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Forum Post: Why I failed to obtain a job: Sufficient Vs. Necessary Conditions

Posted 12 months ago on April 28, 2013, 1:27 p.m. EST by cubedemon (185)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

One of the major assumptions that I had when obtaining a career was based upon what was conveyed to me by the authority figures in elementary, middle high school and even college years. The assumption is that when one graduates college with a degree it guarantees him a job. The thought process of the student is that one transitions into a job as though one moves from one grade level to the next. This is false and before I can state why I must explain the critical thinking concepts of necessary vs. sufficient conditions. A necessary condition means that in order to have B one must have A or another way of stating this is that B is dependent upon A. One example I will give is in order for a car to start one must have gasoline. This does not guarantee that the car will start. This brings us to defining what a sufficient condition is.

A sufficient condition means that if one has B then one will have A. In other words, if one has A then it is guaranteed that one will have B. An example of this is if I pour a gallon of freezing water on my wife then I will wake her up. Only some necessary conditions are sufficient conditions and only some sufficient conditions are necessary conditions.

For example, even though it is sufficient to pour a gallon on my wife to wake her up it is not necessary. I can do something else to wake her up. Gas is not the only thing that will guarantee a car will start either. As I have experienced with my wife one has to have a functioning alternator as well. Even both of these are necessary but insufficient conditions for my wife’s car to start.

Based upon this knowledge I have now I now know where I went wrong in my pursuit of a career and why I failed in America. I thought that my obtaining a degree was a sufficient condition of obtaining a job meaning that a degree guaranteed that one would obtain a job. What was conveyed was that obtaining a degree was necessary to obtaining a job but what was not conveyed was that the degree was not sufficient to obtaining a job.

Another necessary condition one would have to meet is to have excellent social and communication skills and understanding as well. Another necessary condition I do not meet somewhat is an in-depth understanding of the dynamics of the workplace and what employers desired and not desired and why. I have a more of an understanding but it is still mediocre. Before, my understanding was appallingly mediocre.

In order for me to meet these two other necessary conditions I would need help from other people in society that can sit down with me and explain these things to me in further depth. The help and understanding from others is a necessary condition for me to meet these two other necessary conditions. Because of American cultural standards and values I am not going to receive this from others.
Therefore, I am incapable of obtaining a job or career in the United States of America and I feel justified in claiming that I am too disabled to work and collecting Social Security Disability Insurance.

It isn’t my attitude or lack of confidence that caused my failure in America it is my inability to meet certain necessary conditions of the workplace and the inability of obtaining help to do so which is necessary for me to meet the necessary conditions of the workplace. My negativity stands on sound reasoning and logic and telling me to be more positive and trying to get me to have more confidence in myself and my abilities will not work with me. This is because even if confidence and positivity is a necessary condition which I doubt these two things are not sufficient conditions for one’s success in obtaining and keeping a job or career. This is why I gave up and called it quits.

40 Comments

40 Comments


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[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (21783) 12 months ago

Well, if that isn't the worst script that I have ever, ever seen.

[-] -1 points by cubedemon (185) 12 months ago

What are you trying to get at??

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (21783) 11 months ago

Have you ever been officially diagnosed with Autism?

[-] 1 points by cubedemon (185) 11 months ago

Yes, I have been officially been diagnosed with Aspergers which is an Autism Spectrum Disorder.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (21783) 11 months ago

I'm familiar with autism.

How long ago were you diagnosed?

[-] 2 points by cubedemon (185) 11 months ago

three years ago

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (21783) 11 months ago

So, when did you graduate high school?

[-] 2 points by cubedemon (185) 11 months ago
  1. College took me about twice as long the average person. I graduated college about 2006. I did have a job after college due to a matter of fortunate circumstances. Nothing I did earned me this job. This is where I had my internship at.

