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Forum Post: Like the SUN through the morning clouds:  Why there is GOOD REASON to have HOPE

Posted 5 years ago on Jan. 12, 2013, 8:18 a.m. EST by therising (6643)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

They say it better than I ever could:

"Truth crushed to earth rises up." - MLK Jr.

"The moral arc of the universe bends towards justice." - MLK

"A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history". 

~ Gandhi

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” - Gandhi

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."    ~  Margaret Mead

Breyton Breytonbach said this just before he was sentenced to prison in South Africa for his protest activities:. "With confidence, we lay our case before the whole world. Whether we live, or whether we die, freedom will rise here like the sun through the morning clouds.". The genuine and courageous confidence of his statement speaks volumes. He, like M L King, Jr., could feel it in his bones, just like we did in Zuccotti Park.

"No lie can live forever." - MLK

And then there's this by the Rastafarian poet, Bongo Jerry:

"Sooner or later but mus'

the dam is going to bus'

What force can stop them,

this river of people who know their course?"

And this from Stevie Wonder: "You better tell your story fast, 'cause it won't be too long."

"Sooner or later it'll all come down 'cause you can't. . push. . . people around." - unknown jazz musician

Bob Marley - "They would do anything to materialize your ev-er-y wish."

Bob Marley - "We refused to be. . . what you wanted us to be. We are what we are. That's the way it's going to be."

Bob Marley - "There's a natural mystic flowing' through the air. If you listen carefully now you will hear."

"And I am talking about getting ready because it is coming." Because there are those of us and yourselves out there who are dedicated to the proposition that it is going to happen." - CORNEL WEST from Prophetic Thought in Postmodern Times

AND THIS from P.B. Shelley:

'Rise like Lions after slumber

In unvanquishable number,

Shake your chains to earth like dew

Which in sleep had fallen on you -

Ye are many - they are few."

And this from JAMES BALDWIN's "No Name in the Street": "The representatives of the status quo are sickened and divided, and dread looking into the eyes of their young; while the excluded begin to realize, having endured everything, that they CAN endure everything. They do not know the precise shape of their future, but they know that the future belongs to them. They realize this -- paradoxically -- by the failure of moral energy of their oppressors and begin, almost instinctively, to forge a new morality, to create the principles on which a new world will be built."

Quote from John O'Donohue essay:

"Sometimes when we look out, the world seems so dark. War, violence, hunger and misery seem to abound. This makes us anxious and helpless. What can I do in my private little corner of life that could have any effect on the march of world events? The usual answer is: nothing. We then decide to do what we can for our own, and leave the great events to their domain. Thus, we opt out, and join the largest majority in the world : those who acquiesce. Believing ourselves to be helpless, we hand over all our power to forces and systems outside us that then act in our names; they go on to put their beliefs into action; and ironically these actions are often sinister and destructive.

We live in times when the call of full and critically aware citizenship could not be more urgent. We need to rediscover the careless courage, yet devastating simplicity, of the little boy who, in the middle of the numbered multitude, in naive Socratic fashion, blurts out; " But the emperor has no clothes." When spoken, the word of truth can bring down citadels of falsity.

Real presence is the ideal of all true individuation. When we yield to helplessness, we strengthen the hand of those who would destroy. When we choose indifference, we betray our world. Yet the world is not decided by action alone. It is decided more by consciousness and spirit; they are the secret sources of all action and behavior. The spirit of a time is an incredibly subtle, yet hugely powerful force. And it is comprised of the mentality and spirit of all individuals together. Therefore, the way you look at things is not simply a private matter. Your outlook actually and concretely affects what goes on. When you give in to helplessness, you collude with despair and add to it.

When you take back your power and choose to see the possibilities for healing and transformation, your creativity awakens and flows to become an active force of renewal and encouragement in the world. In this way, even in your own hidden life, you can become a powerful agent of transformation in a broken, darkened world. There is a huge force field that opens when intention focuses and directs itself toward transformation."

