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Forum Post: Nonviolence: The Only Road to Freedom

Posted 1 year ago on April 4, 2013, 3:02 a.m. EST by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Some excerpts from a work that should be read by every person. Penned in 1966 but just as relevant today. Be sure to note this man's well thought out strategy.

"I have talked with many persons in the ghettos of the North who argue eloquently for the use of violence. But I observed none of them in the mobs that rioted in Chicago. I have heard the street-corner preachers in Harlem and in Chicago’s Washington Park, but in spite of the bitterness preached and the hatred espoused, none of them has ever been able to start a riot. So far, only the police through their fears and prejudice have goaded our people to riot. And once the riot starts, only the police or the National Guard have been able to put an end to them. This demonstrates that there violent eruptions are unplanned, uncontrollable, temper tantrums brought on by the long-neglected poverty, humiliation, oppression and exploitation. Violence as a strategy for social change in America is nonexistent. All the sound and fury seems but the posturing of cowards whose bold talk produces no action and signifies nothing."

"In a nonviolent demonstration, self-defense must be approached from quite another perspective. One must remember that the cause of the demonstration is some exploitation or form of oppression that has made it necessary for men of courage and good will do demonstrate against evil. For example, a demonstration against the evil of de facto school segregation is based on the awareness that a child’s mind is crippled daily by inadequate educational opportunity. The demonstrator agrees that is better for him to suffer publicly for a short time to end the crippling evil of school segregation than to have generation after generation of children suffer in ignorance.

In such a demonstration, the point is made that schools are inadequate. This is the evil to which one seeks to point; anything else detracts from that point and interferes with confrontation of the primary evil against which one demonstrates. Of course, no one wants to suffer and be hurt. But it is more important to get at the cause than to be safe. It is better to shed a little blood from a blow on the head or a rock thrown by an angry mob than to have children by the thousands grow up reading at a fifth- or sixth-grade reading level. "

"There is no easy way to create a world where men and women can live together, where each has his own job and house and where all children receive as much education as their minds can absorb. But if such a world is created in our lifetime, it will be done in the United States by Negroes and white people of good will. It will be accomplished by persons who have the courage to put an end to suffering by willingly suffering themselves rather than inflict suffering upon others. It will be done by rejecting the racism, materialism and violence that has characterized Western civilization and especially by working toward a world of brotherhood, cooperation and peace."

Read the entire work here:

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=1426

118 Comments

118 Comments


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[-] 3 points by RobertHod (1) 1 year ago

You know the peace sign right? It is given with the palm out. Given with the back of the hand it symbolizes war, or the release of an arrow straight into the sky to fall to earth at near 400mph.

Those that made that sign made war on Rome ruling England through a corrupt secular King. They were the impoverished, previously enslaved Indigenous people of the Isles who had sickened of the Barons exploitation of the people for taxes and funding crusades.

They took to the forest and were unified by the Druids to be the greatest force of Heretics in history . . . that knew all involved were Heretics.

Through extreme violence for probably 70 years upon the Barons, the Knights and the Kings men, the Free Men gained the Magna Carta.

Your constitution is based in that peace treaty of 1215. If you let that fall, AFTER you recover from slavery, if you EVER DO, you will have to conduct violence for generations to gain freedom again.

So yes, non violence YES, but, use real legal strategy and process for each and every action in which the people are called upon to unify in protest. Doing so will make your elite press know they cannot escape their duty, so test them and do it hard NOW.

[-] 2 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Not inducing fear was left out as a prime factor, invoking human instinct of evolutionary principle is left out, presenting innovation in a fear free environment that uses evolutionary principle enabling functional compassion is left out.

But yes, non violent demonstration and protest is the only road. However simply being non violent IS NOT ENOUGH!

The public must be shown that LAW is on the side of the protester. The oppressor now must show they are lawless and brutal IF they are going to violently retaliate against the protest.

