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Forum Post: What is the #1 problem?

Posted 1 year ago on April 5, 2013, 1:03 a.m. EST by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Is it capitalism or is it the political system?

We can say capitalism and most people generally know what you're talking about. Well, to some extent anyway. (Ours is a horrible perversion of what it could be.)

The political system is more elusive. It doesn't have a name. We do have a few names for it, I like this definition:

"The United States is a representative democracy. Citizens elect representatives to national, state, and local government; those representatives create the laws that govern U.S. society. Although nothing in U.S. law requires it, in practice, the political system is dominated by political parties. With rare exceptions, elections are decided between the two major parties: Democrats and Republicans. Although citizens vote for individual candidates, most candidates are affiliated with one part or another. Therefore, much of U.S. politics boils down to party politics. ... At times, this influence has grown so noticeable that some have called into question whether the U.S. is truly a democracy of the people or something more like an oligarchy of special interest groups. " https://www.boundless.com/sociology/understanding-government/u-s-political-system/u-s-political-system/

My opinion is it's the political system. The form or variation of capitalism is defined by what the political system will or will not tolerate. I won't say it is bound by what the people will or will not tolerate, because the people are not unified and are powerless. There is no democracy here, that's very obvious and I pity anyone who believes otherwise.

So, capitalism or the political system? Or something else?

If we know what the #1 problem is, why not focus all energy on it. We are a light bulb without focus. Sure we light up the room, we are a bright group, but is a laser not more effective in some cases? When will we decide unity is better than an army spread hopelessly thin?

Back to Topic References: http://occupywallst.org/forum/conglomerate-and-dgrc-topic-references/

57 Comments

57 Comments


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[-] 3 points by ManFromTheMarsh (6) 1 year ago

The representative republic focuses political power in the hands of a few, while capitalism focuses money power in the hands of a few. This permits those with money power to easily target political power for corruption since only a few have it. Once these representatives are corrupted, they can affect laws which benefit those with money power.

If political power was spread more equally amongst the people, with a form of anarchy without representatives, then it would be near impossible for those with money to corrupt the laws since there wouldn't be any targets with political power.

The problem is the combination of a representative republic with capitalism. As Plato rightly stated more than 2,500 years ago, representative democracies tend to become oligarchies if left unchecked.

[-] 2 points by Shule (2041) 1 year ago

Pretty good observation.

I think though it gets deeper than that. It gets into this third dimension of the moral consciousness of people; something pretty elusive, but nevertheless a key factor. Right now there is this thinking overwhelming not only the 1%, but also the 99% that individuals are not responsible for society and everything else around them, they do not see society and the rest of what makes us a civilization as an extension of themselves. "Tragedy of the Commons" I believe is what it is called.

Of course, when one looks around, and sees all our institutions, political, economic, environmental, and social in slow motion meltdown, how else can anyone think otherwise?

[-] 1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

All absolutely true. It's again a shame we have to put names on things. Even people regarded as experts in history (Rome, Greece, etc.), think anarchy and chaos are synonymous.

But what can we do. If nothing else we wait for everything to collapse and watch things evolve on their own. There are other strategies we can use.

[-] 2 points by ManFromTheMarsh (6) 1 year ago

I don't think intellectuals like expert historians think anarchy equates chaos. Only the uneducated would think that.

[-] 2 points by Renneye (4004) 1 year ago

Therein lies the problem, doesn't it? What percentage of our population defines how many are expert historians?

Regrettably, the largest portion of our population is uneducated...and those are the people that would need to be convinced on terms like anarchy, communism and socialism. Teaching/convincing a hesitant global population to trust the policies behind these terms would take many years...time we don't have. If we're talking about building a new society from the ground up...why can't we just use new and fresh terminology as well? A clean slate. How about something like "Self-Rule"?

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

I just heard someone say that to an audience of tens of thousands. Very well educated, just stupid about that. And now all those people have it more brainwashed into them. Nothing we can do to fix them.

[-] 1 points by ManFromTheMarsh (6) 1 year ago

Nothing we can do to fix them.

Educating is always an option.

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Education is what they think they're getting.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

It depends on if the people can handle it or not.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Wake the people up from their media induced coma! It doesn't matter what form of economic or government system we have if the people don't participate. They are being led by the nose, oblivious to all of the corruption surrounding them, following the latest consumer fad being dangled in front of them.

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

It does matter what system. We'll never change if we keep systems as they are. The systems keep us this way, making it hard for us to change the system. Propaganda comes in many subtle but effective forms.

Yes, wake the fuck up people!

[-] 4 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Don't put the cart before the horse. The system didn't put us to sleep, we allowed the few to drug us with the opiate of consumerism. The people need to kick the habit so their eyes can focus on reality again.

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Debatable chicken and egg situation. The system keeps us this way but we allow the system.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Your thoughts have created a prison from which there is no escape.

