Forum Post: Survey and Discussion: Libertarian Socialism or Social Democracy. What do you like best?
Posted 12 years ago on March 2, 2012, 10:42 a.m. EST by struggleforfreedom80
(6584)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I want to try something.
Below you´ll find two threads saying "Libertarian Socialism", and one saying "Social Democracy"
Please press "like" on what you think should be our end goal, what we should strive for (but not "dislike" on the one you don´t like)
And please contribute with criticism / admiration for the different systems (threads)
Totalitarian Dictatorship
Awfully understated.
No, I have to disagree with you on that one.
Understated because DS can't figure out how to make the text bold.
what democratic common sense?
huh?
Libertarian Socialism
When you say "libertarian" that scares me. I don't really like anything about libertarianism. Total freedom is barbaric. Very scary. Cannot like.
"Libertarian" in "Libertarian Socialism" means real freedom: the freedom to live in a classless society without undemocratic hierarchies and concentration of power. The usage of that word goes far back in history, long before ultra-capitalists started using it: Wikipedia:
"The first anarchist journal to use the term “libertarian” was La Libertaire, Journal du Mouvement Social, published in New York City between 1858 and 1861 by French anarcho-communist Joseph Déjacque. "The next recorded use of the term was in Europe, when “libertarian communism” was used at a French regional anarchist Congress at Le Havre (16-22 November, 1880). January the following year saw a French manifesto issued on “Libertarian or Anarchist Communism.” Finally, 1895 saw leading anarchists Sébastien Faure and Louise Michel publish La Libertaire in France." The word stems from the French word libertaire, and was used to evade the French ban on anarchist publications. In this tradition, the term "libertarianism" in "libertarian socialism" is generally used as a synonym for anarchism, which some say is the original meaning of the term; hence "libertarian socialism" is equivalent to "socialist anarchism" to these scholars.[46] In the context of the European socialist movement, libertarian has conventionally been used to describe those who opposed state socialism, such as Mikhail Bakunin."
Why does it have to be either? How about Democratic Common Sense. When you identify yourself with a particular political faction you are already beginning the process of isolation and polarization.
We don't need multiple options just a system of Government that acts in the best interests of all its citizens.
"We don't need multiple options just a system of Government that acts in the best interests of all its citizens."
Sure, at first. But what should our end goal be? In my opinion: Libertarian Socialism: http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-must-be-replaced-by-real-democracy-libe/
People are preconditioned to feel threatened by anything that begins with Libertarian or ends with ism. Perhaps with another 1000 years of human development we can call it that. In the interim we need to make up friendly sounding, patriotic themed names. How about the Peoples Republic of America, that should go down well.
"Democratic Common Sense"? to me thats libertarian socialism :)
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-must-be-replaced-by-real-democracy-libe/
Social Democracy
When you say "democracy" that scares me. Makes me think of direct democracy. Very scary. Cannot like.
I don't like giving people choices either, it sounds scary :-(
Choice doesn't scare me. Insane crazy people scare me. There's alot of those. Maybe you're one.
Is Is there a special reason you called me "insane crazy" instead of "insane" or "crazy"? You know they both mean the same thing, right?
"Social Democracy" is a specific system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
It does not have much to do with direct democracy, just relax :) It´s libertarian socialism that focuses on DD.
How is this different than what the US has today. The contemporary description sounds very similar to what we already have. Just that organized labor is not as strong a force as it used to be. And Keynsian theory is applied sporadically, rather than 100%.
US is not considered SD. It has much more private enterprise etc than whats called SD
I like private enterprise, with a few dashes of socialism thrown in there. Which is what we have now. I really wouldn't change that. I would like a more progressively fair tax system to adjust for the wealth concentration, which I think would reduce the amount of social programs necessary. So basically I would keep what we have now, with the goal of reducing socialist style programs. Not increasing them.
But if I had to choose one of your ideas - I would definately choose SD over LS. Do you want me to upvote SD for purposes of your poll? I'm not saying I want this, only that it's better than LS.
Personally I like democracy better (libertarian socialism): http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-must-be-replaced-by-real-democracy-libe/
:)
oh sigh. I would expect nothing less from you struggle. You're still my favorite anarchist on the forum. And if anyone could ever change my mind, it would be you. : )
Hehe:) Thanks for those kind words, April :) Hopefully you ll soon realize that having a democratic say in the things you´re a part of and which affect you is a reasonable suggestion.
Oh it's a reasonable suggestion. And I do want a degree of say in the things I'm a part of. I just don't want stupid people and the crazy whacko nutballs having a say so too. Among other things, that's what scares me. And if Occupy has done anything, it has only confirmed and reinforced my thoughts against direct democracy. Because there are WAY too many crazy whacko nutballs out there. I'll take my chances with my elected officials. Who I can assess their credentials at least. For the most part, they aren't insane crazy people.
Again, popular opinion can be changed (including the crazy ones). And also, if we start building a more solidaric cooperative society it wil of course "produce" more solidaric cooperative individuals. The crazies are by and large a product of the cynical greedy society.
You say the suggestion is in fact is a reasonable, yet you only want people to have "a degree" of say in their affairs...hmm. Notr good enough for my standards, at least.