Forum Post: Paul Ryan wants to GUT Medicare, and Calls Social Security a Ponzi Scheme
Posted 11 years ago on Aug. 13, 2012, 9:16 p.m. EST by ComeTogetherNOW
(650)
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This really says it ALL. This is why the GOTP will lose this November by a landslide. Many of us have skin in this game NOW and we WILL protect our rights as citizens of this wonderful country of ours by exercising our GOD GIVEN RIGHT to VOTE (and insured by our government, well, it should be) so we can MAKE these a$$hats go the hell home and keep the mean clowns out of Washington where the business of the people by the people occurs.
If you don't like it VOTE!!! Now it does matter, BIG TIME.
The choice is crystal CLEAR. ANd by the way, this is how democracy works! Remember, I was there! This is what democracy sounds like!!! We can use the system if ONLY we show UP! We must be involved in VOTING the same way we feel about protesting. In both, our voice is heard. Hand in glove.
Come Together NOW, and SEE THE LIGHT!!!
Dem plan reduces medicare costs by $700B over 10 years by taking from the health care corps (big pharme, big insu, big hosp prov) and uses the $700B to close the medicare prescription donut hole and maintain/enhance the gaurante of health benefits for decades to come.
That is the right way to improve & strengthen medicare. With Progressive solutions. Not Ryan/Romney/Ayn rand conservative "heres a voucher fend for yourself" strategy. It's immoral.
The republicans will gut almost a trillion dollars from medicare by passing costs to the elderly through inadequately funded vouchers that will not be enough to keep up with the costs of private insurance & use the trillion that they gut for wealthy tax cuts. It's immoral
VQ---------------------
Totally immoral. And the Repugs proudly call themselves practicing Christains. I think they are practicing at being devils which explains why they invented the concept, so they could at least describe their own behavior. They were so busy calling everyone else evil that they forgot to look in the mirror to see the most devious devil of them all, themselves.
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They know it's evil and unchristian. The repuglican leaders are not really religious. They say they are, but they do that simply to appeal to their christian fundamental cases base.
They created and nurtured that ignorant demographic just to have an easily led voting base. It's disgusting,
This is so true. They hide behind the bible, no doubt. They must think we're that stupid. They say something's true. But just sayong doesn't make it so. It makes it so only for their brainwashed followers.
Good point VQ!!
Come Together NOW
Every dog (god) has his day.
So true. Some truths will hurt us immensely if left to be ignored and instead replaced by ego-tripped baseless principles. Such as, get ahead in this world by any means possible. The ends justifies the means.
When will we ever learn. Certainly not in my lifetime. Ignorance still rules.
Good point VQ. Nice to see here fighting for rational coherent ideas that can make all our lifes so much better.
Come Together NOW
And the baseless principle of "keeping up with the Jones". A most damaging concept when you are not well of.
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obamacare has already taken 700 bil from medicare to pay for obamacare.
not yet. in a year or so we will begin slowing the growth by about $70b a year by making health ins, big karma, and hosp pay more. All benefits to the elderly will be expanded. We will use the money to close the republican prescription donut hole. We will not end the guarantee for future recipients. We will strengthen it. Repubs will destroy it as they have tried to do since dems created it.
quite simply, you're wrong.
I am exactly right and furthermore repubs are trying to destroy medicare (with inadequate vouchers) and Social Security (with privatization) as they have been trying to do since democrats created these great well loved services for the 99%.
you've never been right,..............................about anything.
I guess we have to agree to disagree.
I stand with the good, hard working, American, elderly who depend on and support Medicare, & Social Security.
You do not. You stand with the Republican party who has been trying to destroy these programs since the dems created them.
Peace, Good luck in all your GOOD efforts.
obamacare guts medicare. you stand with obama?
The ACA does no such thing. The ACA strengthens and expands medicare benefits.
That's just republican untrue talking points.
yes bub, it does. obamacare takes( steals) over 700 bil $ from medcare and gives it to obamacare. thats a fact, not an opinion.
Nope! reduces costs by making corps pay more, uses the savings to expand medicare srvcs to the elderly.
cuts costs. expands, & strengthens benefits. Yeah.! That is one bad ass President.
USA! USA! USA!
In your face! Sucka!
yes , obama is one bad ass. regarding obamacare, you know so much about what you dont know.
LMFAO. AAaaaahhhhh! Ha Ha ha ha ha ha!
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Support affordable health care for all
MEdicare is already being gutted, and SS is a ponzi scheme if we are not allowed to opt out if we choose.
A lot of old people depend on SS. For some, it's all they have. Their dreams of becoming a millionaire somehow fell short like most who try. At least 96% fall short. Not only that many people in America have not saved enough in their 401Ks to retire (or survive). It does not fit the definition of a Ponzi scheme. We did put OUR money in their. You know hchc I do believe that's why they call it an entitlement. I think that describes it better than a ponzi scheme. Rick Perry called it such.
So you agree with Rick Perry and Paul Ryan, the two lovely darlings of the Tee Pee Pee crowd??
Thanks for the post! We need blazing GB represented fairly here. (even though he isn't fair minded)
Come Together NOW
I dont agree with them. Im saying that the congress is so disfunctional and corrupted taht they clearly dont have the money to pay back the people who have been paying into it for the last 45 years.
Its not keeping up with inflation at all. Two of last three years no cola increase. Its dependent on a pool underneath still paying into it to keep it going.
The money the people who are collecting it have already been paid into it.
Do you have any clue what would happen if young people all just opted out? There would be ZERO money for the gov to give to the people who already paid into it. It would collapse the entire financial system.
That is a ponzi scheme.
