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Forum Post: Why protesting hasn't and isn't going to Work.

Posted 1 year ago on Nov. 21, 2012, 6:29 p.m. EST by rickMoss (435)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Why protesting hasn't and isn't going to Work

In Britain as in Europe, the protests against austerity have failed. We have to try another way.

What’s happening in our world today has never happened before in the history of the human race. It's not the end of the world but it is the beginning of a new epoch. Our problems are much bigger than the rich, Wall Street, the banks and big business. For most of us this is beyond our comprehension. We've never had anything like this ever:

"Sky rocketing debt, unemployment, underemployment, deficits, government failure, Economic systems failure, Financial systems failure, Market systems failure, Monetary systems failure, Social systems failure, Environmental systems failure, Ecosystems failure, corruption, greed, chronic recessions etc…"

Protesting is not a solution to these problems. And protesting against things and people that can’t fix our problems is insane. It’s a complete waste of time. This is nothing like the civil rights movement in America or apartheid in south Africa or even the Indian independence movement led by Gandhi.

The convergence of all these problems all at once is not a coincidence or a perfect storm. Scientists have been warning us for decades. Our governments around the world are not capable of fixing this mess no matter what they say. They are lying. The only people that can help us now are scientists and engineers. They've been warning us for decades. We don't listen until it's too late or almost too late. These problems are much too complex to be solved by simple measures. Protesting and other forms of civil disobedience won't even scratch the surface. At best, they will accelerate our decline and eventual collapse.

The scientists and engineers can only help us if we meet them half way. Don't wait until it's too late. Our future and the future of children depend on it. I know it sounds extreme and unorthodox but so is this crisis.

“Be Smart!” - FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://revolution2.osixs.org )

Non U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.2” at ( http://SaveTheWorldNow.osixs.org )

"You can't Fight or Fix what you don't Understand" http://www.deathbytechnology.com

“Today, we are paying for the foolishness of our parents. Tomorrow our kids will pay for our foolishness with their lives.” -- Dan Thomas

54 Comments

54 Comments


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[-] 4 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

The problem is not capitalism
The problem is not democracy
The cause is capitalism buying democracy
Sever the link between the two
That is the only way to return the democracy to the people

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

Now this is intelligible, and furthermore makes good sense! What a relief after this:

The inability of corporations to address constitutional intent prevents any power and removes political control. They must give it to the people, who then return it as economic power to the corporation if the corporation acts constitutional.

I have to say it's the most masterful effort at obfuscation I've seen here yet - either that or the most unintelligible thought I have ever encountered, anywhere! Just try to make sense of that passage!

Thanks BD, for saving my sanity, even if you did it two weeks before the comment in question!

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

please see our OWS web site to see how to
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com
we will not "end" capitalism or the fed but this is a VERY widely supported step

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

Thanks. I couldn't make hide nor hair of the above comment.

[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

a constitutional amendment to end corporate personhood & overturn citizens united is supported by 1309 mayors, 1,500,000 petition signers, 100+ senators & congressmen, 360+ local resolutions
& 80% of polled Americans
[ all numbers & info on the site ]


dont hide your hare under your hat!

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

I'm all in favor of an amendment! But an article V convention could Really Backfire on us. Who would bell the cat?

Thanks

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

A convention is only ONE option.
An Article V convention could be a disaster - you are correct. One of the biggest supporters of a convention is ALEC yes - that ALEC


If you go to our site, you will see there are 12+ CU/CP amendment bills already in Congress - that are separate amendments that thave nothing to do with a convention.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Move to Amend - a campaign for the people to support.

Fundamental change for the better in society/environment/world will come through the education involvement and actions of The People.

[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

we are a partner of MTA - as a local OWS working group
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

MTA - people support it - be pro-active.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 1 year ago

Oh really! will it fix this also:

"Sky rocketing debt, unemployment, underemployment, deficits, government failure, Economic systems failure, Financial systems failure, Market systems failure, Monetary systems failure, Social systems failure, Environmental systems failure, Ecosystems failure, corruption, greed, chronic recessions etc…"

We have to stop with the simple minded anecdotes. They don't work!

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution!)

