Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: Re. Banks : "Money, Inflation, Fraud & Slavery - Even a Child Can Understand It !" by Ellen Brown.

Posted 2 years ago on May 30, 2012, 9:41 p.m. EST by shadz66 (19985)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Money, Inflation, Fraud and Slavery - Even a Child Can Understand It !!!

A Monetary Policy for the 99% : Twelve-Year-Old Reformer Goes Viral.

by Ellen Brown

May 30, 2012 "Information Clearing House" ( http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ ) ---

The 'YouTube' video of 12 year old Victoria Grant speaking at the Public Banking in America conference last month has gone viral, topping a million views on various websites.

Monetary reform—the contention that governments, not banks, should create and lend a nation’s money—has rarely even made the news, so this is a first. Either the times they are a-changin’, or Victoria managed to frame the message in a way that was so simple and clear that even a child could understand it.

Basically, her message was that banks create money “out of thin air” and lend it to people and governments at interest. If governments borrowed from their own banks, they could keep the interest and save a lot of money for the taxpayers.

She said her own country of Canada actually did this, from 1939 to 1974. During that time, the government’s debt was low and sustainable, and it funded all sorts of remarkable things. Only when the government switched to borrowing privately did it acquire a crippling national debt.

Borrowing privately means selling bonds at market rates of interest (which in Canada quickly shot up to 22%), and the money for these bonds is ultimately created by private banks. For the latter point, Victoria quoted Graham Towers, head of the Bank of Canada for the first twenty years of its history. He said :

  • "Each and every time a bank makes a loan, new bank credit is created — new deposits — brand new money. Broadly speaking, all new money comes out of a Bank in the form of loans. As loans are debts, then under the present system all money is debt."

Towers was asked, “Will you tell me why a government with power to create money, should give that power away to a private monopoly, and then borrow that which parliament can create itself, back at interest, to the point of national bankruptcy?” He replied, “If Parliament wants to change the form of operating the banking system, then certainly that is within the power of Parliament.”

In other words, said Victoria, “If the Canadian government needs money, they can borrow it directly from the Bank of Canada. The people would then pay fair taxes to repay the Bank of Canada. This tax money would in turn get injected back into the economic infrastructure and the debt would be wiped out. Canadians would again prosper with real money as the foundation of our economic structure and not debt money. Regarding the debt money owed to the private banks such as the Royal Bank, we would simply have the Bank of Canada print the money owing, hand it over to the private banks, and then clear the debt to the Bank of Canada.”

Problem solved; case closed.

But critics said, “Not so fast.” Victoria might be charming, but she was naïve.

One critic was William Watson, writing in the Canadian newspaper The National Post in an article titled “No, Victoria, There Is No Money Monster.” Interestingly, he did not deny Victoria’s contention that “When you take out a mortgage, the bank creates the money by clicking on a key and generating ‘fake money out of thin air.’” Watson acknowledged :

  • "Well, yes, that’s true of any “fractional-reserve” banking system. Even before they were regulated, even before there was a Bank of Canada, banks understood they didn’t have to keep reserves equal to the total amount of money they’d lent out: They could count on most depositors most of the time not showing up to take out their money all at once. Which means, as any introduction to monetary economics will tell you, banks can indeed “create” money."

What he disputed was that the Canadian government’s monster debt was the result of paying high interest rates to banks. Rather, he said :

  • "We have a big public debt because, starting in the early 1970s and continuing for three full decades, our governments spent more on all sorts of things, including interest, than they collected in taxes. . . . The problem was the idea, still widely popular, from the Greek parliament to the streets of Montreal, that governments needn’t pay their bills."

That contention is countered, however, by the Canadian government’s own Auditor General (the nation’s top accountant, who reviews the government’s books). In 1993, the Auditor General noted in his annual report :

  • "[The] cost of borrowing and its compounding effect have a significant impact on Canada’s annual deficits. From Confederation up to 1991-92, the federal government accumulated a net debt of $423 billion. Of this, $37 billion represents the accumulated shortfall in meeting the cost of government programs since Confederation.* The remainder, $386 billion, represents the amount the government has borrowed to service the debt created by previous annual shortfalls!"

In other words, 91% of the debt consists of compounded interest charges. Subtract those and the government would have a debt of only C$37 billion, very low and sustainable, just as it was before 1974.

Mr. Watson’s final argument was that borrowing from the government’s own bank would be inflationary. He wrote :

  • "Victoria’s solution is that instead of paying market rates the government should borrow directly from the Bank of Canada and pay only token rates of interest. Because the government owns the bank, the tax revenues it raises in order to pay that interest would then somehow be injected directly back into the economy. In other words, money literally printed to cover the government’s deficit would be put into circulation. But how is that not inflationary ?"

Let’s see. The government can borrow money that ultimately comes from private banks, which admittedly create it out of thin air, and soak the taxpayers for a whopping interest bill; or it can borrow from its own bank, which also creates the money out of thin air, and avoid the interest.

Even a 12 year old can see how this argument is going to come out.

~

at spes non fracta ...

~

Ellen Brown is an attorney and the author of eleven books, including "Web of Debt: The Shocking Truth About Our Money System and How We Can Break Free". Her websites are webofdebt.com and ellenbrown.com. She is also chairman of the Public Banking Institute.

[Article copied verbatim under "Fair Use" from : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31456.htm & please see here for embedded links.]

226 Comments

226 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 5 points by JackHall (412) 2 years ago

Brilliant. Compounding interest creates inflation. A 30 year $100,000 loan at 5% interest will cost over $190,000. That is $90,000+ debt siphoned out of the economy over a 30 year period that did not create anything.

The Federal Reserve should be financing public sector job creation by funding job prograns out of thin air while the treasury collects income tax on it and the economy is stimulated.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

You are succinct and hit the nail sweetly and squarely on the head !

"Usurious Compound Interest" is the key to our enslavement and root of the problem. It is a mechanism of 'Capital and Wealth Extraction and Accumulation' and underpins The 'Hoover Up' Crapitalism which we now labour under and chaff against !!

The FED should be an arm of The Democratic Nation and NOT 'The Cartel of Private Banking Corporations' which is clearly the case now !!!

ad iudicium ...

[-] 4 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

Glad to see Brown's Web of Debt is still being discussed shadz. I got a copy months ago, read about halfway through it (it's basically a giant history lesson of how central banking came about), but then got sidetracked and never finished it.

Think I'll swing back and pick it up again and finish it. From what I read of it, it is absolutely excellent and deserves a very wide read.

I wish they would do a documentary based on her book. Do you know if anyone ever did?

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

"Seven Largest U.S. Banks Have Created Thousands Of Subsidiaries To Avoid Taxes" :

Just when you might think that a sense of 'Outrage' can not be more justified !!!

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

From the article -->> Thirty of America's most profitable companies didn't pay anything in income taxes from 2008 to 2010, according to a November report from the Citizens for Tax Justice. In addition, wealthy people and their families hold between $21 and $32 trillion, or between 30 and 46 percent of global GDP, in offshore tax havens...

Al Capone was thrown into Alcatraz for income-tax evasion. So why aren't these people thrown into Leavenworth? Additionally, Al Capone and other gangsters of his era never crashed the world economy. These people do far worse damage than he ever did. WTF???

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Re. 'Corporate Tax Dodgers', I append the actual report and a small article about the report which you reference in your heartfelt comment :

fiat justitia ...

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Re. 'The Parasitic Bankster Class' :

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Ellen Brown's work on the matter of Debt and Financial Crimes is second to none and if there isn't a documentary film based on it - there sure ought to be !

"Web of Debt" ( http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/reprints/April_Brown.pdf ) is her 11th book I believe and one I plan to get to go with my very recently acquired "Debt : The First 5,000 Years" by David Graeber. You are absolutely right 'Ud', to highlight her book and I append some more of her excellent analysis and an synopsis of "WoD" by her, here below :

fiat lux ...

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Occupy The SEC ( http://www.occupythesec.org/ ) is a critical, technical arm of "Occupy" & well worth consideration. I can not speak highly enough of these dedicated young people.

I also copy here, a few words by Noam Chomsky - "On Banks" :

"Before the 1970s, banks were banks. They did what banks were supposed to do in a state capitalist economy: they took unused funds from your bank account, for example, and transferred them to some potentially useful purpose like helping a family buy a home or send a kid to college. That changed dramatically in the 1970s. Until then, there had been no financial crises since the Great Depression. The 1950s and 1960s had been a period of enormous growth, the highest in American history, maybe in economic history.

"And it was egalitarian. The lowest quintile did about as well as the highest quintile. Lots of people moved into reasonable lifestyles -- what’s called the “middle class” here, the “working class” in other countries -- but it was real. And the 1960s accelerated it. The activism of those years, after a pretty dismal decade, really civilized the country in lots of ways that are permanent.

"When the 1970s came along, there were sudden and sharp changes: de-industrialization, the off-shoring of production, and the shift to financial institutions, which grew enormously. I should say that, in the 1950s and 1960s, there was also the development of what several decades later became the high-tech economy: computers, the Internet, the IT Revolution developed substantially in the state sector.

"The developments that took place during the 1970s set off a vicious cycle. It led to the concentration of wealth increasingly in the hands of the financial sector. This doesn’t benefit the economy -- it probably harms it and society -- but it did lead to a tremendous concentration of wealth."

Further, and in order to gain very important insights into the attitudes, behaviour and machinations of 'High Finance Crapitalism' and to realise how and why we are in the mess we are in, try to refer to :

e tenebris lux ...

[-] 3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

I've seen this before! That girl is awesome.

What's she's talking about is pretty much like Dennis Kucinich's NEED Act HR 2990!!!

End the manipulation the banks hold over our economy and our government!

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Further to your comment with reference to "The Theory of Money", please do try to catch the new, insightful & excellent Video Documentary :

When money drives almost all activity on the planet, it's essential that we understand it. Yet simple questions often get overlooked - questions like : Where does money come from ? Who creates it ? Who decides how it gets used ? And what does that mean for the millions of ordinary people who suffer when money and finance breaks down ?