Dostoevsky wrote the following in the Brothers Karamazov:

"Today, everyone asserts his own personality and strives to live a full life as an individual. But these efforts lead not to a full life but to suicide, because instead of realizing his personality, man only slips into total isolation. For in our age, man has been broken up into self-contained individuals, each of whom retreats into his lair, trying to stay away from the rest, hiding himself and his belongings from the rest of mankind, and finally isolating himself from people and people from him.

And while he accumulates material wealth in his isolation, he thinks with satisfaction how mighty and secure he has become, because he is mad and cannot see that the more goods he accumulates, the deeper he sinks into suicidal impotence. The reason for this is that he has become accustomed to relying only on himself; he has split off from the whole and become an isolated unit; he has trained his soul not to rely on human help, not to believe in man and mankind, and only to worry that the wealth and privileges he has accumulated may get lost.

Everywhere men today are turning scornfully away from the truth that the security of the individual cannot be achieved by his isolated efforts but only by mankind as a whole.

BUT AN END to this fearful isolation is bound to come and all men will understand how unnatural it was for them to have isolated themselves from one another. This will be the spirit of the new era and people will look in amazement at the past when they sat in darkness and refused to see the light. . . . . . Until that day, we must keep hope alive, and now and then a man must set an example, even if only an isolated one, by trying to lift his soul out of its isolation and offering it up in an act of brotherly communion, even if he is taken for one of God's fools.

This is necessary to keep the great idea alive."

Albert Einstein said this:

“A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.”

Martin Luther King, Jr. put it this way:  "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be and you can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be.  We are, all of us, inextricably linked."



Read the Rules
[-] 9 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

Seven Deadly Social Sins by Gandhi

Politics without Principle

Wealth without work

Commerce without morality

Pleasure without conscience

Education without character

Science without humanity

Worship without sacrifice

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 5 years ago

Wow. Great list. Powerful.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8329) from Phoenix, AZ 5 years ago

He could of just had one, lying.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

So true Facts.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8329) from Phoenix, AZ 5 years ago

Of course I'm sure that Gandhi understood the need to say things in different ways to increase understanding, please don't consider it a criticism.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

Not at all. ' Lying', like so many other words in our vocabulary has lost it's true meaning. We don't value the written or the spoken word and because technology has allowed us to write messages in abbreviated sound bytes, people settle for very little meaning in anything.
We live in a time when it's become socially acceptable to tell half truths- which of course are lies. Even worse, when anyone attempts to question or seek clearer understanding of the half truth, the liar shifts the blame of ignorance and responsibility of deriving the true meaning of anything on the victim instead of accepting responsibility for being deceptive. This is how corporate america operates with all their ' fine print' and how individuals treat each other. This is how sociopaths operate.

It takes daily work to strengthen a conscience. It requires living with immense integrity, transparency, lack of pretentiousness, being completely forthright and honest. I was always taught that it was terribly rude, arrogant and disrespectful if I did not articulate my thoughts well or enunciate my words since it would indicate that I did not care if anyone was listening. Making our words matter and giving them literal meaning isn't just a matter of having self respect, it's a matter of showing respect for others.

Diluted and distorted communication is so commonplace that most people don't even bother listening to each other. But, even listeners are lying because they don't command clarity and transparency.

