Forum Post: To the Detractors.
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 31, 2011, 3:54 p.m. EST by JonoLith
(467)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I’ve been discussing the issues of this movement with many people, and specifically with people who are detracting from the movement. I understand that I am just one voice, but I feel moved to attempt to encompass what it is this movement is standing for. This is specifically directed at those who think the movement is foolish, or uninspired, in an effort to create an understanding for us all. I try, very hard, to make points that are not debatable; that cannot be argued.
My intention is to inspire debate and have a meaningful discussion amongst all parties.
The Basics
We are all Human. We all Die. We have a short period of time on this earth. We create systems in order to maximize that time spent on earth. The system that we live in currently is called “Democracy.” It is actually a Republic.
The purpose of any created system is to see to the benefit of all people who are a part of said system. The only way to argue with this point is to reveal yourself as a psychopath, as it is intrinsic to the very structure of any fair and equal system. The system needs to be in place to ensure the maximum quality of life for all participants, regardless of the situation that they are born into.
This means that if a Citizen stumbles, or is harmed, or finds himself/herself in trouble, we will have a system that supports them, puts them back on their feet, and allows them to continue through life, unencumbered. It is the only Human thing to do.
Isn’t This System Seeking the Benefit of All?
That was it’s original intent. As stated by it’s creators.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
The unarguable intent, in short, is to see to the Well Being of All Citizens. This is not an “Us Vs. Them.” statement. This is a statement that encompasses all people regardless of anything. If you are an American Citizen, you are protected. (I tend to hold the world to these standards as well, as we are all Human.)
Right now the unemployment rate is around 9%. Right now the poverty rate is around 15%, which is up from around 14% in 2010. Right now the top 1% own around 40% of the wealth. Right now the bottom 80% own 7% of the wealth. Right now the Consumer Debt is 2.4 Trillion. Right now the National Debt is 15 Trillion. Right now the Student Debt is 1 Trillion. Right now the Credit Card Debt is 826 Billion.
These figures do not indicate an economy working for the Well Being of All Citizens.
Why is it this way?
This is a point that many people debate, and there are fingers to point all around. The truth, no matter how you slice it, is basic Human Greed. Whether you believe that the people who are in debt deserve it, or whether you believe it is the top 1%, or whether you believe it is the Fed, or the Government, or anything, the answer will always lead you to Human Greed.
To put it simply; people desire more then what they have. This is an extremely basic tenant of Humanity. Except that now, it’s no longer a sin to be Greedy. It’s a goal.
The Point The point of this movement, at it’s most basic core, is to remove Greed from the conversation. This can be illustrated very cleanly by the first statement that has come out of the movement. “Remove Money from Politics.” To phrase that differently, Abandon Greed.
What people haven’t honed in on is that Greed pervades our day to day lives. This is why the movement seems scattered. It is because it is fighting against Greed, and Greed has become embedded in everything we do every single day. It is in every policy that is made by every corporation, it is in every political document that gets passed, it is in every educational facility, and every household.
If you do not understand this movement it is not because the movement is crazy, or uninformed. It is because you are so awash in the system of Greed that you are blind to it’s effect on Humanity, and how it has debased and humiliated the majority of Citizens of the World.
Hard Work does not make Wealth in the Greed Based Economy. There are millions of people who work very hard, daily, to survive within this system, and they are dying. What's left of the middle class works very hard, and yet they are not Wealthy. The 80% of us that make less then 7% the total wealth work hard, and yet we are not wealthy.
We are ultimately a Society. If one of us is Wealthy, it is not because of his/her working hard. It is because Fortune/God/Chaos smiled on that person. They are Fortunate to have been put into the situation to be Wealthy. That is all. All Wealth is derived from the People. If we allow Greed to ruin this, then it will ruin our entire Society.
Help Build a Society. Abolish Greed.
You lost me here: "If one of us is Wealthy, it is not because of his/her working hard (Although they might have). It is because Fortune/God/Chaos smiled on that person."
WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP.
Fortune/God/Chaos smiled on me. My daddy was rich and I make money buying & selling stocks. Don't you wish you had my tax rate? Thank you ronnie and georgie. G I G
I used to believe in all that hard work stuff too. I used to work 14 hour days with a full-time and part time job, but I got sick of never seeing my daughter, not having any time for myself, and just relaxing. Now I just trade momentum for my account, my uncle, and a few others. I sit in front of a computer, watch the monitor a few hours in the morning and the afternoon and make more money in about 15 hours or less a week than I used to do in 14 hours per day. I made 7% on my triple DOW long last week for me and my friends. Hard work is truly for suckers! True, my dad worked long hours to give a middle-class life for us, but I hardly ever saw him, and that sucked, and when had that heart attack at 54, that really sucked. But hard work now-a-days? Seriously? I'm done at 4PM EVERYDAY. Some weeks, I'm good by Monday morning! I really can't help but laugh at this Hard Work pity party crap
You mean what a load of truth.
[Removed]
Heh
I do wish to be clear on that point. (And I may edit the article in order to do so.)
Hard Work does not make Wealth in the Greed Based Economy. There are millions of people who work very hard, daily, to survive within this system, and they are dying. What's left of the middle class works very hard, and yet they are not Wealthy. The 80% of us that make less then 7% the total wealth work hard, and yet we are not wealthy.
What is more important then Hard Work, in this system, is Fortune. People roll the dice of Fortune, and it comes up positive for them. It is Fortunate that the career choice they took ended up being profitable. It is Fortunate that the floor didn't fall out from underneath them, as it has for so many people.
Why is it that some people are laid off, and others aren't? Fortune. Why is it that a child born into a Wealthy family is Wealthy, and a child born to a Poor family is Poor. Fortune.
You can't deny Fortune at least plays it's part.
JonoLith, 'hillary' and 'MikeD' are both registered TROLLs. Don't get upset by anything they say.
Heh, thanks for the heads up, but I don't get riled up over trolls. I mainly feel sad for them, and offer them my condolences. I'm a big believer that Love begets Love, so I wish them well, and hope their life improves.
ah, that is very beautiful, and i mean that.
When I lay someone off I decide based on who is the least productive, I don't use dice or tarot cards. So the Fortune thing is, as a previous poster claimed, a load of crap.
So when an entire factory gets shut down, it is shut down because it is the least productive factory. And all the people working there must be the least productive people in the industry.
I wonder when we'll realize that Human Life is more important then Productivity.
You mean american human life of course. The Chinese with the new jobs don't count...
This is a facetious comment, and you know it. They have moved those factories to places like China and put those people into severe sweat shop conditions. The way they are being treated is as unacceptable as the way we are being treated.
factories treat them better than the rice fields treat them.
i don't see any other reason why people wouldn't return to the rice fields
The central bureaucracy controls all the productive land... often for export market cash crops... sound familiar....?
but they don't control the factories?
Heard of free trade zones...?
A better form of slavery is still slavery.
there's no such thing as freedom then.
i am a slave to my children. don't i wish i could throw them in the sea.
Children are excellent, fair, and just masters in most ways. And they give back what you give them down the track..... So why would you? We are all slaves to food, water, breathing and procreation. Everything else is constructed around that. All of these things are increasingly being controlled now by an entirely un-childlike master(s), who won't even engage in dialogue with his suffering underlings..... Googled S E R C O before...? Might give you some food for thought.
I think the Bible said it the clearest. Matthew 6:24 No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
And no matter how you cut it, you are a "Slave" to death. There is no such thing as true freedom. Fortune will always have it's way with you.
rightly said, i would like to add that being a slave to god is very liberating but very few ever experience this because it requires 100%.
