Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: northernomics & southernomics

Posted 10 years ago on June 5, 2013, 11:24 a.m. EST by bensdad (8977)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Southern Poverty Pimps
The ‘original sin’ of the Southern political class is cheap,
powerless labor
By MICHAEL LIND from the Progressive Populist

Contemporary American politics cannot be understood apart from the North-South divide in the US, as I and others have argued. Neither can contemporary American economic debates. The real choice facing America in the 21st century is the same one that faced it in the 19th and 20th centuries — Northernomics or Southernomics?

Northernomics is the high-road strategy of building a flourishing national economy by means of government-business cooperation and government investment in R&D, infrastructure and education.
Although this program of Hamiltonianism (named after Washington’s first Treasury secretary, Alexander Hamilton) has been championed by maverick Southerners as prominent as George Washington, Henry Clay and Abraham Lincoln (born in Kentucky to a Southern family), the building of a modern, high-tech, high-wage economy has been supported chiefly by political parties based in New England and the Midwest, from the Federalists and the Whigs through the Lincoln Republicans and today’s Northern Democrats.

Southernomics is radically different - it is a strategy of specializing in commodities and cheap labor is intended to enrich the Southern oligarchy. It doesn’t enrich the majority of Southerners, white, black or brown, but it is not intended to.
The purpose of the age-old economic development strategy of the Southern states has never been to allow them to compete with other states or countries on the basis of superior innovation or living standards. Instead, for generations Southern economic policymakers have sought to secure a lucrative second-tier role for the South in the national and world economies, as a supplier of commodities like cotton and oil and gas and a source of cheap labor for footloose corporations. Contrary to what is often said, the “original sin” of the South is not slavery, or even racism. It is cheap, powerless labor.

Before 1900, the cheap labor was used to harvest export crops like cotton and lumber. Beginning around 1900, Southern states sought to reap benefits from the new industrial economy by supplying national manufacturing companies with pools of cheap, powerless labor as well. For a century now, Southern state economic development policies have sought to lure companies from high-wage, high-service states, by promising low wages and docile workers. Texas Gov. Rick Perry’s recent appeals to California businesses to relocate to the Lone Star State are the most recent example.

The essence of the Southern economic model is not low taxation, but a lack of bargaining power by Southern workers of all races. Bargaining power at the bottom of the income scale is created by tight labor markets; unions; minimum wage laws combined with unemployment insurance; and social insurance, such as Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid - anathemas to southernomics.

Naturally, the 21st-century descendants of traitors Jefferson Davis and John C. Calhoun want to weaken everything that strengthens the ability of a Southern worker to say to a Southern employer: “Take this job and shove it!”

Tight labor markets are anathema to Southern employers. They want loose labor markets that create a buyer’s market in wage labor. That is why, at a time of mass unemployment among low-skilled workers in the US, most of the calls for expanding unskilled immigration in the form of “guest worker” programs are coming from Southern and Southwestern politicians. Guest workers — that is, indentured servants bound to a single employer and unable to quit — are the ideal workers, from a neo-Confederate perspective. They are cheap and unfree.

Needless to say, private sector unions that pool worker bargaining power are anathema to today’s suave metropolitan successors to the slave-owning plantocracy. The whole point of the Southern model of economic development is to create a non-union region from Virginia to Texas, to which companies can be induced to move from states with unionized workforces. Besides, unions engage in collective bargaining, in violation of the Southern ideal of employer-worker relations, in which the master gives orders and the fearful worker obeys without question.

A high national minimum wage also threatens the Southern conservative program for stealing jobs and industries from other states and other countries. Particularly if it is combined with generous unemployment insurance, a high minimum wage gives Southern workers the ability to turn down jobs that pay poorly — that is to say, the majority of jobs in the South, if the Southern elite has its way. While the Southern right opposes a higher federal minimum wage, it has no objection to increases in the minimum wage by Northern states, which thereby help the South lure more businesses.

Ruthless and callous as they are, the old families and nouveaux riches who make up the Southern elite don’t want their workers to starve. On the other hand, they prefer not to pay a wage adequate for the necessities of life. The solution favored by the Southern oligarchy is the earned income tax credit, a wage subsidy to workers that tops up a too-low wage paid by the employer.

The major champions of the EITC in national politics have tended to be conservative Democrats from the South, like the late Lloyd Bentsen, a reactionary born into the South Texas aristocracy, and Louisiana’s Sen. Russell Long. What makes the EITC so appealing to Southern Democrats and Southern Republicans alike is that it forces the Northern and Western states, by means of the Internal Revenue Service, to subsidize low-wage businesses in the South, even as the South is using the poverty of its workforce to lure high-wage businesses from the North and West. Every penny spent on the federal EITC is a penny that Southern state governments and Southern employers do not have to spend on Southern workers to keep them from starving. By paying taxes to the federal government to fund the EITC, Americans in high-wage states are literally subsidizing the South’s job-stealing program. The progressive policy wonks who prefer a higher EITC to a higher minimum wage are useful idiots, from the perspective of the crafty Southern political-business elite.

Finally, there is the welfare state. Universal, portable social insurance programs like Social Security and Medicare increase the bargaining power of workers, by reducing the penalty for quitting a job because of poor wages or poor treatment. If they quit, they don’t endanger their healthcare access or their retirement security. Workers with adequate social insurance are more likely — to use a time-honored Southern phrase — to be “uppity.”

Apart from a high federal minimum wage, nothing could be a greater threat to the Southern cheap-labor economic strategy than universal, standardized federal social insurance. In order to maximize the dependence of Southern workers on Southern employers in the great low-wage labor pool of the former Confederacy, it would be best to have no welfare at all, only local charity (funded and controlled, naturally, by the local wealthy families).

But if there must be a modern welfare system, then the Southern oligarchy prefers a system that allows state governments, rather than Washington, D.C., to control eligibility and benefit levels. By controlling eligibility, Southern state governments can minimize the amount of the local workforce that has access to good social insurance, reducing the power of Southern workers to be “uppity.” At the same time, giving Southern states the option to have lower benefit levels provides the neo-Confederates with yet another bargaining chip, along with low wages and low taxes, that can be used by Southern state governments to lure business from more generous states or nations.

