Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: What Do We Want to Replace The Current System

Posted 11 months ago on Aug. 3, 2013, 2:12 p.m. EST by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

For those of us who desire a great transformation in this world, we must remember this: We do not need to put forth any energy at all towards changing the system which now ‘exists’. It will fall of its own weight. It is already falling. The cracks and fissures inherent within its structure ensure the inevitability of its collapse. All we need to do is to decide what it is that we want to create to stand in its place. When all of our energy is focused on that, we will be standing in this transformed world we all want to see.

Teal Scott

43 Comments

43 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 4 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 11 months ago

"It will fall of its own weight. It is already falling."

This is not true. The economy has been getting better. Unemployment is going down and the economy is growing. The govt won't let the economy completely crash.

The great depression was so, so, so much worse than it is now and that didn't collapse the system.

If you want to change the system, you have to do the work of changing it. It will not go away on its own.

.

"All we need to do is to decide what it is that we want to create to stand in its place."

We can create what Professor Gar Alperovitz calls the second American Revolution by just getting Congress to pass a "Jobs Bill" that will authorize the Fed to provide whatever investment money is necessary to launch enough democratic companies to fully employ everyone who wants to work in one.

This will give all workers in this country the freedom to choose whether they want to work for a capitalist firm or a democratic firm.

This would be revolutionary because it would likely mark the end of capitalism. Few will want to continue working for a capitalist firm when they have the freedom to work in a democratic firm which offers workers a guaranteed job, equal ownership, a minimum wage of $115,000 per year and a work week of 20 hours as explained in this post which you can access by clicking here.

A democratic company is just a company that is owned and controlled democratically where income is allocated based on how much labor you contribute.

The differences between a democratic company and a capitalist company are profound:

  • A democratic company guarantees anyone a job (instead of capitalism's system where the amount of jobs available depend on how much the owners of capital are willing to invest),
  • where every worker is an equal owner (instead of capitalism's system of ownership being concentrated in the hands of a few),
  • where 100% of the income is paid to workers (instead of capitalism's system of only paying half the income to workers so that it can pay the other half to the owners of capital),
  • and where income is allocated based on how hard you work by limiting differences in income to only what's necessary to get workers to do physically or mentally difficult jobs and give their max effort in performance based jobs (instead of capitalism's system of allocating income based on how lucky or scarce you are in the market).

.

"When all of our energy is focused on that, we will be standing in this transformed world we all want to see."

I completely agree. Unfortunately, OWS is more interested in organizing protests than organizing for solutions.

[-] 1 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 11 months ago

This is a good idea. I believe the improvements in the economy are false; unemployment is down because more people are working but are earning less money and working fewer hours. The stimulus in the beginning was not enough and we have resumed the implementation of austerity. GDP may be up, but the things included in the calculation do not take into account the fact that much of it is created by destroying the atmosphere, the water, the land and the people. The graph at the link below shows a remarkable parallel to the depression of the 30's: http://signaltrend.com/Stock-Market-Great-Depression.html

[-] 1 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 11 months ago

The improvements are certainly not good. People are working less hours and making less money. But they still are improvements, and the economy will continue to get better. So the economy is improving, not collapsing.

If we don't make an effort to organize around changing the economy with specific solutions we can all agree on, the economic system will not change.

I don't know about the accuracy of that graph, but recessions have to do with changes in GDP and the resulting unemployment, not what happens in the stock market. Temporarily losing money on paper has little consequence to people compared to losing their job and all of their income.

During the great depression unemployment was 25% (and stayed above 10% for 10 years) and GDP per capita dropped 40%. In the current recession, unemployment was only 10% and GDP dropped only 5%.

Plus, the unemployed during the great depression didn't have unemployment insurance, food stamps, Social Security or other forms of government help that people currently have.

[+] -5 points by itsmyblood (10) 11 months ago

By implementing new urbanism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Urbanism and autonomous building http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_building methods, as well as the practices of permaculture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture and aquaponics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaponics we can break their backs. By developing communities where you can walk, bike, or take efficient public transportation to shopping, entertainment and leisure activities, school, and work. As well as produce your own food. merchandise and services regionally under the control of cooperatives http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-op and b corporations http://www.bcorporation.net/. We can greatly reduce not only the destruction caused by wanton consumerism but begin to remediate the destruction we have caused to not just the environment but the human condition. We can do this people we can green deserts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ra89Y3WefQ . We can change the world!!! Here are some good sites to help us. I encourage you to post any other sites that would be helpful to achieving these goals. http://www.slowmovement.com/ http://www.newurbanism.org/ http://earthship.com/ http://www.bfi.org/ http://aquaponicsassociation.org/ http://www.slowfoodusa.org/ http://www.permaculture.org/nm/index.php/site/index/ http://www.evolver.net/ http://www.realitysandwich.com/ http://www.evolvernetwork.org/ http://www.occupy.com/ http://www.maps.org/ http://opensourceecology.org/

