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Forum Post: A Case AGAINST Capitalism

Posted 2 months ago on May 15, 2014, 11:46 a.m. EST by struggleforfreedom80 (6584)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Capitalism has for a long time been regarded by many as a sacred cow, something you can't criticize. It shouldn't be that way. Capitalism is an abhorrent, tyrannical, unsustainable system, it shouldn't just be criticized, it should be dismantled.

Capitalism is system in which the means of production are owned privately. In other words, it's a system in which some people own the economic institutions, while others don't. The owners then hire employees to produce the goods and services that the institutions are in the business of providing. Even though the workers are the ones producing the goods that the institution offers, they don't have any say in how the business is run. The ones who make the decisions are the ones at the top -- the owners, the CEOs etc. In other words, a top-down hierarchy in which a small group make the decisions, while the rest of the ones involved don't have a say and instead have to take orders from above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYW1SdQCM7s

This way of organizing production is in other words very undemocratic.

Another consequence of this way of organizing the economy is that it leads to exploitation and concentration of wealth.

Capitalism is as I just mentioned a system where the means of production are privately owned by some individuals, while others do not have this ownership. In other words, some own the means of production that others are using. This allows the owner (the employer) to profit on the users (the employees). This happens when the value of the worker’s pay is less than the value that was added through his/her work in the paid hours; this creates a surplus that the owner of the means of production gets, even though he did not create it.This profit is then used for future investments and more profits. So, the capitalist is making money simply by just owning, not adding or creating value.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMdIgGOYKhs

Since a capitalist economy is based on the need for growth and profits for the investors and owners, this method of exploitation, profiting on other people’s work, will be used by more or less all of them. This exploitation is in other words just a logical result caused by the capitalist system.

In other words, the claim coming from right-libertarians and republicans and others, that in a capitalist economy you're "paid what you're worth", is a myth. Capitalism is based on paying people less than the value of their labor.

Another myth that's presented by the right wingers and libe(R)tarians like Ron Paul, Gary Johnson and the rest, is that Capitalism is based on "voluntary agreements".

This is false. Agreements taking place in this kind of system are far from voluntary. In a capitalist class society you have some people with huge wealth and recourses, and others with very little or no wealth and resources. It’s of course meaningless to talk about “voluntary agreements” in such a society, because the ones owning the recourses, the wealth and the means of production etc, have much more power and control in society; that includes of course that they have the advantage and overwhelming power when it comes to job hiring, negotiations and so on. The workers are in other words trapped in a society in which they, in order to have a decent life or necessities in order to survive, must sell their labor to people who have much more power than they have. This has very little to do with voluntary agreements, rather it's people being forced to accept the terms set by people with much more bargaining power.

In other words, it's a system in which some people, because of their wealth and ownership, have a lot of power and control, including in the labor marked. The owners and employers have much more influence and power when contracts and agreements are being made, and can pretty much set the conditions.

Another myth created by the right-wing is that in a capitalist society you're free to mind your own business and affairs without others interfering in it.

This has no root in reality. The economy affects everyone; it's all-encompassing. We live in a complex, modern society with all kinds of endless networks of economic transactions relations, decisions, etc that affect the economy we're all a part of in all kinds of different ways. Economic transactions that affect others who did not have anything to do with the deals -- so called externalities -- are enormous. There are different kinds of “affairs”: some that only affect you, and the ones that affect others. What you do in your personal life, which color you decide to use when you paint the walls in your living room, or what you do in the bedroom etc, things that don’t affect other people, that should of course be totally up to you, and is your decision alone. On the other hand, if you choose to make decisions that affect other people, for example by being in control of a huge corporation that’s a big part of the economy, and is the workplace of lots of people, well then that’s something completely different. If you make decisions that affect other people, then it's unreasonable to expect that the ones affected should not be allowed to intervene in these affairs.

The same of course applies to the common "If you like libertarian socialism or anarchism so much, why don’t you and your friends just start your own commune somewhere and leave me out”

Well, creating communes and co-ops is an important task that should be prioritized, but the argument above does not hold up. Again, the economy is all-encompassing. A couple of socialist-anarchist communes or co-ops here and there don’t change the fact that the super-wealthy financial elite have the overwhelming power in society.

What the right-wing should come to understand is that when it comes to the economy we’re not, as individuals, living in an isolated bubble of some kind, just “minding our own business”. On the contrary, when it comes to the economy, we’re all in the same boat. The economy is intertwined and all-encompassing; it affects us all.

Right-wing ideology advocating a more or less "free" unregulated Capitalism is not the road to freedom, it’s the road to corporate tyranny: a society in which a small non-elected minority of wealthy individuals and huge corporations have the overwhelming power and control in society.

Right-libertarians have (like many others) good reason to be frustrated and opposed to the status quo, but they’re focusing on the wrong issues. It’s exactly by implementing more and more of these libertarian ideas of deregulation and privatization that have caused a lot of the mess we’re in (cf. financial speculation, outsourcing, pollution etc.) Libertarians, Republicans and others should be, not ridiculed or laughed at, but enlightened about what’s really happening, and confronted with, and introduced to better ideas; ideas of how we can build a more solidaric, democratic and sustainable society.

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121 Comments


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[-] 5 points by beautifulworld (21413) 2 months ago

Everyone read this post.

Absolutely perfectly explained. Thank you, sff. It is crucial that people understand what capitalism is, how it works, and that it is not organic, but man-made, and not ordained by our Constitution.

[-] 5 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

Thanks for those kind words :) Solidarity.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (18130) 1 month ago

''Cornel West, Richard D. Wolff and I, along with moderator Laura Flanders, next Sunday will inaugurate “The Anatomy of Revolution,” a series of panel discussions focusing on modern revolutionary theorists. This first event will be part of a two-day conference in New York City sponsored by the Left Forum, and nine other discussions by West, Wolff and me will follow in other venues later this year.

''Sunday’s event will be about Thomas Paine, the author of “Common Sense,” “The Rights of Man” and “The Age of Reason”—the most widely read political essays of the 18th century, works that established the standards by which rebellion is morally and legally permissible. We will ask whether the conditions for revolt set by Paine have been met with the rise of the corporate state. Should Paine’s call for the overthrow of British tyranny inspire our own call for revolution? And if it should, to echo Vladimir Lenin, what must be done?

''Thomas Paine is America’s one great revolutionary theorist. We have produced a slew of admirable anarchists - Alexander Berkman, Emma Goldman, Dorothy Day and Noam Chomsky - and radical leaders have arisen out of oppressed groups — Sitting Bull, Frederick Douglass, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Fannie Lou Hamer, Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, Cornel West and bell hooks — but we don’t have a tradition of revolutionists. This makes Paine unique.'' from :

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (18130) 2 months ago

''It is capitalism, not government, that is the problem. The fusion of corporate and state power means that government is broken. It is little more than a protection racket for Wall Street. And it is our job to wrest government back. This will come only through the building of mass movements.'' from :

“It is futile to be ‘anti-Fascist’ while attempting to preserve capitalism,” George Orwell wrote - “Fascism after all is only a development of capitalism, and the mildest democracy, so-called, is liable to turn into Fascism.” With a deep shudder .. I thank you for your rather excellent forum-post Andy and solidaritet !

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 7 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

Thanks. Yes, Capitalism IS the problem (or state-capitalism to be more precise). The key is finding out where power is concentrated. Who, by and large control the economy? Well, we all know where power is concentrated in the U.S. The corporations and the financial elite run the show. They have the overwhelming control over the economy and the politicians.

Occupy wall street was spot on.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (18130) 2 months ago

''The key is finding out where power is concentrated. Who, by and large control the economy? Well, we all know where power is concentrated in the U.S. The corporations and the financial elite run the show.''

Beautifully and succinctly put. Sadly too many in The U$A simply refuse to - or can not after years of MSM programming ... see that both sides of the same crooked coin are but faces and versions of the same crooked coin !!! This is the amazing 'illusion of choice' - where tribal loyalties blind the senses !! It's like a delusional disease or mass-psychosis !

How to attain, reclaim or achieve True Democracy ?!!! THAT is the question of our time !! We are ALL in various states of 'democracy deficit' wherever we are on This Good Earth - our shared, very beautiful but fragile hommmme ! Solidarity.

ommm mani padme hummm

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

"How to attain, reclaim or achieve True Democracy ?!!! THAT is the question of our time!!"

Well, that is actually pretty easy to answer: We weaken the power of the financial elite, and we strengthen the power of the workers and the communities. That's done by putting higher taxes on the rich, strengthening unions, enlightening and educating people, organizing stikes, pushing politicians to the left, civil disobedience, putting more people like Sanders into office, building co-ops, workers' takeover of workplaces, organizing grassroots movements etc etc.

