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Forum Post: We are the people: a declaration of solidarity with honest Americans driven homeless, while national traitors thrive within pillared walls. We are the outcry: how can this happen in America?

Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 11, 2011, 12:08 p.m. EST by Alternatives2WallSt (62)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

This is probably an outdated topic. I believe the Occupy movement has found its best focus in protesting foreclosures. Good going. Actions speak louder than words.

However I only just read the 'vision statement' of November 22 at MichaelMoore.com. http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/where-does-occupy-wall-street-go-here

I assume such statements have already evolved. Hopefully. In my opinion, that 10-point statement is much too long, sappy and over-defensive. It is like ten ways of saying, "I am not a witch." My own suggestion:

"We are the people: a declaration of solidarity with honest Americans driven homeless, while national traitors thrive within pillared walls. We are the outcry: how can this happen in America?"

By the way, Michael Moore then followed up those ten 'committee visions' with his own ten 'proposals.' Most of them good. All of which however are more than has been achieved since the founding of the republic. It is fine that Moore promotes awareness of everything in his books and movies. However when there is a movement going, I think it is time for focus. In my opinion, for what little it is worth, the following three are Moore's most relevant and most forceful suggestions.

  1. Investigate the crash of 2008, and bring to justice those who committed crimes. This seems Moore’s clearest and most relevant suggestion.

  2. Reinstate the Glass-Steagall Act, limiting the abilities to form large banks, thus returning us to the era when no banks were “too big to fail.” A worthy proposal but which needs a suggestion for improving the viability of small banks.

  3. Require all Americans to pay the same percentage of income to Social Security. Thus increasing the social security payments of millionaires from 0.6% to 6%. However it might be more practical, and also call more shame upon the opposition, to ask for millionaires to pay 1/2 what others pay, or only 3%. Since after all, so many voters seem to believe that millionaires are a special class that deserves extra privilege. (After we get them paying 3%, on the basis of their being a special class, then maybe we can discuss whether or not America should have a special class. If Americans don't want a special class, then maybe we get another 3%. One step at a time.)

The following three of Michael Moore’s proposals are also worth considering, but more difficult to achieve.

  1. Assess a penalty tax on moving American jobs overseas. However Moore suggests no such penalty for companies that are not profitable. It seems unclear how this might be put into practice and what the effect might be.

  2. End all foreign wars, and thus save $2 billion per year, and thus fix America’s roads and infrastructure. This might be good but Moore does not state it very clearly. He begins his suggestion #6 with a broad and undefined statement to “reorder our nation’s spending priorities.” Also, “ending all wars” this year says nothing about starting a new war next year. I suggest instead, “Strictly budget the foreign military budget to $1 billion.” This might have a better achievability, save plenty of pocket money, and serve better in the long-range future to confine military expenses to limited actions with broad-based support.

  3. The board of directors of large corporations must be partly elected by the company’s workers. Another erudite suggestion. However Moore demands that 50% of the board be worker-elected, claiming that this is successfully practiced in Germany. According to the German web page: Centre for Corporate Governance: German workers only elect 1/3 to 1/2 of the “Aufsichtsrat” which oversees the “Vorstand” which is the active management board. An American equivalent would seem to be 35% of the board, which would deliver significant leverage.

The remainder of Micheal Moore's proposals also are worthy of respect, but seem either far-fetched or to confine their appeal to left-wing sympathies. Michael Moore should of course continue to develop his views, but not suggest to confine or overburden the Occupy movement, the most unique value of which is its broad-based support.

However as I said, all of this seems rather outdated. I believe the Occupy movement has found its best focus in protesting foreclosures. Good going. Actions speak louder than words.

17 Comments

17 Comments


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[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 12 years ago

Interesting post.

[-] 2 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 12 years ago

I think the foreclosure strategy is the best thing OWS can do this winter too. I like the image of occupying the White House when the whole country gets foreclosed on!! Meanwhile the 99% can get those delegates elected for the NGA, time is short. What's so difficult about uniting behind the idea of a National General Assembly? What have we got to lose?? Do you think TPTB are worried about the cacophony they see here in this forum?

http://occupywallst.org/forum/876-leaders-republicrats-worst-nightmare-im-good-w/

[-] 1 points by Jflynn64 (337) 12 years ago

I'm not sure Michael Moore has ever run a business or employed more than 100 people. His comments are all about enacting more rules and regulations that try to fix problems like "sending jobs overseas". The public has stated that they like high quality goods at lower prices.