People should have an opportunity to bank with ethical (& perhaps publicly owned) banks. The best ethical practices should be present in the 'market place' and should be promoted, incentivised and rewarded 'in the market place' so we the people - The 99% - can make informed choices and perhaps only 'Publicly Owned Banks' can do this - which is exactly why The Infernal Banksters will fight this idea tooth and nail !!!

Further, some other points on the matter of 'Publicly Owned Banks' :

1) Democratic Accountability and Oversight over behaviour such as led to The 2008 Financial Crisis ;

2) Prevention of a culture of short-termism, 'moral-hazard', 'perverse incentives' and 'regulatory capture' ;

3) Profits to be ploughed back into "Society" rather than to 'private shareholders' (Foreign or otherwise) ;

4) Driving out 'bad banking practice rewarding greed' and favour / instil 'ethical' practices and behaviour ;

5) Genuine rewarding of savers - NOT fleecing them and driving them towards 'sharks' ;

6) A far more fair, rational, longer-term & more socially responsible outlook for lending ;

7) Reigning in dubious practices ("Innovative Financial Products" - CDOs, CDS's, 'Mortgage Backed Securities', et al and outright fraudulent behaviour - Bernie Madoff / Jon Corzine / MF Global, et al) ;

8) Re-instilling Public Confidence by Accepting / Realising that Banking & Financial Services can NOT just be left to 'Selfish Short-Term Profit Motives' & Banking to be seen as a 'Strategic Public Utility'

9) Have you ever heard of 'The State Owned "Bank Of North Dakota ?' IF NOT, why not d'you think ? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_North_Dakota and http://banknd.nd.gov/ ) ;

10) The urgent reintroduction of 'Glass Steagal' AND a 'Financial Transaction / Tobin Tax'.

There is some degree of overlap in my points and almost guaranteed that one could argue the toss, so from a purely US perspective - I leave you with something more substantial to read, reflect and ruminate upon :

fiat lux ...

[-] 3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

Good comment. They need to do the opposite of the entire Financial modernization Act which repealed Glass Steagall and more. Also they need to overturn the Republican JOBS Act that doesn't create a single job and only further deregulates Wall Street.

Keep sharing the good info. Knowledge is power!!

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Also in the spirit of cross fertilisation on this important and arguably - fundamental matter for 'OWS' :

ad iudicium ...

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Also to follow please also find this excellent and illuminating article :

respice ; adspice ; prospice ...

[Removed]

[-] 2 points by PublicCurrency (1387) 2 years ago

Over time people will be controlled by whomever creates and manages the medium of exchange. Today all of our money (except for coins) originates as a loan from a private bank. Even our bills are "Federal Reserve Notes."

A note is a debt instrument.

Ownership of the twelve banks of the Federal Reserve is exclusive to the member banks of their districts. So, we have a classic "fox guarding the hen house scenario."

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

'PC', also 'fyi' : http://www.webofdebt.com/flyer01.pdf !! ad iudicium ...

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Hence manumission from indentured debt-bondage is at the core of "OWS" - because The 99% have been 'Occupied BY The Parasitic Bankster Scum' for far too long !

The Clear Cartel Behaviour with respect to LIBOR could become an extreme wedge issue and an unstoppable force, as 'They' have torpedoed themselves below the water line & thus I append herewith :

Finally, I repeat a quote from J.K.Galbraith (1908-2006) : “The study of money, above all other fields in economics, is one in which complexity is used to disguise truth or to evade truth, not to reveal it. The process by which banks create money is so simple the mind is repelled. With something so important, a deeper mystery seems only decent.”

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 2 points by doitagain (234) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago
[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Thanx. Strong song and thoughtful video from an up coming Brit artist with a really funny and provocative name. I'm an ex-Brixton Living Brit, I know of this artist so thanx again and http://www.izzidunn.com/ .

pax et lux ...

[-] 2 points by know1 (210) 2 years ago

If we do nothing other than educate ourselves and the world about the real story of money, there would be a revolution. (a peaceful beautiful one, of coarse) ps. fiat money (meaning not backed by gold) is fine, it just has to be made by the government not the banks

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

I wholeheartedly agree with you and querulous exchanges with contrarian reactionaries aside, I've spent this entire thread (& this being comment #167) trying to prove your succinct and fundamental point. ~*~

pax et lux ; nunc et semper ; hic et ubique ...

[-] 3 points by know1 (210) 2 years ago

thank u, shadz66. I also think we should have a world currency or currencys. I wrote a simplistic post, called "free money(well some) if u would read it

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Thanx and I'd love to read it. Please post a link. pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 3 points by know1 (210) 2 years ago

i dont know how to do that yet

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Open two tabs. Go to your post. Highlight the web link from the address box at the very top of your screen (occupywallst.org/forum/ ... xyz), right click & "copy" ; come back here and open a reply box & after again right clicking, "paste" ... y bingo gringo - me casa su casa ~{:-)

et fiat lux ...

[-] 2 points by know1 (210) 2 years ago

thnk u so much , i ll try but in the mean time u know how to look me up ,rite, thx

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Gar Alperovitz is right in the vanguard of the 'new thinking', that is so very necessary in The U$A.

fiat lux et fiat justitia ...

[-] 2 points by JoeW (109) 2 years ago

I don't like a centralized government as the only source of money. Communities need to be able to create their own currencies, and we can use monetary tools for other goals as well. A currency created by the government is a good idea so long as its not a monopoly currency created by a government (seems like the road to totalitarian nightmare, but I could be wrong).

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

In a True Democracy, "government" would not be the enemy, as it would be Our Government (OF The People ; FOR The People ; BY The People !!!) and it would be decentralised. I thoroughly agree with the idea of localised currencies and new monetary paradigms. First and foremost - I am an ardent Militant For Democracy and I appreciate your comment.

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] -3 points by DJdoodles (-56) 2 years ago

There is no government in a True Democracy. The people lead themselves. There is no intermediary.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

You are a Micro-Fascist (& maybe Macro too) as evidenced by your tedious, divisive, reactionary postings from your ~40 monikers on this forum since its inception. You don't give a hoot for "The People" and Nothing you say about anything can be believed & one thread should suffice for interested new readers on this forum : http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-are-people-so-afraid-of-black-blocs/ .

Entre nous, oui - "There is no intermediary" !!!

temet nosce ...

[-] -3 points by DJdoodles (-56) 2 years ago

I think it's important to note that we can only come close to True Democracy or Pure Democracy or whatever else you want to call it with anarchy, but even then, it wouldn't be True Democracy in practice. There will always be some people stronger than others, with more influence.

The point is, the notion of having a government automatically means representative democracy, and not True Democracy.

How can we discuss subjects if the base definitions are not correct?

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Go play your strange music to someone who cares, 'DJTrashyScumBot' ; I don't like you and I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire & your tunes suck too !!!

Stop thinking that I will ever be taking Anything you say seriously or that you have anything pertinent to say on this or indeed, any other matter !!

You have made your bed and soiled it repeatedly but must now go lay in it & stop trying to provoke me ... because it just might work !

nosce te ipsum ...

[+] -4 points by DJdoodles (-56) 2 years ago

What's up with the threats? Is that how we are going to change the world for the better?

Are you a boxer or something? You solve disagreements by fighting?

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

@ 'TrashyScumBot' - you just keep on talking to 'the hand' because sooner or later it's going to smack you very hard in the face !!!

'JadedCitizen' had you down to a tee on 'jarts' forum-post on "why are people so afraid of black blocs", so go see if he'll spar with your tendentious, specious, insincere bollocks !!

Me, I'm a lover and not a fighter - though I'll happily punch your teeth down your throat in a probably vain hope of shutting your fork-tongued, lying mouth but perhaps 'breaking fingers' would be more effective !!!

gnothi seauton ...

[-] -2 points by DJdoodles (-56) 2 years ago

Thank you for linking to the black bloc posting. People really have to read that. I answered JadedCitizen and all the others.

My position is that we should do all that we can to make OWS look good, and that includes being officially against vandalism since this does not serve any purpose apart from making us look bad.

Vandalism will happen, we can't stop it. But, we should be officially against it. At the moment we aren't. We need to table this at one of the GAs. Non-violence should include no vandalism.

If we say nothing, then we are also to blame for the vandalism.

[-] 2 points by LeoYo (5866) 2 years ago

Well ya gotta admit, getting information from conspiracy theorists is a pretty bad idea. I mean folks like Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Woodrow Wilson, Robert Owen...what could these wacky people possibly know about money and government? http://occupywallst.org/forum/free-democracy-amendment/

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

You may have a serious point and you certainly have a very interesting link, from which there is much to glean. For example, I just found and herewith thus copy - this :

Thanx for your input and I recommend your excellent 'forum-post', subsequent thread and the links to all interested readers.

fiat lux ...

[-] 3 points by LeoYo (5866) 2 years ago

Another source you might be interested in is "The Secret World of Money" by Andrew Gause.

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Thanx. I'd never heard of him before, but I did find this :

Very interesting. Thanx for the heads up :-)

radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ....

[-] 4 points by LeoYo (5866) 2 years ago

It's incredible to realize, based on the findings of the Grace Commission Report, that the money from a person's federal income tax goes directly to paying off the bankers to the effect that we are actually working for the bankers. It's also ironic that if the Revenue Act of 1913 (the federal income tax made possible by the 16th Amendment) were to be applied today, adjusting for inflation, only the 1% would be paying it instead of the 99%.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Again, thanx for another excellent, thought provoking and singularly illuminating - tho' also quite shocking comment, further to which I append the following links :

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 3 points by LeoYo (5866) 2 years ago

I see what you're trying to do and I support your efforts so I'm glad to contribute.

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

By way of further motivation to 'keep the shoulder to the wheel' :

per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 1 points by OccNoVi (415) 2 years ago

Of course, the most important facts of our nation's politcal life can be understood by 12-year olds. From 1981 through 2011 a total of $17-trillion in assets and debt was transferred out of the Middle Class to the very narrow "1%." Straight out theft accounted for $5.2-trillion in retirement fund frauds with the bogus bonds based on bribery-driven "AAA" flim-flam.

Truth and taxes are for little people.

Lying and theft on a grand scale are for the sociopaths of the 1%.

