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Forum Post: "Politics is a Subterfuge"

Posted 5 months ago on Feb. 12, 2014, 9:38 p.m. EST by gnomunny (5805) from St Louis, MO
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[-] 3 points by bullfrogma (448) 5 months ago

The "start a new civilization" piece is interesting.


What I've been thinking is that people need relief from their lives to focus on this stuff. Half the people that should join don't because they're already knee-deep in fighting against the cost of living. They don't know how to give that up, to be transient and feel comfortable in that kind of unknown. The way our society is set up right now, not having a home seems pretty intimidating.

So people can't join because they have a house to take care of, or a job to keep. If you could offer them an alternative however, you could create a collaboration of people with the free time and energy to devote into all sorts of projects.

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (5805) from St Louis, MO 5 months ago

I've been warming up to the 'start a new civilization' idea. We have more than enough mistakes to work from, so I imagine with the right combination of minds a pretty good model could be built.

There are plenty of people available right now to work on it, too. A lot of unemployed people with the time and skills. As long as food and a roof over their heads isn't a limiting factor.

[-] 2 points by bullfrogma (448) 5 months ago

Worst case scenario you don't need a roof, maybe a tent. Sometimes I go weeks without eating and it doesn't really matter. Just saying that staying alive is a lot easier then we've been led to believe. Fear is part of that method of keeping us dependent.

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (5805) from St Louis, MO 5 months ago

Absolutely. And I imagine a lot of people would be willing to go without a lot for the prospect of building a better society.

[-] 2 points by bullfrogma (448) 5 months ago

Living in a community is also exciting. We really are social creatures. Like rats deprived of wrestle play becoming less intelligent at problem solving, we need that stimulation, and love it.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (5805) from St Louis, MO 5 months ago

Oh yeah, definitely. That's probably a scientific fact. Lack of proper stimulation is degenerative.

[-] 2 points by DebtNEUTRALITYpetition (586) 5 months ago

....for debt indenturing.

[-] 4 points by gnomunny (5805) from St Louis, MO 5 months ago

Among other things.

I tend to agree with her somewhat. Unless we can get corporate money out of politics, eliminate the travesty known as the Electoral College and perhaps move to a system closer to proportional representation, voting is marginally effective, at best.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 5 months ago

and a bit outdated

representative existed because people couldn't communicate over long distances

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (5805) from St Louis, MO 5 months ago

Good point, Matt. Distance certainly isn't a factor anymore so perhaps a new model is needed.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 5 months ago

shutting down traffic for a day doesn't devastate the economy

all these billions lost is a mute point if people are still getting fed

it does however get everybody's attention

so the claimed economic damage is exaggerated because the market don't like competition

[-] -1 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 5 months ago

I say politics are what you make of them. In fact, you are engaged in politics right now.

Your politics actually support the repelican strategy of voter suppression

there is a long list of articles on the subject. You should pick one. Then ask yourself, why do they go to so much trouble to suppress voter participation?

Perhaps then you will be prepared to answer:

  • why do you?
[-] 2 points by gnomunny (5805) from St Louis, MO 5 months ago

I posted this because it's by Justine. This clip, plus comments she's made on Twitter and elsewhere, shows that she doesn't believe in politics as the answer to what ails us. In fact, she told me personally that she wishes politics wasn't discussed on this forum.

And aren't you the guy that just a few days ago compared Kshama Sawant with Carl with a fukin' K? The guy that said he thinks the citizens of N. Carolina should be kicked to the curb over that toxic spill because "N. Carolina's a red state?" Or something to that effect? The guy that claims to be an Independent but votes Democrat and phone banked for Obama not once but twice?

You have my sympathies, ZD, because of the MKUltra thing and all, but I said it once and I'll say it again. Stick with poetry 'cause "politics ain't your forté."

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 5 months ago

I don't care much for politics discussed here either

having once categorized subject, I have found politics republican/democrat to have the least substance

just a who supports what ?

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (5805) from St Louis, MO 5 months ago

Yeah, politics is way down my list of interesting subjects. Which is fine, of course, since there are a host of issues to address.

[-] -3 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 5 months ago

I really don't give a shit if you think politics is my forté or not. And I'm certainly not interested in your sympathies.

I understand the frustration that is apparent in the video. I get it. But to suggest that collapsing the economy is a solution and should be a specific goal illustrates an inability to completely grasp the consequences of realizing such a goal.

In late 2007 and early 2008 repelicans seriously considered not bailing out banks and wall street and the auto industry. Some of them were quite serious. These industries needed to be bailed out if we were going to keep sufficient numbers of Americans employed, and thus circulating money.

And yes, I did say Sawant sounded just like Carl witha K. All of you silly fukers do when you get up and dogmatically insist:

  • the bailouts were bad

  • ODRONA . . . .

