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Forum Post: Of course the real problem is crazy people with guns

Posted 4 years ago on Sept. 19, 2013, 4:42 p.m. EST by bensdad (8977)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

they call themselves "the nra"

89 Comments

89 Comments


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[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33633) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

That asshole:

" Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel called Tuesday for a three-year minimum prison sentence for illegally carrying a gun as authorities brought attempted-murder charges against four men in one of the latest gang-related shootings that have plagued parts of the city. "

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 4 years ago

I have lots of problems with Rahm. This isn't one of them.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33633) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

Just for illegally carrying. How about only if it is found that the weapon had been used in the commission of a crime? At least. Or an automatic 10 years added onto any sentence for commission of a crime with a gun?

But just carrying?

Anyway 3 years just for carrying - is he planning on building more lock-up facilities? Or will this just be a revolving door issue? No space - hit the streets - and don't you never do that again - shame on you.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 4 years ago

McCarthy said Champ had been convicted of unlawful use of a weapon by a felon in 2012 and was sentenced to "boot camp" at the Cook County Department of Corrections instead of jail time.

"That is unacceptable," McCarthy said. "He received boot camp for that gun crime and was back out on the streets to be a part of this senseless shooting."


See the above portion? See the 3 year old's face?

Once upon a time I wanted to buy the world a Coke. Now, I want to take the Coke bottle and shove it up their asses.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33633) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

I agree that there has got to be real punishment for gun crime - I just see this 3 year mandatory sentencing thing for illegal carrying as going to backfire.

Anyway:

Will they do stop and frisk to implement it? Gunpowder sniffing dogs?

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 4 years ago

Well, here is the point, what was the kids prior charge? Champ had been convicted of unlawful use of a weapon by a felon in 2012

He was a felon and then was convicted of unlawful use of a weapon by a felon AND he was .................sentenced to boot camp.

I don't think that he needs a hug. Maybe it's me.

Now, there was a time to sit at the table and talk. However, we couldn't do that because a bunch of paid to post shills had to spend their time distorting the shit. So, maybe it's time they or the rest of society gets a clue.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33633) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

OK the law on the books - " unlawful use of a weapon by a felon in 2012 " - what is the sentencing guideline for that?

Consider also that it was for use - not carrying - use.

And do you honestly think that when the prisons get over crowded ( like always ) that these felons will not be of the 1st to be put back on the streets?

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 4 years ago

D......the guy was a felon and then got popped again with unlawful use of a weapon by a felon.

Do you think people are carrying illegal guns .......for lawful purposes?

"Police allege that Tabari Young, 22, opened fire with a military-grade weapon as he and a companion sped by Cornell Square Park on the city's southwest side. Young and three others -- Brad Jett, 22; Bryon Champ, 21; and Kewane Gatewood, 20 -- were charged with attempted murder and aggravated battery with a firearm. They were being held without bond.

Police said Champ was the second gunman in the car, Gatewood supplied the rifle and Jett served as a lookout."

And do you honestly think that when the prisons get over crowded ( like always ) that these felons will not be of the 1st to be put back on the streets?

And therefore, do nothing?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33633) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

EDIT: We don't need more laws just proper enforcement of the law - like on criminal banksters that destroy the economy.

No GF I do not think that people ( most ) are carrying illegal guns for legal reasons.

And prior history should also be considered.

That being said.

There already being stiff penalties on the books - obviously not being carried out.

What makes one think that a new law - that takes no account for an individuals background ( possibility of no prior criminal history ) - what makes one think that this would do anything more than add to or newly create a criminal background?

Why would this new law be enforced any better than existing law?

And therefore, do nothing?

No - enforce the laws on the books - stop the revolving door of overcrowding. Make sentences be served.

But to turn the tide - society must be healed. Every job must pay at the very least - A Minimum LIVING Wage.

By putting decent living back on the table - society does not feed the needless growth of crime.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 4 years ago

Mom, they shot me. And he pointed to his face like they shot me right here in my face. I’m like but you ok? He like yeah I’m ok.” Leggett said she asked Deonta if he wanted to back to the park and the boy replied. “No mom, I don’t want to go back to that park. He thinks he’s going to get shot in the park. That’s all he keeps saying is he’s going to get shot in the park. I don’t want to go back to the park. That man, he was in the park with a gun.”