Suffice it to say I got fired after 3 years of employment and not long after I had to claim disability. The thing is I was stuck and did not know what to do, who to ask or how to ask. I tried to find a different job in my field but could not because each required multiple skills with each skill requiring years of experience. It took me 2-3 months to obtain the name of my position. In addition, I was told not to even let my current place of employment know I was looking for another job. They would try to fire me. How could I use them as a reference in trying to obtain a new job. I felt trapped and backed into a corner and did not know what I was supposed to do and how to determine where the bottom was at and what the job hierarchy was. This is supposed to be information technology which is supposedly a hot field. I have been on SSDI for three years. I have tried to figure the workplace out and I have asked people various questions to understand it better. I have made a bit of headway but it is minuscule. I have missing gaps to how the workplace works and how everyday American society works. All I am given is bumper sticker slogans like positivity which tell me nothing. I would need other people's intricate instruction in order for me to succeed. I will not receive it so therefore I see no possible way I can succeed.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (21783) 11 months ago

I had to claim disability

Why?

College took me about twice as long the average person

Why?

When did you graduate high school?

[-] 1 points by cubedemon (185) 11 months ago

"I had to claim disability

Why?"

This may answer your question. http://whyifailedinamerica.wordpress.com/2013/04/23/why-i-believe-i-need-to-quit-it-and-possibly-all-employment/

"College took me about twice as long the average person

Why?"

Because it was difficult for me to understand what the instructors and textbooks were conveying. Therefore, I had to disregard the instructors. I felt like details were left out so I had to work backwards to obtain these things. It was like they started with step 4 and not provides steps 1-3. Steps 1-3 was implied. I had to create workarounds to be able to successfully do the work and part of it was going to college only part time.

This has nothing to do with college but this may shed some light on some of my underlying issues. Let's say we have water that is half-way. I am asked if it is half-full or half empty. The question makes no sense to me. The glass is filled with water and air. It is also empty of emptiness. Can't a glass be filled with emptiness? Can't a glass be completely empty of emptiness and non-emptiness? How is it possible to have a glass be empty of all existence? These are the type of things that are missing for me.

Here is another issue I had. Let's say we have x/0. People will say it is undefined. By declaring it undefined do we not define it? By stating there is no answer isn't that an answer in itself? I run into these paradoxes all the time. This is one reason I had major problems with school and the workplace.

When did you graduate high school?

Mam, I graduated in 1998. I do not remember the exact month or day.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (21783) 11 months ago

It doesn't answer my question. It's called office politics.

So, it wasn't that long ago.

I got what I needed.

[-] 0 points by cubedemon (185) 11 months ago

GF, I do not follow your response. You state "that my response doesn't answer your question." At the same time you state "I got what I needed."

Did I answer your question to your satisfaction or did I not? What is called office politics?

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 12 months ago

Success isn't how much you enrich yourself, it's how much you enrich others.

[-] -3 points by cubedemon (185) 12 months ago

I do not even grasp what you're saying right here. How can one give what one does not have? If a person is homeless on the streets what does he have? Let's say I wanted to give five oranges to five different people. I would have to procure five oranges first for myself.

You're telling me to put the cart before the horse. It is like you're telling me that the baby's birth caused its conception. This is how you come across to me and you make no sense to me. Another example I have is it is like the wound of a knife caused the knife to move against the skin. How is that possible?

[-] 3 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 12 months ago

You're basing your success on economic terms only. Martin Luther King didn't make very much money, but the benefit he provided to humanity exceeded the benefit of every billionaire of the last century. Man doesn't live by bread alone.

[-] 1 points by cubedemon (185) 12 months ago

What were you trying to convey to me? It went right over my head.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 12 months ago

Stop playing games.

[-] -2 points by cubedemon (185) 12 months ago

Huh???? I am on the autism spectrum therefore I am not playing any games. I really do not understand the point to your post. I understand what MLKJr was trying to do. How is what he did and his legacy relevant here?