First abolish slavery then vote in civil rights then become president. But the struggle continues until evolution extincts the neanderthals.
U been to china?
I read your post. I found it very insightful and well reasoned. You have obviosly done your reasearch. However, There are a few things I would like to point out. To provide some perspective i would like to point out that on average Americans are in the top 2% in wealth and quality of life. That is not to say that we do not have poverty or that we don't have an obligation to help those less fortunate than us. However, should that obligation be a legal one or a moral one? To me it seems that it is unfair to punish the rich simply for being rich and trying to get richer in a court of law. However, I do believe that we as citizens should inform ourselves in the practices of corporations and support the ones who's values match our own. Our economy is a democracy in the purest sense except that instead of ballots we have dollars. We have the freedom as American citizens to A: Inform ourselves B: make our views known and C: spend our money how we choose. This brings me to my next point: freedom. A great deal of the mess that our economy is in right now is directly related to the consumer. The start of the economic downturn is often considered to be the crash of the housing market. People were applying for loans they couldn't pay back for improvements they didn't need. I essentially aggree with you that the root of our problem is greed. But, let me ask you this: is it greed on the part of the banks and corporations that lead to our financial problem or was it our fault for aquiring so much debt in the first place without regard? To end on a positive note however, this has been the most rational argument I have found for the occupy wall street movement. Thankyou for taking the time to construct a rational and thoughtful argument. It is hard to find anything nowadays that isn't simply a rant against one straw man or another.
I believe it is society's greed everywhere being amplified by a system that rewards it. People are celebrities these days because their parents made money! It's very hard to be free when you are ignorant, and many americans (and aussies, kiwis, brits etc.) are either uninformed or misinformed when it comes to basic facts about their own system and their physical world. They see that to be popular and have power and keep up socially they need ever more money, but they don't fully see their position in society, ie at the bottom, or grasp for a very long time that mathematically, the chances of them acquiring a better education and better security for their children (which should be our focus) than they themselves had are almost zero if they hope to have any kind of lifestyle, and time to spend WITH their children. Especially once you factor in misfortune (illness, injury, etc.). Eventually everyone becomes disillusioned with the perceived unfariness of it all, and basically says "fuck it, everyone's doing it, i'm losing out by NOT indulging in greed. I will cheat in any way i can to level the playing field for myself." Greed trickles down. The more educated do the same thing in different ways as they climb the ladder, but most of them are in debt up to their eyeballs also. Then there have been different levels of disengagement from the more thoughtful persons in society, who simply refuse to join the system in that way. There, til now, has been no active counter force to prevent greed from destroying the very system that promotes it. Look at EU. I like this movement. I've been expecting it for a couple years now.
I read your post. I found it very insightful and well reasoned. You have obviosly done your reasearch. However, There are a few things I would like to point out. To provide some perspective i would like to point out that on average Americans are in the top 2% in wealth and quality of life. That is not to say that we do not have poverty or that we don't have an obligation to help those less fortunate than us. However, should that obligation be a legal one or a moral one? To me it seems that it is unfair to punish the rich simply for being rich and trying to get richer in a court of law. However, I do believe that we as citizens should inform ourselves in the practices of corporations and support the ones who's values match our own. Our economy is a democracy in the purest sense except that instead of ballots we have dollars. We have the freedom as American citizens to A: Inform ourselves B: make our views known and C: spend our money how we choose. This brings me to my next point: freedom. A great deal of the mess that our economy is in right now is directly related to the consumer. The start of the economic downturn is often considered to be the crash of the housing market. People were applying for loans they couldn't pay back for improvements they didn't need. I essentially aggree with you that the root of our problem is greed. But, let me ask you this: is it greed on the part of the banks and corporations that lead to our financial problem or was it our fault for aquiring so much debt in the first place without regard? To end on a positive note however, this has been the most rational argument I have found for the occupy wall street movement. Thankyou for taking the time to construct a rational and thoughtful argument. It is hard to find anything nowadays that isn't simply a rant against one straw man or another.
There was a time when we referred to one another as Citizens. We had certain responsibilities as Citizens. We were treated as Citizens, and thus, we acted like Citizens.
Then we became Consumers. We had certain responsibilities as Consumers. We were treated as Consumers, and thus, we acted like Consumers.
you lost me here as well, "If one of us is Wealthy, it is not because of his/her working hard. It is because Fortune/God/Chaos smiled on that person." this statement went against everything you had just stated. the extremely wealthy got there because they wanted more than they needed, not because of god, or chaos, or fortune.
But to get into the position where they could even begin attaining the kind of wealth that we are seeing today requires quite a bit of Fortune. You have to be born into the right family. You have to have the right teachers. You have to meet the right people. You have to even have the capital necessary to start it all up.
George Bush Jr. is Fortunate he wasn't born as a Chinese girl to rural farmers. He would have never attained any kind of wealth if not for that good fortune.
Once Fortune has it's way with you, you are either rich or poor, and what you do with it decides what kind of person you will be.
i agree with you if we were to say that it is "fortunate" that we be born with a silver spoon in our mouth. please forgive me for my initial reaction, as i was mistaken where you were coming from. i do agree that greed, or selfishness, is the source of all these problems that people are going through right now. while i feel sorry for them for the path that they have chose, i do support a movement such as OWS as without conciencious objection, their greed will never be satiated. now, while i agree that at the root, greed is the problem, i don't believe that greed and levels thereof can ever be legislated. i tend to lean towards legislation to get the big corporate interests out of politics. if we can do this one thing, then all other grievances can be worked out. in other words, take the power away from big business and give it back to the people. much love and thanks for posting.
I agree that greed is an underlying issue of many of the problems we have. But I think in most cases, greed can be minimized and controlled with strict regulations, perhaps, in some cases, taxation. And there is also a societal problem that needs to be addressed, that in which some people actually believe greed is good. Greed is a personal failure of morality. It is not good. We should all strive for prosperity, and abstain from greed. Remember the "say no" campaign. We need a SAY NO to Greed campaign. Teaching our children this everyday and being living examples of it. Who in their right head teaches their kids to be greedy. That right there should be enough for the lightbulb to go off in peoples brains. Greed is not good. As a society, in some ways I feel we have lost our way. Our ethical and moral compass. Everyone needs to keep their moral compass handy at all times. Because you never know when you are gonna need it!
Wall Street has no moral compass at all! So our government must regulate them in the strictest possible way!
I agree there is an element of luck involved with wealth. There are certainly many variables, and luck is one of those. Think George W Bush.
oooooo, i like it, say no to greed campaign. i also will say that i think that this should be something that is naturally taught to our children.
I think it is parenting 101 stuff! But I have talked to people that have actually said greed is good. I can only hope they don't spawn. What about practically everyone that works on Wall Street? They have families. I can't help but wonder what they are teaching their children. By example. I seriously don't understand how people like that even face their family, their children. It's worse than looking in the mirror. How about look into your childs eyes and think about the kind of example you are. Thats what I would like some of those Wall Street folks to do.
as we all would, but unfortunately we cannot mess with anyones free will, so the path is this, BE the change that you wish to see in the world (Ghandi). your children will naturally follow suit. everyone has a choice before them, am i going to continue living as a selfish bastard (i did use the term correctly) or am i going to change and start living with others in mind as a family and as original intention would have it. the choice is ours, we cannot make anyones decision for them, we can only make it ourselves and be good examples that others may follow.
