Forum Post: Should we co-opt OWS and turn it into a political protest with candidates wearing name tags?
Posted 11 years ago on May 24, 2012, 3:17 p.m. EST by llllIlllllllllllllllllllllllll
(-44)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Many forum users point to the fact that the majority of OWS protesters are not anarchists and do not want a revolution. This is indeed true. These users, often branded as co-opters by the more fundamental anarchists, want OWS to make demands, and groom candidates that wear name tags to run for office. In a nutshell, they want a protest which is diametrically opposed to what OWS is now.
Should OWS become political and drop anarchism? Your thoughts?
Personally, I think OWS would implode if it started to play into politics. I believe its strength resides in the fact that it does not make demands, which means demands cannot be met thereby killing OWS. It's an unsatisfiable monster that's always there. It won't budge.
Now, I don't think OWS will be the group to create real change. I don't think they can create a revolution and replace the current government with anarcho-syndicalism. However, I do believe they are wonderful at creating pressure, a pressure that is very important in the equation towards a better world.
Another group, one which is political, will come in to make changes.
Stop thinking in group-think.
You start doing exactly what you just proposed. Start finding candidates that are sympathetic to your platform and help them get elected. Do this as an individual, with some friends, as a group, what ever.
Just do it! Stop looking for someone else to validate your mission.
Bravo! The best thing the 99% can do is support the protesters by re-taking the political system for the people, and given the power we're up against this is probably the ONLY way to achieve our ends.
Do I like that? No
Do I wish Americans were more educated and politically active? Yes.
But the fact is we have to deal with what is, not what we wish things were.
And here I thought OWS was about the fraud on Wall Street and how the big banks and the federal reserve manipulate our government.
Occupy is the straw that stirs the drink.Put want you want in the glass.
Thraymaque, if you have dropped your use of bots and/or sock puppets and are willing to let your ideas stand the test of a fair playing field, I applaud you for it.
I haven't used bots in more than 3 months (the recent attacks were not me), and the only reason I ever used sock puppets was because I was banned and needed a new username. You'll note that I never tried to hide behind a sock puppet. I always clearly stated who I was, and I always tried to use sock puppets that were related to each other, for example, JoeWinters, ClaraSprings, SaraSummers RandyAutumn, etc...
In any case, I still get banned, but I have figured out a way to create sock puppets that are seemingly the same. I use a combination of 30 l's and/or capital i's. There are millions of combinations that will give me the same username when viewed. So, if you see another type of username, it's not me.
I'll be honest. I do hope users create sock puppets of this l/capital i combination making hard to tell who is who. The reason I hope for this is because I truly believe only the arguments should count. There are too many people on this site who call others trolls just because they disagree or have another political association. If everyone had the same username, or no username (and no karma points), then comments would stand on their own two feet and users would be obliged to attack the arguments and not the proposer.
We are all to blame. How many times do you see someone's name and instantly click stinkle or call him a troll without really reading is argument. We all do it. It happens all the time on this forum. Because of this, it's impossible to discuss anything seriously and the forum has become all but useless. In any case, this forum doesn't represent OWS and I know that. Most people here have never been to a GA, and whatever is posted here has no weight in the OWS decision making process. Just comments in the wind.
Well, I'm glad you are going to simply post now like everyone else, and let opinion fall where it may.
The comments on this forum are not just comments in the wind, and this movement's bigger than the GAs. In fact OWS is now merely a part of a much larger movement for social justice, and that is not a bad thing, it's a good thing - it's called the framework for success.
I believe this site does not have much importance, and that is why members like jart and the people involved with this site, the few anarchic moderators, never bother to post here. The only part that the anarchic bother with is the news section which is actually published on some other sites as well.
The people at the helm of this movement use reedit and the NYCGA forums. If you really want to affect change at the base of OWS operations, you'll have to move your discussion on those channels. They're actually quite interesting, and I have been able to directly exchange with David Graeber himself a few times.
