Forum Post: This is not a political movement!
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 10, 2011, 7:27 p.m. EST by MegMcG
(8)
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Please be mindful that voting will not solve this problem of corporate sponsorship of politics, our votes are bought by the lobbyists who draft the bills that the officials in their pockets vote for without reading.
Voting new politicians treats the symptom, not the disease. It also fans the flames of separatism which is the last thing we need right now.
This is an ETHICAL issue, not political.
Thank you! finally someone else sees that!!!!!!!
To me we the 99%ers are those that have no voice in this country. It doesn't matter if you are a Republican, Independent, Democrat, Tea Partier, believe in Socialism or Capitalism. Contrary to what we believe none of us actually has a voice in this country. We have been taught to believe that if we elect our respective parties into power that our goals and ideas will be done. Well guess what people, it won’t. The only people in this country with a voice are the 1%ers and they have no allegiance to any specific political party!
Who are the 1%ers you may ask? Well I say they are the large corporations and special interest groups who TRULY run this country. They are the groups of individuals who spend millions upon millions of dollars each year to convince YOUR congressman, YOUR senator, and YOUR President to do what best suits them regardless as to what's in the best interest of the rest of the 99% of this country.
Think about it, the root of every problem we face as a country regardless as to political beliefs boils down to who's willing to pay the most money to see their agenda done. So until we fix this system of legalized BRIBERY also known as lobbying this country will never ever be the place we dreamed that it could be.
Oh and for those of you who don't believe me, ask yourself when was the last time you tracked down your congressman or senator in the capital between meetings and offered up a large sum of money in order to see a piece of legislation passed that best interested you?
That's right. We need a People for Equality Bill. Written for the people, by the people and of the people. Signed not, by a bought congress making empty promises for years upon years but instead by the people of the US. This current system has run it's course. We need a fair and equitable system that serves the interest of ALL Americans. We cannot have that with the ninnies currently in the system be they dem. rep. ind. green or any other. A new system run by the people. No one is saying it will be easy. Rarely is anything worth its salt easy.
It had better get political and pretty fast, because politics, elections and the ballot box are the only ways to change anything. End corporate control of government? Vote for candidates of that same frame of mind. Do you not realize that Republican plutocrats in state houses and legislatures across the nation are quietly rigging the 2012 elections in their favor by their stringent new voter ID laws that effectively disenfranchise millions of mostly left leaning voters? Get real and get busy qualifying voters with photo IDs.
the only way we can express ethical issues and have something change about them is to bring them up in POLITICS.. weather you like it or not, we live in a democracy where if we want an ethical change we MUST say something about it. I'm not agreeing with the way Washington operates at the current moment, I'm just pointing out the harsh reality.
I agree that we must say something. But we have a lot of voices left to be heard from. I don't think this movement should rely on the political system that serves more than one master.
Ditto!
How can we expect any politician to recuse themselves from lobbyists? how can we expect any politician, of any party, to stand up to the rushing roar of special interests clamoring at their door? I don't give a hoot anymore what a politician will SAY they will do or even what they have done. The way their job functions is broken. You can have a hundred plumbers look at a leaky faucet. It's another thing entirely to have a crew come dig up the yard and fix the pipe.
This sure is a political movement. Maybe not in the sense that it's a democratic or republican movement. But for responsible leadership. My opinion is in this link:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-wall-st-occupy-dc/
et me put it to you this way. more organization less protesting, because your protesting stupid, blind, ignorant, and without meaningful strategy.
the only way out is a paradigm shift. protesting is really running away from the work. You want real social change you must do that work or you will in the end just go spin up all your energy and then let corporate oligarchy shaft everyone anyhow because you won't have the leverage or the sense of how to stand up really for whats important and crucial.
Without critical emergency immediate organization, this is doomed, and every moment that people fail to sit up and take notice of that is a moment it spins further into entropy and chaos and gets larger and effects more people in a chaotic and entropic fashion. it will take mor eenergy to redirect a badly directed organizational mess than it takes to get it right the first time.
and let me tell you. its hard to learn any lessons when everyones out learning the hard way in packs, and not listening to each other really and not sharing their experiences and not learning from each others lessons. The learning curve itself suffers.