The struggle for freedom will be long and hard, but we know what has to be done.

[-] 1 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

How about a Tariff on every item entering this country from abroad regardless of whether the company that made it is US owned or not. Bring the jobs home, when there is plenty of work wages have to increase because employers compete for workers. That's not a total solution, just another step in the right direction. I like civil disobedience, I know several people who have opted out of the Affordable Care Act, simply because the fine is far cheaper than the insurance that they couldn't afford before and still can't afford.

[-] 0 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

Tariffs have been used for hundreds of years in order to violate so-called "free market" principles and strengthen the local economy. That's fine. But as you say, that's certainly not going to solve all the problems.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (18130) 2 months ago

Inform ; Inspire & Educate !!! Agitate & Organise !! Only a Mass Movement of The 99% can deliver us !

Tho' I agree with you wholeheartedly - the usurpation of democracy in The U$A & its metastasing into demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy, really has very deep roots. Further, may I recommend reading this link :

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/powell_memo_lewis/ in particular and exploring these sites to all readers ?

solidaritet ...

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (34934) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 months ago

@People - remember education is not "just" for the average individual. ALL must get educated - one way or "ANOTHER" :

https://occupywallst.org/forum/physical-evidence-again-outpaces-latest-ipcc-repor/#comment-1032926

and

https://occupywallst.org/forum/physical-evidence-again-outpaces-latest-ipcc-repor/#comment-1032798

Show public figures some TOUGH love. {:-])

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (18130) 2 months ago

"There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth ; not going all the way ... and not .. starting."(Buddha) & "Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."(Albert Einstein)

Show The 99% public the 'Love' ; get very 'tough' with the bought and paid for politicians - they are NOT representing those who've elected them - they are facilitating those who co-opted and corrupted them !!!

Thanx for both of those informative cross linkages re. Pat Sajak, DKAt and in compliment, I append :

“Prior to the 2003 invasion and occupation of Iraq, US and other western oil companies were all but completely shut out of Iraq’s oil market. But thanks to the invasion and occupation, the companies are now back inside Iraq and producing oil there for the first time since being forced out of the country in 1973.” – Antonia Juhasz, oil industry analyst and writer, speaking on Al Jazeera & connecting with and directly referencing, the OP - see :

''Capital has free global movement and is organized on an international level and thus is able to play off workers in various countries against each other in a race to the bottom in terms of worker safety, salaries, benefits, labor laws and environmental protections.

''Labor must therefore organize internationally so as to be able to effectively resist a globalized capitalist system. A key element of this strategy lies in resisting all forms of chauvinisms, and reactionary nationalisms that have at times infected the labor movement''.

Ignorance Kills - Knowledge Is Power - Love Over Fear - Justice Is Attainable - Peace Is Possible ~*~

ommm mani padme hummm ...

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (34934) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 months ago

BTW - speaking of = it's all about the oil - it's always about the oil. I sent Tesla Motors an E-mail today ( I wonder if I will get a reply - a non form letter reply if any ).

I asked them to consider a couple of possibilities as we need very much to transition off of using fossil fuel to use other alternatives - clean alternatives - ASAP

I asked if they could please consider the possibility of -

    1. -> Starting a program of their own to refit other manufacturer's cars with their motor transmission and battery. Other manufacturer's vehicles ( including trucks ) as in private individuals used-cars/trucks.

I pitched it as a secondary market ( used car market ) that they could develop - where an individual such as myself or yourself could get a used vehicle upgraded to fully electric - rather than get rid of our vehicle to replace it with another similar vehicle when the time came for a needed replacement ( too many miles ) - as oft times a car can still be in good shape ( physically ) when it's engine and drive-train have seen too many miles.

I stated that there are many individuals such as myself - who will never be able to afford a new car in general - let alone a pricey new Tesla - and that if "they" worked together with local credit unions to offer purpose tied low interest loans - that they might be able to start a program to refit used cars/trucks with "their" engine and drive-train for ( possibly ) the price an individual might pay for a used car/truck.

Doing this I pointed out might increase the sales as well as the production of their ( currently ) expensive technology and drive down cost of manufacture by upping the volume of units sold - which would also drive down the price ( to the customer - as well as to themselves ) of "their" full Tesla produced vehicles - thereby opening their market to a larger customer market.

This I stated ( the used car up-grading ) could establish "their" technology onto the mainstream roadway faster and develop along with new car customers also a secondary market of used car customers ( where prices would be in a range more people could afford to take advantage of ).

  • 2 -> I also asked if they had ever considered ( while their charging station network is still under development ) installing like a 50cc generator/inverter to run ( when needed ) while the vehicles are in operation to provide electricity to the motor and the battery for the purpose of recharging while in operation. The generator/inverter could use any type of fuel = gasoline or propane or methane or or or or eventually hydrogen(?) and would only ever need to run for short periods of time to recharge the main drive battery. So how long/far would a gallon of fuel to run the generator/inverter - last?

This I said might make "their" vehicles more attractive to a wider customer base due to the expanded ( immediately expanded ) driving freedom/range - this would also be an item for the used cars refit.

  • 3 -> This up-grade of other manufacturer's vehicles would also open up a wider variety of vehicle choice to the customer as well - and all Tesla would have to do would be figure out a mating process for non Tesla vehicles. The Mating process being "Basic" motor/transmission mount and drive-train to the various vehicles drive-wheels ( front - rear - AWD - the final set-up would depend on the Tesla choice of manufacture that they use for "their" own line ).

Anyway industry must be a leader in change - to get us transitioned off of fossil fuel - and this could(?) be an option. Besides - with a volume "upgrade" network - what kind of "employment" volume could that mean?

To get industry to lead in transitioning off of fossil fuel - it might help if the public could lead industry by requesting various possibilities for them to undertake - Hey?

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (18130) 2 months ago

Sadly, joined up thinking, technology sharing and retro-fitting the old, goes against the grain of modern - 'returns asap' ; patent protection ; built-in obsolescence ; develop new markets but crush the old, kind of culture. Tesla - despite its forward thinking technology, is quite unlikely to have management capable of realising the worth of your ideas as the management will have imbibed all the voodoo of 'Management Schools' and still be run by accountants. Re. Oil & Crapitalism :

''Capitalism has inflicted war on most of humanity for centuries to acquire the world’s resources and markets. The establishment of capitalism as a global economic system by European imperialists has killed more than a billion people, most of them in the Global South.

''The major reason for the U.S. invasion in March 2003 was to get control of Iraq’s oil. A related factor was the intention of the ruler of Iraq, Saddam Hussein, to sell Iraq’s oil in Euros rather than U.S. dollars, which would have encouraged other oil producers to do the same, thereby endangering the dollar’s position as the world’s reserve currency, which is crucial to the U.S.’s economic viability. The genocidal invasion and preceding sanctions killed three million Iraqis, including half a million children, and totally destroyed a relatively advanced developing country whose people were largely prosperous.'' & see :

''Rep. Kucinich explained how the proposed Bill, now pending before the U.S. Congress, via its benchmarks, will provide for the privatization of Iraqi oil. It requires the regime in Iraq to pass a law called, "The Hydrocarbon Act." If they refuse to do so over a billion dollars in reconstruction funds will be blocked by the Bush-Cheney administration, he claimed. This measure, which Rep. Kucinich characterized as "blackmail," would permit multinational oil corporations---many based in the U.S.--to exercise control over the Iraqi oil. The Democratic leadership in the Congress is giving its explicit support to this legislative device. Unless the scheme is stopped, Rep. Kucinich predicted, we will be looking at an Iraqi War "going on forever!"

Sigh. DK was always so ahead of his time - not unlike you with your ideas above, DKAt. Solidarity.

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (34934) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 months ago

For one = "patent protection" ?

What needs protecting? I mean it is really no different than to install a different aftermarket air-intake to replace the OEM ( original equipment manufacturer ) air-intake - the only difference is the scale of the aftermarket non-OEM replacement. Engines and transmissions get replaced all the time - why must they be OEM ? Ever hear of AMC ( American Motor Corporation ) ? AMC used to buy parts by the lot from any manufacturer = engines - transmissions - power-steering etc etc etc. They would place these other manufacturer parts = GM - Mopar etc etc etc into their cars - one car model would be built using several different manufacturers parts - so one customer might get that car model with a GM engine another customer might get that same model car with a different manufacturers engine or transmission or or or ..... The concept is not new - just the type of application?

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (18130) 1 month ago

All tech for sustainable, renewable and clean energy must be shared asap as patents, copyrights and licence laws will be employed by the 'prophets of profit' and their legal hired help, to further their merely material ambitions & monetary greed. Planet Over Patents ! People Over Profits !! Re.the OP, consider :

fiat lux ...