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Is this a weak attempt to make people feel hopeless or take their eye off the ball? Or do you genuinely believe the solution is hidden and deep just for special elites to work on. The problems are remarkably simple in some ways though the solutions can take a long long time. One big problem is that corporations have too much power and it's hurting humans and the environment. We can begin to fix that with this: http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/you-may-have-seen-this-list-of-8-practical-goals-b/ . And take a look at this short video clip of betwork TV interview to help clarify: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAhHPIuTQ5k&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 1 year ago

No it's not simple at all. The smartest people on the planet have been trying to warn the not so smart people that think everything is so simple but they never do anything about it but they still claim it's so simpe. Amazing! Then what are you waiting for. Fix it like yesterday if it's so simple. If it was so simple why didn't you warn us about so it would be fixed by now. You didn't warn about it because you didn't have a clue then and you don't now. IF you think you can fix it with that, then go ahead. I'm puting my money on the smart guys that have a real plan, a real strategy and a real vision. 8 practical goals just won't cut it.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

This is a real solution - not a kvetch
By severing the connection between capitalism / corps / the billionaires - so they cannot buy our government, virtually all of those problems are solvable.

Without such an amendment, how will you promote any new laws without stopping billions of dollars of opposition first ? What is your solution - specifically?

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

Buffet's now 30/35 milllionaire tax Cut the military by 20% Corporate minimum tax Severing the link between politicians & non-human contributors

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (20508) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

One way to seriously help accomplish this goal is with education and outreach surrounding the reality of conservative ideology. Conservative reaction to the potato famine in Ireland [c. 1840] was irrational, based on greed, and nearly brought down the crown.

Conservative ideology was highly critical of any proposed government solution to both the Great Dust Bowl and the Great Depression. Yet conservatives remain quite content with massive defense spending - which did in fact help bring an end to the depression - a fact they completely and consistently ignore when vilifying FDR social policy.

The same remains true today of President Obama's various stimulus plans, some of which began under Bush.

Thrift is a fine thing.

Naked, unabashed greed is something else entirely.

I am completely confident that if we can simply end the lies we can in fact provide solutions to practically any problem facing humanity today.

[-] 3 points by rayolite (461) 1 year ago

Why protesting hasn't and isn't going to Work.

It didn't work because there was no legal process invoked. If legal process, particularly Article V is used as basis and justification, it will work.

In Britain as in Europe, the protests against austerity have failed. We have to try another way.

This is America. We have the Constitution. See above

For most of us this is beyond our comprehension. We've never had anything like this ever:

We've been watching it develop since the october surprise. A genuine infiltration of the government by elements seeking to usurp the constitution. It began in 1867 when Lincoln was assassinated. The south was more constitutional in critical ways with secession. The north couldn't have won without massive loans and support from British military arms manufacturers. That debt took over the north after the war and began dismantling the constitutional government, or what was left of it after the war.

Protesting is not a solution to these problems. And protesting against things and people that can’t fix our problems is insane.

Not quite but close. Doing the same thing over and over in the same conditions and expecting different results is insane. The protests you referred to fit that description within what was presented to the public as strategy by OWS. Notice, it hasn't happened again, and probably won't.

It’s a complete waste of time.

It's a result of the abridging of free speech, or the meaning it needs to have. Information for survival must be shared and understood for "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" to exist.

The convergence of all these problems all at once is not a coincidence or a perfect storm. Scientists have been warning us for decades. Our governments around the world are not capable of fixing this mess no matter what they say. They are lying. The only people that can help us now are scientists and engineers. They've been warning us for decades. We don't listen until it's too late or almost too late.

Crisis management, procrastination are human traits. They can only be overcome by understanding which compels action

These problems are much too complex to be solved by simple measures. Protesting and other forms of civil disobedience won't even scratch the surface. At best, they will accelerate our decline and eventual collapse.

Yes, they are already being used to diminish the right to assemble. Law enforcement is tending to generalize the control efforts exerted on the protests as being something always needed because of extreme events that were focused upon by alternative media developed to work against the purposes of protesters. The homeless were used in this too. The NYCGA does not discuss Article V of the constitution which guarantees the rights they ask protestors to use in the streets.