What I'm saying is that no decisions are made from what is being said here. Just look around, there are not important OWS protesters posting here. All the protesters who are on the field and take part in daily organizations use other channels. You'll find some of them on the chat portion of this site, but not the forum section. In any case, most threads are totally off topic. There's not much OWS talk around here.
BTW - Iv'e always been clear about who I was. I never tried to hide behind sock puppets. If I did, you would never know who I am. Everytime I made a new sock puppet, I told everyone my true colors. Your accusation is absolutely baseless and typical of you and DKAtoday and others who make themselves out to be the forum leaders and hand pick who the trolls are. If you read all my posts, you'll notice I never call anyone else a troll. I always fight the arguments, never the proposer like you do.
My whole reason for being here is because I'm against logical fallacies.
I just read that first sentence and it, in and of itself, is so flawed and contradictory that I didn't bother to go on. You'll have to do better than starting out with an asertion contradicted by your own obsessive focus on this forum.
Well, that's sad because I go on to state where the daily organizers of OWS post. And, you can go and post there too!
It should tell you something that jart posts more on reedit and anarchists website, then on this website that she herself created!
I used to think this forum was it, but two months ago I discovered the real deal. I mostly post in anarchic forum these days as they are closer to the core of OWS. This forum is just a bunch of posts on a huge variety of topics going from conspiracy theorists to a few posts about OWS.
It's up to you. You don't have to believe me. That's fine. However, if you care about OWS and want to get involved more deeply, I suggest you at least take a look at the NYCGA forums and the reedit channels on anarchy.
Yeah? And?
You must have read that whole thing already.
You're just a leader now ain't you.
Are you trying to make me loose trust in jart?
I don't mind that she's an anarchist, she don't mind that i am who I am.
It's just you that minds.
Mr negativity.
Not gonna happen from your rhetoric.
Not at all. I'm simply telling you how it is. You can believe me or not. If you want to check out what I say, then you'll go on reedit (search for jart and read some of her threads), or go on the NYCGA forum. You'll see that jart is quite active on the Internet front. She should be she's programming all day so she's in front of a machine. However, as you probably know already, she is not active here at all. You should wonder why. I mean, if I made the website which is supposed to be the hub of a protest Iv'e been organizing since day one, then I surely would use that site unless it has lost its worth no?
I don't ask you to believe me, nor do I care if you do. I'm just putting that information out there for those who might be interested in discussion issues with the core founders of Occupy on reedit or the NYCGA, instead of wasting their time here with the conspiracy theorists.
You're just one weird dude.
Since you are an admitted conspiracy theory, that just makes it all the weirder.
I gotta go to bed.
You have fun playing with your convoluted BS.
You never know, you might even start believing it.
I know I'll never hear you say word in actual support.
As usual, nothing but ad hominem. Sadly, most other users here are like you. They can only rely on logical fallacies.
You are the admitted conspiracy theory personified.
But you're not a bullshitter?
Sorry, I worked in a real live factory for far too long not to spot one of those.
Here you go son.
Here's the official deal. I don't see a repeat of any of your rhetoric.
http://www.occupiedmedia.com/
You know? That reminds me, I can't recall seeing you comment in a single one of the many official OWS threads here in the forum.
Not one word of encouragement from you at all.
You are negativity in way too many words.
I'm actually part of OWS Montreal now, and fighting on the ground with our troops everyday.
I don't use this site to discuss OWS since there really isn't much OWS discussion here. I discuss OWS on reedit with jart and other anarchists, and also on the NYCGA forum and on the Occupy Montreal forum. I mostly come here for fun and to practice my English writing skills. (English is my second (sort of third) language)
BTW - If you take a moment to read my posts that I made lately, you'll notice I constantly fight against democratic co-opting. I do this because I love OWS. I don't want it to be corrupted into a political protest.
But you are a known liar and conspiracy theorist.
So why should anyone believe you?