I had a strange experience re: lying years ago. I had applied for a job at a garden center and they gave me a personality test..can't remember which one but one of the questions on there was " have you ever stolen anything from your employer" and I answered yes. It then asked me to explain. I wrote down that I had stolen office supplies like pens, pencils, paper tablets. Apparently, the people reviewing the results assumed that I was diluting the truth by making little of what I had ' really' stolen which was money. They called my former employer and asked if I had ever stolen anything from her. My former boss told them, ' Are you kidding? She's the most honest person I've ever known". They called me and asked me why I bothered to mention office supplies since they were so insignificant.
HUH? I had to explain to them that anytime a person takes anything that does not belong to them, it's stealing. I did not ask if I could take the pens and other supplies home, I just took them home and granted, I wasn't intentionally out to rob them and those things probably ended up in my purse accidentally, but it's still stealing. I had to explain that my employer paid for those items to be used at work, not for my personal use and so they did have value. Facts, they simply didn't get it and these are people who are testing and doubting others' morality? After our discussion, I told them that I appreciated their offer but that I was not interested in working for anyone who did not understand the definition of stealing. When I look back on that, I realize that it was probably them who were the real thieves- who steal valuable time and energy from their employees for little pay. Interesting how that works isn't it?

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8329) from Phoenix, AZ 5 years ago

If I may Gillian, it appears to me that you are on a path toward understanding, might I share this experience, at some point, I'm not quite sure when, but as I began to see more things, I realized that truthfulness does not require saying everything you see, it just requires not distorting what you see. It is a little thing, one I wished I had learned before I lost so many friends, after all folks are folks, who am I to judge?

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

Not sure what you mean Facts by truthfulness does not require saying everything. If you regret losing friends, then maybe it's possible that you were not being honest with yourself and maybe too judgmental for that reason.

I don't believe we should judge others but we can surely discern. Discernment is what enables us to uphold our core values, morals and ethics.
There is only one truth for me..the whole truth. If the whole truth makes anyone uncomfortable ( and it surely does, I know) I can't do anything about that but I won't diminish it's value by avoiding it.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8329) from Phoenix, AZ 5 years ago

my apologies, I presume facts not in evidence...

as far as my own comfort, if that were my concern I would not be looking for change....my point is as it has always been set aside the ego, let go of the control and tell the truth, things will have a way of working out....

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

I agree. As the old adage states, ' The truth will set you free'. It isn't an easy path to take though and like you, I've lost many in my life who would have been more comfortable had I chosen to deceive myself and others. But, there is nothing more alive, raw and real than living each moment in truth. Even the painful truth will often enrich our lives with more meaningful relationships and experiences.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8329) from Phoenix, AZ 5 years ago

Sometimes one of the most difficult things becomes discerning the moment when expression of truth becomes an expression of ego. As a metaphor, say someone is a gifted student and quick to answer when the teacher asks, after all is it the truth that you understand? then one day you realize others might have something to offer, or need more time to speak, is it a lie to slow your hand?

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

Facts, have you read " The Second Rule of Ten"? There is also a First Rule in the series. Anyway, I found it to be very entertaining as well as full of wisdom ( LIfe of Pi is another great story). There was one line in the book that I cannot find but it relates to what you were saying about discernment and being aware of whether you're ego is being selfish or not. The line in the book described a situation where the character, Ten was using adversity in his life to limit himself in order to appear non-threatening. However, because he was allowing his ego to prevent him from living an authentic life, all sorts of adversity kept entering his life. It wasn't until Ten realized that he was trying to do the right thing for the wrong reasons that things began to improve.
Anytime my life quits working for me, I know I need to examine the lie I'm telling myself.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8329) from Phoenix, AZ 5 years ago

no I haven't, none of those, read a lot of Hesse many years ago, rereading Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, now, found out I had a bit in common with the author and wanted to see if it affected my view of the work,

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 5 years ago

Ah, then you are relooking at all the different philosophers. Very good. I remember falling a sleep over many months trying to read the Zen and the art of motorcycle maintence. I liked it, but it didn't sink in real well. I guess I need repetition in this case. Actually I spend some years thinking back wondering if I could write a similar book like that one. I still think there is room for books like that. i like the concept. It would help me to learn more of the different philosophers too of course.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

I love that book. I read it ( Zen...) way back in the early 80's and then again in audio format a couple of years ago. It's nice to revisit those oldies.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8329) from Phoenix, AZ 5 years ago

Rhetoric is sort of my thing, you might have noticed, if more people understood it better we might not be in this mess.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

Rhetoric is a fine thing as long as it doesn't resemble GWB's.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

It would only be a lie IF you really wanted to answer the question first and had some other selfish hidden motivation for not raising your hand. Otherwise, you're just being a thoughtful, fair and compassionate person.

