Forum Post: The Price of Gas Doesn't Drop!!!
Posted 11 years ago on March 6, 2013, 6:44 p.m. EST by shoozTroll
(17632)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
The mantra from the "right" for years was that "if only we could drill for more oil here in the States prices would drop".
Guess what?
We made #1.
We beat Saudi Arabia
Guess what else?
Prices are still close to record highs, along with profits.
http://www.politicususa.com/republican-lie-dies-america-1-oil-production-gas-prices-soar.html
How much is the cost per gallon in Saudi Arabia?
Thank you for post.
Excuse me?
Care to expound?
85 Billion a month to wall st. A lot of that is going into commodities, creating another bubble. The west has a declining population.
We need to stop putting in politicians who accept money from oil companies. To expect anything besides what we are getting would be very naive.
Best way to do that, is make sure oil corporation profits are never so high as to allow them enough to buy our country.
Never so high, as to be high enough to buy the laws that govern them.
Did you notice the part about quarter after quarter of record profits?
Who's nation will they buy next?
Who's State don't they wholly own now?
We all ought be getting the message by now. Instead of complaining about the price of gas, we all better start figuring out ways on how not to use it; or at least not use so much.
They'd just raise prices even higher to make up for the profit loss.
Fealty to WallStreet DEMANDS it.
And how's some poor chump with a minimum wage job and driving grandpa's Olds 88, and living in a 100 year old home with leaky windows supposed to do much about all that?
Chump, stop working for minimum wage, get out of that old house, and walk to work. Ok, easier said than done, but anybody with a hoot of sense knows that situation is not good, and would be working real hard to make that a transient condition.
What I'm talking about is those of us able to make lifestyle choices choose the little ride instead of the big SUV, a sensible energy efficient home vice some big show off house , get a spot to farm or garden, being smart enough to not to live fifty miles from work, and so on...Then the price of gasoline is no longer important.
My ride to work gets eighty miles to the gallon, and I only got eight miles to go. How about you?
How assumptive of you.
On what do you base these assumptions?
Please don't read too much into my pun. I not necessarily saying you're the chump. I'm just saying in general. My apologies for any offense.
The question I need to ask you then, is why do you feel that someone in that position is a chump?
Because Wallstreet played them for a chump?
Because they lost the WallStreet bet?
I'm not sure why you made the assumption.
The only reason I used the word chump is because you used the word chump first. No, I really don't think a person in that position is a chump, but rather more like somebody who is just starting out, or just some somebody who is in an unfortunate situation. I personally was in that situation some long time ago having just gotten out of school, and in between real jobs. What I'm trying to say is that situation is usually transient. Most people will work themselves out of it. As to the original subject, once one is beyond that situation, and even when one is in it, smart is to always be efficient when it comes to energy and also with money.
Whew, I guess I did.......Sorry. it was a long day yesterday.
What I'm saying, is some people are not in a position to do those things and for whatever reasons, they may not be able to get themselves out that position.
Maybe they're old.
Maybe they have an injury.
Maybe they aren't the sharpest pencil.
There are valid reasons.
Sure I understand that. Unfortunately, those who are in a bad situation and cant get out, they are truly screwed. Fact of the matter is, no matter what we say or do or wish, gasoline and other energy prices are not going to go down. There is only one choice; that is to figure out how to do with a whole lot less. As to those bad situation folk who can't get out, that is where we come in with this thing called help and compassion.
Top half says "screw 'em.
Then at the very, very last you speak of compassion.
Are you a libe(R)tarian?
No. I didn't say that. I said they are screwed. That does not mean screw them. And because they are, we ought help and be compassionate.
I couldn't put a label on myself, but I would not say I'm on the right by any means.
Editing does wonders.
Denial does wonders too.
see ya around.
The amount of the bailouts the last 4 years would be enough money to put 35k solar panel systems on all 118m households in the country, and hence all cars can now run off of them as well.
Eliminating pollution like never before, and saving people hundreds per month in gas bills, and hundreds per month in electric bills.
That would be huge. This gov doesnt want that.
Ok we have our sufficient list of grievances.
Maybe we ought to pound out a new constitution, while we're hanging out.
