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Forum Post: IS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY BECOMING MORE LIBERAL - in the face of a paradigm shift in demographics

Posted 2 years ago on Jan. 27, 2013, 4:51 p.m. EST by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I was reluctant to put this thread up because as many of you know, I strongly believe that Occupy Wall Street should remain outside of the rotten political system. However the victories we are seeing in the political arena are indeed real, and the trends that have developed seem to portend well for us in the future. So they serve as a needed barometer of our success and the very probable continuation of it. The tide is indeed turning. yoo hoo

This news deserves to be celebrated by all of us, but it should also come with the caveat that we have a long way to go, and we are up against a formidable oponent. And the corrupt elite will do their best to apppease us,..... which may cause divisiveness amongst our ranks....., with as little reform, (easily reversible by slick lobbyists) as possible. In any event 'they' will never agree to the sea change that we need, and that most of us want, until we DEMAND it!!

Only when the corrupt elite are threatened (economically) by an AWAKENED critical mass of people who are out in the streets... will we achieve our goal. (SEE; Montreal protests; SEE Iceland protests; SEE the protests in the early 20th century in Sweden and Norway). And that will only happen when people come to the sober conclusion that enduring discomforts, and even the possibility bodily harm in taking part in direct actions is worth the risk... compared to the alternative.... suffering long term servitude/subordination that our children/grandchildren will also undoubtedly have to tolerate as well. Courage will beget courage, though.

'Arguably', (especially on this forum;-).....I know these demographic dynamics could serve as justification for why Occupy Wall Street should stay the course.... outside the political system.....OR become part of it. This is an on-going debate on this forum, and there are people of integrity....who dearly want to see this struggle succeed... on both sides of this squabble ;-), but we should do our best to see that it does not become a divisivsive debate. It is my firm belief which is akin to OWS's that we should stay outside the rotten political system for all the reasons I have outlined here, that is.... if we want to truly see the SEA CHANGE that most of us here so desparately want. That quantum change inlcludes at... the very least... having people's interests come first and foremost, the health of our planet, and setting us on a path to a new economic system, that is more conducive to both the former.

I have taken the liberty to capitalize key words from an excerpt of a blog by Amanda Werner that appeared in the Huffington Post.

*"Although experiences of subordination vary greatly, dealing with oppressive treatment tends to foster two important values: COMMUNITY and COMPASSION. Of course these are the very characteristics a group must devlop to RESIST and SURVIVE subordination. Community is necessary because the ideal of each individual pulling herself up by her bootstraps does not work as well when your entire group is denied boots in the first place. Compassion naturally flows from this, as subordinated communities are reminded of every day that personall struggle rarely exists in a vacuum." *

In order to see our movement succeed we have to acknowledge certain truths, and one of them is that the subordination that we, the white middle-class are now encountering are injustices that minorities have had to endure for oh so long. Hence there is bound to be some legitimate resentment on their part when we come a calling asking them to join our struggle. Afterall, where were we when it was only them? It is our job though to reach out to these people who have suffered at the hands of their oppressors.... ours too now.... for far longer, and to a much greater degree than we have. We have to conduct this outreach with the profound understanding, and a heart-felt promise that we will not abandon them again. Overcoming a rotten political system that has thrived on creating divisiveness will not be easy, and it will take a sustained effort on our part to build COMMUNITY along the way. In any event, he process of reconciliation should begin now.

There is one demographic group that Ms. Werner failed to mention, in the above excerpt and that group is people of compassion who are not minorities, and in my case: That is older white dudes who simply want to see their children, and grandchild to have the chance to grow up in a better, more just world.



Note; I'll be out for a while, but will be back on line here tonight



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[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Odin, let's just kill the Republican Party - the party of the 1%. Let's just kill it, and its wicked dance of death on the bones and bodies of the oppressed . . . Let's just KILL it.

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 2 years ago

I would be happy if the repubs could throw off the shackles of the NRA/Gun makers control.


[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

I would be happy if they all jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge.

I'm sorry, but we really can't afford the luxury of babying these little tremblers and leading them by the hand towards sanity anymore. There are real problems to deal with.

Maybe we could achieve full employment by getting them all a wet nurse. Then we could get on with the adult stuff.

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 2 years ago

not a bad Idea. I'd think that health insurance could pay for that too.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

You can't kill what is undead! They are Zombies!

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

No GK I disagree, killing the Republican party should NOT be Occupy Wall Street's goal.

Our revolution cannot be based on the negativism that we would need to "kill" the Repubs as our goal

We need to build unity/community while reaching and educating the still unaware because that is what will be needed for the tremendous task we have undertaken. Because out of this UNITY will come POWER.

A natural by-product of this undoubtedly will be the Repubs becoming more crippled or irrelavant as people realize how they, as well as the Dems have betrayed us.

As more and more people join us, and realize there is power in that unity, they will become emboldened as courage will beget courage. It's called a 'slow radicalization,' and it is something that many of us have experienced here as we learned how deep our problems are, and how evil the system is.

