Forum Post: Is This as Good as It Gets?
Posted 11 years ago on Aug. 16, 2012, 9:17 p.m. EST by hchc
(3297)
from Tampa, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Is this it? Is this as good as it gets? This entire system is fucked, the whole thing is all encompassing and corrupted, and its not going to get better as long as :
"I voted for X" is the main extent to the people's efforts.
Its a joke. And the apathy of the people is really starting to screw up any chance the next generation has for a future of decent food, good schools and an overall happy existence.
Get in front and lead or get the hell out of the way.
I understand your rage. I was living in a nice house, two cars, good job. I was on the path to the middle class. Then boom. No jobs no nothing. I spent a year telling people there was no work, something is wrong with the economy. My family, my wife, all thought I just wasn't looking. They thought I had turned to a lump. A year later, it was all over the news. But the damage started long before 2008. 2008 was just the point that they could no longer hide it from the public. The media and politicians are to blame for the lack of progress as much as any partisan voter. They keep pointing to the gains on Wall Street as proof that not all is lost. This is complete bullshit. Wall Street is now and has been living off the money coming from the FED. At the end of July they handed Wall Street another 257 billion dollars. And now Wall Street is booming. We can all see this isn't fixing the economy, just making numbers for the sake of numbers and filling the very pockets of the people who fucked us. This is why I have been saying, LET IT COLLAPSE. This is the only thing that could force the self diluting dipshits into doing their goddamn jobs. I'm tired of waiting for the tragedy or deliverance. Let it collapse. Let the dollar go bust, I don't give a fuck because I don't have any dollars.
Here! Here!
Fight The Cause - NOT THE SYMPTOM
OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution!)
I heard Howard Dean say the same thing, just let the thing go over the cliff. Because nothing is going to change until then, they are just dragging this shit out as long as they can.
Lets just get it done and over with already.
The heck with the victims. The poor will hurt worst of all. Does that matter?
Sacrifice today for the sakes of later generations. I know this is a foreign concept to you boomers, but try it once in a while :)
I can't sign on to a strategy that includes millions of poor people staring, and possible civil war. That is reckless & irresponsible.
In addition it is lazy, and defeatist. We can improve the system. The people united can never be defeated.
What part of "You cannot reason with bullies" do you not understand?
I agree to some extent but what does that have to do with this discussion.?
Are you confused?
This redirection onto my personal capability to reason or understand is a confession of ignorance on your part. Personal attacks are a poor supplement for knowledge.
I don't mean to personally attack you I just don't see how your "bullies" comment relates.
Is there a website you want to refer to?
I like what I hear from Howard Dean most of the time.
But if it all collapses won't vastly more people by thrown into real suffering. More middle class will be thrown out of work, out of their homes, & into poverty. And the current poor would be in even worse shape. How is that better.?
I mean I hear what you're saying "I don't give a fuck because I don't have any dollars" but we can't strategize based on your poor situation.
I truly hope that things improve for you. But I am not supportive of the plan that says "it has to get worse, before it gets better". If it gets worse millions of people will be worse off than you are now. I can't support that.
No! We must work towards a solution that improves the situation for all Americans.
1st and foremost get money out of politics Move to Amend.
Elect progressives. Vote out anti jobs bill politicians
And who would those "progressives" be?
I don't have every name but there is Bernard Sanders, Letitia James, Jill Stein, Many others. Do you know any progressives.?
Are you for or against progressives.?
That's a good list. I'm defiantly pro-progressive. Just so no one confuses the faux-progressives (i.e. Obama) for the real thing.
Pres Obama is clearly a moderate. Many people bought the campaign rhetoric of 2008 as some kinda major change from the right wing path we've been on for 30 years. I been around (in NYC) almost 50 years so I ain't naive.
I (and some others) were smart enough to know that the whole country has moved right and a progressive revolution is years off. OWS has hastened it. And I am encouraged. But it will be years yet still. And much work. And some mature realizations that it's not likely change can come as quickly as we'd like. Maybe. We'll see.
So since I wasn't fooled by the campaign rhetoric I haven't been disillusioned. He did what I expected. In fact he did a great deal more than I expected especially in the face of the most evil massive 1% plutocrat resistance (thru the republicans) the world has ever seen. They ain't giving up power easily, no one ever does.
Elect progressives, Vote out anti OWS politicians
Not to talk violence, but this is why I was arguing that deliberate acts of violence is sometimes the most compassionate. Where you do think history came from?
You don't mean too - and yet - you do.
