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Forum Post: This simple graph would explain a lot, if only it existed:

Posted 1 year ago on Oct. 2, 2012, 7:51 a.m. EST by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

If one could create a simple graph along the x-axis plot “number of people, starting from the bottom whose net worth equals net worth of Forbes 400”, along the y-axis each year since the 400 has been published, I think the problem we face would be apparent, but I don’t have the data……

http://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/list/#page:1_sort:0_direction:asc_search:_filter:All%20industries_filter:All%20states_filter:All%20categories

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87 Comments


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[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

WT ? TH ? WN?

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (1321) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 year ago

Tax the terrorist banksters and investor tyrants to death or drive them off to a desert island to live by their own work instead of ours. That's WT ? TH ? WN? !!!

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

thanks

[-] 5 points by agkaiser (1321) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 year ago

Some data [facts] to ponder. The following has been gleaned from Edward N. Wolff's “Working Paper No. 502” [www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/wp_502.pdf ] {revised in 2010: http://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/wp_589.pdf Wolff-update_589.pdf } for the USA:

1)

2004 Total Households; households with Net Worth >= 1M

(1000s)

TH=112107

2) . . . see http://www.agkaiser.org/posts-2011/Where-Is-the-Money.pdf

. . .

4) mean wealth holdings (1000s)

 top 1%    next: 4%      5%       10%       20%        20%      40%

 1983 8,315   1,375      598.2     323.0     154.8      64.3       5.4

 2004 14,786  2,645      1,062.7   576.7     243.6      81.9       2.2

% Δ 1983 to 2004

77.8        92.3        77.7          78.5        57.3      27.3     -58.7

from 1) and 2)

Total American Wealth in 2004

WT = TH x 1000 x WN x 1000 = 4.8262 x 1013 = $48.262 trillion

from 1)

1120.0 / 112107 x 100 = 0.999% have >= $5M

from 3)

34.3% of WT owned by top 1% = $16.555T

[the next 9% own 36.9% of WT = $17.809T]

W5+ = 0.999 x $16.555T = $16.538T collectively owned by those who have >= $5M

from 1)

1120 x 1000 x $5M = $5.600 x 1012 is the sum of the first $5Ms of all the top 0.999%

Conclusion: $16.538 x 1012 - $5.600 x 1012 = $10.94 trillion in excess of $5M each owned by top 0.999% of American Households. We can infer from the trend indicated in 4) that less taxes for the top-floaters did not raise all boats. Ours and our government's debt made the top 1% richer. Cuts in entitlements and social spending for 90% of us will further exacerbate the ill distribution that has already impoverished or imperiled most Americans. the imbalance grew with every bubble and “cyclic downturn” that collapsed or brought down the economy. We've been told there is no zero sum game.

Malthus knew better but being better said better let them starve or die in war, as dictated by market forces.

Tax Wealth Now!

http://www.agkaiser.org/posts-2011/Where-Is-the-Money.pdf

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

Something ain't quite kosher here ! So - who is hacking the source code or has written a 'timer-bot' to 'keep upping this comment' ?!! That sh*t ain't funny or fair so thought I'd share, even if you don't care !!!

<dreamzzz of bed>

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (1321) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 year ago

Maybe the hacker simply reposts it and deletes the previous. Personally, I think this data needs to be repeated over and over until it displaces some of the lies that are used to program the trolls. The cultivation of an idiot population's not funny to me. Not fair either. No apologies here.

And I worked on the formatting and wording each time, because I'm sometimes obsessive about such. I think it still needs some work. Wadda yu tink?

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

"No apologies here" sounds like de facto admission of something to me - is 'wadda tink' !!! "Obsessive" is probably another insight !! There is nothing stopping you re-posting your comment several times over several threads and tweaking it as you go but squatting the 'BCT' section seems more than a tad disingenuous to me ! You asked - I answered.

ad iuducium ...

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (1321) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 year ago

Overzealous. I'm sure of it but I won't cop to disingenuous. The troll devils made me do it. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

Ok. Chill. No harm done as such. Have you seen "The Midas Formula : Trillion Dollar Bet" ?