[-] -1 points by Nader (74) 12 months ago

I am not sure why so many people think a degree is either necessary to obtain a job or a guarantee that one will obtain a job. There are plenty of people with college degrees and unsuccessful careers just as there are plenty of people with no degrees and very successful careers.

I am sorry you received such shitty advice from authority figures throughout your life. I was always taught that an in-demand degree was the best way to a successful career and it has so far proven to be true.

And if you really are very socially awkward, there are still a lot of careers you could be successful in, with self-employment being the most obvious option. If you would rather simply live in poverty and cash your SSDI check each month, that is you prerogative.

[-] -2 points by cubedemon (185) 12 months ago

"And if you really are very socially awkward, there are still a lot of careers you could be successful in, with self-employment being the most obvious option. If you would rather simply live in poverty and cash your SSDI check each month, that is you prerogative."

Sighs In a job interview, one has to be able to sell himself. This is the mantra that has been said many times to me. Let's try to use some basic logic here. If I do not have the social skills nor the communication skills to sell myself in a job interview then how in the hell am I going to sell myself and a product while owning my own business?

I do not understand how the workplace works nor do I understand their personality test questions. What exactly in detail is the structure of the workplace? How does one determine the name of his postition to apply for? What is the algorithm for this? What are the procedures for advancement in rank? Where exactly in detail is the bottom? How does one calculate the number of years experience he has in a skill? What is the formula for this? What is the precision level? What does the glass being half empty or half full mean? Why can't a glass be filled with emptiness? Why can't a glass be empty of a and ~a? If a glass is filled with water why isn't it empty of other things including emptiness? Do you see why now I am to disabled to obtain a job?

[-] 1 points by Nader (74) 12 months ago

With the internet you can literally sit at home and run a business without ever directly interacting with another human being. The fact that you can compose those paragraphs above in a grammatically correct and intelligent way shows that you can easily interact online without interacting directly with a human.

During college I bought and sold all kinds of crap on ebay and the like. Concert tickets, beef jerky. I would even buy antlers off of hunters, chop them up into smaller pieces and then resell them as chew toys for dogs at a pretty nice profit.

Like I said though, if you would rather just collect SSDI and live in poverty, go for it. Just don't sit there and say because there are not any other options. You just aren't motivated enough to find them.

[-] 1 points by cubedemon (185) 12 months ago

"With the internet you can literally sit at home and run a business without ever directly interacting with another human being. The fact that you can compose those paragraphs above in a grammatically correct and intelligent way shows that you can easily interact online without interacting directly with a human."

Thanks for the compliments. I am flattered. I've always wondered how good my grammar was.

"During college I bought and sold all kinds of crap on ebay and the like. Concert tickets, beef jerky. I would even buy antlers off of hunters, chop them up into smaller pieces and then resell them as chew toys for dogs at a pretty nice profit."

I am down with this. May I pm you? Would you be willing to give me tips to get started.

"Like I said though, if you would rather just collect SSDI and live in poverty, go for it. Just don't sit there and say because there are not any other options. You just aren't motivated enough to find them."

If you have suggestions then I am game. Will you please take me under your tutelage? Maybe I am wrong.

[-] 1 points by Theeighthpieceuv8 (-32) from Seven Sisters, Wales 12 months ago

Have you considered the military? Perhaps an infantry division?

[-] -2 points by cubedemon (185) 12 months ago

Let's say I joined the military? How do I keep up with everyone else with the military drills in basic? How do I coordinate myself with everyone else? Let's say I misunderstand the drill sergeant. How do I make sure I understood him properly so I can do the drill correctly? When there is a lot of noise around me when someone speaks to me it comes across like they're speaking like Charlie Brown's Parents like wah wah wah. Why is this? How would I be able to effectively serve in the military if this happens to me a lot and I do not know how to coordinate myself with the rest of my unit?