There are laws that govern everything that the Department of SS does.The Cost of Living Adjustment is based on an evaluation of a group of indicators such as the Consumer Price Index and several other indicators which are generated by other government agencies such as the Congressional Budget Office.The figures used are gathered and processed the same way every year,and there are quite a few reasons why the result might come out with no COLA.There really is no way government employees in all of these different departments could possibly be in collusion to make the COLA calculations come out wrong because all such calculations are automatically reviewed by internally based auditors,plus independant auditors AND the OMB.The most frequently cited reason for the COLA coming out negative has been a slump in oil prices which is not apparent due to price volotility.In any case,the indices used to determine whether or not a COLA will take place are set by Congress,are laws,and cannot be arbitrarily altered by the Department of SS
I think they manipulate the cola number in what they include in the "group of indicators", and maybe the product it tracks in the consumer price index.
Either way they are trying to save money on the backs of the elderly so it must be republicans behinf that particular scam.
Elect progressive. Vote out anti Social Security/Medicare republicans
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Really? Inflation by gov standards, which is bullshit, is at 3%. They give no cola for over three years?
do you even realize how the gov calculates inflation?
What it is is mis-management by the government borrowing from and not paying back to the program. It is a continuation of poor ( stupid Insane ? ) economic practices by the government.
It is still an entitlement. We paid, and we were promised. We will make sure this one is kept. This why the GOTP must now lose. They lose, NOT US.
So, it's no, it is not Ponzi scheme. The GOTP wants to turn it into one as a self fulfilling prophecy, but it won't happen. They lose. Mark my words right here. The America People will WIN and they, the GOTP will surely lose, BiG TIME!
Thanks hchc, you have helped me make my point. Have nice night my friend!
Come Together NOW
Read up on Flemming v. Nestor, 363 U.S. 603 (1960), the SCOTUS decision. Basically the court found that it is NOT an entitlement and once you pay in, it is not longer your property but the property of the federal government. Congress can change the benefits at any time.
Let's not let Lyin Ryan fool the under 55 people that a Medicare voucher system is as good as the existing govt guarantee.
Do not believe BullMitt Romney when he says Medicare is going default.......... in 15 years.
Don't believe it.
Elect progressives, Vote out anti medicare republicans
That court case relates to SS, not Medicare.
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Totally agree. It would be a national tragedy if Medicare is gutted in such a callous way. Frankly I see it as losing the American way. When did we start hating this country so much that we want to lay waste to it.
Wake UP!!!
Come Together NOW
We are in agreement. there is a few here I'm battling who take issue with all the wrong things. The "parties are the same" "System can't be fixed" "don't vote" crowd, would have us give up, and crawl into the nearest corner.
It's sickening.
You are one of a few lights brother.
Solidarity.
The consequences are so dire that we must continue to fight this battle relentlessly. The rich and super rich have absolutely no skin in this game. For the 99%. we're all in.
Come Together NOW
On this site we must relentlessly challenge any "parties are the same" fallacies! All "system is un reformable" lies! Every "no point in voting" non sense.
There are only a few still pushing this damaging view We muststay on top of them
Truthfully, and I may be wrong, really just speculating, but I think this mindset carried by some here is a direct result of age. I relate to their thinking in the same respect that when I was much younger (60s, 70s) and had to base my beliefs and view of the world on less facts, less knowledge, and less wisdom. But what has never left me, is trust in our government, or anyone, must be based on some sure facts. In my teen age and twenties, those years, I trusted very few and was constantly suspicious of what others wanted or were doing. ANd the world when I was young was being flushed down a huge cosmic toilet and it seemed there'd be nothing we could do about it. And I now I hear a flushing sound, and it is happening. It may very well be too late to stop it. The Earth won't mind to oblige us, it's on it's own evolutionary path that had some interesting time with silly humans for a while, a short stint, We were just next in line after the DINOs.
So yes, their cynical, probably a good thing for now, but we can hope in future years they'll turn towards to science and the known world which has many lessons for us to learn. There, as Jefferson did, we can learn something far more vast and full of wonder that we can assured Jefferson himself dreamed of. Humankind advanced during that enlightenment period. But all of it comes in time as we feed ourselves on recognizable tangible truths that have and lie ahead. The Age Of Reason is still upon us,,,,, we just have not reached far enough yet. I just think the Earth may be on a different schedule and this is our cosmic ship for the time being.
Come Together NOW
Dude, I realize you paid into it. You think they fuckin care? You think they give a damn how much you paid into it? They dont.
Its one generation into it and its already relying on people who are 30 years from collection not to just support the SS program, but the entire government.
Like I said, take the 15% from the employee/employer (the SS payins) and the ENTIRE SYSTEM collpases.
That is not a healthy program. That is GROSS abuse of what was suppose to be about managing a persons personal money to take care of their retirement for them.
hchc------------------>
You think if we vote they'll care?
Do you think if we hold our elected politicians accountable, they will care?
Again, setting me up, brilliant. Thanks hchc. You make a great devil's advocate. You have class and at least show some respect. Certainly commendable around these parts!
Come Together NOW, ---VOTE---, hold our elected Politicians ACCOUNTABLE to US ----->>>> WE THE PEOPLE
Friendly ADVICE__
This only happens when we ALL pay attention, study the facts, and VOTE. Do IT!
I hope you will be voting for a candidate who is not manufactured by one of the two political factories. Every election is the same. We vote in the newer model, hoping for a real improvement in performance, but it has the identical flaw that previous models all had. The steering wheel was broken. We turn in one direction and it turns another. We get out to check under the hood and it runs us over.
Look for another manufacturer. Put the old ones out of business. Find a vehicle that we can drive to our destination, not someone else's.
The word of the day is Realistic.
