Forum Post: Israel Attacking Gaza Via Land, Air and Sea
Posted 11 years ago on Nov. 15, 2012, 9:51 p.m. EST by hchc
(3297)
from Tampa, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
This may be the flash point to the larger takeover that many have been predicting for a while. Israel threatening a ground invasion, and enough action to end this forever.
Bombs, bombs and more bombs. Good thing we didn't radically shake up our power structure this upcoming election. Wouldn't want 150 yrs of party promises and deals roping us into someone elses bullshit.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/14/us-palestinians-israel-hamas-idUSBRE8AD0WP20121114
There is not any Doubt.The condition of the Palestinians is what everyone else can expect,sooner or later,in their own community.I live far from Jordan and/or Southern Lebanon.Hopefully I will have died of generalized poor health before Israel drastically expands construction of housing for Jewish Settlers in Upstate NY,
"War on Gaza: Global leaders must find the courage to hit Israel and the USA where it hurts"!
"Non-binding UN votes will never stop the Gaza genocide. Only boycotts, banning weapons sales, & severing diplomatic ties will force Israel and the US to heed the clamour for peace"!
And "There is no way to 'explain' Israel's conduct in" Gaza. "Destruction, killing, starvation & siege in such monstrous dimensions can no longer be explained or justified,even by an effective propaganda machine like Israeli public diplomacy (hasbara)." - FROM:
"There is No Way to 'Explain' the Degree of Death and Destruction in Gaza"! - by Gideon Levy .. https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-12-28/ty-article-opinion/.premium/theres-no-way-to-explain-the-degree-of-death-and-destruction-in-gaza/0000018c-ace3-d22d-a3dd-bdfb92870000
& further consider - "A Threshold Crossed" https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution & also note:
Finally "For the Safety of Jews and Palestinians, Stop Weaponizing Antisemitism" An Op-Ed by Bernie Steinberg: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/12/29/steinberg-weaponizing-antisemitism/
respice; adspice; prospice ...
Note how “Sanctions On Israel Are The Only Hope” by Israel’s most distinguished journalist Gideon Levy:
From which,this: "Gideon Levy is a man of immense moral courage and leadership: the award-winning Ha’aretz columnist has spoken out against the atrocities committed against the Palestinian people and has become an increasingly lone voice.Here he tells how Israeli society has degenerated to a terrifying degree,why he has so little hope,the forgotten horrors of the West Bank and why the only chance for a just peace will come from sanctions against Israel." And finally, please consider the information here ...
http://occupywallst.org/forum/mandela-legislator-arabs-misappropriate-apartheid-/#comment-1082661
and NB: https://truthout.org/series/struggle-and-solidarity-writing-toward-palestinian-liberation/
Also note re.the "Flour Massacre" - "Gaza’s Night of Death and Hunger" by Gideon Levy: https://informationclearinghouse.blog/2024/03/05/gazas-night-of-death-and-hunger/10/
Further, "Israeli General’s Son: Last 6 Months of Genocide Are ‘Beginning of the End’ for Israel"! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guDtB9B7b3s [51m, w/Miko Peled & Brian Becker]
Finally note - "A Genocide Foretold"! by Chris Hedges: https://chrishedges.substack.com/p/a-genocide-foretold
"The genocide in Gaza is the final stage of a process begun by Israel decades ago. Anyone who didn't see this coming blinded themselves to the character and ultimate goals of the apartheid state." AND ...
PS https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/29/us-weapons-israel-gaza-war/
PPS: "Prof. Richard Wolff on Israel as a Project of Colonial Capitalism" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZRu6pKTGPc (15m)
fiat lux, fiat justitia et; fiat pax ...
It’s Mostly Punishment: Testimonies by Veterans of the Israeli Defense Forces From Gaza
Monday, 26 November 2012 10:39 By Oded Naaman, TomDispatch | News Analysis
http://truth-out.org/news/item/12956-it’s-mostly-punishment-testimonies-by-veterans-of-the-israeli-defense-forces-from-gaza
Thats an interesting article. There are so many layers to this problem, and I dont think leadership on either side has any intention of compromise.
'The Worst Day in Gaza' IS NOW EVERYDAY, day after day after day!
The vid is 3 months old yet still true! We need a CEASEFIRE NOW ffs!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEoxVRolqfs [4m 31s] & NB:
https://twitter.com/incontextmedia/status/1746343873612226953
As"Game of Thrones stars and other actors read South Africa's case file
charging Israel with genocide at the ICJ"! - [An essential 10m 12s video]
multum in parvo!
"Noam Chomsky ; My Visit to Gaza, the World's Largest Open-Air Prison" :
Written a week before the current descent into further murderous mayhem.
fiat lux et fiat pax ...
"Noam Chomsky ; My Visit to Gaza, the World's Largest Open-Air Prison" - Thank you for posting this very important article here. I hope that people will read and reflect both on this moving article and the thread and other links too. Never Give Up! Solidarity!
This Chomsky piece on Gaza really is second to none, imo - hence of course it is being resolutely ignored, lol and further :
"Did Israel Assassinate Hamas Leader To Prevent a Permanent Truce? Israeli peace activist: Jabari Killed Amid Talks on Long-term Truce" , by Nir Hasson : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33070.htm &/or
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-peace-activist-hamas-leader-jabari-killed-amid-talks-on-long-term-truce.premium-1.478085
"Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate between Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Gilad Shalit, says Israel made a mistake that will cost the lives of 'innocent people on both sides.'"
fiat lux et fiat pax ...
From the 'Haaretz', article -- "Hours before Hamas strongman Ahmed Jabari was assassinated, he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel, which included mechanisms for maintaining the cease-fire in the case of a flare-up between Israel and the factions in the Gaza Strip. This, according to Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate between Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Gilad Shalit and has since then maintained a relationship with Hamas leaders.
Baskin told Haaretz on Thursday that senior officials in Israel knew about his contacts with Hamas and Egyptian intelligence aimed at formulating the permanent truce, but nevertheless approved the assassination.
“I think that they have made a strategic mistake," Baskin said, an error "which will cost the lives of quite a number of innocent people on both sides."
"This blood could have been spared. Those who made the decision must be judged by the voters, but to my regret they will get more votes because of this,” he added.
People need to read this two part link. Thanks very much again for your diligence in trying to bring the real facts to us. Never Give Up! Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours & I give thanks for people like you.
I appreciate your excerpts and perhaps I should have forum-posted the article. Further, on this matter :
"Israel's leaders don't want a Palestinian state, Carter tells Metro in an exclusive interview".
e tenebris, lux ...
[Deleted]
Try to consider that "Israel Knew Hamas’s Attack Plan Over a Year Ago ... The New York Times"!!!
https://informationclearinghouse.blog/2023/12/01/israel-knew-hamass-attack-plan-over-a-year-ago-the-new-york-times/ by Ronen Bergman (Text and video)
https://youtu.be/vu4Txxw9bOo (a 11m stand alone video link)
& note that: "Ronen Bergman is a staff writer for The New York Times Magazine, based in Tel Aviv. His latest book is “Rise and Kill First: The Secret History of Israel’s Targeted Assassinations”, published by Random House. Via the New York Times".
Also "Documents expose Israeli conspiracy to facilitate October 7 attack"!! https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/12/02/klox-d02.html -- by Andre Damon & now, consider:
"Israel Is Losing this War"! Tony Karon & Daniel Levy: https://www.thenation.com/article/world/israel-gaza-war/
NB: "Despite the violence it has unleashed on Palestinians, Israel is failing to achieve its political goals."
Further: "This Is Not a War Against Hamas"! https://theintercept.com/2023/12/11/israel-hamas-war-civilians-biden/ by Jeremy Scahill
"The notion that the war would end if Hamas was overthrown or surrenders is as ahistorical as it is false"
NB: "The Grayzone has obtained slides from a confidential Israel lobby presentation based on data from Republican pollster, Frank Luntz. They contain talking points for politicians and public figures seeking to justify Israel’s assault on the Gaza Strip."
e tenebris lux?!I!
Interesting, isn't it, how so many seem to forget that the Palestinians are under de facto occupation?
From Chomsky, "And it hardly takes more than a day in Gaza to appreciate what it must be like to try to survive in the world's largest open-air prison, where some 1.5 million people on a roughly 140-square-mile strip of land are subject to random terror and arbitrary punishment, with no purpose other than to humiliate and degrade."
And, how easy can it be to live in a place where there isn't even enough water? "The water supply is still severely limited. The U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), which cares for refugees but not other Gazans, recently released a report warning that damage to the aquifer may soon become "irreversible," and that without quick remedial action, Gaza may cease to be a "livable place" by 2020."
Further to the Noam Chomsky article above and with apologies and a WARNING for the strong content, I append :
'Netanyahu Speaks On Israeli Morality' (Video) : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33044.htm ;
'Israel Would Have Us Believe That These People Are Terrorists' : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33036.htm ;
"The Story Behind the Photo - Journalist’s 11-month-old Son Killed in Gaza Strikes", by Max Fisher : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33037.htm ;
'Norman Finkelstein Says Netanyahu Is "A Maniac"' (Video By RT) : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33046.htm &
"How Israel Shattered Gaza Truce - A Timeline", by Ali Abunimah : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33038.htm .
Re. Gaza, where is the <3 'bw' ?!
fiat justitia ruat caelum ...
I have some of the <3, lol. Listen, I may be naive, but I just don't understand the surprise at the Palestinians defending themselves. If one group of people pushes another off their land and forces them to live in one small section where the bullying group controls the airspace and access to water transportation and hence, trade and resources, why would anyone be surprised that the occupied people might be pissed off! WTF!?
Your links are upsetting, but they tell the truth and the truth is what needs to get out as painful as that might be.
All killing is wrong and so is all occupation!
"All killing is wrong and so is all occupation!" - simple, succinct and sensible - hence unsaid by MSM !!!
For some further quite reflection, please also consider the annual 'Edward Said Memorial Lecture' at the University of Adelaide delivered by the inestimable Professor Ilan Pappe on :
Celebrated Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe whose landmark publication, "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine", documented the planned removal of 700,000 Palestinians from their lands in 1948, has written a new book "The Forgotten Palestinians". In the book and at this September 16th community meeting at Sydney University, Pappe reveals the situation for the Palestinians who still live within Israel's borders and very really Gaza under the de facto occupation which you describe, is exactly that !!
