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Forum Post: Noam Chomsky on The Occupy Movement, movements in general - among other things (March 06 2012)

Posted 12 years ago on March 13, 2012, 5:15 p.m. EST by struggleforfreedom80 (6584)
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41 Comments

41 Comments


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[-] 2 points by JPB950 (2254) 12 years ago

A pleasant series of talks, but is there a point to be made?

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 12 years ago

Yeah, the point is "Oh Noam, you rule!" (Not)

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 12 years ago

Movements, even those that purport to be leaderless, seem to need someone to pull the strings for the followers.

[-] 0 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 12 years ago

Correct. Noam is not the one who should be doing that. Ken O'Keefe would be a better pick.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 12 years ago

No, that was not the point of these videos. Besides, we already know that Chomsky rules.

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 12 years ago

Why won't Chomsky face Palestinian BDS in debate/discussion? Why did he lie and say that BDS is not coming from the Palestinians themselves? Do you believe that Desmond Tutu and Elvis Costello are anti Semitic hypocrites?

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 12 years ago

It seems apparent from his interview he attacks these people because they do not do things they way he thinks they should be done. Pretty much a typical human response believing your way is the only way.

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 12 years ago

And when Noam says "my way or the highway"( you will never return to your homes in spite of international law) to organized Palestinian civil society, as he has, he compromises at the least any claim to being a friend of Palestinain rights.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 12 years ago

We probably all have that "my way..." attitude to some degree. I was surprised by his comment about the right of return though. I couldn't tell from the video if he believes it's totally unreasonable or just that Israel would never agree to it.

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 12 years ago

Well, the point of struggle is to get the other side to agree to what they never would agree to. Listen, Noam grew up in a left Zionist milieu, a group that advocated a bi national state (in words anyhow). He spent time on a kibbutz they had on stolen Arab land and fell in love with their rhetoric, and probably they talked some good shit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapam#Early_policy_towards_Arabs

But....

"At a Mapai Centre meeting, 24 July 1948, Ben Gurion accused Mapam of hypocrisy, citing events at Mishmar HaEmek, he said: "They faced a cruel reality ... [and] saw that there was [only] one way and that was to expel the Arab villagers and burn the villages. And they did this, And they were the first to do this."[6]

Mapam was also opposed to the establishment of settlements on Arab land. But this created a dilemma since Mapam was in the vanguard of the settlement movement. Of 12 new settlements created during May and June 1948 six were Mapam groups.[7] In August 1948 proposals were put forward for the creation of 32 new settlements, all but five of which were beyond the proposed UN partition frontier. As a compromise Mapam agreed on condition that there was sufficient "surplus land" at each location to allow for the return of the original inhabitants.[8] In the following months Mapam further diluted its position on the right of refugees to return by adding that there should be no return while a state of war existed and then it should only apply to the "peace-minded".[9] With the explosion of opposition to the Government's proposal to the UN, 28 July 1949, that 100,000 might be allowed to return, the issue of return quietly dropped off the agenda.[10]"

Mapam youth was called Hashomer Hatzair, Noam's alma mater. Could it be that Noam is nostalgic for a time when he worked on the kibbutz, talked all sort of socialist rhetoric with his comrades. A time when there was a vibrant left wing in the Jewish community and a sizable Jewish working class that is now almost totally gone? I wouldn't prosecute a man in his 80's who in his 20's and 30's was a Zionist just for that alone. But he seems to never really have left Mapam, though it left him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapam

This group ended up allied with the mainstream Labor Party which governed Israel .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Labor_Party#History

[-] 0 points by beenthereonce (-13) 12 years ago

And as Paul Harvey used to say, " and now we have the rest of the story". Paul Harvey, on the Muslim Religion - dogs are unclean and not allowed to travel in the same vehicle as the muslim. If this doesn't tick you off - nothing will - 'Bo', the Presidential Dog has never traveled in the same means of transportation WITH THE FIRST FAMILY.

Remember all the other Presidents with their dogs coming off the plane with them? Not the Obama's...!

Learn about Bo's vacation ----did you know the President flew the dog in on a separate smaller jet to Maine for their vacation? It is wondered if that sets well with all the unemployed hurting?

US citizens can't afford food, but we can pay for a dog to fly to Maine!!!!

The above is true, it was found and verified on the search engine Google - "Bo the dog flying to Maine". I got 76,700 references verifying it was true. Accordingly, they had to swallow their pride to use the Gulfstream, there wasn't enough room for the dog and his handler on Airforce 1.

Do you get it America, we are having a hard time getting out of these hard economic times while a dog and his handler get their own plane.

By the way, Mr Love, Bo's handler, is being paid $102,000 a year to take care of him.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 12 years ago

I have complaints about the presidents actions in his role as president. I'm unconcerned about his religious beliefs. I do agree it is difficult to see his wife take one plane and then him another a short time later. Then listen to him talk on economic issues. This kind of disconnect seems to run through all levels of government.

[-] 0 points by beenthereonce (-13) 12 years ago

I do not think it is right that the family pet be transported on a plane by itself to the same destination. Some say that Obama is paying for it but they do not stop to think that it is us that are paying for it because we are paying him

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 12 years ago

I certainly agree, I might go further and say that sending the wife and children off a day or two early then following on a separate jet also shows an extravagance that is not appropriate.