"The history behind perhaps the greatest formula ever created in finance: 'The Black-Scholes-Merton Options Pricing Model'. Two of its creators were awarded the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1997. A year later their hedge fund 'Long Term Capital Management' (LTCM) had collapsed with staggering losses of $100 billion due to significant leverage of the strategy."

radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ...

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (1321) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 year ago

Black-Scholes-Merton options pricing model:

Hoc sugit valde!

But fast algorithms that hold stocks for a few seconds and suck money out of the system with no investment value whatsoever and that could be stopped if the trolls in congress put a fair tax on stock trades nutrientibus maxime.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

"Quants : The Alchemists of Wall Street" :

"'Quants' are the math wizards and computer programmers in the engine room of our global financial system who designed the financial products that almost crashed Wall St. The credit crunch has shown how the global financial system has become increasingly dependent on mathematical models trying to quantify human (economic) behaviour. Now the 'Quants' are at the heart of yet another technological revolution in finance : trading at the speed of light !

"What are the risks of treating the economy and its markets as a complex machine? Will we be able to keep control of this model-based financial system, or have we created a monster ?

"A story about greed, fear and randomness from the insides of Wall Street." Thus. re. "hos sugit valde", yep, this sucks - big time !!

quod me nutrit me desruit ...

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (1321) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 year ago

They like a "fair tax" but apply that sales tax to stock trades and 2nd homes and the cons will forget fairness as they remind you the world's not fair and gov't shouldn't pick winners unless themselves are picking and picked.

quod natura non dat Salmantica non praestat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_phrases_%28Q%29

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

Consider 'The Tobin Tax' further & The Scum Bankster's visceral resistance to it :

The Greedy Scumbags will not countenance a sliver of <1% by way of a 'Financial Transaction Tax', despite the fact that the rest of us pay Retail / Purchase / 'Value Added' - Tax, at quite exorbitant rates . Avarice and the deep desire for there to be no light ever shed on their 'High Frequency Trading Systems' motivate The Banksters, who are 'Parasites' by any definition of the word. So, from your link as listed :

quod scripsi, scripsi ...

[Deleted]

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Taxes should be based on net worth.

[-] 3 points by equibble (34) from East Point, GA 1 year ago

I'll bet the trolls face those facts bravely!

[-] 2 points by agkaiser (1321) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 year ago

Yeah, they'll show their courage by voting it out of sight ASAP! Of course they don't fear the truth, do they?

[-] 3 points by trollneg (27) from Zebulon, NC 1 year ago

Are they idiots?

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (19202) 1 year ago

The real question is: Why is so much exploitation of workers and consumers allowed? Why are the American people not put above profits? This will be our downfall. No question. In the end, historians will say the destruction of the middle class and the subsequent increase in poverty with the concentration of wealth at the very top, was a huge factor in the decline of this civilization.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (19202) 1 year ago

Excellent links. Thanks. This is a key issue.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

Corporate profits are currently at pre-slump highs, CEO pay is again soaring, the wealth of the 0.01% billionaires and multimillionaires has reached new levels of obscenity. However working-class ('cause if we need to 'work' to finance our lifestyles - that IS what we are!) living standards continue to fall, not only in the United States but in Europe, Asia and throughout the world. In every country the watchword is the same : austerity for the masses, while the ruling elites have never had it so good !

The fork-tongued proponents of austerity would have us believe that nations, states and communities must all sacrifice public education, public services and healthcare in order to 'balance budgets'. Yet the same politicians who preach that there is no money for vaccinations, school lunches and services for the elderly, can always find the money for corporate tax breaks, payouts to defence contractors and wars of whim. The Co-opted Politicians tell austerity lies but the people are pushing back !!