[-] 3 points by WorkerAntLyn (254) 12 years ago

Last I checked, we didn't get high quality good at lower prices. We got crappy goods at lower prices and proclaimed them high quality, even though we have to replace them so often we might as well have bought the more expensive one and saved ourselves money.

[-] 0 points by Jflynn64 (337) 12 years ago

That might be what you believe, however the public is voting with their dollars and they appear to love the goods they receive at a lower price. So how can we shift policy when the majority of people like it?

[-] 1 points by Alternatives2WallSt (62) 12 years ago

""I'm not sure Michael Moore has ever run a business or employed more than 100 people. His comments are all about enacting more rules and regulations...""

I like Michael Moore but that is a reasonable statement about Michael Moore. I also agree we are not getting quality goods nor do I think the Chinese people are in a happy situation. I am a Coffee Republican but I am surprised that Michael Moore, while calling himself socialist, seems to want to pit one country's workers against another. Fundamentally, America cannot maintain high living standards so long as the rest of the world is a slum.

To this end, Wall Street must be ended, not merely amended. The stock market is a slow-motion pyramid scheme which requires that billionaries always win more billions at the expense of the planet and all those at the bottom of the pyramid.

So instead of Moore's proposals, I have suggested: gradually phase out the stock market.

This may take 100 years but if we do not start now, life is unlikely to be worth living in 100 years. This can not be done quickly but might be done via a "long term capital gains tax" (stock market investing tax) increase of +1% every 4-8 years, meanwhile decreasing income tax for bonds and CD's -1%. This is in effect a tax on the true income of billionaires and the true reason that they become billionaires.

More details are posted here: http://occupytogether.com/forum/discussion/1891/this-1-tax-increase-1-deduction-might-do-more-for-people-planet-than-most-economic-proposals.

[-] 2 points by OccupyCentre (263) 12 years ago

Hi. I like what you are saying here. I am a long tern left winger, and through the Occupy Movement learning a lot. I have seen that many people that are not that rich want to say they are "conservative" as they somehow feel themselves to be above others (left wingers). It is egotistical in a way. I am certainly not including you in this group, by the way. I just wish the finest brains of the 99%, left and right would come together and sort out the bank executives and other corporate greedy people who are making life hell for us.

[-] 1 points by Jflynn64 (337) 12 years ago

I can't comment on the Chinese domestic situation as I don't live there, however the buying public seems to like the quality of the goods they receive or they wouldn't buy them.

I disagree with your comments regarding Wall Street as taxing equity in favor of bonds would only create a disequilibrium in the system.

Wall Street is just a funding system and if you eliminate it, private banks would pop up to fund opportunities. It has already happened since the merits of being public company are seen as detrimental. It is beginning to happen as well in the banking industry.

Overall quality of live has drastically improved over the past 100 years for everybody and capitalistic systems are probably responsible for that. It brought more people out of starvation and poverty in China than multiples of "the war on poverty"

[-] 1 points by Alternatives2WallSt (62) 12 years ago

To OCCUPYCENTRE: Hi. I am a Vermonter. We defy labels. We are traditionally Republicans but elected Bernie Sanders, the only socialist to serve in Washington. In Vermont, you do not get away with calling yourself conservative or pro-family and then gutting the educational system and bankrupting the independent farmer.

I might be a liberal or maybe even a Christian if enough Americans were interested in compassion or human rights. However so long as the poor are voting for the rich we might as well have some Republicans who are not used car salesmen but are serious about fiscal responsibility.

To J FLYNN. Your comment is thoughtful but only what everyone is taught in school. Quoting from my blog: ""The stock market is a powerful engine of initial development. However could not the same development be achieved with corporate bonds, only a bit more gradually and without the massive abuses and roller coaster rides? Is a system truly “flawless” that enables the governments and billionaires of Saudi Arabia, Japan and then China quickly to overshadow or partially own every major corporation of the planet?""

Some investment experts recommend a bond-only portfolio. Here is a tip: PRPFX TEGBX OIBCX TGINX PEBAX. These are mostly-bond funds which have yielded 11% to 14% annually over the past 10-15 years with minimal downturn in 2008. Meanwhile after three years, many equity funds have not yet rebounded from 2008. Disclosure: yes I own these and I am holding on.

To KELLI WANKENOBI. If you are a conservative who reads books, why do you imitate George Carlin. Wash out your mouth and learn how to express yourself.