This was the first event of Professor Pappe's 2012 Australian lecture tour. It was hosted by the Sydney Peace Foundation at the University of Sydney with the Coalition for Justice and Peace in Palestine and Leichhardt Friends of Hebron. The lecture is on matters which seldom receive any airplay in the U.S.A. !
e tenebris, lux ...
Ilan Pappe is a tireless supporter of the truth. Thanks for this link. It is really important to listen to people like him as the MSM has no interest in the truth.
"Operation Short Memory - Uri Avnery", by Gush Shalom :
"The name chosen for the new war in Gaza is "operation Cloud Pillar". A far more appropriate name would have been "Operation Short Memory" Said former Knesset member Uri Avnery, Gush Shalom activist. "Prime Minister Netanyahu is counting on the public's short memory. Netanyahu counts upon people forgetting that dozens and even hundreds of "liquidations" had been carried out and they did not solve any problem - always there was somebody replacing those who were killed, and more than once the new one was more capable and more radical. Netanyahu counts on people not remembering that four years ago Israel went to war on Gaza, killing 1300 civilians in three weeks – which otherwise did not make any significant change in the situation. Netanyahu counts on people failing to remember that just yesterday morning the media reported on people in the communities of the South heaving a sigh of relief at the complete cessation of missiles from Gaza."
Re. Professor Ilan Pappe : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Papp%C3%A9 & also a historic but relevant piece : http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/ilan-papp-the-deadly-closing-of-the-israeli-mind-1992471.html .
Finally, "Likening Palestinians to Blades of Grass", by Elizabeth Murray :
"The relegation of Palestinians to a less-than-human status by Israel and the United States – especially the inhabitants of Gaza who are perpetually locked into an open-air prison and subject to an Israeli blockade – was noted by MIT professor Noam Chomsky after a visit to Gaza to attend an academic conference. In comments broadcast by “Democracy Now!” on Nov. 14 [see below], Chomsky remarked :
“It’s kind of amazing … and inspiring to see people managing somehow to survive … as essentially caged animals subject to constant, random, sadistic punishment – only to humiliate them – no pretext. They [the Palestinians] would like to have dignified lives, but the standard Israeli position is that they shouldn’t raise their heads.”
fiat lux ...
From the truth-out piece: "After the latest attacks, the State Department’s statement justified Israel’s bombardment of Gaza as Israel’s “right to defend itself.... nowhere was there mention of the Palestinians’ right to defend themselves from various attacks by Israel. Apparently only one side is granted that privilege, according to the U.S. statement."
And, "Instead of a serious effort to reach a peace acceptable to both sides, Israel seems to prefer a state of endless conflict with the Palestinians. After all, the prospect of peace might require the Israeli government to treat their neighbors as equals and withdraw from territory occupied since 1967."
From the Pappe article in The Independent: "The Palestinians are asked to give up their struggle for self-determination and liberation in return for the establishment of three small Bantustans under tight Israeli control and supervision." And, "The official thinking in Israel, therefore, is that Hamas is a formidable obstacle for the imposition of such a peace. And thus the declared strategy is straightforward: starving and strangulating into submission the 1.5 million Palestinians living in the densest space in the world."
The Gaza Strip is the 6th most densely populated spot on earth, today, according to infoplease:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934666.html
Here is an article from Amnesty International that outlines the poverty and suffering in the Gaza Strip:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/suffocating-gaza-israeli-blockades-effects-palestinians-2010-06-01
Thanks, once again, for all the great links. Peace.
"Peace" - yes, and 'as long as I breath, I hope'. A sincere thank you 'bw' for the excellent extraction of exceptional excerpts above and sadly, these perspectives are omitted from broadcast on anglophone MSM, whose take on events in Gaza is as unsurprising as it is disappointing.
Thank you for your very interesting links. The 5 places in the world with higher population density than Gaza are all de facto island, city states. Your 'AI' link was also very revealing and do you remember 'Bantustans' ?! Finally, I append :
Peace ; Pax ; Shalom ; Salam ; Shaanti ~*~
dum spiro, spero ...
Silber's article is very powerful. He writes, "Gaza is a concentration camp. It is not like a concentration camp. It is not a metaphorical or figurative concentration camp. It is a concentration camp. Our culture, our political leaders, and the cacophony of voices in the media have all agreed that this truth must never be spoken."
Time to start focusing on the plight of the Palestinian people, and realizing that doing so does nothing to degrade the plight of any other group of people. It is merely focusing on the suffering of a particular group of 1.7 million people smushed into 140 square miles with few rights and even fewer resources.
As Jill Stein said : "United States policy regarding Israel and Palestine must be revised to make international law, peace and human rights for all people, no matter their religion or nationality, the central priorities. While the U.S. government sometimes voices support for this principle in name, in practice U.S policy towards Palestine and Israel has violated this principle more often than not." from :
pax, amor et lux ...
Jill Stein makes far too much sense. She is exactly right about this issue. We need to be concerned about the rights of all people all over the globe.
We are either for 'Universal Human Rights' or we are not as willingness to make any exceptions makes an utter mockery and hypocrisy of the whole concept.
"As Israeli peace activist Uri Avnery says, “The real remedy is peace. Peace with the Palestinian people.” Avnery recognizes that the rocket attacks from Hamas had become intolerable. But he notes that Hamas has already agreed to peace if there’s a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders that is approved in a Palestinian referendum. But Israel and the U.S. Congress don’t seem to want to give peace a chance. They vote time after time for war."
e tenebris lux ...
"We are either for 'Universal Human Rights' or we are not as willingness to make any exceptions makes an utter mockery and hypocrisy of the whole concept."
I thought I'd repeat that because it pretty much sums up the entire matter.
That Rothschild article was kind of hard to read, to tell you the truth. Very disheartening. But, thanks.
Matthew Rothschild's article was indeed somewhat disheartening, however some small light does need to be shed on the mater nevertheless. Perhaps no less dishearteningly, I append the following article by a very respected journalist who has long been based in the ME and whose perspective has real value :
"We are all Israeli's now : its brutality, unlike Syria's, is fought in the name of the West's war on terror", by Robert Fisk :
"Who set the precedent when it comes to "collateral damage"? The West did. Now the Israelis reel out the same tired excuses and platitudes to justify their violence"!
Thanx for your solidarity for Gazans btw as they want a bw too.
fiat justitia ruat caelum ...
The article you sent me below, (sorry, we ran out of room), "We are all Israeli's now : its brutality, unlike Syria's, is fought in the name of the West's war on terror", by Robert Fisk, underscores why the international community is blind to what goes on in Gaza. Fisk writes, "Israel claims to hold the same values as the supposedly moral West. It says that it is fighting “terrorism” in our name as well as its own. It says it is fighting like us. It is playing by our Western rules. We are all Israelis now; that is what we are meant to say."
This is the result of truly lazy intellectualism and is not much short of brainwashing, especially since the war on terror is a myth in the first place.
The 'War On Terror' is such a specious canard as to to be well outside the credulity of most right thinking people who do not suffer from "lazy intellectualism". Thanx for your comment, with which I concur wholeheartedly. Finally I append :
"To portray Israel as some kind of victim with every right to 'defend itself' from attack from 'outside its borders' is a grotesque inversion of reality."
veritas vos liberabit ...
Running out of space is annoying but yes, of course, the Guardian article you posted below is correct: "It's Palestinians Who Have the Right to Defend Themselves."
And, as the article states: "So Gazans are an occupied people and have the right to resist, including by armed force (though not to target civilians), while Israel is an occupying power that has an obligation to withdraw – not a right to defend territories it controls or is colonising by dint of military power."
The unfortunate fact that most Americans seem to know so little about this situation is perhaps well illustrated by this article :
Thanx for your comment and as an aside, that "Running out of space is annoying", is something I fear Gazans can all too readily agree with :-/
verum ex absurdo ...
Israeli peace activist Miko Peled talks about his new book “The General’s Son: Journey of an Israeli in Palestine”, Oct. 1, 2012:
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2012/10/14/truth-about-israel-by-jew-miko-peled/
Thanx for this very strong video link & further : http://mikopeled.com/ + ...
"I Think it Has Got to do With Iran, Actually.” 'UK's Chief Rabbi Caught Off Guard With Comment on Israel's Attack On Gaza', by Alan Hart : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33053.htm .
"Another Ceasefire, Another Assassination", by Mark Perry : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33057.htm .
fiat pax ...
Good point on Iran, but also important to mention that Iran is just another step towards either world domination or nuclear confrontation with Russia and China.
The "point" was actually from the UK's Chief Rabbi but I get your point whilst simultaneously hoping that you are wrong. Further in this matter, I append herewith :
fiat lux ...
I simultaneously hope that I am wrong as well.
We concur in hope that you are wrong but I still append :
cave - bellum se ipsum alet ...
It appears that Stern is not alone in his opinion:
"Druze-Israel poet and commentator Salman Masalha writes today in Ha'aretz that the attack against Gaza is part of a well-defined plan to attack Iran. Cautioning against viewing the operation as an election ploy, Masalha argues, "Instead, one could view the attack on Gaza as part of a new plan, a master plan that turns its eyes east to Iran's nuclear program."
http://larouchepac.com/node/24526
Nothing else to do at this juncture but hope and pray for peace and that we avert any further slides towards a much bigger conflagration.
oremus ...
As upsetting as the information in these two links are...the rare candor of the speakers is refreshing, in that I think that the whole world, including the people involved in military and intel (excluding the very top people, who are maniacs), are just sick of war. That's a good sign...so let's keep our chin up!
This ties in, I think, with the statement of Chief Rabbi's thoughts...
The Invasion of Gaza: Part of a Broader US-NATO-Israel Military Agenda.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-invasion-of-gaza-part-of-a-broader-us-nato-israel-military-agenda-towards-a-scenario-of-military-escalation/5311957
Prof. Michel Chossudovsky's insights have proven prescient many times in the past, so thanx for your link, further to which I append :
fiat lux ...
