Forum Post: The Shocking Lack of Evidence Supporting Flu Vaccines
Posted 11 years ago on Jan. 13, 2013, 9:23 a.m. EST by john32
(-272)
from Pittsburgh, PA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
"With the flu season ramping up, many are looking to vaccination as a "preventive" approach. Those who abstain are often accused of being uneducated, or worse, socially irresponsible. Nothing could be further from the truth.
As it presently stands, it is not sound medical science, but primarily economic and political motivation which generates the immense pressure behind mass participation in the annual ritual of flu vaccination.
It is a heavily guarded secret within the medical establishment (especially within the corridors of the CDC) that the Cochrane Database Review, considered by many within the evidence-based medical model to be the gold standard for assessing the effectiveness of common medical interventions, does not lend unequivocal scientific support to the belief and/or propaganda that flu vaccines are safe and effective.........."
continued:
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/01/the-shocking-lack-of-evidence.html
What you're saying isn't really any secret and not all that shocking. The current vaccine is claimed by the CDC to be effective for about 62% of the population. Vaccinating the population won't directly protect every individual from infection the hope is to disrupt the spread of the flu.
Simply washing your hands frequently can give you a 50% chance of not being infected. Add in avoidance of those infected, disinfecting surfaces that make contact with large numbers of people, and not touching your eyes, nose and mouth you could probably achieve the same level of individual protection. The CDC probably knows human nature being what it is, most people are negligent in taking those simple steps, so they recommend the vaccine.
I contend ;according to what has transpired, the vaccine may be the cause of this stronger flu and the F.D.A. must go away.
I'm smart enough to inspect my own food, testing it for dangers; and I run my own drug clinical trials - when I need them
F.D.A. must go away - Rick Perry knows the truth
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This post has what ? to do with what? Relevance to OWS/Occupy?
It is a nice post as they go.You are one hundred percent on target.Most of them now days are just a platform for one of the two coke/pepsi political partys.
Informing the 99%
Of what?
Of being wary and to think for themselves before they get a flu vaccine....to get them to research the topic for their own livelihoods....for their health.
And your personal experience - is - what? Mine ? I have had good experience with flu shots.
It is not over, ask the seniors in lock down at care home and not allowed visitors they can not dine in dining room but are locked to rooms and they got their flu shot too.
Your point being what? Also a care facility can not make you take medication - your Dr. may prescribe medication - but unless you are incompetent - No One can make you take it.
That's great, I'm glad you're happy with it...just providing information and people can do what they want with it. Not trying to force people to do something.
My personal experience is i havent had a cold at all (flu or otherwise) in 5 years since modifying certain things during the winter months...and i dont' get a flu shot.
Seems to be more of a fear feeding distrust article/post then a helpful effort.
Read Arrowsmith - about the caveman days of medicine ( funny that as it was not that long ago ). Read up on the 1918 influenza.
Perhaps you might then recommend that people also read what happened in the not to distant past that brought about the research into flu vaccines.
Or perhaps we could study ways to diminish the flu that don't have the potential health affects of vaccines? And that might work a whole hell of a lot better? Whats wrong with that?
For your education :
What is a Virus?
What - are you gonna invent an anti-viral to spray all over the earth and put into all water supplies? Kill all viruses - sterilize the earth. Hhmmmm somehow I don't think that is gonna work - somehow I think in trying we would make a huge mess of our environment . . . hmmmm
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The flu vaccine is what we have to date in the direction of eliminating the flu. As to working for something better? Medical science is continuing the research - but at this point in time what we have is the flu shot/vaccine. There is nothing wrong with looking for a better remedy - continuous process improvement - and in that regard perhaps you want to publish/post an article like this : USA needs more effective flu shots, experts say - as it is educational - it talks about efficacy of current treatments and the need to get better treatments - what it does not say is avoid the measures that are available today.