All along our journey, there will be defeats, and victories from both within, and outside the rotten political system

But make no mistake about it, our ultimate victory will only come when a critical mass of people are out in the streets demanding change...only then will we have the sea change we so desparately need. See Montreal. See Iceland. See Civil Rights struggle. See Norway/Sweden in the early 20th century, etc., etc., etc.


[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

You know, I really agree with what you are saying here, but I have seen this country go down the toilet on a wave of false ideology created consciously by the Repubican Party and their "think tanks" over the course of my lifetime, and I'm angry about it, really angry.

That anger may be of limited importance, but sometimes I feel the need to just say it.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

GK...we all have anger in us, because of the situation we find ourselves in. I'm fucking pissed off that these bastards did this to us, and if we are not successful, my kids are looking at a life of servitude, and worse. I'm so disappointed in my country, the country my Dad immigrated to from Sweden. It sucks. The land of the fucking free and.....what a joke! Please don't mistake what you may view as a mild-mannered approach to our struggle with a lack of 'fire' or resolution on my part. The way that we choose to progress this struggle is very important.

What you are proposing though is just a remnant,and a continuation of that old Left/Right struggle that was instrumental in getting us here in the first place. That is one of the main ways we were contollable. And to try and squeeze this noble struggle into it belittles it.

In the final analysis we have no one to blame but ourselves for taking our eye off the ball, and we did that quite a while ago

The trick is to channnel that anger into something constructive, and positive, not just for the sake of being positive, but for the sake of building unity, hence power

I don't suspect we will ever agree on this GK, and I'm not saying there isn't room to keep the pressure on in a plethora of ways from different groups, but for one of Occupy Wall Street's goals to be the extinction of the Repub party...well that is not a winning strategy, but like I said the crippling of that party may well be a by-product...side effect, whatever the word is, as people become more and more aware, and to a degree we are starting to witness that now. Aren't we?


[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

I have NEVER doubted your fire or resolution. It is that, and your obvious integrity that I have always admired about you, and I must say this - I have never seen anyone's communication improve the way yours has on this forum. That alone speaks volumes about your fire and commitment.

We have gone round and round over this issue, and I suppose we just have to realize that we can't come to agreement here, but I don't think that matters, we otherwise seem to share so many convictions. And yes, I do really believe we are starting to see the turning of the tide. When all is over we will share a beer in Val Hala.

Peace Odin -


[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

Thanks GK, and I have never doubted your commitment to OUR struggle either. I must say that it was very frustrating to me in my early months on this forum as my "communication" skills were severely lacking. I simply could not express myself the way that I wanted. I have worked hard at improving those skills, but even now I'm sure it takes me longer than most people to say what I want.

"Share a beer in Val Halla?"...I want my own pint. Does SAS, or Alaska Air fly there? Too many hard-headed people there. ;-).... how 'bout having those lagers at a Church Street Pub outside on a.. Warm Bright Sunny Day.... instead?!

Peace & Unity GK


[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (24113) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

It helps to voice - and to others most especially. Everyone holds way to much - inside - unexpressed.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Yes, and as far as it goes, Occupy IS unalligned. I couldn't change that if I wanted to, and I am not advocating that we should be alligned with any political party, but by the same token, if we have certain convictions concerning the democratic process, how it works, and how we as individuals believe we must respond to it, should we censor ourselves . . .and if so, why?

In whose interest is it in that we censor ourselves?

I'm not implying for one moment that that is Odin's intention. I feel he is at least as true to the aims of this movement as anyone. What I simply want us to see is that there are ways certain thoughts become unexpressible, through a kind of miasma of group think, created by those who want to control us.

We are all victims of this - some of the time, to some degree - and I think we should consider that.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (24113) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Occupy - is brilliant - in that non-aligned category - if I may be so bold. They do not instigate - but they do provide a place to hook-up. And so present a very nebulous target - while providing news center as well as a place to discuss and plan actions.

Thoughts and actions should never be limited in the effort to create a better world for all - that being said - violence should always be denounced - we want to get past that negative BS and move forward embracing all.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Well Said.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (24113) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Thank you GK - I really appreciate your comment - more so that you found my comment to have - validity.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

More than welcome, my friend.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (24113) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Awwww shucks {:-]) - keep-on keeping-on.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 2 years ago

Many republicans are getting less conservative, some compromising on immigration maybe, Tea party people kicked off of key committees, Palin fired from Fox. But there is still "an ugly strain of GOP racism" Powell, and then there is this,


So while individual republicans ARE getting less conservative I think only some party leaders are evolving. and theextremists still have a way to go. We will help them.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

The 'pickle' the Republicans are in is amusing to me. The irony is ..... one of the parties that was so intent on dividing us is now facing an "existential" threat as your link pointed out, and as I had implied.