Perhaps a better example would be someone being a whisteblower in order to receive fame or other accolades.

Hence, there should never be any motivation or incentive in telling the truth other than having the satisfaction of knowing that you are living in alignment with your own personal beliefs.

The tattletale was always discouraged because throughout history, the tattletale was only motivated to tell the truth in order to belittle someone else in order to make themselves appear better. They had no moral compass, no integrity. It was just about themselves and basking in their own glory.

Doing the right thing has become secondary to compensation. We can buy almost any story if we have enough money to do so.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8329) from Phoenix, AZ 5 years ago

thank you for the feedback

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33688) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Nice! So much to consider in such a short list - very radical ( to the heart of ills ).

[-] -1 points by aville (-678) 5 years ago

gandhi ( the well known public pacifist) also said in his autobiography,......." among the many misdeeds for british rule in india, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms is he blackest" .

[-] 3 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

and I agree because disarming a nation leads to despotic rule. However, we need to address our culture of violence. Those who believe that media does not contribute should examine the correlation between violent parents and violent children- especially since we live in a culture of parentless children who are babysat by media. Let's also examine the effects of violent sports on cultural aggression and competition.

[-] -1 points by aville (-678) 5 years ago

used be that having a kid ( or just being pregant ) without being married was NOT something to shout about. not anymore, even with all the birth control available, women are getting pregant and having the kid. O.K. what then,.........no education, no father,........WELFARE. what violent sports? also,.there is nothing wrong with competition,. competiton is good, kids should strive to do better, why should kids get a medal for just showing up? in life,.......you're supposed to show up, thats the basic work ethic. after that , you should be trying everyday to do your job ( whatever it is) better and better.

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

We tend to glorify the worst aspects of our human character these days- like with those reality of shows of teenage pregnancy that make it cool to have a kid. The media screams that they have no effect on civilization but yet, if that were true, then why do they risk creating such shows to begin with? They know darn well that they will rake in millions because they DO have an effect. Entertainment doesn't need to be rude, lewd, violent and immoral in order to be appealing but once again, the competition drove everyone to up the ante, pushing all boundaries until no boundaries existed. Even our elected officials behave like drunken sailors with absolutely no professional etiquette anymore. Their behavior speaks to how little respect they have for their jobs, each other and mostly us, their employer. It has been said of sport, "It does not create the conditions for war, but it does maintain the possibility of those conditions, and adds its own efficiency to the other forces which produce a social order in which trails of strength are seen as part of the natural course of things" . George Orwell once made the observation, "Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence; in other words it is war minus the shooting."

When you think more deeply about the quotes above, you will understand why our governments and educational institutions pride themselves on sports and invest more money into those programs more than any other. The government doesn't pride itself on producing well educated, well rounded citizens with good character and compassion. Those qualities don't appeal to corporate America. They are looking for the most aggressive, most assertive pitbulls in the ring who will do their dirty work and make them wealthy in a short time. People are not honored and respected for good character, they are respected for " winning" without any consideration for the consequences. I've known teachers who have more respect for bullies than their victims. We make athletes heroes and even if they are pedophiles, abusers, rapists, animal torturers, drug addicts, liars or thieves, as long as they score, they are a hero. We treat athletes like sub-human machines and we pay them ridiculous salaries while our true soldiers on the battlefields are barely able to support their own families- many returning to their homeland as homeless. There is something terribly corrupt in our value system. We are a very ill society.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

Why does anyone need a medal? What does a medal prove anyway? That I'm better than someone else? Nah...it doesn't work...I have medals and they mean nothing to me really. I know plenty of ' winners' who are depressed, never satisfied, never fulfilled- probably because they looked outside of themselves for success. Here's a really good book for you to read regarding American sports and competition...the author is not opposed but sheds some pretty glaring light on the topic: Until It Hurts: America's Obsession with Youth Sports and How It Harms Our Kids

by Mark Hyman

[-] -1 points by aville (-678) 5 years ago

a medal ( 1st 2nd 3rd place) is a validation of your superior effort.same with being validictorian . you dont have to participate but why put down those who achieve?