[-] 0 points by beenthereonce (-13) 12 years ago

He likes to talk big on "saving on resources, carbon footprint, etc" but this is doing just the opposite. I know that there have been other leaders that have done the same thing. Look at the former house speaker Nancy that took a jet from California to Washington to work, three days a week. A small jet was not good enough for her, so she got a 200 seat jet for herself. Thousands of gallons of fuel per week, to shuttle her back and fourth, pathetic. And she is also big into carbon footprints, Global warming, etc

[-] 0 points by JuanFenito (847) 12 years ago

The president pays that cost out of pocket for the dog handler, so calm down.

[-] -1 points by beenthereonce (-13) 12 years ago

But the dog cannot ride with the mooooooooooslim??????

[-] 0 points by JuanFenito (847) 12 years ago

I don't see a problem, he lets Michele ride with him when he takes air force one on joyride dates to New York. I don't think they would have a dog because dogs are unclean in islam.

[-] -1 points by beenthereonce (-13) 12 years ago

Maybe that is why he does not take his fat ass olady with him over there either. She would probably be unclean to the diaper heads to

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 12 years ago

Are these opinions you claim Chomsky has? If so please provide exact referrences and exact quotes, and if video: link and exact time.

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 12 years ago

http://mostlykosher.blogspot.com/2011/09/noam-chomsky-on-bds-not-what-you-expect.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=H5hY-gffV0M#t=53s

from zero to 1:07 asked about the Palestinian right of return as upheld by international law. First objection he voices "destruction of Israel".

1:13 -1:26 "the hypocrisy rises to heaven you know it's a hundred times worse in the United States or England or other countries"

Had this argument held during the international struggle against apartheid there would have been no boycott, no sanctions against South Africa.

1:35 "It's not a call from the Palestinian people, it's a call from groups who call themselves the Palestinian people"

1:58 - 2:16 "Even if it were, let's say it was.......... (Here Noam explains that he knows best what's good for the Palestinian people and for good measure what's best for the Somali people as well.)

2:28 "It's a gift to US and Israeli hardliners"

2:30 "They know perfectly well that there's not gonna be an implementation of the right to return."

International Law demands this implementation.

3:40 he tells us that the call for divestment from Israel is a mistake because it doesn't include a call for divestment from the United States- again with the hypocrisy accusation, again ridiculous and beside the point- the point is struggle against Israel!

I'd say this is really a silly argument on the chompster's part. By this logic, again, the campaign against South Africa was hypocritical. Occupying a Bank Of America but not a Citibank or Fed branch is also hypocritical- after all why should shareholders of one take a loss but not the others?

4:00 to 4:19- an interesting admission by the chompster. He was a professor at MIT which "took part" in the Vietnam war. One could find a lot about that and his own individual role (while he participated to some extent in protests against that war which was buttering his bread) if one wanted to thanks to the miracle of search engines, but no doubt you're not interested.

4:30- 4:40. BDS "could be attacked for pure anti Semitism, now unfortunately that was with justice."

This makes a good post!

http://occupywallst.org/forum/some-musings-of-the-great-noam-chomsky/

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 12 years ago

I don't see anywhere here that NC states that Desmond Tutu is an anti Semitic hypocrite.

He said "It's not a call from the Palestinian people, it's a call from groups who call themselves the Palestinian people"

not "BDS is not coming from the Palestinians themselves" which you said.

To my knowledge most palestinians don't support it.

In other words, there's nothing here that backs the claims you made above.

And if you stop with the ridicule and namecallings, and start debating in a civilized respectfull manner, that would be nice.

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 12 years ago

"I don't see anywhere here that NC states that Desmond Tutu is an anti Semitic hypocrite."

Not by name, of course that would be way over the top, but the cause and activity Tutu engages in that's called BDS...

The Palestinian people as individuals struggle for survival any way they can. Just like the South African workers had done while their unions, organizations leading members of society did ask the world to boycott South Africa. And the same arguments that you and Noam make against the call of organized South Africans- that they represented no one- were made then.

[-] 0 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 12 years ago

Palestinian Civil Society Calls for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions against Israel Until it Complies with International Law and Universal Principles of Human Rights

http://www.bdsmovement.net/call#.T2DiycUgc_c

9 July 2005

Click here for language versions: Arabic - Spanish – French – Italian - German – Hebrew

Click here to see the endorsements as of July 9, 2005

English:

One year after the historic Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) which found Israel’s Wall built on occupied Palestinian territory to be illegal; Israel continues its construction of the colonial Wall with total disregard to the Court’s decision. Thirty eight years into Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian West Bank (including East Jerusalem), Gaza Strip and the Syrian Golan Heights, Israel continues to expand Jewish colonies. It has unilaterally annexed occupied East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights and is now de facto annexing large parts of the West Bank by means of the Wall. Israel is also preparing – in the shadow of its lanned redeployment from the Gaza Strip – to build and expand colonies in the West Bank. Fifty seven years after the state of Israel was built mainly on land ethnically cleansed of its Palestinian owners, a majority of Palestinians are refugees, most of whom are stateless. Moreover, Israel’s entrenched system of racial discrimination against its own Arab-Palestinian citizens remains intact.