They are no longer able to carry out their "neo Confederate" agenda in the face of demographic trends that go well into the future. These trends combined with a more enlighted populace who 'reckon' that freedom, and one's ability to choose his/her own life-style cannot be separable.

All this will cause a huge split in their party, and most likely it will be Northeast Republicans that will lead the charge, as already they have to be more liberal if they expect to get elected. I also predict that we will see Grover Norquist, and his gang's strangle-hold on the Repubs loosen greatly in the face of all this.

Like I said for the first time in decades, we are seeing the whole political spectrum move left. And we in Occupy can take an enormous amount of credit for that. That shift though should not be justifcation for our/OWS involvement in the rotten political system, as the corporate-owned Democrats will never take us to the Promise Land either. This news just serves as a great barometer of our success in araisng the awareness of people. That's all! Our struggle still boils down to right vs. wrong. It's just our playing field is not quite as up-hill as it was. Once again, that's all!

We.... Occupy Wall Street must remain the radical group pushing from the outside if we ever want to see a sea change in the way our political, and financial institutions are run, and that quantum change should include setting us on a path to a different economic system that breeds sustainability.

Good link, thanks.


[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 2 years ago

Agreed. Occupy should be the radical ideal in the distance. Along with Chris Hedges, Chomsky, R. Wolff, Cornel West and others we must represent that which I suppose may never come to pass. (Maybe, who knows?) Neither ofthe2 parties, or any pol really embrace the totality of the ideal vision we espouse. I expect we will continue moving the politics of the country closer to us. I will embrace all small success and seek to build on it. But the Dems are still mired in the right turn they took 30 years ago. The repubs have begun to realize their self destructive policy positions. Norquist is a good example. Repubs allowed a tax rate increase on the 1% for the1st time in 20 years. He was defied, he tried to claim the increase didn't amount to a violation of the pledge he imposed on repubs but he was broken then, and will continue to be. One small success. I embrace it, and seek to build on it, because it ain't enough. We need more tax rate increases on the wealthy. The battle for the ideal will never be over.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

We are in total agreement, hence i like you. ;-)

"The battle for the ideal will never be over." Nor should it ever be


[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 2 years ago

Thanks. It's mutual. I hope we can like each other even if we aren't in TOTAL agreement, because it is not likely we can always be.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

I maintain friendships on here with many people that I disagree with, but whom I respect. I expect it will be the same with you, even if you do have the gall to disagree with me on something. Lol ...just kidding on the latter

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 2 years ago

LOL. fair enough. Happy trails. Seeya 'round.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

Please, please... please... the American/US "whole political spectrum" has not, NOT moved left. That's absurd, wrong and dangerously misleading!

All we have done is dodge a bullet, or nasty dirty bomb, because enough of us VOTED Dem that the Cons couldn't steal the election without getting caught! And they tried BIG TIME!!

If the "large number" of the posters on this board had their way and successfully encouraged the electorate to vote third party or not at all, we'd be talking about a constitutional amendment to make Corporations People and equal players in government, abolishing the EPA and cutting more taxes for the rich. A very dirty bomb!!

There is no movement to the left in any of this, just a resistance to insanity! I hope people understand this and not believe the swill espoused here.

Protest is great to wake The People up, TO VOTE! But has to be for a viable party. Let's work on Instant Runoff Voting! So that third parties can be viable! Let's push Dems to be more progressive. Let's make Boner's whimper true, and put RepubliCons in the dust bin of history!

Believe it or not, despite the very tiny number of people this Board reaches, there are Covert and Overt RepubliCon operatives that would like/die for to use this board to sabotage a MOVE TO THE LEFT.

Vigilance and Unity!!

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

outside the political system

You are not alone with that.

I don't think that the Republican party is going to become any more liberal than it ever was. The concept of freedom to these folks is no police force, no medical care, no firefighters and no public education. I am more apt to listen to someone else's pov when they have the capacity to really sit down and focus.

What they will do is continue to make promises that they know are not constitutional in an effort to garner cash and then piss off that group of people. Remember the betrayal (so claimed by the religious right) during Bush II. In order for them to become liberal or socially liberal for their target groups they will have to reach them through religion. It will have the same effect. Secondly, it would require an investment in public programs and unless they can manipulate it for theft of public funds--it won't happen.

By the same token, I don't think the Democrats are going to become any more liberal either. I will not become conciliatory until the issues are addressed. It is easier to take an issue and find representation from all sides. Say, something like stop and frisk in a local area or issues within the criminal justice system or something where there can be honest discourse. That means that you aren't fighting the Koch heads with fictitious numbers and ignorance spread on fear.

