Forum Post: Why do people solely discuss American politics on a site which is the hub for a non-political international protest?
Posted 11 years ago on March 5, 2013, 5:08 a.m. EST by clearsimpletruths
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Why do people solely discuss American politics on a site which is the hub for a non-political international protest?
This is strange indeed. We should be discussing Occupy, not American politics. Could this be the reason why international occupiers are not interested in this forum?
We should take a week to discuss Occupy initiatives instead of politics, and we should focus on international initiatives to get the discussion out of the American closet.
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No, they are not. The best, and only real solutions, are entirely apolitical. The current political framework obliges representatives. To create a better world it's clear that the people will have to become much more involved, to the point where there is no longer a need for representatives. This idea that the people can create the better world for themselves, by themselves, without the need for politicians is the most powerful idea of Occupy. We don't have to wait for politicians, we can commence creating that better world right now.
We shouldn't make any of those demands. We shouldn't make any demands. We should just do. Playing into politics is an Occupy killer. Demands don't work because the system is corrupt beyond being responsive. You're kidding yourself if you think there's a political party that will remove money from politics. They can't. They are too corrupted.
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That's almost cute. You should write Hallmark cards.
But seriously, they are not like us. When we elect people to be our representatives they become politicians which means they have more decisional power than the average joe. This makes them targets for those who have money and wish to corrupt the system to their advantage. If political power is not concentrated in the hands of a few, then it becomes much harder, if not impossible, to corrupt the system.
The power that we already have is to take political power back into our hands by doing without representatives. I'm not happy with a vote once every 4 years. That does not give me much say in politics, especially when that vote is tricked like it was for Mr. Bush.
You would strip us of political power so we don't interfere with inherited power?
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They depend to some extent on us being stupid.
I think you both have valid points. In one regard, they are just people. In other regards, they only get a job performance review once every four years.
You should take an online civics class or something.
Maybe this explain 2010?
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Who would have thought that creating pledges was so effective.
OWS is not apolitical. It seeks to work outside the current political system. That is not apolitical, that is revolutionary. Here is the definition of apolitical:
No need to write back. I'm just setting the record straight here. I wish everyone would stop feeding you, troll that you are.
We could be accurately described as being an apolitical group that wants revolutionary change
~Odin~
Good comment.
True indeed. Good argument. I should have rather said that Occupy is not interested in the current political frameworks used to run countries, and it not interested in participating with them to better the world, but, instead, is interested in working outside that system to create a revolution based on anarchy. You're quite right. Thanks for the rectification.
Specious and cunning 'Tr@shy' & bw has you cold, as your anti-OWS sophistry is fully exposed right there with your "revolution based on anarchy" !!! Calculated and propagandist 'trigger words', much ?!! And so much for your ''PHD'' too - as who would capitalise that who really had one, lol ?!
Your arrogance, conceit, hubris, and narcissism are clear for all those with eyes to see. You're working hard at subverting and usurping this forum but will be resisted despite all your attempts to do so.I could expand and add my corroborating links to your own comments etc. but I'm rather busy and just passing through right now but 'Jean, John, Josh' - what's your connection to 'Bard College'? LOL !
verum ex absurdo ...
LOL
Hammer
Nail
Smack on the head.
You're close, but still off, and I think you know that. It's a good summary of my comment except for the "revolution based on anarchy." LOL. You still have a gripe with the anarchists who wouldn't let you in at the beginning, huh? No, this movement seeks true democracy, hence the general assemblies.
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Occupy is not a private organization in which ones needs to be let in. It's an open protest in which anyone can participate.
Yes, exactly. That's why I said it was a revolution based on anarchy. General assemblies are designed to remove hierarchy by giving everyone an equal voice, hence the term anarchy.
Well why are you here talking about it why aren't you just doing?
You do know that to attempt to influence the actions of others is politics don't you?
Well said Zen.
The two party system is like a ladder if you knock out one of the legs the whole thing will fall, in other words kill the GOP.
If you apply pressure to the top of a ladder trying to bring it down you only make it stronger.
You might not see the metaphor right away, (not you Zen, but those reading) but people will rally around to some extent if OWS were to ever actually threaten the Constitution I think there would be huge push back from average people.
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OWS is at least in part about insisting that the average person be heard and have our voice count.
It is ran, for lack of a better word, by people who listen to no one, at least no one here on the forum, maybe there is something special about the people in NYC and they feel they have all the answers they are just looking for bodies, well I got tired of being a body for the D's they don't care what you have to say either.
I had hoped that with the technology of the internet we could develop ideals and position through the fire of honest debate, perhaps a forum exposed to trolls is simply not a place for just work.
big media could be banned from reporting political news
This one is obvious.
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This one really pisses me off, because we DO!!!
You should read threads other than your own.
If you can push your ego aside for just a moment.
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My threads are the only apolitical threads here! All the others are focused primarily on American politics which has nothing to do with Occupy.
As soon as you understand that being staunchly apolitical is actually a political position, we can move on.
Other than that, it's just another name for apathy.
.
I take offense to that statement. Though I understand what you say because this forum has little of Occupy spirited things being discussed. Simplicity is a certain feature to the truth that shall remain and all this nonsense shall too pass with the rest of which the future has no need. In solidarity Worldwide Freedom already is across time and space delivered I am WE...
berniky is a 3 syllable name which means nothing except it is a name
Yes, I can see the light now. You are Occupy's true savior. Please, show us the way.
I am showing the way. Every day. I work hard at it. That's why I generally have the best written comments and postings on this board. That's also why I'm one of the few that takes the time to formulate proper arguments.
You do work hard. Very hard. You have to. It pays your rent. I understand completely.
I work hard because I believe in my ideas. If you had ideas you believed in, you would also take extra time to write well and support your ideas with strong arguments. It's as simple as that.
Oh, I do. But, right now, you are so fascinating. I am just amazed at what a stand up, honest to the core individual that you really are. Truly.