In light of Israel’s persistent violations of international law; and

Given that, since 1948, hundreds of UN resolutions have condemned Israel’s colonial and discriminatory policies as illegal and called for immediate, adequate and effective remedies; and

Given that all forms of international intervention and peace-making have until now failed to convince or force Israel to comply with humanitarian law, to respect fundamental human rights and to end its occupation and oppression of the people of Palestine; and

In view of the fact that people of conscience in the international community have historically shouldered the moral responsibility to fight injustice, as exemplified in the struggle to abolish apartheid in South Africa through diverse forms of boycott, divestment and sanctions; and

Inspired by the struggle of South Africans against apartheid and in the spirit of international solidarity, moral consistency and resistance to injustice and oppression;

We, representatives of Palestinian civil society, call upon international civil society organizations and people of conscience all over the world to impose broad boycotts and implement divestment initiatives against Israel similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era. We appeal to you to pressure your respective states to impose embargoes and sanctions against Israel. We also invite conscientious Israelis to support this Call, for the sake of justice and genuine peace.

These non-violent punitive measures should be maintained until Israel meets its obligation to recognize the Palestinian people’s inalienable right to self-determination and fully complies with the precepts of international law by:

  1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall
  2. Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and
  3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194.

Endorsed by:

The Palestinian political parties, unions, associations, coalitions and organizations below represent the three integral parts of the people of Palestine: Palestinian refugees, Palestinians under occupation and Palestinian citizens of Israel.

Unions, Associations, Campaigns

• Council of National and Islamic Forces in Palestine (Coordinating body for the major political parties in the Occupied Palestinian Territory)

• Palestinian Independent Commission for Citizen’s Rights (PICCR)

• Union of Arab Community Based Associations (ITTIJAH), Haifa

• Forum of Palestinian NGOs in Lebanon

• Palestinian General Federation of Trade Unions (PGFTU)

• General Union of Palestinian Women (GUPW)

• General Union of Palestinian Teachers (GUPT)

• Federation of Unions of Palestinian Universities’ Professors and Employees

• Consortium of Professional Associations

• Union of Palestinian Medical Relief Committees (UPMRC)

• Health Work Committees – West Bank

• Union of Agricultural Work Committees (UAWC)

• Union of Palestinian Agricultural Relief Committees (PARC)

• Union of Health Work Committees – Gaza (UHWC)

• Union of Palestinian Farmers

• Occupied Palestine and Syrian Golan Heights Advocacy Initiative (OPGAI)

• General Union of Disabled Palestinians

• Palestinian Federation of Women’s Action Committees (PFWAC)

• Palestinian Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel (PACBI)

• Palestinian Grassroots Anti-Apartheid Wall Campaign

• Union of Teachers of Private Schools

• Union of Women’s Work Committees, Tulkarem (UWWC)

• Dentists’ Association – Jerusalem Center

• Palestinian Engineers Association

• Lawyers’ Association

• Network for the Eradication of Illiteracy and Adult Education, Ramallah

• Coordinating Committee of Rehabilitation Centers – West Bank

• Coalition of Lebanese Civil Society Organizations (150 organizations)

• Solidarity for Palestinian Human Rights (SPHR), Network of Student-based Canadian University Associations

Refugee Rights Associations/Organizations

Al-Ard Committees for the Defense of the Right of Return, Syria

Al-Awda Charitable Society, Beit Jala

Al Awda – Palestine Right-to-Return Coalition, U.S.A

Al-Awda Toronto Aidun Group – Lebanon Aidun Group – Syria Alrowwad Cultural and Theatre Training Center, Aida refugee camp

Association for the Defense of the Rights of the Internally Displaced (ADRID), Nazareth

BADIL Resource Center for Palestinian Residency and Refugee Rights, Bethlehem

Committee for Definite Return, Syria Committee for the Defense of Palestinian Refugee Rights, Nablus

Consortium of the Displaced Inhabitants of Destroyed Palestinian Villages and Towns

Filastinuna – Commission for the Defense of the Right of Return, Syria

Handala Center, ‘Azza (Beit Jibreen) refugee camp, Bethlehem

High Committee for the Defense of the Right of Return, Jordan

(including personal endorsement of 71 members of parliament, political parties and unions in Jordan)

High National Committee for the Defense of the Right of Return , Ramallah

International Right of Return Congress (RORC)

Jermana Youth Forum for the Defense of the Right of Return, Syria

Laji Center, Aida camp, Bethlehem Local Committee for Rehabilitation, Qalandia refugee camp, Jerusalem

Local Committee for Rehabilitation of the Disabled, Deheishe refugee camp, Bethlehem

Palestinian National Committee for the Defense of the Right of Return, Syria

Palestinian Return Association, Syria Palestinian Return Forum, Syria Palestine Right-of-Return Coalition (Palestine, Arab host countries, Europe, North America)

Palestine Right-of-Return Confederation-Europe (Austria, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Sweden)