Odin, you are an excellent, compassionate older white dude. Here is the deal: Even if what constitutes as news (or opinion pieces) omit this piece of knowledge, most of the rest of the population knows.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

Thanks GF. The Republican party is in a real pickle now as their main constituency of older brain-dead white dudes is dying off. Their appeal to the younger generation with the exception of the religious right zealots is dwindling. All this combined with all the people struggling to survive, and with the people who have been screwed by our rotten system, they are in big trouble. And in a society that is becoming more and more multi-cultural and tolerant of different life-styles, they have no choice but to soften their platform or become more liberal. I am not saying that they will ever appeal to most of us here, but what i am saying is that for the first time in decades, the whole political spectrum is moving to the left. Being outside of the system pressuring it, we/Occupy Wall Street can take credit for that.

I regard both parties as being toxic, and irreparable, and neither will ever take us where we want to go....where we must go. One of the main purposes of my post though was simply to show that the turmoil within the Republican party is a good barometer of our success. That's all.

Northeast Republicans especially are finding it more and more difficult to fit into that party that is living in the unreal world of yesterday. And there was a time when self proclaimed liberal Repubs were in office in the NE.

Considering much of the pain from the 2008 melt-down occurred in red states which have a high degree of people on public assistance (higher than the blue states), they too are, or will be turning their backs on the repubs. So one of my other points was, many of these people are 'reachable' in our struggle. We just gotta get them off that old left vs. right paradigm, and onto the right vs. wrong one. To do that we should maybe follow the advice of the editor, Thilo Schaefer of cooperatively owned La Marea magazine in Spain who said, "The strategy this time isn't about to shout about injustice like another loud, angry leftist voice singing to an audience of activists, but to prove and make the point with facts - to reach a broader public." In any event, how we go about reaching out to that "broader public" is something that we have to work on.

I do very much appreciate the recalcitrant spirit that you bring to this movement, and am always a bit wary of catching your wrath ;-). I have recently noticed though that you haven't told any of the people who piss you off to go buy a blow-up doll in quite a while. You are not getting 'soft' or too "concilatory" on us now, R U GF? lol


[-] 4 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

I believe one of the most progressive, and logical, ideas to come out of this movement is by viewing an issue as "right vs. wrong," something you and others have pointed out on more than one occasion. Just about all the other 'labels' you can think of (right vs. left, red vs. blue, black vs. white, Rep. vs. Dem., rich vs. poor) have been used quite effectively to keep us divided and bickering. Of all the 'opposites' that may exist in this country, THAT is the very one the 'Powers That Be' can absolutely not use against us. It's brilliant in its simplicity, and if we can incorporate that into our messages, it's the one that will resonate most effectively across the entire American spectrum.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

The left vs. right battle is what has been used to keep us divided for a long time, and it is not a winning strategy for us, nor is it accurate.

This isn't about left vs right, rather it is about right vs. wrong, and what has been going on in this country for the past thiry plus years is terribly wrong and both parties share blame in this.

Every Sunday, i go to a friends for dinner with all of her family. The son-in-law, and i used to have really heated left vs. right battles., me defending the former, him the latter ....all this before I realized what was going on. I do miss those lively arguements as we no longer have them now


[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

That's been one of the few downsides to this forum. Too many members continue to use such divisive labels. If this forum wanted to be truly progressive everyone involved should try to go the extra mile and resist the habit as much as possible. I believe even in discussions that are exclusively political in nature it can be avoided to a large extent (but not completely of course) because even in political talks it still boils down to right vs. wrong more than anything else.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

Agreed, those divisive labels have been thrown around here like fish have been at Pike's Place Market. ;-) I do notice that it isn't quite as bad now compared to how it was before the Presidential election when the hacks ran wild. It will probably get worse again before the mid-term elections. Hopefully, I'll be on vacation or something then, and they can have their go at trying to co-opt this movement. I'm counting on you gnomunny to keep up the good fight during my voluntary absence.



[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Unless one of my frequent voluntary absences coincides with yours. Then what will the forum do? How will it possibly survive? ;-)

Hilarious YT clip. I hear catching those fish isn't as easy as it looks. A bit slippery, aren't they? Anyway, it looks like everyone was having a great time.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

That fitting, but admittedly corny 'flying fish' analogy just 'flew' into my head. lol Those people were not only having a good time, they were probably supporting a local business too.

I think the world will keep spinning, and the forum will go on w/o us, and besides there are a couple kindred spirits here who could rise to the occasion, hence hold the fort down if we leave at the same time.


[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Of course they can. But at any rate, it's late, so I'm out.

Until tomorrow, then.


[+] -4 points by oldJim (-96) 2 years ago

Unless one of my frequent voluntary absences coincides with yours. Then what will the forum do? How will it possibly survive? ;-)

The forum's already dead. It's not because it's getting a certain number of posts unrelated to what Occupy is that it's alive. It's not fulfilling it's goal, so it's dead. It does not help Occupy in any way. It actually hurts the protest by presenting a picture of something that isn't Occupy. No one here actually knows what Occupy is about.

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

It was a fucking joke, 'oldJim.'

By the way, thanks for responding. I was waiting for that PM but I believe you answered my question quite well here.

Fuck off, Thrasymaque. I regret ever giving you props in the first place.