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

I'm not demeaning anyone who achieves. I just want to know why someone would need a medal? Like I said, I have plenty of them myself but they mean nothing to me. All they show is that I achieved one thing at one time in my life. Doesn't mean I'm better than anyone else, just means that the judges thought I was and it certainly doesn't mean that I will continue to achieve. It's a very superficial illusion that feeds the ego, not a person's character. How many people would play sports if there were no score board? No medals? If good character were taught to children instead of teaching them to rely on superficial rewards, we may actually produce a sustainable culture with depth of character and who have a true sense of self respect and therefore, respect others.

[-] -1 points by aville (-678) 5 years ago

the medal is the symbol of achievment. ever watch the olympics? they give out medals. actually , if you got a medal for your achievement , it does mean , at that time and that place , you were better than soneone else because YOU got the medal. people train for years to achieve in sports, it requires dedication , setting a goal, effort, which can be used in other areas of that persons life.

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

I don't need a medal or anyone's good opinion of me to know whether or not I gave my best at anything I do. To think that I was better than someone else or more deserving of anything at any given time is unrealistic since so many factors can influence outcome. I believe the important thing is that everyone enjoy what they do and do what they love. Then everyone's a winner.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33688) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

It is always nice to get a hug. {:-])

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

YES IT IS! Even a pat on the back or someone just reaching out to touch my arm. Those just make my day :D

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33688) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Yes - so much more so when it is a spontaneous/unexpected action.

[-] -1 points by aville (-678) 5 years ago

i guess you never participated in any sports, be it on a team or by yourself. in other areas, who wants to listen to a "musician" that cant play their instrument? who wants to read a badly written book? would you go to a doctor that was dropped from of med school and never got accredited? would you be a passenger on a plane piloted by someone that just loves to fly but has no idea of what they're doing?

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

You're either being silly or you are truly so gullible that I fear you are the reason why our country is in the state it is. So are you qualified to decided who is the best at their craft? Isn't that being a bit unrealistic? Do you really believe that ALL doctors who have a diploma are qualified? That all drivers with licenses know how to operate their vehicle properly? Whether someone passes a test or wins an award doesn't really tell me anything other than they are good test takers and or performers. There are plenty of school dropouts who became very successful.

[-] -2 points by aville (-678) 5 years ago

im as qualified as any other person. do you really think a tone deaf singer with no vocal ability will draw an audience? will that person be hired by the Metropolitan Opera? i wasnt talking about dropouts that became sucessful, doctors have to pass tests,...........so do dentists .............. . woud you get on a plane with someone that wants to fly it but has never flown a plane before but likes the way they look?

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33688) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

I believe you replied to the wrong comment.

[-] 0 points by aville (-323) 2 minutes ago

learn to read and comprehend, i said if the person had no qualifications , no training. . ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] -2 points by aville (-678) 5 years ago

a " reply" wasnt under the comMent i wanted to reply to, so i chose a comment that did have a " reply".

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33688) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Would make more sense if you found a reply button to the individual you wanted to reply to.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

Ever heard of free will? If someone doesn't like my fiddle playing they can leave. If I depend on that for income and I'm not drawing a crowd, then I need to find another source of income.
Doctors and dentists can pass tests without being qualified to do their job. So can engineers, so can anyone who is good at remembering enough material to pass. Drivers pass tests but I sometimes wonder if they actually comprehended the material given how they drive. Pilots that are unskilled fly planes all the time. They only make a very minimal hourly wage so there isn't a whole lot of incentive there to educate oneself in aviation. It's just a job and besides most planes today fly themselves. Did you know that many pilots are on food stamps? Kinda makes you think twice about getting on board, eh?