Palestinian Youth Forum for the Right of Return, Syria

PLO Popular Committees – West Bank refugee camps

PLO Popular Committees – Gaza Strip refugee camps

Popular Committee – al-’Azza (Beit Jibreen) refugee camp, Bethlehem

Popular Committee – Deheishe refugee camp, Bethlehem

Shaml – Palestinian Diaspora and Refugee Center, Ramallah

Union of Women’s Activity Centers – West Bank Refugee Camps

Union of Youth Activity Centers – Palestine Refugee Camps, West Bank and Gaza

Women’s Activity Center – Deheishe refugee camp, Bethlehem

Yafa Cultural Center, Balata refugee camp, Nablus

Organizations

Abna’ al-Balad Society, Nablus Addameer Center for Human Rights, Gaza

Addameer Prisoners’ Support and Human Rights Association, Ramallah

Alanqa’ Cultural Association, Hebron Al-Awda Palestinian Folklore Society, Hebron

Al-Doha Children’s Cultural Center, Bethlehem

Al-Huda Islamic Center, Bethlehem Al-Jeel al-Jadid Society, Haifa

Al-Karameh Cultural Society, Um al-Fahm

Al-Maghazi Cultural Center, Gaza Al-Marsad Al-Arabi, occupied Syrian Golan Heights

Al-Mezan Center for Human Rights, Gaza

Al-Nahda Cultural Forum, Hebron Al-Taghrid Society for Culture and Arts, Gaza

Alternative Tourism Group, Beit Sahour (ATG) Al-Wafa’ Charitable Society, Gaza Applied Research Institute Jerusalem (ARIJ)

Arab Association for Human Rights, Nazareth (HRA)

Arab Center for Agricultural Development (ACAD)

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 12 years ago

Arab Center for Agricultural Development-Gaza

Arab Educational Institute – Open Windows (affiliated with Pax Christie International)

Arab Orthodox Charitable Society – Beit Sahour

Arab Orthodox Charity – Beit Jala Arab Orthodox Club – Beit Jala Arab Orthodox Club – Beit Sahour Arab Students’ Collective, University of Toronto

Arab Thought Forum, Jerusalem (AFT)

Association for Cultural Exchange Hebron – France

Association Najdeh, Lebanon Authority for Environmental Quality, Jenin Bader Society for Development and Reconstruction, Gaza

Canadian Palestine Foundation of Quebec, Montreal

Center for the Defense of Freedoms, Ramallah

Center for Science and Culture, Gaza

Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Ramallah- Al-Bireh District

Child Development and Entertainment Center, Tulkarem

Committee for Popular Participation, Tulkarem Defense for Children International-Palestine Section, Ramallah (DCI/PS)

El-Funoun Palestinian Popular Dance Troupe

Ensan Center for Democracy and Human Rights, Bethlehem

Environmental Education Center, Bethlehem FARAH – Palestinian Center for Children, Syria

Ghassan Kanafani Society for Development, Gaza

Ghassan Kanafani Forum, Syria Gaza Community Mental Health Program, Gaza (GCMHP)

Golan for Development, occupied Syrian Golan Heights

Halhoul Cultural Forum, Hebron Himayeh Society for Human Rights, Um al-Fahm

Holy Land Trust – Bethlehem Home of Saint Nicholas for Old Ages – Beit Jala

Human Rights Protection Center, Lebanon In’ash al-Usrah Society, Ramallah International Center of Bethlehem (Dar An-Nadweh) Islah Charitable Society-Bethlehem Jafra Youth Center, Syria Jander Center, al-Azza (Beit Jibreen) refugee camp, Bethlehem

Jerusalem Center for Women, Jerusalem (JCW)

Jerusalem Legal Aid and Human Rights Center (JLAC )

Khalil Al Sakakini Cultural Center, Ramallah

Land Research Center, Jerusalem (LRC)

Liberated Prisoners’ Society, Palestine Local Committee for Social Development, Nablus

Local Committee for the Rehabilitation of the Disabled, Nablus

MA’AN TV Network, Bethlehem Medical Aid for Palestine, Canada MIFTAH-Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and Democracy, Ramallah

Muwatin-The Palestinian Institute for the Study of Democracy

National Forum of Martyr’s Families, Palestine

Near East Council of Churches Committee for Refugee Work – Gaza Area

Network of Christian Organizations – Bethlehem (NCOB)

Palestinian Council for Justice and Peace, Jerusalem

Palestinian Counseling Center, Jerusalem (PCC)

Palestinian Democratic Youth Union, Lebanon Palestinian Farmers’ Society, Gaza Palestinian Hydrology Group for Water and Environment Resources Development-Gaza

Palestinian Prisoners’ Society-West Bank Palestinian Society for Consumer Protection, Gaza

Palestinian University Students’ Forum for Peace and Democracy, Hebron

Palestinian Women’s Struggle Committees Palestinian Working Women Society for Development (PWWSD)

Popular Art Centre, Al-Bireh Prisoner’s Friends Association – Ansar Al-Sajeen, Majd al-Krum