[+] -8 points by itsmyblood (10) 11 months ago

any idea that seeks to only improve the current structures of society will fail utterly and completely. no this is far bigger than just changing economic systems. we have to change our entire lifestyles (how we live) build up new institutions to replace those that have failed and/or are failing and that is all of the institutions last i checked. continuing an extract and exploit system even if it is democratically based falls far short of real change.

[-] 2 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 11 months ago

"any idea that seeks to only improve the current structures of society will fail utterly and completely"

I think we live in an unjust, immoral and cruel society. But our society is much better than it was in the past. Society has improved, it has changed. Change is possible.

.

"no this is far bigger than just changing economic systems"

I believe the primary problem in the world is lack of income. Lack of income is what kills millions from malnutrition; what prevents people from accessing medical care, education, good housing, the latest technology, and a high standard of living; the cause of many crimes; and since your income determines your political power, it is the reason why people lack political power.

People only lack income because we have an unfair economic system that allocates the vast majority of income that workers produce into the hands of a tiny minority.

If we replaced our capitalist system which concentrates wealth in the hands of a few with a democratic system that allocates income in an egalitarian way, everyone would be wealthy.

And when you make everyone wealthy you solve nearly every social problem.

.

"we have to change our entire lifestyles"

What do you mean?

[-] -3 points by itsmyblood (10) 11 months ago

no moral relativism please. comparing the bad with the improved version of bad is still bad. then you sit back and say "oh.... things they are getting better."

it's not lack of income it's lack of vision.

what i mean is adopting the principles and practices of permaculture, aquaponics, autonomous building, green energy, high speed rail, new urbanism, commons/community access, community building, b corporations, co/op businesses, intentional communities, reconnecting with the earth, restoring non religious spirituality to humanity. you know actually changing.

[-] 2 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 11 months ago

I couldn't disagree with you more.

If you speak to the 50% of Americans who are in or near poverty and ask them what their primary problem is, they will tell you the lack of income to afford a decent life.

They won't tell you their primary problems are that their vegetables are grown in dirt instead of water, or that their trains go too slow, or that their neighborhood isn't a hippie commune.

You are out of touch with what the struggles of ordinary people are.

[-] -1 points by itsmyblood (10) 11 months ago

the people don't know what they need.

[-] 1 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 11 months ago

I'm pretty sure poor people and people struggling financially have figured out that they need more income.

[-] -1 points by itsmyblood (10) 11 months ago

i am pretty sure money is not what they need. does vision come from money? does love come from money? does a sense of community come from money? no i am pretty sure more money is not the solution to the worlds problems.

[-] 1 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 11 months ago

I think if you turn down the flower child soundtrack, you would be able to see that poverty is a lack of income. It is not a lack of vision, love or community.

In order to fix a lack of income, you have to give people more income.

[-] -1 points by itsmyblood (10) 11 months ago

people need income to grow a garden? to talk to their neighbors? to learn applicable skills? no bro you are wrong.

[-] 0 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 11 months ago

We are having two different conversations.

You don't need money to grow a garden or talk to your neighbors.

You need more money to get out of poverty.

[-] -2 points by itsmyblood (10) 11 months ago

wrong.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (17839) 11 months ago

For deeper insights into ''The Current System'', please consider the following rather excellent doc. film :

This exceptional doc. film will NOT be available for long I fear, so please avail yourself of it asap & pdq ~

fiat lux ...

[-] 2 points by forourfutures (393) 11 months ago

The right to alter or abolish is already law, in fact it appears to be our first constitutional right. Time to use it.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 11 months ago

What we need to replace is the sense ( especially in OWS ) that everything is broken and we can replace it.
Virtually every country has different problems and needs different solutions. But if we just start at America -
SPECIFICALLY - repair of what American problems cannot be initiated with the complete implementation of HJR29:

Bill HR 29 Constitutional Amendment XXVIII Introduced in Congress
by Rep. Rick Nolan (D-MN) & Rep. Mark Pocan (D-WI)


Section 1.
Artificial Entities Such as Corporations Do Not Have Constitutional Rights
The rights protected by the Constitution of the United States are the rights of natural persons only. Artificial entities established by the laws of any State, the United States, or any foreign state shall have no rights under this Constitution and are subject to regulation by the People, through Federal, State, or local law. The privileges of artificial entities shall be determined by the People, through Federal, State, or local law, and shall not be construed to be inherent or inalienable.