That takes Work, and repubs wouldn't like that or the results
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DXocljc268&feature=youtube_gdata_player
We don't need rep re sent tation
Every purchase you make has an energy cost included. The price you pay for that head of lettuce you buy at the market isn't just for the lettuce. It took diesel fuel to run the tractor that plowed the field, more fuel to power the truck that hauled it to market, and then more gasoline to drive to the market and back to pick up the lettuce.
Everyone who buys creates a demand not only for the product, but also the hidden energy associated with making that product. If you think that you aren't part of the demand equation which raises prices for energy because you buy organic food or drive a hybrid car, think again. The more you spend, the more energy is needed to manufacture those products. More drilling, more pollution, more spills, and more price increases.
Anybody care to share how much they personally spend per month? It's the most accurate gauge we have of measuring a person's contribution to the cost of energy, and the negative consequences of it's extraction that so many people here are opposed to.
I personally spend less than $1000 a month. Compared to the average American, I don't contribute much to energy demand, but compared to the average Indian, I'm a gas guzzler.
I got this life style adjustment program you may be interested in. "Relax, enjoy life by being lazy, and do the Planet a favor" is the motto. The three toed tree sloth is the mascot. He sleeps eighteen hours a day, and grows his food on his back. He always has a big smile on face.
I guess you should have asked the folks that made the statement.
I already knew that.
On the other hand, production is the highest in the World and supply remains at high levels, while demand has dropped slightly.......PRICES are still near record highs and PROFITS are breaking records almost every quarter.....Without fail........
So?
How much did you say it was per gallon in Saudi Arabia?
For years I have used an oil ETF as a hedge against higher fuel prices. Obviously it doesn't do anything about greenhouse emissions but it makes you essentially immune to rising costs for gas and heating oil without a very large investment.
Good for you.
You bought in on the pyramid scheme.
The folks on the left hand side of the video don't have investable income.
http://mashable.com/2013/03/02/wealth-inequality/
They pay dearly for every rise in prices.
Well it isn't like I am all the way over on the right.
I don't like the fact the DeutscheBank makes some money off of it but it works well for me. Just a case of what is good for the goose is not good for the gander. It rarely is. And while I am fortunate enough to not be all the way to the left I am definitely not very close to the right hand side either so I do what I can to stay where I am.
I wasn't being sarcastic. I'm happy you are in a position to do that.
IT'S OK. I assume all of us here worked for what they have, a little or a bit more.
There's just a lot of people to the left of that, that are hurt so much more by these corporate behaviors.
Doesn't investing in an oil ETF increase the demand for oil and raise it's price for everyone else?
It might, though I tend to sell it off as the price of oil rises and pick up more shares as it drops, hence creating the hedge.
Speculation causes the price to fluctuate widely, both up AND down. With a little money and common sense anyone can use these fluctuations to their advantage and become immune to rising gas and home heating costs.
Speculation isn't investment, it's making a profit at another's loss. It's people like you whose artificial demand drives up prices on commodities, from wheat, to pork bellies, to oil.
When the poor go to fill their tank, part of that higher cost goes to you. You win while someone else loses.
Investment is making a profit from another's profit. Invest in a company that makes a bread oven that uses 30% less fuel. The price of bread goes down, the baker makes more profit, the bread buyer pays a lower price, and you the investor receives a dividend. A win win situation.
So if I just bought an ETF made up of oil companies as my hedge against higher gas prices as opposed to actual oil contracts it would be OK? The price of such ETFs rise and fall almost completely in sync with the price of oil/gas so would that be a more acceptable alternative?
Buying oil company stock doesn't create an artificial demand for oil so it doesn't cause oil prices to rise.
What about selling oil futures. Doesn't that cause the price of oil to fall and therefore save everyone else money at the pump?
Speculation had to cause the oil prices to rise before they could cause prices to fall. The housing bubble is a good example.
World demand has dropped? It stalled a bit after the 2008 recession. It's still going up, fueled mainly by China and India.
http://greenecon.net/update-on-oil-consumption/energy_economics.html
Saudi Arabia subsidizes it's energy products, so the price payed per gallon there isn't relevant to the price we pay here.
http://www.bloomberg.com/slideshow/2012-08-13/highest-cheapest-gas-prices-by-country.html#slide62
You're playing a game here.
If the World market pegs it, why would they want to use the XL to lower reserves in the Mid West in order to raise prices?