Public Aid Association, Gaza Ramallah Center for Human Rights Studies

Saint Afram Association – Bethlehem Saint Vincent De Paule – Beit Jala Senior Citizen Society – Beit Jala Social Development Center, Nablus Society for Self-Development, Hebron Society for Social Work, Tulkarem Society for Voluntary Work and Culture, Um al-Fahm

Society of Friends of Prisoners and Detainees, Um al-Fahm

Sumoud-Political Prisoners Solidarity Group, Toronto

Tamer Institute for Community Education, Ramallah

TCC – Teacher’s Creativity Center, Ramallah Wi’am Center, Bethlehem Women’s Affairs Technical Committee, Ramallah and Gaza (WATC)

Women’s Studies Center, Jerusalem (WSC)

Women’s Center for Legal Aid and Counseling, Jerusalem (WCLAC)

Yafa for Education and Culture, Nablus

Yazour Charitable Society, Nablus YMCA-East Jerusalem Youth Cooperation Forum, Hebron YWCA-Palestine Zakat Committee-al-Khader, Bethlehen Zakat Committee-Deheishe camp, Bethlehem The Palestinian Center for Rapprochement between People (PCR) Alternative Voice in the Galilee (AVIG) Back to top

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 12 years ago

http://www.bdsmovement.net/call#Endorsed_by:

The Palestinian political parties, unions, associations, coalitions and organizations below represent the three integral parts of the people of Palestine: Palestinian refugees, Palestinians under occupation and Palestinian citizens of Israel.

Unions, Associations, Campaigns

• Council of National and Islamic Forces in Palestine (Coordinating body for the major political parties in the Occupied Palestinian Territory)

• Palestinian Independent Commission for Citizen’s Rights (PICCR)

• Union of Arab Community Based Associations (ITTIJAH), Haifa

• Forum of Palestinian NGOs in Lebanon

• Palestinian General Federation of Trade Unions (PGFTU)

• General Union of Palestinian Women (GUPW)

• General Union of Palestinian Teachers (GUPT)

• Federation of Unions of Palestinian Universities’ Professors and Employees

• Consortium of Professional Associations

• Union of Palestinian Medical Relief Committees (UPMRC)

• Health Work Committees – West Bank

• Union of Agricultural Work Committees (UAWC)

• Union of Palestinian Agricultural Relief Committees (PARC)

• Union of Health Work Committees – Gaza (UHWC)

• Union of Palestinian Farmers

• Occupied Palestine and Syrian Golan Heights Advocacy Initiative (OPGAI)

• General Union of Disabled Palestinians

• Palestinian Federation of Women’s Action Committees (PFWAC)

• Palestinian Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel (PACBI)

• Palestinian Grassroots Anti-Apartheid Wall Campaign

• Union of Teachers of Private Schools

• Union of Women’s Work Committees, Tulkarem (UWWC)

• Dentists’ Association – Jerusalem Center

• Palestinian Engineers Association

• Lawyers’ Association

• Network for the Eradication of Illiteracy and Adult Education, Ramallah

• Coordinating Committee of Rehabilitation Centers – West Bank

• Coalition of Lebanese Civil Society Organizations (150 organizations)

• Solidarity for Palestinian Human Rights (SPHR), Network of Student-based Canadian University Associations

Refugee Rights Associations/Organizations

Al-Ard Committees for the Defense of the Right of Return, Syria

Al-Awda Charitable Society, Beit Jala

Al Awda – Palestine Right-to-Return Coalition, U.S.A

Al-Awda Toronto Aidun Group – Lebanon Aidun Group – Syria Alrowwad Cultural and Theatre Training Center, Aida refugee camp

Association for the Defense of the Rights of the Internally Displaced (ADRID), Nazareth

BADIL Resource Center for Palestinian Residency and Refugee Rights, Bethlehem

Committee for Definite Return, Syria Committee for the Defense of Palestinian Refugee Rights, Nablus

Consortium of the Displaced Inhabitants of Destroyed Palestinian Villages and Towns

Filastinuna – Commission for the Defense of the Right of Return, Syria

Handala Center, ‘Azza (Beit Jibreen) refugee camp, Bethlehem

High Committee for the Defense of the Right of Return, Jordan

(including personal endorsement of 71 members of parliament, political parties and unions in Jordan)

High National Committee for the Defense of the Right of Return , Ramallah

International Right of Return Congress (RORC)

Jermana Youth Forum for the Defense of the Right of Return, Syria

Laji Center, Aida camp, Bethlehem Local Committee for Rehabilitation, Qalandia refugee camp, Jerusalem

Local Committee for Rehabilitation of the Disabled, Deheishe refugee camp, Bethlehem

Palestinian National Committee for the Defense of the Right of Return, Syria

Palestinian Return Association, Syria Palestinian Return Forum, Syria Palestine Right-of-Return Coalition (Palestine, Arab host countries, Europe, North America)

Palestine Right-of-Return Confederation-Europe (Austria, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Sweden)