It is all a system, you see. Southern conservative policies toward immigration, labor unions, the minimum wage and social insurance don’t reflect supposed conservative or libertarian ideologies or values, even if conservative or libertarian intellectuals are paid to dream up after-the-fact rationalizations. These policies are reinforcing components of a well-thought-out economic grand strategy to permit the South, as a nation-within-a-nation in the US, to pimp its cheap, dependent labor for the benefit of local and foreign (non-Southern) corporations and investors.

“Pimp” is the mot juste. In the 1960s, conservatives referred derisively to community activists who were accused of lining their own pockets while representing the urban poor as “poverty pimps.” But the real “poverty pimps” in America are members of the Southern political class — many Southern Democrats and practically all Southern Republicans. By means of permanent economic repression of most Southerners of all races, Southern strategists hope to strip the non-Southern states of the Union of their best companies and industries, thereby crippling Northern revenue bases and sending Northern economies into death spirals.

The defeat of Southernomics is therefore in the interest of most Southerners and most non-Southerners alike. And the defeat of Southernomics requires the radical empowerment of Southern workers — white, black and brown alike. No American workers anywhere in the nation can ever be secure until the wage earners of the South are powerful and prosperous. And uppity.

Michael Lind is the author of Land of Promise: An Economic History of the United States and co-founder of the New America Foundation.

From The Progressive Populist, March 15, 2013

123 Comments

123 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

The truth about the historical document that started the American Civil War

This declaration that follows, the first legal act of secession in the confederacy, was passed by the South Carolina legislature ( on December 24, 1860, before Lincoln became president in 1861 ) to define and explain their acts of treasonous rebellion against the United States.
The American Constitution clearly states:

“Treason against the United States,
shall consist only in levying War against them…”

The South Carolina Declaration clearly refutes modern day southern lies that the acts of their traitorous ancestors were primarily based on an honorable quest for “states’ rights”.
Their own declaration’s references to states’ rights occur only twice in the whole document. The truth is revealed, not just by the document’s text, but by the number of times – twelve – that slavery is referenced.
The legally elected president, by a majority of Americans - Lincoln is referenced four times; and a lie that his policy that “the South shall be excluded from the common territory” is in this document also.
I can forgive your long buried traitorous ancestors – but you sir? you? At long last, sir, have you no respect – have you no honor ? When will you able to tell the truth and fold up the symbol of the greatest treason this country has ever suffered – brought to our nation by your ancestors – at a cost of 620,000 American souls – including 260,000 southerners deluded into dying so that 4,000,000 of their American brothers could be bought - and sold - and whipped - and raped?

Your ancestors’ traitorous rebellion killed more Americans than adolph & the Viet Cong combined ! – on American soil !
Patriotism, sir, is based on truth, not delusions and lies.
A true American may put his God before America, even put his family first, but his state !?
Lee hated slavery but would not head the Union Army when asked in 1861 - because he put his state before his country. – just as you do today. Would the quarter million dead southern soldiers and their families consider Lee’s a wise, brave decision? Or a blind, dead end – based on a stupid, unchristian philosophy - like so many of today’s “southern” stands and lies – such as creationism, anti-gay marriage, death panels, tax cuts for the rich, WMDs, deregulation, privatization, anti-union. Yes, I understand that you, like your traitorous ancestors did not like the presidential election results, but lies, delusions and “states’ rights” are as insane today as they were in 1860.
Sunni or Iraq. Shiite or Iraq. Kurd or Iraq.
What better lesson do you need to understand that
Texas or America; Mississippi or America; South Carolina or America -
is not a debatable question.
When will you ever learn? Can you ever learn? Can you ever tell the truth? Can you ever find your American honor ?.


South Carolina's Declaration of Causes of Secession
December 24, 1960

The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, declared that frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States of America by the Federal Government, and it's encroachment upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in their withdrawal from the Federal Union; but in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other slaveholding states, she forbore at that time to exercise this right. Since that time these encroachments have continued to increase, and the forbearance ceases to be a virtue. And now the State of South Carolina having resumed her separate and equal place among nations, deems it due herself, to the remaining United States of America, and to the nations of the world, that she should declare the immediate causes that lead to this act. We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding states. Those States have assumed the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property [ to own slaves ] established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted the open establishment among them of societies whose avowed object is to disturb the peace of eloin the property [ slaves ] of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain have been incited by emissaries, books, and pictures to servile insurrection. For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of all the United States whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free, and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction. This sectional combination for the subversion of the Constitution has been aided, in some of the States, by elevating to citizenship persons [ slaves ] who, by the supreme law if the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its peace and safety. On the 4th of March next this party [ Lincoln ] will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the Judicial Tribunal shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States. The guarantees of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The slaveholding states will no longer have the power of self-government, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy. Sectional interest and animosity will deepen the irritation; and all hope of remedy is rendered vain, by the fact that the public opinion of the North has invested a great political error with the sanctions of a more erroneous religious belief. We, therefore, the people of South Carolina, by our delegates in convention assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, have solemnly declared that the Union heretofore existing between this State and the other States of North America is dissolved, and that the State of South Carolina has resumed her position among the nations of the world, as a separate and independent state, with the full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent States may of right do. "

[+] -6 points by mercury (-41) 10 years ago

Are you a Civil War reenactor on the weekends? Because, seriously, nobody else cares about it like you do.

[-] 5 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

the civil war is at the heart of southernomics &
southernbigotry &
southernevangelical &
the 1% party

[+] -7 points by mercury (-41) 10 years ago

To you and maybe a few losers in the South it's the heart, but the rest of the nation moved on. Honestly, your average American probably cant even tell you who fought in the Civil War., but you still use terms like "confederate traitors". Might as well be bitching about Whigs or Masons. Obviously you have personal issues with the South and some kind of major hatred going on.

[-] 5 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

I hate what the confederacy did to America and I find it disgusting that southerners worship & celebrate those traitors.

[-] 4 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 10 years ago

They believe the gubmint is the enemy.

Nice work Fluoride!

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

If you remember it was a war of northern aggression toward the south. The South was raped, pillaged and burned down.

For the record, several hundred thousand brave honorable soldiers died in that war. More that WWI and WW!! combined. Bravery and honor should always be recognized, regardless of the color of their uniforms,

[-] 0 points by ericweiss (575) 10 years ago

The civil war was started by the SC document above & by the bullets fired by the southern traitors at the American soldiers in Fort Sumpter

[-] 1 points by gameon (-51) 10 years ago

Fort Sumter

[-] 2 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 10 years ago

Whigs and Tories, dildo.