The scientists and engineers can only help us if we meet them half way. Don't wait until it's too late. Our future and the future of children depend on it.

If we show our elected representatives that we know exactly what constitutional intent is, and articulate it widely, the best of them will not be able to relinquish the sacred values of those principles. They will join us with their actions because it is their duty.
To date, no action of the public has had the quality needed to compel their alliance.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

if you want to see the alliance of 1,309 mayors, 1,500,000 Americans , 12+ constitutional amendments in congress, 300+ local resolutions - go to our web site
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com

[-] 0 points by rickMoss (435) 1 year ago

I appreciate your engagement in the matter. But we are far past any good that an Article V could bring about. Maybe 20 are 30 years ago it would have done some good. But it would only be a Band-Aid approach at best. We truly live in a technological age. Our government and the way it works has to be fundamentally altered to meet the challenges we face today and in the future, where the challenges will grow exponentially, possibly beyond our control. That is what the people do understand. It is exactly why civilizations fail or destroy themselves. Part arrogance part ignorance - all bad!

Rick Moss - Engineer

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (More Power and Technology to the People!)

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

Do you know WHAT an article V convention COULD do?
Do you know who the biggest backer of an article V convention is?

[-] 1 points by rayolite (461) 1 year ago

It's always good to stop doing things you do not want to do while also doing things you need to do.

With the infiltrated federal government allowed to continue their agenda, even triage will not save our lives, our liberty and fast disappearing "pursuit of happiness".

The cause is corruption of the human evolutionary program. Abridging of free speech is what made that possible. When free speech is unabridged, we assure that we will control our adaptation to any change.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 1 year ago

That's why I beleive Direct Democracy is the only thing that can save our liberty and disappearing "pursuit of happiness". Only a fool would chose slavery over freedom. Even the people in the middle east are seeing the flaws in our so democracy and they've just aquired it. We have to upgrade our democracy to a real democracy. Most people don't even know or understand that we don't have a democracy. The United States is really just a republic passing itself off as a democracy.

Does anyone remember this in school:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands..."

Wake Up suckers!

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Direct Democracy)

[-] 2 points by rayolite (461) 1 year ago

Opinion controls democracy and information controls opinion and media controls information.

The republic is mostly in the hearts and minds of the people. The federal governments actions do not respect the principles of the republic.

"Even the people in the middle east are seeing the flaws in our so democracy".

We do not have a democracy. Even the votes are not properly counted.

Direct democracy won't do it because people do not have the information they need to meaningfully participate. Manipulation and deception dominates the last 60 years. Generations are mislead.

AFTER Article V and the restoration of free speech, yes, then direct democracy can really matter.

Now our dialogue needs to simplify into the human issues that comprise constitutional intent. This removes control from corporations and entrenched special interests that benefit from the destruction of the constitution.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

Dialogue removes control from corporations?

[-] 2 points by rayolite (461) 1 year ago

Removes control from corporations within our need for article V because corporations can't go there and the dialogue is the foundation of constitutional intent.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

So then constitutional intent removes control from corporations?

[-] 1 points by rayolite (461) 1 year ago

The inability of corporations to address constitutional intent prevents any power and removes political control. They must give it to the people, who then return it as economic power to the corporation if the corporation acts constitutional.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

Oh, very good. . . Verrrrry good!

How's this:

I am not, indeed, sure whether it is not true to say that the Milton who once seemed not unlike a seventeenth-century Shelley had not become, out of an experience ever more bitter in each year, more alien [sic] to the founder of that Jesuit sect which nothing could induce him to tolerate.

Professor Harold Laski (Essay in Freedom of Expression)

And this:

Above all, we cannot play ducks and drakes with a native battery of idioms which prescribes egregious collocations of vocables as the Basic put up with for tolerate , or put at a loss for bewilder.

Professor Lancelot Hogben (Interglossia )

[-] 1 points by rayolite (461) 1 year ago

Exactly, a corporate sect cannot speak the language of love and understanding because that is human, and corporations are only comprised of humans, they are not human. The constitution is about the principles that protect life and when humans lovingly share their understanding and agree, the corporations will sit by bewildered.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

We might yet see that Day!