Talk violence somewhere else.
"violence.... compassionate"? That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. Sorry I disagree
Good luck in all you good efforts.
Go read the FDIC website about how they handle defaulted banks.
Occupy is not here because of me, no red herrings please.
I referred to your quote. I don't care cause you don't have any dollars"
So if it all collapses what about the millions of people who will starve. Does that matter to you? Or just your dollars?
Collapse is a mistake. "Worse before it gets better" is too damaging to human beings especially the poor.
Why should I read the FDIC bank default process? Are you trying to say something or distract me.?
Stop spreading your fear and go read the FDIC website. Unless spreading fear is your goal. I don't buy into fear mongering, mostly because I am informed.
Why should you educate yourself, so you don't look like a fool trying to discredit me by insult simply because you lack the required information to debate the topic.
I am just against your suggestion to "let it all collapse".
What does the FDIC have to do with your suggestion.
Solidarity
If you read it, you would know. I even gave you the important subject matter to this issue, so it should be easy to find. If you are unwilling to use debate as a means of self education, you will find yourself unable to grow in knowledge and as a participant.
Ok so you're not gonna make any other points.
But you have suggested "I will find myself unable to grow in knowledge and as a participant", unless I read what you tell me to read?
Wow. Well you don't have to offer an argument for "letting it all collapse", 'sok. That's is your choice. I have offered my argument for opposition.
The poor will starve, there will be civil war! So I am against your suggestion. You don't have to read anything to understand my opposition. No distractions from me boss.
Now if you have no arguments to offer against me argument. Then the debate is over.
I hope you take this as an education, a growth in knowledge for your future debate participation.
Solidarity
As someone who claims to support Occupy as you do, you should know that the FDIC is an important part of banks, and bank defaults which have been a large part of the downturn. Are you really trying to justify forceful ignorance on the subject at hand, using me as an excuse to continue your ignorance on the topic you are interjecting yourself in. You are completely opposed to a collapse but you refuse to educate yourself on the processes in place to handle a collapse? And you think you can use personnel attack as the rational for remaining ignorant?
You tow the party line, you insist that society is dependent on the banks, and you purposefully ignore an integral part of the institutions we are protesting against. Again, why do you even bother?
I don't understand your comment.
I haven't said any of that. I don't believe any of that. I am well aware of FDIC, Banks, Default, I don't know what party line you think I tow, but that is unrelated to our discussion.
I am not ignorant, I have not personally attacked you.
I simply said your suggestion to "let it all collapse" is too hurtful to the poor.
You are unable to counter my debate point. So the debate is over.
You lost. 2 comments ago. I've moved on. You should too.
Unless you have a counter point to make. (not a website reference, A POINT)
Thanks for playing.
PEACE, & SOLIDARITY We are not enemies, Be nice.
Actually, I think we are. I think you're not here for your stated purpose. I find nothing you say to be inline with this protest. Simply saying "Occupy" and "Solidarity" do not make it so. You're a fraud.
You think we are what? Enemies?
Do you think I'm a fraud because I don't support your suggestion that "we let it all collapse".
I can't support that idea because it will hurt the poor worst of all. I've been poor. It ain't pretty.
I don't know what "occupy" supports on this issue. But I think for myself. And I know that the people united will never be defeated.
Do you have evidence for this personal attack? Or are you still just trying to distract from your inability to counter my debate point that the poor would suffer too much under your suggestion "let it all collapse"
Exactly. Yet you continue pounding on nearly one third of the population with your partisan comments. But you know this already.
I don't need to rehash our conversation, it's on the thread for everyone to read. If you edit your comments, it will only reinforce what I have said.. Lastly, the comment I am replying to is intended by you to continue engagement as I am a lose thread. I will remain a lose thread. This reply is not an indication that I am backing off of what I stated. You're a fraud and there is little that would convince me otherwise. Keep showing those media skills, it suits you.
Corruption, deception, murder, and misinformation.
I think the kids of today know how fucked-up the world is, but as long as it leaves them alone to txt, tweet, FB, and zombie out to music, they simply don't care.
I'm thinking that most of this particular protest (#ows) is peopled by middle-aged souls who grew up in the sixties and seventies.
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From what I can gather from the many efforts of researchers here (yourself included), the "system" has been subverted and controlled by organised criminal minds probably as far back as the late 1800's. Maybe even earlier.
The birthplace of our modern society was ancient Rome, and corruption and bought politicians were part and parcel of their culture. Didn't make any difference to the outcome. Maybe history is doomed to keep repeating itself? Lab rats learn from their mistakes. Makes us look pretty stupid, yes?
