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Forum Post: Right-Libertarianism is BULLSHIT (part II)

Posted 1 year ago on June 17, 2013, 12:27 p.m. EST by struggleforfreedom80 (6584)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

In part I I explained what the actual consequences of a right-libertarian type society would be. Now I want to elaborate a little more on this abhorrent ideology, and take on some of the bullshit theories and principles that lay behind it.

One of the things that libertarians often point out is that no one should be allowed to interfere and regulate another peaceful individual’s business and property. Now that might sound appealing to some at first, but after further consideration you’ll realize that this is in reality a call for tyranny. If no one should be allowed to interfere in someone else’s business, then that means there'll be no regulations of the huge corporations either. They would get enormous power over the economy and our lives; it would be total corporate dominance and tyranny, with the owners and the financial elite making all the important decisions in society.

Secondly, we live in a modern technological society with an economy that affects everyone. In other words, decisions that one individual makes, can affect and have huge consequences for other individuals. In a society like this, it’s totally unreasonable to suggest that a huge and powerful corporation for example, shouldn’t be regulated by the public. People should have a say in the things that affect them. In other words, if your actions affect other people’s lives, then they should have a say in your actions. That must certainly apply to businesses as well.

Another claim coming from these ultra right-wingers, is that the society they want is based on free association, voluntary agreements and non-coercion. This is false.

In “free market” capitalism, the owners and the financial elite will have the overwhelming power and control over the economy and our workplaces. In a system like this, where there are such huge differences among individuals in terms of wealth, power and influence, it’s meaningless to talk about “voluntary agreements”. When some people control the institutions and resources in society, while others own nothing or very little, and have to sell their labor in order to survive, then that’s not voluntary agreements; it’s one individual being forced to accept the existing hierarchies and take orders from non-elected owners. In laissez-faire capitalism you’re forced to live in a system in which the wealthy have enormous power in the marketplace, and of course, you’re forced to live by the laws that allow this concentrated power to occur.

So in other words, the kind of society advocated by right-wing libertarians would be full of coercion and involuntary agreements. Right-libertarianism advocates a tyrannical society in which the wealthy are the rulers.

What we should work for is not right-libertarianism, but left-libertarianism: a sustainable society where democracy is the core and controlled from below; a society with more direct participation so that people are in control of their own life and work; a society with real voluntary association.


”Right-Libertarianism is BULLSHIT (part I)"

49 Comments

49 Comments


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[-] 2 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 1 year ago

I am trying to get input for various people for a screenplay that depicts a world that rebuilds itself very much as you describe. If we can't imagine it, how can we create it? Please feel free to check out the blog; it is just the beginning of the project, so it is not in screenplay form. I welcome all ideas, but do not need to hear anything about naivite or stupidity, unless you are suggesting a character :) http://createyourownreality-parksview.blogspot.com/

[-] 0 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

It should definitely include a lot of anarchists, don't you think?

[-] 3 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 1 year ago

I am not sure what an anarchist is. Feel free to create a character you would consider an anarchist and how this person will fit in the storyline as it is seen at the blog linked above. The more people begin thinking about the possibilities, the more likely they are to happen.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Anarchism is about opposing and dismantling authority and hierarchical structures in society, and creating a decentralized participatory democracy.

Read this and watch the videos:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-anarchism-is-the-way-to-go/

[-] 2 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 1 year ago

Okay. That is basically what my storyline is headed towards -- but the way I see it, the authority and hierarchy are collapsing without a lot of help. While everything collapses around the hero's little town, the more his way makes sense to the townspeople. An anarchist would be happy there. :) Right now, I anticipate that the ending will be the beginnings of forming an alliance with other towns and growing laterally, with direct democracy, and nearly everything being taken care of at the local level where it happens. Any thoughts you want to contribute to the story line blog as to how that might evolve are more than welcome. Thank you.