You're right. Not everyone has the same moral values as others. Thus the problem. That's why I believe that it is the governments responsibility to protect us from the greedy abuses of money or power that individuals or entities might engage in that would harm society. ie: stricter financial regulations to prevent another financial crises, stricter environmental laws. Because some people just don't know how to behave responsibly on their own and are unable to control their propensity for greed.
agreed, not much discipline. most of us are neither 100% good or 100% bad so we set up a governing body to protect the people that tend toward the good side from being taken advantage by those that tend to be selfish bastards. unfortunately those that have forsaken what is of good within them have taken over control of the said body that has been set up to protect the rest of us who would rather not control our brothers and sisters. bringing us to this point where the poor and downtrodden are saying no more. power to the people! get money out of politics! the meek shall inherit the earth!
here's another thing, to whatever degree that we as individuals have not laid our lives down to serve others, we are part of that same problem.
OWS is creating problems and trying to upset a country founded on capitalism. in every society there are classes no matter what kind of society it is, communist, capitalist, fascist, whatever. There will always be a high, middle, and low class, you cannot change that. There is no way for a country to work the way it should with everyone on the same playing field. it just is not possible. so to all you OWS people out there, your cause might be just in your mind and sound good on paper but in the real world, it is not possible. You are just creating a stage on which you make noise and yell at the government that allows you to protest and try to destroy the country that gave you the rights to try and destroy it. be thankful you live in a country as good as this one, or go to Somalia or Iraq or North Korea and try to protest there about big business and see how it goes.....
I haven't heard anyone from within the movement saying that we need to abolish any kind of class system. In truth classes are unavoidable. If we don't have a "Upper", "Middle", or "Lower" class, then we'll have a "Working Class," "Education Class" or any other class you can think of. Really a Class is just a similar group of people.
I think the important thing for you to look into is that this country is no longer a Capitalist country, but is a Corporate country. America is much closer to a Fascist state then a Democratic one. I'm not saying that glibly. I mean, very specifically, that the Corporations and Banks that are responsible for making the rules in this country, instead of the people.
That's what the fight is about.
well i said exactly the same thing about the class thing above, so...... But about the country, we are a country built on the ideas of making a successful business, they have gotten too big and politicians need to become more honest.....that way to change the nation isnt through some hippie dippie "protests" or "rallies" or "riots" or whatever.....
But how else to you get your voice heard? The Media is Corporately owned, as is the political process. There truly is no other outlet then to get onto the streets and make it happen. How else can we make the Greed apparent?
right right, people need to wake up to this, all the major media are corporate owned, so what people are watching on the news is exactly what large business interests are spoon-feeding them. a perfect example is the airtime this protest has gotten. just the other night for example, msnbc ran headlines on lindsy lohan and kim kardashian while the OWS didn't get any coverage.
by making speeches, making letters, newspapers, petition, not by rioting and hiding behind fake names and masks and breaking property
If you haven't heard the speeches or petitions, it's because you refuse to listen. There have been many in support of the movement that have spoken very well on it's intent. This is just as a start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj8UlxhfJLw
If you haven't read the letters, or newspapers it's because you refuse to read.
http://occupiedmedia.com/
People feel they have to hide behind names and masks because there is a war going on in the streets.
Those who are breaking property simply need to stop. This is a non-violent movement, and should remain as such.
I dont refues to read or listen....its just the sources are filled with crap and comlete lefty BS....and the war in the streets was caused by YOU PEOPLE!!!
just a suggestion but could it be, just possibly that all these people are not wrong at all? that they all have real grievances. is it possible that the federal government in this country is bought and paid for by big business interests? you may want to check into some of these things before you go pointing the finger.
check what? what we already know? money runs everything....and it always will. Money is what drives people to gain power and a house and a family that can be supported....money if what drives the world and that will never change.....we are not going to pay in hugs or happiness in the future
sounds like money is your god
my godS are not money....it is just the truth....
let me know how that works out for you.
You don't see the police brutality? You don't see the complete and utter overuse of force and aggression?
http://www.therealstevegray.com/2011/10/meet-parrot-the-dog-killed-by-cops/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgr3DiqWYCI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqNOPZLw03Q
Use your eyes!
the use force because you refuse to follow the laws of a peaceful assembly...you shut down a port and burned barricades and broke windows....
Just so we are clear; You are saying that a police officer killing a dog, with no arrest attached to it, and with witnesses saying the dog was simply barking, is in response to some other person somewhere in the world breaking a window? And that is Just to you?
And I wish to outright refute your claim that people aren't peacefully assembling. Name one instance of violence that this movement has been charged with that even comes close to the level of violence that has been used by the police.
A broken window and some paint slapped hastily on the side of a building does not justify this level of violence, in any rational way.
Should the movement work to cull the people who are acting violently within their own movement, absolutely. But the police response can only be described as Sinful.
well if you people cant do it then the police has to....besides we cannot let you guys get too big or you might shut down another port and further hamper te nations ability to function properly. The police have protected you since before you were born so instead of calling them "sinful" (which is pathetic anyway) you should thank them......and "slapping some paint on a building" is vandalism, so is a broke window....which is against the law....which you should be punished for....
So... again... a police officer killing someone's dog in a horrific fashion. That's cool? Police officers tear gassing peaceful protesters... also cool?
There Is a War Going On For Your Mind
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP5yA3RwzOk
The simple truth for myself is that I am really fuck'in tired of the debate. There is nothing to debate. The US government is owned by the wealthy. What the hell needs to be debated? Either you like the situation or you don't. I've heard this bullshit all my life (I'm 68)...yea lets sit down and talk. This will end in one of two ways...(1) tyranny in full gear (2) total change of the system....I guess I am to the point where I am saying 'shit or get off the pot'.
This forum is filled with those who like the current situation. I can tell them this: "you are not going to like either (1) or (2)".
Unfortunately there is more truth in this then I would like. It is going to end in total tyranny or total change. My deepest hope is that it happens with as little bloodshed as possible.
To use your metaphor, I do believe we are in the process of "Shitting." But we've got forty years of backup to deal with, and all the corruption and greed has backlogged us.
Just a little while longer.
How absurd - abolish greed!!!
If you abolish greed - all of my r buddies would be unemployed!
sarah - please run
Help to build a better society! Abolish Stupidity! You would have about the same chance of this happening.
I understand that it is difficult, but when has that ever stopped humanity before?
You are grossly confusing "difficult" with impossible. You cannot legislate away the human condition, unless you are intending to legislate away humans. The last time that was tried was in the 40's by another socialist looking to create a "better world for the common good".
Murder is Illegal. Should we stop legislating that as well then?
Your grasp on logic is why this movement is in the state that it is in. Just stick with the slogans and chants, they hide how stupid you really are.
You didn't bother arguing the point and instead stooped to insulting me. Why the hate?
Are you serious? You actually don't see how your feeble attempt to argue your "point" falls well short of basic logic? It is no insult but a reality, I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you this. The only way that I've stooped to anything is by attempting to have a logical discussion to advance an argument with a complete moron. Good luck to you in life, you are clearly going to need it.
Wow... I'm sorry you live in a world of hate. I hope things improve for you.
It's not hate buddy. I really do feel sorry for how genetics and/or the education system let you down. And I truly do wish you good luck because you are going to need it.
Overcoming greed requires personal enlightenment and this cant be controlled from outside the individual. However, the best way to overcome biases is to have direct contact with the party in question, so it may help the greedy to interact with the people they hurt, but this assumes they have empathy, which many may not. Thus, the need to regulate the actions that enable harmful practices that satisfy the greedy desires.