Similarly, it is easy to understand that Mitt Romney's bad driving at Beaulac in 1968 had exactly the same consequence as Ted Kennedy's bad driving at Chappaquiddick. 1968, then 1969. Same difference.

Mitt Romney's bad driving killed Leola Anderson. Then Romney invented an imaginary "drunk priest" "Albert Marie" to cover his tracks with her family, his family, and Mormon hierarchy. now we've found the other driver -- alive at 90 years old, Bishop Jean Vilnet.

Is there some reason that the left-center is not taking Romney's lying hide off for this dishonesty ???

Problem for Romney is that his political career is based on hiding a bad-driving, simply thoughtless 1968 killing. He drove the wrong way into an on-coming Left Turn lane — still says he was on a 2-lane roadway. Team Lying produced an extravagant, dishonest tale that he and his supporters have sold to major media for his political campaigns for 20 years.

-- foolmoon.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/337209/all/Mitt_Romney_fatal_accident_at_.html

Mitt Romney and Bishop Jean Vilnet. Which one of these two men in fact caused the accident that killed Mrs. Leola Anderson?

This was not a high speed collision, but unfortunately Mrs. Anderson did not have a seat belt. She struck the front windshield with fatal effect. Investigation finds an astonishing cover up story. NY Times, Wash Post, Guardian, Boston Globe — all present closely fit versions of this tale in their archives. Photographs there are mislabeled. Names are incorrect. The initial description of the roadway and the impact are inaccurate.

Full name: Bishop Jean-Félix-Albert-Marie Vilnet. Born in 1922.

-- sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/317947_373775036010356_1525983227_n.jpg

Photo HERE. Despite that photos exist and Bishop Vilnet is alive and tens of thousands of people know him and that he has been talked to, the Romney fanatics deny everything. They're like Scientology. A wack-job cult at the core.

Imagine if Chappaquiddick had been covered up — that is the story here. “Kill” is the right word.

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

That SH!T sounds pretty Fukt Up Creepy to me dude !!!

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

'Cross Fertilising' this thread with :

q.e.d. ...

[-] 0 points by CommonSense2345 (-5) 2 years ago

1.) Do you really think she thought of that herself? And 2.) how about we don't create so much debt in the first place. Socialist policies like healthcare have quadrupled the annual deficit in 2009. Obamacare costs $500 billion every year. In a truly capitalist system, there would be no expensive bailouts. Only in a socialized economy does the government do that. Entitlements are 60% of the budget. They don't create jobs or help people to do anything other than be able to stay home and watch TV, and at the taxpayer's expense I might add. Also only 40% of the population pays their income taxes. And that is the "1%" (which is actually 1.93% so if you passed third grade math you would round it to 2%) and the conservatives, which is why we want lower taxes because we pick up the slack you leave behind.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26479) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

CommonSense2345???

How about Non-sense2345?

No you are still firmly in the park of Corpo-rat-sense2345.

[Removed]

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by toukarin (488) 2 years ago

Apart from the interest we taxpayers are forced to pay... lets not forget the billions they make in laundering drug money... While countries like Columbia and Mexico become war-zones.

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Excellent point !!! Fundamental but secret and hidden !! Thanx ! + I append the following in support :

radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ...

[-] 3 points by toukarin (488) 2 years ago

I have always found it ludicrous that the government, any government, has to pay interest to private corporations on the money it 'borrows.' If anything it is we the people who are financing the debt who should be receiving interest. The government should have charged prime plus one on the bailout money or simply told the banks to consider it as payment towards principal for the existing govt debt.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

I agree. A solution can be found along the lines your are thinking. Creative ideas will recognize that banks should serve people and the public good ...and that not every idea from bankers should fly.

Risks:
1) FED Lending globally leads to inflation.
2) US Banker lending based on fractional reserve should have an upper limit. High yeild lending/High Risk Lending should only be part of the total portfolio. US Banker Debt Creation does inflate the Dollar.
3) Shadow Banking and Private Banking that is not regulated represents 'systemic risk' to a) Future financial crashes b) Taxpayer liability c) Inflation by increasing the money supply or US Debt.
4) Global and US Derivatives total $600 Trillion at last survey. Derivatives are hard to value in the market place but the liability has to be transparent, published monthly, monitored by US Government Entities (other than the privately held FED), and their should be a cap either by market share as a percentage or by specific dollar amounts based on a banks total capitalization for both a) derivatives held and b) for derivatives issued globally by same bank.
5) Inflation has many forms, but the US Government Inflation data has little utility for economist, investors, and taxpayers/electorate. We can not suceed in government or as individual household goal setters without correct measures.
6) Government Debt does inflate the Dollar, but it is good debt to a large degree. The Risk as I see it is wasteful government susidies and excessive spending in the War Department and for War in General as we have experienced since 1963.
7) US Banking's Reputation has been ruined for US Citizens and probably globally as a result of the recent Financial Crisis.
8) US Individual Savings Accounts Interest Rates are at most .5% (half a percent). There is no incentive to keep money in savings and earn risk free interest and a meaningful rate.
9) Pension Funds both public and private seem to be at a low and many of them seem to be at risk due to low performance or low deposits (underfunded). But there are also stories about state pensions invested in Zombie Hedge Funds which are invested in Private Equity Funds. These Pension investments can't be sold because they can't be valued in the market place. Also these Hedge Funds are charge the pension funds huge fees over $100K at year optimistically. See Friday, 1 June 2012 Wall Stree Journal.
10) Money Flow within the US Economy is crucial to keep a kind of stability or status quo. However a recent analyst at Forbes Magazine laid out 8 reasons to suspect that the economy will slow as conditions become a little more dismal and the public job sector shrinks a little in the coming years.

<http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203920204577191220770877772.html>

http://www.wealthdaily.com/articles/staring-down-the-pension-tsunami/3266

Taxpayers are now on the hook for $1 trillion (for Pension Shortfalls) Joshua D. Rauh's study of 116 U.S. retirement plans for teachers and government workers showed that as of June 30, 2009, they had just $1.89 trillion in assets to cover $3.15 trillion in liabilities.

http://www.hedgefundsreview.com/hedge-funds-review/news/2156229/activist-investors-aim-zombie-hedge-funds (story is out there but I don't have subscription here)

http://moneyland.time.com/2012/04/04/aiming-high-pension-funds-bet-wrong/

Pension systems have blown up in places like Rhode Island and Alabama. Private equity and hedge funds, in particular, held the promise of providing much needed gains in a directionless market.

Two of the more aggressive were the $26 billion Pennsylvania State Employees and the $51 billion Pennsylvania Public School Employees funds. About 46% of their portfolios were in alternative investments. Together they paid almost $700 million in fees, roughly 10 times more than they might have paid with a traditional approach. Their returns the last five years were under 4% a year—at least a percentage point lower than the average pension fund return.

Read more: http://moneyland.time.com/2012/04/04/aiming-high-pension-funds-bet-wrong/#ixzz1wlXLevJx

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

For the most part that is true. We the people buy treasury bonds in the bond market, through retirement funds, savings bonds, and investments of other types. The interest paid on those purchases is ours. Foreign countries like China also buy our bonds, but in volume they do not equal local purchases buy our citizens.

The government also made money on the loans they gave to the banks for the bailouts. Money was paid back plus interest to the government, the government should have then used that money to help bailout the citizens who are strapped with personal debt.... but they didn't.

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Let me try and explain it to you politely. If a private citizen borrows money, they pay interest. The same holds for governments who borrow money for it's various schemes, whether it be setting up schools, building infrastructure, waging wars or paying for the 5 star accommodation and upkeep of our pampered politicians.

Even banks pay interest when they borrow from other banks (ever heard LIBOR, EUROBOR etc). Banks also pay interest on loans from the Federal Reserve (usually these are very short term loan lasting a day or so). And this is a practice followed all over the world (at least wherever there is a free market system).

Also, 'financing the debt' means repaying it, as in paying the interest and principal. Therefore, when you say that "we the people" must receive the interest because "we finance the debt", that is a contradiction is terms. How can you both receive the interest and also pay it? May be you should put more thought into your words. And thats a general advice for all Occutards.

[-] 3 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Financing the debt is about the stupidest thing an issuer of fiat money can do. It's done legally to support the bond market and is a holdover from the days of gold backed currency, we have a few of those older laws, like the yearly debt ceiling law, they all work against the government in this case. There is really no practical reason the Federal government should finance the debt.

When Nixon closed the gold window in 71, not much thought was given to other operational constraints that would have to be made to free up the currency as intended. Being legally forced to finance the debt is one of them. Stupidity.

[-] -2 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Then, pray tell me, what the govt should be doing? Should it just stop paying its debts?

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

It should be legal for expansionist monetary policy to take place without bonds sales.

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Care to elaborate?

[-] 3 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

I thought that was pretty self explanatory.

Try this, maybe you will get the idea of how fiat works. It's over simplified, but thats the point, you want more detail there are plenty of other sources:

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2012/05/playing-monopolis-monopoly-an-inquiry-into-why-we-are-making-ourselves-so-miserable.html

[-] -1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

i know how fiat money works. may be its a new thing for u not for me.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

From your other reply it appears really have no clue, if you must ask why you shouldn't have to sell bonds to expand the currency.

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

define what u mean by "expand the currency"? do u mean increasing money supply?

and i am not surprised that u think i hv no clue of macroecon. most occutards think that.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

As a Monetarist you are a Friedmanite. We are not going to see eye to eye on anything as I subscribe to MMT. Throwing in name calling like 'occutard', lowers the value of discussion with you even more.

Therefore, this conversation is over. When you learn to respect others and be civil, maybe we can try again.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

current suggests the movement of goods and services

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

"Occutards"? <--- offensive! You started out saying you would be polite. but you betray your true intent with this insult. and you glossed over the under 1% loans banks get from FED and turn around and charge the people interest as high as 29% (even higher sometimes). You think that is good?. Why should the 1% criminals who crashed the world economy enjoy such favorable terms. They should be punished. At the very least they should be making great efforts at lending at reasonable terms to stimulate the economy they crashed!

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Quite evidently, you dont understand the concept of issuing a loan. A loan has two factors - 1. Interest Rate 2.Term or Duration.