[-] 2 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 1 year ago

More and more I feel that our economic and political systems are in the throes of death, fighting desperately to survive the only way they ever have -- another bloody war and other knee-jerk reactions. IMO, we cannot stop our governments and other institutions from dying because they have been sick for a very long time -- corruption is the cancer of the bodies politic. The question is: what do WE do? Start the starting over right now, at the local level; then when the corrupt and callous institutions finally do die, we will have a base from which to rebuild our country -- maybe even the world. Inflation can wipe out all of the 1% overnight, and the people will have to be able to cope without money. Who do you think is best equipped to do that?

[-] -1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

I think we should mainly focus on these things:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-do-we-fight-capitalism-the-1/

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Now We're Talking !!! A serious piece and excellent read !! Thanx sfff ! Thus, as a segue and context connection I append the following deeply moving talk and 'Q&A' by the inestimable Dennis Kucinich :

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] -2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Yeah, I saw that article yesterday. Thanks for the links. Kucinich is one of the few politicians in the US that’s somewhat honest and reasonable. I might check out that lecture.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"The Structural Genocide That Is Capitalism'', by Javier Sethness :

Solidarity 'sff' and I really can't recommend the Kucinich video link, highly enough.

pax ...

[-] -2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Yes, that one.

I will check out the Kucinich lecture. Thanks.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Restoring Hope for America's Future Through Developing a Culture of Peace'', by Dennis Kucinich :

This is the transcript to the lecture DK gave [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fYE9YoM51k ] but I'll still recommend the video link because the 'Q&A' after the 40 minute talk is also excellent & moving too.

fiat lux ...

[-] 0 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

I’ll watch the video. I’ve got a vacation coming up soon, so then I’ll be able to go thru more of the not yet watched/read articles and videos. Thanks again.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''TPP is a Secret Obama Trade Agreement That Will Trump National Sovereignty'' :

''Can you see why both right-wing kings (Koch Bros, Walmart-heir dukes and earls, Reagan I, Bush I and II) and left-wing (ilol!) honchos (Bill Clinton, Robert Rubin, Barack Obama) make “free trade” the cornerstone of each of their economic policies ? It’s the song of the rich, and they all sing it.''

Yep, can't recommend that Kucinich lecture highly enough & enjoy your time off too :-) & ...

pax ...

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

The wealthy run the show. Obama is bought and paid for.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Yep & "A Tale of Two Presidents : The One We Voted For – and Obama'', by David Sirotta :

"Why Are Americans So Passive ? Get Pissed Off and Break Things !'' by Ted Rall :

multum in parvo ...

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Capitalism, Democracy and Elections'', by Prof. Richard D. Wolff :

''When conventional solutions fail and ever more people begin to really question, challenge, and oppose capitalism, capitalists generally support police and military repression. In extreme situations, they end electoral democracy by means of a military coup, dictatorship or otherwise. However, ending electoral democracy usually provokes anxiety even among the capitalists who support it. They worry that ending electoral democracy provokes social criticism and systemic opposition that can expand to include an undemocratic production system. They do not wish to lose a key benefit of properly controlled elections: distracting workers away from the issue of capitalism per se. Such elections are the cheapest and least dangerous way to secure the distance that capitalism keeps between itself and real democracy.''

Thanx for the excellent short Chomsky clip, which I strongly recommend & solidarity as we all 'sff'' ~*~

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 0 points by justiceforzim2 (-3) 1 year ago

Dennis had that right. The lefrt and right pols in DC are singing out of the same hymnal It has a green cover.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

There are only variations of 'right wing' in DC with VERY few exceptions imo and thus further consider :

Serious reading - for serious people in serious times & also consider http://www.popularresistance.org/ .

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 0 points by 4progress (49) 1 year ago

Agreed, you wouldn't believe how many arguments I've had with "Libertarian" Right people. UGGHHH... they'd just let poor people die and people die from lack of healthcare, also intense inequality and no laws to protect people from discrimination, therefore, they are also anti-civil rights movement...

[-] -1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Ron Paul, a great admirer of right-libertarian values, said the following back in 2004: ”The Civil Rights Act of 1964 did not improve race relations or enhance freedom.” And when asked what should happen with an uninsured dying man lying in a coma, Paul answered “That’s what freedom is all about, taking your own risk

Abhorrent.