There is nothing more crucial or more immediate than coming back here to the forums and then creating a wiki and 1001 sub forums in response to it. by contrast merely demonstrating is an infatile and self defeating con scam that was probably funded and will now be taken over by left wing oligarchs.
gawdoftruth, you certainly have the right perspective here "because your protesting stupid, blind, ignorant, and without meaningful strategy." but perhaps the choice of words is not correct. Understanding will perhaps temper that. Consider that most protesting are children of television and universities, all corporate entities. They know very well something is wrong, not just exactly what. Therein is the reason this thread is titled as it is. And leesang82, points out a relationship to hidden agenda. "This sure is a political movement. Maybe not in the sense that it's a democratic or republican movement. But for responsible leadership. My opinion is in this link:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-wall-st-occupy-dc/" I looked at that link and find the same basic problem that I find everywhere else, not that the link does not have an accurate perspective, its just not comprehensive. Serious cognitive dissonance results from "comprehensive" , so I won't go there. I will simply say IF 9-11 is considered, THEN all kinds of bizarre stuff can happen. It is a political movement but one taken by people that KNOW they are going to be seriously desperate in their lives soon, if lawful government is not created. They are using the only strategy they can generate that they THINK they can trust in. The problem is that the basic info they are thinking with came from corporations rather than law and psychology. Those two things are our best indicators and methods of understanding behaviors. Currently behaviors in government suck.
Choice of wording. sometimes severity is called for.
so i think we can both see, that the core strategies they are missing are the ones which matter most, because there are underlying issues that merely protesting can't address.
Further, they are programmed to protest and not do the evolutionary work, which is a self defeating pattern, which will lock them into epic failure.
These problems have roots so deep in our culture that it's going to take a lot of voices a long to time to hit the same note. There is no conductor, this is an organic growth protest that is spreading through conversation. This is the first American movement that has been accessible globally through the internet. The scope and the breadth of people opening their eyes and coming out of their homes to meet and organize is stunning. We have barely begun, the end game is no where in sight.
that has a main line entropic path which it runs down. If it does that it fails. Organization is critical. Emergency. We need a wiki and sub forums two weeks ago. The longer we don't have them the more nonsense, noise, and confusion there will be. You arguing the point with me is a neat example. You have no clue about sociology, no clue about game theory, no clue about systems theory. You are arguing in ignorance, with an advanced polymath, and i am telling you FACTS and you are telling me warm heart warm fuzzy comfort double think excuses for why its okay to be lazy. Thats the problem. Ignorance. Your duped anti intellectual, the corporate oligarchy has everyone by their dumbledown until people snap out of it, wake up, and get smart.
Voting can and WILL solve our issues.
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I feel that our best chance at reform is to get corporate money out of politics. But I disagree that this is impossible through voting. If you get enough voters demanding change, you will see change. The problem has been in keeping focus. The 1% people in power have been very good at throwing out red herring issues that distracts people from their real interest.
But I want goodies damnit. Whoever promises and delivers the goodies is who I am voting for. 1) Free healthcare Mayo Clinic style. None of this Canadian, British or Russian crap. Only the best for me. 2) Forgive ALL of my debts - student loans, credit cards, auto loans, mortgage, and my bookie. 3) Free housing and a stipend of $5000 every month. Now THAT'S what I call a living wage. BoooyaaahhhH!
OK but I have taken part in removing a Senator and a congressman from office who helped perpetuate the fascism that lead to there being a 99% and a 1%. They were without principles and they allowed this. The other side is that the American people also allowed it by not being involved in the process.
Totally a political issue, hopefully voting will help!