Just trying to get people to familiarize themselves with the issue...and the fact there are good alternatives:
http://www.naturalnews.com/036652_vaccines_government_lies.html
I agree we need to work for better treatments and solutions for this.
I am thinking DKA of all the money they make from these vaccines, one. And, two, all the people who will get the flu who have no health insurance, can't afford meds, etc.
You can get a flu shot for 5.00 around here ( Mn )
When I was still working there was a period when I didn't get a vaccine ( most of my life actually ) and every year I got at least one bad case of the flu.
One year I decided to get a flu shot ( offered where I worked ) - figured what the hell? give it a try. I did not get sick that year or the next few that I did the same ( get the shot ) - when I was working it was covered by my insurance. Now I could continue - but have not because my public exposure is very little. But this year I got a really nasty case of the flu - picked it up over the holiday season - somewhere in a store or at a get together. I am thinking I would have liked to have gotten the flu shot instead.
The flu shot is. Cheap because the goverrnment subsidizes it with our tax dollars what does it really cost us ? Probably a lot more than what you realize; flu industrial complex.
elf - been a long time.
It is still good to question the motives of what they are doing with our healthcare, I think, esp. when so many lack insurance. Glad you are better. It's very bad this year.
Thx ( for the well wish ).
Yes the health care industry is pretty fucked up as is the insurance industry as it seems is also the FDA and other federal agencies. And as such it makes people unsure/distrustful of medical care they can get and do get.
What I am saying is - there are good health care practices as well - preventative measures being among them. Not enough preventative measures are taken by the public - and it is in fact due to the other BS that is allowed to go on = runaway costs for most care and denial of care to some and ..................
H3N2 virus is the one that is occuring now. I have read that we have 7 deaths and I have also read that we have had 15 deaths in the state that I reside. I have also heard that we have at least one hospital that is turning people away currently.
So, are we looking at people who are being fired for not getting the vaccinations or are we looking at what is currently happening? Or that it is a sham altogether?
Some hospitals are requiring their staff be vaccinated to avoid passing the virus from patient to patient. Many are not. Vaccines are simply another tool, they are not anywhere near 100% effective. This years vaccine is said to be 62% effective. You have to base a decision on your personal health and the level of risk the flu poses for you.
Yep. We had someone at a hospital fired up here already and it is an issue currently in many states. Dealing with the general public poses health risks as it is. I simply wanted to know which direction that he wanted to take this and note if he was aware of what is currently happening.
I personally think it's a corporate money making sham. Build up the fear factor and scare everyone into getting flu vaccinations. Flu vaccinations that for a number of years (and still may today) contained poisons like mercury. Brilliant business plan...scare everyone every year into thinking they need flu vaccinations...and then make billions when they go in to get them.
All of this nonsense instead of really looking at why people get sick in the winter...what nutrients are we deficient in during the winter that causes illness? How could we feed our bodies so that our immune systems would ward off these things? There wont' ever be studies done on that though...because there's no money for it. There are many things that have been shown to dramatically lower the risks of getting the flu that are safe...but because money doesn't reside in those areas they won't be explored.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/04/08/more-proof-flu-shots-dont-work.aspx
LOVE Dr. Mercola. He's the best and he was my doctor until a couple of years ago. He's the only doctor I completely trust to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth..AMEN
I hear ya. That's awesome you got to go see him.
There is no large profit in flu vaccine. It is difficult to make, has a very limited shelf life and most sales are done through agency (set price),not private. And a large amount gets tossed after the season. Having been in the industry, I know first hand the risks and complications of this process. Stop with the CT stuff. Think of the deaths we would have without the vaccines. Flu has been around for a long time, it's not going away either, especially with eating habits. Hygiene is the most effective method and avoidance of contact, but that is the most difficult thing in the winter when most of us are in close quarters during the season.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500690_162-4296175.html
http://www.wnd.com/2009/12/118262/
Flu will never be completely gone....i agree. Even vaccines don't claim they can do this. We're trying to find ways to limit it.