What determines Interest rates? The credit worthyness of the borrower. If the US govt borrows, then it gets cheap rates (which we also call the risk free rate). When someone with $1m in their account and a $200k house borrows, they will get good rates (though not as low as the US govt) because they have bank balance and a house as mortgage. When you borrow on your credit card, its an unsecured loan and therefore the company will charge you more. A car loan would be cheaper than a student loan because the bank can resell the car but you cant resell education (or the student which consumed the said education). There are entire team of analyst that work out what these rates would be, keeping in mind your credit worthiness and the banks profit margins

  1. Term: Now these 1% loans that you are so miffed about are very short term loans. Banks borrow from the Fed on a short term basis - overnight (like those in TARP), weekly, quarterly. Hence the rates are lower. The rates are lower because risk of a loan increases as it's term increases. Besides, bank being much more solvent than your average citizen, the rates for them are lower. The same works even in many credit card, where rates are lower for premium cards based on the consumer's credit worthiness.

Also understand that banks have no desire to not lend. A bank (and its supposedly greedy execs) make money when they lend it out. The have no motive, other than risk management, to keep the money parked in their balance sheet. The reason banks arent lending as happily as earlier is because they are not sure of the overall economic conditions and therefore trying to keep risks under check.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

BS! Banks are not lending because demand is non existence. Our economy works on the laws of supply and demand. If there were real consumer spending there would be great economic demand. There is no consumer spending because the criminal 1% banks crashed the economy, creating massive unemployment, and enslaved the American working class with loan shark level interest rate debt. You speak for those criminals who prey on your family. You've been duped to vote their interests instead of your own.

[-] -2 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

yes demand is at a all time how and hence the economic uncertainties and hence the added risk in lending. i said exactly wat u did albeit with different terminology. we are essentially describing the same thing.

I agree banks n their lending practices are most to be blamed but not all the fault is their's. As for the alleged duping, well i had voted for obama last time, but i m not so keen this time. And i have learnt enuf econ to not get duped - either by banks or by occupiers like yourself

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

We must help the middle/working class so that we might recreate the strong consumerism thats driven the world economy since the 1950's. The American middle/working class is the only force that can get corps/1%'s to loosen there grip on the trillions they continue to sit on. If the 1% see that the 99% have money to spend the natural instinct to suck it up will kick in. (greedy bastards) We should ensure the 1% efforts to accumulate 99% cash is done by hiring Americans. Penalize outsourcing of jobs/assets. Reward onshoring of jobs/assets. Simple!

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

and thereby distort the market. i dont think thats a good idea.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

The market is not sacred. It should serve the working middle class. Our actions should be designed to improve the purchasing power of the middle class! We don't need to worry about distorting the market. We distort it all the time. For any number of interest groups, with any number of tools. We outght to distort the market for the benefit of the working middle class for a change.

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

I m not religious either. I am practical and therefore cannot agree with a emotional statement like yours.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Emotional? LMFAO. You just can't respond to the fact that you value the market over working American families.! You ain't kiddin anyone.

[-] -1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Again, more rhetoric. I value the freedom for companies to do business the way they see fit, provided its legal. I value the freedom of business, their owners and employees to maximize profit and not having to carry unnecessary expenses or overhead. The people who continue to work in the companies are just as much "American working families" as are the ones who get laid off. If you were running a restaurant, would you hire 20 waiters when 10 would suffice?

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You "value the freedom of companies"? "value the freedom of business"? Is that a joke? Business freedom ain't the problem we face. where have ya been. Unemployement!!!! Of the people!!! Do people matter to you? WTF. Penalties for business who outsource, rewards for those that onshore. Business serves the American people!! They don't like it? we should cut off their access to the greatest middle class market on the planet! They can sell to china. Freedom of business? LMFAO. For the PEOPLE, by the PEOPLE, of the PEOPLE!. Whatta joke!

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

pray tell me the point behind posting a link of those curves?

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Further to your excellent comment :

verum ex absurdo ...

[-] 3 points by toukarin (488) 2 years ago

While I do not agree with all that he had said and done... that right there was a gem...

There is a reason why primary education is being torpedoed by the govt... there is a reason why getting a college degree has become so expensive that you have to take loans from banks with almost no hope of declaring bankruptcy should the need arise...

While I have nothing against immigrants... there is also a reason why they want highly educated immigrants in place of highly educated Americans...

It is because then... the ones who can vote are not educated or informed enough to do it right... and the ones who are educated and informed... simply cant vote....

[-] 2 points by Renneye (4004) 2 years ago

Excellent post, exceptional thread, bravo shadz !!

[-] 0 points by DJnamaste (-6) 2 years ago

Conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo straight out of the Zeitgeist movies, and best sent straight to the thrash can. Don't learn your economy from a 12 year old! Be serious. Read the works of professional economists. And, please, turn off Zeitgeist, it's been debunked a zillion times over!

Ah! Those conspiracy theorists are a good hardy laugh, that's for sure!

[-] 2 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

These days, "professional" economists are determined by how thoroughly they have been brainwashed by their education. If these individuals are so professional, then why have they led us into such a disastrous economy? Unless that is indeed their professional responsibility.

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago
[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

What conspiracy theory are you referring to? Don't see it. I see initiatives to control 1% fin criminals and protect the 99% victims of the 1% fin crimes. Is that your problem.? You don't want to protect the 99% people and want let fin 1% criminals run free to perpatrate more crimes against us.?

[Removed]

[+] -4 points by BoCongo (-26) 2 years ago

The idea that the New World Order (defined as the Jews) are trying to take control of the world with schemes using fiat money. This conspiracy theory comes from the propaganda piece called Elders of Zion published more than a 100 years ago by Russians who wanted to tarnish the reputation of Jews. It's all lies. The Zeitgeist movies brought this back to the forefront of popular discussion and that is where this 12 year old conspiracy theory "economist" got her nonsense from.

BTW - Shadz66 gets all his information from the website informationclearinghouse.info, a known conspiracy theory hub. He's the site conspiracy theorist #2 after Renneye.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Trashy-Scum : What The Flying F**k does "New World Order (defined as the Jews)" mean and why have you bought up this specious BS here ?!!! "Elders of Zion" & "Zeitgeist" - WTF ?!! Why have you just tried to associate "this 12 year old", The I.C.H and me with 'Judeophobia' / anti-semitism ?!

With your clear knowledge about these matters and your fork-tongued mendacities and manipulations, you absolutely and clearly mark yourself out as The Definitive Conspiracist - sans pareil, on this forum.

temet nosce ...

[-] 0 points by JoeW (109) 2 years ago

Its not all lies. The conspiracy part is, the fiat money fucking us up part is not. Our money is designed so that it accumulates at the top, its scarcity at the bottom is a root cause of many of the economic problems we face. The other issue is that our money is a monopoly, its just one kind of money, and we use it for EVERYTHING. That is just a recipe for a BRITTLE economy. And we can see that brittleness in all the ups and downs all over the world for the past three hundred years.

We can have money that is designed differently however. Complimentary currencies and a global trade currency that acts as a store of actual value (instead of a fiat currency) can help immensely.

Jew here by the way.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Didn't notice any of these items you are accusing them of spreading. Of course I don't agree with anti semetic crap myself. So there you go.

[-] -1 points by BoCongo (-26) 2 years ago

Have you read the original text the Elders of Zion? Have you watched the Zeitgeist movies? If not, do that, then come back and listen to this conspiracy theory passed on by the 12 year old girl. You'll see what I'm talking about.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

No thanks. Seems like a waste of time. Good day

[-] -2 points by BoCongo (-26) 2 years ago

It's not a waste of time in the sense that it helps you identify nonsensical postings like this one. However, you are free to get your economic knowledge from a 12 year old without questioning where it comes from, that's true. Just wanted to give you some information that you could verify if you cared. Of course, most people here believe whatever they read. Hell, I heard one guy made his voting decision based on the ideas of a 7 year old.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21381) 2 years ago

Welcome to the forum. Just a quick question, I'm curious. Do you work for the National Bank of Canada, NBF, by any chance? Yes or no. Personal attacks not required.

[-] 1 points by BoCongo (-26) 2 years ago

Why do you think I work for the National Bank of Canada? The answer to that question is no, and I have no idea why you think I would attack you personally. Are personal attacks the norm here? I'm asking because after only 2 posts I was called a piece of shit and a cunt from one of your long time posters. Indeed, a great introduction to OWS. I don't call people names dude.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21381) 2 years ago

Okay. Thanks. I didn't think anything, that's why I asked.

[-] 1 points by BoCongo (-26) 2 years ago

You didn't think anything, so that's why you asked? That makes no sense.

My guess is you think that anyone who would challenge the economic analytical skills of this 12 year old must be a troll or someone working at a bank. I'm guessing this after what I read in this thread. Monetarist is one of the few who posted something worthwhile and he gets called a troll. Man, I registered to this site hoping to discuss OWS issues, but all I seem to run into are people name calling. Is there a "smart" section in this forum?

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (21381) 2 years ago

No, we're just all a bunch of dummies here, so you should find another forum.

[-] 1 points by BoCongo (-26) 2 years ago

I was mostly involved in the OWS discussions on reedit, and I wanted to try out this site. I have to say you are right that the level of discussion is much lower here. Not much intellectualism at all. Odin is interesting, and a few others, but apart from that you're definitely right. I'll probably head back to the reedit forum tomorrow. I just want to reply to a few of the smart posters I found on this forum. They are like diamonds in the rough!

P.S. Try the reedit channels if you are interested in talking about OWS topics. Stuff like the organization of events like occupations, and marches. I see this site mostly deals with non-OWS issues like voting.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21381) 2 years ago

Awesome. See ya!

[-] -1 points by BoCongo (-26) 2 years ago

TIP: Trusting this 12 year girl 100% is not the wisest economic choice you'll be making in your life in my opinion, best balance her words with those of a few adults.

Later, take care.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You are clearly just in the business of insulting people. As such I cannot consider your advice. Sorry. Good day again.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Tr@shy : WTF ?!!! Again with your "stuck record DJ" & what "Conspiracy Theory" ?!! Your reactionary, reflexive, knee-jerk, 'pro-status quo', bleatings do NOT a critique make, does it numbnuts ?!