This one was a re-watch for me, but well worth it! And others may see it as well. There is no mistaking his words and hubris here. So thank you.
What can be said about Netanyahu? He's a madman! I just hate how people call him 'Bibi'...as though he's cherished and liked enough to have a global 'pet name' (shudder).
Could this be true? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWxF7j_jFhI
If so, it is probably as a result of it being very obvious to the world that it was a one sided massacre. I would like to think that OWS and other social media helped to bring that to fruition.
We all must hope that The Ceasefire takes hold and is sustained and yes, Global Public Opinion IS a huge factor - hopefully !! Re. Netanyahu, his steady march towards the extreme edges of the paranoid nationalism of the Israeli far right is more pronounced now than ever before. Many Israelis are more fearful of what is happening to their country from within than anything else and there is no way that current events are UNconnected to January's Israeli General Election. Romney and Netanyahu are ex colleagues btw, and the latter was hoping for the former's win in the POTUS race this time last month.
fiat pax ...
"In Israel - 20,000 Gazans Are Responsible for Their Own Deaths. I've Never Been So Ashamed"! by Gideon Levy:
"Both the lower and higher Israel have lost their human image. This is reason enough to be ashamed of being Israeli."
Further "My Palestinian Poem that 'The New Yorker' Wouldn’t Publish"! by Fady Joudah [06-06-21]
https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/my-palestinian-poem-that-the-new-yorker-wouldnt-publish/ &...
https://www.democracynow.org/2023/10/16/raz_segal_textbook_case_of_genocide [10m video] +
NB https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/israel-palestine-gaza-war-reject-censorship-grief-must
From which, please note "The global powers divide lives into those who can be mourned and those who cannot - those whose mourning justifies the killing machine and those whose mourning undermines it"!!!
Finally, if you want some dark insights into just where Extreme RW, nationalist, supremacist, race-based ideologies can take people; then please consider this article & that this, is a few short steps away from a Clone Army!
as - "The militarization of Israeli society has taken on new dimensions with the harvesting of sperm from the bodies of deceased soldiers for 'posthumous reproduction.' In this way, soldiers become the colonial embodiment of Israeli national masculinity." Finally "finally" - if you don't read, watch or listen to anything else here, then please watch this 4m 36s video of the Palestinian present position, predicament & plight:
et veritas vos liberabit ...
"Why do America’s liberal hawks attack Russia while giving Israel a free pass?" By Peter Beinart
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/29/why-do-americas-liberal-hawks-attack-russia-while-giving-israel-a-free-pass
"Never have these ideological contortions been as conspicuous as during Israel’s war in Gaza. Liberal hawks often profess their commitment to human rights. Yet they haven’t called for ending a war that is killing more people per day than any conflict this century. They haven’t done so because, like their allies in the Biden administration, they are wedded to a narrative about the moral superiority of American power that this war defies."
"Israel-Palestine is part of a darker history about the era of American primacy that liberal hawks celebrate and wish to preserve. For decades, the United States has used its unparalleled military might and diplomatic muscle to ensure that Israel can deny millions of Palestinians the most basic rights – citizenship, due process, freedom of movement, the right to vote – with impunity."
This is a killer article and the fact that it is published in a rather mainstream newspaper means the tide really is turning, imo anyway.
So "... to depict Israel’s war as another battle between a democratic, rules-abiding west ... and a lawless, illiberal axis that runs from Beijing to Moscow to Tehran to Gaza City, the liberal hawks must ignore elementary facts about the Jewish state." --- FROM YOUR GREAT LINKED ARTICLE, WHICH IS LONG AND WELL ARGUED AND ENDS WITH ...
THIS "If a new generation of Americans eventually turns US policy against apartheid in Israel-Palestine, as their forebears turned US policy against apartheid in South Africa - it won’t be because they extolled American power.It will be because they confronted the “profound injustices”,committed under America’s auspices, which liberal hawks so often obfuscate or ignore." ALSO FURTHER NOTE THIS 12m VIDEO:
"How Netanyahu's War could DESTROY Israel"! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61MjES_3iNE ... by David Hearst - the Jewish editor-in-chief of 'Middle East Eye' - & FINALLY
THIS: https://mondoweiss.net/2024/01/the-failure-of-zionism-and-the-triumph-of-the-israel-lobby/ by Philip Weiss - FROM WHICH ...
THIS: "This is a great tragedy. For Palestinians of course. For the world and for Jews, too. Israeli society is today in a desperate & dangerous place, because it has painted itself into a racist supremacist corner, destroying repeated offers of partition, with American Jews preventing any criticism of its actions."
respice; adspice; prospice ...
"Ireland, Spain demand EU review of Israel’s human rights conduct in Gaza"
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/14/ireland-spain-demand-eu-review-of-israels-human-rights-conduct-in-gaza
Respect for the few world leaders standing up to Israel.
Even the warmongers think Israel needs to stop.
"Pressure grows on Israel from US to ease Gaza assault as Blinken arrives in Israel"
https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0108/1425272-israel-gaza/
Re. deep history and context of Gaza & much else ... closely consider this historical document:
https://informationclearinghouse.blog/2024/01/13/the-zionist-plan-for-the-middle-east/12/
by Oded Yinon - translated and edited by Israel Shahak (February,1982) and meanwhile:
John Mearsheimer re. Gaza: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc0mws9NT-0 [24mins]
Now also consider: "Israelism" https://vimeo.com/899485216 [1hr 24m & ESSENTIAL!!!]
Further note: https://twitter.com/HarrisonHSmith/status/1746244642432045195 [11m 27s]
"Genocide in Gaza is nothing but an American genocide.Israel is nothing but a western colonialist project.A violent American intrusion into the region.Zionism is rebranding of western imperialism"! Shahid Bolsen pulls no punches!! Please: Watch; Listen and try to Digest the three videos above!
and - "CNN RUNS GAZA COVERAGE PAST JERUSALEM TEAM OPERATING UNDER SHADOW OF IDF CENSOR"! ----- https://theintercept.com/2024/01/04/cnn-israel-gaza-idf-reporting/ by Daniel Boguslaw
Further NB: https://theintercept.com/2023/12/24/feminism-sexual-violence-hamas-israel/ by Judith Levine
"The right manufactured it, the media and feminists bought in — and Israel is exploiting the outcry."
Finally, factually and fundamentally, this:
et veritas vos liberabit!
Aaron Bushnell dies after self-immolating while shouting "Free Palestine" in front of the Israeli embassy in Washington D.C.
Evidently, he didn't want to be part of the genocide of the Palestinian people. R.I.P. Aaron.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/25/man-set-himself-on-fire-israel-embassy
[Deleted]
Nut'n yahoo has to go!
I concur and would also commend this link to you :
multum in parvo ...
Agreed, and AIPAC has to also go away for good.
~Odin~
Very sad and even shocking how this Chomsky article and these comments are languishing down here. I can't help thinking how many have even read or engaged with this part of this thread. When voices for Peace are silenced and suppressed, we should all worry.
Thanks, A4C. It's important to tell the truth as the MSM apparently won't. The down voting is merely a symptom of how frightful the truth is for some people.
When a relevant article by Noam Chomsky on the matter of Gaza is being suppressed & there really is no other word for it (it was -5 and your comment -1, when I read it!) - well, like I said, we should all worry. I am rather shocked by much of this thread and there is a dishonest attempt to spin this story and suppress information. Thank you for caring about 'the truth'. I appreciate it.
Glad you are here. It's crazy isn't it? If OWS can't get this right, then where do these people really stand in the world? What help can they get on this good earth? What has happened to our humanity?
It is a craziness that is borne from many, many years of spin and propaganda but this is an open forum so I don't really hold these matters as OWS' responsibility.
What IS shocking to me though, is that so few people here will acknowledge that the Palestinians may even have some kind of case. This only shows just how deep the propaganda and spin goes and the attempts at information suppression are typified by this phrase - 'I naturally assume those who refuse to consider such facts are either anti-Semitic or simple fools.' - to which I was forced to comment earlier on this thread.
The Palestinians are some of the most forgotten people on 'this good earth'. Their wretched predicament is ignored until such time as they have the temerity to make a noise, when the standard reaction is to start screaming 'terrorist'! The English Crown considered The Boston Tea Party and George Washington as 'terrorists' yet we regard these patriots as 'freedom fighters' now, don't we?
Our 'humanity' is eroded if we are silent in the face of horrors like that which is being visited upon Gaza once again. Does anyone even recall 2008's 'Operation Cast Lead' now? What were we encouraged to think when Saddam Hussein was doing this to Iraqis? What are we thinking when Assad does this to innocent Syrians? What's the difference? I am really tired of the complicity and hypocrisy and I 'ache for change'.
Thank you for your courage and comments on this thread in particular and the forum in general.
Beautifully said. Thank you.
Solidarity to Gazans! And thank you. I'm sure I speak for many when I say I appreciate you.
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"The Forgotten Palestinians" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCQx47kN6tI [48:42m] was actually the reference when I wrote earlier to beautifulworld and it is NOT 'bullshit' because the Palestinians are now in a worse situation than ever before.
Just look at some maps! Their cause animates people across the world and not just in the Arab world. Israel is assassinating the Palestinian leadership and many total innocents are dying. It's an unwinable war. It's a real fight between mice and elephants and the elephants are the aggressors and the mice resist because the mice have been there for millennia - because it's their homeland, despite what the elephants believe.
If you have any confusion why the focus is on Israel then take a look at the title of this post where you have chosen to come and hector people who you regard 'are either anti-Semitic or simple fools.' I do not appreciate bullying language like that and its purpose is to intimidate and silence people isn't it?
My focus is exactly where it should be, here, on you, on this thread, because the post heading simply demands it! You don't have to answer of course, but have you opened a single of shadz66's links here?
Where is your 'focus'?
Thanks, A4C. People lose credibility with me who claim to care about human rights and fairness while happily setting those very rights aside for Palestinians. Shadz's links are awesome and should be viewed by all.