[-] -3 points by oldJim (-96) 2 years ago

There was nothing mean intended in my reply, just stating the obvious truth. I am not Thrasymaque. I don't have any idea who he is. Not sure why you would get angry and start swearing.

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

I'll bite one time 'oldJim' and then I'm (almost) done with you. I'm absolutely convinced you are Thrasy, based on your comment above. It's EXACTLY what he would say, word for word. And by the slim chance you're not, you must be his clone. Which means we have no more use for you than we do for him.

[-] 0 points by oldJim (-96) 2 years ago

Republicans are idiots. They caused their own problems. Let them die.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 2 years ago

I wouldn't go that far, but I think we are watching the party scramble to reposition with as little change of agenda as possible. We will see if their cave on immigration improves their showing with Latin voters. I don't think so. I would support any republican policy that serves the 99%. I just haven't seen any. I say let them LOSE!

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

That's it, "we are watching the party scramble to reposition istself [with] as little change of agenda as possible.


[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Money out of politics. A new system! Iceland inching towards direct democracy.


We need to actively push a small scale test of direct democracy. Let's find a small progressive town that might be willing to try eliminating their town council and implement govt by referendum maybe with no parties)

[-] 0 points by oldJim (-96) 2 years ago

Let them die was meant figuratively.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 2 years ago

I assumed. Just wanted to delineate the difference. I haven't met a lot of violent people here.

[-] 2 points by freakyfriday (179) 2 years ago

Amen, but you know others are going to call you a troll for spewing the 'false dichotomy' theory. I am glad to see that more Americans are waking up to all this divisiveness that the PTB sow to keep the 99% fractured.

Even something as simple as money out of politics alliance with Tea Party is disparaged on this website. There are some basic issues 'we' all can agree on.

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 2 years ago

If repubs would admit these truths it would represent real movement away from extremist conservatism.


[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

I've been called a troll before, ironically from some people that I viewed as trolls myself. That's OK...I can take the heat. MY shoulders are bigger than my belly, so far anyway.

I remember years ago when there were protests against some of the provisions of the Patriot Act in New England. They definitely took place in New Hampshire, but in other states as well. Anyway people who had a long history of loving their freedoms, and who's state motto is Live Free Or Die got together to pass resolutions on a town-wide basis that condemnd this egregious assault on their civil liberties, their freedoms. Protests were even organized where conservatives and liberals marched side by side. I don't know if these people ever went out afterward and became buddy/buddy and swilled pints of lager together at the local pub, BUT they were able to put aside their differences for a while anyway..... for the Greater Good.

And I'm not saying that they or we will ever agree on everything, hardly, BUT having a government that answers to the will of its people, and their love of their freedoms..... and not to the special interests of banks and corporations...well that need transcends the left vs. right paradigm.


[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

If your "right" is making Corporations people, then there is a problem. Left means something that does not include Corps as people. So does Dem and Lib and Prog!!

If no one else will, I'm blowing this weak and deceptive house of cards down!!

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

You must be missing the point, Smith. Number one, I hate labels. Labels divide. And in my comment "right" means "correct," not the opposite of "left." Get it now?

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I too hate labels, as I feel boxed him by them. Instead, I go with my heart, and for the Greatest Good. The trouble we have had for a long time is the GG is almost as bad as the worse of the two parties as they have been deceitful in convincing us that they represent our interests.


[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

No, I'm with ya, "right"/wrong! Still labels, though, and a ridiculous path to follow. Adjectives, good!

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

This dumb ass (wsmith) doesnt realize that all of his Dem candidates just accepted massive amounts of corporate money, that they had their own SuperPACs and that the DNC took a 20 million dollar bribe from the banks for their convention.

If we dont fix education, people like this are going to keep reproducing and take over the world. Ever see "Idiocracy"?

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Yeah, the movie with Luke Wilson? The only thing that kept that movie from being truly hilarious was how true the possibility is. Assuming we even last another 500 years, but that's another story.

WSmith is solidly trapped inside that box. There's no hope for him. You can tell by how badly he misinterpreted my statement. He sees the word "right" and automatically thinks it's political. Hmmm, now that I re-read his comment, he almost sounds like another forum member trapped inside that box. Could it be????

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago


[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago



[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

Join me in urging GK to stay, please.

[-] 2 points by oldJack (14) 2 years ago

GK repeatedly threatens to quite this forum. He did it three times before. It's just a cry for attention. Don't worry, he's not going anywhere.


[-] 2 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

Yes he does (quit not quite). It's interesting that you have the archive so handy. How is that considering your apparent newness? I hope your right.

[-] 2 points by oldJack (14) 2 years ago

I'm right. He just wants you to worry a bit and "persuade" him to come back. It makes him feel wanted. He'll be back in full swing in a few days. If you shed a big tear for him he might come back sooner. Start a thread called "We love GK - Don't Go!" and he'll be back instantly.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

Done, let's see.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

So what's your deal?