In short, 'Trashy-bot' --- Fiat Money -- Conjured Up From Nothing, is by far, THE Definitive CONspiracy du nos jours'. Thus to defend the present tyrannical and parasitic status quo, clearly and fully exposes you for the faux-radical ; quasi-conservative ; neo-feudalist ; pseudo-progressive ; two faced ; lying turd that you are - forever speciously sniping from The Shadow, only proposing that we all do Nothing about Anything ... Ever !

With your sly, snide, insidious, invidious and loveless whisperings, you disgust and repel me. Thus, I forego future karma to curse you and wish you ill. You and your dark, rancid, reactionary, right-wing, regressive drivel, represents every f**king thing that I hate and motivates me to further redouble my researches in many matters.

honi soit qui mal y pense ....

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Fiat money appears a conspiracy theory to you may be because (choose whatever you prefer)

  1. You are an idiot
  2. Not much literate. Do you even have a undergrad degree?
  3. You have been reading too many conspiracy sites

Fiat money is a perfectly alright concept. You don't need your currency to be backed by gold as long as the govt standing behind that currency is solvent. And since one can buy gold from the open market, if you so want, you can sell off all your dollars right now and buy gold with it. No one is stopping you. In fact, when the stock market is down or there are severe fluctuations in currency, investors summarily park their money in gold. Why? Because gold is a commodity in demand, Frankly, instead of gold if were baseball cards that were in demand (with a similar trend of prices and similar value) investors/bankers would be buying those instead of gold.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Please try to consider : All money is "Fiat Money" and ipso facto - an abstraction. IF enough people have 'confidence' in any given 'subjective abstraction' - then it becomes (almost) 'objectively real'. Thus, my contention is less with the 'notion' of Fiat Money and much more with how it has now manifested via 'Ever Increasing Compound Interest Generating Debt' into something very different to the facilitation of trade and of an effective means of exchange.

You are right of course - money need not be just backed by gold as we can (& have) used other notions of value. What is seriously worthy of much consideration however, is the ethics, morality and efficacy of "Debt Based Money" and the creation of Generational Debt Servitude.

I live in The UK and there is now much tiresome talk of "Jubilee" here but little if any refection of the origin, meaning and true implications of that word and I sincerely encourage people to consider : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical) & http://www.ewtn.com/jubilee/history/OT1.htm et al.

In brief, my reading of "Jubilee" is that the ancient OT Hebrew Elders understood that a son could perhaps be responsible for and pay his father's debts and/or a grandson could conceivably be a direct beneficiary of his grand-father's borrowing of money and could thus be morally responsible for paying of his grand-father's debts BUT that anything more would be 'generational debt bondage' (especially if one factored in 'interest') and this would have been understood to have been unfair, unreasonable and also unethical. Thus, every 49/50 years the Ancient Israelite Elders in their foresight and wisdom, declared that all debts were null and void. Thus, freed of their debt-burden and quite understandably - festivities, celebrations and much merry making - ensued !!

You can choose to impugn me and call me an idiot or lacking in literacy as I never went to university & thus do not "even" have a degree but your reference to "conspiracy" echoes the use of that word as an attempt at a 'pseudo-intellectual cudgel' in order to stifle and strangle honest debate - and I dislike and disagree with your use of this apparent attempt at stifling debate.

You & I have exchanged words, ideas, pleasantries & harsher words, over the course of various thread :

... and also of course on this thread and I have provided many links to articles, web-sites, diagrams, stats & pie charts et al, explaining my developing thinking on the matter of "The Theory of Money".

I have engaged with you because you have given the impression of an honest, prickly yet intelligent interlocutor and (more importantly) you have given indications to the fact that you have real insights ; integrity ; a conscience and that you may be someone who perhaps believes in fairness and 'democratic meritocracy'. I may have you wrong and it is your prerogative to judge me for not having a degree but for you to use the word 'conspiracy' against me is beyond the pale and in the final analysis - extremely ironic on many levels.

e tenebris, lux ....

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

well money as a medium of exchange and compound interest are two diff issues. there are muslim countries where charging of interest is not allowed but they hv money. even fractional reserve banking can be implemented without charging compound interest.

also i dont think money is a jewish conspiracy (im not a jew btw.my father is christian and mother a hindu and i am an atheist).

also all money is not debt. and debt does not lead to servitude. those r irrational arguments meant to fool ppl.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Though you briefly allude to an ideal and describe another possible reality in some Muslim countries, the status quo in most of 'Western High Finance Capitalism' is fiat debt based money. Yes, I agree that "even fractional reserve banking can be implemented without charging compound interest." - but in practice it really isn't though, is it ?!

I appreciate your precision and you are right in saying "all money is not debt." as in the case of The UK, ~3% of money exists as actual notes and coins. Please try to see "97% Owned" (Director's Cut) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3mfkD6Ky5o for some real insights into this and other matters.

When you say "and debt does not lead to servitude." - again, yes you are right - tho' one has to add the word - 'necessarily' to temper the absolutism of your comment. 'Debt' can and very often does lead to servitude, personal & societal - and Global Austerity proves that.

Further, IF you choose to regard this thread and our previous exchanges here and on other threads as "irrational arguments meant to fool ppl. (sic)" - then I have to ask you - who is fooling who ? Me and others here or Corporate MSM ?! There is a plethora of links just on this thread IF you wish to 'pierce the veil' woven for us all by The 'ABCNNBCBS-FUX SNEWzzz continuum'.

Finally and to be clear - at no point whatsoever did I allude to "money is a jewish conspiracy" ! I'm from The UK and I was clearly referring to "The Jubilee" here and pointing out the actual roots of that word.

Arab, Chinese, Indian, Japanese and Most US and European Banksters are NOT Jewish and the Jewish 99% are as detached from the Jewish 0.01% as the rest of us are from The Global 0.01% & thus talk of race in this context is a specious canard. I am a person of the political 'Left' - such that 'Liberal' is really somewhere to 'The Right' of me and a significant proportion of my political heroes are of Judaic descent.

I suspect that our exchanges are slowly coming to a natural denouement and I sincerely request you to open some of the links I have posted on this thread and therefore repeat the following for your benefit :

radix omnium malorum est cupiditas, ergo - fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

sure. will go through some of the links at leisure. right now i am sitting at a meeting and i am rather bored and certainly sleepy.

just one thing though. your notion that money which exists as coins or notes is not "debt" is wrong. electronic money is not necessarily borne out of debt.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Possibly somewhat provocatively, a couple more links for you (& this thread) :

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Your view of economists seem to be that they are some kind of modern day Oracles, who can predict the future or will it even. Sadly its not so. Economics is nothing but deriving conclusions from past data and turning those into usable frameworks or models. That's pretty much all of it. Almost nothing in economics is an absolute truth and our understanding is constantly evolving. Economics is diff from other sciences because you cant really do lab experiments here and instead you depend on past events and study them.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Other than gently disagreeing of course with your first sentence, I really loved the rest of this comment and I offer this tune by way of thanx :

pax et lux ...

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

And you should read this about Paul Farrel, the guy who wrote the second link http://www.forbes.com/sites/richkarlgaard/2010/11/10/did-marketwatch-columnist-paul-farrell-incite-crime/

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

In truth mate, I found that link a touch hysterical and desperate in tone but I gave it a go. Further, we must bear in mind that 'Forbes' is very much an establishment, pro-business, 1%er house journal, just like 'The Economist'. Now you seem a serious and fair minded person (even if i do consider you a tad too attached to "Economic 'Received Wisdom' Paradigms"!) so I gently dare you to read and consider the following :

The article above is a synopsis of his book of the same name, reviewed here by by Gar Alperovitz : http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/education-for-life/book-review-the-ownership-solution-by-jeff-gates .

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Dude there is nothing called perpetual growth. Unbounded growth yes. Perpetual growth, NO. Economics does not at all talk about perpetual growth. If you think that you need to read some econ books.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

'Fairy Nuff', I agree ;-) You recommend one (& hope it's "Wealth of Nations"!) & I'll will also. I open with :

multum in parvo ...

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Hope you survived your meeting. I agree that that fiat physical money is not "not debt" but my point is that it at least physically exists and in the case of metal coins (incl. Kruger Rands, Silver Dollars et al) have both intrinsic and practical value. Also, consider that electronic money is an 'abstract and virtual' phenomenon of 'double entry book-keeping' ( http://www.webofdebt.com/flyer01.pdf ).

Max Keiser's style is an acquired taste but he and financial journalist Stacy Herbert really hit on important and fundamental truths relating to 'Capital Markets and High-Finance Capitalism' in their show "The Keiser Report". Further, the quality of insight from the invited guests who appear in the second half of the programme is often extremely interesting. The Hedge Fund Manager and author who appeared in the very latest show was particularly incisive. If you only open one on my links 'monetarist', let it be this one and if the style of the first half irks you, let it cache and watch the second 15 mins.

  • 'The Keiser Report', Episode 298 : "In this episode, Max Keiser and co-host, Stacy Herbert, discuss shamed, naive and unsustainable Ponzi schemes and the British Metropolitan Police’s Total War on Economic Crime [or at least that committed by the bottom 99%]. In the second half, Max talks to Mitch Feierstein, hedge fund manager and author of "Planet Ponzi", about global ponzi schemes, asymmetric hedging and whether or not hedge funds do any ‘good.’" : http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/episode-298-max-keiser/ .

multum in parvo ...

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26479) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

We may very well need a world wide Jubilee to reset the books - considering the massive amount of toxic derivatives said to be still out on the market.

We very much need a fresh start - with accountability as well as responsibility. No more phoney money - all money to be backed by actual collateral. No more fucking smoke and mirrors.

[-] -2 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

The fact that money is an abstraction of the worth of resources is what makes debt possible, and that is a great thing! Without the possibility of borrowing money, i.e. of getting into debt, one can only buy things with cash (or directly with a resource if money doesn't exist). This makes it hard to buy a house or a car, and thus the economy stales.