Example: "The system controls our actions, so we can never change the system because - repeat ."

It's circular logic.

http://www.wayofthemind.org/2009/01/14/the-lovely-circular-logic-of-biblical-literalists/

Break out of the thought prison by taking control of your own actions!

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

At least we are aware, the awareness will spread. And we do need to scrap the political system of elections and parties. There will always be better, then worse leaders. It's what's perpetuating the prison.

[-] 2 points by gsw (2697) 1 year ago

We've been socialized in our culture, and our DNA to not awaken.

http://gypsyking1.wordpress.com/2013/04/05/another-fine-post-on-the-ows-forum/

We invent our own prisons! And allow ourselves to stay within such confines

[-] 1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

No one said money is the number 1 issue.

In case you didn't know, it's true. You can't drive down further than this. All other things, corporations, corruption, suffering, the screwed up culture, technological suppression, lack of democracy, religions?... they are all symptoms.

Take my word for it. Or rather, watch Zeitgeist Addendum again.

So we can fix it all by evolving beyond money. Stop what you are doing. Ask yourself, about the issue you're pissed at at the moment, the following question: If money was a thing of the past, would my issue still exist?

If there was no such thing as money, would there be prisons at all?

If we could safely travel around the world at 4,000 miles/hour in frictionless tubes using a fraction of the energy of airplanes... if we had an abundance of clean-captured and stored energy, would there be less pollution?

Maybe the sole purpose of the Occupy movement should be to push for Jacque Fresco's Venus Project, and the intelligent management of Earth's resources.

The governments will not all simultaneously flip a switch and eliminate money and borders to free us all. The majority of the population who do not have time to listen, who are constantly brainwashed by MSM, will need to be convinced with strategy. They will not listen to you. They will not believe anything but what they see on TV, and convince each other of the thing they all just watched.

coun·ter·rev·o·lu·tion (koun t r-r v -l sh n). n. 1. A revolution whose aim is the deposition and reversal of a political or social system set up by a previous revolution.

Now you might be thinking that you need to have a revolution in order to have a counterrevolution. Indeed, the corporate elite has taken control of all aspects, and this was a revolution.The people are free to fix it.

The strategy to gain support of all who will not listen is the 99% Conglomerate (ask if you don't know). It can convert consumers,employees and entrepreneurs as covertly as the capitalists corrupted government.

Are you actively pursuing justice and exercising your "constitutional rights"? Is it consuming much of your time? Are you having any luck? If you have had a success, what is protecting your victory in the future, and might your battle have to be fought again by you or someone else?

The 99% Conglomerate only needs a few minutes of your time, one time, and you'll have contributed more to a better future than you might realize now.

[-] 1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

DKA, truth?: Poverty, war, crime, starvation, and such will not change much in a monetary system.

The #1 problem is money.

We have to escape it. Anyone not willing to escape money needs to die before they take my children and their children an the planet with them.

Harsh words? It is a matter of life and death for me. If we don't change (escape money), we're as good as dead anyway. Please debate me on this.

DKA, this wasn't about you. I just like seeing your stamp of truth.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

WallStreet.

Coupled with corporate charter.

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

WallSt can't exist without consent of government.

Government can exist without consent of WallSt.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

That's what the mafia always tries to convince you of.

It's a mutual arrangement.

Now pay your vig, or Vito will break your supply chain.

[-] 1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Neither can last forever. Looks like I'll be joining the ranks of OTP soon.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

What "ranks" are those and who told you of their existence?

I'm also curious as to how you believe in the innocence of Wallstreet.

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Did I stumble onto something secret? I was referring to the attack I just suffered, soon I'll be -300 too.

About the innocence of WallSt, I must have been confusing again. I absolutely hate wallst and would never support irresponsible capitalism.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

So you assume I'm doing it?????

All I did was point out that I believe Wallstreet is our main problem and has been for several decades now.

Was my mistake to you in describing their behavior as not unlike the mafia?

Because I believe that too. That they behave not at all unlike the mafia.

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

They are mafia that's true. Mistake was thinking I sympathize with them or something, that it is innocent. It's the wild west for them, murdering anything that might stand between them and profit.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

WallStreet poisons everything they touch.

They are economic leaches, that add no real value to anything.

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Something even capitalism could easily live without.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

I'm sorry.

That IS capitalism.

They ARE the real capitalists. They live off of capital.

They produce nothing but inflation.

Don't confuse them with the industrialists they control.

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Capitalism wasn't supposed to have people making money without producing.

Hey, I want a world without capitalism. Was just saying.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

I will explain this once more.

That IS what a capitalist does. He makes money on capital without producing anything but inflation.

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

A capitalist is anyone who profits in accordance with the principles of capitalism.

[-] 1 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

The acceptance of ignorance is the #1 problem.