Sure there's lots of youth present at the marches and protests. Where are they now? Can you point to regular contributors here who you think might be representative of the youth of today?
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Actually this is a fallacy perpetuated by intelligentsia through classical study; the birthplace of the America - if we are to label this as "modern society - was Northern Europe and the cultural ancestral ties that bind are far more Druid, or later, Celtic Christian; Romish is but an adopted aesthetic and little more.
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It absolutely does not and you should do your history; if it serves to inform anything at all it's academia's view of self.
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I'm not talking about western culture, I'm talking about American culture - and much of Western culture, due to the breadth of our influence, is today American culture (and in many areas, much to their detriment). The ancestral subliminal core of the American cultural mindset and its ascent is NOT informed in any way whatsoever by the Greeks or Rome. Everything from the framework of government to even our attitude on divorce can be traced to unspecified pagan religions which had evolved into Druidism, itself eventually usurped by both force and influence, but largely by force, by Christianity, as it combined all spirits, both the good and the evil, under the One God.
Greece and Rome are but intellectual aesthetics, what they inform is not culture but character - certainly Washington had his Cato and the Dec has its Aristotle... but these are intellectual philosophical ventures, not cultural drivers.
Casandra is everywhere, she lives in all of us... but are not all eyes now on the Druid scholar?
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Absolutely not - do your history. Brilliant language, though...
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I will read the Roman influence... but I have already made this journey, just as Jefferson himself did... we start at the beginning... what is law, from where does it originate amongst our people, what is the line of descent, what influenced... We are Celts by intentional design, everything is derived independently of Rome. Jefferson by the way employs an artificial aesthetic of intellectual fodder but there is no underlying substance. This applies right down to the words we find in the Preamble of the Dec, which can be decidedly categorized as Lockean-Aristotelian in nature. But a true and complete understanding of his words has defied academia for over three hundred years, it's defied them because they have not read all his writings, they have not studied his mind from the vantage of writer, or examined the progression of logic... what is most interesting about Jefferson is that which speaks so loudly in silence.
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haha... and this is why academia is so short sighted.
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There is no underlying Roman substance, only the elementary illusion of substance. But there is more... there are words contained in the very first sentences that academia has debated and misinterpreted for well over a hundred years now.
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Actually, no it doesn't. It has its roots in the evolution of the human mind. And so does logic.
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I can't comment on this any longer with a degree of accuracy... but I am of the belief that most of American classical study was derived of the clerical tutor and was primarily focused on language for the purpose of history and science. Jefferson felt that ethics could be learned in a closet (his words) and referenced those such as Locke and Stewart for logic. He was familiar with Homer but had a strong disdain for novels and poetry. Even so, he was not counted amongst the mixed bag of 99 (?) total delegates that attended the Constitutional conventions - and discussion there of form of government was very broad, encompassing all, informed in large part by the book compiled by Adams of the various constructs. I don't believe we'll find such works in Jefferson's collections, nor any reference in his writings. There was perhaps one minor reference to Aristotle. Jefferson makes a point though of classical language as a means to inform style but even there I believe most of American written form descends by way of those such as Mather, who had also received a classical education.
Jefferson also realizes this error when he traces the origins of American law; he was trying to arrive at a precise definition and determine why exactly it came into being in the first place. We are not of Greek or Roman ancestry, our cultural mindset was one of opposition; nor are we the descendants of Abraham.
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Yes, but what I have tried to assess is the exact measure of that influence; I believe academia has applied and ascribed a greater emphasis than our history reveals; it has skewed a cultural history in favor of an intellectual history.
To say that the cultural mindset was largely informed by Greece and Rome would be akin to saying the Non-Separatist Dissenter was largely informed by Calvin; it simply isn't true - very little was actually derived or retained of Calvin.
And yet it might be difficult to argue that the Puritan emphasis on reason, practical experience, and the measure of each and every biblical verse in light and accordance with the Laws of Nature in intellectual exegesis was not derived of the Schoolmen. This is reflected generations later in Jefferson's Dec, not as the product of Enlightenment but of Puritan hermeneutics.
The above statement as a deference to natural law lies in direct opposition to that which is typically presented, but the Schoolmen definitely had a presence that informed exegesis - the "Laws of Nature" are referenced repeatedly.