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/09/25/mom-child-wounded-in-mass-shooting-recovering-but-afraid/

It's about sentencing.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33633) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

It's about sentencing & enforcement of that sentence and it is about having a world where people have an opportunity to make a LIVING WAGE at the very least a LIVING WAGE.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 4 years ago

D............. the following: and it is about having a world where people have an opportunity to make a LIVING WAGE at the very least a LIVING WAGE.

isn't going to pay the medical bills for this child or the other 12 individuals. It isn't going to provide psych care for this child or the other 12 individuals and their families if necessary. Now, apparently that living wage thing is going to take a minute. Between now and then........get these assholes off the street. Get the guns off the street.

[-] 1 points by IrishRevolt (5) 4 years ago

Real men have permits? Can this nation get anymore insecure with itself?

"But just as previously stated, putting them in prison isnt going to pay the medical bills of them. Its not going to provide psych care.

Reactionary thinking is punishment. Proactive solutions that attempt to create a better more harmonious life, if there was a strong push for that we would see immediate improvements."

At some point it has to stop being reactionary and start getting serious about creating a humane life for all. Our prison system is out of control, its an absolute failure of solving the problem.

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[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 4 years ago

Try again. That isn't what I said. Start with that.

Specifically the following: "But just as previously stated, putting them in prison isnt going to pay the medical bills of them. Its not going to provide psych care.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Not even close.

[-] 1 points by IrishRevolt (5) 4 years ago

"D..........it was supposed to take awhile a few decades before."

I agree with this 100%, along with share the frustration. The only thing I can deter from it is that "they" simply dont want it.

Racism goes very very deep and very very far back in their elitist clubs. Slavery wasnt that far back in the scope of humanity.

[-] 1 points by IrishRevolt (5) 4 years ago

Pistol permits. You cant simply just have a gun, you have to get authorization from Albany to own it. If you dont, you are illegal. Many states are like this. A normal guy cannot own a pistol, even to only keep in their own home. They need to get permission.

People who are shooting and killing people arent deterred by sentencing of 2 years or 20 years. They dont care, because a future is not something to worry about. So then perhaps the goal is to simply remove them from the streets for as long as possible.

But just as previously stated, putting them in prison isnt going to pay the medical bills of them. Its not going to provide psych care.

Reactionary thinking is punishment. Proactive solutions that attempt to create a better more harmonious life, if there was a strong push for that we would see immediate improvements.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 4 years ago

Real men have permits. That's normal.

You can't back up what you are saying.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33633) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (20992) 8 minutes ago

D..........it was supposed to take awhile a few decades before.

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

I don't dispute that. We are just lucky. IMO. That they got impatient with their program.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 4 years ago

No, the time to pontificate was before. But, this current direction and what is taking place needs to be resolved immediately. Because if it isn't taken care of and the wrong group of people get in office then the law can go to the very extreme and at that point all the work towards the middle ground is going to be hard as hell to get back.

[-] 1 points by IrishRevolt (5) 4 years ago

Ok, so what else is there to do period?

I mean, crack and crank are more easy to find than someone selling alcohol to minors, and both of those are highly illegal - allegedly.

The violence is going to come out some way, it always does. The history of violence in this country, from its founding to its current form, are not easy problems to solve. We cannot rewrite history, so thats not an option. So going forward there has to be big radical thinking to get even the smallest changes perhaps.

How does a central planner install community spirit into a community? Community service projects work well, but are few and far in between that get people really motivated to carry it out further.

Its already illegal to own most handguns as a normal citizen. IT seems the worse the country gets, the more we simply stuff people in cages, the worse it gets, etc etc etc.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 4 years ago

Again. It's about sentencing. All of what you have listed is not relevant.

And this Its already illegal to own most handguns as a normal citizen. is a statement that you will need to back up.

[-] 1 points by IrishRevolt (5) 4 years ago

What else is there to do besides make them illegal?

"these assholes" are raised a bit different than most of suburbia who writes the laws.

We already have the highest prison population on the planet. If more jail was the answer, we would be the safest nation on the planet.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 4 years ago

What else is there to do besides make them illegal?


That ceased to be a legit argument when the second amendment became fully incorporated in 2010.