YOu fukers sound just like repelicans.


and when I look at you, gee.no.money I am convinced you are intent on slapping every single protester in a very sly and back handed manner - as in gnomunny

passive aggressive mutherfuker


And no I did not say the people of any red state should simply be kicked to the curb over any form of deregulation - although now that I think about it, I probably have suggested that the good people of TExasss should leave, and then we should give it back to Mexico . . . it wouldn't take long as there aren't that many, I am sure - but it would hardly be fair to Mexico and I'm sure they have enough U.S. manufactured problems already . . . .


As far as Politics go, one definition is as follows:

  • ( functioning as singular ) the complex or aggregate of relationships of people in society, esp those relationships involving authority or power

everything taking place on this forum is a form of politics - everything OWS hopes to accomplish, depends on POLITICS

and anyone who really really wants to break shit is going to have to come to grips with the reality that the most effective method of breaking shit is to break it while playing by the rules.

that is exactly what rich people and repelicans do, and have done. It seems to me that politics has worked very very well for them. We have - or we HAD a very real opportunity to exploit the fruit of their overwhelming success and turn it on its head.

[-] 5 points by gnomunny (5805) from St Louis, MO 5 months ago

And you think any true supporter here gives a shit about your tunnel-vision view of politics? Take note: I said true supporters, not the small band of infiltrators and co-opters.

I'll get to the rest of your drivel later, if I decide to devote the time to it. I'm just taking this opportunity to bump the YT clip.

[-] -2 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 5 months ago

true supporter . . . of what? the repelican policy of curbing voter participation?

that's exactly what they want, and they are quite honest about it.

that's exactly what you want, and you are quite honest about it.

I get the frustration evident in the clip, but it does not point in a direction that leads to solutions.

Neither do you.

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (5805) from St Louis, MO 5 months ago

True supporters of OWS, you dumb fuck. My god, man, you see republicans under every rock.

Her clip doesn't propose any solutions. In fact, she makes it clear in the comment section that she's a bit frustrated about what exactly should be done. Her clip isn't about solutions, it's just her opinions and thoughts.

So, let's see what we've proposed as possible solutions. In the time I've been here I've suggested lowering our individual footprints. Our carbon footprints, our slavery footprints. I've suggested de-globalizing. I've suggested boycotting GMOs and that larger-scale monoculture is unsustainable. I've suggested buying local, and buying used when practical. Repair instead of replace. I've brought awareness to the militarization of society and the indoctrination of said militarization in our children. That's just off the top of my head.

And what has ZenDog suggested as the way forward?

Vote for Hillary in 2016!!!

Fuck you.

[-] 3 points by JGriff99mph (507) 5 months ago

Anyone interested in the deeper voter suppression should check out


If the entire process is rigged to begin with, then what the hell are we voting for?

And big ups to Mr Winger for tirelessly working on this project.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (5805) from St Louis, MO 5 months ago

I'll have to take a look at that in a while.

As soon as I can find the time, heheh.

It's bookmarked.

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 5 months ago
[-] 2 points by JGriff99mph (507) 5 months ago

And? The cases, the lawsuits and the judges decisions are all facts. Progressives of all types have a great deal of respect for him.

He's usually one of the first names that comes up in discussions of boards of elections, divisions of elections etc.

The site is a great asset, and a real eye opener. If you choose not to read it, fine with me.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (5805) from St Louis, MO 5 months ago

They like to shoot the messenger.

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 5 months ago


and while you are at it, have this http://larouchepac.com/

you lawn raulian reject you

[-] 2 points by JGriff99mph (507) 5 months ago

LaRouche is running some more people this year, as Democrats as usual :)

Courtesy of ballot access.org

The plot thickens.......


[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 5 months ago

and here we see clear evidence of lawn raulian co.option of the entire political process. I'll bet most of those candidates are just as insane as their leader.

That would be politics in TExasss . . .

[-] 1 points by JGriff99mph (507) 5 months ago

Cali too, I guess we got both extremes of what the people in this country consider "liberal" and "conservative".

I honestly didn't realize they ran candidates until I just read that.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 5 months ago

GMOs and that larger-scale monoculture is unsustainable.

well said though i find nothing wrong with GMOs, monoculture is unsustainable.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (5805) from St Louis, MO 5 months ago

It is possible GMOs might turn out to be a minor problem, but monoculture is definitely a BIG problem.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34975) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 months ago

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All of this may seem like bad news, but we cannot do anything about anything unless we know about it. So we say that this information will empower us in health and freedom. We just need to take actions to create a new future. We may be "consumers" but as Vanadana Shiva says, we are also "creators". We moms say, "We are creating a NEW FUTURE NOW! Keep sharing, buying organic and standing up for health and freedom!