Realistically speaking, you should vote for a candidate who at least has a snowball's chance in hell at winning. Otherwise, you have thrown away your vote, and you can't even put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Come Together NOW
"Of two evils, choose neither." – Charles Spurgeon
And, that, is total bullshit. Life is nothing but compromises. No wonder the name is unfamiliar to me.
Kaiser, couldn't you find a better quote than that? It's lame.
OK, let's be Realistic. Your way of thinking has insured that corruption will prevail for the past 40 years. It will insure corruption for the next 40.
My way of thinking is logical. Voting makes rational sense for anyone serious about promoting change. If voters keep putting in clowns who are bought by the rich to do their bidding on the laws of the land, then we will get more of the same. The politicians are a direct result of what the voters decided.
If you don't vote, or knowingly throw away your vote, you have then decided you didn't care about that politician. You decided to accept whatever politician was delivered. Then to talk down the elected politician, after the fact, as if that makes any difference, is the height of cynicism and defies rational thinking. I know some people who complain constantly always looking for others to blame for their station in life. It's a dreadful diatribe, but then, come to find out, they never consider any civic duty to make this country better, they talk about politics with angst but, on scale from 1 - 10, ten being politically active 24/7 and five being average political contributor, they are ZERO. They do nothing but complain to others who tire of the constant pattern of complaining. Some may grow up some day and mature some more, while others have steeped into this life style for a long time, and cling to those comforts that allow them to believe what is NEVER true, IGNORANCE IS BLISS.
I realize for many perception is Reality. It's always true in business. But never true in scientific Reality. Try to stop drinking water, see how that one works out. That's the one that doesn't any belief systems or faith. It arrives in our mind, and we may choose to survive well, or we may have an accident. We could have horrifying surprises. Those who ignore the TRUTH do so to their very peril. No, ignoring some Truths may not hurt you, but many will and do. If you decide not to pay attention and fly by the seat of your pants, you may glide along ok, for a time, but ignorance many times is patient and catches up. Then you get tapped. How it happens is the Mystery. Life is a Mystery. Very deep. Up for it?
It's not too LATE..........
Come Together NOW, and discover the TRUTH
Your rational argument for voting for the sure candidate is identical to the Republican argument. Either parties candidate is never the peoples candidate because the people don't choose him. Money does.
When the people realize that both parties have not delivered, they will leave and a candidate who will deliver. Independents are now 40% of the electorate. Both Reps and Dems days are numbered.
It's really about diametrically opposed philosophies. The democrats have a philosophy and the republicans have one that's almost exactly opposite. To pretend that there one and the same is to ignore this fact. Those who ignore facts and could care less to get them straight shows a lack of respect and complete disregard for those things which are obviously true. It would be like throwing away the dictionary and re-inventing language all over again so we can have any shot to understand others.
So,,,,,,,,,,,,,,see the light.....................
Come Together NOW
Their philosophies may differ, but their MO is the same.
Cast the other party as the enemy.
Instill the fear that to leave the party will allow the enemy party to take over.
Obey the party. Don't question it's faults.
Your security is dependent on the party.
Substitute a religion, a nation, even a street gang for the word "party" and the result is still the same. A group of individuals that gives up a portion of their personal power to the leaders of that group. Once empowered they will do almost anything to retain it.
No where in the Constitution is party mentioned. Democracy does not depend on the consolidated power of a party, it depends on the widely dispersed independent power of it's members.
The party system was set-up so people could know something about a candidates beliefs by what party they subscribed to.
What party was our founding father Thomas Jefferson affiliated with?
Did he rail against the party system in his time?
There is a very logical reason we have this party system as I already stated.
You propose to replace that with what, anarchy?
Are you better than Jefferson?
I propose to replace the current oligarchy with a democracy that is as equitably dispersed as possible. Do you think Jefferson would object?
Oh, I'll be voting alright. Just not for candidates who align with parties that support free slave trade, banker robbery, massive federal reserve printing, wall st bailouts, no gay marriage, ........
That will put you in with the 60% of eligible voters who will actually vote this year. BRAVO. Truly, this is how it works. I tend towards the club that says if you bully ache a lot about politics but don't vote, then talk to the hand, some where some how we must have missed some critical fact on the par with breathing air to sustain life. Without it we wouldn't survive ten minutes before we coast into the infinite forever zone. To be or Not to Be, NOT. That air is our VOTE. Politicians get elected with VOTES.
Come Together NOW
60% of "eligible" voters number is so incredibly high. I remember after 08 election that I did a decent amount of work on the number was like 51%, because we were happy that at least half the elibible people voted.
Do you realize only 70% of the population over 18 is registered? So 30% dont even care enough in that regard. Of that 70%, only 50% vote. Do the math. Its a pathetic turnout in all regards.
And, now, you have seen the enemy, it's us.
When we can REALLY get out the VOTE, maybe THEN we can hope for real change. Until then, we are all dreamers dreaming the impossible dream.
Good point hchc. Your on A roll!!!
Come Together NOW
100% of the entire population, along with generations of dead people, all voting for lesser of two idiots, will get you the same results were in, moron.
Increasing the pool, without increasing the integrity, does nothing.
Who's the moron?
Is this what you do when you have nothing good to say?
Simply expanding the base when they all vote for pathetic choices does nothing.,...
Unless you work for CNN or FOX. Then you get a great story of democracy in action.
Well, certainly striving towards perfection gives one a direction, but always remember that no matter what century we're in, we will always be far far away from perfection.
In fact, PERFECTION, is an Idea ONLY, no where in nature does it EVER occur. But we should strive for it, but doing it realistically, and knowing that we never ever reach it. Not even close.