Obviously you don't care, that's why you keep bitching. Is this smart and crafty in your clique?

[-] 1 points by windyacres (1197) 10 years ago

Hopefully, the entire new system will become based on Love, and not competition. Currently, states and counties basically bid on new businesses, military bases or anything big that creates jobs or prevents job cuts. Whoever pays the most, usually lands the prize of jobs for giving tax breaks, infrastructure, cash, whatever it takes because jobs are scarce. Politicians get reelected because of making these types of deals. Only the elimination of competition will solve our real problem.

"Poverty Pimps" are everywhere.

[-] 4 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

IMHO-
I am against eliminating almost everything
capital punsishment might be an exception

Our society has been purchased by unrestrained crapitalism. But that does not mean capitalism is bad
It means unrestrained crapitalism is bad

where would we be without Edison, Ford, Jobs ?

We must not stop capitalism We must stop the ability of crapitalism to buy our government

HJR29 is the first step

DISCONNECT CAPITALISM FROM DEMOCRACY
Do what 80% of Americans + 100 congressmen + 1309 mayors want


http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com


Virtually everything we want hinges on disarming our opponent –
……………………………………………………..GREED
by stopping the flood of bribes into our government.
by stopping the control – by their capitalism – of our democracy


YOU WANT TO GET IT DONE ?
Join the NYC OWS
Corporations are not People and Money is not Speech Working Group


This is the first REAL step to REAL change .

government OF the people BY the people FOR the people

http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com
check out our comprehensive analysis of
the 17 existing proposed amendments
and our detailed historical timeline of corporate personhood


http://www.nycga.net/groups/restore-democracy.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYCRDWG.com


Are you ready
.....................FOR ACTION ?
Are you ready
.....................TO DO SOMETHING REAL ?
Are you ready
......................TO JOIN 80% OF YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS ?


We must not
DEMAND that we WANT THEM.to give to US
We must
DEMAND GOALS THAT WE WILL ACHIEVE FOR OURSELVES


Because of the Supreme Court's decision,
we cannot accomplish anything significant, without FIRST -

Overturning Citizens United !!!
Ending Corporate Personhood !!!


80% of Americans already agree on it
as stated in the ABC/Washington Post poll

http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com/1_6_DOCUMENTS.html click on #12


And in the the PFAW Poll -

85% of voters say that corporations have too much influence over the political system today.
77% think Congress should support an amendment to limit the amount corporations can spend on elections.
74% say that they would be more likely to vote for a candidate for Congress who pledged to support a
Constitutional Amendment limiting corporate spending in elections.

http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com/1_6_DOCUMENTS.html click on #11


Our primary goal should be to elect representatives who support a constitutional amendment to reverse the Supreme Court decision Citizens United (2010) , that enables unlimited amounts of anonymous money to flood into our political system.
We don’t have to explain or persuade people to accept our position – we only have to persuade them to ACT based on their own position. Pursuing this goal will prove to the world that we, at OWS, are a serious realistic movement, with serious realistic goals. Achieving this goal will make virtually every other goal – jobs, taxes, infrastructure, Medicare – much easier to achieve –
by disarming our greatest enemy – GREED.


IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO ACT ----> JOIN US TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE


I feel that using the tactics of the NRA, the AARP, the TP, the anti-SOPA – who all represent a minority – who have successfully used their voting power and political pressure to achieve their minority goals - is a straight path for us to success that cannot fail to enable us to create and complete one task that the MAJORITY want.


Join the NYC OWS Corporations are not People and Money is not Speech Working Group

http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com

http://www.nycga.net/groups/restore-democracy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYCRDWG
http://bit.ly/vK2pGI

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 10 years ago

See "The Thin Blue Line" and shed your death penalty exception. We can always make RepubliCon criminals generate electricity and contribute to criminal science.

[+] -5 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 10 years ago

I must say that you and Bensdad work very well together in trying to co-opt this movement

It's almost like you two were related or something...lol

~Odin~

[-] 3 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 10 years ago

Oh, I see you're still an idiot, what a surprise! BTW, your [implied and insidious] false representation of Occupy Wall Street slimes it's relevancy. Do Libs and Progs troll anarchist, libertarian or RepubliCon sites and forums? NO!

[-] -1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 10 years ago

WOW Will, you plus 4, me minus 4

My how popular you and Bensdad' brand of of perverted politics has gotten over-night

Will you guys be bringing your xenophobic rants on soon too, and try to convince people they are part of Occupy too?

Are you and your partisan multimen going to give me a lesson on what Occupy is about

You're a crack Will

~Odin~

[+] -7 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

Wow, I mean just wow. I can’t believe we’re not past the point of belittling the South. However, I shouldn’t be surprised. I see a lot of Southern bashing on this forum. A lot of people who know I’m in Texas never miss a opportunity to take a shot at us dumb rednecks and hillbillies.

Generally speaking, the South has weathered the recession much better than Northern States. Specifically Texas where the economy is one of the best in the nation and people, and companies, are moving here in droves. Austin has more high tech, high paying tech jobs than San Jose.

I agree there is a different set of values between the North and South. But that doesn’t mean one is better than the other. I call bullshit on the article.

[-] 5 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

call bullshit all you want - it is THE tactic of teapublicans and trolls -
broad, vague accusations.
Do you have the courage to explain at least three factual errors in the article.

Could it be that the "different set of values" WAS mostly based on slavery?
Could it be that the "different set of values" IS mostly based on evangelical lemmingism?

[-] 6 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 10 years ago

Right-to-Work & Bible Belt!

Entrenched plantation exploitation mentality and Good Ole Boy okeydokes all the way to the banks.

The resistance to change can be attributed to a certain nasty but lucrative policy of indentured servitude for English settlers, with a real estate happy ending! "If my great great great great Grand Daddy did it, so can you!"

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

Ummmm...........don't you know gender is a wedge issue?

These peeps don't like all dat.

[-] 5 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

I keep forgetting how reality isn't supposed to count.

It's like how I'm supposed to ignore ALEC and the Kochs.