Politics and patriotism? As much as certain people may be in some kind of delusional denial, it's about the establishment of this country, an idea (a good one), not any political party and/or form of government. Proclamation of direction was spoken as true fact. What the H E double hockey sticks are we still doing here? They have life by the short hairs and they are straight up F bombing it up. All this talk of doing away with Social Security (something that shouldn't have been gambled away because it should have never been touched), just what does that exactly mean, doing away with it or calling something else, like just another move for project save own ass? P.S. No you can't take "it" (whatever) with you, why? Because "it" isn't yours. Now if someone would like to go hide in a hole somewhere, good luck (FYI don't come out). P.P.S. Well if it were the Titanic the standing orders (and/or gentleman thing to do) after women and children first should be fill the life boats, everybody else find and lash anything together that floats for the person (or people) to your right (or left), and if anybody hands anyone a rock, well then that's enough reason to put anybody over. If you are ever on any side of a disorganized sinking ship, stick with the side saying "come on it's you and I" (not me and you). Before anybody says that what I said/say was a threat for murder in "putting anybody over", FYI Billy Zane's character put a bullet through his own head for being a failure in that movie. +
Well, having special, separate 'caucuses' for 'people of color' - which has been going on in the movement - fans the flames of separatism; why do they do that? It's SO divisive and counterproductive. Politically correct apartheid is still apartheid. We shouldn't be having color conscious, race based caucuses.
It's a matter of an emerging global conciousness, this is an INNER revolution.
Noble effort, but living in the information age the people needed for jobs are ones with backgrounds in math science and IT. Organizations will be running meaner and leaner you must adapt and change or die....Don't hate the players learn how to play the game, because the march work and development keeps moving. I know it sounds mean I don't mean to be that's not my intent, but for those of us developing advanced technologies and advanced manufacturing we juts don't have the skilled labor we need...start learning today the internet is full of information to get started.....Don't get left behind!
Thank you! So very true. It's a human issue. It's an issue of not knowing what it means to live in a society. It's an issue of blindness. It's an issue of small mindedness. It's an issue of greed. It's an issue of selfishness in all individuals 99 and 1 percent.
thats silly. of course it is a political movement. whats needed is for us to form a new party and elect all of our own peeps and then make new laws. anything less than that and you just let the corporate oligarchy co-opt your movement.
to get serious requires a few things they don't have. like chat admins who aren't ego serving propaganda tools, a wiki, 1001 sub forums, an actual game plan, a straight up political platform... you know.. basic organizational things sane people do BEFORE protesting.. like figure out a diplomacy and logic centered metaprocess to give their chatadmins so that they don't really just drive out even more people than the trolls. Adminatrolla. trollaAdmin. Whats the difference to somebody whos got the truth facing a propaganda tool abusing admin powers to push their agenda? how can you prevent such a thing? Metaprocess. did i mention metaprocess? and science diplomacy science psychology science sociology and all those textbooks to read B4 protesting?
you can't have capitalism without a free(SLAVE) market. but you can have a free market without capitalism. And thats strangely the only way it CAN work.
Marketing 101 was fascinating. I admit thats a lot less than a bachelors but its sure more than enough to see whats really going on given the other things I know. Capitalism is not the problem since it does not exist. corporate oligarchy is the problem. capitalism has never been tried. I am a democracy guy. in order for real democracy to function a free market system is required. Thats not capitalism. thats a free market system. there is a subtle difference there which most people would miss. I will again repeat. Neither capitalism nor marxism nor communism nor socialism has ever existed. All of those governments were oligarchy pretending to be something as a con scam. Telling that simple truth gets one banned out of the Chat by either a capitalist or a socialist whos pissed you just said their pet ideology isn't real. It isn't. anybody who thinks that it is is accidentally playing for team corporate oligarchy as a tool. the ONLY system worth talking about is DEMOCRACY. how democracy HANDLES a FREE MARKET system is dynamic and interesting and NOT capitalism.