[-] 1 points by oldJack (14) 2 years ago

Just an observer.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

Put out!

[-] 1 points by oldJack (14) 2 years ago

I'm not gay. Sorry.

[-] 2 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

Why do you righties always go there?

Tell your story make your case, give your political opinion!?

[-] 2 points by oldJack (14) 2 years ago

Why do you always make assumptions?

I'm a socialist. I don't believe in US politics, because of the duopoly, of religious infiltration, of republicans, and because most Americans aren't educated properly. The future of politics lies in other countries.

The big problem with occupiers is that they can't debate issues. If you disagree they call you a righty, even if you're more on the left than they are. This site is all about prematurely labeling users into a certain box and then insulting them over and over again. There are no debates here. It's either insults or high fives. You know nothing about me and you have already started boxing me as a righty. It's sad.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"I'm a socialist" ?!!! Right !! Like I'm the Pope's bastard love child, lolol !


One day 'oldJack' and then one day 'oldJim' ,

Same Old TrashyManqué^ - too much 'Jim Beam' ?!

Can't keep away from OWS and that's just too sad -

But STOP signing as others* as That's Really Bad !!


{^ http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-love-gk-dont-go/#comment-921981 }

[* http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-love-gk-dont-go/#comment-921944 ]

temet nosce - anguis in herba ...

[-] 1 points by oldJack (14) 1 year ago

Whether you believe me or not is of no importance. We shouldn't even be discussing political affiliations on this site. Occupy should accept anyone who wants to be part of the protest in it's ranks. By accusing people of being on the right it accomplishes nothing accept that it turns people away from us.


[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

Assumptions or observations?

Socialists aren't homophobic, not the ones here.

"I'm a socialist. I don't believe in US politics" ??

Corporations and the rich are with YOU, they believe in socialism for them and capitalism for us.

Where are you from, where do you speak from?

US politics and education are "Unattended." What do you expect?

First, almost no one here is an "occupier," we use this wonderful board, and some occupiers who allowed the media to frame the entire OWS movement as a Woodstock Reenactment, ruined it for all of us.

Second, many on this board are political newbies, lightweights, or saboteurs; and can't debate politics, left, right or center.

But many can. We have a pretty good chaotic democracy going on here!!!

[-] 1 points by oldJack (14) 2 years ago

I'm not homophobic. Why did you make that assumption? Most of my male friends are gay. You asked me to "put out", and I replied with a joke. Sorry my friend, but I'm not interested in debates with people who make one assumption after the other. It's boring.


[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

Join in my concern about this, wouldja.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Great post! Unity + Relentless Engagement = Enlightenment.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

Thanks GK....no 'squabble' from me on that. :-)


[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

N ~ O no!!!!!

[-] 1 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 2 years ago

Where I live it's Occupy the Hood. They address issues specific to their community. I wouldn't worry about how differentt groups percieve Occupy. Everybody gets it.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

"Occupy the Hood," as in neighborhood.... brotherhood.... .motherhood ....fatherhood..., and maybe sisterhood. They're cool. My first encounter with Occupy The Hood was at Riverside Church on MLK Day 2012. The fiery speeches...the music...the poetry... the dancing, and the camaraderie was great. That day/night which began with a march from Zuccotti /Liberty Park, 7-8 mi. downtown is my fondest memory in Occupy.

I gotta ask you: Do you see The Hood melding together with the rest of Occupy in Milwaukee. Although quite some time ago, I read where there were tensions in different cities, which I could understand. Is that still prevalent? Just wondering.


[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

Don't confuse SURVIVAL INSTINCTS with evolution or compassion.

GOP Machiavellian 101: the end justifies any means!

Zombies never learn or change.

"Only when the corrupt elite are threatened (economically) by an AWAKENED critical mass of people who are out in the streets..." AND VOTE!! "will we achieve our goal."

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 2 years ago

When they have truly moved on the womens issues we can say they are 'more liberal'


[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 2 years ago

I know you are right. The repubs will come around on womens issues eventually. Not much progress yet but the equal pay & violence against women act will be voted on again soon. We gotta pressure all politicians including democrats & especially republicans.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

Cons will never come around on women's issues! Aren't you a dude?

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 2 years ago

I am, does that matter? Repubs WILL come around or they will continue getting battered. They see the writing on the wall. They are struggling now to somehow counter the damage done by their obvious anti women, anti minority, anti immigrant, anti lgbt, anti college aid, anti elderly earned benefits. And so on, and so on.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

Well if you think so I'd suggest holding your breath.

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 2 years ago

If I think repubs will come around or continue getting battered I should hold my breath? What other possible outcome exists? Why is breath holding necessary? Do you understand that I am saying that the repub party as it is, is over. The whole conservative ideology has been thoroughly discredited. Occupy represents the opposite of that philosophy, and we are moving the country slowly away from trickle down, weak regs, & war mongering. I think perhaps we've had a miscommunication.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

Do you understand what YOU are saying??? Look I wish it was so, but just declaring it, doesn't make it so. Do you get that we have been here before? Just think Zombies!! You shoot them, you kill them, and as you are celebrating your victory, oops, they eat your brains!!!