I'm skeptical about an article V convention though. The corps. just might run that show. How would we stop them?

[-] 1 points by rayolite (461) 1 year ago

Preparatory Amendment for Article V is the solution.

Americans FORGET partisan politics. Embrace an understanding of constitutional intent, or using our unity to create the opportunity.

Each of us agrees to assemble in demand for our states, at state capitols, to demand congress begin to convene a convention. At the same time we are articulating our understanding of preparation for Article V. We need to be more constitutional, and amendment BEFORE Article V will make us so, then corporations and elements which have infiltrated the government do not have a chance.

While we articulate our understanding of these 3 amendments, and why they are vital, we are working to create delegates who agree to propose and work to ratify them.

Proposed preparatory amendment:

1)End the abridging of free speech

2)Campaign finance reform

3)Secure the vote

The effect of 1) alone will have a profound effect.

I've been discussing this with others here.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-protesting-hasnt-and-isnt-going-to-work/#comment-890346

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

You didn't address my question.

[-] 1 points by rayolite (461) 1 year ago

We stop the corporations with the agreement between us as citizens upon constitutional intent. Article V requires it.

"shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution,"

From my post.

"We need to be more constitutional, and amendment BEFORE Article V will make us so, then corporations and elements which have infiltrated the government do not have a chance."

They cannot bash the true intent, and they cannot discuss it. The humans of the corps must step forward alone with their deepest interests in mind.

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

AFTER Article V and the restoration of free speech????????????????
who does not have free speech?
What can an article V constitutional convention do?

[-] 2 points by rayolite (461) 1 year ago

Speech/information needed for survival must be shared. This supports the ideals behind, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Whatever it takes to assure that information needed for survival is shared AND understood.

Would you want your speciesto have any less?

Ever notice how many people are dying lately when there is no compelling reason for them to die except for someone elses behavior, which is also not reasonably rightful?

Please link to documentation of your efforts to use free speech. I'm not convinced you've really tried hard enough to know it doesn't exist as it needs to.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Were you not arrested last year for practicing your right to free speech?

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

n_o

[-] 2 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 1 year ago

I must repectfully disagree. Protesting is the only pure voice the common person has. Everything else gets filtered through political organizations, the media, and other forms of communication that tend to water-down or distort the original message in order to align with the power-elite's goals. Protesting is the closest thing to pure 1st Amendment free speech that a free people/society has. There should be more of it, not less.

[-] 4 points by rickMoss (435) 1 year ago

Nothing wrong with disagreement and debate. The problem is we've run out of time. We've been talking and debating since the beginning of the republic. That's why we find ourselves here, in dire consequences. It's time to put forth a new vision and plan. Endless talk has gotten right where we are today. Protesting is a form of frustration born out of powerlessness. But we are not powerless. In fact we are the ultimate power (99%). Our real problem is ignorance.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution!)

[-] 2 points by Kinetica (14) from Houston, TX 1 year ago

Two words: Peak oil.

[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

we can fix most of the worlds problems in a garden.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 1 year ago

Protesting only works if the people you are addressing care. Our government doesn't give a shit about us. They only care about who put them in office ........................ and I'm not talking about the voters. Remember, 94% of the time, the guy with the most money wins. Protesting falls on deaf ears.

Good post !!

[-] 2 points by rickMoss (435) 1 year ago

I'll go 1 better. Protesting will only work if the people you are protesting towards, have the intellect and the skill-set to solve your problems. Let me give you a quick test.

Do you really think politicians can solve these problems?

“Sky rocketing debt, unemployment, underemployment, deficits, government failure, Economic systems failure, Financial systems failure, Market systems failure, Monetary systems failure, Social systems failure, Environmental systems failure, Ecosystems failure, Energy systems failure, Energy depletion, rising poverty, suffering, corruption, greed, chronic recession.”

And if so, what are they waiting for. You can't solve these problems with taxes, laws, debates, constitutional amendments, patches, gimmicks, ponzi schemes, lies or horse trading. If we are smart, we will get the smart people on this planet to fix this mess. Dumb people that lie can't help you. We are the problem. It is our arrogance, pride and ignorance. It is indeed a deadly combination. Just ask the Romans.