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33688) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Doctors and dentists can pass tests without being qualified to do their job. So can engineers

So true - i met many Book smart(?) individuals when I worked in machine shop manufacturing - some could not transfer their Book Learning to practical use.

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

Yes sir. I have known too many of those myself. The SOL testing sort of breeds that kind of rote memory skill but severely lacks in teaching other cognitive learning skills and applications.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33688) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Not to worry though : http://occupywallst.org/forum/60-minutes-tonight-1132013-the-worlds-new-core-of-/

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1255) 4 minutes ago

Yes sir. I have known too many of those myself. The SOL testing sort of breeds that kind of rote memory skill but severely lacks in teaching other cognitive learning skills and applications. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] -2 points by aville (-678) 5 years ago

learn to read and comprehend, i said if the person had no qualifications , no training. .

[-] -1 points by aville (-678) 5 years ago

remembering information is one thing, being adept at performing the tasks sucessfully is another. commercial pilots make anywhere from $36,000 small planes to over $165,00 for captains of large commercial jets. you stil didnt answer my question,....would you get on a plane with someone who has no training, no qualifications but thinks it would be cool to fly a plane?

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

Sure if the pilot knew how to fly a plane.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33688) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Don't put down honest healthy achievement - but rewards are often not for anything of the kind.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

That's right. If I believe that I've succeeded whether I win or earn a reward, then I will be a happy person who makes others happy. If I spend my life constantly comparing myself to others, I will lose myself and be a very lonely unhappy woman.
Success comes from within and cannot be measured by anyone or anything outside of ourselves. " I'll see it, when I believe it" is my motto.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33688) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Personal success achievement is it's own reward and oft times can be related to doing something for someone else - no need for fanfare.

Beauty rewards male/female seem to be given to those who are attractive and in listening to them figured easy to get sex from.

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

Well said. Fanfare is for the shallow. That's why we have hundreds of teddy bears sitting in the rain in Newtown.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33688) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

An outpouring of grief - but I think better placed if those who sent or placed remembrances for the victims - instead got involved in confronting issues like affordable health care for ALL - including access to mental health care. But then also staying involved and addressing unemployment/off-shoring/lack of living wage - The Ills of society that breed senseless violence.

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 5 years ago

Exactly. Let's not let the children die in vain. Let's give their lives and deaths purpose by helping to create a better world. It would be nice to look back on that event and know that it was a catalyst for positive change in America and not just another memorial of misery.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33688) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Say it again - please continue saying it. We ( the People ) need to get a-hold of our emotions take a real long hard look at the world around us - AND GET BUSY. For all of the victims - Here - AND AROUND THE WORLD.

Go after the causes not the symptoms of the wide spread illnesses.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 5 years ago

"You can crush the flowers, but you can't stop the spring."

Alexander Dubchek from the Prague Spring


[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 5 years ago


[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 5 years ago

I love that quote. At an OWS gathering in Washington Square Park, there were people painting signs on the ground. I approached one young lady wanting her to paint that quote for me. She handed me a brush, and pointed to the paint and a piece of cardboard, and told me to paint it, so I did, and laid it on the ground. Suprisingly that sign with those words made it into the mainstream media (corrupt). I.think it was the WSJ, who was covering the event.


[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 5 years ago

That's fantastic. I love it. The quote really reminds us that there are bigger things than human society. There are forces at work that are far more powerful than anything we might design. We can either align our human activities with those forces, those seasons, those waves, those tides or we can feebly attempt to resist it with comical valor. The elite corporatists worshipping the Wall St. Journal look serious and important in their $10,000 handmade suits, but, when you get right down to it, their arrogance and confidence is comical. . . especially when the camera pulls back for the observer to witness the entire scene in context. Their arrogant, haughty and selfish demeanor in "the zoomed in version" may look like confidence, but when the camera pulls way way back to reveal the 150 foot tidal wave bearing down on them, they just look silly.