I tend to see it like this. First we need to completely change the system that allows for Greed to take hold. This movement is calling for just that with it's cry of "Remove Money from Politics." Once the money is gone, then our voices will suddenly matter, and we will be able to move onto the next phase which should be "Remove Greed from our Lives." This would be by creating Laws and Regulations, through our newly reformed system, that force Corporations and Banks to stop acting like Psychopaths.
Let's talk the NBA lockout!
Just another example of unions screwing things up! At least they're not after my hard earned tax money.
Force the politicians to pass a constitution amendment to fully fund all federal election campaigns and ban all private money. The first amendment and the court's interpretation of it makes a constitutional amendment the only way to separate the money from the politicians. The money has poisoned our system of government. Rip it out of the system and you will see our government pay far more attention to the needs of its citizens. The 1 versus the 99 will be far less of an issue because all the different levers that money controls which focus our representative's attention on the 1 percent will be gone. Let's help free our representatives of their need to chase the money to be reelected and we will have come a long way toward resolving many of these issues.
I can't help but agree with this sentiment. There are people who are calling for the smashing of the system in it's entirety. I don't think that's possible, as eventually all systems either become a Republic, or an Oligarchy. Removing the money from it is the thing to do.
Only the hard work of unsuccessful people adds value. The upside down world reasoning of OWS (and a hell of a lot more concise).
No. Only hard work should be the measure of reward, And the value of that work ought be in direct proportion to it's physical energy, duration, quality, and level of necessity for society's survival. Tell me a great reason why it shouldn't? The mechanisation of industry and agriculature to the point of almst complete automation is only benefiting the rowner class. None of them worked any harder than their workers. They are millionaires. Their workers (who created all the knowledge used in the next technological step) were simply discarded. You traders on 'the street" there are being mapped like every other worker. Your jobs can already be done better by computers. Most of you probably know that. What then for you guys? You'll be with us. Just something to think about.
Maybe you can chair the politburo commission that fixes incomes.
Here's something that you might find to be shocking. Hard work by itself has no value. Try an experiment. Do you job blindfolded tomorrow. At the close of the day, ask yourself if you worked harder. Next ask yourself if you thought that what you accomplished was worth more because it was harder. If it still hasn't sunk in, dig a hole in your front yard. Next, fill it back in. In your world, you should now be rich. Just something to think about.
Whose fixing incomes? At the moment a skewed economic system is. And if you look at physical productivity compared to financial aggregates for any western economy since the repeal of Glass Steagall you'll see less work for LESS physical output but more money creation..... Where's the value gone in the economy? To the Military Industrial complex that protects global corporate and financial interests (ie sells "regional security"). You don't believe that gambling on commodities etc, has value to the real economy. do you? It's a means of "leveraging profits out of markets", ie driving up consumer prices by holding onto commodities, etc. As someone who lived on a farm for a large chunk of my childhood, I'v done much hard work that had little value in terms of monetary return. But it did improve my day to day life and personal enjoyment and creativity. ie building stairs, ramps, decks, pools, gardens, machines (none of which, btw, adds a whole lot of value to a farm, and of course sometimes ones ideas simply don't work) It's often a risk of labour in an uncertain environment, and something i well understand. I don't see hedge fund managers taking anyones blindfolds off as they "rake profits off the market" and make billions, so what VALUE are they adding? None. They are using their financial position to make money off of money. Sometimes stuff gets built along the way, kind of as an afterthought. What i don't understand is why any discussion about wage inequality and it's driving forces instantly leads to a fear that someone is going to start fixing wages. It's going on now, utterly undemocratically. Look around you. I'd just like people to acknowledge that, and regulate the system so it can't be driven to this sort of point where the banks run the world and democracy is a soap opera. It's gotten annoying, and personally i have largely disengaged with the whole charade. So maybe i should just crawl off into the rainforest and be happy. And screw you guys, Maybe that IS for best.
If you believe that is what I said, then I truly do feel sorry for you.
Maybe you wanna bring up greed with the OWSers that borrowed money, spent the money, and now don't want to pay it back. Greed isn't about the amounts involved, it's the attitude.
Of course, you're also ridiculous too because greed is a part of the human condition. It always has been and always will be. Another poster put it well: maybe jealously can be next. Our system manages human realities and freedom very well.
I'm sorry you think the Greed Based Economy is working when it has clearly failed millions.
And clearly served hundreds of millions. It's not without its faults, but it's better than anything else ever thought of.
I'm not making a call to tear it down. Just remove the Greed from it. Wouldn't you like to see that as well?
It isn't possible. Capitalism is a system that accepts human realities and creates the best outcome possible. It isn't perfect, but it is best. Look around your town. See all the things that have people's names on them. Those are donors. Go to a hospital, maybe a little league ball field. Do you have a Carnegie library near by. Ask yourself where the money came from for your local arts center. Make a little study of greed in your area. I think you'd quickly learn a little balance to the ignorant venom of the OWSers.
I don't see how donating money or taxes constitute Greed. Those are examples of Charity and Benefit for All.
They don't. But there's maybe just maybe a lot less evil greed out there than you think.
You seem to assume that I'm some kind of bleak nihilist that is incapable of feeling hope or seeing beauty. This movement is the most hopeful movement I've ever seen, and it is specifically because it is a movement that is looking to remove the ugliest aspects from our beautiful world.
I see it like this. We have a cancer growing in this country. It's a beautiful country, with beautiful ideals, but there's a cancer. Once we remove that cancer, we'll all be the better for it.
Don't you want to see things improve? Don't you want to help remove the Cancer of Greed from our society?
It isn't a movement just like it isn't the 99%. Both are utterly aspirational and are way out in front of reality.
It's isn't a cancer and it isn't growing. Income and wealth have tilted a bit at this point. We're also limping away from a dangerous and severe downturn. Cultures change over time. I do hope, perhaps like you too, that people re-evaluate their values some and move back from the consumer and debt culture of the past 20 years. But that's all of us, not just some few people at the top. That's something OWS misses. It should be occupy ourselves.
I tend to agree with you. I do feel this movement has quite a bit of "Us Vs. Them" in it's mentality. We are all Human and we are all in it together.
When I speak of "Cancer" I'm not pointing a finger at the top 1%. It is just an unfortunate truth that the symptoms of Greed manifest most clearly there. The reality is that we are no longer Citizens. We are Consumers.
Can we be condemned for acting as such?
I just quit my job at Chase in the city. I can no longer work for tyrants and theives. I alos stopped apying my landloed, credit cards an car loans. I'm on the street now, literally at Zuccotti Park.
I just quit my job at Chase in the city. I can no longer work for tyrants and theives. I alos stopped apying my landloed, credit cards an car loans. I'm on the street now, literally at Zuccotti Park.
Live in Peace Brother!
Matthew 19:21-24
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
JonoLith
Your paragraph :Hard Work does not make Wealth in the Greed Based Economy. There are millions of people who work very hard, daily, to survive within this system, and they are dying. What's left of the middle class works very hard, and yet they are not Wealthy. The 80% of us that make less then 7% the total wealth work hard, and yet we are not wealthy.
It should be edited into your article.
Re. NachoCheese and Perspective. When Goldman, allocated 80% of their trading revenue (Revenue not profit) to bonuses for management and their traders, in a quarter in which the company lost over $2Billion, you can still believe this was done in the interest of the shareholders? Right.