[-] -2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 4 years ago

cyber punk anyone ?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33633) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

Took a few decades of declining prosperity to put em out there on the street - I suppose it will take a while of good societal health to remove em as well.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 4 years ago

D..........it was supposed to take awhile a few decades before.

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[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 4 years ago

I would say that the vast majority of shootings are not about mental illness. On the other hand, these fuckers are crazy.

But, ya.......it is free market capitalism...........On the Streets of Laredo

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[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 4 years ago

Ok. Now explain that to the kids that are afraid to go to the park.

[-] 0 points by IrishRevolt (5) 4 years ago

A sense of community leads to social interactions, and the more social a group the more inclined towards helping each other, hence that word socialism.

When there is no social, there is no socialism.

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[-] -1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 4 years ago

I'm not a fan of mandatory sentencing

does the mayor or his gang members own stock in private prisons ?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33633) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

Good question. Who owns interest in the success of For Profit Prisons?

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 4 years ago

GUNS – Facts & numbers & opinion & solution


FACTS: There is little difference between a gun owner and a gun buyer
There is no difference between a gun owned and a gun bought
The constitution does give some people the right to “bear some arms”
More Americans ( in absolute numbers & per capita ) are killed by guns than in ……almost any other country ( USA 11,000+; England 35 )
Almost no hunters hunt with semi-automatic weapons

“Assault weapon” is a term well defined in law but not well understood
Legislatures & courts ( including SCOTUS ) have set numerous limits on the
…….2nd amendment’s right to “bear arms”
Just like legislatures & courts ( including SCOTUS ) have set numerous limits
…..on the 1st amendment’s right to “free speech” [ no “fire in a crowded theatre” ]

You can buy a revolver “arm” but not a grenade launcher “arm”
A 9 year old cannot buy a shotgun “arm”
Australia & England both passed strict new gun control laws –
………and drastically cut their gun deaths
The nra uses its members to sell guns for the gun manufacturers


It is illegal to drive an un-registered car
It is illegal to drive if you are un-licensed
It is illegal to drive an un-insured car


The 1994 “assault weapons ban” did not work because it did NOT ban assault weapons – it only banned their sale or manufacture.


OPINIONS

The real problem never discussed:
It is not the gun sellers or
the gun buyers –
or even the guns –
it is the gun OWNERS

I would divide most gun deaths into five categories:

the Sandy Hook mass murderers,
drug related street crime,
non-drug related street crime,
“personal” crimes of anger,
suicide.
Consider each one - all would be reduced if we reduced the number of guns
( and legalized drugs ). The complex, conflicting state laws and the huge number of guns owned by Americans …..makes confiscation ( that no one is advocating ) totally unfeasible

We need a uniform federal gun law
The “mental health” issue is an nra stall – unless they agree that everyone who OWNS …….a gun must be psychoanalyzed and certified “safe to own guns”.
The nra’s “American culture is different” is another stall – most countries have ……hunters, violent movies, citizen owned guns, violent video games, drugs.

Background checks & closing the gun show loophole will help –
but ONLY with new sales –
it does nothing about OWNERS – and there are 100,000,000 of them. If just 1/10 of 1% of them are crazy, that’s 10,000 crazy gun OWNERS!


SOLUTION: Based on reducing guns, not confiscation

1►
learn as much as you can about the numbers that prove what the solutions are
support the good guys
http://action.americansforresponsiblesolutions.org

2►
demand a plan:

http://www.youtube.com/user/maigcoalition

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Za8SOVuGHs&list=UUu4Q7iE0z1Jw7yUjs56dvXA&index=1

alex jones – without his straight jacket!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XZvMwcluEg&feature=endscreen&NR=1

multi-millionaire gun manufacturer shill wayne lapierre who works for koch brothers & gets paid over $1,000,000 / year
to lie & delude his army of lemmings to keep buying guns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dar6K2STVVQ

3►
DO: WRITE CONGRESS:

find your congresspeople

house:
http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/
senate:
http://www.senate.gov/reference/common/faq/How_to_contact_senators.htm
VP Joe Biden, Gun Panel, 1600 Pennsylvania Av, Washington DC 20006


╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬═╬


Dear ............................:

[ Y.O.U.R...I.N.T.R.O...H.E.R.E ]

While some people may want to confiscate guns, I don’t.
Here is a much more feasible approach.
It will not solve all gun problems, but it will
reduce the number of guns
and that will reduce the number of dangerous people who have access to guns -
and isn't THAT our real goal?