People on here do not "solely discuss American politics," rather we share news, and information that pertains to our revolution
Some of that news may fall within the political arena, but that does not mean that we all believe the answers are to be found through that rotten system
In the almost 18 months that i have been here, with the exception of my one thread implying that the republicans are in disarray with their agenda, which I used as a barometer to our success...you would be hard-pressed to find a ''political' (in terms of connecting with a political party) comment or thread from me
Both shadz66, and I found it odd that you consider yourself a 'Good Occupier, ' but do not believe that protesting the big banks is a good idea..........am i closing in?
That and the fact that i have never heard you bash away at the the big bankers, despite your great wrting ability speaks volumes to me
All this while most of us seethe with contempt for the bastards at what they have done to this country
Rather you spend most of your time on here pitting different facets of Occupy against each other in an extremely sly way
I do realize that your nefarious, real agenda can only be accomplished though by intermittently putting up good threads and comments to gain credibility
~Odin~
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Of course we have to be non-political
Of course we need to use consensus
how else will we succeed in getting done exactly what
david & charlie want done?
The aim was to saddle a real, grassroots movement of dissatisfaction with a self defeating structure.
More Americans?
Change America first since it is the dominant power?
Americans tend to know American politics best and many people here are Americans and American expatriates. Wherever two or more people gather, there goes politics -- there is no way around that. There are many Americans who are simply ignorant of the rest of the world and are not interested. Some Americans are just parochial.
I suspect that for some though the narcissism had originated in the mind-space dominance of the U.S. I had tried looking at other countries' websites before and what I found was that they talked incessantly about American movies, American fashions, American follies, American culture, American technologies, and of course most of all American politics. If one looks out and discovers that it seems to be a mirror palace out there, one soon asks why one should even spend the effort to overcome the linguistic and cultural barriers.
When trying to come to grips with a particular country, it is very disorienting due to the lack of well-understood contexts about it. There are many different historical, cultural, tribal, ethnic, political, and religious contexts that need to be mastered to be able to talk intelligently about any country and many Americans simply do not have the drive, capability, or time to do so. Furthermore, we largely become American nationalists once we cross our national borders and we do not really want to supplant our U.S. Department of State. Some countries accused the U.S. of meddling in their domestic affairs and some of them extended their murderous ways far beyond their national borders. Since there is no real guarantee of the freedom of conscience and speech at the international level (the U.N. human rights protocols are made into jokes by many nation-states), we default to exercising our rights under the U.S. Constitution. It may sideswipe some countries but I think that they understand (from their coverage of American follies) that the U.S. does tolerate idiots, fools, and outrages so that accorded us big mouths some protection under the U.S. umbrella.
My hope is that people from other countries can find a model here for how a domestic U.S. resistance movement tries to make progress. Every country has its idiosyncrasies so the U.S. model is not highly portable so caveat emptor. I will try to become more internationally minded because you had brought up a very valid point. Perhaps you can create a thread that you want to discuss. I myself am somewhat concerned about what would happen with the U.S. pivoting towards Asia and there are certainly trouble spots there developing that perhaps peoples' movements can help mitigate.
The model for a new world will not come from US. It will come from another country, most likely one in Europe. Very probably Iceland.
America is no longer on the table of vision, the next big thing, a paradigm shift, amazing ideas, etc... Back in the day america was king of this. We can think of the Women's Liberation, the Sexual Revolution, The fight for the rights of black Americans and against racism in general, etc... Nowadays, America is following behind. Gay marriage is already legal in many countries, but people still fight against it in America with the stupidest religious arguments you couldn't even imagine. America is behind in the fight for the environment. The list goes on and on.
Amen!!!
Great idea,
Think Global, act local.
There's so much you've ignored in your never ending attempts to smear this forum..
'Cause most of us are US citizens and posters like thrassy chased off many or the international posters with his bots and puppets, a long time ago.
Sad really, that puppeteers still come around and do the same.
The clear and simple truth is that there is no greater good anyone can do for the world than removing a Republican from Public Office.
I wish it were that simple. The sad fact is both parties are corrupt.
The sad fact is that there are many corrupt people in the world everywhere, doesn't change the fact that removing Republicans from Public Office is essential to making things better.
An unbiased person wouldn't bother to look at their party affiliation, they would just look at their affiliation with corruption.
So if I honestly cut taxes for rich people and raise them on poor you're cool with that?
Just so long as I don't take any payoffs myself?
If I strip gays and women of their rights but I do it honestly you're cool with that?
I am very biased against Republicans as I have been watching politics for a very long time and am very familiar with their policies.
It is useless to protest if you take no real action when and where you can.
If you cannot see the difference between the D's and the R's you are blind as shit, no way around that, likewise if you can't see the evil that the GOP does then you are no use to the 99% moving forward.
The inability to see makes one a poor leader.
OWS has had a lot of trouble seeing the difference and it's influence has waned accordingly, if it were to take the powerful message the that the rich are too damn rich into the battlefield to defeat Republicans it could be part of a great sea change in this country.
As long as OWS chooses to spend it's time attacking those working to better the lives of the 99% while ignoring the true evil in this country all for the benefit of the most political of political parties The Greens well it will be shunned by all who truly want change.
Spreading the Greens political lie that both parties are basically the same will be the end of OWS and if that's all it has to say, well good riddance to another lair on the political stage.
You're a political racist. Judging the individual on the actions of the group he belongs to.
Unlike race people can choose to leave a group or political party if one chooses to be a Republican then that means you support them and their leadership which means I oppose you.
To compare race to political party show a remarkable lack of understanding of race relations in this country.
Racism, sexism, and all of the other groupisms based on hate towards any individual based on the group they belong to is wrong. The individuals ability to leave that group does not justify the hate directed at them.
What groupism shows is a person who has been conditioned to hate, to subjugate an entire group and make them sub standard. To assume without thought or evidence every action they take is automatically wrong.
"Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with hatred, contempt, and intolerance on the basis of a person's race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, religion, language, socioeconomic status, or other status."
"Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr. described bigotry in the following quotation: "The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract."
"Discrimination is the prejudicial or distinguishing treatment of an individual based on their actual or perceived membership in a certain group or category, such as their race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, religion, age, disability, skin color, ethnicity, or other characteristics"
That he doesn't view his own form of bigotry as equal to bigotry when it involves race shows a remarkable lack of understanding of the history of bigotry and prejudice in this country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prejudice
Edit-6 minutes and already one downvote! There's at least one fan of bigotry amongst us.