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (34934) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 month ago

Well - no problem - not really - and - really - not at all. As - the vehicle assembly is already inspected/passed by the safety and standards board as the individual parts have their own patents. Another company must apply for rights to use - and either buy the patent out-right or sign a lease of use agreement and pay for the use for a specified period of time. Now the prior leasing or rights/patent buying would go to other manufacturers building their vehicles ( new ) using Tesla Motor and Drive-train. In the instance of Tesla replacing in a used vehicle the engine and drive train - then Tesla would still own all rights to their technology as would the original manufacturer for their remaining technology. The used vehicle has gone beyond 1st sale - sold to a private party and as such are only responsible for their parts still extant in the vehicle as Tesla would take over responsibility for their parts as pertaining to any warranties and guarantees. Rights/ownership remains proprietary as to the origination of the parts = the body to the original manufacturer and the engine and drive-train to that manufacturer. New manufacture would entail similar agreements and assignation of responsibility to the equipment manufacturer/installer/assembler as would pertain to sound parts provided for the assembly and a sound installation/assembly process.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (18130) 1 month ago

An entire Forum News Post, seems to have vanished !!! It was the latest OWS News Post re. 'The Left Forum' : https://occupywallst.org/forum/osn-leftforum/ !! In my befuddlement .. I'm mentioning it here for the standing record in so far as anyone else cares, lol !

We need two, three or four different electrical engine specs & pssbly 6 or so different chassis and let a thousand individual carbon fibre, monocoque body shapes bloom. In short Tesla needs to share its R&D with the world - as do other manufacturers imo - especially when it comes to battery technologies. The Good Earth needs it ~*~

spero meliora ...

[-] 5 points by DKAtoday (34934) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 month ago

BTW - nobody loses and everybody gains = with your suggestion = all tech available to use by all. Figure end result/cost/profit and divide by all contributors.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18130) 1 month ago

"US Climate Bomb is Ticking : What the Gas Industry Doesn't Want You to Know" :

Appended here as it's a good item that compliments both our exchange here and the forum-post itself.

ipsa scientia potestas est ...

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (34934) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 month ago

Did you see?

https://occupywallst.org/forum/another-day-another-poisoned-river/#comment-1033720

My tweet:

DKAtoday @DKAtoday · 23h

For all practical intents & purposes - why is this parked in limbo? -> https://occupywallst.org/forum/another-day-another-poisoned-river/#comment-1033720 … Implement - NOW - ASAP - Full Speed AHEAD

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18130) 1 month ago

''The Age Of Climate Warfare Is Here. The military-industrial complex is ready. Are you?'' ...

Re. your link and comment re. ''Hydrogen : Nature's Fuel'' - consider that the electrolysis of water (eg by using solar tech !) releases Oxygen and Hydrogen ! This is the principle of free energy, that water ice on the moon will provide rocket fuel in space - so how come we can not have free, clean energy on this, our Good Earth ?!! Answer - Crapitalism - which prefers scarcity over abundance and ... profits over planet !!!

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34934) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 month ago

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (16485) 10 minutes ago

''The Age Of Climate Warfare Is Here. The military-industrial complex is ready. Are you?'' ...

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/may/30/climate-change-war-conflict-military-industrial-complex-syria-egypt-uprising by Dr. Nafeez M. Ahmed ~*~

Re. your link and comment re. ''Hydrogen : Nature's Fuel'' - consider that the electrolysis of water (eg by using solar tech !) releases Oxygen and Hydrogen ! This is the principle of free energy, that water ice on the moon will provide rocket fuel in space - so how come we can not have free, clean energy on this, our Good Earth ?!! Answer - Crapitalism - which prefers scarcity over abundance and ... profits over planet !!!

veritas vos liberabit ...

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

Truly a sad commentary on intelligent life.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (18130) 1 month ago

Re. any ''intelligent life'' on this Good Earth - I'll repeat the reply that Gandhi gave to the question : ''What do you think of Western Civilisation ?'' - when he sagely replied that .. ''I think it would be a good idea'' ;-)

per aspera ad astra ...

[Deleted]

[-] -2 points by shadz66 (18130) 1 month ago

Right & as ''The Case Against Capitalism'' was how sff80-Andy titled his excellent 'must read' forum post, here I will also append and thoroughly recommend, the following important and insightful article :

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] -2 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

my question is - if we transition all cars to electric where do we get the power - coal? we need to get rid of cars - well maybe not get rid of personal vehicles but certainly cut way back. we need to bring back the railroads. create good mass transit

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (34934) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 months ago

my question is - if we transition all cars to electric where do we get the power - coal?

What? You're kidding right? Where have you been? Ever hear of sunlight? Ever hear of wind? Ever hear of Tides? Ever hear of liquid metal batteries? Ever hear about thorium? Ever hear about hydrogen? Ever hear about Geo-thermal? Ever hear about methane ( btw - naturally occurring - better to be collected and burned than to be let loose ) ? Anyway there are plenty of clean alternatives to implement to get off of fossil fuels.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 2 months ago

but DK ....

Solar Panels Drain the Sun’s Energy, Experts Say

This week, a scientific research facility in Wyoming made a startling discovery that is certain to change the way millions of Americans look at the environmentalism movement, after they found conclusive evidence that solar panels not only convert the sun’s energy into usable energy, but that they are also draining the sun of its own energy, possibly with catastrophic consequences far worse than global warming.

http://nationalreport.net/solar-panels-drain-suns-energy-experts-say/

hehehe

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34934) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 months ago

[-] 0 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 11 minutes ago

v cool !! thx

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

Yep - Very Cool - for use as a car/truck/bus etc etc etc etc etc etc battery or even a mega battery for addition to the power grid or or or..........

Yep - so very very very cool.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34934) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 months ago

Solar Panels Drain the Sun’s Energy, Experts Say

aaAAAHHHAAHAHahahahaaaaaaa - report put out by the American Petroleum Institute by any chance? HAHahahahaaaaaaa

[-] -1 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

well I am in the utility scale solar construction business so I know a bit about the sun. do you have any idea how much silver and other resources it would take to build enough solar panels and wind turbines to power our society. batteries are not up to speed yet and may never be - how far can you drive that telsa?? and what do you do when the sun goes down. this is a much bigger project than you seem to realize - I am with you that we need to move NOW towards that future but we are a long way away. we will need a tremendous amount of energy and resources to do what you want and it is unclear if we will be able to - conservation is the first and easiest step.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (34934) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 months ago

For one = http://t.co/9xxgqR4U6N

Get educated - there are alternatives - VIABLE alternatives.

[-] 0 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

get educated?? did you read what I wrote? I know there are alternatives but to generate the power needed requires huge amounts of energy, steel, silver etc - to get the steel requires huge amounts of energy and resources. if you think it will be easy even if we can find the political will you need to get educated

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34934) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 month ago

[-] 0 points by flip (5207) 1 minute ago

going to the moon is fro children - while people here starve for no reason. right if it were up to me we would not be doing space exploration until all lived well here on earth. how you doing with that recycled gasoline - pulling the carbon atoms out of the air and reconstituting it? as I said I hope you are right but it is abad bet and I do not like bad bets - I am making the safe bet - see you in 20 years

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

Going to the moon is for Children? Really?

I do however agree that we ( the world ) should be working on developing a clean healthy prosperous world for all - prior to moving out to the stars. The technology needed to go out to the stars is much of the same technology the we need ( can use ) right here on earth to make our industries clean and self sustaining.

I wonder what the world would look like today - if - for example - after the 1st wheel was created ( stone circular with two flat sides - not even a hole in the center penetrating from one flat side all of the way through to the other flat side ) - I wonder if the wheel was never taken further than that - what would our world look like today?

"Hey Ogg look at this!

Look at what?

Look at this thing that I made!

What is it?

I call it a wheel.

What does it do? Does it do something?

Yes it - rolls.

Rolls?

Yeah ROLLS - look watch this. See? on flat ground rolling this wheel it is much easier to move it than if I were to lay it on it's side and push it. Look LOOK - watch what happens if I push it down this hill - SEE - SEE??? - isn't that amazing? - It just keeps on going - all by itself - WOW and it keeps going faster the further it rolls down hill.

Yeah - huh - but whats it good for?

Good for?

Yeah - Good For - what is it good for?

Ummmm - wellllll - um - it rolls. That's something isn't it?

Sheesh........talk about wasting time - leave that alone will ya? - we gotta drag this deer back to camp - lets go..............