Palestinian Youth Forum for the Right of Return, Syria

PLO Popular Committees – West Bank refugee camps

PLO Popular Committees – Gaza Strip refugee camps

Popular Committee – al-’Azza (Beit Jibreen) refugee camp, Bethlehem

Popular Committee – Deheishe refugee camp, Bethlehem

Shaml – Palestinian Diaspora and Refugee Center, Ramallah

Union of Women’s Activity Centers – West Bank Refugee Camps

Union of Youth Activity Centers – Palestine Refugee Camps, West Bank and Gaza

Women’s Activity Center – Deheishe refugee camp, Bethlehem

Yafa Cultural Center, Balata refugee camp, Nablus

Organizations

Abna’ al-Balad Society, Nablus Addameer Center for Human Rights, Gaza

Addameer Prisoners’ Support and Human Rights Association, Ramallah

Alanqa’ Cultural Association, Hebron Al-Awda Palestinian Folklore Society, Hebron

Al-Doha Children’s Cultural Center, Bethlehem

Al-Huda Islamic Center, Bethlehem Al-Jeel al-Jadid Society, Haifa

Al-Karameh Cultural Society, Um al-Fahm

Al-Maghazi Cultural Center, Gaza Al-Marsad Al-Arabi, occupied Syrian Golan Heights

Al-Mezan Center for Human Rights, Gaza

Al-Nahda Cultural Forum, Hebron Al-Taghrid Society for Culture and Arts, Gaza

Alternative Tourism Group, Beit Sahour (ATG) Al-Wafa’ Charitable Society, Gaza Applied Research Institute Jerusalem (ARIJ)

Arab Association for Human Rights, Nazareth (HRA)

Arab Center for Agricultural Development (ACAD)

Arab Center for Agricultural Development-Gaza

Arab Educational Institute – Open Windows (affiliated with Pax Christie International)

Arab Orthodox Charitable Society – Beit Sahour

Arab Orthodox Charity – Beit Jala Arab Orthodox Club – Beit Jala Arab Orthodox Club – Beit Sahour Arab Students’ Collective, University of Toronto

Arab Thought Forum, Jerusalem (AFT)

Association for Cultural Exchange Hebron – France

Association Najdeh, Lebanon Authority for Environmental Quality, Jenin Bader Society for Development and Reconstruction, Gaza

Canadian Palestine Foundation of Quebec, Montreal

Center for the Defense of Freedoms, Ramallah

Center for Science and Culture, Gaza

Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Ramallah- Al-Bireh District

Child Development and Entertainment Center, Tulkarem

Committee for Popular Participation, Tulkarem Defense for Children International-Palestine Section, Ramallah (DCI/PS)

El-Funoun Palestinian Popular Dance Troupe

Ensan Center for Democracy and Human Rights, Bethlehem

Environmental Education Center, Bethlehem FARAH – Palestinian Center for Children, Syria

Ghassan Kanafani Society for Development, Gaza

Ghassan Kanafani Forum, Syria Gaza Community Mental Health Program, Gaza (GCMHP)

Golan for Development, occupied Syrian Golan Heights

Halhoul Cultural Forum, Hebron Himayeh Society for Human Rights, Um al-Fahm

Holy Land Trust – Bethlehem Home of Saint Nicholas for Old Ages – Beit Jala

Human Rights Protection Center, Lebanon In’ash al-Usrah Society, Ramallah International Center of Bethlehem (Dar An-Nadweh) Islah Charitable Society-Bethlehem Jafra Youth Center, Syria Jander Center, al-Azza (Beit Jibreen) refugee camp, Bethlehem

Jerusalem Center for Women, Jerusalem (JCW)

Jerusalem Legal Aid and Human Rights Center (JLAC )

Khalil Al Sakakini Cultural Center, Ramallah

Land Research Center, Jerusalem (LRC)

Liberated Prisoners’ Society, Palestine Local Committee for Social Development, Nablus

Local Committee for the Rehabilitation of the Disabled, Nablus

MA’AN TV Network, Bethlehem Medical Aid for Palestine, Canada MIFTAH-Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and Democracy, Ramallah

Muwatin-The Palestinian Institute for the Study of Democracy

National Forum of Martyr’s Families, Palestine

Near East Council of Churches Committee for Refugee Work – Gaza Area

Network of Christian Organizations – Bethlehem (NCOB)

Palestinian Council for Justice and Peace, Jerusalem

Palestinian Counseling Center, Jerusalem (PCC)

Palestinian Democratic Youth Union, Lebanon Palestinian Farmers’ Society, Gaza Palestinian Hydrology Group for Water and Environment Resources Development-Gaza

Palestinian Prisoners’ Society-West Bank Palestinian Society for Consumer Protection, Gaza

Palestinian University Students’ Forum for Peace and Democracy, Hebron

Palestinian Women’s Struggle Committees Palestinian Working Women Society for Development (PWWSD)

Popular Art Centre, Al-Bireh Prisoner’s Friends Association – Ansar Al-Sajeen, Majd al-Krum

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[-] 0 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 12 years ago

I don't get it. Those were differnet questions which NC answered. What do mean?

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 12 years ago

I mean other then simply stating some on Noam Chomsky's speculations and opinions, what purpose is this post meant to serve? Do you you have any opinions of your own?

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 12 years ago

"I mean other then simply stating some on Noam Chomsky's speculations and opinions, what purpose is this post meant to serve?"

Nothing more than that.

"Do you you have any opinions of your own?"