So, what we do, is this---------------------------------->
Come Together NOW
lol
Paul Ryan - alienating old republicans to help Romney lose the election since early August
With new invigorated GOTP Party, they could not help themselves. They have really soiled themselves this time and the stench gets worse as the days wear on.
Thanks Trevor!
Come Together NOW
everyone has a right to medical care, food and shelter, an education. these are basic necessities that should be provided by our government. it's a right to life. makes no sense that a simple doctors visit for a checkup cost $1200 if you are uninsured, for a decent education thousands of dollars in loans, eating healthy organic food that is not contaminated with pesticides and genetic modification that costs double or triple than the unhealthier cheaper version. Wealthy people can afford this comfortable living of top tier treatment, but us middle class are struggling with the high cost of healthcare, housing, food, education. medicare and social security doesn't mean anything to the wealthy, they have themselves set for life while the struggling class is trying to safeguard their futures. i am sad for the elderly and for our futures that we have to think about medical care at our old age if it's available for us. it doesn't matter who you vote for, all politicians are puppets of corporations. all they do is move their mouths, they don't really care about us. if we really want change, we need to bring down the corporations. i hate to say it, but we need to bring down capitalism. Capitalism has reared its ugly head and took a wrong direction. it's not democracy anymore, we're all a new form of enslavement. We serve corporations. We consume in the way corporations want us to. it's mass brainwashing. you call it democracy, i call it an illusion of democracy, the illusion of choice when there isn't one to begin with.
Welcome freethemouse. I like what you say. We need to go in the direction you outlined. We need to make sure all of us are doing the best we can pursuing our dream of happiness. With that, we need the opportunity, the foundation, and people who care, and who will help us head in the right direction. This is how we can really live and feel a sense of purpose that we are here to make a difference.
Thanks for the wonderful post. There is HOPE.
Come Together NOW
Paul Ryan, like many of his followers woyuld like nothing less than to see SS abolished. He's a TP darling and they have made it clear that's what they want, abolish SS,
Smell the coffee, drink it, wake up, before it's too late.
And PLZZ_Z_Z_Z_Z-Z_Z_Z_Z-Z_Z_Z_Z-Z
DO SOMETHING!!!
Come Together NOW
When seeking to make change in the way government works, it is often (always) necessary to work within the pre-established system while working to affect change from the outside, thus being able to move from both sides equally.
So it would appear that actually voting this election and moving to insure influence inside the system in the future would be not only necessary but prudent.
Zin-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-ggggggggggggggg. You got Pandora. I like focus but we should always focus where it matters. A multi-pronged approach. To ignore one of these avenues of real change is to also leave yourself open to gain on one side while losing the other. You win and you lose. In the end, it's wash out. A lot of work, for nothing, no gain. Strategy is extremely important. Intelligence on how the system works and what it responds to, prerequisite.
Thanks!
Come Together NOW
more proof ows has been astroturfed by the corporate whores of the DNC.
Ryan is a greedy heartless economic survival of the fittest who will steal from the poor to give to the rich. If you stand with him you stand against the 99%
come on, you can caricature it better than that. where's your "nazi!!!" screams? where's your "he's partners with a cancer murderer!!!" charge? why half ass it like this? as long as you come here to suck DNC dick pretending to be ows, go all out.
it's not like what you say will matter one whit to anyone regarding their voting preference.
he saw a band at American U during his Washington Semester called Christ on Crack. seriously! Paul Ryan attended a house party in DC when he was at AU to see the band CHRIST ON CRACK.
run with that. it proves he loves Satan.
You are so mean spirited, and offensive.
Why? Let go the anger, it leads to fear, then hate, and finally the dark side. Then you are lost.
Solidarity. Vote out anti Buffet rule, pro Norquist politicians!
"You are so mean spirited, and offensive."
coming from a false-virtue, politically correct, media-manipulated, partisan hack astroturfing ows for the corporate whores at the DNC, thanks for the compliment.
CHRIST ON CRACK!!! how can a good catholic boy be legit when he chooses to watch something so vile? you should make this important and earth-shattering revelation known to all.
You are just an angry, offensive child who appears to come here just to tear down.
Do you kick small animals too?
But really it's proof of your avoidance of arguing an issue. You rather, in your infinite wisdom, call this whole subject irrelevant. How convenient for you since you probably don't want people to know the real truth about Paul Ryan.
We know the lies about the truth of Paul Ryan. Saying something is true doesn't really make it true, never did, never will. If your not digging for truth you won't find it, it is elusive to the uneducated. It runs deep. Seeking it requires utmost critical thinking. One thing is true, it's discoverable and holds up flawlessly to scrutiny. If you want it, it doesn't hide from you, get it, it there's waiting. You'll never have to be sorry for time well spent. It's worthwhile. Our life is for a reason, and we need to fulfill that purpose. It's our primary motivation. And not surprisingly truth will have something to do with that journey. For me, it's direction. I have found a path.
Am I right? If not, then what is the purpose of your posting here player?
Do Something, CONSTRUCTIVE!
Come Together NOW
I dont think most people understand, so here you go:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/08/paul-ryans-2011-medicare-plan-a-primer/
And here's a quote from that article: "Critics have called Ryan’s 2011 proposal the “end of Medicare as we know it,” and that’s true".
You betcha and it will only be a shell of what it was. Maybe then the GOTP will happily call it a failure after the gutting and bleed out. And they'll say government does nothing right, then it will be a mercy kill. (But we did put a man on the moon, put a rover on Mars, and built a national highway system, but hey who's counting.)
Thanks hchc!
Come Together NOW
Don't worry, even if Romney does get voted in (and Obama is a lock) the changes are so far out that medicare will not be around regardless, or will be a shell of what it currently is.
