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Forum Post: Workplace Democracy and Democratic Ownership -- Richard Wolff & Gar Alperovitz

Posted 6 months ago on April 14, 2014, 10:35 a.m. EST by struggleforfreedom80 (6584)
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55 Comments

55 Comments


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[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19985) 6 months ago

''There are many possible models for workplace democracy, but some form of workplace democracy is a progressive must-have for 2016. Signing up for a union should be as easy as open enrollment for health and pension plans. Every year or two, all workers in all workplaces - in all states - should be given the opportunity to vote for representation.

''And if workers vote for representation, they should be free to take all reasonable actions that they perceive to be in their own interests. A free economy in a free society requires free workers. Everyone should have the opportunity to join a union, every year. If they did, you can bet that employers would be much more civil in their behavior toward those who make their businesses work.'' from :

Great forum-post and video Andy. Thanx & Solidarity.

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

Glad you liked it. Thanks for the links, shadz :)

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 6 months ago

Solidarity & one more for you, but be warned re. some very strong images half way through :

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by JGriff99mph (507) 6 months ago

This is an empowering video, thank you for posting.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

Glad you liked it.

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[-] 5 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

We need more economic democracy and stronger unions.

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[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21407) 6 months ago

Actually, shooz, democratic ownership of the workplace takes unions a step farther. Pretty scary for people who like the status quo, I guess.

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[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21407) 6 months ago

Obviously anyone who is for workplace democracy would support unions as a compromise to what we really need which is cooperatives. Being pro-cooperative doesn't make a person against unions. Where did you get that idea? Being here, on the Occupy forum and outright criticizing two of the best economists we have, Wolff and Alperowitz, who have truly tried to explicate the structural problems of this economy and who are truly trying to outline a way forward, is just nuts to me.

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[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21407) 6 months ago

Well how about this? The more Americans support cooperatives, the more they de facto strengthen unions, because as corporations and their shareholders begin to see their own demise in the face of increasing cooperatives, unions will only gain power, if those same corporations want to exist, say, 20 years from now. Okay, I'm dreaming big, but the argument is there.

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[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21407) 6 months ago

The status quo, or going back in time, is just not good enough. We need more than unions. Yes, we need unions if that is the best we can do, but we really need much more than that. Cooperatives offer more to the 99% than unions do.

When negotiating for something it is always better to ask for more, to push the envelope. And, I don't need figures to prove what is obvious. As more and more cooperatives begin popping up, worker rights will begin to be reinstated and workers will become more powerful. It's common sense. Use your head. And, hell, I'd rather work for a cooperative than a union, wouldn't you? It's an evolving process where the worker finally gets the rights he/she deserves.

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[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21407) 6 months ago

Cooperatives are unions taken to the next level where the employees run the corporation. Cooperatives and unions do not work against each other as you'd like to suggest. If anything, cooperatives are the nirvana of unions and provide the actualization of their ultimate goal of putting power in the hands of employees.

And I really don't appreciate your comment "You don't like unions, but the only reasons you can say why, are the same ones corporations have used since the beginning." That is such a load of crap. I am a socialist. I am 100% behind workers in every possible way they can garner power against capitalists.

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[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21407) 6 months ago

Things don't happen overnight, just like things aren't black and white. Obviously, the process would take time.

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[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21407) 6 months ago

You are talking about the trigger event, not the root causes. The root causes for what has been done to the USPS happened over the course of decades where our ethos as a nation has eroded to put profit over people at any cost.

[-] 2 points by JGriff99mph (507) 6 months ago

I think those are all valid questions shooz.

The goal is a world without places like Wallyworld. The example you gave of Mondragon, imo that is simply too large, to uncontrollable.

Coops wouldnt replace WalMart as in the workers would transform Walmart into a coop, but simply slowly replace it as communities start to realize its in their interest to control the means of production and start offering their own competition. The only bargaining table is the one they all sit at with each other.

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[-] 1 points by JGriff99mph (507) 6 months ago

Here ya go:

http://www.usw.org/union/featured-projects/co-ops-resources-and-updates

Basically the USW is saying what BW just said.

Let me guess, they are wrong too?!!

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21407) 6 months ago

OMG, they even mention "Theorists such as Gar Alperovitz have argued for the importance of cooperatives in providing a nuts-and-bolts alternative to dominant methods of economic production: They offer an example of a different way of doing business that people can see and experience in their own lives."

[-] 1 points by JGriff99mph (507) 6 months ago

Only an absolute idiot could think that coops, which take workers rights even further than unions, are a bad thing to unions.

What a selfish asshole to speak such ways.

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[-] -1 points by JGriff99mph (507) 6 months ago

Yes, your Dems and Reps have decimated the entire country, there are bankrupt businesses all over.

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[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 6 months ago

I'm curious, what's your definition of "attacked?"

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[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 6 months ago

Actually, it was a sincere question. You've never actually made it clear although you do bring it up a lot. I've seen you downvoted, I've seen you ignored, I've seen people get into disputes with you over ideological differences, but I wouldn't consider those attacks inasmuch as typical forum interactions. So I was curious about your definition.

As far as a nod to the OP, I haven't had a chance to watch the clip yet, so I can't really give an opinion.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 6 months ago

How many of these would you say have been instituted in your State?

How many are in "process"?

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 6 months ago

You answer my question and I'll answer yours.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 6 months ago

Sorry Mr. Money, you interrupted me first, so really, it should be you who answers first.

since that was is far too close to your heart ( you like them all), you can respond to this one from your own community.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/16/dan-clevenger-frazier-glenn-cross_n_5161918.html?1397683235&icid=maing-grid7|htmlws-main-bb|dl4|sec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D465717

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 6 months ago

Sorry suzie, that's not how it works. You don't run our conversations, I do. And you didn't answer my question because you knew where it would lead; right back to your own concerted attacks.

And how do you "interrupt" someone on an open forum? Never mind, fergit it.

Let us know how the After Party launch goes, though. I mean, you are planning on going, right?

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[-] 1 points by JGriff99mph (507) 6 months ago

Wow, now we are even slamming threads that show communities how to actively get their stuff back on track despite the fascists in power..

Nice job as usual, whoever you are.

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[-] 2 points by JGriff99mph (507) 6 months ago

And your posts on the Kochs has all been said before, so where is our new found double standard now?

BTW I did buy Gars book, I dont need an education on Republicrats, Occupy did a good job of showing everyone that.

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[-] 5 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

Yep, Richard Wolff again. He's an excellent economist who has many great ideas as to what we should replace capitalism with (as he explains in the video I posted). He deserves much more attention.

Did you watch the video?

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[-] 5 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

If you're not going to watch the video, but instead talk about some article you've read, then I'd suggest you leave this thread and speak your mind in the comment section under the article. Also, you just present claims, but don't back them up. It would probably be a good idea to start doing that.

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[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

Great! So why did you come here where the issue is workplace democracy and democratic ownership? If you want to go on about that article, then do it over there.

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[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

You haven't raised anything here other than baseless allegations.

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[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

I was talking about this thread. I don't keep track on what you've written elsewhere. If you're not going to watch or comment on the video, then I'd suggest you go somewhere else.

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[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

Your link is the exact same comment you've posted here. I'm not going to comment on some unbacked claims about something Wolff has said somewhere that I haven't read.

The topic here is a lecture by Wolff and Alperovitz on workplace democracy and democratic ownership. Do you have anything to say about the topic?

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[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 6 months ago

"yes, yes I do"

Not so far.

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