o. yes. no. yes. what? making change is not reliant on changing the money system one tenth as much as it is on changing the informational ecology. Going to a gold standard as an idea is a proof of ignorance, not a solution. Really the end game is we evolve out of money. To do that we evolve first new currencies and new economic strategies. this leads to economic singularity in about 50 years. If everyone is a millionaire how much you get depends on exactly the material valuation of that money. Which is to say that by the time money becomes obsolete everyone will live like the current millionaire. Tangible items to other tangible items? the real economy is about ideas, change the ideas and everything changes. the problem with the tangible economy is it does not change; its a static reality. you can't make a meaningful gold standard with only enough gold to represent on millionth of the economy. You can make a purely imaginal money system work; but it has to be subject to moral and ethical laws. This is about pinning down those moral and ethical laws and implementing them in new currencies; not trying to imagine a control freak impossible non solution because of the simplicity with which you go about thinking over the problem.
once again. there has never been a socialist or capitalist economy. in all instances such nations were oligarchies. using a mask and a con scam and telling their dupes and pwns that they were something other than oligarchy. the big hump to get over is that the USA oligarchy and the Soviet oligarchy are in on this lie against the rest of us TOGETHER. Neither of them was ever anything other than an oligarchy. both claimed some other system in order to have US fight over the ideals of THAT system while they secretly shafted us all playing a completely different game.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150343790359248&set=a.10150264906064248.348293.511989247&type=1&theater
May I remind you that our current system and our military are more organized than you could even dream and look where that has gotten us?????? Sorry that this is not textbook enough for some of the population.
The military is organized, to a point where they do not act of their own free will. They obey their country. The 'current' system is not organized, which is what is causing the issues at present. There are many ways to game the system for personal gain. If it were as organized as you say then we would be able to easily methodically solve the problem.
how system a is organized has nothing to do with system B and its lack of organization. in fact the military is badly organized. your argument is in essence that bad peoploe use organization, so organization is bad. thats silly.
its time to wake up and get organized, not diabolize crucial strategies because other people have used them.
The military is badly organized? Let there be a disaster that calls for a great number to aid. No other organization is as well able to organize. It's because there are few in charge and many sheep.
look, from an evolved pov, they are still a chaotic top down log jam of a mess. They may be more organized than others, but from a systems theory and game theory and hard science perspective, they are an immoral, irrational log jam of human tragedy destroying every life that becomes involved with them.
My point was simply that just because a group is organized doesn't in any way necessarily make it superior. Case in point. The OW is still in its infancy and will be organized soon enough and when it is.....watch out. This is a revolution and it sometimes gets messy!
let me put it to you this way. more organization less protesting, because your protesting stupid, blind, ignorant, and without meaningful strategy.
the only way out is a paradigm shift. protesting is really running away from the work. You want real social change you must do that work or you will in the end just go spin up all your energy and then let corporate oligarchy shaft everyone anyhow because you won't have the leverage or the sense of how to stand up really for whats important and crucial.
Without critical emergency immediate organization, this is doomed, and every moment that people fail to sit up and take notice of that is a moment it spins further into entropy and chaos and gets larger and effects more people in a chaotic and entropic fashion. it will take mor eenergy to redirect a badly directed organizational mess than it takes to get it right the first time.
and let me tell you. its hard to learn any lessons when everyones out learning the hard way in packs, and not listening to each other really and not sharing their experiences and not learning from each others lessons. The learning curve itself suffers.
There is nothing more crucial or more immediate than coming back here to the forums and then creating a wiki and 1001 sub forums in response to it. by contrast merely demonstrating is an infatile and self defeating con scam that was probably funded and will now be taken over by left wing oligarchs.
I suppose I'm just more understanding of a 4 week old than you are...Rome wasn't built in a day. I know you want immediacy and I do too but remember this isn't about just you and I. It's important to protest. It's important to rally. We look at each other face to face, we listen to the stories, opinions and ideas of the common and not so common people giving their time and patience at the protests. We see their blood, sweat and tears and not just words. This is grassroots at it's finest. I've been waiting 3 decades for this. We have many college students who are desiring to do this right..not just jump in willy nilly. Organization is happening. It is taking time. Be patient.
it would have been important to protest and rally AFTER doin gthe homework. without the homework done your a MOB not a social movement. Your right this is not about me. this is about how 10 thousand people or less get their message out to 300 million people instead of letting the msm frame you their way or letting the dems take the movement over. So no. Its no longer relevant to protest because you are not handling the process well enough and are losing it to making back room deals with serious CIA pressure on the few core leaders they can manage. Combined with plants and other assorted games the movements being co-opted and the ONLY thing that can save it is LUCIDITY of the kind that comes from a wiki.
this is not grass roots in any case. its astro turfed. your a bunch of left wing pwns because the dems didn't have the back bone to stand up to the right wing themselves.organization is NOT happening. I'm being patient, its been two weeks now. still no sub forums, still no wiki; two chores each should have been two hours each.