"especially with eating habits"
You sound very much like you were in the business for many years. Since changing my diet 5 years ago....I haven't caught a cold once....not once..not even a sniffle. I work in an office environment surrounded by people that get the flu every year. I'm one person though and that's not a major study....what i'm saying to you though is that there is no incentive to do major studies on the benefits of supplementing the elderly with different nutrients during the winter because there is no pay off for what that research would reveal. So research gets funneled into the usual BS areas that will make money for whoever is investing in those particular areas. For instance, IV vitamin c given in large doses has saved individuals on their death beds with viral and bacterial infections that couldn't be cured by western medicine methods. There are a whole host of things that are incredibly easy to do to limit the flu during the winter months....that work incredibly well...and i'd bet my money on it given a fair chance in studies would blow flu vaccines out of the water.
While there may be remedies in natural forms, to replicate to a large degree might be difficult. Research grants are funded from many sources. Government funde R&D is where this type of problem might be solved. Obviously, to acquire funding, it should have payback involved for the tax payers. We do not have the resources to fund every request for every remedy. But I do believe if something is believed to be out there, a research scientist will go after it. As for background, I worked for a big pharma firm, and did project work on complex processes in both sterile and non sterile operations. Making drug products, vaccines, etc. is extremely difficult business and most people have no idea of what a lot of high performing workers have to do correctly every minute of processing.
Yeah i have no doubt your business was very maticulous and I don't want you to think i'm down playing what you did for a living at all. You were in a business that is supposed to save lives and that's a worthy cause. Sorry if it sounded like i was bashing your profession.
"something is believed to be out there, a research scientist will go after it"
I somewhat disagree with that a little. If it is patentable a research scientist will go after it. Things like vitamin C and other supplements are not patentable. Researchers won't fork over millions of dollars to research stuff that can be stolen when their research is over. That's the big dilemma. Not only that but it is illegal to make any claims about supplements because it hasn't been approved by the FDA. But to get FDA approval it costs many hundreds of millions of dollars
http://blogs.plos.org/workinprogress/2012/01/25/how-much-money-do-drug-companies-pay-the-fda/
and once again we're back to the fact that nutrients can't be patented....so noone is going to fork over the cash to get FDA approval.....as soon as they do it every company in the world is going to be cashing in on it and stealing their nutrient to sell to the population for the approved purpose. Not only that - but what company (besides big pharma) really is rolling in enough cash to fork over 100s of millions of dollars to get something approved?
So what does that leave us with? Drug research.....which leads to patentable drugs created by big pharma and FDA approval. It's a very scewed system towards drugs.
That is the price of a safe system, unfortunately. But without good regulation where would we be? Not a good place. I have been and worked in other parts of the world and seen plenty. It is a dilemma. Low cost drugs vs safety.
WTF - you mean its NOT a conspiracy!?!?!?
????
Heard about this yet?
A REAL broad spectrum anti-viral.
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2011/antiviral-0810.html
very interesting - from 9/2011
lets hope this gets here in less than 10 years
Let's hope it gets a fast track.
Here's the latest I can find.
http://www.npr.org/2012/04/04/150003129/the-race-to-create-the-best-antiviral-drugs
I don't know Dr. Mercola, but if you go to his site. you will find the products he sells on his web site:
Free information every day. Most of which comes from published studies...that's why i follow him. I've never purchased any of his stuff.
I also don't see anything that says he is an MD
He's certified:
http://www.mercola.com/forms/background.htm
"University of Illinois at Chicago – (UIC) 1972-1976 Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine 1978-1982 Chicago Osteopathic Hospital 1982-1985 Family Practice Residency. Chief resident 1984-1985 Board Certified American College Osteopathic General Practitioners July 1985 State of Illinois Licensed Physician and Surgeon"
Picture of his diploma:
http://media.mercola.com/assets/images/drmercola-license.jpg
again - I don't know this guy, but is Osteopath the same as MD ?