They already yanked billions out of it, Im not sure how much more it can take.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/08/president-obama-in-2009-pledged-to-veto-attempts-to-undo-medicare-cuts/
Not that far. Sounds like your a young person. That's fine. It really does come with experience and there's no short cuts. But those of us who have been around long enough to see history repeat several times over realize life is very short and some day it will be you hchc. We all will find ourselves at someone else's mercy some day, or we will left out like a pile of garbage waiting to go to the landfill. We can hope for compassion but it seems to be running short and maybe some day we'll have little left.
Just don't get old. Don't do it. And for God sakes don't get sick. Pray a lot. It's the only vestige of hope. When that's done, find a ditch and lay down. Maybe when you breath your last breath some one will throw some dirt on top.
Just a thought. Thanks Again!
Come Together NOW
I think we should get the same health coverage as the assholes in congress. The people dont seem to agree with me.
SS has barely been around for one full generation. It will not be there for me. This economic system is collpasing. And for good reason.
ryan has said that his plan will give the same medical coverage that he , as a member of congress receives, will be given to the rest citizens of the usa.
He says a lot of bullshit. Its all bullshit. They arent interested in that. or they would just fuckin do it.
congress passed a budget, reid will not allow the senate to take it up. the obama budget was voted down by all the members of the senate, all the dems voted against it. ryan has said that his plan is the same medical coverage that memebers of congress have. reid does not allow anything passed by the congress to make it to the democrat controlled floor of the senate.
yeah right. everybody has to pay medical insurance. lets assume that im still young and i dont need that much medical attention
obamacarce forces people to have medical insurance. right now, if you dont want to have it you dont have to, you can pay out of pocket if you choose to and many do. if you do want obamcare you are progressively taxed for not buy a product you do not want.
if everybody pay 10c a day it would be $11373104970,5 a year for whole medical system. i know this is not enough...
it has to be like in Russia or Canada. every medical treatment that comes to your mind is free. anything especial like cancer or brain hematoma its on you. do you understand me on that? if you have undefined pain on your back you going to the private clinic and then after you got your results you going back to government hospital to get medical treatment. this is how it has to be. Government have to pay for their own people, not you hehehe
it does not have to be like russia or canada.
Still advocating destroying Social Security
If it was up to me, the public would be electing people decent enough to uphold it, to make the tough decisions to keep it together.
They arent. Your kind, the idiots that vote for 100+ years old parties, are the ones to blame. Dont bring me into your twisted warped view of whats up.
the age of the party? this is how you decide? how about the issues. One party created and will strengthen and improve Social Security. The other party has been working to destroy and most recently has chosen to do so by pushing people have the choice to leavethe system and invest their own money. Kinda like your suggestion.
So on the issues. and this issue particularly one party IS better. However old it is.
Nope, both are ruining it, would you like a list of destructive biparisan policy over the last 20 years? DKA has it.
One wont save it, the other wants to change it, both will destroy it. They dont fuckin care dude. Get it through your thick fuckin head.
Twain: Politicians are like diapers. Both should be changed often and for the same reason.
If you cant see the relationship throughout history of institutions and corruption, in relation to age, then you are even dumber than I thought.
insults = weak arguments. You can't discuss the substance so you must try to bully me. Doesn't change the facts.
One party created and will strengthen and improve Social Security. The other party has been working to destroy and most recently has chosen to do so by pushing people have the choice to leave the system and invest their own money. Kinda like your suggestion.
You ain't kiddin anyone. SS will be fine as long as repubs keep their hands off. Elect progressives, vote out anti Social Security republicans.
OK, please expaling to me how dems not giving any cola adjustements 3 of the last 4 years is strenghening it?
And what else are they doing to strengthen it. God you are guilible.
dems fight to protect SS from repubs who want to destroy it
The Dems are battling your republicans who are trying to destroy it as they've been doing since the dems created it.
Nothing as usual....ugh!!
I state real reasons why they are both bad, why SS already is technically being robbed. You come back with talking points. Is anyone else seeing a pattern here :)
The democrats are fighting to keep Social security from being destroyed by republicans designs to privatize it.!!!
Low inflation, no cola adjustments. Dems would have but repubs blocked it.
Thats the truth. What else do you want. Fighting to save it, fighting for colas but losing to repubs.
How is fighting .... not suggesting anything? Give me actual actions besides your talking points.
You cant. Either join the fight for someting better or get the hell out of the way.
Why are you dragging me into your conversation? What exactly are you attributing to me?
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Unfortunately, Social Security is in fact being run like a Ponzi scheme. Here's why: when social security taxes are collected, they are in theory placed in the "social security trust fund."
That fund is essentially a fiction, an accounting trick. Here's why: The funds are "invested" in treasury bills. The government lends the money to itself, then gives itself a T-bill as an IOU, and the IOU is the "investment." The money itself is immediately spent on general government spending -- the war, bridges, salaries, pork, whatever.
When it comes time to pay out the social security funds, the T-bills are cashed in, but there's no money anywhere to cash them out -- the money was spent almost immediately, and the U.S. government has no surplus money -- the only "investment' was the government lending money to itself, to be paid back from future revenues (ultimately, taxes from the same population of taxpayers that got taxed the first time around), and the only collateral was the government's IOU in the form of a T-bill. So, since there's nothing there to pay off that T-bill with, they get the money from 1) new tax revenue, or 2) borrowing it from folks like the Chinese government. The split is about 60% new tax revenue, 40% borrowing.
1 is the classic trait of a Ponzi scheme -- paying off old investors with money from new investors, rather than from claimed but non-existent or fraudulent investments.
