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Forum Post: What CHANGE would you like to see? And also ....

Posted 1 year ago on Nov. 25, 2012, 1:58 a.m. EST by billyx (72)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

...what would you be willing to do/give to see it happen?

What would help you?

We cried 'We are the 99%'...but the truth was we were a small% of the 99% who Occupied. The larger part of the 99% continued in varying degrees with their lives... status quo.
Maybe it is more positive to say that NONE of us are the 99%..we are ALL ONE. If we are then maybe it is foolish to fight anything...but rather examine who we are, what we can do and what we are willing to give, and maybe also what we need help with to achieve that change together

Please give heartfelt replies to the questions..I am humbly interested in your response

SO FAR most posts are not answering the Q's I have posed. Please read again

45 Comments

45 Comments


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[-] 4 points by shooz (26598) 1 year ago

The first step towards significant change is in my opinion, the same as it's been for some time now.

Get the money out. Whatever it takes.

Until that happens the kind of pointless arguing you see here will continue.

Until that happens, elections will become more and more about corporate goals, and less and less about what is good for the nation and it's people.

[-] 0 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

Shooz...As an ex banker and Occupier I disagree...and to try to get the money out will only encourage strife for the participants. The money has no value other than that that is perceived and by saying get it out we are being complicate in accepting its reality. That is why I am interested in being involved in creating an alternative way of looking at the issue and hence the questions. I would love to hear your answers to them

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

billyx - sorry to be insulting but your attitude seems based on myths and dreams - one of OWS's biggest flaws
REALITY & POLITICAL POWER - contrary to OWS "ethics" is what works
If we had acknowledged that, we could have elected a house that could have cut defense, outlawed fracking, improved education, created jobs, taxed the rich. We were too centered on process and not on actual goals
ending corporate personhood & citizens united is the BIGGEST change we can make. You want to know what could help ME?
I have been an ACTIVE NYC OWS worker for 14 motnhs.
I can tell you - from my OWN experiences - we need leaders and structures.
At least 60% of my time working in OWS was wasted because of "process" "consensus" "leaderlessness"
Here is what I have done because no structure or leaders could do it:

http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 1 year ago

Political power seems to be the only solution, but don't forget that this is a game which continues to be invented. Meanwhile reality and life are amused to be watching us make fools of ourselves. The most powerful thing is the mass. Nothing changes because we are still being herded by the dynamics around us, like an avalanche.

Not saying political victories wouldn't shape the system around us to help steer things for the better. Just that getting through to the mass can accomplish anything, including those victories. Just saying for the sake of saying. All of us know too well that more support is vital.

You're website still isn't working for me, am i the only one reporting that?

[-] 1 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

Bensdad.... Not insulted my brother. I empathise with the frustration. I still feel that playing against a structure so embedded is a less useful way of using energy. It is clear it doesn't want to change voluntarily at this stage, so I am more in favour of putting my energy into what I have witnessed evoking change...that is doing the difference. I have lived without a bank account for 14years...I utilise money very little. As for Occupy...I believe the togetherness is what is missing...this usually comes with a leader or defined objectives...the camps wre the magic for me...I was in Amserdam for the duration. As for dreams...possibly they are that...but without a vision that skips the inherent problems and ways of thinking that we have been indoctrinated with...it is hard to imagine breaking the cycle. Bd...sounds like you are a doer...what are your skils and passions? Here is a favourite poem...by Emily Dickinson

To make a prairie it takes a clover and one bee,

One clover, and a bee, And revery,

The revery alone will do, If bees are few.

Interestingly the word revery which in part means a trancelike dream state...has a hebrew root meaning 'they camped'. I hope to work with you

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

You obviously have a poet's heart
I don't
live and let live
I see what tea potty did in 2010 to take over the Rs
Not that I want to "take over" the Ds but imagine ( oops ) what America would be like with 50 more Bernies & Elizabeths & Sherrods in congress

[-] 1 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

....and your skills and passion???

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

I have been trying to get NYC OWS to accept leaders & political power as the best route.
"My site"
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com

[-] 1 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

Had a look. It is clearly a passion of yours. Who, what is OWS? I truely believe that corruption would ensue any political engagement...saw it happen very quickly in the early stages of Occupy. As for leaders...ör directors...find me a sane one and I'll support. What else do you do...work..etc?