I read some of his stuff - seems ok - from my entire lack of real medical knowledge. I am skeptical of sites that sell. I would look for back up info on anything medical
Osteopath goes through same type of schooling as an MD...can prescribe all the same medicines and perform surgeries etc. They look at the body differently than an MD though...they see it all as interconnected....so a heart problem doesn't necessarily mean it's just a heart problem...it could be stemming from something else.
I agree with you...I'm very skeptical of sites that sell.
We have two seasons of influenza. Fall and spring. Don't believe in evolution? Watch how strands mutate.
http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/viruses-and-evolution
Fear factor? Oddly enough one doesn't read about the impact of the Spanish Influenza in Europe during WWI. It entered into the US through a port by one of our own service men. The bodies piled up faster than they could be buried. The nurses that made the rounds in homes in cities would eventually get the virus and would die.
http://virus.stanford.edu/uda/
So, thus far we have been lucky not to hit anything quite as bad as this since then in the US. So, until we have anything else in the picture, I would not discard this.
...and on the topic of mutation, folks need to be aware that socializing with immunized people can often lead to contracting a hybrid strain of virus or bacteria ( from folks who take antibiotics) that is more powerful and dangerous. Most everyone I know who was vaccinated this year got really sick and I mean sick for more than two months. Gupta and other media doctors often say the vaccine stimulates the immune system but what they don't tell you is that it's taxing your immune system/weakening it and leaving you unprotected to contracting other diseases...even cancer! Anti-histamines work much the same way..shutting down parts of the immune system and leaving you vulnerable to other infections. The flu vaccine may not contain the same virus that you are exposed to- making it an expensive gamble. I've never had a flu vaccine and don't plan on getting one. Your much better off ( in my opinion) eating a healthy diet..AVOIDING SUGAR and including tumeric, Shitake Mushrooms, Astragalus, foods rich in vit C, leafy greens like kale and collard greens and as much seasonal organic foods as you can.
As long as you don't deal with people on a regular basis that may be fine.
What would be fine?
I deal with folks on a daily basis but I take precautions like the ones I mentioned. Right now, I'm very religious about eating the foods that I mentioned- also lots of raw garlic and I wash my hands regularly or wear gloves.
First off, I am an advocate of healthy eating. I come into contact with people that have all kinds of interesting............funk. Some of which they pick up from hospitals. If you have never had a reaction to a flu vaccination there is no reason to not get one. So, while I think that your choices are wonderful for you-and I am not going to argue that they are not, I am not going to jump on board with the don't get one thing.
There are plenty of reasons not to get a vaccine..both short and long term but if those reasons don't concern you, then keep doing as you do. There are many low tech, safe and low cost methods of prevention that don't harm the immune system or our future resistance. I only mentioned these things because I thought you were concerned about the dangers of viral mutations....I misunderstood. Sorry. .
You don't consider the ill health effects and you don't talk about its efficacy either....I could give you a sugar pill and tell you it wards against the flu...the important point is if it works or not:
A study published in the October 2008 issue of the Archives of Pediatric & Adolescent Medicine found that vaccinating young children against the flu had no impact on flu-related hospitalizations or doctor visits during two recent flu seasons. The researchers concluded that "significant influenza vaccine effectiveness could not be demonstrated for any season, age, or setting" examined.
A 2008 study published in the Lancet found that influenza vaccination was NOT associated with a reduced risk of pneumonia in older people. This also supports an earlier study, published in The New England Journal of Medicine.
Research published in the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine also confirms that there has been no decrease in deaths from influenza and pneumonia in the elderly, despite the fact that vaccination coverage among the elderly has increased from 15 percent in 1980 to 65 percent now.
In 2007, researchers with the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, and the National Institutes of Health published this conclusion in the Lancet Infectious Diseases:
“We conclude that frailty selection bias and use of non-specific endpoints such as all-cause mortality, have led cohort studies to greatly exaggerate vaccine benefits.”