Another trait of a Ponzi scheme is that it only works as long as you have a fresh crop of suckers that's big enough to pay off the old crop. Social security has that same issue: since they don't actually invest the money (unless you count lending money to yourself as an investment), they need a continual crop of new taxpayers and bond buyers that's big enough to pay off the older ones that are now receiving benefits. The baby boomer bubble is too big and population growth is too slow, so the new crop just isn't big enough to keep the scam going. That's why everybody is so concerned about Social Security going broke, and why some compare it to a Ponzi scheme.
The accounting and "investments" are dishonest at best, fraudulent at worst. If you tried this sort of accounting at a private organization and got caught, you'd probably go to jail.
If you care about Social Security, you should be very concerned about all of this. Some day, there's going to be hell to pay, because the current funding method is completely unsustainable, and everyone involved knows it.
If we just remove the payroll deductions cap so that the wealthy pay, add a tax on cap gains, passive income, and maybe on each financial transaction the funding will be fine. Have no fear. In fact with that we could cut the payroll tax on everyone who makes less than $50k per year.
In addition we can means test the distribution. No reason for the 1% to collect a govt check right?
There problem solved
Well, there are a lot of things they could probably do; and they'll have to do some of them, including, no doubt, some of the things you mention. The real point is that 1) they have to stop raiding Social Security money for other purposes and to hide the size of the deficit. Both parties have been doing this for decades. 2) They have to stop the fantasy land/fraudulent accounting methods, and start using real, legitimate accounting and actuarial practices to track the money.
If they don't change these things, the rest doesn't matter. If they raise taxes and continue to do things the way they have been, there'd simply be more money there for them to steal from Social Security.
Then we print more money from thin air!!
It's the American way.
Well, you're certainly right about that. And I'm afraid that they're going to take it right to the brink and then do just exactly that. It's the oldest trick in the book for governments that have spent themselves into a corner and don't want to bite the bullet and enact real reform.
Then all of us millionaires can sit around and light our cigars with our million dollar bills, 'cause that's all they'll be good for.
I don't smoke cigars and I don't hv million dollar bills.
Guess I'll use paper and grow my own smokables. It's all I will be able to afford.
If they solve their budget problems by printing funny money you'll have plenty of million dollar bills. So will everybody else. They did that in Zimbabwe a few years ago and I have a collection of Zimbabwe hundred billion and hundred trillion dollar bills left over from the mess. They're so worthless that wiping your ass with a hundred trillion dollar banknote is actually cheaper than using toilet paper. So if you don't smoke, at least you can use 'em for toilet paper.
Oh boy you think we're gonna turn out like that? What can we do to prevent it.?
What did Zimbabwe do? Or are they still screwed up.
Zimbabwe is still so fucked up it ain't even funny. The currency has totally collapsed so it's either barter or foreign currency for economic transactions.
I hope they don't go that road here; but if the total government deficit gets too big, or if investors start balking at buying treasury securities, it's awfully tempting to just solve the whole problem by turning on the printing presses and paying everybody off in worthless money. If Greece leave the Euro, they'll do the same thing. It's been done many times by many governments.
When you do it, you wind up fucking everybody, most especially people like pensioners and others on fixed incomes, because those pensions instantly become worthless, but that's the tradeoff -- the government solves its own debt and budget problem by screwing everybody else and making them pick up the tab.
Will they do it here? I dunno. But I certainly don't trust them not to; and if they let things go long enough, they might not have a lot of other choices, And some of them are certainly stupid enough and cynical enough to do it, regardless of who gets screwed -- they'll make sure to protect their own backers.
So what can we do?
What's the plan? You sound very knowledgable on it, you must have a strategy.
The first thing you need is political leadership with the courage to tell everybody the party's over; and the courage to actually do something about it. And most importantly, the courage to take the heat from the many special interest groups who will oppose any meaningful reform, and who will trash any politician who tries. This is what's been missing in the past. Pols use government benefits as a vote-buying tool and having done so, they're scared of confronting special interests.
Beyond that, it's math. Taxes have to go up or benefits have to go down, or some combination of both has to happen. The only question is who and where, so the things you mentioned are certainly on the table. But realistically, taxes probably can't go down for anyone, purely as a matter of arithmetic. You can raise taxes on the wealthy, and will probably have to, but there just aren't enough of them to fully solve the government's debt problems. If you taxed the income of the top 1% at a 100% rate, it wouldn't balance the federal budget right now, much less when the full social security bill come due. Countries like Denmark that have really good social welfare systems that are also solvent have very high tax rates, even for low income people.
What you're probably realistically looking at is elimination of most or all tax breaks, including middle class tax breaks (like it or not, that's where the money is), higher taxes for everybody, substantially higher taxes on the wealthy, and benefits indexed to wealth or assets (essentially, means testing). Then, you've got to find a politician with the balls to go out and actually do it. Lotsa luck on that.
Well in regards to pols having the balls to face special interests I think of all the spcl interests who contribute to campaigns so I say to help the pols grow a bigger set we MUST:
In regards to balancing the budget: I read the wealthy 1% plutocrats who destroyed the world economy is hoarding $32Trill off shore to avoid paying taxes:
Tax them up the ass. They certainly ain't usin' that money (they got from our hard work) to create jobs. So you may claim the arithmetic just shows the wealthy tax increases won't do it". Well how about we try it? See how it goes.
Tax the middle class???? Cut middle class deductions????? Whaaaaat??? NO! We have already paid ebough. We have already sacrificed for the 1% mistakes. They are livin fat and large. We have struggled, and suffered. NO!! 1st we try taxing those greedy, selfish, reckless, irresponsible, lazy, carried interest livin, cap gains suckin, tax evading pieces of sh*t!!! !st.
How's dat?. You like that plan?