Here's an upvote against bigotry.
LOL! I shall upvote your upvote in solidarity!
Oh I think about Republicans quit a bit so no problem there.
You must be talking about someone else, indeed given the importance of the issues before us it is foolish not to think about what Republicans do and want to do and then VOTE
That's the problem, if you think about Republicans all the time, and they think about Democrats all the time, neither group looks at their own corruption.
First it's a problem to hate Republicans without thinking, To assume without thought or evidence every action they take is automatically wrong.
Then when I tell you that I do think about them you use that as an attack, it seems you are more interested in attacking anybody who attacks Republicans rather that actually worried about corruption or you would not present such a corrupt argument, you are a very corrupt person yourself maybe that's why you think about that all the time.
The reason your argument is so corrupt is because you are not being honest, see how hard it is to resist corruption when you have a goal? You have one but you won't be honest about it so you present corrupt arguments instead.
You should work for moveon.org.
Like moveon.org and all who wish to make American a better place I work to defeat Republicans, you should too, but only if you want to tear down the current system geared toward the rich and build a new one, if you like things the way they are, then do what's always been done and treat Republicans like the belong at the table.
Knowing that Repubilcans are the party for the rich people and nothing eles i thought that OWS repersented a golden moment when American might be told the truth abouth the Repubilcan Party but OWS has decided to work more for the Greens than for the country and so has started telling lies or ignoring important data, which amounts to the same thing, as jr is here, he tells the Green lie that there is no real difference because his goal is to build a political party not change American the Greens just want to hear themself talk and make like they're big shots, I'm more interested in changing American and that starts with killing the GOP.
The republicans don't belong at the table. The democrats don't belong at the table. The greens don't belong at the table. The people belong at the table.
Viva anarchy!
Who said "all the time" you are clearly more worried about saving people from corruption rather than improving public policy are you a preacher are you looking to save souls or save American from the destruction that will surly be brought on by our extreme wealth inequality.
I think that people who focus on "corruption" rather than policy are idiots and are going to fall into "they're all the same" trap every time, because guess what folks are folks some folks do bad things you accuse me of general-ism and yet you are the guilty one.
If one looks at public policy the evil that is the Republican Party is clear you seem more interested in protecting Republicans than changing the Nation.
I suspect you are that most political of animals i suspect you are a Green the Greens are the most political, political party of all time they're only concern is "growing their party" they care nothing at all for America.
I despise all political parties. They're the street gangs of politics.
You are also very intellectually dishonest..
-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4310) from Sun City, CA 22 hours ago Racism, sexism, and all of the other groupisms based on hate towards any individual based on the group they belong to is wrong. The individuals ability to leave that group does not justify the hate directed at them. What groupism shows is a person who has been conditioned to hate, to subjugate an entire group and make them sub standard. To assume without thought or evidence every action they take is automatically wrong. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink
Hating the structure of political parties isn't groupism. I don't hate anyone because they're a Democrat or Republican.
I hate the idea of people giving up their power to a small group in order to further the goals of the few while giving the many the false impression that their actions are for the group.
Your arguments have twisted themselves into a pretzel.
You may very well just be an angry confused person who truly wants to strike out at the world, but I have no interest in your temper tantrum, I want to save America from the destruction that will come from the wealth inequality having studied this problem a very long time. I have no doubt that that most effective if indeed perhaps the only way forward is to destroy the Republican Party. They fight for the rich tooth and nail and Republicans will resist any change that reduces wealth inequality the Democrats seem quit open to the prospect of reducing wealth inequality. To come here or anywhere and say otherwise simply delays any good action from happening and allows the 1% and their footmen the Republicans to continue the current system.
No one does more harm to the cause of OWS than those that attack the Dems, not even the Republicans or TEA Party they are honest enemies the "tear down the system" crowd reduces OWS numbers daily.
The problem is deeper than policies. We must attack and change the framework upon which these policies are implemented, and that is the representative republic itself. The fact that a president is even able to implement bad policies without much say from the public is the problem. You can work really hard to stop bad policies, but politicians will just turn around and implement other ones. It's time for anarchy. The system is broken beyond repair. We all know it. Enough with this lame tinkering to try and patch it up. Let's tear it down.
So are you talking stock up on shotgun shells and guard the door anarchy?
I oppose a Constitutional Convention because I would not trust the outcome.
Anarchy is not about shotgun shells, guards, or other types of violence. Anarchy is about people working together to build communities and govern themselves.
So you are magical? You will remove greed from the hearts of men? How can you be sure NO ONE will go for the shotgun shells and if someone does, then what, others do the same or bend a knee that's how it's always been because it is in our nature. Only through forming a government can we insure peace and the one we have comes from a pretty good Constitution and I would not trust what would come if we torn that up. I don't really see much support for your position either I do see a lot of support for addressing the wealth problem in American when OWS talks about that it's support grows when it talks about attacking Obama it shrinks.
We've had Democrats in control of both houses of Congress and the White House and nothing was much different. You're making a good start, but D or R there isn't much difference when it comes to corruption.
So to you passing laws that say the state can stick stuff into your privates and opposing such laws are pretty much the same thing?
Policy matters even more than corruption, I don't vote thinking I'm electing a saint, but the policy difference between the two parties is huge and if you don't know the difference between supporting minimum wage increase and opposing it then it's you that needs to do some more studying of things including your own level of corruption there is intellectual corruption too you know.
I agree if your only choice was bad policy from R or dishonest candidate from D, but it doesn't have to be. A better course of action might be to stop accepting whomever a party places on the ballot. Start recruiting good people, new people, to run.
Destroy the Republican party tomorrow, fine. It won't change the influence of Wall Street in government in the least.
"Funded by the same corporate interests, these two parties are sometimes referred to as "Republicrats" because they resemble two wings of a single party whose policies benefit large corporations and the super rich against the interests of the vast majority (despite holding very different positions on cultural issues in which corporations have little or no interests)."...from Occucard # 15 Republicrats
BTW...you were't named after the "Swedish Nightingale," were you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenny_Lind
~Odin~
Odin we all know where you stand on OWS doing anything, you oppose it in case someone out there don't know, you're a con troll so who cares what you say?