Don't mess with mother nature. . . She bites hard.

I think there are accounts in Black Elk Speaks of Native Americans describing the look in the eyes of the white people (wachusi) they encountered for the first time. As I recall, the Oglala Sioux described the wachusi as appearing to be gripped by a sickness -- one that made them blind and deaf to the impact of their actions on other people and the world. They basically described the wachusi of being "users" and "takers", something that stood out in bold relief when set aside their "base every decision on looking forward every 7 generations" philosophy.

I like to think that the spirit of the native people of this land is helping to power this new season in America, this spring that is now emerging. Black Elk at the end of his life was very dismayed and troubled at the state of affairs in this land but I suspect he would be heartened somewhat by the season of Occupy.

Here comes the sun!

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 5 years ago

Thanks, that was a great comment.I suspect that many people are "heartened ....by the season of Occupy." There is much that the white man could learn from indigenous people, but he rarely takes the time to listen. One of my daughters is in grad school for anthropology at UA Achorage, and I have had many conversations on the native people of the world and Alaska in particular. Talking with her about anthropology over the years has given me a perspective that i did not previouly have or at least not to the degree that I have now, and it has given me the ability to look at the bigger picture. The teacher has been demoted to student. ;-)

I just finished telling gnomunny on another thread how elated that i was that two of the teachers that my granddaughter has in pre-school in AK are very gracious young Athabascan native women, and how i suspected that their influence will be instumental into the well-rounded young lady that she will become.

That of course was followed by one of my trademark cracks. "At least the latter should counter-act the effects of having crazy old grandpa visit form the east coast." lol

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 5 years ago

Wow - that must be so cool to have the chance to learn from your daughter and granddaughter - and a bonus that some of that learning is and will be transmission of knowledge about the wisdom of native people. The teacher becomes the student indeed. If you're looking for a new book sometime, you'd love the book "Widdom of the Elders" by Suzuki and Kniedson. It is written from both an anthropological and a spiritual perspective.and surveys the wisdom of indigineous cultures throughout the world and throughout history. It's academic value is high but that pales in comparison to its spiritual value. So many lessons for us moderns who think we're so "advanced" :)

It seems to be a book that comes up a lot in college classes so perhaps your daughter has already read it or maybe you already have as well. If not, I think you'd love it. Powerful and scientific exploration of wisdom we need to discover and quick in order to mend our ways as a society. Gives real hope! Black Elk Speaks is great tool.


[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 5 years ago

You will never get old, in mind anyway as long as you keep your mind open to learning. I have greatly improved my ability to listen, especially to the young people.

In the past 18 months here, I have learned so much from some of the great contibutors to this forum including yourself, and even from people that i have had strong disagreements with.

Very humbly, I will admit that this place more than anywhere else is where I put the pieces of the puzzle together.

And lastly I have been buoyed by the kindred, indomitable spirits on here.

I will look for these books, and ask my one daughter if she has read either of them.


[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 5 years ago

I agree with everything you said above. You really do stay young if you remain open to new ideas. Also when you stay present and react spontaneously to things in this moment, instead of from a reactionary programmed position that feels free but is really just a production of unchallenged assumptions we absorbed from somewhere else. James Baldwin on ce said, "A man is not a man until he can face and use his experience." Baldwin was a small man in stature but a literary giant whose essay "The Fire Next Time" so rattled the cage of the powerful that Bobby Kennedy summoned him to a meeting of the minds with a dozen other luminaries to discuss civil rights issues. Baldwin lovingly yet forcefully scolded Kennedy in the meeting

All this came from Baldwin challenging every assumption he ever had and finally thinking for himself, "stepping out of the lie and the trap of his history" as he put it. He beautifully noted that he saw some young white men and women come to freedom on that same road and thatTorrey said to me exactly what I had always wanted to say to them. That they could step out of the lie and the trap lf their history and be, just be. Their being recalled to life was a beautiful thing to behold."