Of course ALEC and the Kochs are trying real hard to bring all that up north too.

http://truth-out.org/news/item/16806-wisconsin-legislature-fast-tracking-war-on-democracy-bill-business-lobby-misleads-on-disclosure-provisions

They just don't want anyone to know they are the ones that are doing it.

Just like they do here.

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

And eliminating disclosure requirements allows these powerful interests to do so secretly -- which actually increases their relative influence, because it eliminates public accountability.


They spend an inordinate amount of time fluctuating between in your face to hiding.

[-] 5 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Around here, when cornered on an issue, they will start a new thread on the kerfuffle of the day.

Note, OTPs thread on Michelle, was started when I had him cornered on union issues, that he couldn't discuss, because he actually HATES unions.

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

It's all about deflection.

[-] 5 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Deflection, in an attempt to control reality.

and then so many of them, won't believe a thing until the press tells them it's so.

Months ago I stated that we have NO privacy, as did Sen. Sanders. this because of what the Patriot Act allows, as well as what corporations have been perfecting for years.

They didn't believe it, until it came out in the press.

Now there's several threads on the subject, all acting like it's some kind of revelation.

Pffft!!

All of it based on precedent and the momentum those precedents create.

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

That's what I said yesterday and all of this was discussed last year.

It's an attempt to motivate people through fear and keep up the focus on scandals. Especially given the fact that all of the proposed scandals have seemingly evaporated. Either zoom in on it and alter the law or don't. It's pretty damn simple. This is an ongoing issue.

[-] 4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Bernie is about the only one not acting surprised.

http://www.politicususa.com/bernie-sanders-blames-congressional-support-patriot-act-verizonnsa-snooping.html

What do folks think they're going to do with that HUGE data center/server farm, they're building in Utah?

Fill it up with Pepsi ads?

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

The real problem is that they shouldn’t have these powers in the first place. Congress has had three opportunities to say no to the Patriot Act. Instead, Democrats and Republicans both voted for the initial legislation in 2001, and reauthorized it in 2006 and 2011.


'Zactly. Fair turnabout it was originally written in 1995. This isn't new. It isn't a scandal.

[-] 4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Can't argue or add much to that.

I can remember telling co-workers about what to expect when it first passed, and they gave me that glazed, they wouldn't do that, look.

They did all that and more.

They're calling in lawyers to help them figure out how much more it will let them do.

[-] 4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

No, I've never met the man, but he would appear to have a medical issue.

Are these guys friend of yours?

http://www.thefix.com/content/wall-street-addiction-finance-cocaine-meltdown7456?page=all

They crashed they Worlds economy, unlike the guy you posted on from the nefarious NY Post. They lie almost as much as FLAKESnews.

[+] -4 points by Tragedy (-56) 10 years ago

Ha!. Thanks for the laugh. "I am at war with my body" Whiny losers. The 1980's laugh at those lightweights.

FYI, Mr Medical Issue got bounced, but maybe he has connections to hook up with those Wall Street dudes

http://www.roonte.com/www/sleepy-union-big-was-living-with-a-meth-lab-in-’06

[-] 5 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Like I said, it's the Post. If you want to trust that shit, you'll be getting even dumber than that guy.

Like hillbilly heroin, meth isn't for the upper crust, showing of course that that you didn't read a thing from the link I provided.

You should try and catch up on some actual union issues.

http://www.labornotes.org/

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by ericweiss (575) 10 years ago

surprise-
top "other news source" on that site - breitbart

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Their anti-union stuff is getting pretty desperate isn't it?

[-] 5 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 10 years ago

i call bullshit on texas.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

2 late their state government already did that.

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 10 years ago

It's the lack of regulation that is appealing.

Look what happened at that fertiliser plant.

[-] 4 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 10 years ago

i live in the south these people are dumb as fuck.

[-] -3 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

I’m sure that’s part of it. But good jobs are the biggest appeal for Texas. I think every year for at least the last ten years, Austin, TX has been on the “Top ten best places to live in the US”. Personally I don’t like it since so many people are moving here. It’s becoming a mini-California. Probably more Sushi bars than BBQ joints these days.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

Texass sounds awesome:

A 23-year-old woman in Texas is dead. Her murderer, Ezekiel Gilbert, will walk free. A jury of Gilbert's peers thought that since Gilbert's victim accepted $150 from him and then refused to have sex with him, his decision to shoot her in the neck as she left was justified.

A law in Texas allows people to use "deadly force to recover property during a nighttime theft." But that law is presumably in place to protect people during potentially violent break-ins and muggings. Gilbert met his victim on Craigslist, handed her the money voluntarily, and then shot her when things didn't go as planned.

That's not self-defense. That's a man murdering a woman because she refused to have sex with him.

This ruling sets a dangerous, disgusting precedent, and it must never be allowed to happen again. Tell Texas lawmakers to clarify the existing laws so that loopholes like this don't let any other killers walk free.

Thank you for taking action,

Kathleen Care2 and ThePetitionSite Team

[-] -3 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

I like Texas, it’s home. I assume you like where you live. But Texas isn’t perfect by a long shot; just like anywhere else. We can play tit for tat on example of what’s wrong with where each of us live, but that doesn’t make the case.

True, it’s legal shoot someone over a property crime. I’m not positive, but I think a lot of States have the similar laws. I’ve always told myself I’d never shoot someone over property. But the citizens seem to like it. It’s one of those “value” differences between different areas of the US. Not trying to be sarcastic, but if that’s a big deal to you then don’t come to Texas. Simple solution.

My whole point in this thread was to point out the bigotry some Northerners nave for the South. But in all fairness, must original Southerners still use the term Yankees. Somehow people understand racism and bigotry on other areas, but it seems OK to hate people because they live in the South. Go figure.

[-] 4 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

the best texass jokes:

rick perry & louis gomert

[+] -4 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

Yea, kinda like saying Bloomberg and Cuomo.

[-] 5 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

I'm not saying rick & louis are right wing -
I'm saying they are crazy idiots

[+] -4 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

Just like Bloomberg and Cuomo. Life is much freer in Texas than NY. New York gives up their rights too easy. Why in the world would anyone tolerate stop and frisk I'll never know.

[-] 5 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

In texass, you can own any number of guns - FREEDOM!