Tax the middle class. cut middle class deductions. What a f*ckin joke.
Do the math. You can go to the IRS website and get detailed statistics on income, tax rates and virtually everything else about government revenue. Build yourself a spreadsheet and play with the numbers. The real numbers, not the invented numbers that get thrown around so much. Then look at the places with extensive, well-run social welfare systems that are solvent, and study the tax rates there. They are very, very high, for everybody.
Then get real about a few things. Every pension plan in the country is absolutely dependent upon corporate profits to pay out benefits. Kill off corporate profits with confiscatory taxation and you kill the ROI for all of those pension plans, and with it, their ability to pay pensions. What do you do about that? Do you wanna be the guy that tells the United Auto Workers or the California Public Employees Retirement Association that all their pension investments are worthless, but it's okay because we finally screwed those big corporations?
Beyond that, politicians and leftists never account for the fact that large changes to tax law change people's behavior; so proposed tax schemes never take in the money that was envisioned. Tax somebody's income at 95% and see how much you get: You'll be getting 95% of nothing, because they'll simply work a lot less, or move to another country where you can't tax them or do something else to solve the problem. You may not like it that they do any of those things, but that's irrelevant. They will.
These are just a few of the issues you'd have to deal with. It sounds great to solve the whole mess by just taxing the shit out of a few people, but that's just talk. It won't solve the problem, because you can't make the math work when you deal with the real numbers and real people.
I'm not sneering at you. And I'm certainly not calling you any names. I did state that you presented a great defenseof the wealthy. And so you did.
We disagree.
Peace, & Good luck in all your GOOD efforts.
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Here is my previous response which applies again. You do not have to respond. But please be aware that you made the claim the I called you names. I did not. Perhaps you confused me with someone else. In any event you do not have to respond.
You have offered great reasons why we shouldn't tax the people with the money. And earlier you did suggest we get it from the 99% without the money.
So that's fine. That's your opinion. I disagree. Pensions have already been raided and destroyed by low taxed corps. I believe corps make money based on demand, not the tax rate. That makes no sense.
They don't wanna do business here? Here? This is the greatest middle class market on the planet. Fine! They can sell their plastic crap to Ecuador or Tanzania. Whatta joke.
Really, you offer a great defense of these obscenely wealthy criminals. But I think it is worth a try to get a hold of some of that $32 trill they got hidden away to evade paying their fair share of taxes.
Thanks & Good luck to you in all your GOOD efforts.
Oh, sure, you're insulting me and you know it. Around here, accusing someone of being an apologist for the rich is the standard formula insult and you know it well. If memory serves me correctly, you're accused of that from time to time yourself, so you know exactly what I mean.
But all that begs the question. Trying to solve the government's fiscal problems by confiscatory taxation of corporations and a small percentage of the population, whatever its virtues, has some downstream consequences that you can't just ignore. So if that's your solution and you're serious, you have to be prepared to deal with those consequences. I merely pointed out a few of them. Sneering at me when I point them out isn't dealing with them, it's avoiding them. And that's not a recipe for meaningful change.
You have offered great reasons why we shouldn't tax the people with the money. And earlier you did suggest we get it from the 99% without the money.
So that's fine. That's your opinion. I disagree. Pensions have already been raided and destroyed by low taxed corps. I believe corps make money based on demand, not the tax rate. That makes no sense.
They don't wanna do business here? Here? This is the greatest middle class market on the planet. Fine! They can sell their plastic crap to Ecuador or Tanzania. Whatta joke.
Really, you offer a great defense of these obscenely wealthy criminals. But I think it is worth a try to get a hold of some of that $32 trill they got hidden away to evade paying their fair share of taxes.
Thanks & Good luck to you in all your GOOD efforts.
I never suggested that they not tax the rich, I only pointed out that as a matter of pure arithmetic, you can't solve the U.S. government's money problems by doing so. There just aren't enough of them. You may not like that, but you can't just wish it away, or make it go away by insulting me.
Now, let's talk about that supposed $32 trillion in hidden money. The guy that came up with that number admitted in writing that he had no factual basis for it at all -- no facts, no statistics, no anecdotes, no nothing. It's invented, pure and simple. And he's not even an economist, so its not even an expert guess, it's just some guy pulling a number out of the air. And worse, he invented it in support of his own arguments, so it's a pure guess, by somebody with no expertise, created for the sole purpose of supporting his own arguments. But he then treated it as though it were a fact, so lots of other people picked it up and did so too. I think I hardly need point out that using such a number as the basis for public policy would be silly.
Beyond that, even if that 32 trillion or some part of it exists somewhere, since that guy has no facts to back up his assertion, he can't point to an actual person or company anywhere that's got it; which means that there's not anybody to actually send a tax bill to. I think you'll agree with me that if you want to send somebody a tax bill, you've at least got to point to some actual, real income they haven't paid taxes on. That's a real problem with imaginary numbers.
Beyond that, virtually every country in the world taxes big companies and rich people aggressively, because they have money. So money that is parked in another country is almost certainly being taxed there. And, the United States already taxes the entire worldwide income of US citizens, so to the extent they have money overseas, they can't legally avoid paying taxes on it right now. And the IRS aggressively pursues tax cheats who try to hide money overseas, and just succeeded in shutting down the whole Swiss bank account thing. The bottom line of all of this is that there just isn't enough money there to balance the budget. Even if they collect every dime of tax owed on overseas income, even if Obama gets his tax increase on the rich, it's a drop in the bucket. It's not a game-changer.