[-] -2 points by flip (5410) 1 month ago

you have created a straw man - do you know what that is? nobody is saying eliminate research or progress - it is a simple idea that you seem to have trouble with. we disagree - I think it will be very difficult to create a world where renewable energy powers all our cars and our wasteful lifestyle. we will need massive amounts of steel and oil and water to build out that world and looks to me like we do not have the raw materials to do it. you seem to think that it can be done easily - time will tell but as I said it is a bad bet. I don't like bad bets - I try to make safe bets - mostly

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34934) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 months ago

[-] -2 points by flip (5207) 2 minutes ago

you're dreaming - I hope you are right but technology will not save us. all your answers need raw materials and we are running out. pie in the sky but lets wait and see - time will tell! prepare yourself.

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

{ EDIT } Flipper flipper flipper - such a pessimist.

Did you know that nothing is ever destroyed? is ever gone? is ever removed from this closed system called Earth ( well very little anyway as you will see below )? It's true - the only weight the earth ever loses - is - the weight of material that is sent into outer space as satellites and such things. Much of which ( most = near earth orbiting ) will eventually fall back to earth. No nothing gets totally destroyed/used - instead it gets converted - the thing is "to ReClaim It" - to recycle it - to reconvert it. An easy conversion is water to hydrogen back to water when the hydrogen is burned. Except for ( like I said ) the material that has been ejected out to space - the earth weighs the same as it did on day one ( ooops - except for the material that has fallen to earth from outside sources = asteroids comets cosmic dust adding to the overall - as we are almost but not quite a closed system - we as in earth ).

EDIT -> I guess it is a good thing that getting into space or landing on the moon or on Mars was not up to you to find a way to do it - as I guess that you would not have been able to dream/imagine such things to begin with.

[Removed]

[-] -3 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

going to the moon is fro children - while people here starve for no reason. right if it were up to me we would not be doing space exploration until all lived well here on earth. how you doing with that recycled gasoline - pulling the carbon atoms out of the air and reconstituting it? as I said I hope you are right but it is abad bet and I do not like bad bets - I am making the safe bet - see you in 20 years

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34934) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 months ago

[-] 0 points by flip (5207) 1 hour ago

yup - has very little to do with overcoming the problems I pointed out. how do you plan on generating the power to fill your batteries and when will they be in those tesla cars so I can drive more than 250 miles - and where do I charge up?? converting cars requires steel and energy and raw materials to say nothing of the power generation needs of the usa. can you deal with this question

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

{ EDIT } BTW - you must not have paid very much attention to the original comment that I posted ( https://occupywallst.org/forum/the-case-against-capitalism/#comment-1033105 ) = part of your reply "how do you plan on generating the power to fill your batteries and when will they be in those tesla cars so I can drive more than 250 miles - and where do I charge up??"

You were not paying attention ( or were in a hurry to give me crap ) or you just might have noted part of my proposition as submitted to Tesla = "2 -> I also asked if they had ever considered ( while their charging station network is still under development ) installing like a 50cc generator/inverter to run ( when needed ) while the vehicles are in operation to provide electricity to the motor and the battery for the purpose of recharging while in operation. The generator/inverter could use any type of fuel = gasoline or propane or methane or or or or eventually hydrogen(?) and would only ever need to run for short periods of time to recharge the main drive battery. So how long/far would a gallon of fuel to run the generator/inverter - last?"

EDIT -> How long would a gallon of fuel last in a 50cc generator/alternator/inverter? Straight running time? An hour? Longer? OK lets figure only an hour of "straight" time feeding electricity to the electric motor to drive on down the road - at 60 mph(?) - well then "that" would equal 160 miles. Now take that example = 1hour = 160 miles and add that to the batteries estimated 250 miles prior to needing a charge - That in itself would be 410 miles. What if the generator/alternator/inverter only had to run for 5 minutes every 20 minutes ( for a total combined time of 25 minutes driving time ) to keep the battery at full charge. How long would that gallon of fuel to run the generator/alternator/inverter Last? A Day? A Week? A Month? What? 1st I guess would be to wonder how many miles you average per day driving - the running time would be for the day only as you could plug in at home at the end of the day. Gonna be on the road for a week you say? Not in a charging station area? No Prob - you would just be making more use of your on board generator/alternator/inverter.

OH and before you say it. Why have charging stations at all? Well if a charging station is available - why buy fuel when you can take a charge for free?

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34934) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 months ago

[-] 0 points by flip (5207) 1 minute ago

yup - has very little to do with overcoming the problems I pointed out. how do you plan on generating the power to fill your batteries and when will they be in those tesla cars so I can drive more than 250 miles - and where do I charge up?? converting cars requires steel and energy and raw materials to say nothing of the power generation needs of the usa. can you deal with this question

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

Yes I can = "can you deal with this question" - but apparently you can't.

You fail to note the many different ways that I pointed out for generating electricity.

Materials? For the liquid metal battery it is as I said = dirt cheap for plentiful materials ( plentiful everywhere ) - materials that are not silver or steel.

What is done with old ( replaced equipment ) ? It is recycled = generally sold to foreign countries ( like Japan ) for recycling ( melted down and re-cast ). That is another material resource = reuse rather than mine new.

For power generation - Let me help you out if you can bend your mind around the concept = http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017146059

Ever hear of clean tech? http://t.co/TiKh0v2Jos

The thing is - there are many answers - good clean answers - to our needs. They just need implementation and continuous development.

Ever hear of nano? Want material? What kind of material? Put it together atom by atom.

Hmmmm carbon - what to do what tooooo dooooooo - carbon fiber? Carbon fiber Beams? Auto Body Parts? Hmmmmmm questions questions questions so many questions - if only there were answers. HEH.

[-] -2 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

you're dreaming - I hope you are right but technology will not save us. all your answers need raw materials and we are running out. pie in the sky but lets wait and see - time will tell! prepare yourself.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34934) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 months ago

did you read what I wrote?

Did you watch the video? The elements needed are practically dirt cheap - and this is for adding to the power generation system to add the ability to store wind or solar or thorium reactor or or or = "all" generated electricity - electricity ( power ) to be dispensed "on demand" - "as needed" day or night - for individual heating and cooling etc etc etc for household as well as for industrial/business use.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 2 months ago

v cool !! thx

[-] 0 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

yup - has very little to do with overcoming the problems I pointed out. how do you plan on generating the power to fill your batteries and when will they be in those tesla cars so I can drive more than 250 miles - and where do I charge up?? converting cars requires steel and energy and raw materials to say nothing of the power generation needs of the usa. can you deal with this question

[-] 0 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 2 months ago

but flip....

Solar Panels Drain the Sun’s Energy, Experts Say

This week, a scientific research facility in Wyoming made a startling discovery that is certain to change the way millions of Americans look at the environmentalism movement, after they found conclusive evidence that solar panels not only convert the sun’s energy into usable energy, but that they are also draining the sun of its own energy, possibly with catastrophic consequences far worse than global warming.

http://nationalreport.net/solar-panels-drain-suns-energy-experts-say/

hehehe

[-] -2 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

plenty of craziness out there! very interesting book on the subject -= from an investment advisor - "game over" pointing out all the difficulties to be overcome in converting to a more renewable future.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (34934) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 months ago

Yep - it's all about the oil - no matter what they say - it's all about the oil - Asshat of Syria knows that he is fortunate ( getting away with murder ) that he's not sitting on top of any oil or his goose would have been cooked likely in the 1st month of his murder/attack on his population.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (18130) 2 months ago

Unfortunately the matters of Oil, Syria and 'pipelines' - are not unconnected and I'd better leave that to this young lady, who is probably much closer to the truth here, than our Western Corporate MSM-BS and de facto 'State Media' - will ever tell us :

fiat lux et fiat pax ...

[-] 2 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

nice quote from albert - I like it! Buddha also, of course.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (18130) 2 months ago

Also by Albert Einstein - "Why Socialism" : http://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism .

multum in parvo ...

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 months ago

as the age of conquest still kills for that last bit of land resource

humans should be working for sustainability

[-] 1 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

that one I know of - also his essay on education is really good

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (18130) 2 months ago

a) "How Socialists Built America", by John Nichols : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27907.htm ;

b) "Why I Am a Socialist ?" by Chris Hedges : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21586.htm ;

c) "Nine Myths about Socialism in the US", by Bill Quigley : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25187.htm ;

d) "Marx's 'Das Kapital' Lives On in Capitalist Age" (Audio) : http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16697381 &

e) ''A Socialism for the 21st Century'', by Prof. Richard D. Wolff : http://truth-out.org/news/item/16797-a-socialism-for-the-21st-century .

Appended fyi here on this excellent forum-post. I must say that I twinkled your innocuous comment a little earlier but it is again 0 at the time of me typing this. I do not like how attritional and personalised voting has overtaken this forum or how votes are manipulated & also frozen for some posters - despite assertions being made that ''votes are important'' by some people around here. Forge On Regardless !

solidarity ...