[+] -4 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

Absolutely, Freedom! Yea, most of the US can own guns. So what?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

Ummm it's not bigotry - to dislike the abuse of the population - and that is an institution very popular in the south.

[+] -5 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

I doubt Texans feel any more abused than anywhere else. That's a subjective opinion. Personally I feel freer than if I lived in NYC. At least I pay less taxes, have low crime, can carry a gun if I want, can buy large Big Gulps and not worry about stop and frisk.

I really don't care what NYC does, I don't live there. Whatever the people want is fine with me. I just wish people would show the same courtesy for Southern states.

[-] 5 points by Buttercup (1067) 10 years ago

Funny that's exactly what the South said about slavery too.

[+] -7 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

What the hell does slavery have to do with it. Are you suggesting Southerners are pro-slavery? That's an old tired argument simply meant to insult.

If you have something of substance to say, then say it. But to suggest Southerns are pro slavery is just dumb; and you know it.

[-] 5 points by Buttercup (1067) 10 years ago

Are you dense? 150 years ago that's the exact argument the South had about slavery. As in: Let the Northern states do what they want. We in the South like slavery. The North can do what they want. They should extend the same 'courtesy' to us Southerners to do what we want. We want our slavery. Now where's my whip?

[+] -5 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

Aw jeez, this is getting weird. Are you maintaining Southerners want slavery back? For what it's worth I own a Confederate Battle flag. It's a southern pride thing. That doesn't mean I believe in slavery.

Ans yes, I generally believe in States rights. The people in New Jersey don't get to tell Mississippi how to run their state.

[-] 6 points by Buttercup (1067) 10 years ago

Yes you are dense. I said 150 years ago the South had the same argument you're making now. Jeesh.

'I own a Confederate Battle flag' - that figures.

'It's a southern pride thing' - I won't even waste my time going there.

[+] -5 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

I've lost track. What the hell are we arguing about. I support OWS ideals and principals. Are Southerners now not allowed to support their heritage. Sounds like you're more into exclusion than inclusion. We're in this together. Shouldn't matter where we live.

[-] 4 points by Buttercup (1067) 10 years ago

Supporting the heritage of enslaving other human beings! OMG there is something wrong with you.

I don't know what is more despicable. The act itself or the fact that you do not get it.

[-] 1 points by ericweiss (575) 10 years ago

The south should support their heritage - traitors & lynching & bigotry

[-] 4 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

right - let texass drag & lynch & execute

[-] -3 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

Texas executes more murderers than any other State. Has done so since the death penalty was reinstated. Texas executes a murders on an average of every three weeks. I believe in the death penalty. Some murders are so heinous, so inhuman that death is the only real justice.

For every example of something bad happening in Texas I can come up with something similar for your State. A few examples don’t make the rule. In reality Texas is a very safe place to live (outside the inner city Houston and Dallas).

[-] 4 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

texass executes non-murderers too
In his final hours on death row, Cameron Todd Willingham and his attorneys tried frantically to show the governor of Texas a new scientific report proving his innocence. The evidence was ignored, and Willingham was executed on February 17, 2004.

During his trial, he refused prosecutors' offer to give him life in prison instead of the death penalty. He told them he was innocent, and he wouldn't agree to any deals. As he was strapped down in the execution chamber, just before the lethal injection began, he proclaimed his innocence one last time.

An extraordinary new investigative report in the New Yorker shows that Willingham was telling the truth. He was innocent. David Grann's report, in the September 7 issue, exhaustively deconstructs every aspect of the case and shows that none of the evidence used to convict Willingham was valid. Since the reinstatement of capital punishment in 1974, Grann's report constitutes the strongest case on record in this country that an innocent man was executed.

Willingham was convicted of murdering his two young children by arson. He spent 12 years on death row in Texas before he was executed. Forensic science that supposedly proved the fire was intentionally set was central to Willingham's conviction was, in fact, completely invalid -- which the experts who testified should have known in 1992. A state forensic science commission in Texas is officially looking into the case and selected a widely respected expert to analyze whether the forensic testimony was valid. Last week the expert filed a report confirming what five other leading arson experts have found -- what passed for arson analysis in the Willingham case had no scientific basis, and the scientific facts in Willingham's case were the same as the case of Ernest Willis. In an entirely separate case, Willis was sent to death row in Texas for an arson murder of family members but, luckily, in his the state recognized the arson analysis was wrong. Willis was fully exonerated just months after Willingham was executed.

The state forensic commission in Texas is still finishing its work on Willingham's case, but David Grann's New Yorker article examines the entire case, including the jailhouse informant who plainly gave false testimony and the circumstantial evidence, flimsy in the first place, that was not what it appeared to be to the jury. After reading Grann's report, fair-minded people will know beyond a reasonable doubt that an innocent person was executed

So what now? Whether our criminal justice system has executed an innocent man should no longer be an open question. We don't know how often it happens, but we know it has happened. Cameron Todd Willingham's case proves that.

The focus turns to how we can stop it from happening again. As long as our system of justice makes mistakes -- including the ultimate mistake -- we cannot continue executing people.

At the same time, the problems in the Willingham case are not limited to people facing the death penalty. The Innocence Project has found that forensic science problems were a factor in 50 percent of all wrongful convictions that were later overturned with DNA testing. A recent report by the National Academy of Sciences found that many forensic disciplines are not rooted in solid science. The report called on Congress to create a National Institute of Forensic Science to set nationwide standards and ensure that evidence used in criminal cases is sufficiently scientific. This can be done cost-effectively and without creating a large bureaucracy.

It's not just possible to improve forensic science in this country -- it's imperative. If Cameron Todd Willingham's case teaches us nothing else, it should make improving the reliability of our criminal justice system a top priority nationwide. It's not enough to feel bad that an innocent man was executed; we must use this moment to do better.

[+] -5 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

You obviously care a lot more about this than I do. I'm not familiar with the case you mention. I guess it's possible a innocent person was executed, but it would be extremely rare. Especially these days with better investigative tools. But I'm not willing to stop the executions of clearly guilty people because of one possibly mishandled case. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

so you agree with these paragons of civilization: 1 China 4,000 .
2 Iran 360+
3 Saudi Arabia 82+
4 Iraq 68+
5 United States 43
6 Yemen 41+
7 North Korea 30+
8 Somalia 10
9 Sudan 7+


Despite records, Bush denies mentally retarded executed By JOHN W. GONZALEZ and POLLY ROSS HUGHES The Houston Chronicle August 10, 2000

OXNARD, Calif. (The Houston Chronicle) -- Gov. George W. Bush claimed Wednesday that Texas doesn't execute mentally retarded killers, although at least five such convicts have been put to death in recent years.