Whats the hold up? there are only two possible answers. incompetence; can;t manage to get act together; OR intentional blocking. don't actually share the goal of waking the people up just want to host a big con scam left wing stir.
THIS is what organization looks like. take a long hard look and consider it carefully. until you guys GET THIS you GOT NUTHIN.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/corporate-oligarchy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thetruth-socialismcapitalismcommunismmarxism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-versus-corporatism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/no-war/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/help-me-understand/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-a-love-story/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/sociology/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/energy-101-solution/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ethics/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/break-your-left-right-conditioning/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nader-kucinich-and-paul/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/5-facts-you-should-know-about-the-wealthiest-one-p/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/i-am-homeless-joe-jp-morgan-chase-accidentally-for/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/can-we-end-the-fed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-end-the-federal-reserve-and-what-do-you-replac/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/where-are-we-and-how-do-we-move-forward/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/things-wall-st-did-were-not-illegal/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/teaching-the-occupation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-forum-needs-structure/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-not-your-personal-billboard-for-your-politi/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/systems-theory-primer/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/organize-inform-take-action-effect-change/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/better-website-needed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nonviolence-the-only-path/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-not-against-capitalism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-is-not-about-political-stripe-it-is-about-bas/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/national-initiative-for-democracy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-third-political-party-the-movement-of-the-middle/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/300-fema-camps/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-a-false-flag-operation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-this-will-not-work/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/paradigm-shift-now/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-proposal-for-focus/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-the-bullshit-posts-and-get-organized/
You sound fearful. This is not right or left but it is human. What generally makes a left person in my experience is someone who has sat side by side with people from all walks of life. Who has schooled with peoples of all kinds without judgment but with friendship. Who live in neighborhoods with a cross section of society. Who dine with folks of every kind. OWS is looking at this party system which has served to divide humans in unintelligent ways. We all need to get past our petty views of this vast and beautiful world and find ways for allotting for greater freedom and equality. In this country we have always had to fight for equality and this is one more example. That my friend is what this movement is about. Equality is not easy but worthy. We all need to give, we all need to bend a little in order to have equality for all. Organizing a movement of this size is going to take time. You will live through it so relax, take a deep breath and let it happen.
letting it happen means really watching entropy suck everyone into a stupid log jam and then nothing consequential happens because of the lack of organization.
NO, I'm going to push, and push hard, because unless occupy etc turns and takes a 180, and goes back in the direction of order instead of running away from the work, the outcome will be nothing in particular.
You seem to me a waste of time. I see your point of view but it's wasted. It's old. It lacks vision. Everyone isn't in a log jam and especially you. Go do whatever you would be doing if this wasn't taking place because you are not necessary for this movement. You will make not a bit of difference one way or the other so set yourself free.
lol. my point of view is the new thing. it has more vision than you can imagine. everyone is in a log jam, and its still my problem to break it up.
You saying blah blah blah. You have no clue. Without the doors i am showing to the movement epic fail is inevitable.
it might be true they could find those doors eventually on their own. But probably not.
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True but it will take Political Muscle to create change. By its very essence this is a political movement for ethics. People need leaders who pledge to publicly and outspokenly support the neccessary change to restore our Republic.
We need SOVEREIGN RULE of the economy by the people and an elimination of money from public office and campaigns
Political muscle or Overthrowing the government completely that has failed the people.
If that's what it takes. Make no mistake.. this is war. There is a small chance to work the system and we should try that first.
There is one President candidate who is very outspoken against "corporatism."
Just sayin.
It's too late for this this government. Their time is up.