Try to get in touch with the reality of what OWS is about factsy. Just because I oppose the repub/dem duopoly does not make me, or anyone else who agrees, a "con troll."
Odin
I think he meant you constantly shut down ideas of action which are presented to Occupy. Like edemocracy, or the creation of anarcho-syndicalist companies. I don't think you're a con troll at all, but I wonder about your commitment to Occupy. All I know for sure is that the community banned you on many occasions. I don't agree with factsrfun at all, but he never got banned by Occupy. Surely, that must mean something.
I got baited - took the bait - and took the consequences at a time when this forum was lost. It is now much more representative of what OWS is about.
~Odin~
I don't know what happened exactly. All I know is the moderators banned you on many occasions and you created sock puppet after sock puppet to evade them. If they had reverted their decision, they would have given you your old "Odin" account back. Sadly, you must always sign that username at the bottom of your posts done with sock puppets. That's because you're still exiled from the community.
You suffered the same fate as I. A few people on the forum decided that you were a troll because you didn't agree with their ideas. It happens a lot here. Few people debate in honest ways. Most just use name calling instead of arguments. When they disagree, call them a troll the motto goes.
The way I was labeled a troll is quite funny actually. A fun trip back to memory lane. I didn't attack a user like you did, nor did I use name calling or other logical fallacy. I simply expressed an idea.
It all started with this posting in which the user an0n accused me of being a pysops troll because I claimed Occupy was started with anarchy. Back in those days, no one knew anything about the roots of Occupy here except me. I paid dearly for that! lol.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/save-your-mind-from-infiltration-ignore-the-psyops/
He's accusing me of attacking the republic with anarchy, while he is the good guy trying to save it. Ironic no? Of course, he doesn't understand what anarchy is. In his mind it equates terrorism. Kind of hard to make a revolution which such people. We want to bring the republic down and replace it with anarchy, they want to keep the republic intact.
He got angry because I was talking about anarcho-syndicalism in threads like these:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-and-how-ows-must-change-or-onto-anarcho-syndic/
Back then, Occupy never used the word anarchy. It was frowned up. This was a decision made in one of the early general assemblies. They wanted to hide the anarchist roots as long as possible because they feared people would associate it with violence and chaos, and rightly so! When I started mentioning anarchy and David Graeber, the mods went nuts! Now they publish articles by Graeber right here. It's so funny.
Talking about memory lane I got a question for you.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-question-for-the-anarchist-on-the-site-are-we-ta/
Bullshit:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/climate-change-deniers-and-third-party-supporters-/#comment-798531
Will you be joing the Green Par.....errr.... I mean OWS anytime soon? ;-)
~Odin~
Blaming Obama for stuff Bush did does:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/odin-shows-his-true-partisan-self/
Yes, I remember that thread that you put up, and you feel justified in your assault on me. Once again factsy, get a grip of yourself
~Odin~
Wow! I hadn't seen that. Odin could be a con troll after all. I have to hand it to him, that's some intense trolling. I never would have guessed it without this hard evidence.
Please man, let's not propagate more conspiracy theories on this forum. Odin is the last person who would be a conservative on this forum.
You're just looking in the wrong place.
It can make a World of difference.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-michigan-matters/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/repelicants-dont-want-no-stinkni-democracy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/michigan-gop-not-finished-with-tyranny-yet/
It wasn't like this under Granholm.
Yah let's replace them with people who also vote for war and give trillions to private banks.
The truth is, there is no greater good than removing all frauds from public office that vote for wars based on lies while giving trillions to private banks that fuck over the economy and create a class system where the 1% have an overwhelming majority of the wealth.
You are a perfect example of my recent post called Like Nationalism, The 2 Party System is a Plague.
You give a pass for all the wrong doings of your own party simply based on your hatred for the opposing party. While the republicans deserve your hatred, giving the democrats a free pass is bullshit. They have played a supporting role in 12 years of war and a long history of giving trillions of dollars to private banks.
Please justify TARP, AUMF, the Patriot Act, the ongoing drone wars, and monetary policy. You can't. Both parties have colluded against America in the name of corporate enterprise and capitalism.
From my post The 2 Party System is a Plague
Any time I ever try to discuss issues with a hardcore republican, it is impossible. It immediately turns into them not giving a fuck about the issue and instead telling me how terrible the democrats are and how it's all their fault.
Any time I ever try to discuss issues with a hardcore democrat it is impossible. It immediately turns into them not giving a fuck about the issue and instead telling me how terrible the republicans are and how it's all their fault.
They make excuses for the wrongdoings of their own party based on their hatred for the other. This style of thinking lacks logic, and issues where there is bipartisan support, like war during the plague of nationalism, go unnoticed and on and on.
For anyone questioning the system it has almost become a spectator sport, like watching rivals at a football game. They team up against anyone who questions capitalism. As is their history since the early 1900's where the one of many issues, outside of war, where there was bipartisan support was chasing out the communists and socialist worker movements who questioned harsh realities of capitalism. The few who have a public agenda never garner any support for their legislation, like public option health care or monetary reform. They are left in the dust from the plague of the 2 party system that is dependent on corporate funding. Sold out to a corporate agenda over the needs of the public.
Now we have 12 years of war and counting that is now branching out to put drone bases in Africa. 6 countries bombed over this time period. Upwards to a million civilians killed. 2010 saw it's highest civilian death rate in Afghanistan. Privatized military forces called private security contractors making the war more costly and capitalistic than it already was. Giving trillions of dollars to private banks instead of putting funding toward the benefit of the public.
This is indeed a plague on conscience and a betrayal of morals.
Removing the office all together and giving back the power to the people is better.
Thr@ssy, i noticed you had your multiple pseudonyms out last night in full force twinkling yourself and stinkling GF & shooz big time
Will I be your next victim after my last comment ...that kinda hit the nail on the head, don't ya think?...lol....fire away
~Odin~
No it's not, I think we need government, we just need more responsive government.