Section 2.
Money is Not Free Speech
Federal, State, and local government shall regulate, limit, or prohibit contributions and expenditures, including a candidate's own contributions and expenditures, to ensure that all citizens, regardless of their economic status, have access to the political process, and that no person gains, as a result of their money, substantially more access or ability to influence in any way the election of any candidate for public office or any ballot measure. Federal, State, and local government shall require that any permissible contributions and expenditures be publicly disclosed. The judiciary shall not construe the spending of money to influence elections to be speech under the First Amendment.


Consider your key project – jobs, military, elections, education, tax reform –
ANYTHING
Now imagine that the 1% opposition cannot spend to get their way against you


This responds to hundreds of local & state resolutions and Move To Amend for a “We the People” Amendment - The movement for constitutional reforms that would end “corporate rule”. The Amendment clearly and unequivocally states that: Rights recognized under the Constitution belong to human beings only, and not to government-created artificial legal entities – including corporations, unions, and parties. and that Political campaign spending is not a form of speech protected under the First Amendment. Government belongs to the people & must not be for sale to the corporations and the wealthy and the 1% special interests. The Move To Amend coalition of nearly 260,000 people and hundreds of organizations has helped to pass nearly 500 resolutions in municipalities and local governments across the country calling on the state and federal governments to adopt this amendment. This bill is specifically different from the other proposals that have come forward in response to Citizens United because it also specifically addresses corporate personhhod. In every single community where Americans have had the opportunity to call for a Constitutional amendment to outlaw corporate personhood, they have voted to end “CP”. The Citizens United decision is not the cause, it is a symptom. We must remove big money and special interests from the legal and political process entirely with this amendment.

If you want to understand

Citizens United &
Corporate Personhood &
the Amendment Process &
the proposed Amendments

Please visit our OWS Amendment site:
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com
70+ videos & 40+ documents on this issue
from Sanders, Chomsky, Maher, Hedges, Lessig,
Warren, Grayson, Hartmann, Hightower, Nader, etc
[and ron paul & Willard!]

►►Support this bill HR29◄◄
Write & email your congresspeople
house:
http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/
senate:
http://www.senate.gov/reference/common/faq/How_to_contact_senators.htm

Rep Rick Nolan 202 225 6211


.Those who can't - rant
...Those who can - DO
.
.If you really want to DO something -
...let your senators and congresspeople
...know what you want done.
.
.Even if you do not know their names
...you can call them at 202-224-3121
.
.write to your congressperson:
...US House , Washington DC 20515
. .write to your senator
...US Senate , Washington DC 20510
.
.each member has their own website for email

.


.The White House
...http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/submit-questions-and-comments
...The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW.Washington, DC 20500
...Comments: 202-456-1111 Switchboard: 202-456-1414


[-] 2 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 11 months ago

The ones who care what we think are already doing their best; the others are too busy enacting laws that keep many of the voters out of the voting booth. Still more are simply paid more to be against something. No congressperson will lose anything by obeying the moneyed class. We need to get people to vote in the next election if you want to start changing how the current system works.

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 11 months ago

Oh! No!
dont vote - thats what david & charlie command

[+] -7 points by itsmyblood (10) 11 months ago

no we need to get rid of turds like you who still think reform is possible. you can't fix stupid, stupid.

[-] 3 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 11 months ago

I guess you believe me to be a turd and stupid, and of course, you have every right to draw such conclusions. However, I am not suggesting we can fix the system, but we should do anything we can to stop it from doing more harm until we can do something better.

[-] -1 points by bensdad (8977) 11 months ago

██████░████.░░.█████.░░█░░░░░ █
░░ █░░░ █░░░█░ █░░░░█ ░.█░░░░░ █
░░ █░░░ █░░░█░ █░░░░█ ░.█░░░░░ █
░░ █░░░ ████░░ █░░░░█ ░.█░░░░░ █
░░ █░░░ █░░.█░░█░░░░█ ░.█░░░░░ █
░░ █░░░ █░░░█░ █░░░░█ ░.█░░░░░ █
░░ █░░░ █░░░█░ █░░░░█ ░.█░░░░░ █
░░ █░░░ █░░░█.░.█████ ░░█████░ █████


Do you have a TROLL problem?

here are some of its “tells” ►
attacking the poster - not the post
name calling rather than reasoning
using vulgarity in stead of sanity
ranting about a source rather than the facts
accusing the poster of being a ---------------
"re-interpreting" the post rather than quoting it ( ala faux noose )
using a gross generalization to “prove” a specific
lying [ often obviously ]
changing the subject
using mccarthyite accusations
afraid to answer questions


you could buy a mongoose or a roach motel, but here is a better way:
………………….THE TROLL solution ►
………………………………….IGNORE ANY POSTS FROM THE TROLL


[+] -4 points by GirlFriday (17440) 11 months ago

Pffttt.....ok. Everybody sit on their asses, per Phanya. Unless, you are creating a cool video game.