Now you want everyone to have an unintelligible bar code?
And you have have practiced and still endorse tyranny here on the forum?
I don't think I trust a thing you say anymore.
If it's just comments in the wind?
Why did you practice tyranny in the first place?
Because you could?
You know, I never saw you actually defend OWS either.
You just pick on people and sometimes the movement too, but you never have anything clear and concise to say about much of anything else.....
I don't ask anyone to believe me, and I don't care if they do. I provide arguments that can be weighed. Some of those come with strong evidence. It's up to the readers to make up their own mind.
Contrastingly, you seem to be asking readers to follow blind faith in yourself. You seem to attack the proposer instead of the arguments, which is an ad hominem logical fallacy.
If you don't believe me that's OK. If you want to use ad hominem instead of replying to my arguments that's also OK. In the end, the truth stands out and if my arguments have worth and some once of truth, then your ad hominem will not help to counter them. In fact, it's the opposite. If you had counter-arguments of worth you would use them. You don't, so you must rely on logical fallacies.
That's because you don't bother to read my comments since you have single handedly decided I'm a troll for everyone else. If you took a moment to read the many articles I posted on this board, you would realize my thought goes very deep at times.
But, it doesn't matter what you think. The only thing you can do is reply with the same ad hominem time and time again. I guess you are doing this because you want to control the thinking of others. You don't want them to think for themselves. I think they will no matter what.
So yeah, keep attacking me, that's fine. It doesn't bother me. I believe in arguments, not logical fallacies.
Thrasy, you need to get help.
As usual, you are unable to provide arguments for your position and simply use ad hominem. Things will never change. Well, good luck with your tactic which rests on nothing but logical fallacies. (Incidentally, your reply confirms everything I state above. You're whole game is based on high fives with those you agree with, and ad hominem with those you don't. You need to learn the art of discourse.)
I wasn't going to respond to this thread again...
The OWS movement was never about politics or political ideology. It wasn't about Libertarians, Anarchists, Democrats , Republicans, Liberals or Progressives. It was about greed. It was about the rich few who are systematically destroying our country in the name of profits. It didn't matter what your political beliefs were. If you were sick of being screwed over by the elite few who we sold our country to... You were part of the 99%. Sadly that message was lost a long time ago because every one wanted to make it their own personal protest for ( insert frivolous political issue ) that they are most concerned about.
We had a chance to fight for the one thing we all agreed on. Threw our own ignorance we lost that chance. Maybe the next generation will figure it out.
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So, you postulate, because I know you don't believe, that OWS wants ro replace the government with an anarcho-syndicalist model. That's interesting. What about the rest of the anarchists that don't particularly believe in anarcho-syndicalism?
Sorry, OWS states that it wants to replace the government with a general assembly on each street corner, not anarcho-syndicalism. My mistake. Thanks for the correction.
OWS is not one political persuasion. We are many. We share goals on the issues. May not always agree on tactics. But on issues like money in politics we are united. Support OWS Vote out pro citizens united politicians
This has been on the front page since day 1.
"Occupy Wall Street is a leaderless resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%. We are using the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic to achieve our ends and encourage the use of nonviolence to maximize the safety of all participants."
Yes indeed. It's a paragraph that describes the anarchic philosophies of OWS. Essentially, it's a leaderless protest (anarchy) that uses the civil disobedience tactics espoused in the Arab Spring protests which caused four revolutions (four governments were toppled, which is what OWS hopes to do to the US government).
I'm not sure why you posted that paragraph. Did you have a point to make?
The OWS movement may be anarchic in that it's leaderless. It's original goals were not to push anarchy or anarchist philosophy nor does that paragraph in any way imply it.
I would also like to add that it's the same thing Progressives, or progressive thinkers have been saying since this countries inception. Did you have a point when you replied to me ?
'leaderless resistance movement" implies anarchy.
You are twisting the words of the movement to discredit them
Just ask jart or zoe if OWS is about anarchy.