A large-scale, systematic review of 51 studies, published in the Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews in 2006, found no evidence that the flu vaccine is any more effective than a placebo in children under 2. The studies involved 260,000 children, age 6 to 23 months.
and often they do give people sugar pills..this is happening more and more and they are still charging the same price.
I personally believe the vaccine is completely unnecessary and like anti-biotics, will eventually lead to our demise.
Have you see Dr. Mercola's videos on vaccines and bird flu hoax? Also Dr. Weil speaks about obamacare and flu vaccines: http://larrykinglive.blogs.cnn.com/category/dr-andrew-weil/
2010 Cochrane study:
Authors' conclusions:
Influenza vaccines have a modest effect in reducing influenza symptoms and working days lost. There is no evidence that they affect complications, such as pneumonia, or transmission.
It's doubtful there is any evil conspiracy to profit from vaccines. You can get a flu shot at your local chain drug store and at some supermarkets for $30, occasionally there are promotions where flu shots are free. An anti-viral drug after you've gotten the flu costs more (there are some chains that offer it at $40 or $50, but many charge around $100) plus the cost of the doctor visit. It would seem to be in the financial interests of drug companies not to make the vaccine and sell you the more expensive pill later.
In winter people tend to congregate together in groups more with limited fresh air. This makes the transfer of the virus easier in winter. That's even true in southern states. Holliday travel by large numbers of people adds to this winter spread.
It's not an evil conspiracy, it's just a super greedy marketing ploy to capitalize on seasonal fear and sell more drugs. This is what the drug companies do and why they are the most powerful lobby in our country. I know all about it....used to have a girlfriend who worked sales for Wyeth and Pfizer. It's pretty immoral what they do and how they ' bank' on vaccines and secondary illness but it's big business at it's best. No vaccine is free..trust me, someone is paying for those vaccines.
I know nothing is free, some chains pick up the tab as a promotion to get you in the store. The point is it's more profit for the company to sell you the anti viral after you get sick. Someone else pointed it out on here, engineer4 points out the risk,short shelf life, and financial problems. Add in the danger of legal action. Fewer companies are actually producing the vaccines for flu. If it was all that profitable more would get into it.
I wouldn't call 20 billion annual dollars worth of profit chump change. There's a huge profit in flu vaccines. do your homework.
No one does anything for free. The original question though was about the efficacy and safety, there was nothing in it about profit. As I said above you could probably match the CDC's estimate of about 62% effectiveness, for this year's vaccine, by washing your hands, surfaces in common areas, and not touching your face.
When it comes to the profit it's difficult to know what the truth is. I read in one article, the US market share in flu vaccines is $1.6 billion this year, that's sales not profit. Another article indicated future profits for "high priced" vaccines at around $16 billion by 2016. So who knows what the actual profit is. It seems to change with the article.
Personally I don't get the shots. I don't see the benefit as outweighing the risk. I also don't see the total profit as being relevant to me, when the shot is available for what I consider a fare price of $10 to $30.
Take a needle with a bunch of weird stuff that the big pharma companies have come up with?
No thanks.
But it was approved by the FDA, you say?
The same FDA that is 100% filled with big pharma and monsanto executives and lobbyists? Thats not changing my mind, sorry.
Eat healthy (if you cant pronounce it, dont eat it. And food doesnt come in boxes, people!!). Eat our vitamins. And exercise our mind and body.
Would doing that give you a better than 60% of not getting infected?
You just about summed up the entirety of health in about 5 seconds of reading time.
So thankful that you are brave enough to take on this very impassioned subject john32. I was never so sick as the two years I got flu shots. I caught everything under the sun, and they lasted forever. Information is filtering out that the immune systems of the people who get flu shots are being permanently damaged over time.
Anyone concerned enough or curious enough should look up the disturbing information regarding the 'adjuvant' they use in vaccines called "squalene".