There is a new politics afoot in America & this 'bw' at large, a politics that challenges the lie of austerity and the lie that says that unlimited military spending is necessary, as Americans and Their Allies from around the world rally, march and vote to put human needs ahead of Corporate Greed and the 'Military-Industrial Complex' (about which President Eisenhower warned) - it is no surprise that there are groups that can understand that the next politics requires an inside-outside strategy that challenges the lie of austerity and the lies that lead to wars of whim. Those challenges may play out inside existing political parties and outside them - perhaps even inside the corridors of power but definitely - in the streets !!!

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (19202) 1 year ago

Well said and I hope you are right that we are moving in the right direction. I know we are trying to.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

"The American Dream Has Become a Myth" (Interview with Economist Joseph Stiglitz) :

"The finance industry is to blame for the growing divide between the rich and poor in the United States", says Nobel Prize-winning economics professor Joseph Stiglitz. In an interview with 'Der Spiegal', he accuses the industry of preying on the poor and buying government policies that help them get richer.

ipsa scientia potetas est ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (19202) 1 year ago

That is a great interview. And, evidently, after watching the debates, neither candidate gives a damn that the American dream is a myth.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

"The Betrayal of America's Middle Class Was a Choice, Not an Accident", by Amy B Dean :

The sad 'POTUS-Wannabe' debate was an extended, excruciating, extremely un-funny & indeed - sick, Joke ! The interests of The Vast Majority of 'Working People' (ie those that need to 'work' - whatever fkn 'class' they think that they are or have been told to believe that they are !!) -- in The USA were just not addressed despite copious lip-service. Obomber is a Corporate Captured Client whereas Romoney is not so much 'client' as he is 'Capturer in Chief' !!!

Frankly 'bw', the mind boggles at the utter lack of any real representation for The US 99% in The US demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy !! Jill Stein anybody ?!

spero meliora ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (19202) 1 year ago

Thanks for the great links. Outing Romney for what he really stands for is critical, but, sadly, Cornel West is right when he says Obama is a disaster and Romney a catastrophe. And, yes, President Jill Stein sounds good, if not only a dream.

Better things are to come. I feel it.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

"One in Seven US Seniors Live in Poverty" :

The elderly will soon make up a third of the population in more than 60 countries, according to the UN. However, even in wealthy nations like the United States, many seniors do not get the care they need and where one in seven seniors are living in dire poverty !

Romoney or Oblah-blah - neither really gets it, tho' there is possibility that Obummer once did. Maybe that vestigial conscience was what troubled him in his lack lustre performance in the first 'Presi-debate' - or maybe he is beginning to have second thoughts but can't say so. In any case Romoney, Ryan, Rubio and the likes of The Koch Bros., are licking their lips at the the prospect of further abject predation and parasitism for them & their Randian Reprobates !!

Meanwhile, people like the vunerable lady in the video are deemed 'austerity's collateral damage' in the the richest, most powerful nation on earth !!!

Thanx 'bw' for your heart and spirit here. We can all flag a little in the fight & we hope "better things are to come", it's just that will it be for all of us ?

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (19202) 1 year ago

Wow. That video is heartbreaking. I found it interesting that the narrator had a British accent. We wouldn't want to out that kind of thing here in America!

Listen. I'm gonna hold out hope for all of us, for the 100%. I'm gonna hope that the 1% finds love in their hearts and puts greed aside and that maybe, just maybe, better things will come for us all. For myself, personally, I focus on the little things and the love I have in my life, because the world is really much too depressing.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

"America's Duopoly of Money in Politics and Manipulation of Public Opinion", by Charles Ferguson :

"Behind the divisiveness lies a deeper bipartisan consensus in which donors own democracy and there are no votes in reform", from the maker of the excellent doc. 'Inside Job' ( http://vimeo.com/24981578 )

May we all focus on 'the micro' with a view to 'the macro' and search for a better tomorrow - for us all in this 'bw'. Further, if asked to describe my politics, I would say 'Libertarian Socialist' and the reason I say this is your wee meditation on 'love'. For me, 'L<3VE' is the base vibration of Socialism, which is just a word but with L0VE as its fundamental Vibration, Spirit and Animus. ommm mane padme hummm .~*~.