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[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 5 months ago

gee.no.money: My god, man, you see republicans under every rock.

Actually I just open my eyes, and there they are. It's not my fault if lawn raulians are intent on co.opting OWS on the eve of a raulian Presidential bid . . . .

Everyone knows what to expect, right? It will just get worse the closer to the election we get.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (5805) from St Louis, MO 5 months ago

The Paulians are back? Where they at? Lemme at 'em.

I like you, Zen, you hilarious in your own way. Just when I thought you couldn't come up with a new label . . .

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 5 months ago

yes the republicans have been moving in that directions

but I suspect it's just a bid to maintain the two party system

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 5 months ago

you really don't understand repelicans very well at all.

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 5 months ago

gee.no.money: My god, man, you see republicans under every rock.

Their strategy is clear, their policies utterly destructive of the nation. The things you have listed are fine things, no doubt. But to end the corruption repelicans have absolutely got to go. Only then can sufficient pressure be brought to bear on the political apparatus to effect positive change . . .

OWS marched with unions. Unions vote dem. During the last decade, dems in some districts have been selling unions out. OWS combined with Unions can force that trend to reverse. That can have a direct impact on the lives of working Americans.

That is just one possible initiative that is cut short with the refusal to engage the political process.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (5805) from St Louis, MO 5 months ago

I don't have a problem with most of that, and I haven't been advocating not voting either. That's not why I posted the video. Like I said at the top, "For those who haven't seen it yet." Pretty straightforward Zen. I think it's good to see the views of people behind the scenes, don't you?

You seem to be fixated on my username lately, for some odd reason. Pretty strange. And I seriously don't get the connection between it and that jpeg you keep posting. Never been to Zuccotti. And I'm not that young. Or thin, heheh.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 5 months ago

I've seen a lot of tricks applied using language and symbolism. Your signin name looks like one more little dig, this one aimed at the kids in Zucotti.

Division on the basis of class and the maintenance of that division is a simple and convenient strategy for right wing conservatives. In this case your name serves as a passive aggressive insult at all the kids as well. It serves to reinforce a defeatist mindset among those at the bottom.

It also serves as a marker to other trolls.

I do think you are a troll.

A conservative troll.

I could be wrong of course - but I don't believe I am, and I think statistics would suggest otherwise.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (5805) from St Louis, MO 5 months ago

Being a would-be poet is indicative of one thing. You sure have a fertile imagination. I had this username long before I came to this site. Wanted to comment on a website a few years back right after getting laid off and it fit. Came on here and used the same one.

Your baseless aspersions are hollow anyway. My character's intact. Good try though.

And who's trolling who, now? Hmmm, I scroll thru the thread and see JGriff linking ballot-access.org. which is related to the OP. We have bullfrogma, who's talking about the 'new civilization' idea, which Justine supports. We have Matt giving his opinion about it all.

And then there's you . . .

[-] -1 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 5 months ago

Being a would-be poet is indicative of one thing.

would be nothin - I am a poet. It isn't my fault much of what passes as poetry these days is simple prose, and so you wouldn't know the difference. A minor poet, no doubt, but a poet none the less. I do believe I have surpassed the volume of Owen's work, surely no one would suggest Owen was a minor poet. Among the annals of anti-war poetry the man stands head and shoulders above the field, and yet the volume of his work, through no fault of his own, is quite small. And so we can say with calm and clarity, it is not the volume of work that makes a poet.

You can say that I am too lazy, too undisciplined and have lost my voice - to any of that perhaps I will not argue, but at least I am not so lazy that I bend myself to the fat ass of American literary culture in a squalid attempt to get published and thus maintain my name before the readers of the world, for want of anything else to do. I simply refuse. I am not at all skilled in the art of kissing ass - I simply have no gift for it.

As for what my work may reveal about self, if all you can see is a fertile imagination, I will be content to leave it there. Surely more is in evidence, a fact that does give some small discomfort at times; just as your own statement may reveal more about you than it ever does about me - but no matter. Whatever the work may or may not say about myself was never central to its purpose.

If you insist that the use of your current user name is innocent, that instead of deliberately reinforcing class division or the psychology of failure - that instead you are nothing but a tool . . . well. It is possible. I have seen it. Even with an awareness of the utility of human behavior, it can be extremely difficult to avoid situations and behavior that lend themselves to others.

As for trolling . . . we had begun a conversation. It was as if you walked away to continue it with someone else, and all within my hearing.


imagine that.


and yet your continued utility to the . . . the . . . Koch Machine . . . is a fact which will be noted.


[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 5 months ago

spelling error.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 5 months ago

if there is no enough work for everyone

only a minority will belong to the union

the jobless are not represented

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 5 months ago

if you joined a union your name would go on a list, and once your name was called you would have a job.