[-] 0 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

wow - I don't usually look at points or vote - but now I see that my comment is at -2 - who the hell is against albert??

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (18130) 2 months ago

Right Wing Conservatives and Reactionaries !!!

I'll also append fyi .. http://www.leftforum.org/ !!

Keep On Keeping On For The 99%.Solidarity ! + :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SibgDQWU85g

pax ...

[-] 3 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 months ago

"Well, creating communes and co-ops is an important task that should be prioritized, but the argument above does not hold up. Again, the economy is all-encompassing. A couple of socialist-anarchist communes or co-ops here and there don’t change the fact that the super-wealthy financial elite have the overwhelming power in society. "

You make a good point however understand that capitalism wasn't created overnight either. It came in drips and drabs until it finally replaced feudalism. Have you ever heard of The Mondragón Cooperative Corporation? It is often considered the most successful example of worker-owned enterprise in the world.

I urge you to watch "Richard Wolff presents Democracy at Work: A Cure for Capitalism - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjWI6RuIy8E

Cheers :)

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

Hi:)

Sure, capitalism came gradually, like so many other things.

Yes, I'm very much aware of both the Mondragon Cooperatives and Richard Wolff.

For more on workplace democracy, please check out my two youtube channels:

http://www.youtube.com/user/WorkplaceDemocracy1

http://www.youtube.com/user/Andy80o

[-] 3 points by Nevada1 (4464) 2 months ago

Good Post. Incorporation, is a filthy thing.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

Private ownership of the means of production is a filthy thing.

[-] 2 points by nakedsex (94) 2 months ago

https://occupywallst.org/forum/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-democracy-but-/

I agree it's a filthy thing when people can exploit the world we all live in. But democracy doesn't work the way you're claiming and this is known to anyone who does the research. I really wish you'd consider the idea of balance because you could probably figure out some functional solutions instead of pushing this disguised anarchy that so easily fools people.

[-] -1 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 1 month ago

All Utopian ideals are sold this way. They seem to be based on the innate goodness of man. They assume that when reward is equal, then contribution will be equal as well. They fail to take into account the basic weaknesses of human nature. That given a chance people will sit back and wait for the other guy to do all the work then show up for their share. Academics don't seem to grasp the real world, I gave them a rock solid real world example of the production means that they meant to seize, and couldn't get one of them to man up enough to admit to it. When numbers become flesh and blood, things look a whole lot different.

[-] -1 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

Not if that ownership is spread out over the population. That is where the government failed us. The economy must be managed by the government for the good of ALL the people not just a few. The economic system doesn't matter, if it is managed for the good of a few. Taking back power is a critical step, and until that happens most other steps we take will just manage to be co-opted by the rich.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

When there's private ownership of the mop, some people have the right to control and dominate others. That's wrong. Individuals should be able to control their own work. Capitalism should therefore be dismantled.

[-] 2 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

So clarify your point for me again, the farm that I own has been in my family since Arkansas was a territory. It has been bought back from the bank numerous times, the most recent by me, so this isn't some inheritance, it's bought and paid for. So your intentions, since it is a farm and a means of production, are to take this farm from me? What would I do then, live on it still and work for the government. That's been tried once they called it feudalism. It makes no difference if the lord of the manner is an individual or a collective. Or would you take it from me, move me into a neat little apartment somewhere, and turn it into a commune? I'm curious as to your intentions. Would I still own my farm, or would you own it, or the government? And since your intentions are to use violence to take my farm ( https://occupywallst.org/forum/the-alternative-to-capitalism/ "Just to be clear, you are not advocating for using force or violence right?" Yes I am! The rich and powerful are not going to give away all their privileges voluntarily.They have to be taken from them. I have absolutely no problem with taking property away from people .... Which people, the rich, or the 50 year old farmer working an off farm job just to make ends meet?

If those are your intentions let me know, so that I can invest in an assault weapon.

[-] -1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

"So clarify your point for me again, the farm that I own has been in my family since Arkansas was a territory. It has been bought back from the bank numerous times, the most recent by me, so this isn't some inheritance, it's bought and paid for. So your intentions, since it is a farm and a means of production, are to take this farm from me?"

First of all, remember that I'm primarily talking about the employer/employee-relationship; in other words whne the means of production are being owned privately by some people (owners), while others (the workers) are using them to produce a surplus for the owner.

In a libertarian socialist society people would have a democratic say in things proportional to how much one is affected (pretty reasonable, right?)

So in other words, if what you're doing on this farm affects other people, if this farm is heavily involved in the local economy, well then the community should have some say in how things are organized. But if what you do with this farm don't affect the outside community in any significant way, then you'd be left more alone.

Remember also that I don't advocate state control over production, I advocate workers and communities controlling production (libertarian socialism/anarchism).

And also keep in mind that in a worker-run, classless society, there'd be a different kind of mindset if you will, in which people realize that they're better off when they base society on cooperation, mutual support and running things toghether.

"And since your intentions are to use violence"

A libertarian socialist society can only come when the people want it. The democratization of production should come preferably by democratic process and participation. If a small minority don't respect the will of the people and refuse to give up the right to exploit, then force will be necessary.

"Just to be clear, you are not advocating for using force or violence right?" Yes I am! The rich and powerful are not going to give away all their privileges voluntarily. They have to be taken from them. I have absolutely no problem with taking property away from people.. "

..who control and domiante others" (<-----you left that part out)

Sure. There will most certainly be some who refuse. They would be forced to give it up. There's nothing controversial about this. If a small group of fascists lets say, try to organize a coup d'etat or something like that in one of the western democracies, then democracy would be defended.

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 2 months ago

yeah well.... keep waving that "libertarian socialist society" flag ... you will never accomplish anything....

would it not be better to build the perfect co-op ... and if it works... people will copy it.... and use it... and that might change the world... but trying to force the people to adopt any system in one quick swoop ...is only doom to failure... and actually sounds kindda fascist itself ... no ?

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

I had thought the same thing. Look out west to the mini revolt, not over the seizure of private land, but over the use of public land. People are not going to buy in, at least not enough. So the only answer is forced, cooperation, and I'm pretty sure that most farmers being forced to cooperate would find creative ways to insure crop failures. So yes it would seem pretty fasciest wouldn't it.

[-] 0 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

You sorta skirted around my question, didn't you? Would I still own my farm? To clarify the farm is not a subsistence farm, I produce a for sale crop. I should market around 40000 pounds of tomatoes this year and if my expansion can continue around 250000 next year. So yes the community is effected. Under your system could they simply vote that instead of produce I plant food plots for deer so they could hunt them? Or maybe the community wants marijuana instead of tomatoes. Could they vote on that as well?

"If a small group of fascists lets say, try to organize a coup d'etat or something like that in one of the western democracies, then democracy would be defended." So you've ran into Harold Covington have you? His ideas seem pretty well based in fantasy as well. I'll not link to him, you can Google him if you like.

Look, I am not saying that libertarian socialism won't work, I am just saying that you can't end private ownership of property. You would have to work within the system, with cooperatives owning what they can purchase, as well as individuals.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

No, I answered you.I'm not going to sketch out every single detail as to how your community should be organized. How everything would/should be organized would depend on a lot of factors.

Maybe if you read my response one more time, it'll make more sense.

Private ownership of the means of production should be abolished and replaced by a participatory democracy in which people control their own work. Many things should be done in order to achieve this, for example by building co-ops.

Capitalism should eventually be abolished. I explained why in the forum post.

[-] 1 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

So you are suggesting public ownership of say a company like Wal-Mart? Not government ownership, but public ownership. You do realize that you just described a corporation right. If you work at Wal-Mart, and purchased one share of stock then as an employee you are also part owner. Do you see where I am going with this, under your system you would have no more chance of voting yourself a raise than if you owned one share of stock in the company you worked for.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

“So you are suggesting public ownership of say a company like Wal-Mart? Not government ownership, but public ownership.”

Yes.

“You do realize that you just described a corporation right.”

No, I didn’t.

“If you work at Wal-Mart, and purchased one share of stock then as an employee you are also part owner.”

I’m talking about workers and communities owning and controlling the institutions in society democratically.

[-] 0 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

What your describing is a corporation owned by it's employees. I know that isn't what you see it as, but that is the fact plain and simple. Each employee owns a share and gets a vote in what goes on. Jack is more popular than Jill, his ideas get voted in. And where does the initial investment come from? Until this thing is worked out in detail, it is nothing more than fantasy, the question I ask are question that would determine not only the support for such a system, but whether that system worked at all.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 month ago

A co-op does not have the structure of a corporation.They're two different things.

"And where does the initial investment come from?"