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (19202) 1 year ago

Good article, thanks. From it: "Voila: an election in which there are a dozen elephants in the room, and neither candidate pays them any notice at all; an election that Obama can win because he's somewhat less bad, somewhat less utterly bankrupt, than the other guy."

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

LOL !!! That was exactly the quote from the article that I had contemplated quoting !! Further for you and others, I also attach : "Expanding the Debate Exclusive : Third Party Candidates Break the Sound Barrier As Obama-Romney Spar", by Democracy Now ! :

"As President Obama and Mitt Romney squared off for the first time on Wednesday night, 'Democracy Now!' broke the sound barrier by pausing Obama and Romney’s answers to get real-time responses from candidates Jill Stein of the Green Party and Rocky Anderson of the Justice Party. Jill Stein and Rocky Anderson joined 'Democracy Now!' for a live special just miles away from the Obama-Romney contest at the University of Denver. Today, highlights from our "Expanding the Debate" special with the voices of all four candidates, showcasing the broadened perspectives on the critical issues beyond the Democratic-Republican political spectrum."

This is a very important glimpse into how things could be and indeed are - beyond the Wholly Corporate Owned BS-MSM in The U$A !!!

Finally, "The Secret GOP-Dem Effort to Shut Out Third Parties", by Alexander Reed Kelly :

multum in parvo ...

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (19202) 1 year ago

I think the Presidential debate the other night served third party candidates well. Everyone is talking about them today and thinking about what our options are now that the failure of the two party system is becoming more and more apparent.

And, thanks for the links.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (27542) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Neither candidate went in that direction ( wonder why ) - I mean there have been those in this country that have done spectacularly well before during and after the economic meltdown - even because of the meltdown.

Huh.

You don't think it wasn't mentioned as it might get too many people thinking and taking a whole new look at the last decade and a half?

[-] 7 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

The Utterly BS debates are designed to exclude any 'Left Analysis' & last night was a sad joke between 'Corporate Captured Client', Obummer and 'Corporate Capturer in Chief', Romoney & The US 99% can and we should expect NOTHING at all from these Abject Wankers !!!

Superficially, Romoney looked good because he believes his BS whereas Obummer knows that he's very far from 'hope & change'. Could he be a 'Second Term Surpriser' ?!!

The biggest, deepest & darkest fear of The Parasitic 0.01% is a clear, concentrated, coalescing 'Class Consciousness' amongst The US Citizenry !!! 'Divide & Misrule' is the name of the game as The Class of Oligarchs Make Out Like Bandits !! The 'Kochs' are crowing as a nation of Lions led by Donkeys - being farmed and fleeced like Sheep happily heading for The Slaughterhouse and reared as 'Turkeys voting for Thanksgiving' - shudders at dark thoughts of what may be around the corner !

caveat emptor ...

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

grim

[-] 3 points by Renneye (3343) 1 year ago

I respectfully disagree Matt. I would call it......'strong'......'refreshing'!

This...I think is the level of malcontent we need to get the masses to arrive at, in order for them to rise up against the ruling elite 'oligarchy'.

Encouraging peaceful protest and non-compliance has/will happen naturally as we go along, from the peace-loving among us...which is 'most' of humanity.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (27542) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

At this point in time - unless there was a spectacular un-looked for unsuspected immediate outbreak of popular support that blitzed the airwaves from now till election day forwarding Rocky or Jill - then the best outcome for this years race would be for an Obummer victory.

The only chance for saving grace at this point in time will come from who is elected in the state races. Going forward getting good people in place through state elections and forwarding the peoples legislation in the senate and congress in the state as well as federal governments.

This is how we must proceed ( IMO ). With state by state campaigns for issues like Move to Amend and One subject at a time legislation and campaigns to ban fracking and end the use of fossil fuel.

[-] 8 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

Prior to Occupy Wall Street the main people railing against bailouts were right wing populists. Now even Republicans have said they don’t want to be seen as defenders of capitalism because to many it means defenders of Wall Street. OWS has shifted the conversation to saying inequality and Banksterism are the real problems. There has been a surge in left wing activity and that is the best chance for change.