[-] 0 points by Theeighthpieceuv8 (-32) from Seven Sisters, Wales 12 months ago

You don't have to understand their words; it's do or die. Generally speaking, to communicate, they get in your face and scream at the top of their lungs - feign ignorance and they will stomp your ass into the tarmac. It's quite effective at curing poor social and communication skills.

[-] -3 points by cubedemon (185) 12 months ago

Can you prove this? Can you tell me how this works step by step? Are you implying that I am feigning ignorance here because if you imply that I am well I can assure you that I am most certainly not. How would I be expected to understand them if they're in my face and screaming? How is one supposed to comply with them without understanding what they're saying?

[-] 1 points by Theeighthpieceuv8 (-32) from Seven Sisters, Wales 11 months ago

Well theoretically someone like you would receive proper care, be diagnosed, and never attempt to enter the military. But that is not always the case.

[-] -1 points by Narley (-634) 12 months ago

People learn by example and experience. Using you military example. You would watch others, find someone who will assist you and get yelled a lot by the drill instructor. He will continue to yell at you until you get it right. Success in the military is based on doing what your told. Understanding it doesn’t matter. I guess it’s a lot like life in general.

[-] -3 points by cubedemon (185) 12 months ago

What if one doesn't understand what he is being told? For example, let's say I am told to put a pot of water on the opposite side of the stove? Let's say it is on the (right, front). Well the back is the opposite of the front and the left is the opposite side of the right. What would be the axis that one is supposed to go by? Is it the x-axis or the y-axis?

[-] 0 points by Narley (-634) 12 months ago

You seem overly concerned with messing up or making a mistake. Everybody screws up. I could write a book on how to screw up. Using your pot moving example. Just move it where you think it should go. If it’s really important where the pot is placed, then ask or clarify where to move it.

I assume you made it through school. You learned to talk, write and communicate. You learned to use a computer and how to type. So you survived so far. I think you’re making too big a deal of making a mistake.

[-] -2 points by cubedemon (185) 12 months ago

"Just move it where you think it should go" The problem is that I don't know how to do that. I could ask or clarify. Herein lies the issue. I'm having to ask and clarify a lot. Because of my aspergers, I am having to ask a lot of questions at a clip. Well if I am making a big deal of making a mistake then why do people around me become upset when I do especially when in their mind I shouldn't have made it. To them, it was obvious and common sense.

From my perspective, American society demands perfection. I know what people state about making mistakes. You're not the first one to tell me this. People's actions demonstrate otherwise from they say.

Can one ever have perfect grammar? This is what employers demand. A person and I can proofread a cover letter and a resume five times and there still could be grammar mistakes on both of these documents. The English language has many rules and many exceptions to these rules. How can one comply with the employer's demands of perfect grammar?

If there are 1,000 rules in grammar what is the probability that I will make a mistake and what is the probability that one won't catch the mistake. What if each rule has 25-35 exceptions to them. This means assuming the figure is accurate we have 25,000-35,000 rules one has to follow.

For each rule there is only one way to correctly follow the rule. All other ways, x, are wrong. What is the amount of ways that one can get each rule wrong? What is the value for x? How can one prevent every single occurrence?

[-] 0 points by Narley (-634) 12 months ago

Wow, You are hard on yourself. As for applying for a job. I’m a retired middle manager. I’ve hired hundreds of people in my career. Also fired a few.

Employers do not look for perfection. Employers look for a good job fit. Meaning the right person for the job. If the job your applying for means working with the public then a friendly personality and neat appearance is important. If you’re a computer programmer they are interested in how well you can write code. If you’re applying for a manual labor job they are interested physical ability to do the job. In none of the above examples do they care how well you follow the rules of grammar or otherwise how perfect you are.

So, the trick in a job interview is to fit the job. They don’t care about your liberal arts education if you’re driving a truck.

I’ll use myself as an example. I’m dyslexic. I’ve had a learning disability my whole life. It really shows up when writing. Like this post. I had to read and reread, very slowly, it a number of times to correct my mistakes. But I learned how to deal with it and had a career with a six figure income; and retired early. My point is don’t be afraid and don’t be ashamed. Almost everyone has some problem they have to overcome.