People can govern themselves. That's the only way to arrive at real responsiveness. Any other solution gives power to a few representatives inviting corruption by those with big money.
If we use you as an example, then NO they can't.
You should quit saying such things.
You are incapable of governing yourself.
PS: Did you slap yourself for all your logical fallacies yet, or did you just pretend they don't apply to you?
You don't believe in anarchic principles?
Instead of spending your time discussing politics here which have nothing to do with Occupy, why not take a few days to initiate yourself with the foundations of Occupy, namely anarchy?
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/
This has nothing to do with my post.
It shows once again, that YOU lack the discipline to govern yourself.
So if YOU are not ready, how can you expect 6 billion people to be?
Am I that powerful that I negate the possibility of anarchism? Is that why you are obsessed with talking about politics here. I'm just one girl. I don't think anarchism could fail just because of me.
It's disingenuous of you to expect everyone else to self govern, when you can't even come close.
It's a lot like lying.
OK, so you don't believe anarchism is possible because of me. I suppose you like capitalism and a representative republic, even though there are corrupted bankers and presidents like Bush?
There are all kinds of bad people in the world. There's no political framework that will eliminate that. However, anarchism eliminates the power given to individuals. A bad person inside the framework of anarchism doesn't have the power to do bad like a bad representative would have. That's the important point.
Where did I say that?
I didn't.
What's the $50 logical fallacy for lying?
You should slap yourself twice for that one.
Now about you preaching that everybody, except YOU should self govern?
Anarcho-individualism is about self governance. Occupy is based on anarcho-communism which is community governance.
Why don't YOU answer the questions?
Do you find them difficult?
Where did I say what YOU have accused me of?
BTW, you never did say how all your puppet puppies are doing.
Eating you out of house and home perhaps?
You hijacked the serious discussion I was having with factsrfun for the sole purpose of bullying me. It's childish and uninteresting. Furthermore, you ask me the same questions every single day. That's essentially your contribution on this forum.
You, DKAtoday, and GF like to mount mob attacks against me and other users you deem are trolls. For some reason, you think you're the forum prosecutors. That's all you do on this forum. It's lame beyond belief. You live and operate form the same retirement home. You should just play bingo instead of soiling this website with inanities.
PUPPETEER!
Still won't answer the questions.
Where did I say what you accused me of??
You are a forum bully.
How does YOU, not answering questions make ME a bully.
It doesn't.
Which one of the logical fallacies is that behavior on your part?
You make so many of them, I get tired of looking them all up.
We're discussing your inability to self govern, not my beliefs.
How can you expect 6 billion people to practice what you lack?
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You are sockpuppet----a notorious internet troll---STFU and sit down.
PUPPETEER!!!!!
Now, about your inability to self govern?
You sound like a 12 year old. They say old age is like a second childhood. You can fight off the ravages of senility by doing activities that make you think, like playing bingo at the retirement home. My grandfather used to stay sharp by playing checkers.
PUPPETEER!!
With value added logical fallacies!
Today's deal, gets you two logical fallacies for the price of one!!
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So you support full blown Monarchy no voting just biggest gun rules, interesting, I don't support that.
Anarchy, not monarchy. Where did I talk about kings and queens? You should learn about anarchy, that's what constitutes the foundation of Occupy principles. We're in a pretty bad state if long time users don't even know the difference between anarchy and monarchy. Pretty bad indeed.
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/
The strong rise from anarchy to become monarchs so it was in the beginning and we move ever closer to that again as we weaken the people's only power that of the vote exercised through a strong government, the nation should serve the many not the few and that can only happen if the many have power otherwise those willing to do unspeakable things to gain power will.
You think the people's only power is a vote every four years through a strong government?
What do you consider a strong government? The Bush administration, the Obama administration, something else?
I'd like to use your previous comment as an example for a run-on sentence in tomorrow's English class. May I?
Kind of revels your level of involvement, there are Federal Elections every two years, I vote more often than that as there are local ones too.
Thank you or your teaching service, if "correcting papers" is your goal, good job!
I'm not American (praise the lord), and Occupy is not limited to US.
So, you think the people's only power is a vote every two years?
Voting is power, marching is ego, odd you are not American yet know our language so well as to correct a native speaker, isn't education wonderful!
You think only americans speak English?
Voting is the illusion of power.
Then Congress must only have the illusion power, why bother to protest it.
Americans speak American are you British? If so may I ask are the teeth as bad as people say?
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You and your court of puppet puppies.
You ARE the monarch.
It's why you can't be believed.
And that's very, very ugly.
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You mean why are we herded?
Cognitive infiltration is so dense here no real discussion can take place.
True. The forum is heavily guarded by the Twinkle Team. They attack those they disagree with in mob fashion. These self appointed prosecutors only want to talk about politics. It's a shame really.
Ad hominem.
Aren't you supposed to slapping yourself silly for doing that?
Only want to talk about dysfunctional politics. Many are not "self appointed", they are drafted, hired and paid.
They attack functional politics, that is their job. They have succeeded to a degree and been able to deceive quite a few to work with them, but by testing them, we can know the difference.
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Free speech isnt limited.
Why is it that you have multiple IDs and return even though you have been banned multiple times?
If every day must revolve around you then let's let it revolve around you. It's all about you and how much you suck ass.
The republicans were are asking the same question about Occupy. "We kicked them out of our parks, so why are they still around?" That is the Occupy way. An anarchist occupation is based on civil disobedience. You can't evict an idea.
You choose to make it about me by bumping my comments and postings. My postings generally get the most comments on this forum because they are the most interesting. If you don't like them, you can simply ignore. There's all kinds of political posts you can take part in instead.
No, you choose to make it about you. It's all about you. Your postings get the most comments not because they are interesting but because you are hired to post and have lots of socks. But, I am very interested in your way.
I am not paid to be here. That is a fantasy you have concocted out of thin air. Like the many others here, you attack the proposer when you disagree with an idea. I encourage you to use proper arguments instead. And, if you decide to accuse someone of something, I suggest you provide some evidence. I believe in the concept of being innocent until proven guilty, and I shudder at the idea of trying to create a better world without it.