And over a decade in which the bottom 20% incomes went up 18% and that of the 1% went up 275%, you would like to believe that it was because the 1% worked 15.3 times as hard? How do you measure that?
Y'know what. I agree. Thanks!
Ugh, had to delete a few things out of the article to fit it! Turns out there IS a limit to content.
Seekin' The Cause by Miguel Pinero
Seekin' The Cause he was Dead / he never Live The Book of Genesis According to St. Miguelito Before the beginning / God created Go Black Woman With The Blond Wig On Black woman with the blond wig on / you're living an illusion. La Bodega Sold Dreams dreamt i was a poet / & he was Dead he never Lived died died he died seekin' a Cause seekin' the Cause because he said he never saw the cause but he heard the cause heard the cryin' of hungry ghetto children heard the warnin' from Malcolm heard the tractors pave new routes to new prisons died seekin' the Cause seekin' a Cause he was dead on arrival he never really Lived uptown . . . downtown . . . crosstown body was round all over town seekin' the Cause thinkin' the Cause was 75 dollars & gator shoes thinkin' the Cause was sellin' the white lady to black children thinkin' the cause is to be found in gypsy rose or j. b. or dealin' wacky weed and singin' du-wops in the park after some chi-chiba he died seekin' the Cause died seekin' a Cause and the Cause was dyin' seekin' him and the Cause was dyin' seekin' him and the Cause was dyin' seekin' him he wanted a color t. v. wanted a silk on silk suit he wanted the Cause to come up like the mets & take the world series he wanted . . . he wanted . . . he wanted . . . he wanted to want more wants but he never gave he never gave he never gave his love to children he never gave his heart to old people & never did he ever give his soul to his people he never gave his soul to his people because he was busy seekin' a cause busy busy perfectin' his voice to harmonize the national anthem with spiro t agnew busy perfectin' his jive talk so that his flunkiness wouldn't show busy perfectin' his viva-la-policia speech downtown . . . uptown . . . midtown . . . crosstown his body was found all over town seekin' a Cause seekin' the Cause found in the potter fields of an o. d. found in the bowery with the d. d. t.'s his legs were left in viet-nam his arms were found in sing-sing his scalp was on Nixon's belt his blood painted the streets of the ghetto his eyes were still lookin' for jesus to come down on some cloud & make everything ok when jesus died in attica his brains plastered all around the frames of the pentagon his voice still yellin' stars & stripes 4 ever riddled with the police bullets his taxes bought he died seekin' a Cause seekin' the Cause while the Cause was dyin' seekin' him he died yesterday he's dyin' today he's dead tomorrow died seekin' a Cause died seekin' the Cause & the Cause was in front of him & the Cause was in his skin & the Cause was in his speech & the Cause was in his blood but he died seekin' the Cause he died seekin' a Cause he died deaf dumb & blind he died & never found his Cause because you see he never never knew that he was the Cause. What did you think
Brilliant. Thank you for sharing that with me.
Best Reasons I've seen to be part of this movement http://www.theawl.com/2011/10/the-livestream-ended-how-i-got-off-my-computer-and-into-the-streets-at-occupy-oakland
Wow, that is a brilliant piece of work. Extremely well thought out and well articulated.
Your premise is flawed in my view. You say that hard work means nothing,it all comes down to dumb luck. You can't be serious about that. If this was the case why do anything? Just wait to see what luck brings. I'm thinking if you do that the results will not be to your liking. In your own way you are greedy. You want to take from those with more and give to those with less. Sounds noble doesn't it? Until you become one of those with more as you will eventually through the attrition of those with more than you.
I used to believe in all that hard work stuff too. I used to work 14 hour days with a full-time and part time job, but I got sick of never seeing my daughter, not having any time for myself, and just relaxing. Now I just trade momentum for my account, my uncle, and a few others. I sit in front of a computer, watch the monitor a few hours in the morning and the afternoon and make more money in about 15 hours or less a week than I used to do in 14 hours per day. I made 7% on my triple DOW long last week for me and my friends. Hard work is truly for suckers! True, my dad worked long hours to give a middle-class life for us, but I hardly ever saw him, and that sucked, and when had that heart attack at 54, that really sucked. But hard work now-a-days? Seriously? I'm done at 4PM EVERYDAY. Some weeks, I'm good by Monday morning! I really can't help but laugh at this Hard Work pity party crap
That was a cut and paste which I have seen posted before. I could be wrong but I'm thinking it's fiction.
Check out how much UDOW is up today so far. Not fiction my friend. The real money in this world is no longer made by hard work. You think those bankers in those ivory towers on Wall Street work hard? If you have a $10 Million account to trade and you play momemtum and get in and out of a trade in 15 minutes and make just 0.1%, do you know how much that is? $10,000. Not bad for 15 minutes, huh?
You have drawn a conclusion I didn't state. Hard work is important. Fortune is more important. There are millions of hard working people in the world who are not wealthy. They go out and work extremely hard to feed their families, and provide the basic necessities of life.
Why are they not wealthy? They work very hard. Some workers in China work sixteen hour days. Why aren't they wealthy? Some workers in America work three jobs and also work sixteen hour days. Why aren't they wealthy?
In my estimation, being wealthy has much much more to do with good Fortune then Hard Work. At least, that's how it is in the Greed Based Economy.
If Hard Work equated to Wealth, there wouldn't be a movement at all.
Hard work doesn't equal being wealthy. There's much more involved in it. You would have everyone be equal to everyone else wealth wise which isn't realistic at all.You said "If one of us is Wealthy, it is not because of his/her working hard (Although they might have)" where you flat out stated hard work plays no part. Do you think a dishwasher who works hard should be paid as much as a brain surgeon? Why? You would discount peoples hard work because it doesn't fit your idea of what's "fair". Fair is a funny word because it doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. In the end OWS is trying to impose their opinion of what's fair on everyone else whether they agree or not. That doesn't seem fair.(see I told you it was a funny word)
You are hitting on a very interesting topic here. I tend to see people as Human first, and by their Job second. You seem to think that there is such a thing as a "Better Human" based on their Job.
What one would hope for, ultimately, is that you would have a society of people who would want to pursue a career for the sake of that career. That will be the mark of a truly brilliant society.
And what is it that all people want, truly. They want water, food, shelter, entertainment, and the ability to gain those things on their own terms. I actually don't understand why this has become a difficult thing for this society to attain.
As an example; If Starbucks, which made 200 million last year, gave each of it's employees a 10,000 dollar annual raise, they would still make 180 million. That extra 10,000 dollars would be miraculous for those workers. That 20 million is a drop in the bucket for Starbucks.
Why won't they do it? Greed.
"Why won't they do it? Greed."
Or another premise perhaps?
What about their fiduciary responsibility to their share holders?
What was the rate of return for shares of Starbucks in that same time period?
How would your redistribution of that profit, that is due to the share holders, effect the return on their investment?
So... Greed.
How would your redistribution of that profit, that is due to the share holders, effect the return on their investment?
What was the rate of return for shares of Starbucks in that same time period?
The shareholders are deciding the profit margin to begin with (for labour they have nothing to do with - they did theirs to buy the shares ages ago). For them to want poorer workers (who are just like they were when they were saving to buy those shares) they must surely be greedy. Or is it mean and petty>? This is where it gets murky...
Once again...
What was the rate of return for shares of Starbucks in that same time period?
It is honestly not that hard to find out.
Forget the dishwasher, I'd just pay the brain surgeon more than the bugger's who gamble on comodities for a living for a start, and work from there. Just sayin'.