Divide the oppression: By showing that you are on the side of LAW, and that the oppressors are just that, and unlawful, and brutal; those amongst them that are less so will distance themselves from the fascist tendency of violence.

Commend their positive action in some way no matter how limited its effect. Now the true oppressors are separated from those at least seriously misled.

A few points of strategy left out?

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Did you read the rest of his work that was linked to? He didn't limit their response to non violent protest. Read about all of MLK's action's and the positive results obtained.

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

I did, and the word "fear" showed 5 times, but not in a context that underlines its avoidance as specifically related to the beginning or final successes.

It would serve us well if constitutional law was specifically cited by King concerning the ideals of equality that he sought to make realities. Without that, we do not have the reference to authority of history as clearly delineated as it could be.

Now we can't just agree with King, because he didn't state it clearly as constitutional law, we have to agree with one another on a large scale and be able to back it with logical interpretation of the constitution that supports our definitions of its intent over those of the opposition.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

It doesn't take a document written over 200 years ago to tell us the difference between right and wrong in any circumstance that we might encounter. The framers themselves didn't understand the simple ideas of racial and gender equality that we take for granted today. We can't depend on their flawed authority and let it cripple our march toward justice.

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

It's not about knowing the "difference between right and wrong" its about agreeing on them and seeing that the constitution prevents the wrong while empowering the right.

The framers spents lots of time with the Iroquis nation, who imparted a great deal of the natural law and governmental structure used in forming the USA.

http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/EoL/chp6.html

There was a great deal more interaction than written history records, because filtering it is fairly easy compared to the oral histories of the indigenous. Particularly relating to the meaning of free speech to a peaceful and evolving civil society.

[-] 2 points by Shule (1976) 1 year ago

Now, when one is up against psychos who get their chuckles on watching others suffer, then what is to be done?

[-] 3 points by Narley (280) 1 year ago

Don’t be the aggressor. People will understand if you must defend yourself. The press will and the people will understand. Never agitate to the to the point where it looks like you picking a fight. Never threaten violence because it makes you the aggressor.

Peace and non-violence is more successful because people don’t feel threatened by it.

[-] 2 points by Shule (1976) 1 year ago

If one does not undermine the adversary in some way, (and throwing rocks and bullets is not what I mean,) the adversary then never will give in. There is such a thing called Active non-violence.

People do understand undermining evil. Given the situation, who really is the aggressor? Is not taking away people's livelihoods, peoples homes, people's jobs by creating economic circumstance not aggression? Are we not really defending, when we attempt to undermine those who create those conditions?

[-] 1 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

There is nothing "passive" about Non-violence. LMG suggested sticking gum on surveillence cameras whenever you got the chance. You could also right a letter to the IRS saying that you are no longer going to be paying taxes and then lay out your reasons. You could also simply refuse to drive a car fueled by petrol, instead take public transit or better yet walk places.

[-] 1 points by Shule (1976) 1 year ago

Yes, that is what I'm trying to say. Read my replies a few posts down.

If one is going to change things one will need to do more than silly acts like sticking gum in spy eyes though.

[-] 0 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

Action is the art of subtly and anonymity. Getting thrown in jail is probally inevitable, but not desirable.

Sticking gun on cameras is one of the best ideas i ve heard on this site. Protesing in front of wall street will only get you arrested and will likely convince no one.

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Putting a message on the palm of your hand is another good one too.

[-] 0 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

I like jaywalking....

[-] 0 points by Shule (1976) 1 year ago

Sticking gun ? I'm sure you meant gum? I guess a gun would work too.

If it doesn't take a long time to put the gum on the camera, and it takes a whole lot more time getting the gum back off, I suppose then there is merit in that.

[-] 0 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

Sticky keys..... ;)

[-] 2 points by Shule (1976) 1 year ago

must be the gum.

[-] 3 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Keep your focus on the goal, not the distraction.

[-] 2 points by Shule (1976) 1 year ago

They're chuckling.

And unless one figures out a way to put the hurtin' over on them, they'll keep on chuckling.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Let them.