I believe it was you that mentioned the colonial magistrates. The very concept that a body of wisemen should sit in judgement is not derived of Rome but of the Druid, a tribal state rather than a city state; further our courts were not imitation of English courts, nor was Puritan jurisprudence - they were uniquely derived of Puritan creation which viewed the totality of law within a framework of five distinct categories. At the time of Jefferson, of course, Blackstone and others had a presence; this is a decidedly English presence.
I don't believe Roman influence was ever all that subtle; it met at the river of Germanic tribal opposition. This is reflected as late as the early 20th century in immigration law that sought to deny the perceived lesser of Southern European and Italian origin. You're saying we can't escape this influence; I'm saying it was always the American intent, as repeatedly recorded throughout our history, to certainly try. So I think that influence has been highly exaggerated by intelligentsia, and is just so much intellectual fodder.
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haha... there seems no escape.
Nothing infuriated the Puritan cleric more then the suggestion that his intellectual exegesis was philosophically flawed or that his creation of multilayered doctrine, in conjunction with a rising humanism, might more aptly be relabeled in a more derogatory light as dogma. The secularization of educational institutions which began with William and Mary has generated sentiment that favored those dissenters less informed, less philosophical, who repeatedly engaged the Non Separatist, as the center of the economic authority, with thoughts of their utter destruction.
And so, well, enuf's enough and here we are.
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Well Im 32, not sure if that still represents youth or not :)
I'm 49, and I still feel like a late teen myself.
The reality is a bit different, though I still feel like I'm in my prime.
have you looked in the mirror?...just kidding. having not matured myself, i too feel young. fire back, i deserve it. lol
I practice the Taoist life-breathing, do some sun-gazing, meditate about four times a week, rock-climb and abseil about twice a month, and live on a mountain-goat block, so I'm doing lots of cardio just getting around.
You deserve better than you're getting. Go get some of what you need.
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The twinkle was as much for your statement as your lack of using the "R" word.
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Zen this is the most on target thing I've read from you yet. Good show man.
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Really, bots? Not even my MO. I actually gave you an upvote.
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lol, ok. I'll try using the voting system more. It just seems like a waste of time most days. People seem to be voting on the person not the comments.
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So R U leading? Or just gettin ready to get out of the way?
Cause honestly Eeyore you don't really do things to inspire.
Thanks for this post. It's good to see other human beings with a fucking brain. Wake up people. Protesting is just the beginning it's not the end. We have to do more than protest. We need a new vision for our country and this world that's worth fighting for. OsiXs has the best vision that I've seen and the only strategic plan to get us there. Stop camping out and and join a real revolution with a plan and a vision. We need smart people (Scientist and Engineers) to fix this mess. Politicians, lawyers and bankers have failed. I'm not willing to let them screw up the rest of my life and the lives of my off-springs. I'm for getting the smart guys to fix this mess. They actually think and create real things instead of lies and paper money.
“Be Smart!” – FIGHT THE CAUSE – NOT THE SYMPTOM
U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://revolution2.osixs.org )
Non U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.2” at ( http://SaveTheWorldNow.osixs.org )
If you know the world around you is collapsing and you do nothing about it, then who’s really at fault when you stood by and did nothing? We have to stop whining and do something about it. We don’t have to live like this anymore.
I don’t like playing the doomsayer roll. But society as we know it is doomed. A financial collapse of the US is inevitable. It’s too late for political solutions. It doesn’t matter who is president. The people are so divided no reasonable discussion is possible.
I think the collapse will slowly occur over a few years. As things get worse the government will implement stop gap measures to slow things down. But when the US credit rating is downgraded, a few major banks fail, unemployment reaches 25% or so and the government support checks stop or reduced, then a major depression will occur. I expect it’ll be much larger than the 1930’s Great Depression.
At some time during this process is when the masses will stop being apathetic. Political ideologies will become less important. The people will support whoever can provide jobs and security. Only when the masses lose their comfortable, secure, lives they will really get involved. I expect there will some blood in the street at some point.
So, the short answer to your question is, Yes, things will get better. But it will get much, much worse first.
I agree, this thing is so messed up, so screwed that there is no getting out.
I remember at Occupy Tampa one time we were saying that at the very least, we had created a group of people who were proven to work together in an unselfish manner, in case things went totally haywire.
I think we are already in that collapse. The bailouts were temp fixes, and each QE loses some steam. Im guess shortly after the elections we are going to see a run on the markets, and thats where we are going to start to see some massive protests.