Amnesty International also does an excellent job of outing the plight of the Palestinians:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2012
Amnesty's report on Gaza is a very good link. Thank you once again. There is talk of a ceasefire soon and Hilary Clinton is going there as we speak. We hope and pray for peace and justice and mercy on innocent people and children everywhere and silence in the face of horror is complicity. Today's news post by OWS was very good. Solidarity to people in Gaza this Thanksgiving!
That news post has been taken down as far as I can see. Please let me know if you still see it there. Courage and solidarity for what is right!
Gaza related news post taken down from the forum it seems when I checked the news tab but it was here just earlier. However I have the link here though - http://occupywallst.org/article/occupy-wall-street-not-palestine-ows-says-no-wa/#comments as I was about to e-mail it to a friend. This is all more than a little strange and suspicious.
Ran out of reply room. Re: the Gaza Youth Manifesto below. 'A4C', have you considered making this into a main forum post? It captures, better than anything else, the hearts and minds of the young living in Gaza, and needs as much exposure as possible.
Awesome! I just copied the whole thing to a word document. That's a keeper. Much appreciation for your forethought.
Here's the first part of today's withdrawn news post which I will lose if I refresh the page or log out which I have to soon. Solidarity!
Since the latest round of violence erupted in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, many of us in OWS (who have always felt inspired by those so-called "Arab Spring" demonstrators who occupied their public squares in a cry for democracy) have felt saddened and torn. We completely condemn the Hamas rocket attacks on civilians, but we also know that retaliation will only beget further violence. We hold diverse opinions on the ongoing situation there, but from the bottom of our hearts, we feel the utmost solidarity and compassion for those -- on all sides of the conflict -- who are suffering from terror and wish peace to prevail. It is possible to support those in Israel [link via Occupy Judaism] without supporting the injustices perpetuated by the Israeli state; we stand united against antisemitism and islamophobia alike, and we condemn violence from all sides.
Some Occupiers have been taking part in a recent round of solidarity demonstrations with the people of Gaza. Meanwhile, in Israel, supporters of the #J14 social justice movement and many others have also demonstrated against the military actions of Israel. OWS has always been a nonviolent movement, and as such, we oppose all militarism as robbing the 99% (of money and lives) and strengthening the stranglehold of the 1%. It is clear that these latest acts of aggression, like wars orchestrated by the U.S. government at home and abroad, are just another way of boosting election chances by power-hungry politicians.
This latest Israeli assault takes place among a complex history. Palestinians, like all people, deserve self-determination, the right to return to their homes, to not have their communities demolished, and not forced to live in open-air prisons under military blockade or threat of invasion. But war will not solve this crisis, nor any other; it will only increase extremism, resentment, poverty, and the underlying systemic problems that perpetuate more violence. Collectively punishing an entire population for the actions of a few is not justice. Just as our own government here in U.S. spends trillions on "military defense" while education, infrastructure, and social programs crumble, neither Hamas nor Netanyahu government truly care for the poor and oppressed within their own lands, aside from meager social programs, and would rather spend millions on rockets than create real social justice.
Make no mistake: While we must stand against violence in all forms, this "war" is a one-sided conflict between a military which is one of the largest and best-equipped in the world, the Israeli Defense Forces, who enjoy widespread support from the U.S. military industrial complex, and a people whose lands have been steadily dwindling for decades. Civilian causalities in Gaza, a tiny strip of land that is densely populated and has been under blockade for some time (meaning that no one can leave, there is no where to hide, and medical supplies and other goods cannot enter) far outweigh those in Israel, with its advanced missile defense system. As a result, despair and desire for revenge are on the rise, and politicians on all sides seek to exploit this.
While the 1% of the United States supports and profits from these latest acts of aggression, and U.S. money and arms are used to conduct it, there are those of us within these colonized borders who refuse to let this happen in our name, with our tax dollars. As if it were not enough to merely denounce militarism and hatred for its own sake, to those who would say this is not an economic issue, or that this does not apply to income inequality: How much poverty is one jet, one bomb worth? There can be no social justice or economic equality in a world ruined by war or controlled by colonialism.
The United States, itself built on broken treaties and stolen land, is still the greatest exporter of arms and builder of the largest (and most racially disparate) prison system ever known on Earth. For those incarcerated and targeted by police brutality, for those who are forced to live on impoverished reservations, and those shackled by debt here in the U.S., to the victims of terror in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, and across the world, we must continue to build a mass people's movement across divisions of race, religion, and all other borders to oppose tyranny, colonialism, and war in all forms. We all deserve to live in safety in our homes and enjoy the same rights, regardless of religion or race, whether we are immigrants or not. Our leaders would distract us by filling our minds with zealous hatred and send us to kill and die. We say no more.
The best way to end war is to start by overthrowing our regimes at home. Those with power wish to keep it; and war is profitable, politically and economically, for them. As long as the logic of capitalism declares "pursue profit at all cost," regardless of the toll it takes on humanity, and as long as power, land, and resources are concentrated in the hands of the 1%, wars will continue as the rest of us are forced to compete over what is left, what for thousands of generations was shared by all. The capitalist imperative that allows multinational banks to profit by evicting innocent families from their homes is the same logic that justifies taking more and more land in Palestine and the world over. The bombs over Gaza and Tel Aviv are merely the most dramatic example of a global system that seeks to rob us all of our right to live peacefully. Protesting wars abroad is not enough; we must fight the war at home.
This is why the best way to end war is to end capitalism and domination. We must make right the wrongs of the past by building a world in which all have access to the basic means of survival and safety, so that not one more person will die in a fruitless war. Our struggles should not be against one another, but against those who would rob us of our land and send us to fight and die for their own gain.
Our struggle for peace, justice, and reconciliation here in United States is the same struggle of all peoples everywhere. Those who call for and profit from war, regardless of their stated claims, are the enemies of us all. This is why we say Occupy Wall Street, not Palestine! No to war! No to racism everywhere! No to the war machine fueled by greed!
The following statement, issued by a group calling itself "Gaza Youth Breaks Out" has gone viral on the internet, and we reproduce it here to show our solidarity with the innocent civilians of Gaza and Israel, and because we feel affinity with its message.
Thanks, got the first part too. Great!
The link, when I click on it, is blank. Very disheartening. Thanks for letting me know. Maybe it will be back up.
I'm getting the same thing here but I have the page open in another tab so will copy what I can here now:
GAZAN YOUTH’S MANIFESTO FOR CHANGE
Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel. Fuck Fatah. Fuck UN. Fuck UNWRA. Fuck USA! We, the youth in Gaza, are so fed up with Israel, Hamas, the occupation, the violations of human rights and the indifference of the international community! We want to scream and break this wall of silence, injustice and indifference like the Israeli F16’s breaking the wall of sound; scream with all the power in our souls in order to release this immense frustration that consumes us because of this fucking situation we live in; we are like lice between two nails living a nightmare inside a nightmare, no room for hope, no space for freedom. We are sick of being caught in this political struggle; sick of cold dark nights with airplanes circling above our homes; sick of innocent farmers getting shot in the buffer zone because they are taking care of their lands; sick of bearded guys walking around with their guns abusing their power, beating up or incarcerating young people demonstrating for what they believe in; sick of the wall of shame that separates us from the rest of our country and keeps us imprisoned in a stamp-sized piece of land; sick of being portrayed as terrorists, homemade fanatics with explosives in our pockets and evil in our eyes; sick of the indifference we meet from the international community, the so-called experts in expressing concerns and drafting resolutions but cowards in enforcing anything they agree on; we are sick and tired of living a shitty life, being kept in jail by Israel, beaten up by Hamas and completely ignored by the rest of the world.
There is a revolution growing inside of us, an immense dissatisfaction and frustration that will destroy us unless we find a way of canalizing this energy into something that can challenge the status quo and give us some kind of hope. The final drop that made our hearts tremble with frustration and hopelessness happened 30rd November, when Hamas’ officers came to Sharek Youth Forum, a leading youth organization (www.sharek.ps) with their guns, lies and aggressiveness, throwing everybody outside, incarcerating some and prohibiting Sharek from working. A few days later, demonstrators in front of Sharek were beaten and some incarcerated. We are really living a nightmare inside a nightmare. It is difficult to find words for the pressure we are under. We barely survived the Operation Cast Lead, where Israel very effectively bombed the shit out of us, destroying thousands of homes and even more lives and dreams. They did not get rid of Hamas, as they intended, but they sure scared us forever and distributed post traumatic stress syndrome to everybody, as there was nowhere to run.
We are youth with heavy hearts. We carry in ourselves a heaviness so immense that it makes it difficult for us to enjoy the sunset. How to enjoy it when dark clouds paint the horizon and bleak memories run past our eyes every time we close them? We smile in order to hide the pain. We laugh in order to forget the war. We hope in order not to commit suicide here and now. During the war we got the unmistakable feeling that Israel wanted to erase us from the face of the earth. During the last years Hamas has been doing all they can to control our thoughts, behaviour and aspirations. We are a generation of young people used to face missiles, carrying what seems to be a impossible mission of living a normal and healthy life, and only barely tolerated by a massive organization that has spread in our society as a malicious cancer disease, causing mayhem and effectively killing all living cells, thoughts and dreams on its way as well as paralyzing people with its terror regime. Not to mention the prison we live in, a prison sustained by a so-called democratic country.
History is repeating itself in its most cruel way and nobody seems to care. We are scared. Here in Gaza we are scared of being incarcerated, interrogated, hit, tortured, bombed, killed. We are afraid of living, because every single step we take has to be considered and well-thought, there are limitations everywhere, we cannot move as we want, say what we want, do what we want, sometimes we even cant think what we want because the occupation has occupied our brains and hearts so terrible that it hurts and it makes us want to shed endless tears of frustration and rage!
We do not want to hate, we do not want to feel all of this feelings, we do not want to be victims anymore. ENOUGH! Enough pain, enough tears, enough suffering, enough control, limitations, unjust justifications, terror, torture, excuses, bombings, sleepless nights, dead civilians, black memories, bleak future, heart aching present, disturbed politics, fanatic politicians, religious bullshit, enough incarceration! WE SAY STOP! This is not the future we want!