" the concept of being innocent until proven guilty"
For this to be effective, you have to answer questions honestly and without evasion.
You have so far, proven to be ineffective at that.
False. In America, and most other western nations, you have the right to remain silent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_silence
This is a fundamental right in most countries and it means the police and prosecutors have the responsibility to provide evidence for the wrongs they claim you have done whether or not you wish to help them by talking or otherwise disclosing information.
Occupy has given seminars concerning this law. I'm surprised you don't know of it.
I recommend listening to this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
This is a forum, not a court of law.
As far as I know, there are no lawyers among us, let alone judges.
Here, honesty is about building comradery.
You're not very good at that.
You and many others like GirlFriday act like the forum prosecutors when you make accusations. I'm simply asking that you provide evidence when you accuse another forum member of some "crime". I think this is a reasonable request. If you don't have evidence, then don't take on the role of prosecutors.
How many puppets have you used so far?
What were there names?
How many times have you used bots, or provided and encouraged others to use them?
Give us some clear and simple truths on the subjects.
No hedging and no evasion.
Ah, see, it all boils down to that one simple thing. Multiple IDs make you a suck ass troll. You did that all by your little ol' self.
"" I'm not running for anything, but if Murdock wants to give me some cash, I'll take it.""
Is this proof enough that you are a total fraud?
I encourage you to make another thread on discovering how much per day people need to live on and extend it to the world population. That was a very productive thread, wasn't it? I was so impressed with your intellect in that one. I encourage you to go back to school for another career. You have already blown your cover, sweet pea.
I don't remember writing such a thread. Do you have the link? It was probably someone else. You think everyone here except the Twinkle Team is me! Your paranoia and conspiracy theories are practically boundless. I'm him, her, I get paid, etc... I wish I got paid to post here. God knows I need the money.
Oh, no. Not everyone here is you.
However, you do have multiple IDs. There's no paranoia. Just recognition.
So, no link?
Go get one of your socks to hunt it down.
Could it be because so goes USG policy, so goes most of the world? At least for the moment...
Give me a specific example of what you would consider political and non-political?
Political- RepeliCan'ts, NeoLibe(r)tarians, and Repelicans are the problem. We need to get rid of them. Demorats, Libtards and Demon-crats are the problem, we need to get rid of em.
Apolitical- fuck em all, we dont need em, and we shouldnt even be humoring. Definitely not depending on em.
Thoughts?
The only way to 'not need' them any more is to set up our own 'People's Society'...through global community, and ignore 'them'. Render them useless. The only way a global community can function is through the internet. The web needs to be protected at all cost. The only way to set up a community based e-democracy is that we have to get enough of us together with the 'trust' in each other that we all want basically the same thing. To govern ourselves. Iceland is already doing this to a degree. But they had to trust each other to get there. The democratic voting on individual issues comes later, via the global e-voting system we set up. Setting up the 'system' is the core issue here...and 'we' are the impetus by which it could happen.
You've just posted both the key and the problem at the same time. TRUST.
Trust is something that is earned. We learn to trust people by observing them over time and determining that their behaviors, actions, and words are consistent with our own.
BUT trust is a two edged sword. If we put our trust in good, honest people it's a blessing. But if we put our trust in bad, dishonest people, it's a curse.
People who believe that their goal or agenda is more important than the truth, will base their actions, words, and behaviors on achieving that agenda no matter how many lies or distortions or how much propaganda is involved in achieving the goal. Others with the same agenda will come to "trust" each other to a certain degree simply because their end goals are consistent-without any regard for how that end is reached.
Is it enough to "trust" in each other that we all want basically the same thing"? Or is it important to ASK, to verify- 1) that all DO really want basically the same thing and 2) that thing is "to govern ourselves" 3) all involved can and WILL govern themselves in a manner that is consistent with how you want to govern yourself.
If there is a large enough group of people that have no problem "trusting" another person even though they know that those others lie, distort, spin, and manipulate information in order to sway others to their particular argument-then fine. But whatever society is established by that can never succeed for long, because if a situation ever arises in which some disagree with a particular goal or event or law or rule-it's already been established what behavior will erupt.
It's much more dangerous to trust a representative in a representative democracy than it is to trust a fellow man in anarchy because the representative has much more power. Because he has more power, those with money want to corrupt him. In anarchy, because everyone has the same amount of power, which is essentially very little, it's much more difficult to corrupt. A billionaire today simply needs to give a bribe to a governor, or even the president.
Your argument falls flat because no matter what the political system in place you'll have to trust someone. We already know we can't trust bankers, representatives, billionaires, etc... They work together within the framework of representative democracy to screw us all.
You're naive to think that money is the problem and not the desire for power itself. All it takes in anarchy is a large enough group of people with essentially very little power themselves to COLLABORATE. If the person who wants power isn't in it for the money, then all you have to do is find out what their weakness is and then it's easy to corrupt someone.
I don't trust ANYONE who lies to me or attempts to manipulate me with fallacies. I put them right in the same category with bankers and reps and billionaires etc if they want to use ANY framework to screw us all.
Your argument falls flat because you think that you can trust everyone who doesn't obviously fall into your personally defined categories of evil. It's impossible to establish a society in which everyone has and exercises the exact same amount of power because all human beings do not place value on or in the same things.
The idea is not to create a society where everyone has exactly the same amount of power. This would be a theoretically perfect rendition of anarchy, but it is of course impossible. The idea is to spread power thinly amongst the whole population, so that if one person has more power than another he still won't have near the power that the rest have against him. In this way, the community always remains in power. In a representative democracy, the president has more power than thousands upon thousands of men combined. This is extremely unhealthy.
If a person in untrustworthy in anarchy he'll simply get crushed by the community. If a representative, or the president is untrustworthy in a representative republic he'll easily crush the whole nation for his personal benefit. We've seen this countless times around the world.
Bush comes to mind. The guy lied about WMD to start an illegal war which cost millions of lives and millions of dollars. America's debt was increased enormously and many people are still suffering the economic consequences to this day. Just because of one man, one man who wanted to finish the work of his father. It's absolutely disgusting.