[-] 2 points by Shule (1976) 1 year ago

And that is just it. We then never be free, and they keep on Chuckling.

There is such a thing as Active non-violence you know. Something that Gandhi does suggest and does prescribe. But that means doing more than just demonstrating one's own pain.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

I'm well aware of active non-violence. The goal is achieved with non cooperation, by boycott's, strikes, non payment of taxes, all are effective. Tyranny retreats only when it's forced to.

[-] 2 points by gsw (2693) 1 year ago

taco bell strikers are in the news: makin $7.50 (are they in in NYC doesn't add up )

somehow we should support them, join them

How could we help the workers? we should write letters to our newspaper

Shame on Taco Bell

[-] 4 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Do like DKA and GSW are saying below. Plus educate others to do the same.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (28308) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Fast food workers should unite. They are all getting the same raw deal.

[-] 3 points by gsw (2693) 1 year ago

that makes sense. everyone should understand that. we could boycott those that do not allow a union, and patronize those that do.

[-] 5 points by DKAtoday (28308) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Give business to those that treat their employees as people - with a living wage. Boycott those businesses that treat their employees as expendable/throw-aways.

[-] 4 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Exactly. I hope everyone here is already putting that into practice by boycotting Walmart and similar corporate giants.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Although admittedly, i have only written one letter to the editor defending OWS, this is an excellent way to progress this movement forward.

As here in the 'burbs anyone that can write a decent letter can usually get it in the paper

And the newspaper, i sent that letter to, and which I have had letters to in the past has a circulation of 100,000 plus

Right now, i am waiting for the opportunity to answer someone who has either criticized OWS, spews right-wing hatred, or something that relates to our struggle

Then if I follow through with it, I want put the letter up here as a thread

One small problem is that i rarely buy the paper because it is mostly BS, but I do have an older friend that does and she keeps a look-out for me, and gives me her paper when she is through with it usually. And i in turn I do stuff for her

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by gsw (2693) 1 year ago

Your paper isn't online? One May need a subscription to write a letter.

Nyt, Maybe needs to be a subscriber, I couldn't see where on the online paper to write one., for nyt.

I did write a letter to editor, For my local paper, but never saw it, they could have put it in some where I didnt see it, online, and I left template here, ages ago. Probably they buried it because mentioned the duopoly, and corporate media.

People are opinionated, and it seems they, the ones who talk the loudest, discourage freedom of thought and speech, even here. Like I thought such and such amendment was constitutional , so that was the constitutional intent--to add this amendment to the constitution. Now people say the states can't propose amendments, because it will allow koch bros to influence the delegates, and make the rewrite the constitution, which would go to the states, and the people, I imagine, or state legislatures.

Man, I'm off topic, don't know what thread I'm even on. Adios.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I think it is on line, but i have not went to it in quite a while

I've written probably 20 or so letters to the editor over the years, and I rarely had a subscription

I used to hand-write them and mail them off, but now for the last few years, I just email them in. They always call to verify that it was me who sent it too.

After a while, you know what you can get away with and what you cannot. Most have a 250-300 word limit. And I could see them burying your letter because of your outrageous "corporate media" attack...lolol

If you are not "opinionated," that probably not a good sign. And if some people have strong opinions, that does not mean that they are trying to silence your voice.

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by Shule (1976) 1 year ago

I never eat at Taco Bell, or any other national chain restaurant for that matter. I patronize only locally owned establishments.

That probably doesn't help Taco Bell workers in the long run 'cause I'm not giving the company they work for any business, but not only do the chain restaurants short change their employees, they exist primarily to suck money out of the towns they're located in which is good for nobody. (Their food is mostly bad and not good for you anyway.) Basically, they drive would be local business people out of business. Best bet is if the employees of national chain restaurants like Taco Bell simply quit and find employment elsewhere preferably at local establishments. Maybe start their own restaurants. (Keep protesting though.)