Workers and ordinary people don’t always win but they are fighting back. Even before Occupy Wall Street, in February 2010, 36 percent of Americans said that they viewed socialism positively. The way that Americans think of themselves and their country has been challenged. Increasingly people feel their children will have a worse life than them. The idea that America’s best days are behind it is growing but this brings into sharper focus the fact that, when it comes to workers’ rights, they don’t have a defender in the electoral sphere.

These things help to shape the conversation that is possible and test the balance of forces - and just sometimes they can produce results.

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

speaking up maters

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (27542) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Yes - OWS and ALL of the Occupy Groups are changing the conversation - and more and more of the public is waking-up.

This fact is why mittens refuted his whole year of campaign rhetoric last night in the 1st debate - as this Sociopath this compulsive psychotic liar finally heard his campaign people telling him he had to deny all of what he has said in public and leaked private talks as well if he was to have a chance in hell to win.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

Consider : "Political Fraud" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koT2HxenZ5U [10:15m]

&"Koch Brothers Exposed" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTwqkl8BqSc [60m]

fiat lux ...

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (27542) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Direct Democracy - the people must be holding the reigns of power - not the peoples representatives. This is exactly why history gets short shrift in education - because those in power do not want the public to be aware of the failures the reasons for those failures of past societies - BETRAYAL OF THE PEOPLE. Good video shadz - Consider : "Political Fraud" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koT2HxenZ5U [10:15m]

Yes - absolutely - shout it out - &"Koch Brothers Exposed" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTwqkl8BqSc [60m]

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19980) 1 year ago

Lest we forget : "Full Secret Video of Private Romney Fundraiser" :

Also : http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/secret-video-romney-private-fundraiser .

e tenebris ...

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (27542) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

People - please share and forward, circulate these videos - if you think the public should be aware.

[-] 1 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 1 year ago

" Why is so much exploitation of workers and consumers allowed?"

The public is deliberately uninformed.

Everyone who grows up in America hears a non-stop, unchallenged message from birth that America is the richest country in the world, capitalism is the only economic system that works, your freedom depends on capitalism, the allocation of income is mostly fair, anyone can be rich if you just try hard enough, if you are not doing well, it is your fault, not the fault of the system.

Our entire mainstream public discourse and the politicians that are allowed to run for office are dictated by the media. And the media is owned by billionaires who have every financial incentive to make sure their stories keep capitalism and its exploitation in place.

Society is only going to change by educating workers on the exploitation that exists because they have every financial incentive to put an end to it.

The solution to the world's problems is to educate workers on how much money they are losing to exploitation, to educate them on how much more income they would get paid in a system that does not exploit them, and to then organize them into a single union so they have the power to change the economic system and put an end to the exploitation.

Workers have the basic human right to refuse to work in an economic system that exploits them. They have the basic human right to freely choose to only participate in a system where they get paid 100% of the income they produce and they get paid based on how hard they work.

And once they are organized into a single union, they will have the power to enact a law that pays them this way.

As you know, that is what I advocate here.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (19202) 1 year ago

Excellent comment. I agree and the truth is not as complicated as they would like us to think. Thanks.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

elf just posted this to me, it actually answers some of those questions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5kHACjrdEY

as far as your conclusions the math says it's true calculus teaches us that this system cannot continue in nature it will break down the graph I suggest would show this in a meaningful way, IMHO.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (19202) 1 year ago

That is an excellent educational video. Thanks frf and elf. Awesome.

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (1321) from Fredericksburg, TX 1 year ago

See the L Curve:

http://www.lcurve.org/#

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

I don't have "excel" it timed out on my computer

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 1 year ago

Dry reading version:

http://ftp.iza.org/dp1938.pdf

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Thanks brighton, but I'm pretty sure everybody who can read already knows this the question is how do we reach the rest?

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 1 year ago

Clearly that is the real challenge and the solution is complicated therefore not reduce-able to a sound bite

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

post as text file

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

It is tough but sometime sound bites to fight sound bite when they say freedom, we say freedom to see a doctor when you're sick, when they say broaden the base, we say raise taxes on working people to lower rates on millionaires? There may be better ones but damn we got to do something.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 1 year ago

Fight fire with burning water, so to speak?