Also, as an afterthought. People don’t hired for jobs for all kinds of reasons. Their too old, too young, too educated, not educated enough, dress too well for the interview, dress too poorly for the interview and so on. Not getting a job often has nothing to do with individual.

[-] -1 points by cubedemon (185) 12 months ago

I sent this to one of my relatives a while back.

I remember in elementary school and middle school periodically I had to memorize a certain amount of vocabulary words in a week. This is what I did to pass the quizzes. First, I gave myself a review day. This meant all words had to be memorized by this day which was the day before the test. If I had to memorize the words by Friday then I made sure I memorized and looked over all of the words by Thursday. Let's say I had 10 words. I had 3 days to look over them and memorize them.

I calculated I had to memorize 3.3 words per day. There was no such thing as a third of a word to memorize. Therefore, I had to break this down further. In order to reach my goal, I decided to either round down to 3 or round up to 4. If I did 3 words per day I would've memorize 9 by the time Wednesday was out leading me with one word left to memorize. I would have to memorize 3 words from monday-wednesday, one word on Thursday and review as well on Thursday. I would memorize 10 after Wednesday was over If I rounded up to 4. I would have to memorize 4 words on Monday, 4 words on Tuesday, 2 words on Wednesday and review on Thursday. I had two possible solutions. R means review

A. 3-3-3-1-R solution B. 4-4-2-R solution

Both solutions were equally viable but if I wanted extra time on Wednesday to watch Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles I did the B solution. I had to incorporate this with other homework as well. This in a nutshell is how I think.

This is where I ran into problems in trying to obtain a job. The first step in trying to solve a problem is to be able to identify the problem and the second is to analyze the problem. http://www.pitt.edu/~groups/probsolv.html I defined the problem as obtaining an Information Technology job in programming. I realized I was missing data. This was the data I was missing:

A. name of my position B. requirements to obtain said position C. hierarchy of the job positions D. how to determine how much one is worth E. requirements for moving up in rank for each position F. how to determine how much taxes to take off G. where the leaf nodes are in this hierarchy meaning where is the bottom.

To solve a, I tried a few keywords like programmer, etc. I lacked a name and it took about 2 months for me to obtain a name. It was easy to see the requirements to obtain said positions but the issue I encountered was that each job required multiple skills and each skill required years of experience. Each skill I had did not transfer that well to other IT jobs.

I tried to look for the hierarchy of the job positions and requirements to move up in rank but alas nothing was stated on their websites. There was no hierarchy or any rubric whatsoever. I lacked what the leaf nodes or where the bottom was at. I still do. On the websites they sold their products and they talked about concepts and spoke in a conceptual way. There are no specifics I can tell whatsoever in the way they speak.

In order for one to determine how much he or she is worth in the marketplace he would have he would have to data on what a good chunk of the people make for that position and do a statistical analysis. He would have to obtain salaries and makes sure the data he obtains was reliable and valid. I would obtain what year they graduated college from and what college they graduated from. Once the statistical analysis is done he or she has to make sure there is a wide diversity spread. Once the data is accurate and good enough the data has to be arranged from lowest to highest in spreadsheet software package like excel. Since employers want a range when you quote them a salary I would bring the four lowest numbers on this analysis and quote a range involving these four numbers. This is because I was at the bottom.

In TSI (Technical Systems Integrators), I did not know what they meant by taking taxes off so I had them take off none. If I have to fill this out need more data to go on as to determining how much to take off and what it inherently means.

For one to be able to take initiative, unless it is blatantly obvious like picking up some trash I would need more data as to what my boundaries are. Am I required to be like Grace Hopper? What is the extent to this? What are my boundaries?