2 - is the focus on economics

3 - is inaction and violence

4 - the emphasis by some on collectivism, groupthink and solidarity

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

But why is there acceptance of ignorance? That doesn't stand on its own, there is a reason people are comfortably dumb.

[-] 2 points by 99time (90) 1 year ago

I have an idea. I detailed it back in 2011 here http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-tv-is-the-voice-of-the-one-percent/

When it comes to systemic problems, the corporate media is number one.

As for the people, bigotry is our worse problem.

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

How about this. We convince movie stars to contribute say $1 mil each to building one of Jacque Fresco's Venus Project cities. A trial run of the future. Get them to step out and say proudly "I am not afraid to be equal. I am willing to move forward to a future without economic inequality."

I believe great movie stars will not be afraid to live without money, in a resource-based economy. They will still have what few achieve: fame and popularity in non-monetary ways.

Movie stars are highly influential people. They will lose fame and influence if they desire inequality. With them pushing for a better, life-sustaining future, united this way with the 99%... maybe that's the easiest way to fix the corporate media issue.

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

That was a great post, thanks for linking. I have trouble believing we will be able to do much about the MSM before political system evolution, since MSM belongs to TPTB.

[-] 1 points by 99time (90) 1 year ago

I'm glad you liked it.

As Milton Friedman said, in times of crisis, the actions people take depend upon the "ideas that are lying around." If nothing else, I want our ideas lying around, not his!

[-] -2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Actually the two problems you mention are one and the same.

Bigotry is fed by the corporate media to keep us divided.

[-] 0 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

Many, if not most, people accept "common sense" as "good sense".

[-] 0 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

The abridging of free speech caused the problem and, prevents its solution.

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

What do you mean by abridging and what solution is it preventing? And when did this happen?

[-] 2 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Abridging of free speech got bad when mass media became even slightly common place, 1950 perhaps.

The solution is the peoples ability to properly define constitutional intent so an ART5 convention can be well done. We need free speech to do it. Now, more than ever.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by eviltrillionaire (-146) 1 year ago

The United States IS NOT a representative democracy. It's a representative republic.

We haven't had capitalism in the U.S. in over 75 years. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no idea what they're talking about.

Suggest you get your facts straight.

[-] -1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

It's a democratic republic.

And anyone who thinks that voting makes a difference needs to get their facts straight.

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Haha!

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Good point. Call it what you want but you should realize that these names mean nothing useful to your audience. Not sure what fact you're complaining about.

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

It's a shame no one seems to be thinking about this, or this: http://occupywallst.org/forum/political-parties-of-departmental-governance/

So basically it sounds like we want to keep voting and hoping with fingers crossed we elect the right people.

Some have a belief that by voting we can separate capitalism from democracy. What democracy?

Propaganda is a hot topic too, as it should be since that is the reason people think we have a shred of democracy. Again, watch the video in this thread, but try the whole thing if you're confused about the state of democracy.

[-] -1 points by Stormcrow1 (-25) 1 year ago

The number one problem is the vast majority of college grads in this country got a degree in the wrong field.

So, to correct that they need to go back to college and get a degree in the field where there are jobs.

There are companies out there looking for engineers, programmers or any other field that is "math related'"

The problem is we have a society of stupid people who decided they wanted to get their degree in all the areas where there aren't any jobs.

I guess the vast majority of the X and Y generation need to get up to speed on what's going on in this country with jobs.

Manufacturing is out - so you might as well forget about that.

Now if you want a job in construction you need to be "mechanically inclined" and I don't see a lot of our youth with that capability.

The only other option is to be a "burger flipper with a worthless degree" or get off you young ass and go back to school and get a degree in areas where ther are jobs.

Now that's not too hard to understand is it?

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

The whippersnappers are more likely to strive for a better future for all.

http://sprword.com/videos/futurebydesign/

Watch at 12:30. I like his point that with technology we are constantly trying to make superior designs and improve. But when it comes to government and politics we are stuck and unmotivated to evolve.

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

And with the growing mechanization of labor, there will be little room for humans in production. When enough people are replaced by machines, there will cease to be an economy and most production will halt. We will be forced out of a money-based economy and into a resource-based one.

Then all those assholes who went to learn what interests them instead of what is most likely to pay big $, they will be economically equal to the greedy, angry folks.

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Is it possible the best solution is undiscovered, or do we think we know it all?

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Please watch http://sprword.com/videos/psywar/ Start at exactly 1 hour in and watch for 5 minutes or so.

[-] -1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I watched about fifteen minutes.

Very interesting compilation of facts.

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Nice. I watch these while doing dishes. Makes the time fly!

[-] -2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I watched it to the end.

What I like about this style of documentary is the matter-of-fact way of espousing points, and sharing information. No big dramas, and no grandstanding on individual points.

Kinda allows the individual to make their own minds up.