They're playing you like a cheap fiddle.
The XL pipeline will supply a negligible portion of the world's oil. The real test of what causes oil prices to rise or fall depends on how much you consume per month. If you want to lower the consumption of oil, work on the demand side.
How much did you say the Worlds #2 producer is charging their consumers per gallon?
The fiddle is playing rather loudly.
The cost of subsidized oil is irrelevant. Supply and demand dictate the price. SUV's, oil speculators, mass consumer spending, China and India's new demand all contribute to rising prices that would have been even higher if more wells hadn't been drilled.
Without high demand for oil there wouldn't be more drilling and the associated pipelines necessary to carry it to refineries. Trying to cure the problem of excessive demand by cutting supply will just raise prices further.
Bullshit. In the US supply and demand has been DEAD for decades.
It's whatever marketing tells them the market will bear in a chosen demographic. It's called a price point..
Supply and demand is so easily manipulated anyway, it doesn't even count, except when real conditions force it come into play.
"In the US supply and demand has been DEAD for decades."
Show me your evidence.
Commodities markets and WallStreet.
And always remember the good ship Enron.
Like the current "recession", the laws that allowed that remain on the books, functionally unchanged.
Evidence of "US supply and demand being dead" means something that can be quantified. Show me the numbers.
Show me where the corporations, the commodities markets and WallStreet aren't extracting HUGE profits, while adding absolutely zero consumer value are.
They get there by manipulating the market.
Show me the large corporation with a marketing department that doesn't produce a "perfect price point", with little regard for supply and demand.
That's for the little guys, that they overcharge for everything...
The world you describe has been gone for a long time, if it ever existed.
I'm sorry, I'm not a numbers guy. I live here.
There are a couple of ways the little guy is getting over charged. One reason is apathy. He doesn't take the time to compare between one seller's price point and another's discount. That's the little guys fault.
But the other and most important way he's being over charged is the subtle effect of inflation. Because the value of money is continually decreasing, he doesn't know exactly what that dollar in his pocket is actually worth. Because his employer does know the dollar's "real" value, the little guy get's underpaid year after year without realizing it. Just a few percent a year, but after a few years he's making 20% to 30% less in "real" dollars than he was ten years before, even though it seemed like he was getting a raise every year.
The same thing happens when he goes to buy an item at the store. The price has gone up, his dollars are now worth less, and he still doesn't know the "real" value of his dollar, but the seller does and raises the price a little higher so the little guy doesn't realize it.
The little guy is getting blasted by both barrels of inflation at the same time. One barrel at his salary when he receives money and the other barrel at his wallet when he spends money. He feels the economic pain but doesn't have a clue where the shots are coming from.
They own a controlling interest in virtually everthing they find profitable..
And that's everything.
If they don't own it outright, they control the lines of distribution.
They control the the supply lines.
They own the retail outlets.
Etc, etc,etc.
You can't escape them.
Plus they run everything they own almost exactly like the mafia.
And that includes their favorite fall the FED.
WallStreet directly feeds on the little guy every single day, in virtually everything he does that has money involved.
EVERYTHING.
Back it up with facts then. How do they do it? Step by step please.
Sorry, but nowhere in that sentence did you deal with WallStreet's extraction of the wealth of both workers and consumers.
Both of the barrels you describe are the province of WallStreet.
You don't actually even mention Wallstreet. Anywhere.
One vague reference to "employer".
That's it.
No, wall street doesn't directly feed off the little guy. The corporation he works for does and so do the corporations he buys his products from.
Wall street feeds off the profits of the corporations and the markets unwary investors.
I didn't think you could and you didn't.
Not a single word about WallStreet extraction.
Year after year of RECORD WallStreet extraction.
Nothing.
In fact in your first sentence YOU blame the consumer.
Nothing, is what you've offered.
In my second sentence the method for extracting the funds that the corporations and wall street share is clearly stated as "most important".
The main reason why the gap in economic equality keeps growing is laid out before you and you fail to see it. Before wall street can extract any money, the corporations must make large profits. Please read more carefully.
Supply and demand are meaningless in a centrally planned economy.
The U.S. economy is centrally planned?
Painting in Tampa without a government approved license, bond, and slew of other nonsense is a CRIME. misdemeanor.