Personally, I think when gas hit $12 a gallon or so it will accelerate the financial collapse probably faster than any other single factor. Gasoline is the life blood of America. A lot of people won’t be able to adapt, food prices will sky rocket and a lot of businesses won’t survive. Just my personal theory.
jI'm 46
Justice Party is your voice.
Long shot, but may open a few more eyes, and continue the struggle on a new front.
Good for environment, stop the wars, Rocky Anderson has principals: sought impeachment of bush for Iraq.
Also, recruit radicals to vote now. If you can make a good video or media that goes viral show how easy to register online, at least here, we have mail in voting.
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Your right! If the extent of our efforts is just voting the whole thing is hopeless.
It's a good thing No one on this site has suggested such non sense.
No we are for protesting, agitating for real change real direct democracy. We will use every non violent means at our disposal.
protests
petitions
letter writing
phone calls
social media
voting as well (to keep the most damaging conservatives out of power and to elect progressives who might serve the 99% by laying the legislative ground work for electoral reform and improvements to the lives of the 99%)
That is what we ARE doing. That is what we MUST do. And the people united will never be defeated.
Solidarity
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http://jobcreationplan.blogspot.com/2012/06/responsibility-for-changes-to-society.html
http://jobcreationplan.blogspot.com/2012/07/market-failure-of-economics-profession.html
http://jobcreationplan.blogspot.com/2012/08/lazy.html
Working less = unemployment fixed. It is unfortunate that OWS did not have the confidence to support this idea before, but it is not too late to prevent tragic election results (whatever those would be).
UE would go down but wouldnt peoples paychecks as well?
(No idea why your comment received at least four downvotes)
You weren't really clear what you meant here. In my previous comment I was responding to the idea that the paychecks of people who worked less would go down, and showed how this is completely not a problem if those people already have plenty of money by their own standards.
Full employment leads to higher wages, or a higher share of national income going to labor, so by that measure the paychecks of everyone would go up.
The last thing I can think of that you might have been referring to is the general idea of "how large the pie is". For example, suppose that a company sells consulting services to wealthy people in China. If they work less, we get less money from China and the dollar weakens slightly, making things made in China slightly more expensive. In this case, working less would mean a smaller pie.
But overall it's not a good analogy. Other companies also sell things to rich people in the US, this is what luxury goods are all about. German cars, Italian clothes, French whatever... foreign things are often priced higher. The pie analogy doesn't work very well, but when this money leaves the US economy the "pie" becomes smaller, and the rich people who receive profits from these luxury brands will be less likely to spend their money since they already have so much—which is what contributes to the global economic slowdown.
So, if we work less while other countries are all trying to work as much as possible, on average we stop buying expensive luxury goods while also buying more cheap goods from places like China. Since people would have the option of working and earning more, no one is being forced to buy cheap goods instead of luxury goods; it is completely their choice because they value their free time.
So your question was ambiguous and here are more answers.
(copying a comment from another thread)
It helps to consider "working less" in the context of this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/04/business/sales-of-luxury-goods-are-recovering-strongly.html
“If a designer shoe goes up from $800 to $860, who notices?” said Arnold Aronson, managing director of retail strategies at the consulting firm Kurt Salmon, and the former chairman and chief executive of Saks.
“This group is key because the top 5 percent of income earners accounts for about one-third of spending, and the top 20 percent accounts for close to 60 percent of spending,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody’s Analytics. “That was key to why we suffered such a bad recession — their spending fell very sharply.”
Part of the demand is also driven by the snob factor: at luxury stores, higher prices are often considered a mark of quality.
Most of the 1% work; only 5% of them don't work.
As I have stated many times a large number of us prefer to sit on our lazy asses and bitch.It would be nice if you could just take a breath and have some empathy for us.Thanks for your understanding.
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the entire system is fucked and the majority of the people will vote to keep it in place this november.
Don't pay attention to the people running for office who want immediate troop withdrawals or the woman running for president that actually took the times to protest the banks with the people. Those people can't win they say. You must support the system they say.
The must frustrating part is that a third party candidate can win. The only reason they don't is the trance of "I'd like to vote for him, but he can't win"
It's the result of decades of advertising - people are in the habit of choosing a name brand - the one that is pumped into their ears the longest and the loudest with the most frequent repetitions.
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tv sponsored by corporations that fund the 2 parties... that makes it easier.
If news media and ads on tv covered other candidates as much as the 2 most paid for... it'd be a different story.
Why do the 2 candidates with the most money almost always make it to the final 2?
Political campaigns remind me of corrupt churches like Olsteen... "We want to help you... We want to help you and we need money."