It is a goal of the globalists to incrementaly indoctrinate and brainwash the public, so as to enforce 'mandatory' global vaccination, moving towards 'militarization of public health'. Here is just one example...
http://www.globalresearch.ca/sarkozy-s-secret-plan-for-mandatory-swine-flu-vaccination/13835
And...
http://www.project.nsearch.com/profiles/blogs/a-universal-declaration-of-resistance-to-mandatory-vaccinations
Quite frankly, the World Health Organization's track record...is shit!!
.
Alex Jones ALERT!
I thought you said you couldn't stand him?
This is one of his perennial "theories".
Perhaps what you need to do, is study how vaccinations work, instead of applying pseudoscience.
douche bag, partisan hack ALERT! Someone keeps trolling my posts but lacks anything significant to ever say!
Name calling in defense of Alex Jones.
Wonderful.
Did you look up how vaccinations work yet?
I swear you try and just piss people off...i hate Alex and have told you that repeatedly. I'm gonna start calling you George Bush's number one fan....just gonna make shit up..like you do to everyone else.
"Did you look up how vaccinations work yet?"
Yeah i have shooz....give me a reading list of the books you've read on this topic. Careful...i'll quiz you...i've read a bunch of them. We'll compare our area of expertise on this subject.
Pretty sure it's gonna be zilch....kind of like how you spew the fact that you used to be a libertarian but haven't the slightest idea of what their actual beliefs are.
You're a real class act.
You're passing conspiracy theory.
That's not exactly classy either.
What goes around, comes around.
I asked you to search for the truth about vaccinations, because it would help you understand how they work
What do expect OWS to do, even if they accept this theory from Alex Jones?
Protest at every hospital, clinic and drug store in the country?
You first.
It's interesting to see you defending the multi-billion dollar big pharma business. Always thought you were against the big bad corporations. Have fun with that.
http://www.citizen.org/congress/images/Image24.gif
Where did I say that?
Those exact words.
Now we occupy the flu shots?
FROM WEBMD The flu vaccine reduces the odds of getting the flu by 70% to 90%. You may wonder why there's such a wide range. And in fact, it's even wider than it seems: that statistic only applies to healthy adults. It turns out that the effectiveness of the flu vaccine depends on a number of different factors. Here's a rundown of what they are.
The flu vaccine doesn't work equally well in all people. It’s most effective in healthy adults. In young children, the flu vaccine is a little less effective -- about 66% -- at preventing the flu. It’s more effective as children get older.
After middle age, immunity naturally becomes weaker. The flu vaccine won’t work as well as it once did. But since the flu virus is much more dangerous for older people, it’s crucial that they get the vaccine. Even in cases where it doesn’t prevent the flu, it can still reduce the risk of serious side effects. Studies show that in older people who do not live in a care facility, the flu vaccine can cut the risk of hospitalization (for flu and pneumonia) by 30% to 70%. In people who do live in a nursing home or care facility, the flu vaccine is 50% to 60% effective in preventing hospitalization and 80% effective in preventing death from a flu complication.
There may also be slight differences depending on which vaccine you get. Some research shows that the nasal flu vaccine may offer the best protection for children. But it may also be less effective than the injected flu vaccine in the elderly.
Vaccines work by spurring the immune system into action. In a sense, a vaccine "teaches" your body how to identify a virus and how to defend against it. Then, when you come into contact with the actual virus, your immune system quickly recognizes it and fights it off.
So the effectiveness of a vaccine depends on how vigorously the immune system responds to it. If you have a weak immune system to begin with, a vaccine may just not work as well. Many chronic illnesses can weaken a body’s defenses. The CDC estimates that the flu vaccine reduces the risk of hospitalization (for flu and pneumonia) by 30% to 70% in people with chronic illnesses.
I wonder how vaccination would have changed the Spanish Influenza epidemic of 1919? I wonder how many deaths and billions in care costs would accrue if there was no vaccine right now?
Vaccinations are important for heard immunity, not only individual protection.