“brace yourself. The American empire is over. And the descent is going to be horrifying.” ~ Chris hedges

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution!)

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 1 year ago

Today, protesting is akin to begging the mob not to extort you anymore. The system is broken and it's time to hit the reset button. Keeping the corporate politicians in power and preserving the present system, equates to more of the same or even worse. Possibly much worse.

I agree and understand what you're saying about the intellect and the skill-set of these politicians, but you have to give them some credit. They've kept us 'Lemmings' sitting on our hands with our eyes glazed over, for a long time now. That takes some manipulation, double talk, lying, big money, etc., but are hardly qualifications to address our problems. A look at they're track record says it all. As you say, if they wanted or knew how to fix things, we'd be well on our way.

The government didn't create itself and it can't fix itself. That job is reserved for 'The People' themselves !! After all, it IS OUR government ........... right???

When the representative body have lost the confidence of their constituents, when they have notoriously made sale of their most valuable rights, when they have assumed to themselves powers which the people never put into their hands, then indeed their continuing in office becomes dangerous to the State, and calls for an exercise of the power of dissolution. - TJ

[-] 2 points by rickMoss (435) 1 year ago

Here - Here!

[-] 1 points by elf3 (2045) 1 year ago

What about hacking - would that work? Anonymous ? I want to make a law that says hackers can legally attack corporate power or government if it gets too powerful. We should amend the constitution with right to bare hackers because the American public has no way to revolt against a dictator - we'd be fighting a machine and army with a squirt gun. But hacking seems to me to be a fair fight. I think Wiki-leaks and Anonymous might be on the side of the corporately oppressed citizenry.

[-] -1 points by rickMoss (435) 1 year ago

I think you are speaking out of frustration and desperation. We have to use our heads. Why do we insist on fighting like weaklings when we are the strongest.

1% is nothing compared to the 99%.... We are mighty. Our problem is our arrogance and ignorance. We're too lazy to learn how to fight back so we lash out like children. Protesting is a childish ineffective form of lashing out. You are smarter than this. Don't think you are - know you are.

Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://revolution2.osixs.org )

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution!)

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Bravo - an original thought on updating the right to bear arms. And going after those that abuse power.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR1 (8) 1 year ago

I believe this country is going through a similarity that also happened back during the great depression - 1929 - 1942. The masses were out of work, the wealthy were committing suicide and the country was in a mess until the start of WW II. The only difference is the people back then were proud and independent and only took government assistance because they had nothing left - not even a house - only the clothes on their backs.

So, what you are seeing today is nothing like what happened back then and people survived - they rebounded.

Have you ever seen documentaries on the people who lived during the Dust Bowl era? Those people suffered like no one in this country could ever realize and I seriously doubt that very few today could endure.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 1 year ago

Man, I agree. The people back then seem to be more durable, conscious and real. Especially the people that fought for our independence in the 17 hundreds. All we can do is hope they wake up in time.

But this is different than the great depression. Even a war can't fix this. In fact, we've been in a constant state of war for the last 15 years.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Government 2.0)

[-] -2 points by TheRazor (-329) 1 year ago

How about going to school and getting a hard science degree in molecular physics or nanotechnology PHD and making your own life instead of relying on us hard workers to save you?

Gimmee, gimmee, gimmee, but dont mke me earn it with effort.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 1 year ago

I don't think you fully understand the dynamics of the situation. We have 7 billion people on the planet and growing. Everybody can't be doctors, scientists, Nanotechnologists and PHDs. And even if they could it won't fix any of these problems:

"Sky rocketing debt, unemployment, underemployment, deficits, government failure, Economic systems failure, Financial systems failure, Market systems failure, Monetary systems failure, Social systems failure, Environmental systems failure, Ecosystems failure, corruption, greed, chronic recessions etc…"

It will only make it worse!

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 1 year ago

Best Idea I've ever seen. Dissolve it and rebuild the sucker like the bionic man. Are we can just go down with the ship.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution!)

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Yeah I can't go for that because that would mean millions dead.

Good luck in all your good efforts.