The person who loses his job and can't pay the house so it gets taken from the bank wouldn't even have had a house in the first place if debt was impossible.

ad stupidum... (ad showoffinium with latinium)

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

It's not Debt 'per se' that is the contention but Generational Debt Bondage &/or enforced austerity. To try to draw fatuous parallels between personal debt and 'National State Debt' and show no inclination to even consider notions of who it is that issues fiat money and how that is undertaken, shows you again to be a faux-radical ; pseudo-progressive ; pro status quo ; neo-feudalist ; de facto conservative ; right-wing reactionary ... but of course you know this already .. or at least - you should do by now, Trashy.

gnothi seauton ...

[-] 0 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

You should take a moment to read the many website that debunk this 12 year old girl, and Zeitgeist. You'll realize how silly this all is. She's supposedly talking about Canadian banking, but half of what she talks about only applies to US banking, and the other half is fabricated nonsense.

Learning economy from a 12 year old!!!

ad stupidium

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26479) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

He likes beating dead horses. Hell he must make hamburger out of them before finding a new horse to beat.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26479) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Cash and carry was very good for many years. Real popular after the Great Depression. People only took out a loan for a car or a house. Short term loan on the car and a loan on the house that could actually be paid off. Hell they paid for higher education out of pocket - by a means called - wait for it - this will astound many - SAVINGS. People actually had money to save.

Unreal !!!!!!!!!!!!

I know !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WTF are savings?

Urban legend Right?

NO!!!

Once upon a time savings were real.

[-] -2 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

Does something stop people from saving money nowadays? No, of course not. I don't have a debt because I never borrowed an amount of money that I knew I couldn't pay off very quickly. And, I never had a credit card. However, if you want to borrow a lot of money you can. You have many choices. Isn't that a good thing?

What do you want, restricted choices? Communist stamps so you never have to worry about incurring debt?

[-] 1 points by flip (7042) 2 years ago

he is a one trick pony - even the conspiracies that have sent people to jail do not impress him - in other words an idiot! as to fiat money - what is the problem - do you want the gold standard?

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

"Gold Standard" ? No, not necessarily but if it comes to that then maybe ! You are right re 'Trashy' & to 'flip' the topic to something more rewarding, so I'm grateful to you for that. Consider that we all do need new monetary paradigms & for an idea of different thinking on the matter that you raise, I refer you to :

  • ""The Keiser Report - Ep.#295 : In this episode, Max Keiser and co-host Stacy Herbert discuss the tax-free-living Christine Lagarde, an unelected official, waving the flag for French banks while harassing Greek citizens while Silvio Berlusconi’s “pleasure chest” drives up the bunga bunga market. In the second half of the show, Max talks to (Billionaire) Hugo Salinas Price, who appeals to Alexis Tsipras to propose bringing 'A Silver Standard' To Greece : http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/episode-295-max-keiser/ .

ad iudicium ...

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by NewStart2012 (112) 2 years ago

Bravisimo !!

[-] -3 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Hysterical hissy fit. Settle down Drama. It's just a forum. lol.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Awwww ... ain't it sweet ?!!! The loyal little lap dog and fellow traveller comes a yapping from the margins adding precisely 'nothing' yet still fittingly, doing her master's bidding !! 'Dramatic' enough '4 U' chick ?!!

It's June already but May you see the light, 'April' and March towards it - though rather unfortunately, you still seem to be none the wiser ... how come ?!

et tempus fugit ...

[-] -1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Correction - lap kitty. Meow. No, that wasn't nearly as dramatic and hysterical hissy fit as your previous post. Please try again. I have all the confidence in you shadzy. Try again. Really put some feeling into it this time!

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Awww bless ! And though you're a bit of a flirt as well, d'you think your 'papa' is gonna like that, honey?!! Given where you may have been - I wouldn't touch you with his !!! No offence - but go purrrr quietly in the corner now and sin no more - there's a good girl ;-)

dux femina facti ...

[-] 3 points by newdawning (20) 2 years ago

Hahahahahaaaaaa........omg.......hehehehe......oooooooo.......hang on........can't breathe...........hahahahahaaa........Ohhhh......O my......that was good!!

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26479) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

LOL

[-] -1 points by Kevinkyle (20) 2 years ago

WOW! Even a child can understand this?

[-] -3 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

Yes. It's Economy for Children day.

[-] -1 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

ad conspiricium teorium

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Thanx 'DJ One Trick Pony' for playing your 'Trashy Spam Tunes' in order to bump my (obviously threatening to your employers) thread however ... the needle has stuck and you are only playing the same part of the same tune - just like your pal DJnamaste ! Get a grip - but don't spam any more porn !!

temet nosce ...

[-] -1 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

Never did spam porn. Only the conspiracy theorists think I did. Those guys (you're one of them), are just too hilarious. They connect whatever dots together and think they have found the truth. Ah! Their mothers must have been astrologists or something. How else can you explain the lack of logic?

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

You repeatedly posted obscene images on this forum and there were many, many, witnesses - ergo - You Did Spam Porn, you lying little turd !!! In 'truth' your protestations here are nothing but affirmation and confirmation of the charge !! QED !

nosce te ipsum ...

[-] -1 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

No, I never posted obscene images on this forum, hence there were no witnesses. You are simply lying. There was a poster, perhaps you, that did use a sock puppet with a similar name than mine and posted porn. He was banned but I was not. Perhaps you should talk to jart and refresh your memory. She knows what happened. You certainly don't seem to.

In any case, the goal was to deface this posting of yours and that is a resounding success. So, I bid you farewell for now and will see you again in your next conspiracy theory posting.

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

It is YOU who is the the "Sock Puppeteer" par excellence on this forum !

Further, all readers here can easily see that it is you who "doth protest too much" and re. your :

  • "In any case, the goal was to deface this posting of yours and that is a resounding success." - & well worra fkn dolt you are !!

ipse dixit et quod erat demonstrandum !!!

[-] -2 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

You can use conspiracy theory "logic", or you can simply ask jart to refresh your memory. We know exactly who posted the porn. He was a guy paid to spam links to a website. It was a small company based in California. The guy had about 200 sock puppets. I helped jart catch him. We worked together for two weeks. That's a long time ago, when I was still Thrasymaque. The good old days when I used to deface the 911 Truther postings with images! Remember! Damn, that was fun. I had this really nifty bot going on. Jart was helping me identify targets. We were like kids in a sandbox.

[-] 1 points by caravan (16) 2 years ago

Come on now Trashy, lock up is in 10 minutes. You don't want to miss your cookies and milk before bedtime. That's it, atta boy. We've got a nice little white jacket for you to sleep in. You see how much better you feel when you take your valium. Nighty-night!

[-] -2 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

I do love milk and cookies. Probably because I grew up beside a cookie factory in Chicago. Hmm... I can still taste the cookies now...

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Encore: You're a Lying Little Turd & no one can believe a word you say about anything - ever, 'QED' !!! +

Re."That's a long time ago, when I was still Thrasymaque." So WhoTF are you now Schizo-boy ?!!

ad iudicium ...

[-] -1 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

Learning economy from a 12 year old?!?!

ad stupidum

[-] -1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

lol.. so now we are supposed to learn economics from 12 yr olds. Great.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

You may also wish to consider : "The Biggest Financial Scam In World History" by Washington's Blog (July 06, 2012) "Why Is the Libor Scandal So Important to You ? There have been numerous big banking scandals recently. But the Libor scandal is the biggest financial scam in world history." :

radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ...

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

yes. Read about the Libor fixing scam and I am fascinated that they actually managed this. Frighteningly awesome

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

There is MUCH more to come out re. 'LIBOR' and it is only a small but very important insight into 'Bankster Corruption, Complicity, Collusion & Cartel Behaviour'.

Furthermore, "Frighteningly awesome" may not exactly be my choice of words for the larcenous, plutocratic behaviour of 'Parasitic Criminal Banksters' but I get your drift, I think - and accordingly also append :

Finally, I end by quoting Adam Smith : "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices." - and in the case of Criminal Banksters - to raise the 'price' of borrowing to the public' whilst contriving to suppress the 'costs' to Bank For Borrowing !!!

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

No, not from all "12 yr olds", but IF you may try to consider for a moment what this particular 12 yr old says, then you will have much food for thought. Don't reflexively react so readily. Alternately you could see my posts on this thread below and/or review the following links :

The fact that you may recoil at any new notions re. "The Theory of Money", is perhaps a function of & hard-wired into, your given moniker though IF you were dogmatically solely just that, then you would not even be here on this forum of course.

per ardua ad astra ....

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

money's a means to exchange good and services

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

It certainly used to be ... once !!! Also please consider :

Further, I repeat a quote from J.K.Galbraith (1908-2006) : “The study of money, above all other fields in economics, is one in which complexity is used to disguise truth or to evade truth, not to reveal it. The process by which banks create money is so simple the mind is repelled. With something so important, a deeper mystery seems only decent.”

fiat lux ...

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

money is manipulated by banks with exchange of goods and services

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Errrrr ... not quite. "Money" is simply wished into existence by act of will (fiat) and as 'credit & debit' come into existence simultaneously, all new money is owed automatically and from the very beginning.

See : http://www.webofdebt.com/flyer01.pdf &/or http://www.webofdebt.com/excerpts/introduction.php .

lux et veritas ...

[Removed]

[-] 3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

correction

money is manipulated by banks ^without* exchange of goods and services

[-] 0 points by DKAtaday (-4) from Brooklyn Park, MN 2 years ago

gratification via manipulation is best achieved with joint participation

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Still a 12 yr old. And I have enough food for thought already. A 12 yr old would find a lot of things disagreeable - like doing homework or going to school or not eating all the icecream etc. This particular 12 yr old may grow up to be an economist or a scientist and even win a Nobel Prize, but at this moment she is just a kid.

As for my hard wiring, it seems thats the standard explanation you people have for anyone who doesnt agree with you. It's not called hard wiring, it called intelligence, education and ,yes, experience.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

The fact that a twelve year old child is speaking the words is patently a 'device' in order to achieve a certain 'public relations coup' for the words themselves. What she said was more than likely written for her or if she is particularly precocious, then she was helped with writing her speech, which obviously she has learnt.