[-] 3 points by gsw (2693) 1 year ago

and you will live a long life if you keep that healthy habit up

[-] 1 points by Shule (1976) 1 year ago

I agree with that. That is what I'm saying. Notice there is a difference between what you're recommending here, and simple "non-violent demonstration", i.e. "sit and pout, and hope someone will sympathize with your pain."

The time for non-violent demonstration is over. The powers have not reacted. Time to be active; exercise active non-violence. Hopefully, the powers will come to their senses and heed.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Not sure where you get the idea that I'm promoting just simple non violent demonstration.

The author of this post, Martin Luther King surely didn't. He used numerous methods, strikes, marches, education, sit ins, and legislation. But most important, he forced the object of injustice out into the light, so that everyone could clearly see just how grotesque it's shape and how foul it's odor.

[-] 2 points by Shule (1976) 1 year ago

Sorry, if I mis-read you, but that is what I read out of excerpt (excerpts are always dangerous.) Main point is we do understand that it is Active Non-Violence that is required.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Completely agree. Non violent action directed at the heart of injustice.

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Coupling non violent demonstration with action of legal process is most effective. We have a special situation here in America with our social contract and its history, quite a bit deeper than most people are ready to admit.

Any way, if legal process is engaged with an entire movement supporting it, at critical points there need to be demonstrations. If they are VERY large, while the legal process is fundamental to the law of the land, media must report.

If they do not it is negligence, non feasance, mal feasance or even treason IF the demonstration is directly supporting the constitution with defense of its principles. This is a fact and those of ows need to understand it.

When the people agree upon constitutional intent, they have taken the reins. That will and must legally be taken notice by media. It's fundamental to the principles of this nation for such to be shared widely.

[-] 2 points by Shule (1976) 1 year ago

Does Occupy have a legal arm?

[-] 2 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

They get freebees from some organization that is limited to band-aid application. Protestors were defended. They won't discuss ART5.

I don't know about their arms, I know the 99% do not have what they need in activist organizations

[-] 1 points by Shule (1976) 1 year ago

That was about what I was thinking.

Didn't know about any Article 5 activity until you just brought it up. thanks.

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

There was a very proper effort put into finding one ows'er to stand at the GA back in February of 2012. Not one would stand and make it a demand.

This, despite the fact that a little education shows that ART5 is an Americans FIRST constitutional right, AND, we have been deprived of it for 100 years, AND, with it ALL demands can be met.

Uh, is this a mystery? Or, is ows mislead from the beginning in the classic marxist, "want to control a movement? Create and lead it".

I really bugs me that all of those sincere, but mislead people were deceived and mislead against their ultimate interests, and there is NO place to discuss it because of censorship, and hidden agenda with cognitive infiltrations constant.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

What woud you classify as "Active non-violnce?"

~Odin~

[-] 3 points by Shule (1976) 1 year ago

Good question;

My dictionary defines violence to be acts of swift and intense force, of injurious and destructive force, of unjust and vehement force, something done in anger. Non-violence then would be actions done without such character.

Active nonviolence is understood to be actions done against an adversary which do not have the character of violence.

Gandhi I suppose is the one who coined the term "active non-violence". When asked what he considered to be non-violence, Gandhi answered those actions which lead ultimately to happiness, or at least no ill feelings amongst all parties.

I take active nonviolence to mean those actions taken against an adversary, primarily to inhibit him, to punish him, or to force his hand in some way, done without anger or passion, with mind and fore thought, which produce no permanent injury or destruction, which in the end are expected to produce a just and equable result which can be acceptable to all parties.

Now, that can leave a lot open. That can mean to include say taking down a power line or something, so long as it produces a positive result and the power line can be put back, but I'm not going to say something like that is the most appropriate action given a situation. It can also mean taking legal actions against an adversary in a court.

And one should expect, an action which aims to undermine someone in someway even if it is nonviolent, could provoke a violent reaction by the one being undermined.