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

An amendment is supported by 100 congressmen & senators & 1309 mayors & over 1000000 petition signers Leader = Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Feingold, Reich

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

You may want to redo that site if you want it to be a hub for the topic.

[-] 2 points by shooz (26598) 1 year ago

Strife for whom?

If you feel money has no value, I can see why you're an ex-banker.

Until such time as we can replace that system with something better, I myself, have to continue to use it, like it or not.

If you are saying you have no problem with the steeply rising expense Citizens United has placed on our electoral process. I strongly disagree with you.

We the people are the ones who are saddled with 100% of that cost.

My statement to get the money out, as the first step, remains.

[-] 1 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

Please read again my comment...I am not your enemy.

[-] 1 points by shooz (26598) 1 year ago

Then explain yourself.

The OP is rather cryptic, and I did give you my honest reaction.

You could also answer the question hchc and I asked of you.

Strife for whom?

[-] 0 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

I appreciate your honest reaction. Well if we are all part of the whole then strife for one is strife for the other. Now that is not to say that the one or the other are willing to admit it, or act upon it. It seems more to the contrary in our present world...that we would prefer to hold ground...thereby continuing the strife. I am NOT condoning the suffering and the struggling at the hands of anyone. Sometimes however it seems we do not make a sufficient distinction between ours and others suffering. I think if we looked more deeply into our own we would be better placed to see what may be truly going on and so subsequently see solutions that would benefit all. Please know that I believe there are those that seem to hunt evil...control etc. I am glad it is not me. The reason for the questions is because they are ones that all the 99% might engage in answering and may reveal some clarity. I would love to hear your answers.

[-] 1 points by shooz (26598) 1 year ago

You might love to hear my answers, but first you have to ask a question and I don't see a single question mark in that dense text you've provided..

Will you now answer my question?

I've asked it twice and will not respond again if it remains unanswered.

Nor will I repeat it here, as I'm not the only one who asked it of you.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Getting money out is one of the only things that people, not politicians, all seem to agree on. How would this cause strife?

We cant pay them 160k a year and have others paying them millions and expect to get the same level of service. Its human nature.

[-] 1 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

It may cause strife because the military complex is supporting those that don't seem to want this. I agree with your second comment. What is more interesting for me is to see the issue from a totally different perspective...that is not to say I want to ignore the facts you stated. Maybe creatively together we can discover ways to break the potency of the situation. I think that has started to occur...Rolling Jubilee, O Sandy etc...but I sense there are much more possibilities

[-] 2 points by llee611838 (2) 1 year ago

Right now almost all business reporting consists of watching Wall Street. It is easy because it is quantifyable and you have a number to report each day. The problem is that it creates the impression that whatever is good for Wall Street is by definition good for everyone. So if someone like Elizabeth Warren were to get banking reforms and consumer protections passed that might benefit Americans as a whole but might reduce some Wall Street profits and the market reacts it tends to be shown as evidence that this is bad for the economy and for all people. The answer to this, I think, is to get the news networks to start balancing market results with other measures of economic health and well being. I am not an economist, so I would love to hear suggestions as to the kinds of measures that could be used. Something that would be more holistic, that could be regularly quantified and monitored, something that we could advocate the media outlets use and that might have a chance of being part of standard reporting. Ideas?

[-] 1 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

Yes...Please answer the questions posed

[-] 2 points by lisa (425) 1 year ago

People have stress filled jobs, long commutes they have no time or energy to get involved in OWS. In NY, people are awake 2 hours before they have to be in work, to get ready and sit in traffic, and they have at least 1 or more hours of traffic at night, so right there is 11-12 hours of a day, then they have to deal with their family or other obligations, there is no extra time without it becoming 17 hour days. That's why they muddle along as the status quo.

[-] 1 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

Lisa..Thanks. I am honestly and humbly just asking for a personal answer to the question.... There is no criticism or judgement of any persons personal circumstance. Maybe an additional question might be what help do you need to achieve that?