Further, Ellen Brown who wrote this piece is a very knowledgeable person and is worthy of investigation. Please see : http://ellenbrown.com/ ; http://www.webofdebt.com/ & http://publicbankinginstitute.org/ .

By "hard-wiring", I'm simply referring to your choice of moniker 'monetarist' - and call it what you like but your mere fixation on "12 yr old" as opposed to what she said OR any reference to any of the other links provided here (eg. see Prof. Michael Hudson above) - really only reflects on your own bias and apparent non-engagement with any ideas contrary to your own 'received-wisdom shibboleths' re. economics.

ad iudicium ...

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (26479) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I felt the same. She did a fine job - but the words were not her's. That being said I do believe it made a nice point that the greedy corrupt are not fooling anyone.

[-] -1 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

A critical mind would enquire - "Why bother using some gimmick like a 12 year old if the theory is sound. Why not simply present it in serious fashion with a proper discourse? No frills." Perhaps a gimmick was needed because the theory is not sound.

[-] 3 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

A real critical mind would seek to evaluate the message, not the messenger.

[-] -1 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

Yes, that's what I always say, and also said above.

In this particular case, the mentioning of the messenger's age is a prominent part of the message, if not the most important part. That's why we must question this message. Why is the age of the messenger more important in the message than the talk of the banking problems? Why is there so much emphasis on the fact that the messenger is 12 year old. If the messenger does not matter, why mention the name? Could it be that the message is weak and that the using the messenger's age as a decoy is a way to make us think there is something more to it?

[-] 2 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Take a chill pill.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

"How Big Banks Victimize Our Democracy", by Bill Moyers : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31694.htm ,

Moyers, Matt Taibbi and Yves Smith discuss the folly and corruption of both banks and government. Also, Peter Edelman on fighting U.S. poverty.

JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon’s appearances in the last two weeks before Congressional committees — many members of which received campaign contributions from the megabank — beg the question : For how long and how many ways are average Americans going to pay the price for big bank hubris, with our own government acting as accomplice ?

Rolling Stone editor Matt Taibbi and Yves Smith, creator of the finance and economics blog "Naked Capitalism" ( http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/ ), join Bill to discuss the folly and corruption of both banks and government, and how that tag-team leaves deep wounds in our democracy. Taibbi’s latest piece is “The Scam Wall Street Learned from the Mafia.” Smith is the author of "ECONned : How Unenlightened Self Interest Undermined Democracy and Corrupted Capitalism."

Meanwhile, for anyone who wants to understand why, in one of the richest nations in the world, so many poor people are teetering on the edge, author and advocate Peter Edelman talks about continuing efforts to fight poverty, and what it will take to keep the needs of poor people on the American political agenda. A former aide to Robert F. Kennedy and faculty director of Georgetown University’s Center on Poverty, Inequality, and Public Policy, Edelman’s new book is "So Rich, So Poor : Why It’s So Hard to End Poverty in America".

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 2 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Some brief, but insightful comments on poverty from Peter Edelman. For those suffering from information overload.

"The fundamental question about poverty in this country—putting aside those who need the safety net—is facing up to the fact that the economy is broken. It has a structural flaw for millions and millions of people: low-wage work."

http://www.thenation.com/article/159381/us-poverty-past-present-and-future

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Thanx for your succinct comment and quote & excellent link, which I readily recommend to all readers.

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 2 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Gesundheit !....oh, never mind, I thought that Latin was you sneezing...:-)

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Answering your quandary re. 'The Giant Vampire Squid', JC : 'By Dragging The Parsitic Monster Out Into The Daylight' - as it will then shrivel into oblivion under the scrutiny of Love, Logic & Light !!!

e tenebris, lux ... et dum spiro, spero .. ergo, fiat lux . ~*~ .

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

I was hoping it would explode into a gazillion squid bits, but I guess that's too Hollywood :-)

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Re. below, lol ... I think that 'Euler' Joking ! Q : How does one 'differentiate' a Parasitic Bankster Tapeworm from a "Giant Vampire Squid clamped on the face of The World ... sucking the life blood out of it" (Matt Taibbi re JPMC/GS) ?!! A : You can't !!!

verum ex absurdo ...

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

I know it takes a silver bullet to kill a werewolf, a wooden stake for a vampire, but I have no f''king clue how to off a Giant Vampire Squid??? How the hell do we toast this damn thing???

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Vielen Dank und fur dich ... I repeat a quote from J.K.Galbraith (1908-2006) :

“The study of money, above all other fields in economics, is one in which complexity is used to disguise truth or to evade truth, not to reveal it. The process by which banks create money is so simple the mind is repelled. With something so important, a deeper mystery seems only decent.”

Tschuss 'JC' ;-)

[-] 2 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Person 1: What's the integral of 1/cabin with respect to cabin?

Person 2: A log cabin.

Person 1: No, a houseboat; you forgot to add the C!

[-] -2 points by BoCongo (-26) 2 years ago

That's what this OWS forum has become. A place where we listen to everyone for explanations and solutions, even 12 year old girls. The scientific method and truth are not as important as us giving each other high fives. If a user posts the solution offered by a 12 year old, then you'll have to agree with it unless you want to be called a troll. That's what people here call solidarity. It trumps everything else, even good research and well founded knowledge. For them, the fact that she's 12 is the most important thing. It means that even 12 year olds are smarter than our government officials. That's conspiracy theory thinking for you. What else can we expect in this world of Jerry Springer TV shows?

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

In all honesty (even tho' you'll have no real understanding of that word!) - your baseless arrogance and faux-intellectuality are merely yet further manifestations of your own manipulations, mean-mindedness, mendacity and machinations on this forum. If you don't like what she said - say why but please don't merely fixate on "12 year olds" - it isn't healthy and will probably get you into trouble - even in Bali !!!

temet nosce ...

[-] -1 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

She's just re-hasing the banking conspiracy theories found in Zeitgeist. To see how the information in that move is tampered with, just visit one of many Zeitgeist debunking sites. Essentially, their whole explanation of fiat money and fractional banking is flawed and full of misinterpretations, misjudgments, and misdirections.

The reason this video got popular is because she is 12, not because what she says has any worth.

P.S. Why did a 12 year old girl make you think of sex?

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Trashy: Still talking outta your (..x..) and Only You mentioned "sex" in this context !!

nosce te ipsum ...

[Removed]

[-] -2 points by AudacityOfDrones (-34) from Chicago, IL 2 years ago

Who is Trashy? Anybody you deeply embedded forum ticks don't like?

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26479) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Trashy & IronButt are both hemorrhoids on the sphincter of the world.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Thus, "Preparation Humanoid" - urgently required me thinx !!!

And for you and the rest of us : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8QvxiQWp2g !!

per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26479) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

LOL - preparation humanity?

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

'Humanity Prepare' ?! per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26479) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Prepare Humanity - to fight back.

Do not go quietly into the dark.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Too Right !!! Let us NOT be Turkeys voting for Thanksgiving or Sheep 'fleeced' on way to The Slaughterhouse or like Lambs going to a Wolves' Dinner Party, any longer !! Viva The 99% !

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26479) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Let us ( the people ) tell them ( the government ) what is to be done.

Starting now - just like the move to amend - end corpoRAT personhood state by state campaign.

Unite in support of issues. Educate - Organize - push the peoples issues.

We The People in order to create a more perfect union - choose what is to be done and how it is to be done.

Up with People.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

No, not at all. Words define the (wo)man and yours are weasely ! You're most probably him, because :

  • a) You also seem to be wearing your (x) as a hat,

  • b) You've come yapping for attention just like the irksome little yappy (narc)dog that he is,

  • c) Circumstantially : "[-] -2 points by DJnoodles (-128) 17 hours ago I do love milk and cookies. Probably because I grew up beside a cookie factory in Chicago. Hmm... I can still taste the cookies now... " AND I did call Trashy a Divisive-Disinfo-Drone on a thread by 'jart' recently,

  • d) IF you were genuine you would not be interested in "Who is Trashy?" - as that is not remotely of interest to new friends here, &

  • e) Other Tells ... now do f**k off - there's a good lad !!

et temet nosce ...

[-] -2 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉▉◻▉▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉▉▉◻◻◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻◻▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉▉◻▉▉ ▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉▉◻▉▉ ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████

[-] -3 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉▉◻▉▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻▉
▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉
▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉▉▉◻◻◻▉
▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻◻▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉▉◻▉▉
▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉▉◻▉▉
████████████████████████████████████████████████████████

[+] -4 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉▉◻▉▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉▉▉◻◻◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻◻▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉▉◻▉▉ ▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉▉◻▉▉ ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

No...You are.

You always were too.

Nothing like giving the two of you a bump.

[-] -3 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉▉◻▉▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉▉▉◻◻◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻◻▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉▉◻▉▉ ▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉▉◻▉▉ ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I think I already explained this to you, but then you are the forgetful sort.

I like how these people think about how it works, and what went wrong.

Take a week or two, and let it sink in.

http://pragcap.com/understand-the-modern-monetary-system/understanding-modern-monetary-system

http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/

.

[+] -5 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

Sorry, my friend, but Zeitgeist has been debunked time and time again. Furthermore, this 12 year old girl confuses the US monetary system with the Canadian one. They are very different systems.

I suggest you learn economy from adults, not children.

████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉▉◻▉▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉▉▉◻◻◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻◻▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉▉◻▉▉ ▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉▉◻▉▉ ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████

ad stupidum

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 2 years ago

hmmmm.... well... I HATE to agree w/ the anonymous ;) ... but fiat money has it's purpose... if not abused ... but the real reason I'm posting this... IS... I can't even read that .... what is it ?

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

You've been debunked too.

But you keep comin' back.

Il idiota

I showed you MMT.

Derp, derp.

[+] -4 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

The only thing you have shown is that you are incapable of counter-arguing my claims. You are only capable of ad hominem. That won't get you far in life.

If I'm a conspiracy, then copy paste my conspiracy logo below in your replies.

████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉▉◻▉▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉▉▉◻◻◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻◻▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉▉◻▉▉ ▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉▉◻▉▉ ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████

ad stupidum

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

OK thrashy,........ whatever.