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

yes, I had to accept a long time ago that other people were just never going to be as jazzed about calculus as i was, but you still got to try to reach people, even if they don't want to understand what happens when what goes up comes down.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 1 year ago

Check the Stiglitz article I posted re the American Dream. He addresses the upward mobility issue.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

I always check your posts, thanks I'll look for it.

[-] 1 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 1 year ago

7 in the top 40 made it either through leveraged buyouts or hedge funds. I think that's revealing.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

In my bio I talk of how the money is a target for con men cooking up money making schemes to enrich themselves, I guess i'm saying I'm not surprised..

[-] 1 points by DebtNEUTRALITYpetition (586) 1 year ago

this might help a bit.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/05/pf/taxes/top-400-highest-income/index.htm

Google tip, don't forget to check out the images option when you do a google search, especially anything to do with numbers.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

This one talks about income and doesn't capture how many people use all they can make just to get by while others pile up the wealth.

My concern is that we are reaching a point where some have so much it is affecting opportunity across the country. If someone would compile the data to show how little net worth so many have compared to the net worth of the 400 richest, I have heard it reported that the Wall Mart family has the same as the bottom 147 million Americans, if that is true then the top 400 added up just might get people's attention...then plot it year over year and the constant upward trend would be easy to see...

[-] 2 points by DebtNEUTRALITYpetition (586) 1 year ago

Excellent points. That is why I recommend inverted interest rates on savings. Those with less money get higher interest rated dividends on their savings, those with more money, get less, the billionaires of course get the least.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

We once did something like that, it was very simple the first $400 in interest/dividends was tax free, it does the same thing and is simple to apply. We could do say the first $1,000, then say 15% on the next $10,000 then regular rates do it for dividends and cap gains with exception for the house you live in like we once did.

[-] 1 points by DebtNEUTRALITYpetition (586) 1 year ago

Except that the wealthy still get the highest interest rates, no?

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 1 year ago

has something very similar to what you want

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph

the second link includes a bar graph with Forbes top 400 its outdated but only by 8 years

http://workingthoughts.com/2009/04/24/wealth-distribution-charts-and-graphs-1991-2008/

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

The second one gets close, but turning the info into a ratio makes the info less accessible to most people, even took me a couple of minuets to figure it out and I like numbers, the one I suggested would bring it home better I think, but thanks there is good info.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Daniel Barton's first link has an interesting graph on Change in Share of Income from 1979 .... if you look at 1999-2000 you can see how badly the Wealthy were hurt by the DOT Com Crash. Then consider how they were still hurt in 2007 not quiet recovered, and back in the frying pan (at least for some of them or maybe just clients/investors).

I think this shows why it was so important for Hank Paulson to "Sell" the Martial Law in the Streets line to get the first Bail Out Responses. Some of the Wealthy were getting hurt and they had a plan to get rich.

Well it is just a thought.

[-]1 points by DanielBarton (857) 1 day ago

has something very similar to what you want

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph

the second link includes a bar graph with Forbes top 400 its outdated but only by 8 years

http://workingthoughts.com/2009/04/24/wealth-distribution-charts-and-graphs-1991-2008/

↥twinkle↧stinklereplypermalink

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

The "out of balance" graph shows that 60% of the people own less than 10% of the country, if the taxes were applied according to how much of the country you own at least taxes would be fair, but as it is the 20% own over 80% but pay far less in tax, we really should address the disparity in wealth though and that won't be easy remember they are fighting for their children and family wealth that lasts forever.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Open the vision a little further. There is a lot of Government Land and Corporations have the rights to exploit much of Land Wealth. And now I wonder if this isn't on purpose.

How much Wealth do Corporations control vs the 90% or 99%?