[-] 0 points by lisa (425) 1 year ago

I think there is so much misery, evil, collusion on a global scale even if we can organize the communities to get people involved at the community level, we just do not have the power to unseat the global elite and their agenda, which is pretty much be their slaves or they will find a way to eliminate you. They built the FEMA camps for those who won't submit. They have all the money, they run the media, the banks and all the businesses. The first thing I want to see is the people of this country actually having a voice, but even protesters are now deemed domestic terrorists, we don't even have the legal right to object anymore. I want to see elected officals who do not let the govt. wage wars nobody wants. We have no power in our own govt. How many people in this country agree with our foreign policies and interventions (ie. drones) in other countries? Half the people don't even know what goes on, they only know what CNN or Fox reports and the Council on Foreign Relations controls the media. The only reason they allow social media is to spy on people. That's freedom? When the dollar goes down and the financial system collapses do you really think they will play fair and give us a resource based economy with fairness for all? They haven't been fair so far, why would they change?

[-] 1 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

I empathise with the frustration. I feel that playing against a structure so embedded is a less useful way of using energy. It is clear it doesn't want to change voluntarily at this stage, so I am more in favour of putting my energy into what I have witnessed evoking change...that is doing the difference. I have lived without a bank account for 14years...I utilise money very little. As for Occupy...I believe the togetherness is what is missing presently...this ...the camps were the magic for me in this togetherness...I was in Amserdam for the duration. Lisa...sounds like you are a doer...what are your skils and passions? Here is a favourite poem...by Emily Dickinson

To make a prairie it takes a clover and one bee,

One clover, and a bee, And revery,

The revery alone will do, If bees are few.

Interestingly the word revery which in part means a trancelike dream state...has a hebrew root meaning 'they camped'. I hope to work with you

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 1 year ago

I would like to see the American people have more say in their government.

A diagram of Government 2.0 is located 2/3's down this page:

http://osixs.org/Rev2_menu_commonsense.aspx

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Just to clarify. "We are the 99%" does not mean we are the ENTIRE 99%. It means we are each among the 99%. That we support change that benefits the 99%.

Obviously we are all 1 people, and we recognize and welcome the 1%'rs who support the change that benefits the 99%. We also must focus our efforts at getting the 1% to be willing to give (since they have NOT given anything to resolve the crises THEY created).

What am I willing to give? I am willing to give my time and effort to protest on the street for change that benefits the 99%.

Hows that? Are you with us?

[-] 1 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

Thanks so much for answering the q. I am clear...but whether i am or not may be besides the point and that is what I wanted to stress...Our imagined 99% was not that being imagined by the populace...it was for many the turn off. My parents spoke of exactly the same thing in the 60's. But by saying we are all 1...we isolate noone. So of course I am with US...and I mean this from my heart. As to the 1% of the us, I agree with you...but protesting against may not be the most effective solution...it creates the duality..am how can we separate ourselves? I worked hard on camp to devise ways to be inclusive of all ... I am ready for the next stage after a sabbatical. VQ would like to talk more with you.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I believe we are 1 people. We will succeed when enough of us act that way. I am encouraged when 1%'rs come out in support of the progressive change that will benefit those struggling (the 99%).

Too many of the 99% do not feel the struggle and see the movement as one that encourages lazy loafers who want free things without work.

This is because of propaganda from those (the 1%) who are against progressive change that benefits the 99%. It is untrue.

We need to be 1 people but we cannot achieve that by being silent about who is against us. We can't pretend that we are 1 when we are being attacked, exploited, and oppressed by a small group who do not feel we are 1 people

[-] 1 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

Agreed. All the protesting AGAINST in history, what truly gets achieved? This is not to say I am against protest... By viewing the problem differently however we might be able spot opportunities...by being 1 in our perception a door is opened. It helped and helps to have others who at least want this. That is my attempt here...to simplify our reality...to ask some q's we can answer without getting bogged down with political discourse. Do you have ideas as to actions that can be inclusive?

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I think our efforts with Occupy Sandy is inclusive, The medical debt Jubillee as well. In fact many Occupy efforts are inclusive. Which is not to say others do not label them as anti rich people, or exclusive.

I of course do not subscribe to those labels.

Much of what OWS does struggles to stay clear of politics and political labels.