We want three things. We want to be free. We want to be able to live a normal life. We want peace. Is that too much to ask? We are a peace movement consistent of young people in Gaza and supporters elsewhere that will not rest until the truth about Gaza is known by everybody in this whole world and in such a degree that no more silent consent or loud indifference will be accepted.
This is the Gazan youth’s manifesto for change!
We will start by destroying the occupation that surrounds ourselves, we will break free from this mental incarceration and regain our dignity and self respect. We will carry our heads high even though we will face resistance. We will work day and night in order to change these miserable conditions we are living under. We will build dreams where we meet walls.
We only hope that you – yes, you reading this statement right now! – can support us. In order to find out how, please write on our wall or contact us directly: freegazayouth@hotmail.com
We want to be free, we want to live, we want peace.
FREE GAZA YOUTH!
Pls consider supporting us by taking one or more of the following actions:
1) Promoting our manifesto by sharing it on your profile on Facebook 2) Sending an email to your friends asking them to like our page FB 3) Translating the manifesto to your language and sending it to us (we have it in English, Arabic, Hebrew, French, Portuguese, German, Spanish, Italian, Dutch, Danish) 4) Sending the manifesto to journalists in your country 5) Making organizations in your countries that are concerned with the Palestinian issue and/or youth rights know about our existence 6) Posting links about violation of youth's rights in Gaza on our wall 7) Planning an event in your country about this issue and/or organizing for a skype conference, where we are able to talk with a group of youth, politicians or others outside Gaza 8) Suggesting us ideas for reaching out to a greater number of people
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That which you find obvious may not be so to others and it was 'obvious' that your 'fellow leftists' - 'are either anti-Semitic or simple fools' before wasn't it?
Here's a hopefully useful link - http://www.nationofchange.org/gaza-it-s-occupation-stupid-1353572725 and a Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours as we all 'give thanks' for the ceasefire on this of all days.
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And as I responded - http://occupywallst.org/forum/israel-attacking-gaza-via-land-air-and-sea/#comment-883733 . Work for peace and turn off your MSM!
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The words 'must' and 'fact' trip from you easily as you just try to assert on the basis ignorance and prejudice. You aren't reading my replies or following any links, so I will repeat my comment from below, to which you chose not reply -
I'm sorry to say that you are wrong on so many different levels imo, that I hardly know where to start. How about - "We are forbidden to say this - Gaza is a Concentration Camp", by Arthur Silber : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33077.htm ? & it is taken from this very thread.
As they say, ''terror is as terror does'', so do NOT think for one moment that the latest Israeli violence (I'll bet you have forgotten 2008's 'Operation Cast Lead' already, right?) is anything other than 'Terrifying and Terrorising' to hundreds of thousands of people confined to a ghetto!
Have you any grasp or knowledge of history at all? Do the words 'Warsaw Ghetto' or 'The Haganah' or 'The Irgun' have any meaning for you? If you've no idea what I'm referring to, then please go get a clue.
What you think you know about 'Oslo' may well be utterly wrong but if you are only reading or getting all your information from MSM, then that is really not surprising. The truth about what Arafat did, did not do, should have done and even how he actually died is still to be revealed however anyone who knows about these matters knows the Hamas was seeded and supported in its early days in order to undermine and threaten the PLO by - well, let us just say the usual suspects and the most unlikely sources too. Now we all now know just how that story has ended up, don't we?
Btw, I think that you'll find that it is the 'Israeli government' doing most of the 'spanking' but where is it getting them? Your inclination to shout 'terrorists' and take the side of the more powerful and aggressive party, really leaves so much to be desired.
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'Open your eyes' :)
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We Never Give Up! We Are Occupied! Wherever We Are!
Like much of the rest of the world?
Wonder what would happen to middle east tensions - if fossil fuel were relegated to the UN-necessary/UN-needed resource section.
Wonder what would happen to world wide tensions.
Wonder what would happen if instead of throwing money away around the world - we instead exported green technology for providing power and fuel - for processing bad water into safe to drink and grow crops with to not worry about power for medical facilities ...............................
How can we get people to care about the environment when they don't care about their fellow humans?
Continue as we are to reach out?
Yes, continue to tell the truth, however hard that is sometimes.
Absolutely - or bingo {:-]) - hard truths can feed true growth.
B i n g o - b i n g o - B I N G O and bingo was his name-o.
In Gaza Airstrikes, an Appeal to Netanyahu's Hardliners
Monday, 19 November 2012 13:43 By Phyllis Bennis, YES! Magazine | Op-Ed
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/12840-in-gaza-airstrikes-an-appeal-to-netanyahus-hardliners
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Palestinian Civilians Bear the Brunt of Unrelenting Bombings in US-Backed Attacks on Gaza
Monday, 19 November 2012 12:57 By Amy Goodman, Democracy NOW! | Video
http://truth-out.org/news/item/12838-palestinian-civilians-bear-the-brunt-of-unrelenting-bombings-in-us-backed-attacks-on-gaza
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Elites Will Make Gazans of Us All
Monday, 19 November 2012 09:17 By Chris Hedges, Truthdig | Op-Ed
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/12821-elites-will-make-gazans-of-us-all
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Killing Hope: Why Israel Targets Sports in Gaza
Tuesday, 20 November 2012 09:11 By Dave Zirin, The Nation | News Analysis
http://truth-out.org/news/item/12849-killing-hope-why-israel-targets-sports-in-gaza
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"Mowing the Grass" in Gaza
Thursday, 22 November 2012 11:14 By Paul Jay, The Real News Network | Interview and Video
http://truth-out.org/news/item/12907-mowing-the-grass-in-gaza
Michael Ratner: I don't put human rights on an equal footing when it comes to talking about the oppressed versus the oppressor.
TRANSCRIPT:
PAUL JAY, SENIOR EDITOR, TRNN: Welcome to The Real News Network. I'm Paul Jay in Baltimore. And welcome to this week's version of The Ratner Report with Michael Ratner. He's president emeritus of the Center for Constitutional Rights in New York, chair of the European Center for Constitutional and Human Rights in Berlin. He's also a board member of The Real News Network. Thanks for joining us again, Michael.
MICHAEL RATNER, PRESIDENT EMERITUS, CENTER FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS: It's good to be with you, Paul, but the news doesn't seem to get any better.
JAY: Really? Alright, well kick us off with what [crosstalk] your report.
RATNER: Well, of course, 'cause I know you've been covering quite well on Real News—and covered not so well in The New York Times—is the Israeli attack on Gaza. I don't want to spend a lot of time on it today, but just a minute, just to emphasize again how inhuman and how illegal what Israel is doing to Gaza. They refer to what they're doing in Gaza sometimes as "mowing the grass." In other words, they think that every three or four years, or whatever number of years, that the people in Gaza, who are on occupied territory, who are occupied, get a little bit too big for their britches, and they have to be—mow the grass, kill off the people who are leading any kind of revolt in Gaza. And that's what they appear to be doing now, although again they appear to be doing with a fairly—not fairly—a high cost to civilians.
A couple of days ago there was the bombing of a house in which 11 civilian members of a family were killed. So, again, even despite Israel's claims of pinpoint bombing—and, in fact, in this case they've said they actually meant to bomb that house. They claim there was a militant or something of Hamas in that house. They bombed it. Whether that person was there or not, we don't know. But even if they were, it would be a disproportional bombing to try to kill one person, and thereby kill 11 members of a family.
JAY: Yeah. Michael, what do you make of the argument? The defenders of this Israeli policy, they say, well, yes, civilians are getting killed, but they're targeting, you know, what they would call military targets, whereas the rockets that are coming now from Hamas, although we know, I think, most of the rockets, whatever they—although they weren't very effective, were coming from groups that were not controlled by Hamas. But at any rate, the rockets that are coming, they say, are targeting civilians, and that makes it a war crime, where the Israelis are, even though killing far more civilians, they're supposedly not targeting them.
RATNER: Look it, do I, as a human rights lawyer, like rockets floating over anywhere that—I wouldn't say targeting civilians in the case of Hamas, but not necessarily knowing where they would land? And sure, we have violations of international law on both sides. But when I look at these situations, I compare oppressor to the oppressed, I compare the occupying country to the occupied. The occupied do have a right to fight back. The occupier then uses force that we can't even talk about a comparison to what Hamas and people in Gaza had. They have nothing. I mean, they have—those rockets are—you know, it's not that they're harmless, because they obviously cause a lot of fear. It actually killed three civilians.
But, of course, the Israel toll is much greater. So I don't like to put human rights on an equal footing when it comes to talking about the oppressed versus the oppressor. Yes, we can say they're both violations of the law. But the question is: how do you end it? And the way you end that, of course, is end the occupation, return the land, certainly, that was conquered in 1967, which includes, of course, the occupied territories and the West Bank, as well as Gaza. You have on one of two theories, you either have a two-state solution or you have a one-state solution. But what you don't have is a situation where Israel continues the occupation, continues to gobble up Palestinian land, and then occasionally, when the Palestinians begin a process of fighting back, then essentially rain on them incredible number—incredible amount of death with both bombings, as well as drones, etc.
JAY: Right. Okay. What have you got for us on the other—on your normal beat?
RATNER: Well, you know, Gaza certainly is an important part and Israel and Palestine is an important part of my work, 'cause I think it's the key, of course, to peace in the Middle East, settling that conflict. And the United States—and this is where I'll end on Gaza—the United States has a very nasty role in it. And all those people, I just want to say, who thought that Obama winning his second term would so-called have more courage to take on and try and solve Israel and Gaza and the occupied territories are once again proven wrong. I mean, I thought they were always wrong.
Obama gave the worst single speech ever of a U.S. president to the UN a few years ago, and recently he just came out again with really what you have to say is just pablum, if it weren't so harmful. They're saying Israel has a right to defend itself, and this was a nice irony, that any country that has rockets rained on it has a right to defend itself, referring of course to Hamas or the people in Gaza sending rockets into Israel, but of course not thinking at all about the fact that Obama has been sending drones over Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, and Somalia and saying, well, what about those people's rights to defend themselves against U.S. rockets. So, of course, what's good for Israel in the U.S. eyes is certainly not good for Hamas in U.S. eyes, it's not good for the United States. But, you know, as you know, there's a lot more we can say about Gaza.