What a discovery, to realize this at the age of 18 or 80 --- it truthfully doesn't matter in the end as long as at some point our "dungeon shakes" (as Baldwin out it) and we step out of that lie and trap of our history, face and use our experience, test all our assumptions and those of others and become out OWN PEOPLE instead of a conglomeration of "attitudes".

If you ever get time to pick up Baldwin's essay the Fire Next Time or Nothing Personal, check them out. Extraordinary. They shook my dungeon when I was 19 and I've never been the same since! :). Baldwin's novels "Another Country" and "No Name in the Street" are incredibly powerful and moving as well. He's not just writing in his fiction and nonfiction about civil rights and the lives of those who struggle for freedom, he writes about what it is to be human. And by the way, he writes so beautifully that sometimes you just put down the book after reading a paragraph and smile in amazement. It's authentic and from the heart and it therefore resonates with your own heart and soul.

Your dungeons shake. You laugh. You weep. And you find yourself alive in this world in all its vivid splendor. Isn't about time that all our dungeons shook?

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 5 years ago

Thanks, there is a lot to digest in your comment. It bothers me how today, and at different points in history how/why so few good people haven't been able to step back from where their society is and try to right the wrongs of their time.Your journey is one that I am on too, but i have a long way to go. I have written down the names of those books/essays.

On another note, I met with some of those beautiful OWS/OTS people at a meeting last night in NYC. I always feel so buoyed after having seen them. I have never felt so close to people in such a short period of time.


[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 5 years ago

That in person solidarity is powerful and nourishing :). That's the best stuff. That's where it's at.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 5 years ago


[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 5 years ago

Cheers :)

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 5 years ago

The words of protest.

They come from a center we all share. They reflect an innate understanding, & belief that we MUST be free from oppression.

The words of protest illustrate a common need for fairness, equal opportunity, real justice.

Just as no progress is made unless a small group begins the process of agitation, we know that all those groups do not succeed without words of protest, with existing classic words of protest & their own words of protest, And only if the words of protest tap into the shared sense of humanity that always bubbles up when unfairness, & oppression exist.

For me the most effective words of protest reflect the reality that "we are all in this together" that we are "strongest together", and that "we must treat each other as we want to be treated".

And although there are always opposing forces, None can sufficiently deny for long the truth of the words.

Although the words of protest are always attacked and often appear silenced, Even though they are ridiculed, outlawed, & forced underground, Eventually the words are heard, sometimes spread slowly, whispered in the dark, in secret, in fear, but the words are heard, embraced, protected, passed on, and used to free one people, then another. One generation and then the next.

The words cannot, & will not ever truly be silenced. The words spread slowest before writing but still they spread. Defeating the oppressor was slow until the mass of humanity read and had access to more words, but now we have the words at our fingertips and can use the words for widespread improvement for humanity.

We CAN, and in fact are obligated to spread the words of protest. We are driven by all the common struggle and yearning for freedom, & justice to spread the words.

And in a fundamental cycle that we cannot resist, it is the words of protest that encourage us to spread the words.

We are driven by the words to convince wider acceptance of the concepts the words convey. And the oppressor is powerless against the underlying concepts of the words when wider acceptance occurs, and our numbers overwhelm the weakness of opposing words.


That is what I think of as I read the good words in your post.

Thanks. Important to be frequently reminded (through words) what we fight for, who has shared the fight, and how long the fight has raged.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 5 years ago

You were very eloquent in complimenting the rising's words. I wish more of your comments were like this.


[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 5 years ago

Thanks so much for this heartfelt response. Well said.. So much to be grateful for. Thanks for reminding me. Much appreciated.