But then you get into this fuzzy area. Who decides what everyone gets paid? I negotiate my wages myself and have been very happy with the outcomes over the years. One must have skills that are in demand though and that comes down to personal decisions and responsibility on people's part.
Who decides now really what you get paid.? You have a range to work in when you negotiate based on many factors including the nature of the industry itself, market demand etc., and internal factors the company uses to decide your value. This is affected by the way that company is financed, and it's profit margins. Finance is controlled by the banking sector, who also affect rental rates, council rates, transportation and everything else via interest rates and inflation. If the cost of finance goes up, the company has a duty to protect the shareholders and maintain profit by passing on this cost. Thing is, bankers like corporations that generate commodities, so they can speculate on those commodities, who do the bankers work for? the shareholders, ie themselves and a percentage of the public. They fix their wages and margins first, and then make sure they leverage enough out of all of our pockets to keep that fixed. We fight over the leftovers that aren't being tied up in the trading casinos. Your wages are fixed. Let's get democracy and regulation back in there to make the market actually free for all players, not just a few. I know that sounds weird, but the system has been skewed. I just think we need to right it. And this Occupy thing is creating dialogue. Look at us go.
Banks also help dictate profit margins by "rating" companies based on their own criteria and then setting interest rates for those companies accordingly. If you don't price gouge to maintain margins, they'll suck money out of you in interest as well. You must make x% as a Y to be viable and x+10% to be triple A, say.... Where does the 10% come from? the market. That's you. And they play with food, water, electricity, C02 soon, transport, prisons, etc. in this way, while speculating on derivatives relating to them. Try boycotting the coporations that rob everyone. See how long we all last. We are controlled in every aspect of our life by a wunch of bankers... We need to take that control back for everyone before the balance is corrected for us.
Great writing. Now send this to Fox and CNN so they can understand the movement.
I'm just one voice in the movement. Thanks for the compliment though!
Oh and one more thing, if you want to blame the mess we are in right now on someone....BLAME HUMANS!!
I just joined here today, and I've been reading around this board for a few hours now. Some interesting reading.
Hope no one minds if I throw my .02 cents in here, just a few observations from I've read so far.
First of all I do agree that things need to change, this movement may be the beginning of it. Who knows, it's something now and gaining steam.
I see a lot of finger pointing and debate over what kind of government would/should/might work. People bickering over what Democrat screwed this up or what the Republican created this loophole blah blah blah. All any of this does is get people mired down in useless details, and running around in circles. If everyone is going to look back, then look at the big picture. I'm taking about societies though out civilization overall. Now look at the ones that failed, and look at the root causes. Greed has played a major roll in all of them.
In any system of government, there will always be flaws, and those that exploit them for their own gains. The problem is that large governments don't progress with the expansion of the societies they create. In stead they adapt the same old system to address evolving problems. American adapted with amendments, this law added to that one. Now in order to understand the laws we are governed by a person has to go to college for 8 years, and that's just to understand one or two parts of it.
This creates a rift between members in a society between those that know the law, and work it to whatever ends suits there needs, and those who don't. Those who know the rules make the rules. Historically speaking humans go insane when they have power over large groups of people. We are living under an antiquated form of government that was never designed to accommodate the society we have today.
Do any of you think the funding fathers could have seen where our country has ended up? Lets take the first line of the constitution, We the people for the people by the people. When that was written it really was that way, the person you sent to Washington was someone you knew, personally, he was a neighbor, someone you could talk to that cared about the community because he lived there too. That man traveled to Washington to make the voice of his community heard, and it wasn't like he could just jump on a plane and be there in a couple hours.
I could go on and on about how as the towns grew into cities and the representatives went from being a friend and a neighbor, to a slickster who talked a good game and had the most money...well maybe another time, I'll get to the point.
We are living under an outdated system, and for the first time in human history we have a chance to actually progress on a form of government rather then patch the holes and float it as long as we can. If laws were broken down to their actual meaning and written in a manner that anyone with a public school education could understand them, we wouldn't need to send Representatives anywhere, wouldn't need them at all. We the people for the people by the people, we really could govern ourselves. Every policy, that effects our lives as a community could be voted on by everyone in that community in real time.
We are at a unique time in the history of humanity, we have the opportunity to create a way of keeping order that has never been possible before. Do you really want to piss that all away because you want to stick with the "your dumb cuz u's is a reeepulickan" "oh yeah your a big fat stupid head democrat" "you must be stoned out yo mind cuz you a libreal" What ever, it's all stupid!!
We can either take this opportunity to change the way humanity lives on this planet, or we can keep killing ourselves and each other to build ancient empires just to watch them fall to dust.
Have a nice day :)
Well written and thoughtful I especially enjoyed your typo(?) FUNDING fathers! Made me think a bit...
Thanks for this and welcome!
Well written.
no fuckin doubt; plus, in content, he comes closer to my feelings about ows than anyone else on here has... yet
Thank you so much for these comments. They really do serve to bolster my spirit about our situation.
I've been living in despair for the majority of my life. This movement has given me hope.
yeh got so bad for me that i had to realize there was some sick part of me that enjoyed living in despair : )
i think i use the term "materialism" more than "greed." to me, greed is the mindless acquisition of objects for its own sake, like some kind of obsessive compulsive disorder or something. the implication of materialism is that the more objects i possess, the happier i am. thats what i think is so sad about our times. people growing old, and thinking about having prioritized materialism in their lives...
I tend to agree with your statement that there is a sick part in myself that enjoyed the despair of my situation.
I find that Hope feels so much better though!
Hope is the thing with feathers. That perches in the soul, And sings the tune--without the words, And never stops at all.
heard that on criminal minds the other day
Sorry champ ... this is different from your Gramsci's long march ... not the same old cultural marxism.
This is a push for direct democracy ... the final push for a one world government.
So ... who are the 20 covert steering committee members that are pulling the NYCGA strings?
"Eyewitness observers suggest that the deliberations of the general assembly are largely a diversion, and that real power is being increasingly concentrated in the hands of about 20 mysterious and anonymous individuals who appear to make up a kind of covert steering committee that pulls the strings on the general assembly, or else goes around it completely. The members of this cadre of mysterious operatives are not as young as the average demonstrator. The secret leadership is made up of people ranging in age from 25 to over 40, with the older ones occupying the key posts. Many of them appear to be active duty or recently retired military ... "
http://thedailybell.com/bellinclude.cfm?ID=3061&bid=2
You should go back to school and study sociology. Then you won't be so afraid.
Afraid much?
Afraid ... no. Uncomfortable with the the concept of direct democracy ... yes. See Federalist Paper No.10. ... we have been warned.
"A pure democracy can admit no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will be felt by a majority, and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party. Hence it is, that democracies have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."
The entire point of the micro direct democracy is to bring about change and to allow as many as possible to have input into that change.
I understand that change is uncomfortable, I understand that comfort is the one thing humans strive for, but I also understand that there has already been change. Quiet, unseen change. Change that isn't working at all for the majority of the populace.
These changes have been multitude and take a multitude of voices to bring these changes to the attention of the sleeping giant that is the public of the US.
There has been one common theme among the protest, one phrase which carries all the other hopes along with it. Get Corporate America out of politics.
A few, a very few seek total change...but their voices need to be heard also. After all the US was meant to be a government OF, FOR and BY the PEOPLE.
We are the people.
All I ask for is Transparency ...
Who is leading the charge ... anonymous/wikileaks/zerohedge ... these are the generals.
But who is behind the curtain ... who is the secret group pulling NYCGA strings!?!