Groups of workers, neighborhoods, communities and so on. Many businesses have been created and run successfully this way.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 month ago

"And where does the initial investment come from?"

the plants gather energy from the sun

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 month ago

And co-ops produce things that gather energy from the sun :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dm114sD4I8

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 2 months ago

well ... to be fair... I think S4 is suggesting that all workers (employees) automatically will own equal share without having to pay for it ... they will have equal share simply because they are the workers....

I do like the idea....;)

but ... in reality ... who would pay for the initial investment ? ...

that IS a good question ... ;)

am I missing something ?

[-] 0 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

Like every great communist revolution, they don't intend to need an initial investment. They intend to seize the businesses and farms and factories, thereby eliminating the need for an initial investment.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 2 months ago

to be honest... don't get me wrong.... I'm all for a shared publicly owned economy.... as well as privately owned economy working together ....however my gut instinct... tells me that this libertarian spin... was started by big business trying to get the people to lesson the governmental controls...

[-] 1 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

"however my gut instinct... tells me that this libertarian spin... was stated by big business trying to get the people to lesson the governmental controls..." It seem to lean that way doesn't it? With the obvious similarities between this concept and the concept of a publicly held corporations I have to wonder if laws intended to benefit the coops wouldn't also benefit the corporations. It will be very hard to distinguish the two from a legal standpoint.

[-] 0 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

We are in serious danger of running out of indents. I agree completely, There is room for both. I have absolutely no problem with employee owned businesses. I have a problem with suggestions of using violence to eliminate all private ownership. It's one thing to suggest that publicly held corporations be torn down, or phased out, or phased into employee owned corporations, another thing entirely to suggest that privately owned businesses be taken from their owners.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 2 months ago

hehe... whether noble or not ... I think that might be a bit difficult to do ...

[-] 0 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

not sure why you having so much trouble with this - first of all in any real society that struggle4 is imagining there would be no Wal-Mart. small hardware stores and shops - and farms could be privately owned and operated. not sure where your farm would fit in but who cares - it is silly to try to work out details since we are so far away from this - "we build the road as we travel" - lastly I would like to know - who did your ancestors by the farm from - the Indians? stolen land as is all of the Americas - no? capitalism is a bad system - it can be reformed and downsized and integrated into a mixed economy. I have worked for myself for 45 years - small business. we have started a larger business recently and so far doing good work - hiring people and paying them fairly - it is possible to keep some of that innovative system. but capitalism - private ownership of everything - private control of the most basic elements of life is insane. I have not read all of this back and forth - it is too painful but as I said I do not get why you are having trouble grasping the basic point here.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 2 months ago

flip.... quote: "....it is silly to try to work out details since we are so far away from this ..."

that is why we are so far away .... lack of details .... w/o the details it's all a pipe dream that no one fully understands ... no ?

[-] 0 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

It is far easier to sell the sizzle, than it is to sell the steak. Folks are trying to sell the noble sounding concept without selling the substance of the plan. The truly sad thing is that thousands will buy into it not knowing anything at all about how it might really work. These guys are starting to sound like car salesmen. Trying to sell the flashy new car without giving any details about it. We haven't even discussed price yet, and they want people to sign on.

[-] 0 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 month ago

quote : How does investment capitalism work, it creates value out of thin air. Not possible. Production capitalism places value production and bases the rest of the economy on that initial production.

well investment capitalism does create value in the banking world... that's why it exisits ...

and a far as Production capitalism ... imo... we are entering an age where it doesn't take everyone to produce all the production we need... in fact in 50 yrs it likely won't take anyone ... it will be automated

[-] 0 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 1 month ago

I remember some sci-fi movies that started like that. Humanity wet nursed by a bunch of machines. Is that really the future you look forward to?

[-] 0 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

no! that is not why we are far away - no need to continue this dialogue but write the manifesto if you like - look into your crystal ball and figure out your big system - it is all largely a waste of time since events will intervene that you cannot foresee or control. broad outlines - maybe - but we need to put one foot in front of the other and move in a better direction

[-] 0 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 2 months ago

"...maybe - but we need to put one foot in front of the other and move in a better direction..."

I completely agree....

I studied math... and I am pretty poor at english....

so I try to look at things completely mathematically ...

what are the roots ? .... what are the simplest factors ?

how do we define a system that provides everything everyone (except the 1%) want ?....

well ... imo... first we need to understand what people have strived for .... what are the ideals... etc...

and attempt to detail every aspect ... and then re-detail them until it is homogeneous ...

who knows... we might just end up with something that is far more advanced and beneficial than anything anyone has conceived to date...

and while we are doing this... we must also realize that the industrial age is retiring.... the demand for labor type of jobs will continue to diminish as time moves on....

I believe we are entering a new age... an age of Social Revolution" and "Social Production" ... and that deserves new economic systems with new thinking... not those based on labored production... who wants to labor anyway ;)

but that is just my belief

[-] 0 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

I hope you are right - Chomsky says the center cannot hold. we are for sure entering a phase of resource scarcity - where all the raw materials that our society is built upon are getting harder and harder to come by - production for use and not for profit is a start

[-] 0 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

I need to know if their is a cliff in that direction before I follow anyone over it. I am not one for blindly supporting a system that I can't understand.

[-] 0 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

mankind is many things and the system of capitalism supports and promotes greedy and lazy people - those at the top. ww2 ended the depression not your steagal amendment. resources are no longer cheap or easy to get - times have changed

[-] 0 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 1 month ago

You talk about a fair wage, The Steagal amendment insured a fair wage for the first level of the economy, the production or raw materials level. It assured that farmers were paid fairly for their product as were miners. So socialism doesn't promote lazy people? Everyone gets an equal share and is supposed to contribute equally, hows that work. Unless you round everybody up and send them to gulags.

[-] -1 points by flip (5410) 1 month ago

so say it - ww2 ended the depression and what is wrong with being lazy - we all (well maybe not you) work too hard. not enough time with family and friends - I am not a fan of the puritan ethic

[-] -1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 2 months ago

quote:... " You assume that I support investment capitalism while in fact I support production capitalism. "

this is interesting.... my immediate take on this.... is whereas... "production capitalism" ... of the early and mid 1900's was extremely needed...

in todays world ... it has morphed into some of our biggest problems.... polution and development of trash.... the strive for continued production... moves us to design product failure into our products in attempt to expand market... and in return we also unnecessarily waste of resources....

I also see "investment capitalism" as a move to try to move away from simple production.... personally I don't see whats wrong with it ...as long as it doesn't steal and/or unfairly manipulate the game....

and as a result it creates economic activity by basically producing nothing at all ... except the moving of money...

am I missing something ?

[-] 0 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 1 month ago

You eat? Production is also agriculture. I guess you just absorb solar rays instead of eat. Sell your abstract ideals to someone else. You study physics in college? How does investment capitalism work, it creates value out of thin air. Not possible. Production capitalism places value production and bases the rest of the economy on that initial production.

[-] -2 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

the cliff that modern capitalism is driving us towards is just up the road - can't you see it. first we have to turn around and head away from that cliff - then we can see exactly in which direction we want to go. I give you max neef - much more if you are interested - AMY GOODMAN: So, to avoid another catastrophe, collision, if you were in charge, what would you say has to happen?

MANFRED MAX-NEEF: First of all, we need cultured economists again, who know the history, where they come from, how the ideas originated, who did what, and so on and so on; second, an economics now that understands itself very clearly as a subsystem of a larger system that is finite, the biosphere, hence economic growth as an impossibility; and third, a system that understands that it cannot function without the seriousness of ecosystems. And economists know nothing about ecosystems. They don’t know nothing about thermodynamics, you know, nothing about biodiversity or anything. I mean, they are totally ignorant in that respect. And I don’t see what harm it would do, you know, to an economist to know that if the bees would disappear, he would disappear as well, because there wouldn’t be food anymore. But he doesn’t know that, you know, that we depend absolutely from nature. But for these economists we have, nature is a subsystem of the economy. I mean, it’s absolutely crazy.

And then, in addition, you know, bring consumption closer to production. I live in the south of Chile, in the deep south. And that area is a fantastic area, you know, in milk products and what have you. Top. Technologically, like the maximum, you know? I was, a few months ago, in a hotel, and there in the south, for breakfast, and there are these little butter things, you know? I get one, and it’s butter from New Zealand. I mean, if that isn’t crazy, you know? And why? Because economists don’t know how to calculate really costs, you know? To bring butter from 20,000 kilometers to a place where you make the best butter, under the argument that it was cheaper, is a colossal stupidity, because they don’t take into consideration what is the impact of 20,000 kilometers of transport? What is the impact on the environment of that transportation, you know, and all those things? And in addition, I mean, it’s cheaper because it’s subsidized. So it’s clearly a case in which the prices never tell the truth. It’s all tricks, you know? And those tricks do colossal harms. And if you bring consumption closer to production, you will eat better, you will have better food, you know, and everything. You will know where it comes from. You may even know the person who produces it. You humanize this thing, you know? But the way the economists practice today is totally dehumanized.