I support OWS efforts in that regard while I also recognize that politicians ARE in control. Some politicians support progressive change that benefits the 99%. Others are against. I stand with the pols that support that change.

I stand for replacing any pol who is against that change.

So we should grow groups that stand FOR replacing any pol who is AGAINST the inclusiveness that progressive change represents, any pol who does not behave like we are 1 people must be replaced.

[-] 1 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

OK. I like. And action that do not involve politics at all. I am interested in being part of such a group

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

OWS is uninvolved in politics. You should be very comfortable there.

I support that and support working with groups pressuring politicians for change that benefits the 99% also.

[-] 1 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

I wish that were the case... What was in your eyes the most effective protest you have been involved in?

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

God. There been so many. My 1st against the SST! was a success.

Not the ERA, Or MX, but definitely the anti Aparthied, and pro AIDS research marchs were successful.

Pro choice marches have held the line pretty well, Anti war is always hard to show success. I think the change in public opinion regarding the Iran/afghan wars represents a success. but the failure to end the wars earlier indicate otherwise. But I consider that movement a success.

Most recently the OWS protest have been very successful since the whole country has embraced the concept of fairness for the 99%.
We stopped the right wing momentum in 2010 that tried to focus on deficit/debt/austerity instead of jobs/stimulus/economic equity.

I've been involved with other protests. Too many to list. Some successful, others less so.

Have you ever been involved with successful protests? ANY protests?

[-] 0 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

Have never thought of myself as a protestor or been one in the traditional sense...I am however an activist. I used to be a banker...but have spent the last twelve years living without or with very little money. I lived in Costa Rica 8 years and spent time learning from indigenous and experimenting with living sustainably. Showing others by example some possibilities. Last year I felt the urge for change and landed in the middle of Occupy Amsterdam camp. What attracted me was the organic nature of the movement springing up simultaneously all over the world. I have experimented with ideas to reduce the potency of money and the system. I have seen some amazing localised successes...and am interested in forwarding that way of thinking and acting

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

And let me say that the worldwide nature of OWS is a measure ofsuccess as well.

It's only been a year. We must be patient, We must expect years of hard work in the street and within the system. We must expect slow progress and setbacks.

Nothing good is easy.

Now we must focus some energy on showing all people that elections are not enough. What we do in between elections is more important. If we can get more people to stay engaged with their society at all time we will have achieved a great success.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

1% of the local Tampa community coming down would have been 30k people. The most we got on a one day rally was around 2k. So our highest turnout would have been less than 0.1%. That is really freaking discouraging.

That being said, it only takes a small group of very dedicated people to affect change.

I believe we need alternate media to shock the people back into reality, and the internet just isnt cutting it. As far as what i would give, time and money. And ive spent a shit ton of both the last few years (and i dont really make that much money).

[-] 1 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

Thank you for seeing a reality about the numbers. I am not discouraged. The q's I have posted above might enthusiastically be answered by all the 99%.and a simple none political way to engage others in the debate. I was fortunate enough to spend much of my time at the info desk on camp. It was an amazing education.

[-] -1 points by RedDragon (-161) 1 year ago

Change? I'd like to see longer summer seasons accompanied by whiter winters.

[-] 2 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

There is a simple answer for you...spend summer in the tropics and winter in Alaska

[-] -2 points by RedDragon (-161) 1 year ago

Virtually all issues here are economic. We are all 1%ers. If we were not we'd be donating the money we earn to those who want it most.

[-] 2 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

We are all 1, was my comment...not we are all 1%ers. What about your heartfelt answers to the questions posed? I want to hear

[-] -2 points by RedDragon (-161) 1 year ago

Again these are all personal economic issues. The only thing that will help any of us is a whole lotta money, enough not only for ourselves, but also family and friends. And this is why the 1% enjoy... we are all 1%. The only way you can change this is to roll us back to pre-civilization.

[-] 3 points by billyx (72) 1 year ago

I am sorry you are refusing to answer the questions I have posted....but rather making up one of your own. I also almost entirely disagree with your last post...but that might only an opportunity to see things differently

[-] 0 points by RedDragon (-161) 1 year ago

The only change I want to see is in monetary policy. And truthfully I am hoping I don't have to contribute anything. Because I am not really in favor of violence.