Forum Post: The Occupiers are not taking this seriously.
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 5, 2011, 4:02 a.m. EST by ScrewyL
(809)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Watching the various live videos, It seems that everyone is having fun going through the motions of protest and occupation, as so many have before them--almost as if it's a culture of protest; it certainly seems to be attracting those same types.
However, make no mistake: What you are calling for, and standing until, is very real. It's very serious.
It is GOING to require force, becuse the people you are up against are not playing around. They are not practicing. They have done this methodically, in full knowledge of the potential consequences, and they are prepared to meet real resistance with violence, under any of a thousand pretexts.
In the past, nonviolence worked because the tools of oppression were not fully developed, the minions of government had a conscious, and The People at large had the will to enforce their cause.
Today's reality, however, is the culmination of a dark plan which has had every intent of success, despite whatever the efforts or voice of the people may be. This is not politics. It is not a matter of "Free Speech". This is totalitarian domination, and war.
Though I am very sorry to say it, The People; YOU people--We--will soon have to enforce (y)our will, using every tool available--or else succumb to theirs.
Go ahead, flame me. It makes no difference.
There is very little fun involved in sleeping on cold ground or concrete every night, going without showers for weeks on end, when having to find a place to relieve oneself is a major project every day and ultimately being beaten by police and sent off to jail. With all these privations, living at an occupation is a joyful experience because the social relations that develop there and the system of decision making portend of a much more democratic, just, peaceful and loving society in the future, one in which force and coercion no longer dominate human social relations.
Correct, RedJazz. The key is persistence. That is where people win and lose. Persistence always pays. Out there most people are apathetic. Even the banksters have gotten into a routine of - well - destroying people. The police are not really interested in us either. They do not see us as a threat. The politicians do however. The best thing is to fly above the radar of the banksters, annoy the hell out of them. Fly below the police radar though. The police are not the enemy - the banks are.
Sure; I get that, and it's a beautiful thing. Unfortunately though, you don't yet have the "consensus" of the tyrants who seek unchecked power over man's destiny -- and I suspect it will take more than drum circles and backrubs to obtain compliance from them.
We don't have consensus yet from the vast majority of the American public. Beyond that I'd say that a very substantial fraction of the American public is not even aware of the existence of OWS. That's why the main job of OWS now is to organize, organize, organize. The percentage of "support" that OWS gets is not really a very useful guide because most of that support is essentially passive. What really matters is the number of people active in OWS. Once we have 10 or 20 million people active in occupations, then I think we might just begin to see a difference.
10-20 Million?
How many people do you suppose it would take to drag ole' Rockefeller from his bed into the street?
Rockefeller? What century are you living in? I'm a Quaker, but even among the Society of Friends I have met very few absolute pacifists. That said, the more people committed to something the more likely it is that it can be won nonviolently. In most (though not all) genuinely revolutionary situations part of the process of transition is winning over at least some elements of those forces in society that have a sanctioned monopoly on violence, which is to say the police forces and the military. We are a very, very, very long way from that, but that's the way it typically happens.
You should be careful about levying insults from a position of ignorance. There are powerful Rockefellers sleeping in their beds right now, today; as we speak.
My vague reference was both artful, symbolic, plausibly deniable, historical, and literal. Don't read too little into it.
--about the police and military, as I explained. These tyrants thought of that.
They have foreign mercenary forces who have no sympathy with your cause, much less the ability to even understand your words, ready-to-deploy.
They have passed all neccessary laws and arranged the requisite pretexts for deployment. They got that one covered.
Again: I am sorry to say it, but force will be brought to bear, and the choice will be to protect yourself and resist, or perish (literally).
That's the plan, and it is already inevitable.