Yes Obama makes big mistakes. The worst is simply not telling people like Michelle Bachman that success is American, but honest hard work is American too. Throw her words back in her face and ask her where is the consideration for the working people?

America needs motivated successful entrepreneurs. America also needs working people to whine when they are not getting a fair deal. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Whining is important and whining Democrats and liberals should be respected. Just please do not whine and swear and call yourself an entrepreneur or a Republican or a conservative or a patriot. That makes about as much sense as playing the Star Spangled Banner on the piano while singing La Marseillaise.

"Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country." --JFK

[-] 0 points by Jflynn64 (337) 12 years ago

I'm nor sure which of my comments were taught in school. Could companies fund themselves with just debt and not equity, sure but then risk would be higher since many companies don't have the income to pay regular dividend payments. If you suspend the dividend then it is just really equity.

I personally don't think you can ever eliminate equity fluctuations and market bubbles. Probably the best way to do it is sound monetary policy.

[-] 1 points by Alternatives2WallSt (62) 12 years ago

To J FLYNN. You are partly right this is a complex question. But ask first this. How can a system be sustained that depends on infinite growth? It cannot.

Sure bonds would have more risk if there were no stocks. They would also compete to offer higher rates. Stocks are not much different--except for tacking on to that a game of musical chairs.

""I personally don't think you can ever eliminate equity fluctuations and market bubbles."" You certainly can. Eliminate equities and eliminate the stock market. It is impossible to do this immediately. However adding 1% to long term capital gains is not going to hurt and will pay a lot of bills and head us in the right direction.

PS. And if we don't end the stock market, it will end itself and us, in the worst possible way.

[-] 0 points by Jflynn64 (337) 12 years ago

The private market will grow to take over the funding that comes from the stock market. It is already happening.

[-] 1 points by Alternatives2WallSt (62) 12 years ago

""The private market will grow to take over the funding that comes from the stock market.""

Sounds interesting. But what do you mean by 'the private market'?

[-] 0 points by Jflynn64 (337) 12 years ago

Large hedge funds, private equity funds and hard money lenders are already raising assets to lend money to small and mid size business since banks won't lend. In my opinion, this will be the way of the future as banks de-risk and become defacto utilities.

[-] 1 points by Alternatives2WallSt (62) 12 years ago

""Large hedge funds, private equity funds and hard money lenders are already raising assets to lend money to small and mid size business...""

If this is bond-like lending and not equities, that sounds like a good trend.

However the next step would be for nonprofit foundations to run these hedge funds. It is totally indecent to pay salaries like $1 million annually to Goldman Sachs type managers who cannot even keep their own house in order.

Any study of mutual funds shows these high paid managers have no more idea than a monkey of picking stocks. Bond funds are different. Some bond funds are shrewdly managed. However the point is, if the manager is paid $1 million, the brokerage is making millions. And managing those funds is not that difficult and could be done with reasonable salaries under a nonprofit foundation. If that money were sent to Greenpeace, or other constructive causes, imagine the good which could be done.

Note that there is no "big government" in what I just said. In fact this is perhaps my criticism of liberals and liberal causes. If they really wanted to save the planet, there are ways to do this to a serious degree, here and now, without protesting anything or petitioning anyone.

I am starting small mutual funds right now, which will send profits to Greenpeace or the equivalent. (Not technically mutual funds but called "mirrored accounts" -- about the same and a bit better.) But working alone it will take me perhaps 5 years to get a reputation going. I hope within one year some people will understand what I am doing and help it to develop faster. However everyone seems rather set within limited ideas. Sit-ins and protests are a tradition. Clobbering brokerages at their own game is not a tradition.

Also, there is a certain point that 'my hands are clean' seems more important than actually saving the planet. It may sound contradictory to liberals that I advocate phasing out the stock market and also am playing the stock market. Well I also am against casino gambling but as long as they are there, I don't mind counting the cards and beating them at their own game. Also I want to channel some money back to the environment, one way or the other. You might call it hedging my bets in favor of the planet.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 12 years ago

If those type things are proposed, you need to be an advocate for article 5.

Lessig power point on article V http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gpbfY-atMk

Lots of facts here about Article V. http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html

Article V conference, Lawrence Lessig at harvard 9/25/11-other attendee video comments http://vimeo.com/31464745

A post at a message board prepared with state forums. This post has a poll to appraise the understanding for a method of preparing for a proper convention.

http://articlevconvention.org/showthread.php?15-What-initial-amendments-will-improve-and-empower-the-conditions-of-a-convention

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