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[-] 0 points by WSmith (1931) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Corporatism, plain and simple.

Despite the sliming Righties, Cons and Unicorn Chasers (that's you O) give it, democracy is still the worst political system, except for ALL the others!

But it requires Participation!

[-] -2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Democracy is what a future just society should be based on. But it should be a participatory democracy controlled from below: Libertarian Socialism.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1931) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

The Austrian School of economics, Libertarianism- socialist, right, left, poli-nomic Scientology, ending in corporatocracy.

Realize a participatory future, encourage more democratic participation.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1931) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

It's a tough row to hoe selling something as ice cream and calling it Weasel Scat.

Good luck with that, I have a hard enough time with democracy.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Well, the important thing is that people are introduced to the ideas of anarchism, and try to create a society based on them.

Most people would embrace the ideas if they were properly introduced to them.

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[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Thanks for the link. Rand's philosophy is certainly bullshit as well.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (26125) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

No man is an island - that just leads to the individual sinking below the waves.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Collective organization is important in order to establish decent rights for individuals.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (26125) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Dissing Ayn Rand and you get downvoted - yep the shills have got to go.

[-] -2 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

Bullshit is better than Socialism and Bullshit is about as low as it gets.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Lord knows that's all you got. Lots and lots of bullshit. In fact, you talk shit, lie about shit, circle jerk around shit. Yep. You're in the shit business.

[-] 0 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

Better in than out!

If I'm shit, does mean youre piss?

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Nope. Just means you're a bunch of bullshit.

[-] -1 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

Am I big?

[-] 4 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

In a steaming pile kind of way.

[-] -1 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

But at least I'm big.....

Being shit is Better than being nothing at all.

I think you are perfect in every possible way!

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

No, not really. It just means you are about a bunch of bullshit.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

In the end I know you are learning, Helping, and are a natural kind of leader. You are participating in the hard work of forming a government. It is hard work. It is thankless work. And it means not having a lot of support many times. This is the Democracy process. People have to reach their own opinion and trust themselves.

I see you as someone that has learned to dig into information and trust themselves. Although I don't like your style, I have to admire your strength.

And I think the Humanists on the Left have to recognize you as a human with value, experience, and an informed opinion. Everyone has a life experience that teaches them the way the world works.

I see lynch mobs on the Right that don't want people on the left to have opinions or to vote. To me this is fascist or elitist. But I also see people on the Left that would throw out the vote of the Republicans or the people on the Right like Barak Obama.

I guess the extremists on the left and the right cancel out each others votes.

Do we have a Bell Shaped Curve in the USA for Political Leanings? That is what I had heard. That most Americans are in the Middle. Most would hate secondary markets for sub-prime mortgages and would hate Fraud on Wall Street. Most hate war and selling weapons to increase GDP. Most would like to temper Defense spending as it is basically a transfer of Federal tax dollars to Defense Executives.

But anyway... Keep up your search, try to write professionally, and I think you have a strong future based on all the stuff you are learning as you dig into all of these issues.

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[-] -1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

That’s it? So no counter arguments?

No, actually libertarian socialism is what we should strive for. People should be able to control their own lives and work. The means of production should be controlled democratically by the workers and the communities.

[-] 2 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

How can you have Self Rule and Majority Rule at the same time?

[-] -1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Did you watch the video? Do you now realize that individual freedom also is about having the right to participate in the things you’re a part of and affected by?

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (26125) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Self rule in what you do in "your" life as long as you do not adversely affect others - in such a situation it would be your choice ( for example ) to do drugs or not - the majority rule would come in telling you that it would be illegal to operate a motor vehicle or heavy equipment ( etc ) while under the influence.

[-] 1 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

Your second example falls under Consensus, not majority. There is no significant opposition to motor vehicle regulations.

Swaraj is the same as individual sovereignty .

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (26125) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

What do you think consensus means? It is not a unanimous thing it is a majority thing.

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