Lots! I've written many of them down here: http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 12 years ago

Seems that the site with your opinions opens with two Chomsky videos. I take it to mean your opinions coincide with his in just about any detail then?

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 12 years ago

I have no idea how much they concide in detail, and I don't care. The videos from the Chomsky/Foucault debate were very relevant to the article; that's why they're there. Did you like the articles and the videos? If not do you have any couter argumnets?

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 12 years ago

I don’t see the point of counter arguments, you are a believer, I am not. I don’t see any evidence of the level of altruism necessary for an anarchistic socialism to work, Chomsky has a different belief, but that’s all we have beliefs.

The only libertarian socialist society we have to look at in the 1930’s was put in by force, not by popular vote, with the use of money banned under penalty of death. Not exactly a sterling example of egalitarian democracy. The anarchists then had to resort to a voucher system to replace currency, to prove people had done their work in order to get food, which casts doubt on the willingness of the participants to work for the common good. It didn't last long enough to judge it an economic success or failure, but the use of force gives me doubts it could work in the long run.

You’re certainly free to pursue it, maybe it’s possible to bring it back from obscurity to the 3 or 4% level of popular support it enjoyed at it’s peek a century ago.

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 12 years ago

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (1321) 21 hours ago We probably all have that "my way..." attitude to some degree. I was surprised by his comment about the right of return though. I couldn't tell from the video if he believes it's totally unreasonable or just that Israel would never agree to it. ↥like ↧dislike reply permalink [-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (378) from Bronx, NY 1 minute ago Well, the point of struggle is to get the other side to agree to what they never would agree to. Listen, Noam grew up in a left Zionist milieu, a group that advocated a bi national state (in words anyhow). He spent time on a kibbutz they had on stolen Arab land and fell in love with their rhetoric, and probably they talked some good shit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapam#Early_policy_towards_Arabs But.... "At a Mapai Centre meeting, 24 July 1948, Ben Gurion accused Mapam of hypocrisy, citing events at Mishmar HaEmek, he said: "They faced a cruel reality ... [and] saw that there was [only] one way and that was to expel the Arab villagers and burn the villages. And they did this, And they were the first to do this."[6] Mapam was also opposed to the establishment of settlements on Arab land. But this created a dilemma since Mapam was in the vanguard of the settlement movement. Of 12 new settlements created during May and June 1948 six were Mapam groups.[7] In August 1948 proposals were put forward for the creation of 32 new settlements, all but five of which were beyond the proposed UN partition frontier. As a compromise Mapam agreed on condition that there was sufficient "surplus land" at each location to allow for the return of the original inhabitants.[8] In the following months Mapam further diluted its position on the right of refugees to return by adding that there should be no return while a state of war existed and then it should only apply to the "peace-minded".[9] With the explosion of opposition to the Government's proposal to the UN, 28 July 1949, that 100,000 might be allowed to return, the issue of return quietly dropped off the agenda.[10]" Mapam youth was called Hashomer Hatzair, Noam's alma mater. Could it be that Noam is nostalgic for a time when he worked on the kibbutz, talked all sort of socialist rhetoric with his comrades. A time when there was a vibrant left wing in the Jewish community and a sizable Jewish working class that is now almost totally gone? I wouldn't prosecute a man in his 80's who in his 20's and 30's was a Zionist just for that alone. But he seems to never really have left Mapam, though it left him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapam This group ended up allied with the mainstream Labor Party which governed Israel . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Labor_Party#History

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 12 years ago

ok, let's deal with this.

I can see that you're very passionate about the Palestine/Israel issue. Where exactly do you stand on this issue. What would you like to see happening?

I am a strong supporter of the Palestinians, and I strongly oppose the illegal israeli occupation condemned by the UN. This is also Chomsky's view. Not exactly very controversial...so what's going on? Why are you so upset?

[-] 2 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 12 years ago

My position is 100% in favor of Palestinian self determination. The land between the river and the sea is Palestine. Okay, so now what about all these Jewish people who are there?

Well, ultimately they are going to have to come to terms with the fact that they are on stolen land. It is my hope that if they make efforts to be good neighbors (for example like the Jewish Israelis who support BDS at great personal risk, and those who demonstrate against the wall) perhaps maybe something can be worked out whereby they stay in peace, but not as rulers.

Electronic intifada, a Palestinian website, carried this article about a possible "solution" based on the Irish agreement. It is a response to Norman Finkelstein who is close personally and politically to Chomsky.

http://www.bdsmovement.net/2012/finkelstein-bds-and-the-destruction-of-israel-8718#.T2OQ5cUgc_c

This excerpt is interesting:

A two-state solution in Ireland

In 1998, Unionists and Nationalists signed the Belfast Agreement. It established, in effect, a bi-national state in Northern Ireland where Irish nationalists share power with pro-British unionists.

It did not abolish Northern Ireland, but it did banish, once and for all, the “Protestant state” and enshrined equality as a fundamental principle.

The agreement notably does not resolve whether the six counties that form Northern Ireland should remain part of the United Kingdom or rejoin a united Ireland, but it establishes principles and mechanisms for determining where sovereignty should lie and what would happen if it changes.