The miscommunication is the notion that Cons have changed, that they won't come back, that they are defeated and that some how OWS did it. Sorry, it's the people who VOTED DEM who saved us from the Zombie apocalypse and OWS was barely a memory in that!! I wish it had more (positive) influence, I did my best to help, but no one NO ONE listened.

It's just one after another of you freaks!!! Is this the new attack??

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 2 years ago

I know the repubs ain't dead yet. I know the most extreme of them took a major hit. I know Dem voters hurt repubs most of all. I know that Occupy has moved the country left by changing the national discourse, I know occupy has emboldened many progressive groups, The right will never die but we can defeat them on election day, if Occupy grows and continues the valuable work of informing the people, and encouraging all progressives to protest (with or without occupy) to petition, to advertize, to fight for change that benefits the 99%.

I am not attacking you. I think we agree (but for your low opinion of occupy perhaps). But I am an occupier, so my opinion should be obvious.


[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

Yes I fully realize that it is just their "SURVIAVAL INSTINCTS" that have kicked in, and that they have not had an epiphany in their way of thinking, or in their morality.

It will be interesting to see the new narrative that the lobbyists will no doubt write to account for this change. I am sure that they are working very hard on it right now.....complete with catch phrases for their politicians to repeat over and over and over again.

As the cracks in the Repub party get bigger and bigger (and they will), more Red Hand (an epoxy that fills in cracks) will be needed....until they finally run out.

And because I have a lobbyist in my extended family I do know that they are very hard workers.


[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

And how many peeps will fall for it?

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

Hopefully fewer and fewer "peeps will fall for it", as the new narrative will have to become less and less based in reality, hence more people will see through it.


[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

Didn't faze them with tricky Dick, Raygun, Bush or Cheney!

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

No true, the difference now is the generation who supported them is 'on the way out' to put it euphemistically, hence to a large degree their way of thinking has become irrelavant as their numbers dwindle.

They have been replaced by their children and grandchildren who have a far more enlightened view of the world.

That, together with the fact that Hispanics are the most populous and fastest growing minority, I think it is safe to say that the future does not look bright for them.


[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

It would be nice if you were right. Oh, wouldn't it be nice! We make some progress and the 1%-Cons just capitulate and give in to what is right and good and humane!!!

Everybody thought the same dreamy changes were in store after Watergate Dick. Then Iran-Contra, Trickle-Down Raygun. Then Bush- (9/11, Enron, Iraq, WS) -Cheney.

So never underestimate the capacity of the American electorate to forget, be duped and/or disengage. Or just pout as in 2010 allowing a horde of Tea-Potty fools to seize federal and state government, for which we still suffer today.

People seem to have forgotten that religious Hispanics fleeing "communist" leaning regimes were primarily conservative, it just took a couple decades plus of GOP double-crossing for them to realize who their real friends were.

Nevertheless, the GOP has died and gone to hell many times before, only to return to live, destroy and kill like the Zombies they are, to fulfill the ambitions and greed of the 1% masters they serve!!

Unity and Vigilance!!

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

I am not "dream[ing], " and I have made it clear that the scenario that I foresee is not goiing to come about because the Repubs have suddenly become "good and humane."

You seem to take delight in creating a faux supposition of what I said and then argue against it

Yes we Americans are stupid, and easily "duped" or led astray. I've read Chomsky's Media Control

I have no doubt the GOP will bounce back in some shape or form

As in life, politics is ever-changing, but with your little history lesson aside, are you suggesting that Hispanics will be voting en masse for Republicans anytime soon? If so, let me take time out to laugh.

Your preachy condascending tone may make you feel good and right, but it has the tendency to make you look like an ass

"Unity and Vigilance!!".....we're in agreement there.


[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

I'll risk looking like an condescending ass, if you check your politically Pollyanna naivete, which smacks of covert Con both-same campaigning. I'm not here to hook up or create falsities or mislead.

You said, that the RW "way of thinking has become irrelavant as their numbers dwindle." This is what we thought about the Vietnam Era, yet the same generation that protested it were lined up around blocks for Flags and "Support Our Troops" signs for their SUVs to out Patriot Act friends and neighbors going into Afghanistan and Iraq, and then they reelected the frontmen who facilitated it. They were deceived.

I'll defend your right to speak your mind as I have, I believe in free speech, right or wrong (except outright sliming and violence). But I'm not going to let misconceptions go unchallenged. And I couldn't care less about ad hominem attacks, but they are Con Zombie MO.

And, no, Odin, I did not say "Hispanics will be voting en masse for Republicans," as is plain to see above ("faux supposition"), I said they used to because they had traditional "conservative" views that Cons disguised themselves with. They were deceived.