Employers require an employee to be on time for their shifts every time. How does an employee account for and determine all variables that could cause problems of him or her getting to the work environment on time? If there are so many possibilities that could happen how would he be able to account for all possibilities? I was able to come up with a solution for vocabulary words and definitions. How does one meet a standard that would require data such as this? If one can't obtain the data then why is the employee always expected to show up on time 100% of the time for their entire employment?

Everyone else is somehow able to obtain all of this and quickly. How do they do this? These are the inherent issues I have encountered. How does one set a career goal without the data? Metaphorically, If one does not understand the syntax and the logic behind a programming language then how can he debug programming code? If anyone asks me what are my goals for my career and for my life I can't answer the question because I have insufficient data to provide a meaningful answer like multivac and all of its successors stated in "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov.

[-] 3 points by gsw (2727) 12 months ago

To get the job you better know someone at the workplace. Maybe you should see if you even like the job, instead of investing time and money in classes, see if you could volunteer or intern, or shadow the position for a day, and spring some of your questions.

Also, there's a saying which goes something like find something you love to do. Hpoefully it's legal and somomeone values enough to pay for it. I would say care taking a rich elderly person might be a good position for a young person without dependents.

Maybe trash, waste disposal seems to pay well.

Agriculture is in demand.

Programming has many variables apparently.

Good effort explaining the issues, many people have "limitations". Look at your gifts. Asperger persons historically have contributed much. Maybe you could be an aspergers scientist, researcher, writer,

Interesting post and reactions.

Also, capitalize on your goal setting, and breaking tasks down abilities. Take small steps towards goals.

[-] 0 points by cubedemon (185) 12 months ago

"see if you could volunteer or intern, or shadow the position for a day, and spring some of your questions."

Is this the leaf node or the bottom of the workplace hierarchy? Who would I talk to and what would I say?

How are you able to determine what is in demand and what is not? How do you determine what the accurate sources are?

Let's say I decide to go into waste disposal. How would I tailor my resume to waste disposal? What are the algorithmic detailed instructions?

[-] 1 points by gsw (2727) 12 months ago

[ "see if you could volunteer or intern, or shadow the position for a day, and spring some of your questions." Is this the leaf node or the bottom of the workplace hierarchy? Who would I talk to and what would I say?

I usually found it good to work from ground up, even menial job to get some skills, experience, recommendation. Luck plays a big role too.

I've had lots of jobs from field worker, landscaper, car sales, roofer, sub-janitor, media-lab through school getting my masters in state colleges, then you still gotta know someone, move around and get lucky, and kiss ass figuratively and work till your hands bleed. Then you gotta persevere another 25 years, still upgrading your skills and try to be team player. Then put in another 10 and hope your field has a pension. worked for me so might work for Anyone, cause sounds like I have similar aptitude.

"How are you able to determine what is in demand and what is not? How do you determine what the accurate sources are?"

Go to community college talk to counselor, medical, nursing sounds good.

Let's say I decide to go into waste disposal. How would I tailor my resume to waste disposal? What are the algorithmic detailed instructions?

I bought a book on resume writing and followed the format, action words, etc. they wanna know what your success and strengths are, and that you are willing and able, and references.

Volunteer work looks good too. If you can pass background and interested, tutor a school kid after school, there's programs. You can make connections with the volunteers, get a recommendation.

I don't think theres any guarantees in this. Luck to be at right place at right time.

Elder care is good I think. Nursing home may charge $6000 a month. Even running one, an immigrant lady had a big home with a view, and had lots of seniors living there. She did pretty good at that.

[-] 0 points by Narley (-634) 12 months ago

You’ve overwhelmed me. Too much data to process and respond to. About the only thing I can say is you use whatever data you have available to make a decision. No one ever has ALL the information for decision making. Often decision making is just a best guess based on what you know at the moment.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 12 months ago

Now you're being played.

[-] 1 points by cubedemon (185) 12 months ago

Basically, you believe I am faking it then. Well, I can assure you I am not.

[-] 0 points by Narley (-634) 12 months ago

Yea, I think so too.