So, active non-violence borders into a gray area as to what it is and what it is not; which understandably would make many who are more fickle very apprehensive about such actions, but unfortunately recent history has proven more reserved acts do not sway those powers which presently rule over us. Wars are being made overseas. People here are losing their rights, homes, and livelihoods by political corruption and economic ploy. The violence of those empowered is already upon us, and thus they leave us little other option. But it is my sincere hope that before we slide too far down the slippery slope, the ruling powers will take heed, and start managing the world with some justice and compassion.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I also hope that we can avoid violence too, and by doing so at this point in our rev especially is very important for our recruiting efforts

I was in one protest in mid-town Manhattan where we had a NYPD escort making sure we stayed on the sidewalk. It ended in Bryant Park, or so they thought. Unbeknownst to the cops, we had agreed to leave the park going different ways (civilian), and meet up at the corner of 42nd St and......., where we no longer had that flaming escort. At that point we took to the streets, and....

Another time in lower Manhattan where many of the streets are very narrow, we had the NYPD mostly following us on scooters and in cruisers, so we turned down a one way street where they could not follow us

And another time i was in a wild protest march/run where there were two groups all the way from lower Manhattan to Times Square. The other group kept on the sidewalk, but not mine

They corralled us between two avenues on a side street, and told us we were going to get arrested, but we had enough space to intersperse with people coming out of stores who were not part of the protest, and even people who were part of it asked the cops what this was all about pretending they were civilians. So confused as to who was part of the protest and who wasn't, I guess, they let us go

Some of the cops understand the legitimacy of our struggle against this corrupt system that we all live under, but still i cannot see any of these three scenarios as being "acceptable," to them, or them being "happy" about it. You?

~Odin~

[-] 3 points by Shule (1976) 1 year ago

Of course if one goes out to befuddle someone else's modus, that someone is not going to be happy about it. Retribution should be expected. However, the key to all of it is that when it is all said and done, that the actions administered can one day be understood by the other side, and be forgiven. No permanent damage. It is very hard to forgive an action that results in say someone lying in a pool of blood. Those types of things need to be avoided.

As to the NYPD. I don't see them as being the real adversary in the first place. They are just some hired intermediaries doing what they are being told to do. I would work very hard to establish some sort of understandings with them, and focus in on the real adversaries like the corrupt politicians and the wall street banks. I'd be polite and nice to the cops although they might not be nice to you. Talk to them. I'd do my best to circumvent the NYPD, and avoid getting arrested. I do my deed, and not hang around long enough for the cops to show up. I like the actions you describe of dispersing before arrests can be made. Che Guevara wrote a good book "Guerrilla warfare". I don't recommend weapons. Che as a child of his environment wrote in the context of his time. However, the book gives one an idea of how to think.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

You're right, "retribution should be expected" in any kind of direct actions where you purposely disrupt the flow of commerce or whatever

And of course it is very hard to forgive when "somone is lying in a pool of blood." No one wants that.

And like I implied, some of the cops understand what this is all about and suport us in their hearts and minds. Others though are just assholes who are much like the ones mentioned in the Triangle fire news item

Since i am nearly twice as old as many of the people in these protests, i do my best to bring legitimacy to our cause by trimming my beard and dressing well....often tho with my Dad Of a Fordahm Grad tee shirt on, or wearing my Univesity of Alaska hoodie with Dad printed on it, and sometimes carrying a sign which says, I Am Here For My Granddaughter with her picuture on it, then asking What About YOU?

I also seek out non-confrontational, provoking, but amicable conversations with the police who are at orders most of the time not to talk to us. Once while in a protest involving the enormous student loan debt, I asked three cops if they thought that they would be able to pay off two college educations on their blue-collar salaries as my wife and I had. Two of them ignored me, and the other answered with his eyes. He understood, I know. And I have had other simular one sided conversations like this one.