AMY GOODMAN: And if you’re teaching young economists, the principles you would teach them, what they’d be?

MANFRED MAX-NEEF: The principles, you know, of an economics which should be are based in five postulates and one fundamental value principle.

One, the economy is to serve the people and not the people to serve the economy.

Two, development is about people and not about objects.

Three, growth is not the same as development, and development does not necessarily require growth.

Four, no economy is possible in the absence of ecosystem services.

Five, the economy is a subsystem of a larger finite system, the biosphere, hence permanent growth is impossible.

And the fundamental value to sustain a new economy should be that no economic interest, under no circumstance, can be above the reverence of life.

AMY GOODMAN: Go back to three: growth and development. Explain that further.

MANFRED MAX-NEEF: Growth is a quantitative accumulation. Development is the liberation of creative possibilities. Every living system in nature grows up to a certain point and stops growing. You are not growing anymore, nor he nor me. But we continue developing ourselves. Otherwise we wouldn’t be dialoguing here now. So development has no limits. Growth has limits. And that is a very big thing, you know, that economists and politicians don’t understand. They are obsessed with the fetish of economic growth.

And I am working, several decades. Many studies have been done. I’m the author of a famous hypothesis, the threshold hypothesis, which says that in every society there is a period in which economic growth, conventionally understood or no, brings about an improvement of the quality of life. But only up to a point, the threshold point, beyond which, if there is more growth, quality of life begins to decline. And that is the situation in which we are now.

I mean, your country is the most dramatic example that you can find. I have gone as far as saying — and this is a chapter of a book of mine that is published next month in England, the title of which is Economics Unmasked. There is a chapter called "The United States, an Underdeveloping Nation," which is a new category. We have developed, underdeveloped and developing. Now you have underdeveloping. And your country is an example, in which the one percent of the Americans, you know, are doing better and better and better, and the 99 percent is going down, in all sorts of manifestations. People living in their cars now and sleeping in their cars, you know, parked in front of the house that used to be their house — thousands of people. Millions of people, you know, have lost everything. But the speculators that brought about the whole mess, oh, they are fantastically well off. No problem. No problem.

[-] 0 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

You assume that I support investment capitalism while in fact I support production capitalism. The Steagal amendment that ended the great depression was based on a raw materials economic model. It worked until the rich ended it. You support a system of fantasy that has never worked, and never can as long as man kind is greedy and lazy.

[-] 0 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

I'm having trouble with this because what your suggesting can't work. It relies on people not doing what people always do, taking the easy way out. It's a butterflies and unicorns ideal that might exist on a tiny scale somewhere, but could never work on a national level. The details I am asking about are details that I feel strongly about, they would be the factors that determine my support. Personally I already know the answers, one only need look at the Russian revolution, or Mao's holy war in south east Asia. You'll pave the road to your imaginary utopia with the blood of hard working people who were not willing to give you what they have worked all their lives for, and I'll stand with them.

Stolen land? read some Arkansas history, their were no Indians in this particular part of the state, vacant land.

[-] -3 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

well first of all I am sure you will forgive me if I do not take your word for this - no Indians in this particular part of the state, vacant land. - secondly it is pretty obvious that nobody can work out the details of what a society might look like in the future - that is a childish notion. not sure at all what you mean by what I am suggesting cannot work - of course it can. you are off base to equate mao and the Russians with socialism or anything I am advocating - time to read some real history of that era - here is paul street - Soviet “Socialism”

The legend had little to do with reality. Whatever the claims of its ruling elite, the Soviet Union was not remotely socialist in the authentic sense of the word: workers’ control and popular democracy for the common good. Soviet Russia was an authoritarian state-capitalist and bureaucratic despotism that had little to do with Karl Marx and other 19th century leftists’ dream of capitalist class society being replaced by “an association, in which the free development of each is the conditions for the free development of all” – a “true realm of freedom” beyond endless toil and necessity and “worthy of [homo sapiens’] “human nature..”As US Marxist economist Richard Wolff notes, early Soviet non-capitalist experiments in which workers were “both the producers and the appropriators of surpluses” were quickly “abandoned under multiple pressures.” Further:

“Soviet socialism – and increasingly socialism in general – came to be redefined in terms of what actually existed inside Soviet industrial enterprises. There, hired workers produced surpluses that were appropriated and distributed by others: the council of ministers, state officials who functioned as employers. The Soviet Union was actually an example of state capitalism in its class structure….by describing itself as…socialist, it prompted the definition of socialism to mean state capitalism.”

Along the way, the Soviet Union quickly descended into a top-down political tyranny whose harsh dictatorial reality – replete with dungeons and mass political executions – was far removed from genuine socialism’s democratic, grassroots, and popular-participatory ideals.

US “Democracy”

The United States, for its part, was no democracy during the official Cold War period (1947 to 1991). It was a state-capitalist corporate plutocracy managed by and for a revolving door “power elite” comprised of big business executives, military officials and political elites both elected and unelected. Representatives of the majority working class populace and civil society were granted a distinctly secondary role in the making of policy and the shaping of political and popular opinion. As the great American philosopher John Dewey observed in 1931, US politics and policy were little more than “the shadow cast on society by big business.” He rightly predicted things would stay that way as long as “business for private profit” controlled the nation’s means of finance, production, and communication – a forecast that proved accurate through the Cold War era and to the present day.

It might seem at first that Dewey spoke too soon. Between the 1930s and the 1970s, a significant reduction in overall economic inequality (though not of racial inequality) and an increase in the standard of living of millions of working class Americans occurred in the United States. This “Great Compression” occurred thanks to the rise and expansion of the industrial workers’ movement (sparked to no small extent by Communists and other radical left militants), the spread of collective bargaining, the rise of a relatively pro-union New Deal welfare state (on whose left margins Sinclair would push during the 1930s), and the democratic domestic pressures of World War II and subsequent powerful social movements. Still, core capitalist prerogatives and assets – Dewey’s “private control” and “business for profit” – were never dislodged, consistent with New Deal champion Franklin Roosevelt’s boast that he had “saved the profits system” from radical change. The gains enjoyed by ordinary working Americans were made possible to no small extent by the uniquely favored and powerful position of the United States economy (and empire) and the remarkable profit rates enjoyed by U.S. corporations in the post-WWII world.

When that position and those profits were significantly challenged by resurgent Western European and Japanese economic competition in the 1970s and 1980s, the comparatively egalitarian trends of postwar America were reversed by the capitalist elites who had never lost their critical command of the nation’s core economic and political institutions. Working class Americans have paid the price ever since. For the last four decades, US wealth and income have been sharply concentrated upward, returning to pre-Great Depression levels, marking a New or Second Gilded Age that is directly traceable to a number of regressive and plutocratic policies that have nothing to do with any shift right in the populace and in fact run contrary to majority progressive opinion that has little real influence on the making of US policy domestic or foreign.

The US before, during, and since the Cold War proper has shown little resemblance to a nation under genuine populace governance. Its ruling class has been no more eager to see real democracy and popular sovereignty – the ultimate nightmare of the nation’s late 18th century Founders, truth be told – break out in the US (or anywhere else) than the Soviet elite was interested in granting power to ordinary workers and citizens in Russia.

[-] 0 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

"well first of all I am sure you will forgive me if I do not take your word for this - no Indians in this particular part of the state, vacant land." And if their were, and we took their land why is that any different than what you are suggesting. It seems to me like a majority taking from a minority. It's claimed that that sort of thing wouldn't happen under your system, but I believe that unless you create a new sort of human it not only will happen, but it will be the norm rather than the exception.

[-] 0 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

I made no comparison of your socialist system to Russian or southeast Asian socialism. I made the comparison of your road to achieving it. A blood soaked revolution, that might actually start out seizing ill gotten gains from people who really deserved it, but would end up taking most if not all private property by force. It is strange how you can put so much faith in human nature, after blaming human nature for the corruption of our current government.

[-] 0 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

I have not blamed human nature for anything. I have my own business - I invested savings in it and worked it. I understand that I do not want someone to take it from me but you have gotten lost here. we are talking about exxon and Wal-Mart - maybe your farm but doubtful

[-] -1 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

And that is where every communist revolution has fallen. They didn't know where to stop. No The working class in America will never support Occupy. That is abundantly clear. The government is doing it's damnedest to take what little we have, and the so called solution is doing the same. The only thing I have to say at this point is battle lines are being drawn in this country, and anyone who's intention it is to take, by force or coercion, my property is my enemy. You want your revolution, come and get it.