I did not mean to level any insult, but nowadays if people were talking about the super rich they would more likely talk about Bill Gates, Bloomberg or the Waltons than the Rockefellers. In fact, I think that the three of them, randomly mentioned are richer than any Rockefeller. Also, after the Ludlow Massacre in 1913, even Rockefeller himself became extremely embarrassed at the violence which his hired guards perpetrated against striking minors. After that he became a major contributor to progressive causes. He was very religious and he built Riverside Church which has been very supportive of the occupy movement. Today Senator Rockefeller is one of the most liberal of Senators.
So, while one might use the notion of "Rockefeller" as emblematic of the super rich, it is a bit creaky and there are better more contemporary examples.
viva la revolution! down with the system, maaaan!
thats not today's reality. today's reality is seen in the nonviolent uprisings of the middle east, and in the success of ows. were you correct, ows would be a bloodbath, a million egyptians would have been killed, the al-assad regime would be in control for the next twenty years
its the same old story; nonviolence is always the most effective tool people have ever had for mass social change. but if you want to go out and shoot cops or whatever, do it. if your parents taught you that violence is the best way to affect social chance, then revolt. unless you are a pussy.
Regarding your "Occupy Movement" success in egypt: http://wikileaks.org/cable/2008/12/08CAIRO2572.html
And as for your point about "effective tools for social change", I'm not referring to social change. I'm referring to you and your family and me and my family, and all of us being ordered to stay inside, shut up, and do what we're told, or be relocated, concentrated, and possibly even killed. You don't believe me, but it is their plan, and they will do it. No heart-wrenching public display will change their mind.
And finally, keep the personal attacks out of it. You were way over-the-top and out of line. I did not call for violence, and in another comment here I said: "we will be forced into self defense by violence."
you're right. the police will eventually resort to killing ows protesters
lol
editted.
do you want me to say, "you win?"
fine dude, you win. now go to work. its getting late.
I only "win" if, after hearing my argument, you decide in your heart that when the time comes you will protect yourself and everything that is wholesome, viciously, with every fiber of muscle in you, knowing that you are righteous rather than hoping that Evil will be moved by your suffering.
This world is no different than other civilizations that collapse under their own weight. The only variable is scale. Now, when it happens there will be a whole lot more people that get to suffer from the excesses of the few.
Scale, depth and degree.
A lot more people,
suffering more deeply,
for longer.
Time for everybody to go back to their assigned shelter and sign up for food stamps !!
Ha! You call for violence in a country with more guns than people, and act like that is "getting real"! You had better be careful what you want in life, or you might just get it. If this movement ever takes to real, verified, non-staged, non infiltrated violence than that is the minute I am out! I will not have the blood of millions of Americans on my hands! If you are too impatient, or too trigger happy, or whatever to hold to non violence than I think you are violating the first tennant of this cause and should go elsewhere. We WILL NOT SUPPORT VIOLENT TACTICS!
"Though I am very sorry to say it" -- I am not calling for violence. I am pointing out its inevitability because we will be forced into self defense by violence.
And, you are ideologically gatekeeping out of your misplaced pride. Go ahead. Bump my thread.
Find a movement willing to accept the "inevitability" of violence, 'cause this ain't it.
It doesn't matter if you're "willing"
Yes, we do have to realize that what America does best is war and killing. Will we defend ourselves?
OWS won't, no. They will loudly point out how peacefully they were protesting.
HEAR, HEAR!
Anyway, we can totally ignore "ScrewyL", as he is a long-outed TROLL of the "AGENT PROVOCATEUR" variety.
To understand WHAT MAKES A TROLL TICK - AND have a chuckle while you're at it - go to:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-trolls-think-trollosophy-exposed/.
Thanks, I read your post and it was really funny:)
You two done satisfying each other? Thanks for the bump.
By the way, TIOU--whatever, for me to be an "Agent Provocateur", I would have to be paid by some dark smokey evil guys somewhere with the intent to destroy "your" movement.
However, I'm just a man, stating my opinion, for free, and it happens to differ from yours.
Trolls do not believe what they say, but I do. Therefore, I cannot be a troll. That's just about the most overused word on these forums.