85 Billion in monthly bailouts. Politicians under the control of bribes.
When you cannot go paint someones house without government permission, and the top is getting free money at your expense, Im not sure what you call it.
Corruption.
Yep - when people actually say - no f'n way am I gonna pay that for that.
Then, they will lower it just enough so you will, or maybe just a bit higher and market it as a "luxury" item.
Gotta keep those WallStreet pockets overfilled. .
Cert-a-ment-ay
OK, DK.
Was that some new kind of innertube talk? I'm not sure what you meant and I usually am.
Like in certs is a breath mint?
LOL - sorry - a bad try at expressing a south of the border ( Spanish ) certain/definite agreement.
Ahhh
Mente, not minty. Of course I have no idea whether mente is actually a Spanish word................LOL
Certs is a candy mint?
Not to worry though, my bad Spanish is legendary.
Certs is not so bad to promote ( I think ) - fresh breath and all.
If no one wants or need what you have, there is no demand for it. And if someone can supply that thing that is wanted/needed cheaper than you can, then no matter how big your supply is, no one is going to be demanding it from you. Either way, you lose money.
Now, you keep arguing that the oil companies are making "huge profits".
Which means that they are selling something that others want/need (is in demand) and are willing to pay for because no one else is offering the same thing at all, or for the same price (there is no other supplier). Those conditions are real.
You're talking about pet rocks.
I'm talking about what's needed to survive in the 21st century..
How the hell do YOU know what's needed to "survive in the 21st century"? Are you an expert in 21st century survival? Are you some sort of precog? Do tell.
It's a transition from the 20th century.
Why are you angry about that?
Did your needs suddenly change?
Do you live in a different one?
Oh, I'm sorry. I was participating in a thread you started. I pointed out facts about the oil and gas industries, which are inconsistent with the opinion of the person who authored the article you linked to. I also pointed out that your claims about supply and demand make no sense on the most basic level.
To which you respond-
"You're talking about pet rocks. I'm talking about what's needed to survive in the 21st century.."
Which earned this back from me;
"How the hell do YOU know what's needed to "survive in the 21st century"? Are you an expert in 21st century survival? Are you some sort of precog? Do tell."
So, based on the fact that we're only 12 years into this century, and based on the chronology of events in this thread, if I were to be "angry" for some reason....please explain your rationale for concluding that I would be angry about "the transition" from the 20th century to the 21st?
Sheesh.
Sheeesh indeed.
All those pointless words because you don't know the difference between a pet rock and gasoline.
If they don't manipulate markets, explain to me why one their desired effects of the XL pipeline is to raise prices in the Mud West?
In other words, one of their reasons for doing it, is to manipulate that market, in a way to extract even more profit from consumers..
Shooz, don't make me embarrass you again. The linked article is written by an admittedly liberal site with links to the report it claims to be quoting and a careful reading of those reports shows that yes, in November of 2012, the US did PASS up the oil production of Saudi Arabia, for a MONTH.
However, a second link in the article shows that Saudi Arabia was, in 2012, and still is the #1 oil producer in the world.
The charts also outlines the difference between the production of crude oil and production of refined oil known as gasoline and other distillates. The article doesn't prove what you think it proves and the reports it links to don't say what you seem to want to believe they say.
This is why the FACTS are so damn important to me. Because if the FACTS don't support your arguments, they DON'T. And when EITHER SIDE uses spin and manipulation to pretend they DO, it makes us all losers.
Edit-the article is written by a guest poster named "Rmuse". Clicking on Rmuse's info we read:
"Audio engineer and instructor for SAE. Writes op/ed commentary supporting Secular Humanist causes, and exposing suppression of women, the poor, and minorities. An advocate for freedom of religion and particularly, freedom of NO religion. Born in the South, raised in the Mid-West and California for a well-rounded view of America; it doesn't look good. Former minister, lifelong musician, Mahayana Zen-Buddhist."
Which is fine, but I don't view Rmuse as en expert in the oil market, or anything else commodity based. Do you?
Whatever. We're still among the top 2.
Whoo Hooo, we're #2!
The price is still WAY out of line.
Drill baby drill, so we can have dirt cheap gas.
That was what they said, over and over and over.
And over. I still see the occasional bumper sticker.
We drilled baby drilled.
Where the FUCK is the cheap gas they promised?