My proposal - for a NATIONAL gun law for all guns & owners:
My four points are SIMPLY based on seeing a logical parallel between cars & guns.

Please consider advocating these four steps below to help America with our 11,000+++ gun disasters:


1►
all gun owners must be licensed & tested with all guns they own and pass a written test.

If you own a motor cycle, a dump truck, and a car - you are tested in each.
Require a written gun test - to guarantee the owner's understanding of gun laws
thus being forced to know the law - via the test – also means the police know who you are -
and you may be less likely to commit a crime or be careless when storing your guns

2►
every year, you must prove that you have gun liability insurance &
be background checked and prove that your gun is properly locked when not used.

Insurance should be at least as high as car insurance [ I would like at least $1,000,000 ]
You must prove your car insurance.
Require an annual back ground check ( with fee ) to verify your suitability to own guns.
Every gun must be locked in a gun case or have a trigger lock.

3►
as the owner of a gun, you are legally responsible for what is done with it.

You are required to report if your gun is missing within 48 hours,
The owner will be much less likely to leave a gun accessible to a family member or thief.

4►
every gun must be registered and tested & a sample fired bullet stored by the police

Knowing that your gun & its bullets are so easily traced will make you think before using it.

additionally -

Over ten bullet magazines are illegal to own { 2nd amendment has no relevance }

Gun fees [ licenses fees & registration fees & fines ] should be
high enough to create a very substantial gun buy-back program ($100-$500 / year)

Penalties must be very high in money ( equal to ten years fees ) & jail time -
especially after the first offense

No citizens ( except dealers & collectors ) need more than a small number of guns

Gun fees should be higher for more guns & for bigger guns.

But the nra may be in favor of this when the gun companies understand that gun owners
can get paid to turn in their old gun and will be able to buy a new gun -
with an INTEGRATED lock .

If we legalize drugs, we will clear out jail cells to fill with gun law breakers and
free up police "time" for real crime investigation

We WILL get higher compliance and lower opposition if we use high fees & buyback.

Take a position of reducing guns, like assault weapons such as semi-automatic rifles -
rather than punishing a gun nut who spent $10,000 on an armory.

LBJ proposed a gun plan similar to the above 4 point plan


Some real 2011 / 2012 gun statistics:

Americans own almost half of all civilian owned guns in the world.
Per 100,000:
America:.. 88,880 guns owned ; 2.97 homicides
England.…: 6,200 guns owned ; 0.07 homicides
Austrailia: 15,000 guns owned ; 0.14 homicides
Canada…: 30,800 guns owned ; 0.51 homicides
France….: 31,000 guns owned ; 0.06 homicides
Japan……..: 1,000 guns owned ; 0.08 homicides
Israel……..: 7,300 guns owned ; 0.90 homicides


http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/period-ending-march-2012/rft-annual-trend-and-demographic-tables-2011-12.xls
The above link is to England police statistics - see table D19

The nra & its trolls are claiming that we will fail, where England & Australia succeeded in reducing gun deaths substantially by legislation.


Statistics clearly prove that the number of guns in a state or in a country
adds to the risk of homicides.

More complex is the effect of gun laws and restrictions.

When Australia had a massacre in 1996 when 35 people were killed,
gun laws were substantially strengthened and a major buy-back was instituted.
There has not been an incident in Australia since then.
Of course, they did not have the benefit of the nra.

In 2011, there were 11,000+ gun homicides in America
In 2011, there were 35 gun deaths in England

For 2011, the average Murder Rate in Death Penalty States was 4.7,
while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.1

For 2011, the murder rates were highest in red state regions:
Per 100,000: South 5.5 Midwest 4.5 West 4.2 Northeast 3.9

VERY IMPORTANT:
▬► The 1994 gun "ban" did NOT ban assault weapons.
▬►It banned the MANUFACTURE & SALE of assault weapons.
▬►For $300 you can buy a legal accessory to make an AR15 fully automatic (800rpm)

Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia said that there are "undoubtedly" limits to a person's right to bear arms under the Second Amendment, but that future court cases will have to decide where to draw the line. That line could be between you and an AR15.