You're also right to a degree, the police are not the real adversaries, but the fact remains that they are protecting the corrupt status quo and often by their over-bearing actions in trying to quell dissent. Their objective is to shut it down, plain and simple

And just as this system tries its best to ridicule and demonize us, some of them 'deserve' our wrath especially the ones who seem to be on steroids taking great delight in throwing people to the ground much harder than necessary while making an arrest for a non-violent action, or for just out and out lying in court which as been done numerous times

Getting arrested my friend is all part of our stuggle, and for me I know it is only a matter of time

~Odin~

[-] 4 points by Shule (1976) 1 year ago

Great to hear from you. We all need to keep trying. I hope others besides the two of us are reading this discussion.

(p.s. I've been arrested a couple times before, but I try my best to avoid it. I'm always nice to cops no matter what they do to me.)

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

You've been arrested for taking part in protests for Occupy? If so my friend, my hats off to you

Anyway, yes it has been a good discussion as it clears up some of the nuances on taking part in civil disobedience for our cause, and I too hope other people read this

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by Shule (1976) 1 year ago

Not for Occupy, but for protests nevertheless.

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Cool, my hat's off to you Shule

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

And dissidence is branded as terrorism, and your ass is grass for questioning authority.

I'm all for non-violence. I'm just left wondering how effective it can be.

[-] 4 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

You need to read a lot more about the civil rights struggle led by MLK, the farm workers struggle led by Caesar Chavez, and the independence of India from Great Britain led by Gandhi.

All successful and non violent. Once we resort to violence, we become the very evil we are fighting against.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I appreciate your concerns, and I'm familiar with those movements of which you speak.

The ball park has changed somewhat in the intervening years. Gone is the requirement to prove guilt, and gone is the habeas corpus fallback.

Indefinite detention without a warrant, based only on suspicion, is the reality we all face today.

Are you willing to sacrifice your whole life (nobody will even know you've been taken) without a struggle for your future freedom?

[-] 5 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

If I picked up a gun in self defense, it would guarantee my death. Not just a physical death by the far better equipped soldiers or officers, but by the loss of that tiny kernel of love that makes me human. Without that, I am just an animal.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I respect your wishes on this point.

I'm not espousing violence as a first option. I'm saying we've tried the sit and hope method, and got maced and incarcerated.

Civil disobedience needs to be a nationally orchestrated event to be worthwhile. Can we visual a method to galvanise the whole nation to take action on the same day?

[-] 4 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Occupy has been at it just over a year. The civil rights movement took a decade or more. We can't expect to have justice served up like fast food.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

It is difficult to say what will set this movement off whether it be a calamitous event, or the cumulative effect of the pain and injustices that many of us, or our loved ones have went or are going through

But the one big thing that we have to take into consideration is that we have young people who are driving this movement who seem to be very determined to me. They are the biggest asset that we have in this struggle

AS far as I can see in history, it is always the young (under 40) who drive these movements

~Odin~

[-] 3 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

I'm hoping the people will start paying attention soon. We're still at the edge of another meltdown with ever larger bets being taken in the derivatives market.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

All of us here i think are "hoping the people start paying attention soon."

But that derivatives nightmare either way is not going to disappear

I'm no eonomist, but maybe by keeping it hidden by the same people that caused it might be the main reason why they will fight for not changing a thing

It's only a matter of time though, i think

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Here's a cool site that has the best graphics clearly showing the enormous amounts of money involved in the derivative market. It's in notional dollars so it does over estimate the potential loss.

They also have a dozen other pages showing more economic dilemmas. Really a must see.

http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/derivatives/bank_exposure.html

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

If one city like NYC has a huge protest, it will spur other cities to do the same, which has been evident in our struggle, but we still do not to have near enough the critical mass that we need

Knowing that NY is a pivotal place in the success of this movement is why I chose to put most of my efforts up there

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

You know I'm backing you in every way I can, Odin.

If you're saying the pivotal place is right there, then I'm behind that decision.

What I'm not seeing here, is a focus on the massive demonstrations in European cities against these faux austerity measures.