Deception is the only way RepubliCons succeed. And their history, although well documented, is serially forgotten and/or disguised.

Unity and Vigilance! Indeed!

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 2 years ago

Let's get one thing clear Smith. This "Polyanna" boy is no kid, Nor is he "naieve..,"and he most likely has had far more life experiences... in far more places in the world than you ever will have, and probably with far fewer regrets in life to boot.

My efforts to make this a better world began long before Occupy showed up on the scene. Those efforts have included, but were not limited (by far) to answering many right wing hate mongers in letters which appeared in new-papers in most of the major towns/cities in Vermont.... and New Jersey.

I have expended much shoe leather in some real shitty, fucking weather to further OUR struggle along, and have spent a fair bit of money in my 40 plus trips to NYC to attend OWS meetings, protests, and other events, and I have come close to being arrested twice. This is no fucking game for me!

I'm not asking for a pat on the back, nor am i trying to shut your voice down, but I definitely do not need or deserve the shit you dole out

Your condadascending attitutde, and the faux suppositions that you needed to advance your arguement started right from your first sentence

There are other people who diasagree with me here on how this movement should move forward, as you well know.

The difference is, they are not nearly as obnoxious as you, and by being so, you are doing little to promote UNITY.


[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

Avoidance, self aggrandizement, righteous indignation, recriminations, as well as ad hominem attacks, are all Con Zombie MO. Your Lib/Prog street cred is swirling the bowl, and your adolescent insolence does not bestow the seasoned veteran you portray. Tell me you're just a very high strung neo-anarchist/pseudo-liberal (or covert Con) and be done with it, because me thinks thou doth protest way too much!

But until you start sliming or advocating violence, I'll continue to fight for and defend your right to free speech, no matter what they say about you.

I'm not being obnoxious to you, I'm just telling you the truth and you think it's obnoxious.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Methinks perhaps Smith protesteth too much?

Could it be you, Smith, are presenting yourself as a backer of one party, while by being overbearing, intollerant, condescending and obnoxious actually working to slander that party, as an agent for another?

You tell me.

The plot sickens, and sickens, and sickens.

Truth is, I don't care if that is true or not because the way you have just spoken to one of the most respected members of this movement is, if not tretchery, simply an obscene level of unwarrented arrogance.

This is why I can only take this forum in limited doses anymore. There are some people who would sell their own mothers here, if only for a little ego rush. . .

I'm out of here again for the night . . . my gorge rises at it all.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

COME ON PEOPLE join me in telling/urging/ begging/commanding that Gypsy King needs to stay because we need GYPSY KING!!

[-] -1 points by oldJack (14) 2 years ago

This is the fourth time GyspyKing threatens to leave the forum. It's just a cry for attention. He always comes back. He's addicted to this place. Don't worry.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

OLDJACK what your story??

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

OK, what's with you??

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

Sorry to hear that.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Man, are there not enough trolls on this forum at our throats that we have to be at each other's too????

I've tried to promote unity on this forum for quite awhile, and perhaps people's collective frustration is making them turn on each other. Maybe I've just had a lifetime of strife, and I wish that strife could somehow resolve itself, if not into some sense of kinship than at least into some kind of mutual respect.

Maybe it's really me - that I've simply had enough . . . enough . . . enough of . . .

-"Ah love, let us be true to one another, For the world which seems to lie before us like a land of dreams, So various, so beautiful, so new, Hath neither love, nor light, nor peace, nor certitude, nor help for pain, And we are here as on a darkling plain, Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, Where ignorant armies clash by night."

I apologize to you . . . and to Odin for apologizing to you . . .and to myself for feeling I must make this apology . . . and to God for having had the arrogance to think I could ever change Anything on this godforsaken planet.

I'm outta here again.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Why is it that oldJack (Tr@shy) and WSmith both don't have reply links on all 4 of their comments here? Quite a coincidence . . .

If that isn't true when you look at it, rest assurred iy is true now.

And now the tiresome GK bashing begins again.

Jesus, I should take this shit as a complement, but it's really all too old for words.

On the basis of this I retract my reluctant appology to my old "friend" jiffysquid, alias WSmith, alias thrasymache, but I will let it stand for refference. For what it's worth people, Tr@shy does not represent the Democratic Party. He is alligned with . . . other entities.

If anyone thinks whatever I have to say is of any value, you can talk to me on my blog. I'm just sick of this shit here . . . again.


[-] -1 points by oldJack (14) 2 years ago

This is your fourth flounce from the forum! You always threaten to leave, ask us to shed a tear because you'll be gone, and then come back a few days later. It's sweet. See you in a few days then.

[-] -1 points by WSmith (1579) from Cornelius, OR 2 years ago

GK, we need you! You are the heart and soul of this board's real effectiveness, which is too often distracted by chasing Unicorns or shunning democracy!

Only you can transcend the political with the ideology persuasively!

Don't go!