And of course if we stopped money going from advocacy groups & corporations to buy politicians, this would be a very big step in the right direction
Watch our videos: Hedges, Kucinich, Warren, Chomsky , Sanders ,
Romney, Reich, Hartmann, Maddow, Nader, Feingold, Jefferson
And read our analysis of Corporate Personhood & Citizens United & evaluate the national polls that prove the truth. See the new HJR29


……………….http://corporaionsarenotpeople.webuda.com

[-] 2 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 4 years ago

It's Class War.

What better warfare than to have the enemy shoot each other?

We're losing, wake up.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 4 years ago

'More Americans lost their lives from firearms in the past 45 years than in all wars involving the US.'

[-] 1 points by Shule (2638) 4 years ago

Its the video games we let our kiddies play. The 1% make violent video games to turn our kiddies into warmongering psychos that will kill to help them with their designs for making wars all over the world. And so many parents out there fall for the ruse.

Parents, keep supporting wars and warmongering nations overseas, and you'll keep on seeing mass shootings; maybe next time at your local high school.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 4 years ago

violent video games are played as much in England & Japan
do you know what their annual murder rate is ?

[-] 1 points by Shule (2638) 4 years ago

To my understanding the correlation between violence and video games is well documented. Supposedly the contribution to violence by video games in Japan has also been documented as well: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081103180252.htm

We must keep in mind that Japan in many other ways is a very disciplined and regulated society. Japan has very strong gun control laws. With few exceptions people are not allowed to carry guns in Japan. So the Video game/shooter sequence does not exist as it does in the U.S..

As to England, my understanding is that extremely violent video games are banned England, and that regulations exist restricting people under 18 from playing certain games deemed to potentially cause violent behavior.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 4 years ago

How many of America's mass murderers are under 18?
Don't we restrict under 18 people from buying "AO" rated games?
Can a 16 year old buy a gun?
Can a 10 year old buy a gun?
Can a parent teach a 7 year old to shoot an AR15?

Gun deaths in England = 35 per year
Gun deaths in America = 11,000 per year

There are lots of reasons "iffy" people go over the edge and do crazy things.

The biggest source of this kind of violence
is & has been religion
Shall we ask Richard Dawkins about his solution ?

[-] 0 points by Shule (2638) 4 years ago

So what does Richard Dawkins have to say?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

Curse you Legend of Zelda!!!

Somehow or another, this whole narrative misses the simple fact that "war toys" have been with us for millenia, across ages and cultures.

It's a reflection, not the cause.

[-] 1 points by Shule (2638) 4 years ago

Yes war toys have been with us for millennia, and consequently so have been wars.

I must admit blaming it simply on some toys, is over-simplistic; what I'm referring to is the war culture which among other things is precipitated by war-toys; video games being the most recent and sophisticated manifestation.

Good read on the subject is a book "On Killing" by ret Lt Col Grossman. He also has a web site also worth checking out.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

Ted Nugent.

[-] 1 points by Shule (2638) 4 years ago

Yeh, ....

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33633) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

But it is also a reinforce-r of acceptable behavior - War ( for profit ).

Sorry - just sayin - there are more elements involved then JUST mental illness and easy access to guns.

I still feel the major contributor to gun violence - is - the continuing decline of the poor the lower class and the middle class. Poverty with no option for a way out for the majority = Crime Violence Death

There is of course the insufficient background checks.

But also the lack of proper health care for ordinary citizens and for returning Veterans. Health care should provide a warning or a denial for certain individuals with severe mental health issues - to not have a gun - to not be able to purchase a gun.

Alcoholics have their license tagged - that information comes up when a driver is pulled over.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the video game/music connection to these things, at least as a driving force.

As to alcoholism? I've suggested a card be issued for it's purchase, and if you're a repeat offender?

You can't buy it.

[-] -2 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 4 years ago

then ~ than!

Come on people!!!