Crucially, it the agreement states whether Northern Ireland remains part of the UK, or becomes part of a united Ireland,

“the power of the sovereign government with jurisdiction there shall be exercised with rigorous impartiality on behalf of all the people in the diversity of their identities and traditions and shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos, and aspirations of both communities.”

Northern Ireland has no ‘right to exist’

This was made possible because the British effectively abandoned any claim that Northern Ireland as an entity had a “right” to exist. A breakthrough moment came in 1992 when the UK Secretary of State for Northern Ireland conceded that “provided it is advocated constitutionally, there can be no proper reason for excluding any political objective from discussion. Certainly not the objective of a united Ireland…”

As part of the agreement, nationalists conceded that the reunification of Ireland could only come about by the consent of a majority in Northern Ireland.

Consequently, the Belfast Agreement did not recognise any separate right to self-determination for unionists as unionists or Protestants as Protestants that would be analogous to a specifically Jewish right to self-determination within historic Palestine.

Unionists enjoy the right to participate in self-determination, along with nationalists, as legitimate residents of the territory. No more, no less.

Freedom of movement and citizenship

There is complete freedom of movement, residency and cross-border employment (something guaranteed in any case under European Union rules) between the two jurisdictions on the island of Ireland and the right to full citizenship in either or both states. Moreover, such citizenship cannot be revoked from any person even if the status of Northern Ireland changes. There is nothing to stop Catholics moving north or Protestants moving south.

In order to reverse the long history of discrimination, public bodies and officials in Northern Ireland are under a statutory obligation to promote equality among individuals and communities, and safeguards enacted in British and Irish law are designed to ensure that practices conform to European and international human rights standards. Employment anti-discrimination measures in Northern Ireland are strictly enforced, and although Catholics are still, on average, poorer than Protestants, the gap has narrowed.

A form of 1980s solidarity activism in the United States – somewhat analogous to BDS – demanded that US firms doing business in Northern Ireland adhere to the MacBride Principles, which forbid any form of sectarian discrimination.

A model for historic Palestine?

The Belfast Agreement preserves an existing “two-state solution” in Ireland unless and until people in both jurisdictions choose any other arrangement. But in the meantime, it required one of the states – Northern Ireland – to transform into an inclusive democracy from an oppressive ethnocracy. The agreement also required the Republic of Ireland to strengthen its own human rights and equality guarantees.

So if Northern Ireland is the model, how would it transpose to Palestine? Clearly, Israel would have to become, like Northern Ireland, a bi-national state with strict equality and full representation for all citizens. All laws privileging Jews would have to be abolished and strong measures taken to redress historic and present injustices and prevent future discrimination. A Palestinian state would have to be no less committed to equality.

There would be complete freedom of movement and residency between Israel and the Palestinian state, and because ethnic and racial privileges would have to be abolished, Palestinian refugees could exercise their right to return to the state of their choice and gain citizenship in either.

The Republic of Ireland grants citizenship to any person from abroad with one grandparent born in Ireland, regardless of religion or ethnic background. A similar law could replace Israel’s racist “Law of Return” that grants citizenship only to Jews while discriminating against Palestinians.

Jews would have no separate right of self-determination, but like Protestants in Northern Ireland, would enjoy full democratic rights to participate in self-determination as residents of the territory.

All these principles underpin the Belfast Agreement and yet they did not mean the “destruction of Northern Ireland”. What they rightly did away with is ethno-religious privileges for Protestants at the expense of Catholics.

“If Finkelstein and Zionists cannot accept a two-state solution on these terms, then we know it is not the number of states that concerns them.”

So the question then for Norman Finkelstein and Zionists who are horrified by the idea of a one-state solution, is: could they accept two states on such terms? If the answer is yes, then it is clear that the BDS call is completely compatible with a two-state solution, and Finkelstein should withdraw his claim that this is mere deception.

If Finkelstein and Zionists cannot accept a two-state solution on these terms, then we know it is not the number of states that concerns them. Rather, their priority is to preserve racial and colonial privileges for Jews at the expense of fundamental Palestinian rights.

That is something Palestinians and their allies, as with nationalists in Northern Ireland, can never – and must never – accept, no matter how many states exist in their respective homelands."

Again to me it's up to the Palestinians in the end not you and me or Norman Finkelstein or Noam Chomsky. "Realists" may say that Israel is too strong, so there can never be a right of return for Palestinians regardless of international law. I point to the tide sweeping the Arab world. Israelis will not forever be dominant. The sooner they come to terms the better for them.

I provided you with a list of Palestinian organizations that support BDS. Can't you agree that Chomsky's remarks that the Palestinians themselves don't support BDS and that those Palestinians who do represent no one was quite insulting?

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 12 years ago

I think we should support the 1967 boarders. Israel is now an established country. But, yes, it's up to the people living there (including the jews) how they want to organize; but first things first: end the occupation.

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 12 years ago

BDS is pushing for the rule of law in all of Palestine, and the lawful right of return for the Palestinian people, the majority of whom are exiled from that land. It neither calls for nor contradicts a two state solution.

You can't get to why Noam so viciously attacks BDS and anyone who breathes a word regarding the Israel Lobby. I think we're all talked out.