You're king of OWS for sure.

You keep on telling us it's so.

[+] -5 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

I never claimed I was the king of OWS. My only claim is that you are incapable of providing counter-arguments and using proper discourse, that's why you desperately use logical fallacies like ad hominem. You always attack the proposer and not what the proposer writes.

[-] 6 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

OOOhhhh. Big time conspiracy logo.

I'm impressed.

But you should stop acting like you are king of OWS.

The great decider of what qualifies.

Just because you hide behind so many persona's doesn't mean I've forgotten what you did here, and still are attempting to do.

You are a tyrant.

Did you read up on MMT already?

I doubt it, yet still you insist you know what you don't know.

Still you are the judge and dream of being the jury and executioner.

You are a tyrant.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

hey shooz, this guy dropped in on me a couple of times but I can't get him to reply to me, what's up? (I mean by other names of course)

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

You mean DJ noodle doodle?

He get's banned more times than my arm pit, and he still stinks, by any name he's chosen.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

guy brags about how he wants to debate then runs and hides as soon as you say boo to himm, what a hoot

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

My problem is he lies flagrantly, and refuses to admit it.

Then just goes off to another post as if nothing happened.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

readers can see, I think you do a fine job, he/they will never admit anything, it's like if they admit to one lie, the whole house of cards falls down

[-] -3 points by AudacityOfDrones (-34) from Chicago, IL 2 years ago

Why do you consider someone getting banned from this forum to be a negative connotation? What chance would the Revolution have with only groupthink-compliant lemmings like you?

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Why do you run from debate?

[+] -4 points by AudacityOfDrones (-34) from Chicago, IL 2 years ago

People I trust say Factsrfun is a Democratic Party plant. That makes him a two-party tyranny plant. And that's reason enough not to bump his posts or reply to his comments - Except of course to warn others as I just did.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

trust no one

Nader the traitor has crawled under a rock,

It’s the only place safe from the things that he wrot.

As millennia approached us, we had one last shot,

To keep the planet we’re on from getting, too damn hot.

But Nader thought better his name should be heard.

And Gore was left standing with only his word.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/search/?q=user%3Afactsrfun

but you knew it was coming….

[-] -1 points by Kevinkyle (20) 2 years ago

shooz 7390 get a life and do somethin'

[-] -3 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

I'm not a decider, not a judge. If you think I am, it is because you have bestowed this power on me. I am only sharing my opinion. You do believe in free speech don't you?

Learn about the proper method of discourse, about using logical arguments and counter-arguments. Don't do it for me, do it for yourself and OWS. Using ad hominem will not get you anywhere.

Remember, attack the arguments, not the proposer.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Riiiight. It was your bots and sock puppets.

They did all the judging, you just put them to work.

What's so logical about an oversized logo?

What's so logical about judging SOME things as conspiracy theory, and completely ignoring others?

You are VERY judgmental.

Very much a tyrant.

[-] -2 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

I used bots months ago, and it was with the help of jart, the main programmer of this site.

I have said why I consider certain things conspiracy theories. Read my comments here, I explained that this 12 year old girl got her info from Zeitgeist which is a super duper conspiracy theory movie which talks about the Illuminati and the Elders of Zion. In fact, this whole money theory is extremely anti-semite. Get educated.

I'm just expressing my opinion. If you have a problem with freedom of speech, then you should go to a right wing website like the Larouche site that posted this conspiracy theory.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Sounds like PURE 100% I am the king of OWS conspiracy theory.

You're the only one making the claim.

You've made it over and over.

Prove it, or lose from your BS rhetoric.

[-] -3 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

What claim are you talking about? I made more than one claim.

████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉▉◻▉▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉▉▉◻◻◻▉ ▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻◻▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉▉▉▉◻▉▉ ▉◻◻◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉◻▉▉▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻▉◻◻◻▉▉◻▉▉ ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I've already dealt with your pro-bot, pro-sock puppet attitude.

You just didn't accept the correct conclusion.

It was and still is, cowardly and tyrannical.

Now, how about a comment on MMT?

Instead of yet another misdirection.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Tr@shy : Just for a wee moment, lets look at some of the things that you the "proposer writes" :

  • [+] -5 points by BoCongo (-31) 15 hours ago What? I just started using this site a few hours ago. Is this how people welcome newcomers here? I just pointed out that informationclearinghouse is a known conspiracy theory site. It's not serious news you can base your claims on. Get a grip man, insulting others like that won't get you far in life. Are you some kind of sensitive conspiracy theorist that gets mad when he is debunked?

  • [-] -3 points by BoCongo (-31) 15 hours ago Sorry dude, I'm not Tr@shy. My name is Bo Hamel. I study at Columbia in NYC. I am from Kinshasa, Congo. Do you always welcome people who want to learn about Occupy with such name calling? A cunt is not only offensive to me, but also to women in general. I'm going to send a complaint to the moderators.

  • [-] -2 points by BoCongo (-30) 14 hours ago My name is Bo Hamel. I just arrived on this site today. In another thread, you called me a shit head and a cunt because I pointed out that a website you linked to is a conspiracy theory hub. Now you are stalking me? WTF? You seem like an overly sensitive person. I hope you don't represent the people on this site. It's the first time I come to a forum and get called a shit head, a cunt, and get stalked after only a few posts. Man, I wanted to get informed about OWS, but IDK anymore. I'm not sure who is being pompous. You're insulting me for no reason, and using lame latin phrases. WTF? I say relax and lay down with the conspiracy theories. They seem to be destroying your brain. As my father used to say - "Congo conga wit da bongo bonga" & ...

  • [-] 0 points by BoCongo (-30) 9 hours ago True. I remember having lots of fun learning how to tie knots. It's actually a great workout for the brain, like solving logic puzzles. We even went camping during winter and had to make our own tents from pine tree branches. Imagine, 20 kids sleeping outside in the Canadian winter without any gear except our knives and ropes. Our parents were scared, but they trusted our leader. Great times. I think I still have my shirt somewhere in the house. I feel like looking for it now. I tell you, OWS Camps might have lasted longer had all OWS protesters been scouts in their youth!

  • [-] -1 points by BoCongo (-30) 13 hours ago Boy scouts are not only fun, they are useful!

  • [-] -1 points by BoCongo (-30) 8 hours ago Since I signed up today I've been confused with a guy named Thrasy, trashy, trasy, thrassy, or some other variation. I looked them all up and none came up on the forum search. I don't know, but that character seems like some kind of God on this forum. Almost all the Best Comments are about him. Strange, I thought OWS had no leaders.

The first two above are from : http://occupywallst.org/forum/war-with-iran/#comment-752875 and the other four mendacious BS comments are just from : http://occupywallst.org/forum/sunday-june-6-nyc-solidarity-summer-coordinating-m/ & that is only taken from two recent threads that you have infected ; two out of f**k knows how many !!!

So, consider - who can believe a single word that you say about anything at all ?!!! Even a malignant sociopath and serial spammer like you must get fed up with this sh*t, hence it's clearly a reasonable inference to regard you as a 'Paid Dis-info Troll' (from abv. your "I used bots months ago") QED !!

temet nosce !

[-] -2 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

So, consider - who can believe a single word that you say about anything at all ?!

Those who care about arguments, and not the proposer's name, his karma points, his previous posts, etc... The only thing that should matter are the arguments.

As usual, the only thing you can do is use logical fallacies, in this case an ad hominem which works like the opposite of an appeal to authority.

It's sad that you can't understand my point. But, that's because you are a conspiracy theorist. One day perhaps, when you get older and drop your PlayStation and Larouche websites, one day perhaps, you'll be able to understand the art of proper discourse....

Remember, logical fallacies are weak and useless. If you have proper counter arguments, then you should put them on the table instead.

ad stupidum

per logika ad astra

P.S. I wish I was paid, but I only volunteer for OWS.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

The ONLY thing that you have of any interest to tell the rest of us is just who it is that is paying you to to do your malignant, mendacious, manipulative BS here !!! & WhoTF is "Larouche" - some other fellow francophone freakazoid from Montreal ?!! Interested readers may well wish to know ! I know that I do ...

e tenebris, lux ?

[-] -2 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

Larouche is an American conspiracy theorist. Most of your stuff comes directly from there via intormationclearinghouse.info. Arturo goes straight to the source and all his material is copy pasted as is from the Larouche website. Renneye goes on many various conspiracy theory websites to get her stuff.

I'm not paid, I volunteer for OWS. Sometimes I work with jart, and zoe, sometimes I work on other projects. I can tell you now because this website is no longer the priority it once was. Nowadays, we use Facebook and Twitter. They are getting way more hits.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (21381) 2 years ago

You change users and delete some of your loony threads on your own? Okay, whatever.

I only first heard of Larouche back in the fall from someone on here who was banned long ago. What Larouche has to say is not mutually exclusive from what any other news agency has to say. There is some overlap that I think you could find with almost any news agency.

[-] -1 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

I never deleted any of my threads. Those are shadow banned by the moderators. I do change users.

Yes, the point is Larouche material is copy pasted as is by the conspiracy theorists. arturo's postings are like this. Word for word he copies what he finds on the Larouche site.

Hey, you're smart, let's talk about something closer to Occupy. Go to this thread and watch the video. Then add some comments. This is important I think.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-evil-spawn-of-occupyblack-bloc/

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (21381) 2 years ago

Why do you keep getting banned then? And, I've never seen anything about Larouche on ICH.

[-] -2 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

I don't get banned, I change users.

Read the Larouche site, then go to ICH and you'll see most of that stuff is lifted straight from the Larouche site. It's right wing anti-semite conspiracy theories à la Alex Jones. Most of them can be traced to the Elders of Zion conspiracy theory.

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

You're a Lying Little Turd - so no one can believe a single word you say about anything - ever, 'qed' !!!

nosce te ipsum ...

ps : Readers can decide for themselves. Thus : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ et fiat lux !!!

[-] -1 points by DJnoodles (-136) 2 years ago

We can let the readers decide. I could also say "You're lying you little (insert insult here), so no one can believe you!". I don't do that because it's stupid and useless.

ad stupidum

per logika ad astra