The comment came as the GOP presidential nominee was campaigning in California, hours before two Texas inmates were executed. One of the inmates, Oliver D. Cruz, was described as mentally retarded, though that conclusion was challenged by prosecutors earlier this week.

Answering news media questions upon his arrival from Texas, Bush indicated that justice was being served with the executions of Cruz and a second inmate, Brian Roberson. But when told that several states have banned the execution of mentally retarded inmates, Bush said, "So do we, in Texas."

However, no ban has been approved by Texas lawmakers, although they tried as recently as 1999. Bush opposed that bill. More from The Houston Chronicle Demolition to close freeway this weekend

Punishment declined in Padre suit

Low-income residents to get relief from heat

Road work flaws to cost taxpayers

Business

Constraints in existing law, which Bush cited as safeguards, failed to prevent the execution of five mentally retarded inmates since 1984 -- six, according to those who argue that Cruz was retarded.

"For anybody tried in the state of Texas, mental capacity is a factor, not only during the trial phase but during the appellate phase," Bush said. " ... In all cases, mental competency is a factor in Texas law."

Queried about his opposition to the 1999 bill to ban executions of the retarded, Bush insisted Texas' current law is adequate. And that's the point he was trying to make when he made his controversial remark, an aide said.

"Texas law has many safeguards in place to prevent someone who is not competent from even going to trial, much less being executed," said campaign spokesman Scott McClellan, adding that at least five laws come into play in such cases.

"Even if one juror has reasonable doubts about the defendant's mental ability to form the intent to commit a crime, then that person must be acquitted," he noted.

Wednesday night's execution of Cruz drew more than the usual attention on Texas' death chamber, the busiest in the nation. That is in part because of the debate over executing people with mental retardation and because of Bush's bid for the presidency, which has put his positions on crime and punishment under heavy scrutiny.

Bush's discussion with reporters on the topic ended as he headed to a campaign event, and he wasn't immediately available to elaborate. The candidate was making a train tour of portions of California.

Houston Democrat Sen. Rodney Ellis was author of the bill last year that would have banned the execution of inmates with an IQ of 65 or lower. Ellis said in an interview Wednesday that Bush told him at the time, "I think current law is fine."

Although the bill passed the Texas Senate, 22-8, it died in a House committee.

Ellis said he plans to reintroduce the bill next spring to ban the execution of anyone with an IQ of 70 or lower and to make it retroactive to include those on death row now. If passed, Texas would join 12 other states in such bans.

Nationwide, 34 mentally retarded offenders with IQs of 70 or lower have been executed since April 5, 1984, according to the Death Penalty Information Center. Of those, five were in Texas, not counting Cruz.

Terry Washington, a 33-year-old black man, was executed during Bush's administration. Another mentally retarded offender, Mario Marquez, was executed roughly 12 hours before Bush was sworn in as governor on Jan. 17, 1995.

Evidence of Marquez's retardation was not even allowed to be presented to the jury. It took a 1989 U.S. Supreme Court decision to force Texas courts to allow presentation of mitigating evidence.

In the case of Washington, whose IQ was thought to range between 58 and 69, he was executed on May 6, 1997. He was convicted in the murder of Beatrice Huling, 29, a night manager at the restaurant where he worked as a dishwasher. He tied her up with apron strings, tortured her with a knife and then stabbed her 85 times.

Death penalty supporters argue that the Supreme Court has made it clear that the issue is whether a person is mentally competent to understand the crime and punishment. As to whether it is moral to execute mentally retarded people, Dianne Clements, head of the victims' rights group Justice for All, responds, "The moral standard is don't rape and murder people."

[-] 4 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 10 years ago

ignorance is bliss

[+] -7 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

That's exactly what I was thinking. New Yorkers seem to accept too much government oppression. Why would anyone want to live where the Mayor thinks he's a king. But, like I said, It's none of my business. Seems New Yorkers have a higher bullshit tolerance level than Texans. To each his own.

[-] 5 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 10 years ago

Stuff the BS. You're reciting beliefs and taking points, no "thought" involved.

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

My sister in law is from Texass - she is so happy to be out of the backward redneck state. Her words. She is not the only one from Texass that feels that way.

[-] -3 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

Yea, it gets too hot here in the summer. I spend some time in the New Mexico mountains during the summer to get out of the heat. From that prospective I can understand why she left.

Also, for every person who leaves Texas, it seems like a hundred move in. I'm not positive, but I think Texas has the fastest growing population.

[+] -6 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

Yea, you probably also think blacks are inherently criminals, Mexicans are only good for manual labor, gays a perverts and sex before marriage dooms you to hell. Oh well, we know bigots still exist. Are you sure you’re on the right forum. Seems like Stormront better suits your attitude.

[-] -3 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

OK, so what should they do with gang members, habitual criminals, rapists and murderers. I certainly don't want them on the street.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Welcome to the slippery slope.

A slippery slope you made in your previous statement.

Because now it's YOU saying that blacks and latinos, are inherently criminals. That's according to the Texas prison records, so apparently instead of stop and frisk, they just toss 'em in the back of the patrol car and bring 'em before a judge, who throws most of them in prison......

I hope they are better than the one in Mississippi, but somehow, I doubt they are very much better.

The history in Texas, isn't very good.

http://www.criminaljusticetx.org/the-issues/private-prison

http://www.texasprisonbidness.org/map

OOOooooh, and corruption too.

http://www.allgov.com/news/where-is-the-money-going/texas-pays-for-private-prisons-while-thousands-of-beds-in-public-prisons-are-empty-130210?news=847017

http://www.aclutx.org/files/Highlights%20of%20Private%20Prison%20Scandals%20in%20Texas.pdf

You need to be aware that prison's are a form of torture.

That makes it torture for profit.

[-] 0 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

For the life of me I'll never understand why some people have sympathy for criminal, rapists and murders. Race is irrelevant. Criminals should be in prison. The victims deserve you caring, not the criminals.