What's needed is an expose on the offshoring of hard cash, that the EU needs to be targetting in their new dip and steal tactics on people's bank accounts. Why not start with all these offshore accounts? Unless, of course, you are protecting these offshore accounts, while pretending that the country is broke enough to steal ten percent off the workers.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I know you're backing us. We're all supporting each other in this struggle

I'm no expert on revolutions, but i am probably more observant to the movement itself than a lot of the other issues that are discussed on here, some of which I view as distractions

Many people here say we should concentrate our efforts on a single issue, but by doing that we lessen our chances of recruiting more people to our cause

As it is important for us to have empathy for the different plights and concerns of all people who have been adversely effected by unfettered, neoliberal capitalism,

As at some point these vicitms will realize that they are not alone, and the cause of their problems is only a symptom that is part of a much bigger problem, and that is a government that answers to corporate, and banking interests first and foremost

Why would you think I would want to protect these criminals?

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Interpretation must be at crossed purposes, here.

I know you'd not want to protect them at all.

[-] 6 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

My allegiance is to the people of the world who got screwed by the gangsters in Wall Street and the City Of London

~Odin~

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[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

AS it is now, with not nearly as many people in the streets as we need, I agree we will not invoke any real change

But when these demonstrations grow which inevitably they will, and tensions grow, then that is a different story

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

What is really needed, is widespread coverage of the street protests against austerity in all the other nations.

Americans (in general) think everything is hunky-dory or A-OK, when clearly it isn't.

And just keep the coverage of these events on an even keel. Getting all worked up and venting for the camera is what you do for school video. The true news journalist states facts, and shows reality. NO grandstanding. At all.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

That's the problem now, as unlike when we had an independent MSM, we now have extremely few 'true news journalists stating facts, and showing reality.'

But we do have social media which without that, we would be screwed

You're right in implying that most Americans don't know much about the upheval in the rest of the world

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by Narley (280) 1 year ago

Non-violence is more effective; at least at this stage. Any acts of violence will be seen as terrorism and the people will turn away. Not to mention you will probably get your ass beat pretty bad.

In order for violence to work the masses must be ready to take up arms and risk life and safety. OWS doesn’t yet have that level of support. Any violent acts now would bring the people down on our head.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

There should never be reason to take up arms in THIS country Narley

It is irresponsible of you to even suggest that

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by Narley (280) 1 year ago

Actually you are correct. I should have nit said that. Violence is never the way.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Thanks, I appreciate that.

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Picture America at the level of violence in Syria. I would rather stay in the frying pan than to jump into that fire.

[-] 1 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

Violence never works and should never ever be considered. You cant fight fire with fire. that's just physics.

[-] 1 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

non-violence is the most effective way to resist. violence is extremely extremely ineffective and will only cause more problems for yourself.

[-] -1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

There might be a lesson in there for congress.

But they don't listen to the people anyways.

[-] 0 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

that is why the people should start ignoring them.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

It's only fair, I guess.

Trouble is, they direct the private militia, sorry, police force.

[-] 2 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

the police are a glorified gang. call it what it is....

remember: violence is extremely ineffective.

the second they kill, we win!

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Paid thugs are what some of them are.

How much did Bloomberg give to the NYPD to bust up the campers?

Remember the Rodney King riots. You're right. We might need some martyrs.

[-] 1 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

No martyrs!!!

There is enough death already to go around!!

I have nothing against some individuals who have chose to become cops, my beef is with the institution.

[-] 3 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

It's clear that some cops don't like what's going down.

And then there's those who seem to get their kicks out of macing people, and smacking heads with truncheons.

When jobs are so scarce, like they are, the forces are the only choice for some people. Unfortunately, the job comes with a proviso of following orders.

[-] 1 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

Obediance is a virtue for most americans of any occupation. People are afraid to think for themselves.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

The suicide rates amongst foot soldiers are soaring.

That's one way out of the system, sad to say.

The bean counters are seeing this, and switching the focus to paid mercenaries.