I'm guessing JUST AS WE DON"T KNOW HOW MUCH MONEY CEOs and Mitt Romney Earn or Hold ...We DON'T KNOW how much wealth corporations, Shell Companies, Foundations, and Trusts Hold.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

The top 535 CEO's control a lot more economic power than the 535 members of congress, and they are accountable only to themselves.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Ha! So is Congress! I'm just Sayin'. Well sort of half true there. half joking about Congress being elected by Main Street, half joking about Congress being accountable to anyone...

So you see Timmy... Corporations control most of the world and the government, but in school they will be teaching you that the US Congress is Elected by the People and Answer to the People on Election day. But everyone knows Money buys power in this world today, that corporations and wealthy people get their way, and that Congress is made up of actors and businessmen that get to be "Middlemen" for most of the big deals in America.

Wow, sounds sad. How can we tell our kids? What age should we tell them about politics? Maybe when they have graduated from College and University, so we don't ruin it for them.

How sad. Not sure how I feel right now. I'm sort of glad I don't have teen kids.

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 1 year ago

i preferred the first link also i think it also showed the corruption in congress

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Yes. I have seen other charts this year from Businessinsider.com. They had 40 charts on the economy and economic crisis. I notice the charts actually look a lot like charts that I have found from the US CBO or US Treasury. They are often the same charts.

Anyway David Kay Johnston has pointed out that the IRS doesn't gather certain data that would help flag corporations and wealthy taxpayers for audit or review. It would increase Tax revenue and keep people honest.

Both State and Federal tax agencies seem unwilling to take on wealth tax payers by collecting a little more data. ANd of course the IRS gets presure from Congress every once in a while to stop bothering the wealthy campaign contributers.

But data is great. There are always more questions. ANd there may be ways to slice the data to come to new conclusions.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/42905

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/OutlookSlides.pdf

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Overview

http://www.fms.treas.gov/fr/index.html

http://www.usfederalbudget.us/federal_budget_detail_fy13 (Don't believe this website on projected Defense spending for 2017 - I've never seen the DOD budget shrink)

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 1 year ago

The data will be presented in these types of ratios it will be impossible to get a flat line answer like you so wish. But youre welcome and happy to help

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

I'm pretty sure the graph would be exponential, it should not be at all hard to make, I read where someone figured out that the Wall Mart family had as much as the poorest 147 million put together, this would be doing the same thing for the whole fortune 400, then display the answer for each year since the 400 has been published, not hard to do just getting the data, the graph would be simple and reveling bacuse it would be exponential.

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 1 year ago

if you look at the second link one of the bottom graphs shows this

the wal-mart family owns 14% of the wealth in America

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

oh man the bottom pie chart is what I'm talking about (reach through the computer and b****slap me now), if they did that for each year since they started printing the 400 put it in graph form so people could see how it's grown, but that bottom pie chart damn, the top 400 have as much as the bottom 51%,and you know they don't pay 10% as much in tax as the bottom 51% and that's the problem in a nut shell.....

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 1 year ago

yes its part of it and the information is out there it only took me a few minutes to find that information

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

But it was from 2009 the percentage is much higher now and the age of the info shows how little info there is about the real issues of economic disparity. We need more people doing this work and we need to get it into the media news stream, I think OWS could do that, but people give you a lot more attention when you take a stand not just shout "shit's messed up" I recently looked at the TEA Party's web page, they know they're in the game and they continue to get attention, OWS won't pick a side and run with it...

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 1 year ago

OWS shouldn't pick a side in fact it should become its own party.

Data takes time to gather and process even though its from 2009 i would say it hasn't changed more than 5-10%

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

If we want to do anything we must remove the GOP from government if we can't see that and work our asses off to make it happen, well I don't think America has much of a chance, the last thing we need is more elections like the one in 2000 where Nader helped to put Bush in the White House.

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 1 year ago

And this is where you lose me

no one party is to blame with both are screwing us in the ass

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

I do see a consistent theme in the GOP, where I see conflict in the Ds, so I see opportunity

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[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6439) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

I feel your pain, but still I don't mind reporters getting paid, and ads are better than fees....I think...I do like the British TV thing everybody pays a tax and nobody has to watch ads...