Is the new master ... a malevolent or benevolent one?
Try reading this... http://www.theawl.com/2011/10/the-livestream-ended-how-i-got-off-my-computer-and-into-the-streets-at-occupy-oakland
No new master, just people.
Thanks for the link PandoraK ... but no answer to be found there.
Can you tell me how the G20 protests are related to OWS?
Are they one?
This is actually hitting on the next article I'd like to write. People are so used to seeing leaders that when they see a truly leaderless movement they have no idea how to respond to it.
The G20 protests are related to OWS through sentiment. The G20 summit is about the rich getting together and deciding the economic plan for the rest of us. Ultimately, whatever plan they create, it will be a plan that will sacrifice the basic tenets of our Humanity for Greed.
Just goes to show. The one thing Republicans and Democrats have in common is that they all love a good Conspiracy Theory.
This is great work! "If you do not understand this [movement] it is not because the movement is crazy, or uninformed. It is because you are so awash in the system of GREED that you are blind to it’s effect on Humanity, and how it has debased and humiliated the majority of Citizens of the World." this is the best line,. I changed the one word there,. and I may spam the spammers that keep trying that lame "I just don't get it, why don't you just get a job, and quite whining,." BS.
Thanks for sharing.
Thank you! I was concerned about how this would be received, mainly because of the mass hatred I feel from the lurking trolls around here, but your comment alone has made it worth it!
Spam those Spammers!
Oh, and I may very well make that change myself.
Two wrongs do not make a right. Spamming the spammers makes you no better than them.
You need to understand the difference ... between group rights ... and an individual rights.
there is a difference?
yes ... and it is huge.
individual rights need to be protected from mob rulez ...
Well, there is truth in what you say. We can't all just get together and decide that someone should die because we want them to. That's why we have laws.
It's very much the same as saying a very small group of individuals shouldn't decide the fate of the majority of individuals. Don't you think?
Just as you overlook individual rights ... you overlook natural law ...
We don't make these laws ... we are bestowed ...
I don't disagree with what you're saying there. But we are also a Society, are we not? We are, by nature, social creatures, are we not?
Yes we are /b/rothers ...
So... I ask again then. If we are all brothers, and sisters, then what is the difference between Individual Rights and Social Rights.
The difference ... an individual has an immutable right to the fruit of ones labor.
No social, civil, group right can infringe ...
Life, Liberty and Property ...
Do you think people are seeing the fruits of their labors now?
yes. you reap what you sow ...
So the millions of hard working individuals who have been laid off, or who work in sweat shop conditions for a pittance; are they reaping what they sow?
One decides their own fate. It seems you're kind of dipping into the aforementioned conspiracy theories.
I'm not sure I understand. I agree that one should be allowed to decide their own fate, within the confines of what Fortune allows. Fortune being the whims of the Universe. God, if you prefer.
But we are a group of people. We do need Law, at it's most basic level, at least.
why do you fear your neighbors? got something to hide?
only those who need to take more than everyone around them fear equality. the greedy are always fearful.
Absolutely.
And what would that difference be?
Or let your greed fuel your successes, whichever works for you.
Steaming pile of crap. Life's not fair, get a helmet.
I'm sorry you live in a world of hate. I hope things get better for you.
I'm sorry you live a unicorn filled rainbow world of gum drop castles. I don't think things can get better for you.
I agree. People who defend greed don't understand that they are trying to defend the right to survive but have been brainwashed into thinking that it's okay even if it feeds off of other citizens. Greed is excess. Excess is imbalance. Imbalance is decay. Decay is death.
Well said!
Thanks. Passion feeds this peaceful revolution. We!!!
One last thing...
Not nitpicking (though this may appear so) but this part is self-contradictory:
I try, very hard, to make points that are not debatable; that cannot be argued.
My intention is to inspire debate and have a meaningful discussion amongst all parties.
If you are attempting to make points that are "not debatable", how can you then claim to be attempting to "inspire debate"?
It might just be a typo, if so, feel free to edit and discharge this comment.
What is "Inspire"?
How can "points that are not debatable; that cannot be argued" inspire debate?
Speaking of debate...why do you fail to respond to my more substantive points of what you wrote?
It's okay, it's clear that you actually want "meaningful discussion", but only with those that agree with you.
Have fun with that.
I've mulled it over and I've decided that this is the best way to answer.
I absolutely only want to have meaningful discussion with people who agree with the truth that Greed is evil, and living in a Greed Based Economy is wrong. I have absolutely no interest in speaking with people who want to see the continued suffering of millions, and the degradation of the most basic tenants of human life. I have no interest in hearing the opinions of people who want to see Greed live.
If that makes me less appealing to you, then that's my cross to bear.
So you only want to have conversations with people who agree with you?
And after mulling this over, you still refuse to address my substantive points (none of which advocate for greed, nor call greed good).
Do you believe Greed is Good? Because I'm going to tell you, everything you have said to me screams "I love Greed."
Do I believe greed is good? No, absolutely not.
What in what I have said suggests that I believe greed is good? The unfortunate part of this discussion is that you have steadfastly chosen to read something into my statements that is not there.
Was it my defense of personal liberty?
Personal liberty is that you can live your life as you chose, and not have someone else's ideas foisted upon you. If someone wishes to live a life of greed, then that is their personal choice. Only when their choices infringe upon your (or my) freedom to live as you chose (personal liberty) does law/society/government come into it.
Does that clear up my thoughts on personal liberty?
That defense of liberty is not a defense of greed. Greed is a part of human nature, any attempt to "abolish" it, is an attempt to "abolish human nature" -- free will. That is why I say to attempt to abolish greed is to attempt to abolish liberty.
I must be honest, I'm having a lot of difficulty seeing where you're coming from on this issue.
In this post alone, you say: "Do I believe greed is good? No, absolutely not."
And then very shortly thereafter you say: "If someone wishes to live a life of greed, then that is their personal choice."
Is this akin do you saying "It's not a lifestyle I choose for myself, but I don't begrudge those who choose it for themselves."?
I also have a lot of difficulty with your view that Abolishing Greed somehow Abolishes Liberty. We have abolished a lot of things that are in our nature, but that we believe to be harmful. Murder would be the prime example.
In any case, the call to Abolish Greed has nothing to do with denying it's existence in Humanity. All People have flashes of thoughts that would be considered reprehensible to us all. However, it is our control of these thoughts that allow us to retain our Humanity.
I feel there needs to be a very large distinction between Greed as thought, and Greed as action. We cannot deny that we have desires that are not beneficial to our own existence, and the existence of those around us. However, our ability to take those desires and to not turn them into action is our greatest achievement.
I also have a lot of difficulty with this statement: "If someone wishes to live a life of greed, then that is their personal choice." It strikes me that you believe it is possible for someone to be Harmlessly Greedy. I think this is a paradox that cannot exist. Greed is destructive. That is it's most basic function.
To be clear; it is not Greedy to seek one's survival, and comfort. Food, Shelter, Clothing, Spiritual Ease; these are all things that should come easy in any advanced society. But when people begin to horde vast amounts of wealth to the detriment of all others, that is very specifically Greed.
I suppose I'm having difficulty engaging with you because I don't understand how any human being can truly advocate Greed. It's such an obvious evil, and any system built using Greed as it's Foundation can only be evil.
Once again you read into my statement, something that is not there.
"I suppose I'm having difficulty engaging with you because I don't understand how any human being can truly advocate Greed."
Where did I advocate greed?
I advocate your (and my) right to live our lives as each person sees fit.