[-] -1 points by flip (5410) 2 months ago

oh, grow up. you embarrass yourself. you rant like a little boy - about revolution and commies. the working class already supports occupy - your property ha - stolen land

[-] 0 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 1 month ago

Bull sht. They did for about a month until the socialist propaganda hit the media. You can focus on getting the wealthy elite out of power or you can try and build a fantasy world where everybody contributes equally just because they can. As for you buddy take me to court to get back my '' ha stolen land', or better yet why don't you put your money where your mouth is and come and take it yourself. I'll be waiting. Unlike you, I am not an academic discussing abstract ideals, I am looking for a solution that works in the real world not just on paper.

[-] 1 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

Well, I'm still waiting for a response. I have given a real world instance and ask you specific question concerning it. Perhaps you would like to explain how I have exploited anyone, since I don't employ anyone. Or how the price I'm paid for produce hasn't gone up in 10 years but the end consumer price has. In your world, does everyone do the job that they want to do? Or does the collective assign jobs, because if not I think you would find that no one grew food, or collected garbage, or repaired the sewer system, or built roads, or dug ditches, and everyone designed video games. Who does the nasty sweaty laborious boring jobs in a Utopian society where everyone does what they want?

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 2 months ago

Yeah.... I got that same question ;) ....

the only answer is to unite all the goals of all idealistic systems into one ...

but I guess that's too democratic ....

[-] 1 points by wickerman (59) from Cleveland, AR 2 months ago

I couldn't agree more.

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 2 months ago

"...Capitalism is an action of trade which supports the individuals to agree to the value of the trade..."

"...Communism is the theory that all the people equally share all the resources & responsibilities..."

"...Socialism is the action of applying controls to an free-market system in the effort to share the wealth...as well as applying incentives to an common-market system in the effort to boost productivity..."

"...The Free-market system is a reality... like air & water... it will exist regardless of whether it's legal or not... people will freely trade among each other regardless of governing structure..."

"...The Common-market system is a reality... like air & water... it will exist regardless of whether it's legal or not... people will continue to attempt share the wealth regardless of governing structure..."

maybe Realism ... is what we really want ....

The Evils of Capitalism & Communism

As long as people are welling to do evil things in the effort to gain monetary profit and unnecessary power... The ungoverned use of Capitalism and non shared use of Communism... will continue to create wars... impoverish people... pollute the world & waste resources...

The Good of Capitalism & Communism

The incentives of individual driven Capitalism has provided invention.. discovery ... research and economic prosperity for the world that no governing body could begin to accomplish... The compassion and altruistic goals of Communism keeps us in check and had provided economic prosperity for many nations whose populations have outgrown their resources....

Would it not be better to see what is real ... what is truthful ... and to develop upon the good of all ...than to destroy that good in the effort to destroy the evil ?.....

Would it not be better to combine all the idealistic goals of all the systems into one.... working simultaneous in common effort ?....

All we need to do is invent an "additional" currency ... one based not on monetary profit... but on social profit... that allows and promotes the free-market incentives towards the development of social wealth .... a social capital that allows us to be part of the economic world doing non-monetary profiting things ...

Many State owned banks are already moving this direction ... financing for the common good... Let's organize it into an actual new currency ... so it is not based on simple monetary gain ....

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

Patience, dude. Lots of responses today. Answer coming up soon :)

edit:answer has been posted.

[-] 2 points by newageoftruth (4) 2 months ago

Question for you. Do you think that capitalism is a problem isolated only in the US or other countries suffer from the same socioeconomic dangers such corrupt laws and gov't that favors big business over public majority

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

The global economy has become more and more based on capitalist principles. Ayn Rand-admirers such as Alan Greenspan and others have, along with their pro-corporate friends in the political system, privatized and deregulated the economy for several decades now. Neoliberalism has shuffled more and more wealth into the hands of private enterprise.

Now, we don't have unregulated capitalism, states regulate and tax these powerful private institutions. This is done in various degrees; the U.S. has some regulations, the Scandinavian countries have a little more regulations, and so on.

You're quite right that corporations and politicians are tightly linked, but what's happened is that the corporations have used their increasing power and wealth to make sure that politicians give them what they want: tax cuts for them and welfare cuts for the rest. So the corporations have--often with great success--used a lot of their wealth and resources to try to make sure that the ones who win the elections are the ones who advocate the things they want: more cash for themseves--cash they use to get even more political influence. A vicious cycle, in other words.

My post wasn't just a critique of the capitalist elements in our current world, though, it was also a critique of the ones who want more of it: the right-libertarians--the ancaps and the Ron Paul-fanatics.

Question for you: what did you think about the forum post?

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[-] 5 points by chatsworth (12) 2 months ago

It was the "capitalist heart" that got us involved in most of our wars, and it is the "capitalist's heart" that has bought our politicians who have aided in setting up a rigged system.

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

"It was the capitalist heart that fired the first shot that lead to Americas great Revolution. It was the capitalist heart that spit fired the Arab Spring when a lone capitalist set himself a blaze in protest to his over bearing Government."

How so? I assume you're aware that being opposed to government tyranny and state power dont automatically mean you support capitalism.

"not exactly sure if the Arab Government is Tyrannical though."

Could you elaborate on this one as well?

"Perhaps it is the Capitalist heart that is strongest of all. A heart that does not yield."

Yeah, you've got to give it to them, capitalists and supporters of capitalism are often very eager and enthusiastic about their abhorrent ideology. The Koch Brothers and others do what they can to put Ayn Rand-admiring libe(R)tarians into power, so that they can get what they want: tax cuts for themselves and welfare cuts for everybody else. The financial elite have eagerly and effectively managed to delude many people into this "anti-politics" mentality. Thru the CATO institute and other similar think-tanks the financial elite do what they can to make ordinary people buy into this; that way libe(R)tarians like Rand Paul and others can gain political power and carry on with their agenda: shuffling even more cash into the pockets of the wealthy.

[-] -1 points by Joemama2014 (-2) from Brooklyn, NY 2 months ago

An example of libertarian, We know seat belt saves lives so why do we need government to pass a law making us wear them.Freedom of choice is what America is all about.

[-] 5 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

I actually agree with you on this one. If you want to take the risk of driving without a seatbelt on, then that should be up to you. However, as I mentioned in the post, when it comes to the economy, then that's very different.

[-] -1 points by Joemama2014 (-2) from Brooklyn, NY 2 months ago

Eu Bankers=Fed Reserve=Jp morgan=Koch (repub) and Soros (dems)=American citizens duped.

Join the Operation American Spring.Time to take back this country.

And you are wrong about libertarians we do not want any government in our domestic lives.Nor do we want corporate lobbyists legal.Your social issues are between you and your family.I could care less if you marry your hairbrush.FAIR TAX FOR ALL ,OPERATION AMERICAN SPRING

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

Which part of the text I posted do you disagree with? Do you agree that people should have a say in the things that affect their lives?

Fair Tax for all? Absolutely! And a fair tax system should be a progressive tax system; a system where the wealthy and the big corporations pay much more taxes. In fact, they shouldn't just be taxed more, they should be totally stripped from their power. Capitalism is illegitimate; it should be replaced by a system based on workers' self management.

Right-libertarianism is focusing on the wrong issues; it's a just a call for corporate tyranny

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[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

Yeah, that's more or less accurate. But you see, I don't want systems of concentrated power. And I certainly don't want these power systems to maim and kill people..

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 months ago

can't claim land without it

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

Short, but clever -- as always. I like it.

You're quite right. If you look at history, property and land has, thru violence and wars, been stolen and shifted hands time and time again

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[-] 5 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 months ago

"The Mighty hand of Capitalism has brought wealth to many nations."

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Could you elaborate? What do you mean by "capitalism"? State-regulated Capitalism has for the last decades brought enormous wealth primarily to a small elite in lots of different nations, while leaving lots of others in extreme poverty. By now the 85 richest persons own the same as half of the world's population. What's good about that?

"Capitalism has brought jobs to the poorest reaches of the planet."

Slavery created jobs as well. Is that an argument for slavery?

"The leaders of Capitalism are proven "Successful", why should we not let their proven ability to lead supersede that of an unsuccessful mob of voters (as I know you are a strong advocate of democracy.)"

Many considered Stalin to be a great leader. There was enormous economic growth under Stalin; he pretty much industrialized Russia. Is that an argument for Stalinism? Of course not. Tyrannical hierarchies are unacceptable no matter what kind of system it is.

Yes, I advocate democracy, but a democracy controlled from below: anarcho-syndicalism.

"Capitalism protects its investments, thus protecting its workers"

Slave owners often took care of their slaves. They protected their investment...is that an argument for slavery?