[-] -1 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

Every single one of them signed up Vonluntarily. I feel sorry for them, but I dont feel bad.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

With 90 million unemployed, I'm thinking that a lot of volunteers had no other choice. It's not like having a university degree will get you a good job these days. Just a guaranteed debt that cannot ever be erased.

[-] 1 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

what were their choices? unemployment or forced enslavement?

Id choose unemployment over being forced by the goverment to go to a foreign country and kill in thier name.

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

(quote) what were their choices? unemployment or forced enslavement? Id choose unemployment over being forced by the goverment to go to a foreign country and kill in thier name. (unquote)

I do agree with your choice.

I don't agree that many volunteers had any other choice, but financial ruin, and abject poverty.

[-] 1 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

poverty is better than being in the military, by 900 trillion miles.

[-] 1 points by Narley (280) 1 year ago

Violence is rarely the answer. I won’t never because in some cases there is enough support for it to work. For instance fighting the Nazi’s in WWII. Normally violence begets more violence and continues to escalate until it’s out of control.

As violence pertains to OWS, acts of violence will alienate the masses. The black blocs breaking windows probably did more harm than good. OWS lost a lot of support from middle America. These days any acts of violence will be labeled as terrorism; and maybe rightfully so.

OWS violence would bring the hammer down on OWS by law enforcement and OWS would be vilified in the press as a terrorist group. Even some of the rowdy encampments were pitched in the press as just a bunch of hooligans. Violence is counterproductive. Don’t do it.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I agree Narley, we have to remain intensely peaceful at this point in particular

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

Violence is NEVER the answer.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

When someone says alter or abolish, how do you define abolish?

What is it precisely that you envision with abolish? How do you see that playing out?

[-] 0 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Are you replying to the right post?

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Yes, I am.

[-] -1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Have no idea what this is in reference to. The words in this post are not mine and the two words you mention are not found in it.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

It's not necessary for them to have been in the post.

It's a question. You hear the same words that I do. Can you put those words here and in line with the original post?

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

We must alter the heart of man, to choose love instead of hate, and abolish violence as the solution for every dispute.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

That's a lot of blah, blah, blah tentacle man. I'm asking a specific question. You either have the capacity to answer or you don't know how.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

It's the core message of both MLK and Gandhi and should be ours as well.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

It's only the gazillion time this has been discussed. My question still stands. Can you maintain this stance and abolish? If so, how do you envision that?

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Abolish what? Your sentence is missing a subject.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Alter or abolish, you know precisely what I am discussing. You are attempting to circumvent it.

Noted.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Are you referring to a document written 237 years ago?

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

I give up.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

How convenient.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Still waiting for the subject of your question.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

You have that. What I'm not going to do is bump up your repetitive bullshit thread, tentacle man.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

On second thought, I won't give up. What prevents you from including the subject with the question?

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I have repeatedly explained the question. You have repeatedly declined to answer it.

[-] -1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I like the question. Abolish?

I'd like to abolish the ability of our elected representatives to invest their own money on the stock market.

Why? Because insider trading is illegal in every other western nation. Why not yours?

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Yes, abolish. The alter or abolish fan club that is here.

You know precisely what I am talking about but, do you have an answer?

[-] 1 points by gsw (2693) 1 year ago

I like hr 29, and the boule amendment. Don't abolish our constitution, don't throw out the baby with dirty water, but it does need tweak,, which the founders provided for if you would see their debates on the constitution,

I am not implying abolish. My thread was just to see if there were ideas for a better system. No better system arose, except an amendment for boule.

Ahhhh I'm not supposed to bring that up I took vow of silence on it. Adios

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

G, thus far, you are the only person willing to attempt to answer my questions. I have two copies of the debates, Madison's Notes.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2693) 1 year ago

Just post the links and we can discuss the documents

[-] 1 points by gsw (2693) 1 year ago

Well librarians are trained to be helpful information seekers, even when we don't have the answers, we do have a process

[-] -1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I'm approaching the stage of high-speed DU direct injections.

Just awaiting project management approval, GF.

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