Palestinian Civilians Bear the Brunt of Unrelenting Bombings in US-Backed Attacks on Gaza
Monday, 19 November 2012 12:57 By Amy Goodman, Democracy NOW! | Video
http://truth-out.org/news/item/12838-palestinian-civilians-bear-the-brunt-of-unrelenting-bombings-in-us-backed-attacks-on-gaza
Thank you for your important links especially the one I repeat above.
Evil loves darkness. Israel has been bombing Gazan media centers. Wouldn't want the world to view them as woman and baby killers, would they?
http://rt.com/news/gaza-media-center-strike-977/
One step closer to global war.
I’ve believed for a long time at some point, somewhere, some nut job leader will push the red button. I mean what if Saddam Hussein or the Taliban had a nuke ready to go. Would they use it? Would Israel use it if seriously threatened by Arab countries? A some point I think someone will do it.
I've worried about that also. With the attack on Gaza I'm worried that this will be the flashpoint for a confrontation between us and china/russia.
What make me sick American Media Coverage., people getting slaughter in Gaza and the media showing Jewish people are so frighten from few kitchen rocket
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_818090&feature=iv&src_vid=HRA0NKQ0k6E&v=9jOW9EzMiWc
What a load of shit. Who named Iraq? Let me ask you that to start out with.
And because some allegedly PLO guy states there are no palestinians, you run with it like a trained dog, like everything else you are told.
Go look at Gnommys Encyclopedia clip from 1938 that clearly states TransJordan and Palestine.
Calling all presidents, calling all presidents... has anybody seen our president?
He is arranging a ceasefire.
ceasefire, what a joke. it wont stop the muslims from murdering . their goal is the demise of israel, they care nothing for peace. israel is a beacon of enlightenment, and both medical and technical innovation is a sea of muslim barbarianism.
Tell us how you really feel.
It appears Israel has agreed to the ceasefire.
Is that good?
The only thing the "food stamp king" is "arranging" is how he can fuck the American people more
LOL. Tell us how you really feel.
This is how it looks...
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-18/israeli-pinpoint-strike-seen-other-side
This happens ONE time here, and we are going to bomb the shit out of Iran regardless of who did it. They live with this every day, on both sides.
The people here are very isolated from all of this in the world. But with globalization, comes a shrinking world. So how much longer do we stay isolated from the reality we are creating?
massive rally has taken place yesterday over Israeli aggression. about 500 people rallied yesterday afternoon in times square. big thanks to Occupy
Any demonstrations about Gaza rockets shot into Israel ?
"They stole my land,
burnt my olive trees,
destroyed my house,
took my water,
bombed my country,
imprisoned my father,
killed my mother,
took my job,
starved us all,
humiliated us all,
But I am to blame: I shot a rocket back.
So they stole more of my land,
burnt my olive trees,
destroyed my house,
took my water,
bombed my country…."
Italian?, Frenchman?, Spaniard?, North African?,Pole?, Norse?, etc. ? talkin WWII and the Nazi atrocities? or China-man?, Philippine?, any east Asian? and the Japanese WWII atrocities? How about Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge atrocities? Vietnam? Korea? Russia? Mexico? Columbia? USA?
War and greed atrocities know no boundaries.
It wasn't stolen. The people ran after being told not to run. Who told them to leave? Huh? Yeah.............Funny how that shit works out.
Shut up evil one.
The truth shall set you free.
Please leave OWS and this forum.
You leave, troll.
yep, about 50 people ;) http://www.amny.com/urbanite-1.812039/pro-and-anti-israel-demonstrators-both-rally-in-times-square-1.4236334
Israel's old news; time to gear up for Syria, right? Focus, get with the program and focus...
Here is a small glimpse of what life is like for the people of Gaza filmed by a Canadian journalist from inside the area. 34 minutes long.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWJFC98jPrQ
Life is certainly much better in the western world, and yet , they hate us ?
They hate us because the bombs falling on heir heads or the money that bought them came from the U.S. About $3 billion annually.
Whats the rest of the story ..
We are friends with their enemy, Israel, and see us as enemies of Islam.
"We are friends with their enemy, Israel"
Is that why we gave the PLO and mr. a millions ?
The money we gave them was a bribe. Let's not have any wars in the region so we can continue buying our oil cheap.
..anything else..
Please fill the rest in yourself.
I see no good reason to continue fighting.
Didn't think we were fighting.
Not us silly.. The palestines, and Israel.
And if hamas asked Iran to send them food in stead of rockets?
How many decades did it take to stop confederates from lynchings?
Animals accept training easily.
Animals accept training easily. ????????
"anmals accept training easily."
confederate children are trained to believe blacks are inferior
Arab children are trained to believe killing Jews will get them into heaven
German children were trained to believe world war one was the Jew's fault
Golda Mier: "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us."
You know who the real animals are? It's not just Hamas leadership, or Iran, or Hezbollah, it's IDF, and British, and American too. Around the world the wolves are attracted to political power, and for millenia have consistently led men like pawns into battles that rob the world of it's just peace.
Meshal, Nasrallah, Ahmadinejad, Netanyahu, Blair, and Obama are just the latest group. Unlike ancient leaders who physically led their armies, this new group sits comfortably in lavish headquarters behind thick concrete walls while their soldiers brave the heat and cold, the bullets and rockets, the blood and death. Even the civilians, old and young, women and children, are still thrust into the center of it's vortex and die in greater numbers than the soldiers.
If any man is truly for peace, it becomes obvious that lever can't be engaged by lifting the barrel of a gun. Since our leaders continually choose to engage the lever of war, they have become our true enemies. These are the animals that must be fought if our goal is to bring peace.
A very powerful comment jr, and very true.
~Odin~
Wow, I'm speechless.
Well said.
Bingo.
"Animals accept training easily" -- wow, thank you for being honest.
This is really sad, seeing both of you, posters who are respected here, at each other's throats like this.
This truely is a formula for despair!
Damn this Mideast hatred!
Tell me something father of Ben, is Ben in the IDF killing civilians or is even that too risky for your boy?
I am agaist killing period. But what would you do if your neighbor was launching rockets at your home? . WHAT WOULD YOU DO? And how would you actions change if your neighbor's religion told him it was a good deed to kill you?
Bensdad, just ignore the fact that the Palestinians are forced to live in squalor by their oppressors, and the very land that is needed to achieve peace is constantly being settled by the Israelis.
Take away a man's pride, and his ability to provide for his family, and you can bet there will be despair followed by radicalism.
We here at OWS serve as an example, albeit in not as near a desparate way.
~Odin~
Israel has been itching for an excuse to invade for years.
Israel occupied Gaza for years - AND THEN LEFT - because they wanted to
no itching involved
Gaza Strip was allotted to the Arab state under United Nations Partition Plan of 1947, but Gaza Strip was occupied by Egypt after the 1948 war.
Between 1948 and 1967, the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian military administration, being officially under the jurisdiction of the All-Palestine Government until in 1959 in was merged into the United Arab Republic, de facto becoming under direct Egyptian military governorship.
Between 1967 and 1993, the Gaza Strip was under Israeli military administration. In March 1979, Egypt renounced all claims to the Gaza Strip in the Egypt–Israel Peace Treaty.
Since the Israel–Palestine Liberation Organization letters of recognition of 1993, the Gaza Strip came under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority.
and NO ANSWER to my question below
is no one here smart enough to answer this very simple question ?
WHY - EXACTLY would Israel want to invade Gaza ?
A land that they conquered & left voluntarily years ago?
WHY - EXACTLY would Israel want to invade Gaza ?
NO ONE HAS An answer for this ???
As an act of evil, evil, evil collective punishment.
"We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads & water." -- Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Eli Yishai. http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/11/israeli-deputy-prime-minister-says-we-must-blow-gaza-back-to-the-middle-ages-destroying-all-the-infrastructure-including-roads-and-water.html
The question is why wouldn't they want to??? Border dispute with a non-christian country who aligns itself with Israels so called mortal enemy of the day (Iran.....who israel used to sell weapons to only a decade or two ago)...also is a strategic interest to Israel as the Gaza strip would complete Israel's boarder with the Mediterranean - an area that allowed Egypt a place to launch attacks in the middle east from. The Gaza strip also has historical significance to the Jewish people as Jewish settlements in the bible were located in this region.
Oh, and there is apparently ample gas reserves right off the coast of the Gaza strip.....sure Israel wouldn't mind a few resources for its efforts...much like the US.
I wouldn't say Israel "voluntarily" gave up the region - massive international pressure - and if i remember correctly Israel didn't follow through with the evacuation timeline agreement which culminated with a few suicide terrorist bombings from Hamas.
Did i mention a recent BBC poll done showed that Israel is the third most hated country in the world...mainly due to its aggressive nature?
I'm not anti-israel...i'm just anti-aggression and anti "historical amnesia" which seems to be the general ailment with a bunch of people in this country.
Why did the USA go to Iraq? A country that was once supported by the USA.
Why does the USA want to be in Afghanistan? A land where they previously helped overthrow and install a new government.
Why did the USA voluntarily join NATO in bombing Libya? Peace talks had been done successfully before.
They don't do this shit because it's logical. Ulterior motives. Destabilize the entire region. Part of the war agenda.
And I happen to think both Israel and Hamas are wrong in this matter.
Yep.
Genocide...smh...and the msm is eating this up.
Time lines - interesting.
A Timeline of the History of Israel
Excerpt: C. 17th Century BCE
The Patriarchs of the Israelites, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bring the belief in One God to the Promised Land where they settle. Famine forces the Israelites to migrate to Egypt
Documents unearthed in Mesopotamia, dating back to 2000- 1500 BCE, corroborate aspects of their nomadic way of life as described in the Bible. The Book of Genesis relates how Abraham was summoned from Ur of the Chaldeans to Canaan to bring about the formation of a people with belief in the One God. When a famine spread through Canaan, Jacob (Israel), his twelve sons and their families settled in Egypt, where their descendants were reduced to slavery and pressed into forced labor.
Timeline of the name Palestine
Excerpt: The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the entire area between Phoenicia and Egypt was in 5th century BC Ancient Greece.