Now let's think about corporate taxes. The nominal US rate is 35%, which is the highest corporate tax rate in the world. Not everybody pays it of course, but many do, and that's why they have foreign subsidiaries. Their profits in those countries are already taxed there. If they ran it though their US organizations, they'd be taxed there and here also. If you want to see how that works, go get a job in Denmark for a couple of years and declare the money to everybody the way you're supposed to. The Danes will get you for 65% or 70% of your income, the US government will get you for another 20% or 25% and your state and locality maybe another 5% or 6%. There certainly won't be much left for you, that's for sure. Crazy, you say? You'd probably never do that, right? It's just not worth it. Well guess what, it isn't worth it to anybody else either. That's why big companies keep their foreign profits in foreign subsidiaries.
Here are some other things to think about when you talk about corporate taxes. I mentioned retirement funds. Kill corporate profits and you kill their ability to pay out pensions. You may not like that fact, but a fact it is, and insulting me isn't a substitute for proposing a real solution. So let's talk about who else might be affected:
Anybody with an IRS or 401(k) plan. They too have all or most of their money invested in corporate stocks and commercial paper, and as go corporate profits and growth, so go their IRA's and 401(k)'s.
Employees and potential employees. Next year's raises, benefits and bonuses are paid for with this year's profits. If you have no money in the bank because you made no profits, there's no money for these things. Likewise, hiring. New employees are paid for with the money you already have in the bank. No money in the bank for salaries, no new employees. Of course, not all businesses pay bonuses and benefits, but many do (including, ironically enough, the big banks and pharma companies you guys hate so much, but who are often very good employers), but they can only do so when they're making money. When they lose money, all those things stop because they have to -- there's no money for them. Trust me, companies that are losing money don't give raises, don't pay bonuses and don't hire people.
Non-profits and the people they serve. The local food bank or United Way certainly appreciates your five bucks, but don't kid yourself. They probably get most of their funding from a handful of big corporations that write them 6 or 7 figure checks every year. That money comes from the profits of those corporations, with the additional encouragement that the company doesn't have to pay federal income tax on the money they donate. Eliminate the profit, and the money for the donation simply isn't there. Eliminate the tax break, and you've just provided a further disincentive to come up with some money. So that means that the people who depend on the local food bank to eat, or the neighborhood clinic for health care are the ones who take the hit.
Now, let's talk for a second about taxing rich folks. I'm not rich, so I have no skin in the game and really don't care how much they're taxed. But, depending on taxes from a small percentage of the population has its issues. The first one I mentioned, tax avoidance behavior, is one, and the fact that there just aren't enough of them to balance the budget is another, but there are others. You're from New York City, I believe, so here's an example you might appreciate:
NYC has a very progressive tax system, so prior to the financial meltdown, very nearly half of the income taxes being paid were paid by 40,000 people out of a population of 12 million. Sounds great if you're not in that 40,000. But with the meltdown, a large percentage of those 40,000 jobs disappeared, and with them the tax revenue they generated. That alone created major money problems for the city. There may be some satisfaction in the thought that some snotty twenty-something wall street high roller lost his job, but that satisfaction doesn't pay the bills or replace the large chunk of money he was paying in taxes every year. More generally, a very narrow tax base is an issue, because the narrower the tax base, the more volatile and uncertain it is. And when you get to very high incomes, they are very volatile. Rich investors make a lot of money overall, but it's a roller coaster -- this year they lose a ton of money, next year they make two tons. Great for your tax collections in the good times, not so good in the bad times.
Now, you may not like reading any of this, but that's how it all works. And getting on your high horse and calling me names doesn't change any of it. Like it or not, if your solution is to concentrate your taxation on big corporations and a few wealthy people, you have to be prepared to deal with these very real downstream consequences, and many others, or just let all of these other people take a screwing because you didn't think through the consequences of your own policies. So beyond insulting me, what's your plan?
dems and libs are the problem
That's only because we don't watch FLAKESnews, or listen to flakes like Limbaugh.
It's a false appearance.
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Both parties are the problem. During Reagan's presidency, he ran up huge deficits building up the military. And Dubya Bush certainly wasn't terribly fiscally responsible either. Both parties hand out money like candy, without any plan to pay for it. They just have different people they hand it out to.
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Sure, Ryan is a terrible crony capitalist tyrant. He voted for the NDAA, The auto bailouts, the bank bailouts, tarp, medicare D. He'd send any American to a death camp if it would fund his political career.. so what.
There is no choice in national politics. Obama signed the NDAA, and kills American citizens with drone attacks with the authority in his own mind. Meeeehhh. When you have a choice between shit and shit to eat, you don't eat.
and SS is a ponzi scheme. Any financial scheme that is dependent on ever increasing inflows at a greater rate than the outflows or it collapses, is exactly that.
If you want to get fired up and run a flag up the hill, focus on the protests against the bankers, and the cronyism, and focus on local politics, instituting candidates that will stand up to the federal gov black bagging citizens, the corrupt bankers, monetary system and sending citizens and any person trying to defend their homeland to some fuckall place to be tortured to death.
You hit the nail on the head.
"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation."
"Social Security taxes are paid into the Social Security Trust Fund maintained by the U.S. Treasury (technically, the "Federal Old-Age and Survivors Insurance Trust Fund", as established by 42 U.S.C. § 401(a)). Current year expenses are paid from current Social Security tax revenues."
In other related news!!!! Obama wants to transform the US into his own socialist regime and send us back to the stone age
SS is a ponzi scheme...if i told you that i was going to start a retirement program and take part of your paycheck for your entire life and not allow you access to the money at all to watch it grow because i was actually spending it behind your back...u'd think that was pretty jacked up.
The Repugnicans say the thirty somethings, who pay in, don't really really expect to get SS, so what little they do get they should be happy for. Self fulfilling prophecy,
Don't you think?
Come Together NOW