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33633) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago
[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 4 years ago

It is not Rs hypocrisy
it is money going to Washington
it is crapitalism owning democracy
guns
military
farms
prisons
taxes
education
JOBS


congress does exactly that it is paid to do
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com

[-] 0 points by rfinva2013 (0) 4 years ago

When the population behaves itself there is little need to be armed. When anarchy is seen and the protection infrastructure fails to show up, the use of a personal protection weapon beats the heck out of being assaulted and possibly killed. Many seem to think the world is all sweetness and light but unfortunately there are those who have been brought up to be indifferent to the rights of others and they would be the first to deny you of your right to liberty and life.

Mental illness is a real issue with regard to gun ownership. If you review the most horrid events like Columbine, Aurora, Sandy Hook and the Navy Yard you can see what mental instability can create. Gun show clearances need to be enhanced to include more than felony screening by the FBI and State police. There needs to be better reporting on individuals who are being treated for unstable behavior to be sure they cannot buy a gun anywhere. Sellers are more than willing to support this and the government entities on the state and federal level need to support the effort as well. Maybe the central registry being created by the Affordable Care Act can allow those who are at risk to be flagged to state and federal level screening to stop the sales of weapons to potential killers.

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 4 years ago

All gun OWNERS need to be certified as sane & responsible by a mental care professional.

[-] 0 points by MyBrothersKeeper (-36) 4 years ago

The real problem is a culture of violence. Have a look on netflix and hulu, calculate a ratio of violent to non-violent movies. The problem is two fold on a sociological level. The conservatives perpetuate war and the liberals negate spirituality/religion which leads to nihilism. Between the two, we are globs of biology warring for territory. BIG PICTURE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkQ2Dbt0HfQ

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[-] 0 points by MyBrothersKeeper (-36) 4 years ago

So we don't live in a violent culture?

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[-] 0 points by MyBrothersKeeper (-36) 4 years ago

and if I am a conservative I respond:

nature is itself filled with brutish barbarity, human society is but a reflection of nature, and from this reflection the free market will profit

How do you get that? Conservatives believe in creationism and everything is God's will. Darwinism and Intelligent Design are incompatible, sir.

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[-] -1 points by MyBrothersKeeper (-36) 4 years ago

That would be true if they actually believed in laissez-faire capitalism. However, they do not. Actions/Words. Actions by the conservatives have been to rig the game. Zero deflationary policy, top down economic policy, anti-labor policies. These are not laissez-faire capitalism, but rather a tipping of the scales in favor of the wealthy. So no, by their actions they do not believe in Darwinism.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

Would that be the CATO version of "lassez faire" that you are referring to?

It would be prudent at this point out, that there is no such animal as a "free market".

It's an impossibility, and therefore a misnomer.

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[-] 0 points by MyBrothersKeeper (-36) 4 years ago

Talking to you gets me downvoted so I'm going to have to end our conversation. Have a good night.

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[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 4 years ago

Movies and violet video games are available in
America - 11,000 gun deaths
and
England - 35 gun deaths

[-] -2 points by MyBrothersKeeper (-36) 4 years ago

England, high levels of rape, assault, robbery. Cherry picked stats prove what? nothing. We live in a culture of violence, and now you help perpetuate a culture of ignorance. Congrats.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 4 years ago

generalizations with no specifics & accusing a poster sounds like you may have a touch of troll

[-] -2 points by MyBrothersKeeper (-36) 4 years ago

Surprise, someone disagrees with you so they are a troll. Are you on this forum for the sake of progress or your own self importance?

Michael Moore: It's the Guns - But We All Know, It's Not Really the Guns

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 4 years ago

If you honestly disagree, and are not a corporate/koch/nra troll, explain why you think England & Australia gun deaths dropped

[-] -1 points by MyBrothersKeeper (-36) 4 years ago

I would instead pose the same question posed in the article I linked to. Why does Canada have less gun violence while guns are prevalent in Canada? I'm sure reducing the number of guns reduces gun deaths. But I am also sure that it will not change domestic violence, gang violence, and in the US, maybe not even the murder rate. The US also has the largest illegal drug market of any country.

My problem with the argument of removing guns is that the argument among many ends there, and all other forms of violence in our country remains a side issue. I never said we don't need gun control, you and many other just read that into any statement about our violent culture. Free speech and advocating murder are not the same thing.