That does nothing to support greed, and in point of fact, is agnostic toward greed.
Your right to live your life is constrained only when it impacts the right of others to live their lives as they chose.
I also have a lot of difficulty with your view that Abolishing Greed somehow Abolishes Liberty. We have abolished a lot of things that are in our nature, but that we believe to be harmful. Murder would be the prime example.
Murder is not inherent to human nature.
"when people begin to horde vast amounts of wealth to the detriment of all others, that is very specifically Greed"
People can horde all they wish (being greedy), when their behavior impacts the lives of others (detrimental) then the law/society/government come into play.
Case in point;
The housing bubble. Many people were very greedy in creating and sustaining the subprime housing fiasco.
--The people who sought more than they could afford were greedy.
--The people who gambled with the housing market and it's apparent exponential (and ultimately unsustainable) growth, by buying houses solely for the purpose of "flipping it" for quick and easy profit were greedy.
--The government (all good intentions aside) were wrong to pass legislation forcing bank to lend to people who otherwise were unqualified.
--Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac were greedy in providing pseudo-government backing for those risky loans, thereby giving Wall Street investors incentive to buy into those bad mortgage backed securities.
--The bankers, in order to attempt to mitigate the risk of those bad loans, were greedy to lie to other investors when they repackaged the bad loans and sold them as an investment.
--The investors, seeing an easy payday, were greedy to buy those bad loans, and create another "investment" with the creation of the credit default swaps (essentially betting that the original mortgage bundle would fail).
I condemn ALL who partook in the feeding frenzy that was the subprime mortgage crap, and all those who exploited the housing market bubble created by that undo extension of credit to the otherwise unqualified. I most importantly condemn ALL IN GOVERNMENT who with the force of law, demanded/ordered (under the guise of helping people) the market to do what it's own common sense told them was a bad idea.
^^ is that enough condemnation of greed?
The irony with that analysis is that the profit driven free market would never have allowed that perfect storm to build. Their own self-interest (greed) would have (and did for hundreds of years) prevented the subprime mortgage market from ever creating the unsustainable housing bubble. Our economy would NOT have tanked without those "looking out for the poor" government poverty pimps manipulating the market for easy political-capital.
I think I'm getting closer to understanding your point. What you are saying, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that Greed is fine as long as it hurts no one else.
I do not believe that Greed is capable of existing without doing harm.
Aren't we just agreeing?
"Greed is fine as long as it hurts no one else"
Somewhat.
For me, greed is an evil that I avoid, as it corrodes all it touches. Eventually nothing becomes enough to satiate it's desires and destroys the person that lives by it.
But I constrain that to myself and my life. I do not attempt to impose upon anyone else the values I hold and live my life by.
And here is where we agree I believe. The moment a greedy person negatively effects the life of anyone else (their ability to live as they chose), then law/society/government should intervene in the interest of the society at large.
That is the irony of the housing market collapse. The government not only failed in it's sole purpose in society, but was a prime mover in the creation of the bubble. I can concede that SOME of the people involved had the best of intentions in trying to help people, who otherwise were unqualified, to buy their own home. Sadly, I feel that the vast majority were in it for political gain.
"I do not want the same kind of focus on safety and soundness [in the regulation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac] that we have in the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency and the Office of Thrift Supervision. I want to roll the dice a little bit more in this situation towards subsidised housing."
-- Barney Frank (then Chair of the House Financial Services Committee) 2003
Well it was a long road Nacho, but I think we got there.
I agree with you that we need to maintain personal Liberty.
Greed can only be checked once it does harm to someone. But we need to create a world where we are more aware of it. The top economists, the top politicians, the top businessmen operate with this fundamental creed in their minds. "Greed is Good." or "It is Good to be Selfish."
This is what's destroying us. Greed is not a sin, it's a goal.
That was it’s original intent. As stated by it’s creators.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
The unarguable intent, in short, is to see to the Well Being of All Citizens.
You can call this an "unarguable intent", but I have to take issue with your summation of it's intent.
The intent was not to "see to the well being of all citizens", but rather to attempt to ensure the health of the Republic. That a healthy Republic is the best guarantor to "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity".
Being that your central premise regarding the intent of the founding is flawed, it follows that the rest of your statement, although well said, is also fundamentally flawed.
"Abolish Greed"
To "abolish greed" is to abolish human liberty.
For you, the amassing of wealth (however defined -- be it material or otherwise) may not be a central part of your life, but who are you to decide that it is not nor should not be for someone else?
That is the essence of liberty...you are free to live your life, and leave others to live theirs.
I'm sorry that you believe that the sad state of our current situation is acceptable to you. I'm sorry that you are desperately clinging onto a system that has failed hundreds of millions of people. I'm most sorry that you believe that Greed is good.
"I'm most sorry that you believe that Greed is good."
Where did I say anything of the sort?
Oh wait...that's right, I didn't.
"To abolish greed is to abolish human liberty."
How is that not saying "Greed is Good."? If we believe Liberty is good, and abolishing Greed is abolishing Liberty, then Greed is Good. I'm truly, and deeply sorry you feel this way.
Lastly...ironic that you can grammar nazi and construct logical fallacies, all while avoiding those more difficult points I raised...
Nice logical fallacy you have there.
Care to address the portion of my comment where I elaborated on how "abolishing greed" would destory liberty? You know the part about you being free to live you life and others being free to do the same.
Of course not, because that invalidates the cute little fallacy you constructed.
It's.... not a logical fallacy. I just literally quoted you. You wrote "To abolish greed is to abolish human liberty."
The logically fallacy is your extrapolation of the quote.
If A is true and A=B, therefore B is true.
Your fallacy requires that A and B are equivalent, which I never stated.
Ok. I'm truly not here to debate semantics. If you wish to win this argument of meaningless technicalities, then you have. I'm far more concerned with creating a world where people are treated with dignity and respect.
That's not semantics, you extrapolated my position then constructed a logical fallacy to support your contention.
If you want debate, then address the substantive points I have raised and stop assigning to me what you feel you need to justify your position.
If you would try discussing the points I raised, you might find that we agree more than you would think. But first you have to actually address my points and not your interpretation of them.
How about you comment on my interpretation of the intent?
I wrote:
The intent was not to "see to the well being of all citizens", but rather to attempt to ensure the health of the Republic. That a healthy Republic is the best guarantor to "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity".
I agree with abolishing greed, but I don't agree at all with the ideas proposed by OWS. I don't believe in direct democracy one bit. One of the main problems is that it cannot scale. There are many other problems as well. I believe in a system similar to what exists in Canada, but with more checks for transparency and more laws to make the government accountable. I believe we must be skeptical of the government and keep it in check, but we must also have a trusting relationship with our government.
I tend to agree with you on the premise of Direct Democracy. Every time it has been tried it falls into either Oligarchy, or the Rule of the Republic. I suspect that, inevitably, this movement will become one of a Republic.
Greed is excess. Excess is imbalance. Imbalance is decay. Decay is death. Survival trumps greed. Greed + brainwash = survival.
Hrm. I actually don't know that I agree with the statement that "Greed + Brainwash = Survival." Surviving is the most basic human tenant, and it isn't Greedy to seek ones survival. Greed manifests once all of your survival needs have been met and you still desire more, and it especially apparent when it happens at the detriment of others.
Brainwashed to believe that greed is required to survive and even flourish. The brainwash is a negative here.
That I can agree with.
That is what I meant. Greed is our destruction because if it hurts ANYONE then it hurts us all.