding like a moron. whenever bush has to speak off-script he comes across like a bumbling idiot and side-steps the question before he can discuss it with his "people" and then come up with a response to address at a later time.
0bama doesn't anwer a question, he drones on and one with no point.
"Corpseman". Lol! 57 States!
0bama reads from a teleprompter, Off the promter, he babbles.
when they think the mikes are off, the anti-semitism comes out.
Can you explain how it is anti-semitic?
If I think Obama is a liar, am I a racist?
I am not denying that there's a lot of anti-semitism out there (this forum's trolls are clear evidence), but this sort of conflating criticisms of policies and politicians with hatred of Jews is not helping with that problem, and is dishonest.
Hear, hear!
If CRITICIZING NETANYAHU were proof of antisemitism, then we would have to conclude that 12 out of 18 former Mossad chiefs are antisemitic... LOL
0bama can't stand Israel or Netanyahu. I don't know what you are but 0bama is a serial liar.
if you dislike an Israeli leader, you must be antisemitic. I guess since you so clearly hate Obama you must be anti-American?
I don't hate 0bama , I hate what he's done to this country.
Name one thing.
Obama is an inactive fool. For example, Obama did not write Obamacare, Congress did. Obama did not write finance reform, Congress did.
Obama is a do nothing prime minister too inept to institute harm.
He signed 0bamcare into law, Nothing becomes a law unless the president signs the bill making it so.
Didnt sound anti semitic, sounded personal... I, too, reserve the right to dislike any imdividual who gets on my nerves
Why do you think Netanyahu is on 0bama's nerves?
Sorry i dont understand your comment... How I could i know why? He seems like a bush/cheney sort of guy, so my own opinion is that he's a jerk and a war monger...
Jerk? war monger? Please be specific.
He has set back peace talks, disrupted relations with eygypt and turkey, and is as bad as irans leader whose name i wont try to spell in spouting threatening speech. He is going to start war, and drag us into it... If i were obama, id also find that irritating, and as myself, i consider him dangerous.
The palis are not interested in peace. Netanyahu knows that.
He is not interested in peace,and came into office like a bull in a china shop, nor does he seem to care about the repercussions he will cause. Any leader who is not mindful of the bigger picture is a danger, and this guy is so intent upon intentionally escalating the situation that he is actually putting his nation at risk.
Who keeps firing rockets into Israel? The palis. Netanyahu will protect Israel. Israel will always be at risk as long as it exists.
Dont ignore the israeli governments contribution to violence, and to creating the state of hostility in which it flourishes. Neither party is innocent, but I can see from your post you have a bias that will only allow you to see a very specific perspective. Notably, i see that you do take the trouble to capitilize appropriately and use full words when referring to any israeli linked word, but do not do either when referring to the palestinians. This is a subtle way of diminishing them, much like when men call women girls. It is a propagandist tactic, as is responding by redirecting the conversation from an opinion of an individual to a debate of the regions problems.
You are a propagandist, and this conversation is over.
The palis diminish themselves.
Do you think its safe to say Obama has lost the Jewish vote?
LMAO
Not unless the average Jewish voter is as unthinking as you, Mikey.
You are almost as good at insulting the Jews as Barack Obama. Is it a neo-liberal thing?
Take a lesson from history. Hell, take a lesson from the election to replace Anthony Weiner. Jews care about Israel. Stick a fork in Bo-Bo. He's toast.
LOL. Spin so idiotic it's not even worth a response. I was only insulting you.
I can appreciate the need to call an argument you have no response to "Spin". Carry on. All is well.
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Netanyahu is one of the best leaders the world has.
WHAT THE RIGHT THINKS OF NETANYAHU:
In a closed meeting with top U.S officials last July, Robert Gates described Prime minister Netanyahu as an “ungrateful” ally and a “danger to Israel”.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/likud-defends-netanyahu-after-report-gates-called-him-ungrateful-1.382875
A large majority of former Mossad chiefs consider Netanyahu "a danger to Israel" : “12 of the 18 living ex-chiefs of Israel’s two security agencies (Mossad and Shin Bet), are “either actively opposing Netanyahu’s stances or have spoken out against them”. Meir Dagan - “one of the most rightwing militant people ever born in Israel” - cannot stand him. He describes the current Israeli government as “dangerous and irresponsible” (Ben Caspit in the Israeli daily Maariv).
Netanyahu will protect Israel .
I believe I prefer to trust the Mossad chiefs on that point... So far, Netanyahu has succeeded in doing more harm to Israel than all of her enemies put together!!! Time to exit, Bibi!
the smurf speaks.
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But you're not anti-semetic , or are you?
He/she definitely is. Learn to recognize the difference, please. Friends sometimes have constructive criticism, which is not even remotely the same as the hatred you see here.
Is that a generalization or are you saying that only I SEE hatred?
No, I'm saying that the hatred you see from this poster is not the same as constructive criticism you see from someone like me.
Alright.