Our entertainment industry, for the most part, advocates both violence and murder. True the shows we watch are available in most other countries, but they don't have the same high ratings for violent movies and music. After all, Hollywood wouldn't make it if we didn't buy it. So I say again, it's our culture.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 4 years ago

OK: You're wrong!

Now: Go to the end of the line!

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 4 years ago

there is nothing wrong with fr coughlin...............................................today

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

Sometimes, of course, it's crazy people with a bully pulpit.

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 4 years ago

don't tell that to cruz - or wayne - or rush

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[-] 0 points by PrivateUnionyes (-6) 4 years ago

OK.

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[-] -1 points by highlander33 (-2) 4 years ago

Once more with the cartoons.

[-] -3 points by justaroach (-143) 4 years ago

New Rasmussen poll: Little traction for gun control

A new Rasmussen survey released this morning revealed that there is no traction for additional gun control laws, with only 33 percent of survey respondents believing that tougher gun laws might have prevented Monday’s mass shooting at the Washington Navy Yard.

This came almost simultaneously with an update from the Washington Department of Licensing that there are now more than 445,000 active state concealed pistol licenses, up more than 3,000 from when this column last checked the figures Aug. 19.

The Rasmussen Reports survey also noted that 71 percent of Americans believe it is not possible to completely prevent mass shootings while only 16 percent think it is. http://www.examiner.com/article/new-rasmussen-poll-little-traction-for-gun-control

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 4 years ago

I do believe in democracy, but you can get BAD results
adolph
slavery
islamic counties that stone adulterers & cut off thieve's hands

do you agree with the votes to restrict voting ? do you agree with the vote to cut food stamps ? do you agree with the oringinal prop 8 vote ?

Polls are useful - but do not create right and wrong
Check a June 1941 poll abo ut America getting into WW2

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 4 years ago

FACT CHECK: More Stacks Of Gun Facts

We've heard it too many times to count, from people all over America, that these kinds of things - mass shootings - won't ever happen in their hometown. As the team at Mother Jones has shown us previously, "these things" can happen almost anywhere - and they are happening more often, with 2013 ready to set another grim record for mass shootings.

We wish the facts didn't show that more than 50 mass shootings have occurred, just during the last four years. We've had so many mass shootings in the U.S., we've had to redefine the term. Reddit now keeps a running tab on just the mass shootings for each year.

Dr. Janis Orlowski of MedStar Washington Hospital, after the recent shootings in DC, may have said it best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RFsG3yV_kqs#t=48

As we noted recently, the availability of guns isn't the only factor in America's gun violence problem. It is the component that's been the most lied about though, often through the vast propaganda tools of the lobbying group that is the NRA.

So as a public service, we've collected and corrected some of the most common lies about guns, and provided the correct information, below.

Read more: http://www.randirhodes.com/articles/headlines-393046/fact-check-more-stacks-of-gun-11661625/#ixzz2fNitYK6f

[-] -3 points by justaroach (-143) 4 years ago

I can only assume you are a useful idiot for the uber 1%er Nanny B.

[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 4 years ago

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Do you have a TROLL problem?

here are some of its “tells” ►
attacking the poster - not the post
name calling rather than reasoning
using vulgarity in stead of sanity
ranting about a source rather than the facts
accusing the poster of being a ---------------
"re-interpreting" the post rather than quoting it ( ala faux noose )
using a gross generalization to “prove” a specific
lying [ often obviously ]
changing the subject
using mccarthyite accusations
afraid to answer questions


you could buy a mongoose or a roach motel, but here is a better way:
………………….THE TROLL solution ►
………………………………….IGNORE ANY POSTS FROM THE TROLL


[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

http://occupywallst.org/forum/of-alec-the-nra-and-big-money/

The reality is what makes YOU the useless idiot.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 4 years ago

IN DEPTH: The Five Components Of American Gun Violence Revisited

With yet another mass shooting happening, this time in Washington, DC at the Navy Yard, an official U.S. Navy installation, America has once again been thrown back into the national discussion surrounding guns and gun safety laws. The conversation is especially pertinent now, in the wake of the NRA's successful push to recall two Colorado state senators who helped to pass new gun safety laws this past year.