I dont have to ask anyone. This movement will evolve organically/naturally If that is anarchy then so be it. In any event it remains and will remain progressive. Progress. Forward!
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It does ? Specifically, what part of that paragraph says anything about making our government leaderless ?
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"We are using the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic to achieve our ends" implies that they want to overthrow the government like four of the Arab Springs governments were overthrown. If you read the front page again, you'll find another paragraph which states that OWS DOES NOT want to work with politicians and that they want to create a general assembly on every street corner.
The Arab Spring was a revolution, not an anarchic movement Seriously, do you know what you are talking about because i sure as hell don't.
I do know this. It's people like you who destroyed the OWS movement. It's people like you who couldn't keep their own personal political views out of it and focus on the real problem in this country... The rich few who have enough money to buy our politicians, government and ultimately us.
You have a good day.
Believe me, and it pains me to say this, but what he says about the original concept is true. The originators of this site are devout anarchists who have no love of the US government. They would like to see DC toppled and have said as much in comments made by them last year. That doesn't necessarily make them bad people, possibly a good portion of the developed world agrees with them, including people right here in the US. That doesn't mean it will ever happen, though.
I hate agreeing with Thrashy, but when a man is right, he's right.
The originators of this site are not the originators of the OWS movement, Merely pawns in it's game.
I didn't know OWS was destroyed. I'm sorry to hear you lost faith in the protest. Hopefully, there remains some people with hope.
OWS is not destroyed despite your best efforts. We cannot be stopped we are the 99% . Support OWS. Vote out pro norquist politicians
It does say in that paragraph that the movement includes people of many political persuasions and that we are the 99%. Can't possibly be either of those things if we exclude people. I agree with you that OWS, itself, should remain apolitical, but that doesn't mean that some supporters of OWS can't or shouldn't be political. They can do both, support the movement and be political, if they choose, in my opinion.
NO WAR
ows HAS NO CHOICE.... but to start playing politics... that is the point... to change the behavior of government.... hence... OWS must start getting serious, or give up... I ran for President... and will do so again... because I am mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore.
-Mosheh Eesho Muhammad Al-faraj Thezion http://mosheh.org/Home.html 1-818-397-1352 campaign@mosheh.org
Consider my platform... adopt it... and run for office... We must take over.. or be ruled over.... PERIOD.
Anarchy has shown its capacity to manage leaderless protests, but has it shown the ability to manage large scale economies?
I've heard of small experiments such as communes in Israel, but I've never heard of anarchists managing large scale economic entities such as big businesses or even small towns and cities.
It has shown its inability to manage small scale economies like OWS donations.
Sorry, I didn't read "inability" at first, but this is what I previously posted:
Well, that's good, but not necessarily a qualification for managing the US economy, wouldn't you think? I think such a movement would have to grow quite a bit organically, before it could take on such a task.
Your criticism of OWS shows clearly you don't support us. You cannot stop this movement. Support the 99% Vote out anti citizens united politicians
Yes, because the OWS movement was never about anarchists or their beliefs. The OWS movement in the U.S started out to remove money and greed from Washington, not remove our government. It has now turned into a cry about every thing under the sun movement, It's a joke.
The OWS movement needs to be co opted and focused on a few achievable goals or better yet, it's original goals.
How can that be true? Anarchists were the ones who started the protest.
You dont speak for the movement
OWS movement was started by Adbusters who are anti consumerists not anarchists. Furthermore it says on the front page of this very website what OWS was originally about. Now go away, your useless.
Adbusters gave the idea to start a protest, but it was anarchists that met on September 17th and decided what kind of protest it would be. I'm not sure what you are reading on the front page, but everything that's written screams anarchy. I think you need to read up on the history of OWS.
No body believes your nonsense. We believe in the issues that OWS espouses. We are the 99%. You are clearly against OWS. You continue to twist its words to split people from the movement. You cannot succeed we have right on our side and right makes might.