[-] 2 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 11 months ago

Working with communities to become independent now is not sitting on one's ass. It is putting one's attention to new ways of governance, economies, etc., sharing what works with others. A video game that requires cooperation to achieve a goal instead of promoting violence as a solution would probably help, actually.

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (17440) 11 months ago

Meta talking. Ah...........what communities need is to have is funding reinstated in the programs. Public schools, access to health care and access to mental health care, transportation, housing and access to jobs. Jobs that do not screw you around. AND the ability to walk down the street without being shot.

[+] -7 points by itsmyblood (10) 11 months ago

you should know that girlfriday is a democrat hack who worships at the alter of obama. so expecting her to have out of the box thinking is well thinking out of the box.

[-] 2 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 11 months ago

I was an Obama fan, as well. He has no real power, and in trying to get something done, betrayed his own ideals -- and that is disappointing. I really believe things happen for the best, and his presidency has held everything at bay until we the people can figure out our next step. It is always good to be challenged by someone who ridicules. It helps me firm up my own ideas when I have to explain them to someone who disagrees. It is not about convincing them they are wrong or I am right; it is about questioning my own ideas and, in some cases, modifying them.

[+] -4 points by itsmyblood (10) 11 months ago

obama is a globalist hack who has to a T carried out the same agenda as george w bush. the same agenda that clinton/biden or bush/cruz will push. wake up none of the politicians in washington with the exception of bernie sanders is worth a shit. that goes for franken, warren, and grayson they all support frankenfoods. wake up no political saviors will ever come from either party.

[-] 2 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 11 months ago

Did you see the tense of my first sentence?

[-] -3 points by itsmyblood (10) 11 months ago

the thing is he does have real power, he is practically a dictator.

[-] 1 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 11 months ago

I'm not so sure there is any real power to do anything but make noise and sign executive orders, which can be overturned by the next guy. Who is he dictating to? What is he dictating? I also do not think anyone goes into politics hoping to ruin the country or turn it over to some kind of world government. I am not big on conspiracy theories, but I do believe the banks and munitions folks have been running everything for a very long time, and politicians toe the line or die, either politically or physically, whichever is required.

[-] -3 points by itsmyblood (10) 11 months ago

you don't have to believe in conspiracies for the them to be 100% true.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17440) 11 months ago

You're such a piece of shit. Really, you are.

[-] 0 points by itsmyblood (10) 11 months ago

you mean you don't love me?

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17440) 11 months ago

........in a cement overcoat kind-a-way.

[-] 0 points by shooz (17944) 11 months ago

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/08/03/45-quotes-to-use-when-describing-conservatives-and-republicans-to-your-friends/

I guess that would make you the box.........................:)

I for one, think outside of you every single day.

[+] -5 points by itsmyblood (10) 11 months ago

no what it makes me is aware of reality something democrats and conservatives tend to avoid, bet you think you are clever. you are not. you are just another obama hack.

[-] -1 points by shooz (17944) 11 months ago

That made me aware that you didn't read them.

So what kind of hack do you consider yourself?

Oh, and if you are going to make such an accusation?

Please provide a link to prove it.

Or continue to be considered a box, that can't be thought outside of.

[+] -5 points by itsmyblood (10) 11 months ago

i am a seeker of truth, knowledge, and wisdom. that is the box within which i reside. come join me.

[-] -1 points by shooz (17944) 11 months ago

No thanks. I don't care for thinking in boxes. But hey......enjoy.

Now about that link. You didn't provide it.

[+] -6 points by itsmyblood (10) 11 months ago

fuck you and your links. go choke on a link asshole. keep your head stuck up your ass while you are at it.

[-] -2 points by shooz (17944) 11 months ago

Oh my. Such fear and misplaced anger are the result of living and thinking inside your box.

Links won't hurt you, they will inform you.

It's a shame that you fear them.

Now as to your accusations?

That's the link, or quote I'm asking for from you.

Let me ask you this.

If you were to be banned for such an offensive and off topic comment ( I would believe, deservedly so.), would you then create another nameplate to continue your in the box offensiveness?

Because that too, would be a shame.