Copy Iceland in how they handled the criminal economic meltdown - locally. Talk about a good example!
Unless of course we are the Green Party? Or the Libertarian party? Or Justice Party?
I mean, we have threads that deal with poverty, current bills, food speculation etc.
Those parties arent popular enough to be turned into idiotic takes. But if they were, you can bet they would go down the same path as the other two.
Power corrupts. Policians, parties and platforms.
So, they are in the clear......................
I'm gonna keep on posting on the homeless and it's political, I'm going to keep on posting union pieces and it's political. Environmental pieces-it's political. Privatization of education. More so, I'm going to keep on posting on where the money is moving through and where it isn't going.
I like details.
I will never, ever trust a known troll with multiple IDs.
You don't need to trust me. I use arguments to support my ideas so that you are able to judge them on their own merit. I'm sure you're well educated and capable of analyzing an idea without falling prey to the lame distraction caused by an appeal to motive logical fallacy.
You have multiple IDs and lack integrity. When you get called on you cry out, "appeal to motive"............on an OWS forum where we tear apart issues looking for motives behind legislation etc.
You're a cockroach.
strawman and ad hominem
Nah, you just don't like the truth. The truth is that you are a little cockroach and you think that if you blend in well enough that nobody is going to notice.
Ain't going to happen.
ad hominem
Multiple IDs make you a suck ass troll.
Just stop sucking.
ad hominem
Only you can prevent forest fires. Stop sucking.
Using name calling against those you disagree with instead of proper arguments makes the site look bad which turns away potential intellectuals that could help Occupy. I wouldn't be surprised if you were a paid troll sent here to soil the reputation of the site by littering it with childish insults. I have no evidence so I won't accuse you of that. Perhaps you do this out of ignorance, without even realizing it.
You don't have any proper arguments. You are a sockpuppet. In fact, you create them because you like to and not for anything about OWS. Your lack of integrity is detrimental. That's why you keep doing it. It creates division. When you find those that you can't divide, you just keep working a little harder. Just stop sucking.
Red herring.
Or perhaps a blue guppy.
Whatever, it smells more like a dead fish every time you repeat it.
Keep downvoting. Doesn't bother me at all You are a slimy disgusting little cockroach.
I never vote up nor down. I don't believe in the voting system used on this site.
Do you have any more logical fallacies for us? Another ad hominem perhaps?
Have any other attempts to justify your little sockpuppets? You are a dishonest slimeball. You're idiocy is showing, little cockroach.
Those who go around this site using ad hominem name calling like kindergarteners instead of arguments paint themselves out to be idiots.
You use them all the time.
Have you slapped yourself silly for doing so yet?
For someone who claims not to like this kind of thing, you sure do do a lot of it.
You should slap yourself for that too.
Call me out when I do. You tried doing that today in another thread, but you only showed you didn't understand what a red herring and an ad hominem was.
I do.
You just become confusingly verbose and pretend you didn't use them.
That's not very clear of you.
The only things I really know about you is that you are glib, verbose and evasive.
Not exactly good qualities.
Go ahead and prove me wrong.
Name all the puppets you've ever used here.
Just for the sake of "clarity".
Thrasy was always the clearest writer here. However, it takes another good writer like me to perceive this. Intellectuals are only noticed by other intellectuals.
Here's one of her best postings. The writing is on the edge of poetic.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-and-how-ows-must-change-or-onto-anarcho-syndic/
I thought you said that was you?
Hmmm. Why would you do that?
I would question the use of the word our in the text, as it's out of context and unexplained.
thrassy never was much good at explaining things.
Did you notice the -2000 rating?
He/she/it must have run smack dab into communication and /or trust issues, but I guess that's poetry too.
I have to say, I much preferred our enumerated communication style.
I find continuous quote monkeys to be disgusting and a bit pompous.
I respect Thrasy a great deal. She's by far the best poster here. She writes in a clear, elegant fashion and displays sound logic supported by a foundation of strong arguments. She very rarely insults other posters even though most people here call her names all the time. As the forum's prime educator, she has shown an incredible level of patience and tolerance. We should all strive to be more like her.
You're clear as mud, just like thrassy.
Guess you're infatuated too.
There are thousands. I didn't keep track. You can always ask jart. She could easily find out from the IPs that were used. I love using sock puppets. They make you and GirlFriday mad for some odd reason. It's funny. What really matters are ideas, not the proposer.
Oh, OK.
You're an infatuated script kiddie. I get it.
There was a guy around here once called thrassy that suffered from the same thing.
He was incredibly egotistical too. Do you have that issue as well?
So sad, to see such promise go south.
But OK, whatever.
Just post all the IPs you've ever used and I'll get in touch with jart, you shameless name dropper.
[-] -1 points by clearsimpletruths (28) 9 minutes ago There are thousands. I didn't keep track. You can always ask jart. She could easily find out from the IPs that were used. I love using sock puppets. They make you and GirlFriday mad for some odd reason. It's funny. What really matters are ideas, not the proposer. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink
Is it? You see, don't even bother faking to attempt to cry when you get called out for being a suck ass troll.
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You lose. Multiple IDs make you a suck ass troll.
Stop sucking.
I'm not playing a game. I'm here for a reason, not just to go around insulting others and playing the twinkle stinkle game. If you're playing a game, then I'll be happy to make you feel good and accord you the win. Bravo! You are victorious.
Sure you are. It's called the sockpuppet game. You seem to be the only one that thinks this is the shizzle.. You are a suck ass troll.
You don't have any arguments. You are merely another sock puppet in a long line. You have nothing. You failed a long time ago. Honey, that is all you. No one else's fault but your own.
That's your opinion and you are free to have it. I'll stop using this site when I stop getting replies to posts and comments. Right now, my ideas are usually at the top of the pile because they garner so much interest.
Nah, not really. You pretty much suck ass.
ad hominem
Sock puppet division troll.
Radical Movements Keep this Country Honest
You don't want to compromise with power ever!. Justice and truth over power and privilege.
From an old post on this issue
"The question is not how do we get good people to rule.That's the wrong question. Most people attracted to power are at best mediocre and usually venal. The question is how do we make the power afraid of us?"