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Israel screws up again
Israel drops leaflets in Gaza to warn civilians to leave target areas
Not a single leaflet killed anyone!
tragic!
Those BASTARDS - how dare they warn the civilian population of Gaza to get as far away as possible from Hamas rocket launch sites - prior to blowing them-up. The Fiends!!!!
On March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with
Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said:
The Palestinian people do not exist
A provocative headline? It’s more than that. It is the truth. Truth does not change. Truth is truth. If something was true 50 years ago, 40 years ago, 30 years ago, it is still true today.And the truth is that only 30 years ago, there was very little confusion on this issue of Palestine.
You might remember the late Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir making the bold political statement:
“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people.” The statement has been a source of ridicule and derision by Arab propagandists ever since. They love to talk about Golda Meir’s “racism.” They love to suggest she was in historical denial. They love to say her statement is patently false – an intentional lie, a strategic deception. What they don’t like to talk about, however, are the very similar statements made by Yasser Arafat and his inner circle of political leadership years after Meir had told the truth – that there is no distinct Palestinian cultural or national identity.
So, despite the fact that “conventional wisdom” has now proclaimed that there is such a thing as the Palestinian people, I’m going to raise those uncomfortable quotations made by Arafat and his henchmen when their public-relations guard was down.
On March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. : He said:
__”The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.
Muhsein continued “For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”
That’s pretty clear, isn’t it? It’s even more specific than Golda Meir’s statement. It reaffirms what I have written on this subject. And it is hardly the only such statement of its kind. Arafat himself made a very definitive and unequivocal statement along these lines as late as 1993. It demonstrates conclusively that the Palestinian nationhood argument is the real strategic deception – one geared to set up the destruction of Israel.
On the same day Arafat signed the Declaration of Principles on the White House lawn in 1993, Arafat said: “Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel.”
No matter how many people delude themselves that the aspirations for Palestinian statehood are genuine and the key to peace in the Middle East, they are still deceiving themselves. In the history of the world, Palestine has never existed as a nation. The region known as Palestine was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their ancestral homeland. It was never ruled by Arabs as a separate nation.
Why now has it become such a critical priority?
The answer is because of a massive deception campaign and relentless terrorism over 40 years.
Golda Meir was telling the truth. Her statement is validated by the truth of history and by the candid, but not widely circulated, pronouncements of Arafat and his lieutenants.
Israel and the West must not surrender to terrorism by granting the killers just what they want – a public relations triumph and a strategic victory. It’s not too late to say no to terrorism. It’s not too late to say no to another Arab terror state. It’s not too late to tell the truth about Palestine. by Joseph Farah
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"War does not stop until the stronger party chooses to stop" wrote Carl von Clausewitz in his esteemed work "On War." It is very clear to most the Palestinian political entities are no choir boys, but it must be admitted neither is the present Israeli government. What is clear is that Israel is the stronger party in the contention, and therefore war is very much at Israel's choosing.
Right now the State of Israel is run by a lot of Neo-Con Right wingers who choose war as part of their machinations. There are many good Israeli's and Jews throughout the world with good progressive values. In fact many of the liberal movements throughout the world, and much here in the U.S., have been fostered by good Jewish people. Zionism was not meant to be a movement for war, but was originally a movement about Peace. Unfortunately it got hijacked. It is time for leftists for Peace to take the Zionist movement back. (Occupy Tel Aviv?) But that will not happen when one stokes the fires for war by condemning the other side for throwing rockets, even when those rockets fall on oneself. One makes peace by condemning one's own side for throwing rockets and bombs.
Parties are so fast to opt for unilateral military aggression. Is it not time to rmake for some unilateral compassion?
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Dropping bombs on civilian populations is also terrorism plain and simple.
I have no sympathy for governments who do this.
There have got to be better methods of protecting oneself from oversized bottle rockets than agressively bombing an entire population. Obviously, it is about the production of rage (or strategic genocide.)
Yep, I agree. Peace will not come until both sides come to agree to live together. So, who will be the stronger, and be first to make the offer of real peace?
"When they love their children more than they hate us,
this will stop" - G.M.
I'm sure they love their children very much. Let us remember this latest round of tit of tat escalation of violence started when on a military incursion into the Gaza strip an Israeli soldier fatally shot a Palestinian child who was playing outside. And I'm not so sure they really hate us, although we give them plenty of reason to. One only has to look at the respective death statistics to know who's perpetuating the greatest terror. The real question is; when will we learn to love them?
Was this the "child" ?
Bloomberg News Israel Hits Gaza Targets as Air Strike Kills Hamas Leader By Calev Ben-David and Saud Abu Ramadan on November 14, 2012 On Scene: Israeli Air Strike Kills Hamas Chief Israeli jets struck the Gaza Strip today, killing the leader
of Hamas’s military wing
as the army pledged the use of ground troops for the first time
since 2009 if required to end attacks on its citizens.
No, that came later.
why would Israel want to invade Gaza?
You'd have to ask Netanyahu.
So you cannot surmise why this brilliant national leader ( who you may completely disagree with ) would invade a worthless land that his nation left already?
Maybe Netanyahu has some internal politics he wanted to divert attention from. The Israeli elections are coming up soon. Or maybe it was to stop Turkey's President from visiting Gaza and giving the government there some legitimacy. Or maybe the Israeli moderates were about to make a Peace deal with the Palestinians, and he wanted to stop that. Or maybe he is out to annex the Gaza Strip, and is figuring he can make 1.6 million people go away... I can surmise many things, but if you really want to know, you have to ask the man himself. Yes, he may be brilliant (we'll have to let history decide that), but he is definitely also psycho.
some very interesting ideas - except annexing Gaza - is impossible
And that the launchers are among houses and schools, etc with children! Hamas will sacrifice anyone for publicity.
Some argue that Gaza is such a crowded area that they have nowhere else to fire the rockets except the urban centers. Looking at Gaza on Google earth exposes the truth. Over half of the land is not densely populated. They could fire their rockets from open fields if they chose, but instead invite destruction to rain down on the heads of their family and neighbors, then blame Israel for targeting the civilian population.
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Israel was on a far better track under Yitzak Rabin in my opinion. Of course he can hardly be brought back from the dead. So sad.
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Ooops .^.THERE.^. it is !!! ~{;-)
fiat lux ...
Yes, I think it was a disaster when Rabin was shot. What a situation! I think we all have to PRAY about this.
Are you insane? Israel kills out of paranoia all around the world. They have stated that they have the right to do so.
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I read your 12 year old linked report. What has any 'Ayatollah' got to do with this situation now? You can 'naturally assume' anything you like but I resent your attempt to strangle reflection and debate with your simplistic - 'those who refuse to consider such facts are either anti-Semitic or simple fools'. I am neither and your words are specifically designed to bully and intimidate, aren't they?
Your 'simple facts' are very far indeed from being that and I'll wager that your are one of the people who refused to engage with the links and comments at the bottom of this thread and indeed perhaps you are one of those who helped to consign them there. It would appear that you, by your own admission 'do not understand' much, so perhaps reading outside your comfort zone will be of some help to you.
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Only you know what that rant means, especially the bit - 'I have neither patience, tolerance, nor respect for the bullshit I see posted by fools who think either Assad or Ahmadinejad can be considered more reasonable or more credible than international human rights organizations or even Noam Chomsky. I've seen both on this forum.' and others will judge who is being 'paranoid', anxious and hectoring here.
Talking of Chomsky, did you try - "Noam Chomsky ; My Visit to Gaza, the World's Largest Open-Air Prison" : http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/12635-noam-chomsky-my-visit-to-gaza-the-worlds-largest-open-air-prison ?
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You seem to think that because Noam Chomsky is Jewish he can be spared your easy accusations of 'antisemitism' which you are all to quick and willing to apply to others. Your MSM talking points are a little lost on me as no one can threaten 'the existence of the Nation of Israel' as it is a nuclear state. I really do not know what it is possible for you 'to tell' or not tell, but if you're sitting comfortably, try this from the ever excellent Amy Goodman - http://www.nationofchange.org/gaza-it-s-occupation-stupid-1353572725 . Have a good Thanksgiving and happy holidays.
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I'm sorry to say that you are wrong on so many different levels imo, that I hardly know where to start. How about - "We are forbidden to say this - Gaza is a Concentration Camp", by Arthur Silber : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33077.htm ? & It is taken from this very thread.
'Terror is as terror does' as the saying goes, so do NOT think for one moment that the latest Israeli violence (I'll bet you have forgotten 2008's 'Operation Cast Lead' already, right?) is anything other than 'Terrifying and Terrorising' to hundreds of thousands of people confined to a ghetto! Have you any grasp or knowledge of history at all? Do the words 'Warsaw Ghetto' or 'The Haganah' or 'The Irgun' have any meaning for you? If you have no idea what I'm referring to, then please go get a clue.
What you think you know about 'Oslo' may well be utterly wrong but if you are only reading or getting all your information from MSM, then that is really not surprising. The truth about what Arafat did, did not do, should have done and even how he actually died is still to be revealed however anyone who knows about these matters knows the Hamas was seeded and supported in its early days in order to undermine and threaten the PLO by - well, let us just say the usual suspects and the most unlikely sources too and we all now know just how that story ended up, don't we?
Btw, I think that you'll find that it is the 'Israeli government' doing most of the 'spanking' but where is it getting them? Finally, your inclination to shout 'terrorists' and take the side of the more powerful and aggressive party, really leaves so much to be desired.
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Wonder what would happen to middle east tensions - if fossil fuel were relegated to the UN-necessary/UN-needed resource section.
I wonder what would happen if Gaza's Arab allies sent in food in stead of rockets?
Sadly, much of Arab govenment power is promulgated & maintained via the Koran.
Think of the Catholics who burned the Jews in Spain; or the Protestants who burned the witches in MA; or adolph hating the Jews
Yes - what would happen if water ( food ) were poured on the fire instead of ( fuel ) weapons.
I think Israel should invite food convoys to Gaza
or better yet, fly over Gaza and drop food supplies in stead of bombs
An arms blockade should be set in place - where all that is allowed in - is water food medicine. Even if that water food and medicine be supplied by the Israelis only - supplies flown in to Israel from all over and delivered by Israel. Could this be a model for other intervention? Arms blockade and water food and medical supplies provided through a safe intermediary.