Here.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3460_162-57401650/face-the-facts-a-fact-check-on-gas-prices/
We're still importing 50% of our oil. Prices aren't going to drop domestically until we're producing more of our own oil than we are importing. Period.
CBS? Who owns that?
It's a year old too.
It's all about manipulation. You know it, I know it, just admit it.
How about fracking? We're gassing ourselves silly and that's not cheap either.
Sigh. Your manipulations are no better than anyone else's hon. So stop pretending they are.
So who owns it?
Why be evasive.
Aren't you one of those that bitch constantly about the "lame stream media"?
The truth is prices are WAY out of line with production and supply.
They have been for a while.
The US is not even in the top 15 oil exporters in the world!
http://www.eia.gov/countries/index.cfm
Edited to replace the word "producers" with "exporters". My bad. Thanks JesseHeffran.
I think you jumped the gun there, Vap.
Your link begs to differ.
Oops. Typed the word producers instead of exporters. Thanks. Correcting that.
The link does show that the US is #3 in production. But it's not #1.
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So what's the solution? Transition to a hydrogen fuel economy. Eventually, we will run out of fossil fuel, that's for certain, so it's just a matter of time before we will have to do this, unless we want to go back to the horse and buggy.
Production of hydrogen fuel would require the development of nuclear energy on a wide scale. So, we would need to intensify our efforts to develop the technologies for recycling nuclear waste, eliminating or substantially reducing the danger of nuclear waste, and expanding our fuel supply dramatically.
In the not too distant future, we could progress to the use of nuclear fusion, a perfectly clean source of powerful energy, capable of producing vast quantities of hydrogen fuel, and eliminating our dependence on fossil fuels all together.
I get all that. Ecat, LFTRs We need to do it all, but that's not the current rub and it doesn't address whats said in the OP.
How much is the price per gallon in Saudi Arabia?
Keep in mind that are now #2.
What is Ecat and LFTR?
I suppose I didn't address the OP's explicit question, but isn't the question behind it "What do we do about the high price of energy?"
Years ago, we could have chosen to continue progressing in the direction I mentioned here, but we allowed ourselves to be side tracked off of it.
If we would have stayed the course, we could now have affordable fuel and a booming economy.
We got off topic???
Whoa, first time that's ever happened...........:)
anywayz.
E-cat is small batch cold fusion, although some argue about the exact process. It works.
http://ecat.com/
I believe it runs up 10 mega watts, though it could be less. It would be enough to feed neighborhoods, or in smaller sizes, perhaps even homes.
LFTR
Liquid
Floride
Thorium
Reactor
It needs a small amount of uranium to start it up, but uses cheap and easy thorium for continuous operation. I believe India is building some. Another advantage is it's ability to absorb the refuse from current style reactors.
Fuel and energy are the topic, we're not too far off, if you consider what goes on at this site otherwise.
If someone asks the correct question, in a polite manner, I'm always happy to help if I can.
Your welcome.
And you as well.
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48 cents a gallon.
$3.50 here and it was $3.95 a week or so ago.
How come it wasn't $0.48 when we were #2?
We are a bad peoples and we should feel so lucky for being allowed to breathe the same air.
How long before they start building domes over their gated "communities", so they don't have to share that either?
HUH - for some reason they do not feel the need to rape their people on the price of gasoline??? Interesting.
Ya, and apparently when you don't feel the need to jack the people around it's called subsidizing. I think that this basically is another way of saying---you don't have any skin in the game or some such crap.
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What's a preposition?
Why is it that all oil producing countries have lower gasoline prices? They must be doing something we don't either know how to do or won't do.
Practicing some level of honesty.
We have a lot of trouble doing that.
Taking all the staples of the American house and turning them into a casino:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_Futures_Modernization_Act_of_2000
Repealng this disaster would be a nice start.
Just like the report that was kicked out last year said it would.
Suckers.
What's their lie that makes the extortion work this time around?
FEAR of Tesla Motors?
IDK, it's going to have to be a hell of a lot bigger than the last one.
Natural gas and all forms of fuel should be dirt cheap about now.
IF supply and demand actually had anything at all to do with it.
And that is the problem. Meanwhile back at the ranch it is all Drill Baby Drill and denial all the way around. They don't care who is harmed in the process.
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