You ever hear the story of Ken Hechler and Nixon?
Hechler was a fighter for the miners. He was fighting for a black lung bill that would provide benefits. Nixon didn't want to sign it. Hechler held a press conference and said something along the lines of "if Nixon doesn't sign this bill tonight, every mine in this country will shut down."
You better bet Nixon signed that bill. Later on Hechler came out and said, "I had no idea if they were gonna shut down or not."
Trying to affect change by playing into the current system is political. Trying to get certain laws passed, pushing for a particular party, creating a party, making demands to the current politicians, etc...
Being apolitical is creating the new system without asking the help of people currently involved in the current one. It's bypassing all the elected officials, parties, etc...
Occupy is apolitical. It was never meant to play into politics. The political squabbles on this site have nothing to do with Occupy.
OWS made a lot of demands that would violate the principal that you have mentioned.
I think you might be confusing "we don't endorse any candidate" with non-political.
OWS is very political in many aspects. It goes beyond politics as well, with boycotts and other forms of action.
OWS shouldn't have made those demands. They weren't in the spirt of OWS and broke away with the initial ideas of the protest. It was a big mistake.
I think you are very confused on this issue.
Check out this video with Chris Hedges. He explains it nicely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8UW__mFMd8
also in this link - http://occupywallst.org/forum/radical-movements-keep-this-country-honest/
Sara I had just mentioned to GF that I was wondering when you would reinvent yourself.And than Damn here you are.You never did answere me about arrogance?I guess I was wrong you do this for Pay?When will clearsimpletruths go Away.That name sounds so nixonian.
[-] 1 points by cJessgo (790) from Port Jervis, PA 1 minute ago Sara I had just mentioned to GF that I was wondering when you would reinvent yourself.And than Damn here you are.You never did answere me about arrogance?I guess I was wrong you do this for Pay?When will clearsimpletruths go Away.That name sounds so nixonian. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink
I am shocked. SHOCKED!!
Why don't we be incompetent, totally ineffective, accomplish nothing and be self-congratulatory about it?
We should be extremely critical amongst ourselves and towards Occupy, and we should start creating the better world right now. There's no reason we can't focus our energies on developing an e-democracy system and start anarcho-syndicalist businesses and other cooperatives.
Exactly. I have come to the very same conclusion. Let us work on this project together in solidarity.
That would be great.
So, you set up a website then? Are all your socks in order?
We will create a new website as a community. I'm still discussing the idea with people here and other forums. When we have brainstormed sufficiently, we will start a website for the project. The code will be open-source and most likely reside on github. For now, we can discuss the Bridge to the Ground on this website.
Could we? Will we need one of your other threads? Or will you make a brand new one?
The postings for the "Bridge to the Ground" project are organized by topic. If there is no posting for the topic you wish to discuss, you may start a new posting. For organizational purposes, you simply need to prefix "Bridge to the Ground - " to your post title. This will permit an easy forum search.
For example, this posting is about task distribution:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/bridge-to-the-ground-on-a-task-distribution-system/
Stinkle =
Forum Post: Why do people solely discuss American politics on a site which is the hub for a non-political international protest?
STINKLE Why??? The world wide Occupy protests have been political from the very beginning.
You don't understand Occupy.
Looking in the mirror? and your fingers just happened to type your comment to yourself?
WTF!!!. You really fucking think that OWS is "non political". it is 100% based in radical liberal / socialist politics asshole. Take off the Pollyanna glasses. You really cannot be that fucking stupid. Then again.... You're an OWS member.
Well if you do not care for this brand of politics why would you be here.I would never waste my time at a young republicans event.You sir must be a dope.
The political squabbles posted here have nothing to do with OWS.
Well either do you .Than again that has never prevented you from trying toblow smoke up these peolpe's ass.Has it Sara?
Creating a system of e-democracy, and creating anarcho-syndicalist run businesses have everything to do with Occupy.
You could care less.And you may dupe some people here with the new you.But all I see is an insecure troll trying to Fake it.And like your hero Mitt Romney you can not fake faking it.Does old Newt still"smell like a breath of fresh air to you"?
New me? I posted over a year ago about how Occupy must start organizing anarcho-syndicalist run businesses. It's a very good post. You should read it.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-and-how-ows-must-change-or-onto-anarcho-syndic/
Please, could we have another thread on calculating how much money we need to live on?
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[-] 1 points by cJessgo (800) from Port Jervis, PA 2 hours ago It is simple you get off your fat ass.Away from the computer.Go get a job.Than you do the math.Now is that to much to ask? ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink
What happened there, fucknut?
Wanted to see you react.Did you get off that fat ass yet?Aw cum on give them cheeks a break.
But, I'm not fat, you fucking twisted little cockroach.
:D
Madam my Cock is not twisted.
You don't have a cock, just too much Koch.
Ask the original author. I never posted such a thing.
How about an entire thread devoted to how you have multiple IDs because you want people to pay attention to your message? Followed by an entire thread where you say that you do it because it's just gosh darn fun. Those are the bestest.
You're a cockroach. It's true.
Well I have to say you have a 6-faced enemy here. If I had the time and lameness to start 5 more accounts you would be coming out ahead with twinkles. Good luck.
Right-ON
You are just a paid to post little cockroach with a Koch problem.
Ouch...The bimbette called me a Koch. Now you've gone too far.
This coming from an out of work socialist. Oh...the pain.
Pfftt.............little cockroach with a Koch problem. Your one of those Craig's List Trolls aren't ya?
Everyone sing the bimbo Friday Koch song..."Koch Koch Koch Koch Koch Koch Koch Koch ...
Second verse... Koch Koch Koch Koch
Because singing the little You are a disgusting, slimy, Koch whoring cockroach is much funner and very accurate.
Sing Bimbo Friday......sing!!!
You are a disgusting, slimy, Koch whoring cockroach is much funner and very accurate.
How do you wake up and look in the mirror knowing that you are a sell out to the American people? You could always STOP SUCKING ASS.
Time for me to earn a living, and pay your welfare and food stamps bitch. Enjoy standing in the line for your weekly handout. See you later for another ass kicking
Signed...Kochy