Sadly, it's only one of thousands of acts of gun violence in our nation annually. Counting Monday's events, sixty-eight acts of gun violence in the last thirty years have been mass shootings, killing four or more people. Fifteen of the twenty-five worst mass shootings in the world over the last fifty years took place in America, with - now - six of them happening since 2007.

It wasn't always this way, in America. But it has been for too long.

In fact, Randi and her staff initially identified the criteria below in the wake of the Connecticut disaster. After the events at Navy Yard, we've updated them again. But the question remains: Why the increase in mass shootings over the past decade, in situations where the shooters weren't actively involved in activities like drug deals or bank robberies? The facts to point five general reasons:

Ineffective Gun Safety Laws

No one is honestly suggesting we take all the guns away. But the statistics make it clear - the gun safety laws America currently has on the books don't work effectively. That shouldn't surprise anyone, since virtually every gun safety law we have in America was specifically tweaked by lobbyists for the benefit of gun manufacturers - not to keep gun users safe. We need better, more effective gun safety laws - something that about 85% of non-NRA gun owners agree and about 75% of NRA members agree with.

Sub-Optimal Mental Health Care System

Our mental health care system bears a great deal of responsibility for our culture of gun violence in America. While ObamaCare will be improving it greatly in the coming years, the fact is, it's been less than optimal for a long time. For a nation that is both the most heavily armed nation in the world and the most violent, poor mental health care is a primary causal factor for many kinds of violence, including gun violence.

Corrupt Lobbying And Political Finance System

As previously noted, three quarters of NRA members want more effective gun safety laws. Yet the primary lobbying organization for gun rights in America - the NRA - obviously doesn't care what their membership wants. As a lobbying organization, they've made it clear through their actions that their primary goal is to make millions of dollars a year to spend on political campaigns - not to make gun safety laws. Americans must reform the lobbying and political contribution laws, and get the money out of its prominent role, if we're going to solve the problem of gun violence in America.

Questionable Media Ethics ~ C.Todd: "Not our job..."

We glorify violence in our entertainment media, and run like cowards in dealing with it responsibly in our news media. Both kinds of media are in serious need of official ethical standards and practices. As members of the media, we must put getting it right above getting it first. That includes in the types of programs we broadcast, and the way we sell media content.

Poverty & Economic Inequality

While our economy is finally improving, we can't ignore the the toll the recession has taken on families over the past few years. It's a proven fact - income inequality is a factor in the increased number of murders we have. It's also true that the employment and income gap is now at the widest point it's been since the 1930s. We have parents who work three jobs, but they can barely keep a roof above the heads of their families, let alone parent well. Being able to earn a living wage - and give parents the time to guide their children properly - should be an American right, not an unreachable goal.

The facts are simple and clear. If we want gun violence to decrease in America, gun safety laws WILL have to get better. So will mental health care. So will our media ethics, and our political funding system, and our economy.

We can do better. It's long past time that we did.

Read more: http://www.randirhodes.com/articles/headlines-393046/in-depth-the-five-components-of-11657786/#ixzz2fNfJ25es

[+] -4 points by geovind (-56) 4 years ago

From USAtoday

Obama gun view out of step with public opinion: Column

And by out of the mainstream, I mean really out of the mainstream. According to a post-Sandy Hook Gallup poll, the NRA,with a 54% favorable rating, is actually more popular than President Obama. By contrast, Obama's most recent approval rating from Gallup was 48%. This is particularly striking given that the NRA has faced unrelentingly hostile treatment from most press and pundits, while President Obama has received treatment that is, to put it mildly, far more generous.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/01/22/gun-control-obama-nra/1851643/

[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 4 years ago

Is that why 80% of Americans wanted expanded background checks?

[+] -4 points by geovind (-56) 4 years ago

That actually isn't true. Also thought the claim was over 90%? When did it drop to 80?

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 4 years ago

thank you for asking - here is your answer
http://www.gallup.com/poll/162083/americans-wanted-gun-background-checks-pass-senate.aspx

April 83% January 91%

Trend: Next, suppose that on Election Day you could vote on key issues as well as candidates. Would you vote for or against a law that would -- require background checks for all gun purchases?

Regardless of whether one looks at the 91% or the 83% support level, it is clear that more Americans support the concept of a law expanding background checks for gun purchases than say the Senate should have passed such a law.

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