Don't you get it? Race doesn't matter. Criminals should be locked up. It's that simple.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

You're still sliding.

If Texas is SO perfect?

Why does it have the highest level of incarceration?

Why are those imprisoned, largely minorities?

You do of course know that poverty, creates most of the crime that we actually prosecute?

and that once you've served time, it's even harder to get out from under the poverty that put you there in the first place?

Here's an interesting article on the relation between education and poverty. I haven't finished reading it, so I don't know if Texas is mentioned.

http://www.alternet.org/education/us-department-education-releases-study-schools-and-poverty-rate

So guess the question becomes.

If the system there is so great and level, why are so many in prison?

Why didn't the system work for those in poverty?

That would go for the education system too, and asks again why you think RFIDs on children are a good thing?

[-] 0 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

You’re hung up on this RFID thing. Probably a good thing for small kids. It’s a dangerous world for kids. Anything to protect them. What’s your objection?

No place is perfect, including Texas. The US as a whole has one of the highest incarceration rates of in the world. What you seem to be implying is Texas locks of people because of their race or ethnicity. I don’t believe it. Texas locks up criminals. Period.

It is unfortunate that minorities make up the largest population in prison in ALL States. And I’m sure poverty has a lot to do with it. But if you’re saying it’s racist to lock up minority criminals, I say bullshit. ALL criminals should be locked up. I’ll say it again, race doesn’t matter. It’s the crime. I will absolutely never feel sorry for rapists, murders and gang bangers. I reserve my caring for the victims.

I also agree training and education should be provided to those prisoners who will eventually get out. Still, a lot of them should NEVER get out. They’ll just go back to being a criminal.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

The RFID thing? It's about the money.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/01/school-kicks-out-sophomore-in-rfid-student-id-flap/

The safety thing is just PR, to make it more palatable

It's not perfect??? That's an excuse, to avoid the questions, and nothing more....

It does NOTHING to explain why minorities are incarcerated at a so much higher rate. You've skirted it entirely, and even attempted to twist it back around.

I didn't put them in prison. Texas did, and I'm asking YOU to explain the disparity.

While we're on the subject, what proportion of those prisons are profiteered?

The profit mongers demand a certain level of occupancy. It's contractual

Another issue you skirted.

In the end, I too believe SOME people, might need to be incarcerated for lengthy periods of time, but PRISON, as we do it is TORTURE, In some cases, torture for profit. ( that's truly sick), and little or nothing is done to reduce recidivism, other than that torture......IN some cases for something like smoking a joint.

How's your drug laws down there?

[-] 0 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

Drug laws? Duh. Drugs are illegal just like everywhere else. You get caught with drugs you go to jail. But I don’t know the details of drug laws, I’ve never taken a illegal drug in my life. But I do know Texas is a major drug portal from Mexico. Seems like once a week they catch someone with tons of drugs. Those people should be in jail. Surely you agree with that.

I answered you question a couple of times, you just don’t like the answer. So, I’ll say it again. Criminals should be in jail, regardless of race. You seem to know more about prisons than I do. I’ve never been in one. But they’re not intended to be resorts.

By the way, the world doesn’t run for your personal views. Basically you just come across as an angry person who will bitch about anything. Do something constructive for a change and take a break from the keyboard. You’re becoming hostile.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Welcome back to the slippery slope.

Why should someone go to prison for smoking a joint?

Why do YOU think minorities break so many Texas laws, when Texas is so close to ideal?

You do realize, it's against the law to dumpster dive in Houston?

Why is it you think me asking you for answers is bitching?

It would seem that it's more about you bitching to avoid answering them.

Nobody but you came up with the bitch about how prison's not supposed to be a resort. I said they were a form of torture, which they are. In some cases VERY severe torture, more often than it should, it's torture of innocents.

So why torture them at all? Lose of freedom, should be enough for most of them.

there is no need to torture them..

Your pat, standard answer don't really explain anything.

[-] -1 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

My pat, standard answer is they don't torture. Sorry if you think trying to control unruly and dangerous criminals is torture. It's not.

Few people go to prison for smoking a joint. But two tons of cocaine will get your ass in jail; and it should.

Anyway, Texas prisons may be better than some parts of Detroit. And you know that's true.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Ahh yes, the law and order bullshit and a dig at Detroit.

But still..........Not answers to the questions.

I'll look that stuff up later, it's obvious, you won't bother.

[-] -1 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

Have fun.

[-] 1 points by ericweiss (575) 10 years ago

You mean criminals like bush & cheney & rumsfeld & rice & powell

[-] 1 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

Nope, I mean rapists, murderers, gang bangers, drug dealers and career criminals. The folks you mention weren't charged with a crime.

[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 10 years ago

are you trying to say you are not dumb?

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

Well I am a pretty smart guy, but my point is it’s just as bigoted to judge people on where they live as it is to judge them on race and ethnicity.

[-] 0 points by JackPulliam3rd (205) 10 years ago

Maybe he's from Staten Island originally. You can see how much more sophisticated we are up here. Not all dumb like them Southerners. ;)

http://gothamist.com/2013/03/24/ems_bad_lieutenant_cries_when_racis.php

[-] -1 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

At least we don't have stop and frisk. Also pay less taxes and buy any size soft drink we want. However, Texas and New York do have one thing in common. The Governors of both States think they are kings.

[-] 4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

I know we are all kind of bully on the States we live in, but you shouldn't lie.

You have schools that require RFIDs.

You have regulation so far from reality that an entire town blew up because of it, and the whole State shrugged.

You have the highest incidence of minimum wage jobs in the nation.

Some of the most polluted waterways in the Nation.

Texas is nothing to brag about.

[-] -3 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

Texas has a hell of a lot more to brag about than Detroit. Surely you agree with that?

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

What's that supposed to mean????

You want to brag about the lose of personal freedom RFIDs bring to the table?

You want to brag about all your minimum wage jobs, while your politicians fight to make that wage even lower?

You want to brag about your pollution levels??

You want brag about blowing up an entire town for profit?

Or would you prefer to just brag about how good you are at ignoring all that?

The real shame here, is that you think it's OK for states to be in competition.

[+] -4 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

States ARE in competition. Actually in cutthroat competition. The offer tax incentives and dangle carrots in front of companies to get them to come to their States. Texas has been very successful in luring companies to Texas, but a number of States do the same thing. Nothing wrong with competition.