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Fuck Hamas.
BDS Israel. That's all they will understand. Shame is too much to ask of them.
Stop bombing Israel. Pretty simple.
http://www.google.com/imgres?num=10&hl=en&tbo=d&biw=998&bih=655&tbm=isch&tbnid=mqEqOWLTzCofYM:&imgrefurl=http://tomclarkblog.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-goal-of-operation.html&docid=oVLN07Aa0DENqM&imgurl=https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A76fdLqCcAAPfJe.jpg:large&w=436&h=324&ei=Iv-qUNGXMInk0gGYtYGoDA&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=282&sig=116472649028665637747&sqi=2&page=1&tbnh=138&tbnw=187&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:72&tx=106&ty=65
You'll have that.
You are a complete fraud. Anything I may say in response to one of your comments is intended for the readers. No need for a lying response from you, but of course you are free to do what you wish.
You wanna fire rockets into Israel?
Expect an ass whippin'.
Israel is making enemies much faster than it can kill them. Not that that stops your counterparts over there. Monsters have a very hard time learning from experience. It seems that once they step away from humanity, they've cast their dice and they no longer have the capability to reconsider things.
Hamas? Monsters? Would seem so - glad you picked up on that.
I know, right? That's like an easy one.
Yes - very easy to see - for anyone to see.
Pfft...bunch of crap. Sell it to someone else. I am not buying that shit.
Yep - stop provoking an armed response. The world would back peace seeking from Palestinians - not so much poking the tiger with a stick.
This is exactly what it boils down to. Provoke and then cry.
Antiwar.com is stating that this latest round is due to Israel shooting and killing two people in Gaza.
There really is no reason for IDF to quit. You are dealing with a group of people that are hiding behind women and children and still firing rockets into Israel.
Its a very complicated mess. I dont think that the state of Arizona would react too well to a foreign body coming in and declaring it now the native americans land, and arizonans are now under their rule.
Its very much a mess. They had to of realized this was going to be how it was after WWII. I guess they decided to say it was worth it. Im not sure I would have made the same decision.
All the uber-straight borders in the middle east show there was absolutely no thought put into any of it, just dice it up and call it whatever.
It's not that complicated
. But, I agree with the uber-straight borders through out the Middle East. and many of which were forced on nomadic peoples or peoples that did not believe in or recognize borders.
Poke the tiger get an arm ripped off - and cry bad tiger bad bad tiger.
What is Mossad's motto? "We wage war by way of deception." Whose interest is served by Hamas's bottle rockets?
We live in the age of the false flag and information warfare.
Bottle rockets? Really? Where does your prejudice stem from?
Strange things happen when a group of foreigners show up and start carving up the land.
Truth.
That said, Fuck Hamas. From the get go they didn't lie about their objectives. They have not altered their objectives. Their charter specifically says they will not cease. Fuck 'em.
Found this interesting, re Hamas;
“Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years. Israel ‘aided Hamas directly – the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),’ said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic [and International] Studies. Israel’s support for Hamas ‘was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,’ said a former senior CIA official.”
http://youtu.be/cehzmAfC6w0
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/11/israel-and-the-u-s-created-hamas-hezbollah-and-other-terrorists-via-blowback.html
You mean they fund people that create just enough damage for Israel to point it's finger, "defend itself", then build on the land that was set aside as a "buffer zone"? NO WAY! That would be like saying that the stolen land beyond the 1976 border is still being expanded upon and refusal to end the land theft is the only reason their is no peace agreement. Or that endless war means the border can continue to be pushed back by Israel and this expansion of land gives Israel a reason to fund it's opposition. I wonder if there is money to be made in realty over there?
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Yes, if you read the whole article, it alludes to that as well.
And in the ouster of Mossedegh in Iran, apparently the UK admin lied to the US about the reasons, and had to wait for a change in admin to get it happening.
It's a grubby world, of corporate theft and political intrigue.
the USA having terrible foreign policy.... sounds about right.
I've heard that before.
While I am at it, I would just like to say, fuck the PLO.
The whole region is a mess. Phukk our dependency on crude oil.
We only import around 10% of it from the Middle East right now, although we have been upping it a bit from Saudi.
This has more to do with an alliance with Israel and power than it does energy, in my opinion.
This goes way back to the toppling of the Ottoman Empire.
The trade route back then - the oil route/center today.
Yup. Do you think Afghanistan is along the same lines?
I have heard talk of rare earths in Afghanistan - it is also another control point for the region.
Plus Afghanistan currently has a 90% share of the global opium market. All under the watchful eyes of coalition forces. The Taliban reduced opium production by 90% just months before we invaded in late 2001.
But, it isn't important that we need the oil. It is important that we control the oil that is needed. Consider how much China uses. It wasn't too long ago that Venezuela made it known that they would rather ship oil to China because they were against US Policy even if there was less profit in it. This made lots of people very angry.
Every day brings a clearer message that fossil fuel has got to - GO.
It is a mess.
PLO and Hamas have been given every opportunity to come to the table. They don't wanna do this. They are telling people that they have no intention and they are demonstrating the same.
"Every opportunity to come to the table" -- what alternate universe do you live in? There's never been any Israeli peace process, it's just an empty phrase designed to get the opposition to stand still long enough to get killed. How stupid does Israel think the rest of the world is?
Where do I need to start? Are you one of those folks that thinks that there are Palestinian "refugees" in South Lebanon? I mean how far back am I going here?
Israel attacking by land sea air
lies are SO easy!
Gaza's Hamas is launching rocket bombs at civilian centers
DO you seriously believe Israel wants to invade Gaza?????????????
Israel wants the oil?
Israel wants the militants?
Israel wants the sand?
Too bad Iran is giving Hamas missles in stead of food
Nobody cares about Israel; we care even less for the Palestinians - they are, after all, a non-existent people. I mean, if anybody should care I would think that might be the President, right? Be he's in Thailand vacationing at the moment and so, he has rather conveniently ducked both Benghazi and Israel. Do you think he cares?
I think he has prove himself to do what he is told. If he is vacationing, its because he was probably told to do so...
Cool. OK so, why would anyone continue to support a Pres who does everything he is told to do? Has this man ever made a decision on anything?
I dont think many support him. I dont think anyone voted for Obama or Romney as much as they they were voting against the other person.
If the people keep allowing their choices to be chosen for them, instead of organically creating them themselves, then we can expect more of the same.
You voted for Obama didn't you... hahahaha. You have no one to blame but yourself then, right?
I didnt vote for Obama. Did you vote for Romney?
When you don't have VQ calling you a republican, now you got Red here calling you a democrat.
party hacks doing their best to contribute to the game of divide and conquer.
Another lose/lose situation. Wonderful.
Half of em think Im leaching off society, the other half thinks I only support big business.
I didnt realize those were my only two options in life haha.
Yea, I liked his anger. I liked his willingness to challenge the corruption of an Obama; four more years of decline and this nation will implode.
Romney was a freak weirdo who followed a "fair game" strategy. Even lying and cheating didn't help him.
Netanyahu picked the wrong horse. He must be panicking. That's unfortunate for the Palestinians.
I could care less about "freaky." I want an American middle class - you cannot have a poor class, they will all starve - if America does not have a middle class.
hahaha you probably even think Romney is a fiscal conservative even though his budget plan added trillions to the debt. .
Every reason you think you liked Romney is probably based on the propaganda pushed by his bullshit campaign. Being pro-war is really the only thing he hasn't flip flopped on.
What a joke.
And I'm going to laugh really hard if you're next approach is calling me an Obama supporter.
haha...and right on que this hack goes with the " bama supporter" line.... Its no wonder most adults have no desire to get involved in this political bullshit.
yeah politics drive me crazy.
You're probably a 'bama supporter, right? Yup, and this is just another day in paradise, right?
You want to know what the middle class is crying about? Pharmaceuticals, medical care, medicare... the loss of market value and investment... more, there is no place to put their retirement savings because the banks pay no interest; we are forced from the market into bonds and while we are simultaneously paying higher taxes, we are enabling low interest government debt, which we know the bomber will push ever higher.
Truthfully, the gig is up. And we know it. Because those crying for more tax dollars have gained the upper hand; you can't have all this free shit if you destroy the middle class. So if you're poor, god help ya, you have no future at all in this country. And 'bama will just exacerbate that problem.
Bombs are flying again in the Middle East and where is your hero-idol? He's in Thailand on vacation...
lol the trolls on this forum constantly pushing the divide and conquer democrat vs republican bullshit.
I think RD might be a supremacist - that or a fan of serial murderers - or perhaps both.
as bugs bunny would say... he's a maroon
That's awful generous.
Oh no... we've already lost; there is nothing to conquer - working and middle class concerns are exactly as I have stated. And what did we get from this administration? Lipservice... that's all anybody has gotten. We said, listen, there's a healthcare problem; they said, hold that thought, and turned the matter over to insurance companies to write the legislation. And then they said, look at us, we've conquered healthcare. Healthcare as it currently exists even under medicare with coordinated secondary insurance is destined to cost many people their homes. While simultaneously their savings are rapidly diminishing. In our opinion this is a completely useless government.
Without the middle class the poor will starve, literally, starve. A businessman might understand these things but Obama and this Congress definitely do not.
lol @ faux arguments.
His anger? The guy is a freakin goofball.
And as far as challenging Obama, apparently you need to get up to speed because he let all big things go by without a mention.
So I guess you fall for this PR/Fluff/reality show nonsense. Wonderful.
No, it's just that I want change. For every month this guy is in office it costs America's middle class; our market is tanking, and there is absolutely no return on deposits, which promotes the sale of government bonds; we are subsidizing national debt while inflation outstrips rate of return; simultaneously we are paying higher taxes.
The middle class has suffered enough as a result of 2008; I want change and I want it NOW.
wrong. we have suffered 30 years. there was a brief up tick from WWII 's close, to late 60s, when middle was OK.
Romney-Bain would not help middle. we need some real change. we'll see what happens, when enough people wake up and support the middle class.
if we had a living wage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage