Forum Post: Welcome to Globalization.
Posted 11 years ago on Aug. 18, 2012, 10:51 a.m. EST by hchc
(3297)
from Tampa, FL
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they trick people into supporting outsourcing by using words like
"free trade agreements"
This is what OWSers simply do not understand. THIS is the real issue.
Incredible debate between sealyon and DKA. This is what this shit is about.
Increasing knowledge.
Occupy Mindz.
Love zerohedge! Great article!
Let the party puppets digest some monetary numbers instead of party lines for a while.
the more they do that, the bigger the group tha twants change becomes...
This country was, and still is, being sold out. Totally drained.
Where the capital is going to congest in the future?
Do you own a foreign car? Do you buy French wine or Italian cheese? Have you recently purchased a computer, MP3 player, TV, or mobile phone?
If the answer to any of these questions is yes then you are personally responsible for outsourcing US jobs.
That said we only import about 15% of the stuff that we use or export in the US. Half of that is oil so we make 93% of the other stuff that we consume or export. Not too shabby.
The outsourcing of jobs is due to the fact that business can take advantage of using pennies a day foreign sweatshop labor and bring the products back to the states at a substantial profit. This will only be stopped when these products are forced to compete on the same level as domestically made products. Complete foreign imports should be playing on that same field. Competition and variety are not bad things. Allowing domestically made products to be undercut is a Bad Thing!
When you buy foreign products you are outsourcing. In fact US consumers outsource about three times as much as the Fortune 500 corps combined.
What is needed - is a level playing field.
So Again:
The outsourcing of jobs is due to the fact that business can take advantage of using pennies a day foreign sweatshop labor and bring the products back to the states at a substantial profit. This will only be stopped when these products are forced to compete on the same level as domestically made products. Complete foreign imports should be playing on that same field. Competition and variety are not bad things. Allowing domestically made products to be undercut is a Bad Thing!
So place a huge tariff on imported goods?
Yes - imported and outsourced - make it as expensive to do business here - as expensive as it is to operate business here.
Should NYC put a tarriff on peaches from Macon GA until they cost the same as peaches produced on Long Island?
Are peaches produced for sale on long island? Are they enough to satisfy the market? Do they rot on the shelves because they are too expensive? States do have cross boarder regulations.
The price of land and the cost of labor on Long Island long ago doomed the many peach orchards there. That is the point. GA has an advantage over LI in the growing of peaches. Should we place a tariff on GA peaches high enough to make it affordable to again produce them on LI?
There are interstate commerce laws and regulations. And like I said the economy needs to be protected. All states should have the same business/labor/economic/real-estate/labor/environmental practices ( did I mention Labor? ) and costs. That would be in keeping with the ideal of a "united" Nation - the "United" States of America.
A level USA domestic business playing field.
How can the costs be the same if the price of land on LI is 20 times the price in GA?
Once Again:
All states should have the same business/labor/economic/real-estate/labor/environmental practices ( did I mention Labor? ) and costs. That would be in keeping with the ideal of a "united" Nation - the "United" States of America.
A level USA domestic business playing field.
The cost of living is different in different states as is the cost to produce a particular product. There are no maple trees in FL. Should VT be forced to charge more for syrup so that FL can compete?
Land is not equal, people are not equal, and production costs are not equal.
Wow - R U OK? I mean U kinda fell flat on your face running full tilt on that one. OOO that's gotta hurt.
ONE MORE TIME :
All states should have the same business/labor/economic/real-estate/labor/environmental practices ( did I mention Labor? ) and costs. That would be in keeping with the ideal of a "united" Nation - the "United" States of America.
A level USA domestic business playing field.
Its not the united nation, its states. A state is its own entit.
Occupy is decentralized. Its power to the people. Against all forms of centralized power. Get on board or get out of the way.
But they don't and they can't.
Land in one state may be more fertile and productive and therefore more valuable than land in another state. Land is not equal just like people are not equal. It is actually unusual to find things that are truly equal. Elemental examples like gold come to mind but complex things are rarely equal.
Good thing we have trade then - Hey? Too bad it is not done on a level playing field.
[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (500) 0 minutes ago
Finally we agree. Some land is valuable and some land is as you say, worthless.
That is beacuse all things are not equal. Consequently they have different value so the cost of producing a thing in one place is intrinsicly greater than in other places. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
Trade is a good thing. It helps prevent wars.
People, like land, are also unequal. And unequal people is the greatest factor in determining whether a corp will be successful.
Suppose the top 10 romance novel writers in CA decide to form a corp and pool their efforts. They form the Greater Oaklyn Organization of Dramatists (GOOD). Some writers in MA see this and decide to form their own corp, the Boston Association of Drafters (BAD).
Now the GOOD writers are very talented and together can crank out books with very little effort that everyone wants to read at a lower cost than the Bad writers; and they can charge more for them. The Bad writers struggle. They toil for months and can't sell a book.
What can or should be done about this? Should CA force consumers to buy the Bad books so that there is a level playing feild? Or maybe they should force GOOD to pay their millionaire authors more so that their costs are the same as the Bad corp?
Again with a lame comment. 1st - what lies beneath the Gobi desert? 2nd land deemed and found to be worthless will not find a buyer.
[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (497) 13 minutes ago
Don't you believe in the intrinsic value of a thing?
Is it not reasonable that land rich and fertile with a good water supply is more valuable than land in the middle of the Gobi desert? ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
ONE MORE TIME :
All states should have the same business/labor/economic/real-estate/labor/environmental practices ( did I mention Labor? ) and costs. That would be in keeping with the ideal of a "united" Nation - the "United" States of America.
A level USA domestic business playing field.
Finally we agree. Some land is valuable and some land is as you say, worthless.
That is beacuse all things are not equal. Consequently they have different value so the cost of producing a thing in one place is intrinsicly greater than in other places.
They don't and can't because people say they don't and can't and must have different value.
Don't you believe in the intrinsic value of a thing?
Is it not reasonable that land rich and fertile with a good water supply is more valuable than land in the middle of the Gobi desert?
So will you stop buying computers and mobile phones until there is a level playing feild? If you don't then you are contributing to the problem.
We have geater ability to influence the behavior of our trading partners if we trade. As the Frenh say, if goods don't cross your borders soldiers will.
So what R U saying(?) - as you seem to be confused.
At one moment it sounds as if you are saying buying any thing imported is a disservice to your country - It sounds as though you are saying that the USA should close it's borders and allow nothing out and nothing in.
Then when it is said that all imports need to compete on the same economic field - you say you can't do that cause it will bring war.
Then you get absurd again and say we need to trade. Which is what I said - only I said to trade on a level basis - no country should have their domestic product undercut by foreign products or outsourced products.
So exactly - where the hell are you on this issue? Hhmmmm?
Second, this forum is replete with posts about corporate outsourcing typed out on computers and smart phones produced in China, Maylasia, and Vietnam. The purchase of each device is an exercise in personal outsourcing by the author. The outrage over this issue can be better addressed by looking in the mirror than at US corps.
Poor argument.
Are you trying to get people to throw away an effective tool of organization/communication/protest ?
I think that it would be awesome if the products of economic and environmental abuser's - turned out to be the tools that end their abusive practices.
I agree with you!
Don't stop buying computers. Use that buying power to promote the change that you want to see. If a corp does something you don't like write a letter. Consumer feedback is important to them. Bad publicity is even more important.
Don't trust the Gov to have the capacity or inclination to get this right. Wars happen between governements not between people.
There are several issues tangled in your post.
First, there is often a geographic, technical, market, climactic, resource, or other advantage that one place or country has over another place or country in producing a particular product or service. That advantage is frequently not the cost of labor. How did Apple become the largest corp on the planet in one of the pricyest areas in the world? It is therefore neither practical nor desirable to force everyplace in the world to have exactly the same advantage. The level playing feild you want is not realizable. This is the folly of tariffs. They are tit-for-tat, school yard jingoistic tactics that start wars.
The smarter and more effective approach is to include the desired supplier behavior in your negotiations for the product that you plan to purchase. Only then do you have real power to get what you want.
Apple? Major labor/manufacturing out-source'er. China loves apple for the jobs/business/infrastructure and apple loves China for the dirt cheap labor.
Apple is not successful becuase of cheap labor in China (which is not so cheap anymore BTW). Manufactuing labor in China amounts to less than 2% of total Apple revenue. Apple is successful because they have great popular products that people want to own and for which are willing to pay a premium. It is for this reason that I don't own anything Apple. The value is not there.
Apple sales are increasing most rapidly today in of all places, China.
Third, free trade optimizes the benefit to the consumer. The freer the better. Most problems with free trade stem from Gov meddling, however well intended. Trade deficits are something of an illusion. In the end all accounts must balance.
Debt on the other hand can be a big problem, particularly at a time when deflation in some areas of the economy is a reality.
Is this related to the "free trade labor market" in the platinum mines of South Africa?
It didn't seem to help those consumers very much.
You mean the consumers of platinum?
BTW every car in the US uses platinum (or paladium found in the same mines) in the catalytic converter. When you buy a car you are supporting the oppression of South African miners.
Miners, in your World can not/should not also be consumers?
Just the mine owners, who get to actually consume the lives of the miners for their own profit?
Please leave your red herrings and strawmen out of the picture.
I've been calling for prison for the people that run corporations in this way, no matter what they make.
I think that we agree that worker mistreatment is wrong. We differ on what to do abour it. How can you change what goes on in SA mines? A lot of that metal is purchased by people in the US. Make better labor practices part of the negotiation for the sale.
But remember that you must be willing to pay for what you want. This change may add $500 to the price of your next car.
So, let them be mistreated until enough people write letters?
Even if that were to happen, the corporate leaders would just do it all over again elsewhere. That's what they do.
Why is it you always demand that the end consumer pay for their excess profits?
Every time.
Bullshit. Let the murders pay the cost in money and their freedom.
Do you really think that's the only mine run that way?
First of all excess profits is an oxymoron.
When you sell your used car or your house or your old bicycle to how do you make sure that you did not over charge? It is not possible. The price of a thing is exactly equal to what someone is willing to pay.
The only power that you have over the mine owners in SA and the Ipod factory owners in China is when you negotiate the purchase of their product. It is also a better way to produce the lasting change you want.
The markets will force noncompliant owners to conform or fail in the face of competition that meet your requirements.
But we as consumers bear a responsibiity when we buy stuff to make our requirements known. And sometimes we must pay a higher price for the improved product.
It's your belief that whatever you can talk someone into paying for something, is an honest price, is the oxymoron.
As big a lie as any told.
Except maybe for the one where you say you can negotiate what you pay for something.
It just doesn't happen in the real retail world.
Just to test that out, the next time you're in the dollar store, offer to pay 25 cents for each item instead and see how far you get..
You really do live in a world of illusions.
Interesting phenomenon happening today in US retail stores. People come in with their smart phones scan the merchandise like a shirt or TV, and then present the store clerk with a competitive price. Guess what? The stores are negotiating the price on the spot. This is happening now. Try it. Don't be disillusioned.
Not if we kick fossil fuel to the curb and go green. No need for a catalytic converter.
You really present some lame arguments.
You're right. Replace fossil fuels. That should not take too long.
If you purchase an auto while you're waiting however you are suppporting the oppressive practices in SA platinum mines.
Free trade does not exist - and for it to exist - there would need to be an equality of differing societal/governmental/environmental/economic systems and business/labor practices.
I agree with you that free trade does not exist. It is a goal. And that goal offers the best method yet devised to benefit the consumer.
It is also true that people are not equal. Some are short, some are tall, some are really smart, and some are excellent piano players. It is not possible nor, desirable to try to force people to be the same. Diversity is a good thing.
For that reason it is wrong to try to force people and their cultures and their beliefs to be equal. It is wrong to force them to accept your values and morals.
It is reasonable to negotiate with them over these issues. It is by happy coincidence the most effective method to pursuade them.
Cost of business is an effective negotiating tool.
Free trade does not exist - and for it to exist - there would need to be an equality of differing societal/governmental/environmental/economic systems and business/labor practices.
I agree that the cost of business is an effective negotiating tool. Many things affect the cost of business. The best result for the consumer comes from letting the market determine the cost of business.
For "free trade" to exist, "free markets" must also exist.
Since "free markets" are an illusion, an impossibility, "free trade" can't exist either.
It's like chasing economic rainbows.
.
The point is that free trade and free markets are good for consumers and we should promote them. Make them as free as possible.
It is like finding the perfect mate. Perfection is not possible but the closer you get the happier you will be. The lack of perfection should not however discourage the quest.
Good grief. No wonder communications with you are so damn complicated.
You believe in illusions.
You equate finding a mate, with buying crap at the store.
What's next from you coupons for schools?
What kind of coupons?
The rich folks still ain't lettin' your kid into their school.
They just want to steal more government money.
Next stop?
Coupons for granny's heath care!!!!!
BTW the money does not belong to the Gov so it is not possible to steal from them. The money belongs to the people.
Coupons are a great idea. Give the consumer power to decide which products are good and which are bad. Use the power of the market to force suppliers to produce better products and services.
Coupons you cash in for an education for your children.
And use them to send your child to the best school you can find like rich people do??
Excellent idea.
Ok, lets compile a list of the stuff I use on a daily basis. Maybe you are right:
Food: all from here Housing; all from here Energy: mostly from here Gas for the car: not sure, but prob not from here (canada and mex) cell phone minutes and interent' landed here- here.
Its all the consumer goods- the stuff we dont need. Right?
In response to the 1st part of your comment :
My comment - All states should have the same business/labor/economic/real-estate/labor/environmental practices ( did I mention Labor? ) and costs. That would be in keeping with the ideal of a "united" Nation - the "United" States of America.
A level USA domestic business playing field. - was not a statement of what we have - but what we should have.
In response to the 2nd part of your comment :
Principles of Solidarity
Declaration of the Occupation
[-] 0 points by hchc (1997) from Tampa, FL 0 minutes ago
Its not the united nation, its states. A state is its own entit.
Occupy is decentralized. Its power to the people. Against all forms of centralized power. Get on board or get out of the way. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
Excellent point. Most of the stuff (except for oil) that we import are not essential for life.
That is exactly my point. We choose to buy this stuff not because we need most of it, but because we want it.
Therefore if we object to the labor conditions in the factories that produce the stuff we should :
A. Negotiate better conditions for the workers B. Pay more for the stuff in exchange for better conditions C. Not buy the stuff in protest of the conditions