I’m sorry you don’t like Texas. But most people enjoy living here. I’m not bragging. I actually hate all this growth. It’s turning Texas into a California. I may have to move further out to get with a few decent rednecks.

Bottom line, Sorry you don’t like Texas. Tough shit. You don’t get a vote. Your hate is keeping you from being objective.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Excuse me??

That competition is what's tearing the Nation apart.

It created the race to the bottom, ever since corporations pitted them against each other.

That's why you are incapable of addressing even one of the Texas realities I pointed out to you.

You want to hear the REAL hate?

Why don't YOU tell us all about what you think of Detroit?

I don't hate Texas, or Texans, just what they've done to the country.

So bottom line.

Let's hear what you have to say about Detroit.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

That competition is what's tearing the Nation apart.

Exactly. corp(se)oRATions, Business is gonna go where they get the most gravy - this works out to be bad for the worker and bad for the state.

Bad for the worker in wages and working conditions and benefits.

Bad for the state/population in loss of taxable ( business ) revenue - bad for the state/population in reduced taxes paid by the worker ( low wages ) and an added expense to provide what the low wage worker can not = Food Shelter Medical Care etc etc etc Also bad for the state/population for those business get loopholes to bypass pollution standards/regulations.

[-] 4 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

If America competed with itself during WW2,
in stead of co-operating
you would be speaking German

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

Yep - good thing the corp(se)oRATions did not have the same power as they do today as they probably would have kept us out of the war and just selling arms to all involved.

[-] 4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

I get it.

Unfortunately there are those to whom it is a difficult concept to absorb.

They think it's like "sports" competition.

They don't grasp that lives, livelyhoods and families are at stake.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

They don't grasp that lives, livelyhoods and families are at stake.

I think most do comprehend. They just don't care if they figure that it is someone Else's problem and not theirs ( like Narley ).

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

It's the "right" attitude to keep the lie alive.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

Yep - because what is going wrong/on in this world today does affect everyone - whether they want it to or not.

[-] 4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Yep, it sure does, and these days, most of it's negative.

It could be the opposite, but this kind of attitude keeps that from happening.

Good things can effect the World too, but that tends to be bad for rising profit margins.

So Wallstreet sees to it, that the kibosh is put on such notions.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

And so insanity rules. When everyone could be living a healthy peaceful prosperous life instead.

[-] -2 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

I don't hate Detroit. Never been there. I suspect the State of Michigan is probably a good place to live.

My opinion of Detroit is it's a dying city. Unfortunately It will not recover. Detroit isn't the only city with problems, but it's probably in worse condition than other cities with similar problems.

No, I'm not trying to be insulting. It just seems clear Detroit will not survive.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

I really didn't think you'd answer.

You're batting .000 so far, so let's try this.

Why do you think Detroit is a dead city and why do think it can NEVER survive.

What do you think "killed" Detroit?

And what do you mean by that in the first place?

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Didn't know you were he too.

But here goes.

1.) You must be joking? I have to sign in to read end of the world clap trap.? Not going to happen.

2.) Buchanan?? Really? The man's clueless. He always was just this side of Lyndon Larouche

3.) It's starts out with a comment about $77 billion bailout. That comment makes him as clueless as Buchanan. It's a lie promoted by FLAKESnews and other equally lying sacks of shit.

4.) The CATO point of view isn't any better. Here's a comment on Tamny.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/06/a_prescription_for_a_crippling.html

Good job, you have no idea.

[+] -5 points by mercury (-41) 10 years ago

I'm only me, and I was just throwing out ideas for discussion. Didn't realize there was a HUGE FUCKING ASSHOLE at the other end or I wouldn't have bothered. Seriously, what's up your ass? Basic civility too much for you? Maybe karma killed Detroit.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Insults??

Isn't that special

Did you really think the crap you posted had anything to do with it?

Did you even consider reading it?

Do you really think an entire city should be treated with the disdainful, shallow attitude of the people you posted links to?

I should be asking you what the fuck crawled your ass and laid an egg the size of Texas. But I won't.

Because if that's the best you can do. It ain't much, and it isn't even close to the truth.

But if you want to believe lies and insult those who would inform you that they ARE lies.

That's your loss, not mine.

[-] -2 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

Industry has abandoned the Detroit and it’s not coming back in the foreseeable future. The city is in bankruptcy with little or no chance of recovery.

Abandoned and dilapidated property everywhere.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

Reagan happened, Bush happened, Engler happened and now Snyder is happening.

And WallStreet and "right to work" too.

Still over simplified, but much closer to the truth than anything anyone else has said so far.

[-] -1 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

The thing that really, really scares me is Detroit could be a view into the future for a lot of the US. I think it's a real possibility.

I certainly don't blame the good people of Detroit. They are caught in the middle, but unless they relocate their lives probably won't improve. Just the brutal facts.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

"The damage is done"

The "damage" is still under way, and you still haven't explained your use of the term "dead".

Oh and by the way, like it or not, the auto industry is still very much a barometer of how well, not just Michigan, but the nation as a whole is doing.

[-] 0 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

As I said, I think the decline in the auto industry in the 70's, 80's and 90's contributed to the downfall of Detroit. But that's just an opinion. I can't be sure, I don't pay attention to what happens in Detroit. Just not interested.

You're probably right, the damage is probably still going on. And frankly, it seems no one can fix it. Shit happens sometime.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 years ago

I appreciate your apparent concern..........but.........

You're still skirting the question.

What do you think happened?

You made the "dead" statement, you need explain and defend it.

[-] -2 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

I don't know why. My guess is the automotive industry fell on hard times. Probably other things I'm not aware of.

But does the :"why" really matter at this point. The damage is done.

[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

As long as capitalism is in control of democracy, the 99% will lose

[-] -2 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

However remote the possibility, capitalism is the only thing that could save Detroit. I for one, don't want to see a bailout.

[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

So you are against a geograpic part of America getting more money from the federal government than it contributes?
No doubt you are against the Oklahoma bailouts?


and - of course - you know that almost every red state gets more money from the feds than they put in.

[-] -2 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

Now your playing with words. It's quite common for communities to receive federal aid during a disaster. Happens all the time. But federal aid for a disaster is much different from trying to sustain a dead city with bailouts.